December 12, 2024 • 48 mins
Summary
In this conversation, Kathy Barnette engages with Abigail DeJarnatt and Allison Paris about the intersection of faith and politics, the importance of truth in culture, and the role of the church in society. They discuss the challenges faced by Gen Z Christians, the need for boldness in expressing faith, and the significance of engaging in difficult conversations about cultural issues. The discussion emphasizes the importance of biblical values in public policy and the necessity for believers to take an active role in shaping the culture around them.
Learn more about Counteract USA at https://counteractusa.org/
Takeaways
Faith and politics should not be compartmentalized; they are intertwined.
The search for identity and purpose is a universal struggle, especially among young people.
Cultural norms often push Christians to apologize for their beliefs, but truth should be boldly proclaimed.
The church must engage in societal issues and not shy away from difficult conversations.
There is a growing hunger for truth and hope among young people, evidenced by increased Bible sales.
Believers are called to influence public opinion and engage in the political process.
The faith vote is often overlooked, but it is crucial for the conservative movement.
Disconnection from biblical values leads to societal decline and confusion.
Christians must be prepared to defend their beliefs with gentleness and respect.
Hope and purpose are found in a relationship with Jesus, not in cultural trends.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Cultural Context
02:49 Faith and Politics: Bridging the Gap
06:10 The Role of Truth in Culture
09:09 The Search for Identity and Purpose
11:51 Counteracting Cultural Norms
15:02 The Church's Role in Society
17:52 Engaging in Difficult Conversations
20:46 The Importance of the Faith Vote
24:00 Conserving Biblical Values
26:53 The Need for Bold Leadership
29:58 The Consequences of Disconnection from Truth
33:12 The Call to Action for Believers
35:53 Hope Amidst Cultural Challenges
39:01 Conclusion and Encouragement
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello everyone, welcome back to another edition of the Kathy Barnett Show.
I'm gonna jump right in with my two very lovely guests, Abigail DeJarnett, did I pronouncethat correctly?
That's great.
Awesome, and Allison Paris.
How are you ladies?
Doing good, thank you for having us.
(00:23):
Yes, thank you so much for taking some time out.
I am new.
to counteract USA.
have an assistant, Daniel.
He talks about you ladies all the time.
And we were recently at an event outside of Washington DC, C &P.
And he kept saying, I want you to meet, I want you to meet.
(00:45):
We did not get a chance to meet, but I'm so very grateful that you decided to come ontothe podcast because as I've read more about what it is that you do, I love it.
It's exactly, I believe, where we find ourselves in this culture, in this culture where wehave made gods with our own hands and now a culture that is requiring everyone to bow to
(01:11):
those gods that they created with their own hands and the pressure that is on many of uswho want to engage in our culture, who see the need to engage in our culture, but
there's a whole set of rules, a whole set of virtue signaling that has to be done, a wholelot of bowing when you speak about a variety of issues.
(01:36):
And then when I see, when I read about you, when I read about your organization, you areunapologetically Christians.
You believe in Jesus, it is not an afterthought, you lead with it versus apologizing,which is very difficult in the culture.
and specifically in the culture of politics.
(01:57):
So I'm gonna just throw it out there.
One, how do you bridge that gap?
Understanding that this is the culture in which we're living in and yet being unapologeticabout who you are and wanting to be a part of the conversation.
Absolutely.
Well, both of us, when we were growing up, this was not what we set out to do.
(02:17):
We did not set out to be in the world of politics, but...
we did grow up as Gen Z Christians in the 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, and then 2020 era wherewe saw our generation fall apart, especially our generation of Christians walk away from
the Lord completely.
And as the church was silent, our generation continued to struggle.
(02:40):
And so that was what first clued us into something is seriously wrong.
And these issues that we're being told are these cultural and political issues.
are actually very spiritual and the answers that our generation was looking for are foundfirst and foremost in the Word of God.
The hope that they're searching for is in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And so if we as believers, as the church, aren't the ones speaking into the conversation,well, how can we expect anything to get better?
(03:07):
So for us, when we began all of this in college, it was never a matter of, and I think wetalked about this at the beginning, we would see these conversations about how do we
balance faith and politics?
For us, it was never a matter of balancing faith and politics.
It wasn't God and country.
was Jesus over everything.
And when we bring everything into submission to Him and what He says is best and right andtrue, well, then everything better as a result.
(03:32):
If your policy reflects the truth of the Word of God, it's going to be better policythat's objectively better for all people because things tend to work better when they're
according to design, according to the way that the designer intended them to be.
I love that.
Allison Alley, were you were you going to say something?
Yeah, honestly, it reminds me of a story So a couple years ago when we were both still inschool We had a counteract night when Abby came back from one for classes and she said hey
(03:57):
guys I've been thinking about this thing and she had been tabling on campus and havingpro-life conversations and she said I'm very convicted and you can you can take the story
if you want but basically As Christians and a lot of times I know I've done it and I'veseen it where you kind of caveat or apologize for being a Christian
saying like, well, I know this is like my beliefs, but because I'm a Christian and becauseof this, and it's like, no, it is objectively truth.
(04:22):
And if that's what you believe and you stand on that, then you need to be bold about thatand not kind of shy back from that and say, well, it's okay.
It only applies to me because I'm a Christian.
It's like, no, this is the truth.
And the most loving thing to do is, tell you that.
Yeah, that, that, that particular story, that was kind of a pivotal moment.
And I'm so glad that so many of my dear friends that have built Counteract USA
(04:43):
We're in the room for that because I was having a conversation with a classmate from oneof my public policy classes about the issue of life.
And as I was breaking down every kind of conversation, I was well versed in thatparticular topic.
I could argue it scientifically from a policy perspective, from a philosophicalperspective.
(05:03):
We were just of going around and around and around.
And then the Lord convicted me and I realized that I never told him why.
And so I stopped and I told him.
I believe this because I believe that God is the author of life.
He's like, well, I'm not a Christian.
And the Lord struck me in that moment.
And I realized, but that doesn't mean it's not true.
That doesn't mean that God didn't also create you in his image on purpose, with purpose,intentionally, with intentionality and intentional gender and corresponding sexuality.
(05:31):
You are seen and known by a God who loves you.
Wait, that's not just true for me because I'm a Christian.
It's true.
So it was kind of a game changer for us.
We realized that we couldn't.
by end the postmodernism of our culture by saying that as a Christian this is true for mebut it may not necessarily be true for you.
No, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life regardless of whether or not you personallybelieve that that is objectively true.
(05:57):
Absolutely ladies.
I too believe that there is an objective truth.
I believe his name is Jesus.
And you know and we homeschooled our kids, my husband and I.
for most of their education.
And we use classical conversation.
And there was this one little thing and I drew it out on our board, on our wall is stillthere to this day, is that God is in the center, right?
(06:23):
And there's these arrows, two directional arrows.
You have God in the center and then you have history and you have science and you haveEnglish and you have all of these different subjects and it's not compartmentalized.
God is the author of all of these things, all of these subjects, and all of those subjectspoint back to God.
(06:46):
And yet, in culture, when we show up, something that you're speaking to is that we have aten...
We've been told we need to compartmentalize our conversations.
We only have this church talk when we're at church and within four walls.
But when you step outside of those four walls, now we're told we have to adopt thelanguage of those...
(07:08):
in society, which apparently doesn't include anything of faith unless of course you wantto use God in some kind of blaspheming fashion.
But outside of that, we just don't talk about God.
We don't talk about faith.
Instead, we talk about human and humanity and the good within us, but we don't necessarilypoint to it originating.
(07:37):
from a very subjective, a very objective entity.
Absolutely.
That's actually something that we've been seeing a lot of our generation has been fed thispostmodernism this live your truth find your truth, which we're told is this this idea of
freedom and liberation and autonomy, but It's not freeing and there's this desperatepursuit of the self and identity in all of these different intersectionality points which
(08:06):
is actually Marxist in nature because it's let me identify with certain classes and groupsand these are my
identification points and intersectionality points been really the only identity that'sever going to satisfy you is identity in Christ in Christ alone.
were actually talking just this week there is a Wall Street Journal article that came outsaying that there has been I think it was a 22 percent increase in the sales of Bibles
(08:30):
this year with only a one percent increase in book sales overall.
So that's a huge huge number and a lot of the article is speaking to these
young people especially, they reference TikTok in a lot of their reporting.
But people looking for hope.
There's this rise in anxiety.
You have Jonathan Heights, the anxious generation pointing to, are just desperatelysearching and it never ever ends.
(08:57):
But what we're looking for is something absolute that was evidenced in this article.
We need to know that Jesus is the way, the truth and life.
We need that truth to influence our public policy and our cultural
conversation like you're saying there is one truth and his name is Jesus and so when we'retold to find ourselves find our truth it's much more liberating to say know the truth and
(09:22):
the truth will set you free know Jesus and he will set you free and that frees you to beinvolved to be vocal to speak into these cultural and political conversations tirelessly
endlessly because if it's about the gospel
and the Holy Spirit is your source, the truth of the word of God is your anchor.
Well, then it's his strength that we're running on.
(09:43):
We're not having to run endlessly.
I don't know if you want to add anything to that.
Yeah, I'll just say like we hear studies and we see and we just talk to people, but Gen Z,they hate when people are fake.
And I think, know, previous, yeah, previous generations are you hear from your professors?
Yeah, find your truth.
And they're like, no, like we want to know the truth and we don't, we don't want to see,you know, fake anymore.
(10:05):
want.
to know what's true.
so that's also been just super encouraging, just seeing people on that track.
I mean, well, you know, the reason why we want it's more attractive in our culture to sayyour truth, my truth, you know, everybody got their own little truth because if there is
one objective truth, well, then you have to ask, well, what does he want of me?
(10:33):
And he may want something of me that I don't want to give, right?
Like my autonomy, like I want to do what I want to do.
And I find that knowing what is right or wrong is not, is not nine out of 10 times theissue.
(10:53):
The issue is what do I do with, if this is true, what...
What does it require of me?
What am I going to have to surrender or give up or do if your truth is really the truthversus me being relative and doing what I want to do?
(11:13):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly right.
And I know that's hard, you know, I think we see it a lot again.
It's like we're kind of a selfish generation.
But, you know, in any genuine pursuit of truth.
should point back to the ultimate truth.
and just in the Bible sales, I think that's super encouraging to just see, I think Gen Zis turning and hopefully we see a big revival coming soon.
(11:36):
Yeah, that what you're saying reminds me of the end of mere Christianity when CS Lewis istalking basically about the cost of following Christ and what he does require is all of
us, all of me.
But I will tell anyone listening, whether you're Gen Z, no matter how old you are, thatwhen I truly surrendered my life fully to Christ, when I said, okay, I'm done, even as a
(12:01):
believer, when I was kind of holding on still to some semblance of control in my life, andreally when I let go was four years ago before Counteract USA started, I finally reached a
point where I realized that I was tired of being on my ship, D'Tar says.
I was tired of trying to make my own way, find my own way, live my own truth.
and giving my whole self to Jesus, letting Abigail die every single day, I have beencrucified with Christ.
(12:27):
It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me and the life I now live in theflesh.
I live by faith in the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.
And the more of myself that I give to him, the more I realize how abundant and full he is,how satisfying he is.
how it feels to fall into his arms at the end of a long day and realize that my rest andmy hope and my peace isn't in what I accomplish in a day.
(12:53):
We're in a very overachieving culture.
We're told that we are the sum of what we produce and add to society, what we achieve.
And that's exhausting.
That is exhausting.
But to say, actually, you know what?
I don't have to worry about failure because my king has already won.
I work whatever I do with all my heart is working unto the Lord and not to man.
(13:13):
And that sounds like in our culture a lot to give up, to give up everything seems like alot because it is all.
He requires all, but that is where there is true freedom.
That is where there is true peace.
As someone who's walked in that, as going from a non-believer to a believer who was stillkind of holding on to a little bit of my life to saying, no, Jesus, here I am.
(13:33):
I'm yours and I could do no other.
That's where I found freedom and hope and peace.
You know, everything you're saying right now is so counterintuitive to the culture.
It is so counterculture.
And that's you came up with the name counteract.
So counterculture.
(13:54):
And yet it is truth.
And I feel that it is truth.
I I'm looking at.
You know, my own life, I gave my life to the Lord when I was 19.
I am far removed from 19 years of age right now.
And as I look over the course of my life, I mean, all of you who are listening in, we'veall tried to do it our way.
(14:17):
It is exhausting.
And I look at the culture today, especially these past eight years, it's like we've beenpressing the pedal to the metal on, you know, how depraved can we be?
and you look around and I often think, God, if I didn't, know, for those who don't knowyou, this must be exhausting.
(14:42):
Because no matter how dark it gets, and it got dark a lot during these past eight years,specifically the last four years, when you see little kids being, you know, being
encouraged to mutilate their bodies or to chemically castrate themselves is dark.
But then I get to pivot and keep my eyes on Christ, even in my own life of looking at whenI thought I was about to achieve this, but somehow it got thwarted or an obstacle
(15:18):
presented itself or someone did some injustice and realizing, you know, feeling that senseof bitterness creeping in.
and making a decision on, okay, am I gonna rest in this bitterness or is there, know,looking to Christ causes me to take my eyes off of myself and onto him, the creator of me,
(15:48):
you know, he says that when you were in your mother's womb, I knitted you together, I putin you purpose, I destined you for something.
And so when you're going through these hard moments in life and it's sad and it'sdepressing and there's anxiety, I get to pivot my focus and say, okay, wait a minute.
(16:11):
You created me with purpose and with design and there's a place for me.
There's a path for me.
So I'm going to believe that.
And I think to myself, for those who don't have that, my God.
My God, hence the reason why we see so much anxiety, not just in our young people, butacross the demographics.
(16:38):
it's increasingly, it's more worrisome to me when I see young people being riddled withanxiety and depression and walking around with coping mechanisms like puppies and cats,
right?
Like this is, it only gets harder.
With life right so if you're already stressed out and you're 18 or 23 Like my god, isthat?
(17:04):
What?
What does that tell us about the future not just your own future, but the future of oursociety?
Right.
Absolutely.
I know that we definitely see a lot of the coping mechanisms for sure, but that's wherewe're so we we love what we get to do at counteract USA and what we we do specifically is
(17:24):
equipping young believers to not only be rooted and grounded in their beliefs, butlearning how to apply them to the cultural and political conversations because where
there's anxiety and hopelessness, we can't expect the government to step in and solvethose problems.
We can't expect a self-help book to step in and solve those problems.
(17:44):
It is going to take us, the body of Christ, leaning into the conversations that we'rehaving in our everyday lives.
It's getting coffee with a friend.
It's talking to that family member that's wrestling with something and not being unafraidof the awkward conversations.
And so what we do with our with our counteract USA members and what we're seeing just ashift in Gen Z, especially the young believers, is a desire to be prepared for those
(18:08):
conversations like first Peter 315 saying, always being prepared to give a defense for thehope that you have, yet doing so with gentleness and respect.
so we meet together with like minded believers and we have intentional conversations aboutwhat's going on.
in politics, what's going on in the culture so that we can have true iron sharpens ironcommunity and friendships being sharpened and then prepared and equipped so that when that
(18:33):
awkward conversation happens outside of our counteract USA meeting, we're not caught offguard.
We know what the truth of the word of God says and we're prepared to speak into thatconversation because that's the hope that our generation needs.
And Romans 10 says, how are they to believe in him of whom they have never
And how are they to hear without someone telling them and how are they to be told withoutthem being sent as it is written how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good
(19:00):
news and we are those who preach the good news and the good news is exactly what you'resaying that Jesus is our hope Jesus is our peace He's what gets us up in the morning and
he is our final victory.
Our hope isn't in America We should want to see her prosper.
We should want to see her be governed
by people who have biblical or more biblical values in their policy because that willobjectively be better for people and we want to see the welfare of people as believers, as
(19:30):
people who are called to love God and love others.
But our hope isn't ultimately in politics.
We're going into the Christmas season, that verse that says, for unto you a child is bornand his name shall be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince
of peace.
The government shall rest upon his shoulders and his rules shall have no end.
(19:53):
Like that is our hope.
The government rests on his shoulders.
that's where we're seeing excitement and momentum is as the church is emboldened by thegospel to go into these cultural and political conversations, to run for office, to speak
into the lies of the culture and counteract that with the truth of the word of God.
That's where we're gonna see our culture continue to shift and the anxiety hopefullyprayerfully.
(20:18):
will dissipate as we turn our eyes to Jesus.
Yeah.
I think just be encouraged.
Like the conversations we're having in ourselves and then testimonies we're hearing fromcells are counteract cells from across the country is that it's we have one girl and she's
currently in cosmetology school and she was telling us, I have a couple of people in myclass and we were talking about politics and culture and worldview.
(20:41):
And she's like, and I was able to engage in and talk about Jesus in that conversationbecause
I knew my stuff on, the other issues and I was able to bring it back to Christ.
I, just heard about one of our high school groups, the guys, it was, a like high schoolguy cell and he was talking about a topic and he was like, well, they didn't even know
what it was a year ago, but now I want to revisit it because I've seen the progression andthe conversations they're now having like now they're ready for it.
(21:08):
So I, I'm super encouraged because we see people are hungry and, they're searching, butthen they're also taking and applying what they've learned.
And then going back into their workplace and back into their classrooms and talking withtheir family, friends, their circles of influence and having real influence.
Now, what are you saying?
Because the reality is when I look at this political season, we just.
(21:33):
Left.
There was a point of time prior to this year where you would hear pundits talk about thefaith vote.
This year, not so much.
No one really, I mean, like they talked about the gay vote.
They talked about the black vote, the Hispanic vote, whether illegals were going to bevoting.
(21:54):
They talked about all kinds of people voting, but no one, but we, it was interesting to meand it was something that caught my attention that no one was really interested in the
faith vote.
And a big reason for that.
from my own experience and observation being on the campaign trail is that the church hassidelined themselves.
(22:23):
And so I love organizations like what it is that you're doing and how you're beingintentional and talking to young people, to people in general is because whereas the
church, the four wall building that we call the church should be leading
But I find that they're not.
(22:43):
I find that they have, you know, become concerned with a lot of other peripheral thingsversus the main thing who I believe is Jesus and what it is that we've been called to do
of going out into the world and making disciples, telling people about the good news thatwe've discovered.
And so, but I did find that to be interesting about, you know, the fact that no one wasreally talking about the faith vote.
(23:09):
The world is perfectly content to move beyond people of faith and having a conversationabout faith.
What are you seeing in that regard?
We've noticed the same thing.
We certainly have.
And that's a conversation that we've been having in our groups.
And actually we're getting ready to record a podcast episode about that exact thing.
(23:31):
Because it is a key moment.
Where does the conservative movement go from here?
Are we going to abandon Christianity entirely or are we the church going to step in andsay, actually, if we are not conserving specifically the biblical values that are
intertwined and enshrined in our constitution, which is why they work, then what in theworld are we conserving?
(23:51):
But it's going to take the church stepping in and actually asking those questions anddemanding a seat at the table.
And not from a theocratic perspective.
perspective at all, not whatsoever, but reminding that this is what we are trying toconserve.
Are these principles?
Are these ideals?
Are these values?
We've been seeing that exact thing happening in the political circles.
(24:16):
Whereas a few years ago, even a few years ago when we were first getting involved, we feltlike Christianity, Christians were much more representative in the movement and in public
policy conversations.
It's much less so now.
So it's going to take the church actually getting involved, not asking for a niceinvitation, but saying, Hey, Hey, listen, like we care about these issues and we are going
(24:36):
to have a voice in it and speaking up with grace and truth.
Yeah, we last night, the Bonhoeffer movie just came out and last night a group of us fromour counter Excel went to it.
and we get to that part in the movie where, you know, Bonhoeffer is famous quote of,silence in the space of evil is evil itself.
Not to speak is to speak, not to act is to act.
(24:56):
And that's
You know, I think what we see a lot right now where it's just people aren't acting andthey're not being bold and they're not willing to get out there and speak.
And it's it's very sad and it showed in the polls where it's like, yeah, it wasn't theevangelical vote that won this election.
And and that I think this next four years we have, we really need to take this moment andsay, no, OK, it's time to take this back.
(25:21):
It's not a you get to do a four year victory lap.
It's like, no, this is the time that we need to get in there.
actually engage with the church and get them on on board but also have these conversationsof yes you can talk about all of these issues from the pulpit life gender whatever it is
it's in the bible we see it in the bible this goes back to genesis and so let's talk aboutit yeah i you know i i think it's so fitting i want to double click on something that that
(25:49):
you're talking about because i actually wrote an article i haven't put it all i haven'tsent it out to be for publication but
That is the very question that I'm asking.
What are we actually conserving?
I know what you know from a political conservative.
From a political conservative perspective, what are we actually conserving?
(26:10):
Because when you look over the past.
8 years, maybe even longer if I wanted to, but let's just kind of define confine it within8 year period of time.
I mean, we've lost ground on almost.
every single thing that is fundamental to who we are, not just as Christians, but asconservatives, as Americans, since I believe the Constitution is founded on biblical
(26:41):
Judeo-Christian biblical principles.
We've been gutted.
Almost everything that we say we want to conserve, we've actually lost ground on that.
And I can go through a litany of those things.
What do you believe is the answer to writing that ship?
(27:02):
I definitely think it's going to be take the church taking a stand and getting involved,getting engaged.
The politicians in Washington, D.C.
aren't naturally just going to say, you know what, I think in order to gain more groundthan what we have, we are going to adopt Christian
values and principles.
think it's going to take bold faith leaders being involved in conversations, but I dobelieve that that happens on every single level of influence.
(27:31):
Whether or not you have a political office, whether or not you have a social mediaplatform, whether you're a mom with two kids, whether you are involved in your local
church, it's going to take all of us speaking into these conversations saying, no, thereis no arbitrary idea of separation of church and say, we can't, we reject that lie.
We reject the lie that says that we as Christians, like you're saying, sideline ourselvesbecause what we saw when the counteract first started was that Christians that we knew
(28:00):
were good at talking about Christianity within the context of Christianity, within thefour walls of the church.
And as soon as it came to living your faith out in any practical way, it got a lot moreawkward because we're not.
used to it.
told that it's, know, to keep your faith out of it.
Keep your beliefs to yourself.
Don't force your beliefs on anyone.
And so we're saying, okay, we want to be nice.
(28:21):
We don't want to force our beliefs on anyone.
But no, I want to tell you that this is why I do any of this.
I love conservative policy, not because I think that I want to live as a conservative forthe rest of my life.
No, it's because
I love the people that conservative policy objectively helps because it is more closelyaligned with the biblical values that make it work.
(28:43):
It has to go back to the root every single time.
We have all these surface level definitions.
We don't want to ever ask why.
And I think that the questions that we can be asking, why does this work?
Why is this better?
do we stand upon the belief that all life begins at the moment of conception?
Why?
If there isn't some objective standard of morality, if there isn't some absolute truth, ifthere isn't some cause or purpose behind this, then who cares?
(29:10):
If our conservatism isn't rooted in something absolute, kind of like we're going back tothe beginning of this conversation, then it's really just a slow paced leftism.
If it's not anchored in anything, it will drift away.
Since we've disconnected the Bible, God, belief in something bigger than ourselves fromwhy we do what we do.
(29:30):
So we have the US Constitution and I believe it was founded upon Judeo-Christian biblicalvalues.
But when we disconnect the foundation from which the Constitution was written on and wesay, okay, well, this is just the Constitution.
This is what we're gonna do.
But we disconnected from the why we do what we do.
(29:54):
Now we have people who are reinventing, you know,
you know, first amendment applies unless it's disinformation.
Well, who gets to decide if it's disinformation?
Well, we're going to have a czar and we're just going to follow the experts, right?
This is the reason why Dr.
Fauci can stand up and say, I am science and no one blinks.
(30:18):
This is odd.
This is wrong.
We reject that.
Because we, as you said so wonderfully that we've disconnected the why we do the thingsthat we do.
And once I disconnect the why, as I said earlier, you we have God in the center and wehave all of these different subjects and I can study science, but it always points back to
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God because God is the, he's the designer of it, right?
But if I remove the why, if I remove God, if I remove these values that this document waswritten upon,
Well, eventually that document is going to go adrift because now we're going to find newvalue systems to place it upon.
(31:00):
Absolutely.
And that's all that we can expect if we're not anchoring ourselves in absolute truth,we're not anchoring our beliefs, our standards in something absolute.
Then it just drifts away with the culture like everything else that we've seen in the lastdecades.
I mean, like, look how far we drifted.
I mean, not
Not so long ago, we would have been aghast to think today, the US Supreme Court, I know bythe time this airs, it may be a little bit dated, we may have the answer.
(31:32):
But today, on this particular day, the Supreme Court is hearing the case on whether or notit is unconstitutional for states to ban children being
transition.
Of course, there is no such thing as a child being transitioned.
There are only two genders.
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Everything else is a mental health crisis waiting for a loving and kind psychiatrist tosit down with them.
But who would have ever thought that in a very, seems like a very short period of timethat we as a nation, the highest court in our, in our country is about to hear and debate
(32:15):
whether or not
the government should be allowed to assist children in mutilating their bodies, assistchildren as early as 12, as early as five.
There are some who are as early as five years old making a decision for their 30 year oldself.
(32:35):
Making a decision today to chemically castrate yourself, to cut off your own breath, toremove your uterus.
Today, as a child with the functioning of a child with the world experience of a childthat you're going to be completely content with when you're 30.
Like that is how far we've fallen as a nation because I believe that the very thing we'retalking about, we disconnected ourselves from the why we do what we do.
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We don't just do these things, but there's a reason why we do these things.
and we've disconnected ourselves from the why.
Yeah, I think of the saying you give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
You know, we gave that inch as the church.
We said, OK, yeah, we're not going to talk about these issues and we want to stay far awayfrom it because we are scared to lose our 501 C3 status or we are scared to lose, you
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know, the offerings coming in every week.
But because of that, we've seen now the results and the effects of in twenty twenty four.
I pray that the Supreme Court makes the right decision, but we already see kidstransitioning.
And we see a lot of states where it is legal and where you can go ahead and have thesesurgeries.
And so I just pray that we can kind of course correct.
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But yes, it is going to take the body of Christ and it's going to take all of us engagingand being Christians and being in those spheres, all spheres, and not saying, yeah, I
don't think Christians belong in that space.
Or yeah, I don't think we're supposed to be in media or politics or whatever it is.
No, we need to go back in and
and take it back.
Yeah, and I definitely think it goes back to having those conversations.
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I think that sometimes we think that we can have influence when we make it big and when wehave enough followers on social media or when we get this job or platform or position, but
we can't wait on that in order to be obedient to what God has commanded that we do.
And that's to speak up for the least of these.
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That is to be an advocate for
the voiceless and children can't consent to these things.
They're a pawn in a political game and they didn't ask to be.
And so we as adults, as believers, we do have to step in and especially as the church andsay, hey, listen, like this is a conversation that we shouldn't even have to be having in
our culture.
So what do we do?
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So it doesn't matter if you don't have the platform or the job or the position.
yet you have influence where God has placed you.
People that are listening to this have access to 5, 10, 15 people that you, Ali, willnever have access to.
We'll never be able to have the conversations, the trust, the vulnerability, therelationship with these people that will actually influence their heart and mind to be
(35:19):
turned toward the truth, to understand the truth that is grounded, is rooted in biblicaltruth, biblical values.
We all have influence and access to people who change public opinion.
And when the church is influencing public opinion, well, then we have to, as we, thepeople, mandate that our policymakers listen to us.
(35:41):
And so it's a long game.
It's a ground game, but we all have a voice in it.
We all have a part in it because really it is outrageous that this is even a conversationhappening in our nation's highest court today.
That's it.
That is crazy that I remember being 15 14 when the Obergefell decision came down and myheart broke.
I just wondered what on earth this meant for the trajectory of our nation and I wasn'tinvolved in politics.
(36:05):
I just remember seeing it hearing about it and realizing how can the Supreme Court of theUnited States redefine something that God created and then we're just seeing that on a
multitude of levels throughout our culture.
So
Our hope is that the truth hasn't changed that Jesus is still the way the truth in thelife His word is still steadfast So we as believers just have to make sure that we're
(36:29):
leveraging the influence that God has given us No matter how small we think it is.
God can use that in many many mighty ways He is a god of loaves and fishes to this day.
We just have to be obedient to where he's planted us Yeah Now what if though?
What if the Supreme Court hands down a ruling that you and I?
(36:50):
and Ali vehemently oppose, then what?
Then what?
We keep going.
That's what we talked to our counteract USA family, community across the nation beforethis election in November.
We said no matter what the outcome of this election is, our calling as believers is stillthe same.
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Our calling is still to make disciples.
Our calling is still to stand upon the truth of the word of God.
Our hope is still in Christ and Christ alone.
And so we keep going.
It's going to cost you something.
It's going to cost you something.
I mean, do do do God really want us to lose everything?
Like, can't we just get people warm them up to us and our way of thinking?
(37:37):
That sounds cozy, doesn't it?
It sounds it sounds comfortable.
It sounds nice, but.
It sounds like the typical American church.
man, and that's the life I lived for so long.
what Jesus calls me to do is to lay down my life, take up my cross, and follow Him.
And no matter what it costs, no matter how hard it is, and it is hard, sometimes it's notfun when people that you went to high school and church with tell you that the world would
(38:05):
be a kinder place without you.
It sometimes isn't fun when people make death threats against your family.
It sometimes isn't fun when you lose an opportunity or you get called out in class or youare threatened in a job.
It's not fun, but it's better.
And that's when your hope shifts, your identity shifts from finding myself in Abigail,kind like you were talking about earlier.
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Christ wants all of me.
Jesus wants all of me.
And when I finally, and I struggle with this, it's a daily surrender.
It's daily giving up parts of my life that I've
grabbed a hold of again, control I've grabbed a hold of again.
But when I say, surrender Lord and my life is yours.
And if it costs my life, if it costs everything, all I can do is be obedient to you toknow that one day I will hear the words, well done, good and faithful servant.
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That's it.
That's all that I hope is in.
You know, I remember being a young girl like yourself and I heard someone say this.
You probably have heard heard this analogy as well that what if you get to heaven AbigailAli and you realize there is no God.
(39:19):
And all of this sacrificing and putting yourself on the line was for not then what?
I'm asking then what right I can finish that but I mean it's a well-worn word well toldanalogy within the Christian circle, but let me just put that let me just let me just
(39:44):
pause right there What if you get to heaven and all this Jesus talk was for nothing?
There is no Jesus then what right?
Well, then at the very worst you lived more selflessly you lived more graciously
You were involved and more of an advocate for your quote unquote fellow man.
But then we can rejoice that that all points back to the fact and the reality that thereis a maker and a standard of morality and his name is Jesus.
(40:10):
But at the very worst, you were involved and engaged and you cared about your country andyour countrymen.
And you had some sense of purpose and morality to build your life upon some identity andtruth.
Absolutely.
Bravo.
Bravo to the answer because I believe, you know, I saw that same article that the sale ofBibles are up 22 % and you say, well, my God, like what's going on?
(40:37):
And it's easy if you're you if you're observing what's going on in the culture, people arehungry.
People are starving for purpose.
They're starving for meaning.
And why am I here?
And this doesn't just apply to the young, it is across demographics.
Again, it's not just white or black or male or female or rich or poor.
(41:04):
People are desperately looking for an identity.
I don't care if you're associated with Antifa, Black Lives Matter on one end or over hereon our side of the aisle.
We're looking for identity.
We're looking for a place we want to fit in.
(41:25):
And I remember reading of a young girl this quote from Blaze Pascal that there's a Godshaped vacuum in all of our hearts.
And just because you remove God from that equation doesn't mean the vacuum goes away.
Now you're just sucking up whatever you think.
makes you feel whole, right?
(41:46):
Whether it's climatism or the LGBTQ AI, everyone is looking for purpose, meaning identity.
None of us, not even George Soros as horrible of an individual is excluded from lookingfor purpose.
(42:08):
And I believe, I'm sure you believe as well that I found
an element of truth.
And I believe none of us own truth perfectly, but I believe it's our job to go seek itout.
And once we seek it out, put a stake in the ground until better information comes along,right?
And I believe that that stake in the ground, that that piece of truth that I havediscovered over my life is that Jesus is real and that there is a God.
(42:38):
And one day I am gonna have to stand in front of him.
and give a count of my life.
And I want, I too want to hear well done.
Well done, Kathy.
You did an amazing job.
That is what motivates my life.
And for those who do not have that, again, my prayer is that.
(43:03):
As you're listening to this, you know, I believe that one person sows a seed, anotherperson comes and water that seed, but it is God who gets the increase.
And it is God's business to prepare your heart.
The ones who will hear this message, it is his job to prepare your heart, not mine, toreceive it.
(43:23):
And my prayer that the Spirit of God will convict you, will begin to speak to you, willbegin to come alongside you and draw you
to Jesus because I believe, especially now more than ever, that he, I've always believedit, but sometimes you get a little jaded when you think, I can solve these problems if I
(43:44):
can just achieve this or that.
But I am more convinced today than ever that no matter what, no matter who wins, who's inoffice, who holds a position, our eyes need to stay on Christ.
Yeah, exactly right.
I love that.
Amen to all of that.
(44:05):
But yeah, that that's where we're at.
And that's what keeps us going is yes, we want what we have and what we know to be true.
We want that for everybody.
You know, we want that for you.
We want that for, people who, who might disagree with this.
and it's, yes, the people on quote unquote, the other side, they're not our enemy.
You know, the enemy is our enemy and we need to go and try to reach them and again, dowhat Jesus calls us to do.
(44:30):
And and speak the truth in love but but be out there and in talking to them I was talkingto to a reporter a few a few weeks ago from a from a liberal a liberal publication to say
the least and She was saying as we were talking it was like an hour-long sit-down becauseshe was just really confused about how many young people she was encountering that were
(44:53):
saying that they were not only conservative but religious and not only religious butChristian
And she was, as I was talking to her, she stopped me and she was like, you do realize thatwhile you're talking about love, so much of the world is going to call what you call love,
hate.
How do you reconcile that?
What do you do with that?
And I told her, I understand what you're saying.
(45:15):
I understand that the world calls what I believe is love, hate, bigotry.
But what it comes down to is at the end of the day is I really believe what I say Ibelieve.
I really believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
I believe that everyone who confesses their sins and believes in their heart that Jesus isLord and that God raised him from the dead will be saved.
(45:41):
We'll have eternity with him that don't have to strive after the things of this worldanymore.
I really believe that.
So call me what you will.
Do your worst.
But my prayer is that the Lord would continue to stir up my heart to break my heart for mygeneration, for my culture so much enough that I never stop.
calling on his name and sharing the truth of who he is.
(46:02):
So thank you for your boldness.
Thank you for your love for Jesus and your outspokenness about him.
It's really encouraging and inspiring to us to keep going as we all as believers as thebody of Christ spur one another on to love and good works all the more as we see the day
drawing near.
Ladies, thank you.
(46:22):
Abby, Abigail, Allison, Ali, thank you so much.
You counteract.
USA.
Thank you so much for being with us.
I appreciate you.
You I want to call you girls.
Just you young women doing the most and doing it in a way that is just beautiful.
(46:43):
You are and I and I earnestly believe it is your generation.
It's your generation in every generation.
It's the young people.
That I mean, we look kind of look to you.
We pivot to you.
I mean, you should naturally be rebellious against the curve and usher in differentmovements.
It is so good to see that instead of your generation bringing in Woodstock and everythingthat came with that, you're bringing in this sense of conservatism.
(47:14):
You're having babies.
You're getting married first.
You're having children, having lots of children.
and you're being very outspoken in your conservative values.
That gives me so much encouragement and hope as well.
So thank you both for coming on.
Thank you so much for having us.
Absolutely.
Stay right there.
(47:35):
To everyone else, you know the drill.
Click.
on the subscribe button wherever you are listening to this podcast followed by thenotification button followed by leave me a comment and share.
Blessings and Merry Christmas to all of you.
Talk to you soon.
Hello everyone, welcome back to another edition of the Kathy Barnett Show.
I'm gonna jump right in with my two very lovely guests, Abigail DeJarnett, did I pronouncethat correctly?
That's great.
Awesome, and Allison Paris.
How are you ladies?
Doing good, thank you for having us.
(00:23):
Yes, thank you so much for taking some time out.
I am new.
to counteract USA.
have an assistant, Daniel.
He talks about you ladies all the time.
And we were recently at an event outside of Washington DC, C &P.
And he kept saying, I want you to meet, I want you to meet.
(00:45):
We did not get a chance to meet, but I'm so very grateful that you decided to come ontothe podcast because as I've read more about what it is that you do, I love it.
It's exactly, I believe, where we find ourselves in this culture, in this culture where wehave made gods with our own hands and now a culture that is requiring everyone to bow to
(01:11):
those gods that they created with their own hands and the pressure that is on many of uswho want to engage in our culture, who see the need to engage in our culture, but
there's a whole set of rules, a whole set of virtue signaling that has to be done, a wholelot of bowing when you speak about a variety of issues.
(01:36):
And then when I see, when I read about you, when I read about your organization, you areunapologetically Christians.
You believe in Jesus, it is not an afterthought, you lead with it versus apologizing,which is very difficult in the culture.
and specifically in the culture of politics.
(01:57):
So I'm gonna just throw it out there.
One, how do you bridge that gap?
Understanding that this is the culture in which we're living in and yet being unapologeticabout who you are and wanting to be a part of the conversation.
Absolutely.
Well, both of us, when we were growing up, this was not what we set out to do.
(02:17):
We did not set out to be in the world of politics, but...
we did grow up as Gen Z Christians in the 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, and then 2020 era wherewe saw our generation fall apart, especially our generation of Christians walk away from
the Lord completely.
And as the church was silent, our generation continued to struggle.
(02:40):
And so that was what first clued us into something is seriously wrong.
And these issues that we're being told are these cultural and political issues.
are actually very spiritual and the answers that our generation was looking for are foundfirst and foremost in the Word of God.
The hope that they're searching for is in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And so if we as believers, as the church, aren't the ones speaking into the conversation,well, how can we expect anything to get better?
(03:07):
So for us, when we began all of this in college, it was never a matter of, and I think wetalked about this at the beginning, we would see these conversations about how do we
balance faith and politics?
For us, it was never a matter of balancing faith and politics.
It wasn't God and country.
was Jesus over everything.
And when we bring everything into submission to Him and what He says is best and right andtrue, well, then everything better as a result.
(03:32):
If your policy reflects the truth of the Word of God, it's going to be better policythat's objectively better for all people because things tend to work better when they're
according to design, according to the way that the designer intended them to be.
I love that.
Allison Alley, were you were you going to say something?
Yeah, honestly, it reminds me of a story So a couple years ago when we were both still inschool We had a counteract night when Abby came back from one for classes and she said hey
(03:57):
guys I've been thinking about this thing and she had been tabling on campus and havingpro-life conversations and she said I'm very convicted and you can you can take the story
if you want but basically As Christians and a lot of times I know I've done it and I'veseen it where you kind of caveat or apologize for being a Christian
saying like, well, I know this is like my beliefs, but because I'm a Christian and becauseof this, and it's like, no, it is objectively truth.
(04:22):
And if that's what you believe and you stand on that, then you need to be bold about thatand not kind of shy back from that and say, well, it's okay.
It only applies to me because I'm a Christian.
It's like, no, this is the truth.
And the most loving thing to do is, tell you that.
Yeah, that, that, that particular story, that was kind of a pivotal moment.
And I'm so glad that so many of my dear friends that have built Counteract USA
(04:43):
We're in the room for that because I was having a conversation with a classmate from oneof my public policy classes about the issue of life.
And as I was breaking down every kind of conversation, I was well versed in thatparticular topic.
I could argue it scientifically from a policy perspective, from a philosophicalperspective.
(05:03):
We were just of going around and around and around.
And then the Lord convicted me and I realized that I never told him why.
And so I stopped and I told him.
I believe this because I believe that God is the author of life.
He's like, well, I'm not a Christian.
And the Lord struck me in that moment.
And I realized, but that doesn't mean it's not true.
That doesn't mean that God didn't also create you in his image on purpose, with purpose,intentionally, with intentionality and intentional gender and corresponding sexuality.
(05:31):
You are seen and known by a God who loves you.
Wait, that's not just true for me because I'm a Christian.
It's true.
So it was kind of a game changer for us.
We realized that we couldn't.
by end the postmodernism of our culture by saying that as a Christian this is true for mebut it may not necessarily be true for you.
No, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life regardless of whether or not you personallybelieve that that is objectively true.
(05:57):
Absolutely ladies.
I too believe that there is an objective truth.
I believe his name is Jesus.
And you know and we homeschooled our kids, my husband and I.
for most of their education.
And we use classical conversation.
And there was this one little thing and I drew it out on our board, on our wall is stillthere to this day, is that God is in the center, right?
(06:23):
And there's these arrows, two directional arrows.
You have God in the center and then you have history and you have science and you haveEnglish and you have all of these different subjects and it's not compartmentalized.
God is the author of all of these things, all of these subjects, and all of those subjectspoint back to God.
(06:46):
And yet, in culture, when we show up, something that you're speaking to is that we have aten...
We've been told we need to compartmentalize our conversations.
We only have this church talk when we're at church and within four walls.
But when you step outside of those four walls, now we're told we have to adopt thelanguage of those...
(07:08):
in society, which apparently doesn't include anything of faith unless of course you wantto use God in some kind of blaspheming fashion.
But outside of that, we just don't talk about God.
We don't talk about faith.
Instead, we talk about human and humanity and the good within us, but we don't necessarilypoint to it originating.
(07:37):
from a very subjective, a very objective entity.
Absolutely.
That's actually something that we've been seeing a lot of our generation has been fed thispostmodernism this live your truth find your truth, which we're told is this this idea of
freedom and liberation and autonomy, but It's not freeing and there's this desperatepursuit of the self and identity in all of these different intersectionality points which
(08:06):
is actually Marxist in nature because it's let me identify with certain classes and groupsand these are my
identification points and intersectionality points been really the only identity that'sever going to satisfy you is identity in Christ in Christ alone.
were actually talking just this week there is a Wall Street Journal article that came outsaying that there has been I think it was a 22 percent increase in the sales of Bibles
(08:30):
this year with only a one percent increase in book sales overall.
So that's a huge huge number and a lot of the article is speaking to these
young people especially, they reference TikTok in a lot of their reporting.
But people looking for hope.
There's this rise in anxiety.
You have Jonathan Heights, the anxious generation pointing to, are just desperatelysearching and it never ever ends.
(08:57):
But what we're looking for is something absolute that was evidenced in this article.
We need to know that Jesus is the way, the truth and life.
We need that truth to influence our public policy and our cultural
conversation like you're saying there is one truth and his name is Jesus and so when we'retold to find ourselves find our truth it's much more liberating to say know the truth and
(09:22):
the truth will set you free know Jesus and he will set you free and that frees you to beinvolved to be vocal to speak into these cultural and political conversations tirelessly
endlessly because if it's about the gospel
and the Holy Spirit is your source, the truth of the word of God is your anchor.
Well, then it's his strength that we're running on.
(09:43):
We're not having to run endlessly.
I don't know if you want to add anything to that.
Yeah, I'll just say like we hear studies and we see and we just talk to people, but Gen Z,they hate when people are fake.
And I think, know, previous, yeah, previous generations are you hear from your professors?
Yeah, find your truth.
And they're like, no, like we want to know the truth and we don't, we don't want to see,you know, fake anymore.
(10:05):
want.
to know what's true.
so that's also been just super encouraging, just seeing people on that track.
I mean, well, you know, the reason why we want it's more attractive in our culture to sayyour truth, my truth, you know, everybody got their own little truth because if there is
one objective truth, well, then you have to ask, well, what does he want of me?
(10:33):
And he may want something of me that I don't want to give, right?
Like my autonomy, like I want to do what I want to do.
And I find that knowing what is right or wrong is not, is not nine out of 10 times theissue.
(10:53):
The issue is what do I do with, if this is true, what...
What does it require of me?
What am I going to have to surrender or give up or do if your truth is really the truthversus me being relative and doing what I want to do?
(11:13):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly right.
And I know that's hard, you know, I think we see it a lot again.
It's like we're kind of a selfish generation.
But, you know, in any genuine pursuit of truth.
should point back to the ultimate truth.
and just in the Bible sales, I think that's super encouraging to just see, I think Gen Zis turning and hopefully we see a big revival coming soon.
(11:36):
Yeah, that what you're saying reminds me of the end of mere Christianity when CS Lewis istalking basically about the cost of following Christ and what he does require is all of
us, all of me.
But I will tell anyone listening, whether you're Gen Z, no matter how old you are, thatwhen I truly surrendered my life fully to Christ, when I said, okay, I'm done, even as a
(12:01):
believer, when I was kind of holding on still to some semblance of control in my life, andreally when I let go was four years ago before Counteract USA started, I finally reached a
point where I realized that I was tired of being on my ship, D'Tar says.
I was tired of trying to make my own way, find my own way, live my own truth.
and giving my whole self to Jesus, letting Abigail die every single day, I have beencrucified with Christ.
(12:27):
It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me and the life I now live in theflesh.
I live by faith in the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.
And the more of myself that I give to him, the more I realize how abundant and full he is,how satisfying he is.
how it feels to fall into his arms at the end of a long day and realize that my rest andmy hope and my peace isn't in what I accomplish in a day.
(12:53):
We're in a very overachieving culture.
We're told that we are the sum of what we produce and add to society, what we achieve.
And that's exhausting.
That is exhausting.
But to say, actually, you know what?
I don't have to worry about failure because my king has already won.
I work whatever I do with all my heart is working unto the Lord and not to man.
(13:13):
And that sounds like in our culture a lot to give up, to give up everything seems like alot because it is all.
He requires all, but that is where there is true freedom.
That is where there is true peace.
As someone who's walked in that, as going from a non-believer to a believer who was stillkind of holding on to a little bit of my life to saying, no, Jesus, here I am.
(13:33):
I'm yours and I could do no other.
That's where I found freedom and hope and peace.
You know, everything you're saying right now is so counterintuitive to the culture.
It is so counterculture.
And that's you came up with the name counteract.
So counterculture.
(13:54):
And yet it is truth.
And I feel that it is truth.
I I'm looking at.
You know, my own life, I gave my life to the Lord when I was 19.
I am far removed from 19 years of age right now.
And as I look over the course of my life, I mean, all of you who are listening in, we'veall tried to do it our way.
(14:17):
It is exhausting.
And I look at the culture today, especially these past eight years, it's like we've beenpressing the pedal to the metal on, you know, how depraved can we be?
and you look around and I often think, God, if I didn't, know, for those who don't knowyou, this must be exhausting.
(14:42):
Because no matter how dark it gets, and it got dark a lot during these past eight years,specifically the last four years, when you see little kids being, you know, being
encouraged to mutilate their bodies or to chemically castrate themselves is dark.
But then I get to pivot and keep my eyes on Christ, even in my own life of looking at whenI thought I was about to achieve this, but somehow it got thwarted or an obstacle
(15:18):
presented itself or someone did some injustice and realizing, you know, feeling that senseof bitterness creeping in.
and making a decision on, okay, am I gonna rest in this bitterness or is there, know,looking to Christ causes me to take my eyes off of myself and onto him, the creator of me,
(15:48):
you know, he says that when you were in your mother's womb, I knitted you together, I putin you purpose, I destined you for something.
And so when you're going through these hard moments in life and it's sad and it'sdepressing and there's anxiety, I get to pivot my focus and say, okay, wait a minute.
(16:11):
You created me with purpose and with design and there's a place for me.
There's a path for me.
So I'm going to believe that.
And I think to myself, for those who don't have that, my God.
My God, hence the reason why we see so much anxiety, not just in our young people, butacross the demographics.
(16:38):
it's increasingly, it's more worrisome to me when I see young people being riddled withanxiety and depression and walking around with coping mechanisms like puppies and cats,
right?
Like this is, it only gets harder.
With life right so if you're already stressed out and you're 18 or 23 Like my god, isthat?
(17:04):
What?
What does that tell us about the future not just your own future, but the future of oursociety?
Right.
Absolutely.
I know that we definitely see a lot of the coping mechanisms for sure, but that's wherewe're so we we love what we get to do at counteract USA and what we we do specifically is
(17:24):
equipping young believers to not only be rooted and grounded in their beliefs, butlearning how to apply them to the cultural and political conversations because where
there's anxiety and hopelessness, we can't expect the government to step in and solvethose problems.
We can't expect a self-help book to step in and solve those problems.
(17:44):
It is going to take us, the body of Christ, leaning into the conversations that we'rehaving in our everyday lives.
It's getting coffee with a friend.
It's talking to that family member that's wrestling with something and not being unafraidof the awkward conversations.
And so what we do with our with our counteract USA members and what we're seeing just ashift in Gen Z, especially the young believers, is a desire to be prepared for those
(18:08):
conversations like first Peter 315 saying, always being prepared to give a defense for thehope that you have, yet doing so with gentleness and respect.
so we meet together with like minded believers and we have intentional conversations aboutwhat's going on.
in politics, what's going on in the culture so that we can have true iron sharpens ironcommunity and friendships being sharpened and then prepared and equipped so that when that
(18:33):
awkward conversation happens outside of our counteract USA meeting, we're not caught offguard.
We know what the truth of the word of God says and we're prepared to speak into thatconversation because that's the hope that our generation needs.
And Romans 10 says, how are they to believe in him of whom they have never
And how are they to hear without someone telling them and how are they to be told withoutthem being sent as it is written how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good
(19:00):
news and we are those who preach the good news and the good news is exactly what you'resaying that Jesus is our hope Jesus is our peace He's what gets us up in the morning and
he is our final victory.
Our hope isn't in America We should want to see her prosper.
We should want to see her be governed
by people who have biblical or more biblical values in their policy because that willobjectively be better for people and we want to see the welfare of people as believers, as
(19:30):
people who are called to love God and love others.
But our hope isn't ultimately in politics.
We're going into the Christmas season, that verse that says, for unto you a child is bornand his name shall be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince
of peace.
The government shall rest upon his shoulders and his rules shall have no end.
(19:53):
Like that is our hope.
The government rests on his shoulders.
that's where we're seeing excitement and momentum is as the church is emboldened by thegospel to go into these cultural and political conversations, to run for office, to speak
into the lies of the culture and counteract that with the truth of the word of God.
That's where we're gonna see our culture continue to shift and the anxiety hopefullyprayerfully.
(20:18):
will dissipate as we turn our eyes to Jesus.
Yeah.
I think just be encouraged.
Like the conversations we're having in ourselves and then testimonies we're hearing fromcells are counteract cells from across the country is that it's we have one girl and she's
currently in cosmetology school and she was telling us, I have a couple of people in myclass and we were talking about politics and culture and worldview.
(20:41):
And she's like, and I was able to engage in and talk about Jesus in that conversationbecause
I knew my stuff on, the other issues and I was able to bring it back to Christ.
I, just heard about one of our high school groups, the guys, it was, a like high schoolguy cell and he was talking about a topic and he was like, well, they didn't even know
what it was a year ago, but now I want to revisit it because I've seen the progression andthe conversations they're now having like now they're ready for it.
(21:08):
So I, I'm super encouraged because we see people are hungry and, they're searching, butthen they're also taking and applying what they've learned.
And then going back into their workplace and back into their classrooms and talking withtheir family, friends, their circles of influence and having real influence.
Now, what are you saying?
Because the reality is when I look at this political season, we just.
(21:33):
Left.
There was a point of time prior to this year where you would hear pundits talk about thefaith vote.
This year, not so much.
No one really, I mean, like they talked about the gay vote.
They talked about the black vote, the Hispanic vote, whether illegals were going to bevoting.
(21:54):
They talked about all kinds of people voting, but no one, but we, it was interesting to meand it was something that caught my attention that no one was really interested in the
faith vote.
And a big reason for that.
from my own experience and observation being on the campaign trail is that the church hassidelined themselves.
(22:23):
And so I love organizations like what it is that you're doing and how you're beingintentional and talking to young people, to people in general is because whereas the
church, the four wall building that we call the church should be leading
But I find that they're not.
(22:43):
I find that they have, you know, become concerned with a lot of other peripheral thingsversus the main thing who I believe is Jesus and what it is that we've been called to do
of going out into the world and making disciples, telling people about the good news thatwe've discovered.
And so, but I did find that to be interesting about, you know, the fact that no one wasreally talking about the faith vote.
(23:09):
The world is perfectly content to move beyond people of faith and having a conversationabout faith.
What are you seeing in that regard?
We've noticed the same thing.
We certainly have.
And that's a conversation that we've been having in our groups.
And actually we're getting ready to record a podcast episode about that exact thing.
(23:31):
Because it is a key moment.
Where does the conservative movement go from here?
Are we going to abandon Christianity entirely or are we the church going to step in andsay, actually, if we are not conserving specifically the biblical values that are
intertwined and enshrined in our constitution, which is why they work, then what in theworld are we conserving?
(23:51):
But it's going to take the church stepping in and actually asking those questions anddemanding a seat at the table.
And not from a theocratic perspective.
perspective at all, not whatsoever, but reminding that this is what we are trying toconserve.
Are these principles?
Are these ideals?
Are these values?
We've been seeing that exact thing happening in the political circles.
(24:16):
Whereas a few years ago, even a few years ago when we were first getting involved, we feltlike Christianity, Christians were much more representative in the movement and in public
policy conversations.
It's much less so now.
So it's going to take the church actually getting involved, not asking for a niceinvitation, but saying, Hey, Hey, listen, like we care about these issues and we are going
(24:36):
to have a voice in it and speaking up with grace and truth.
Yeah, we last night, the Bonhoeffer movie just came out and last night a group of us fromour counter Excel went to it.
and we get to that part in the movie where, you know, Bonhoeffer is famous quote of,silence in the space of evil is evil itself.
Not to speak is to speak, not to act is to act.
(24:56):
And that's
You know, I think what we see a lot right now where it's just people aren't acting andthey're not being bold and they're not willing to get out there and speak.
And it's it's very sad and it showed in the polls where it's like, yeah, it wasn't theevangelical vote that won this election.
And and that I think this next four years we have, we really need to take this moment andsay, no, OK, it's time to take this back.
(25:21):
It's not a you get to do a four year victory lap.
It's like, no, this is the time that we need to get in there.
actually engage with the church and get them on on board but also have these conversationsof yes you can talk about all of these issues from the pulpit life gender whatever it is
it's in the bible we see it in the bible this goes back to genesis and so let's talk aboutit yeah i you know i i think it's so fitting i want to double click on something that that
(25:49):
you're talking about because i actually wrote an article i haven't put it all i haven'tsent it out to be for publication but
That is the very question that I'm asking.
What are we actually conserving?
I know what you know from a political conservative.
From a political conservative perspective, what are we actually conserving?
(26:10):
Because when you look over the past.
8 years, maybe even longer if I wanted to, but let's just kind of define confine it within8 year period of time.
I mean, we've lost ground on almost.
every single thing that is fundamental to who we are, not just as Christians, but asconservatives, as Americans, since I believe the Constitution is founded on biblical
(26:41):
Judeo-Christian biblical principles.
We've been gutted.
Almost everything that we say we want to conserve, we've actually lost ground on that.
And I can go through a litany of those things.
What do you believe is the answer to writing that ship?
(27:02):
I definitely think it's going to be take the church taking a stand and getting involved,getting engaged.
The politicians in Washington, D.C.
aren't naturally just going to say, you know what, I think in order to gain more groundthan what we have, we are going to adopt Christian
values and principles.
think it's going to take bold faith leaders being involved in conversations, but I dobelieve that that happens on every single level of influence.
(27:31):
Whether or not you have a political office, whether or not you have a social mediaplatform, whether you're a mom with two kids, whether you are involved in your local
church, it's going to take all of us speaking into these conversations saying, no, thereis no arbitrary idea of separation of church and say, we can't, we reject that lie.
We reject the lie that says that we as Christians, like you're saying, sideline ourselvesbecause what we saw when the counteract first started was that Christians that we knew
(28:00):
were good at talking about Christianity within the context of Christianity, within thefour walls of the church.
And as soon as it came to living your faith out in any practical way, it got a lot moreawkward because we're not.
used to it.
told that it's, know, to keep your faith out of it.
Keep your beliefs to yourself.
Don't force your beliefs on anyone.
And so we're saying, okay, we want to be nice.
(28:21):
We don't want to force our beliefs on anyone.
But no, I want to tell you that this is why I do any of this.
I love conservative policy, not because I think that I want to live as a conservative forthe rest of my life.
No, it's because
I love the people that conservative policy objectively helps because it is more closelyaligned with the biblical values that make it work.
(28:43):
It has to go back to the root every single time.
We have all these surface level definitions.
We don't want to ever ask why.
And I think that the questions that we can be asking, why does this work?
Why is this better?
do we stand upon the belief that all life begins at the moment of conception?
Why?
If there isn't some objective standard of morality, if there isn't some absolute truth, ifthere isn't some cause or purpose behind this, then who cares?
(29:10):
If our conservatism isn't rooted in something absolute, kind of like we're going back tothe beginning of this conversation, then it's really just a slow paced leftism.
If it's not anchored in anything, it will drift away.
Since we've disconnected the Bible, God, belief in something bigger than ourselves fromwhy we do what we do.
(29:30):
So we have the US Constitution and I believe it was founded upon Judeo-Christian biblicalvalues.
But when we disconnect the foundation from which the Constitution was written on and wesay, okay, well, this is just the Constitution.
This is what we're gonna do.
But we disconnected from the why we do what we do.
(29:54):
Now we have people who are reinventing, you know,
you know, first amendment applies unless it's disinformation.
Well, who gets to decide if it's disinformation?
Well, we're going to have a czar and we're just going to follow the experts, right?
This is the reason why Dr.
Fauci can stand up and say, I am science and no one blinks.
(30:18):
This is odd.
This is wrong.
We reject that.
Because we, as you said so wonderfully that we've disconnected the why we do the thingsthat we do.
And once I disconnect the why, as I said earlier, you we have God in the center and wehave all of these different subjects and I can study science, but it always points back to
(30:39):
God because God is the, he's the designer of it, right?
But if I remove the why, if I remove God, if I remove these values that this document waswritten upon,
Well, eventually that document is going to go adrift because now we're going to find newvalue systems to place it upon.
(31:00):
Absolutely.
And that's all that we can expect if we're not anchoring ourselves in absolute truth,we're not anchoring our beliefs, our standards in something absolute.
Then it just drifts away with the culture like everything else that we've seen in the lastdecades.
I mean, like, look how far we drifted.
I mean, not
Not so long ago, we would have been aghast to think today, the US Supreme Court, I know bythe time this airs, it may be a little bit dated, we may have the answer.
(31:32):
But today, on this particular day, the Supreme Court is hearing the case on whether or notit is unconstitutional for states to ban children being
transition.
Of course, there is no such thing as a child being transitioned.
There are only two genders.
(31:53):
Everything else is a mental health crisis waiting for a loving and kind psychiatrist tosit down with them.
But who would have ever thought that in a very, seems like a very short period of timethat we as a nation, the highest court in our, in our country is about to hear and debate
(32:15):
whether or not
the government should be allowed to assist children in mutilating their bodies, assistchildren as early as 12, as early as five.
There are some who are as early as five years old making a decision for their 30 year oldself.
(32:35):
Making a decision today to chemically castrate yourself, to cut off your own breath, toremove your uterus.
Today, as a child with the functioning of a child with the world experience of a childthat you're going to be completely content with when you're 30.
Like that is how far we've fallen as a nation because I believe that the very thing we'retalking about, we disconnected ourselves from the why we do what we do.
(33:08):
We don't just do these things, but there's a reason why we do these things.
and we've disconnected ourselves from the why.
Yeah, I think of the saying you give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
You know, we gave that inch as the church.
We said, OK, yeah, we're not going to talk about these issues and we want to stay far awayfrom it because we are scared to lose our 501 C3 status or we are scared to lose, you
(33:31):
know, the offerings coming in every week.
But because of that, we've seen now the results and the effects of in twenty twenty four.
I pray that the Supreme Court makes the right decision, but we already see kidstransitioning.
And we see a lot of states where it is legal and where you can go ahead and have thesesurgeries.
And so I just pray that we can kind of course correct.
(33:52):
But yes, it is going to take the body of Christ and it's going to take all of us engagingand being Christians and being in those spheres, all spheres, and not saying, yeah, I
don't think Christians belong in that space.
Or yeah, I don't think we're supposed to be in media or politics or whatever it is.
No, we need to go back in and
and take it back.
Yeah, and I definitely think it goes back to having those conversations.
(34:14):
I think that sometimes we think that we can have influence when we make it big and when wehave enough followers on social media or when we get this job or platform or position, but
we can't wait on that in order to be obedient to what God has commanded that we do.
And that's to speak up for the least of these.
(34:35):
That is to be an advocate for
the voiceless and children can't consent to these things.
They're a pawn in a political game and they didn't ask to be.
And so we as adults, as believers, we do have to step in and especially as the church andsay, hey, listen, like this is a conversation that we shouldn't even have to be having in
our culture.
So what do we do?
(34:56):
So it doesn't matter if you don't have the platform or the job or the position.
yet you have influence where God has placed you.
People that are listening to this have access to 5, 10, 15 people that you, Ali, willnever have access to.
We'll never be able to have the conversations, the trust, the vulnerability, therelationship with these people that will actually influence their heart and mind to be
(35:19):
turned toward the truth, to understand the truth that is grounded, is rooted in biblicaltruth, biblical values.
We all have influence and access to people who change public opinion.
And when the church is influencing public opinion, well, then we have to, as we, thepeople, mandate that our policymakers listen to us.
(35:41):
And so it's a long game.
It's a ground game, but we all have a voice in it.
We all have a part in it because really it is outrageous that this is even a conversationhappening in our nation's highest court today.
That's it.
That is crazy that I remember being 15 14 when the Obergefell decision came down and myheart broke.
I just wondered what on earth this meant for the trajectory of our nation and I wasn'tinvolved in politics.
(36:05):
I just remember seeing it hearing about it and realizing how can the Supreme Court of theUnited States redefine something that God created and then we're just seeing that on a
multitude of levels throughout our culture.
So
Our hope is that the truth hasn't changed that Jesus is still the way the truth in thelife His word is still steadfast So we as believers just have to make sure that we're
(36:29):
leveraging the influence that God has given us No matter how small we think it is.
God can use that in many many mighty ways He is a god of loaves and fishes to this day.
We just have to be obedient to where he's planted us Yeah Now what if though?
What if the Supreme Court hands down a ruling that you and I?
(36:50):
and Ali vehemently oppose, then what?
Then what?
We keep going.
That's what we talked to our counteract USA family, community across the nation beforethis election in November.
We said no matter what the outcome of this election is, our calling as believers is stillthe same.
(37:14):
Our calling is still to make disciples.
Our calling is still to stand upon the truth of the word of God.
Our hope is still in Christ and Christ alone.
And so we keep going.
It's going to cost you something.
It's going to cost you something.
I mean, do do do God really want us to lose everything?
Like, can't we just get people warm them up to us and our way of thinking?
(37:37):
That sounds cozy, doesn't it?
It sounds it sounds comfortable.
It sounds nice, but.
It sounds like the typical American church.
man, and that's the life I lived for so long.
what Jesus calls me to do is to lay down my life, take up my cross, and follow Him.
And no matter what it costs, no matter how hard it is, and it is hard, sometimes it's notfun when people that you went to high school and church with tell you that the world would
(38:05):
be a kinder place without you.
It sometimes isn't fun when people make death threats against your family.
It sometimes isn't fun when you lose an opportunity or you get called out in class or youare threatened in a job.
It's not fun, but it's better.
And that's when your hope shifts, your identity shifts from finding myself in Abigail,kind like you were talking about earlier.
(38:26):
Christ wants all of me.
Jesus wants all of me.
And when I finally, and I struggle with this, it's a daily surrender.
It's daily giving up parts of my life that I've
grabbed a hold of again, control I've grabbed a hold of again.
But when I say, surrender Lord and my life is yours.
And if it costs my life, if it costs everything, all I can do is be obedient to you toknow that one day I will hear the words, well done, good and faithful servant.
(38:57):
That's it.
That's all that I hope is in.
You know, I remember being a young girl like yourself and I heard someone say this.
You probably have heard heard this analogy as well that what if you get to heaven AbigailAli and you realize there is no God.
(39:19):
And all of this sacrificing and putting yourself on the line was for not then what?
I'm asking then what right I can finish that but I mean it's a well-worn word well toldanalogy within the Christian circle, but let me just put that let me just let me just
(39:44):
pause right there What if you get to heaven and all this Jesus talk was for nothing?
There is no Jesus then what right?
Well, then at the very worst you lived more selflessly you lived more graciously
You were involved and more of an advocate for your quote unquote fellow man.
But then we can rejoice that that all points back to the fact and the reality that thereis a maker and a standard of morality and his name is Jesus.
(40:10):
But at the very worst, you were involved and engaged and you cared about your country andyour countrymen.
And you had some sense of purpose and morality to build your life upon some identity andtruth.
Absolutely.
Bravo.
Bravo to the answer because I believe, you know, I saw that same article that the sale ofBibles are up 22 % and you say, well, my God, like what's going on?
(40:37):
And it's easy if you're you if you're observing what's going on in the culture, people arehungry.
People are starving for purpose.
They're starving for meaning.
And why am I here?
And this doesn't just apply to the young, it is across demographics.
Again, it's not just white or black or male or female or rich or poor.
(41:04):
People are desperately looking for an identity.
I don't care if you're associated with Antifa, Black Lives Matter on one end or over hereon our side of the aisle.
We're looking for identity.
We're looking for a place we want to fit in.
(41:25):
And I remember reading of a young girl this quote from Blaze Pascal that there's a Godshaped vacuum in all of our hearts.
And just because you remove God from that equation doesn't mean the vacuum goes away.
Now you're just sucking up whatever you think.
makes you feel whole, right?
(41:46):
Whether it's climatism or the LGBTQ AI, everyone is looking for purpose, meaning identity.
None of us, not even George Soros as horrible of an individual is excluded from lookingfor purpose.
(42:08):
And I believe, I'm sure you believe as well that I found
an element of truth.
And I believe none of us own truth perfectly, but I believe it's our job to go seek itout.
And once we seek it out, put a stake in the ground until better information comes along,right?
And I believe that that stake in the ground, that that piece of truth that I havediscovered over my life is that Jesus is real and that there is a God.
(42:38):
And one day I am gonna have to stand in front of him.
and give a count of my life.
And I want, I too want to hear well done.
Well done, Kathy.
You did an amazing job.
That is what motivates my life.
And for those who do not have that, again, my prayer is that.
(43:03):
As you're listening to this, you know, I believe that one person sows a seed, anotherperson comes and water that seed, but it is God who gets the increase.
And it is God's business to prepare your heart.
The ones who will hear this message, it is his job to prepare your heart, not mine, toreceive it.
(43:23):
And my prayer that the Spirit of God will convict you, will begin to speak to you, willbegin to come alongside you and draw you
to Jesus because I believe, especially now more than ever, that he, I've always believedit, but sometimes you get a little jaded when you think, I can solve these problems if I
(43:44):
can just achieve this or that.
But I am more convinced today than ever that no matter what, no matter who wins, who's inoffice, who holds a position, our eyes need to stay on Christ.
Yeah, exactly right.
I love that.
Amen to all of that.
(44:05):
But yeah, that that's where we're at.
And that's what keeps us going is yes, we want what we have and what we know to be true.
We want that for everybody.
You know, we want that for you.
We want that for, people who, who might disagree with this.
and it's, yes, the people on quote unquote, the other side, they're not our enemy.
You know, the enemy is our enemy and we need to go and try to reach them and again, dowhat Jesus calls us to do.
(44:30):
And and speak the truth in love but but be out there and in talking to them I was talkingto to a reporter a few a few weeks ago from a from a liberal a liberal publication to say
the least and She was saying as we were talking it was like an hour-long sit-down becauseshe was just really confused about how many young people she was encountering that were
(44:53):
saying that they were not only conservative but religious and not only religious butChristian
And she was, as I was talking to her, she stopped me and she was like, you do realize thatwhile you're talking about love, so much of the world is going to call what you call love,
hate.
How do you reconcile that?
What do you do with that?
And I told her, I understand what you're saying.
(45:15):
I understand that the world calls what I believe is love, hate, bigotry.
But what it comes down to is at the end of the day is I really believe what I say Ibelieve.
I really believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
I believe that everyone who confesses their sins and believes in their heart that Jesus isLord and that God raised him from the dead will be saved.
(45:41):
We'll have eternity with him that don't have to strive after the things of this worldanymore.
I really believe that.
So call me what you will.
Do your worst.
But my prayer is that the Lord would continue to stir up my heart to break my heart for mygeneration, for my culture so much enough that I never stop.
calling on his name and sharing the truth of who he is.
(46:02):
So thank you for your boldness.
Thank you for your love for Jesus and your outspokenness about him.
It's really encouraging and inspiring to us to keep going as we all as believers as thebody of Christ spur one another on to love and good works all the more as we see the day
drawing near.
Ladies, thank you.
(46:22):
Abby, Abigail, Allison, Ali, thank you so much.
You counteract.
USA.
Thank you so much for being with us.
I appreciate you.
You I want to call you girls.
Just you young women doing the most and doing it in a way that is just beautiful.
(46:43):
You are and I and I earnestly believe it is your generation.
It's your generation in every generation.
It's the young people.
That I mean, we look kind of look to you.
We pivot to you.
I mean, you should naturally be rebellious against the curve and usher in differentmovements.
It is so good to see that instead of your generation bringing in Woodstock and everythingthat came with that, you're bringing in this sense of conservatism.
(47:14):
You're having babies.
You're getting married first.
You're having children, having lots of children.
and you're being very outspoken in your conservative values.
That gives me so much encouragement and hope as well.
So thank you both for coming on.
Thank you so much for having us.
Absolutely.
Stay right there.
(47:35):
To everyone else, you know the drill.
Click.
on the subscribe button wherever you are listening to this podcast followed by thenotification button followed by leave me a comment and share.
Blessings and Merry Christmas to all of you.
Talk to you soon.
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