November 22, 2024 • 36 mins
Elaine Cheng from Laurier’s Archaeology and Heritage Studies program and 2024 Early Career Excellence winner shares how she guides students through classroom and field experiences that blend real-world challenges with a mix of career-integrated and experiential learning. Elaine emphasizes the importance of both hands-on fieldwork and in-class activities to help students develop critical skills in teamwork, adaptability, and problem-solving. Her inclusive course design invites students to explore personal interests, engage in debates, and learn how to approach ethical issues in heritage studies. By blending theoretical concepts with current events, she shows students how archaeology connects to contemporary issues and how students can meaningfully apply their degrees in the heritage sector.
Laurier’s Donald F. Morgenson Awards for Teaching Excellence honour those who, through their commitment to exemplary teaching, have made significant contributions to the educational experience of Laurier students. Learn more about award-winning teaching at Laurier!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Laurier's Teaching Excellence Conversation series.
I'm Deborah VanNijnatten, academic director of teaching excellence and innovation at Wilfrid Laurier University.
And today I'm with Elaine Cheng from Laurier's Archeology and Heritage Studies program, who received the 2024 Early Career Excellence Award.
(00:21):
Elaine has quickly established herself as a dedicated educator since joining Laurier four years ago.
Her innovative course design and instructional strategies are hallmarked by active, applied,
and experiential learning principles that deeply engage students and enhance their entire educational experience.
(00:42):
Elaine connects students with real world professionals and creates exciting field experiences for students, even while teaching virtually.
And I'm excited to talk to her today.
[uplifting music]
(01:15):
So archeology, the study of archeology is different in that you've got, you know, you've got your in class,
your theory, your conceptual components, but you're also very much learning outside the classroom.
And so you had, you said a field director. What is the position, what does a field director do?
Oh, um, so field directors are the individuals that's in charge of a crew.
(01:35):
A crew can be any owners on a site on a dig, an excavation somewhere.
Yeah, yeah, well, on an excavation site.
And they are in charge of training the students when they first get into the field, as well as kind of the everyday excavations.
Managing and planning where the next unit might be in contact with the project manager that's in charge of the project.
(02:02):
So it's a very, very dynamic and team-oriented profession.
And because of that
you end up with a lot of individuals that you meet that can potentially show you something cool about archeology or something,
something inspiring that that can really guide you in certain directions.
(02:23):
And where were those early field experiences for you? Well, my early experiences were mostly in southern Ontario, actually.
I dug throughout Toronto and actually Waterloo area, Hamilton.
I was with a crew, and a 407 project further in the east as well.
(02:44):
Ah, right.Yeah, when they were expanding
to Peterborough. So a lot of that kind of, you know, you
you got to work with these these individuals who have worked for 20, 30 years in the field.
They have all these experiences, field experience. And you get to work with Indigenous monitors, who,
(03:07):
they have the knowledge, the other side of that, where they can also encourage us and teach us as we're,
as we're, you know, excavating and learning. You get to have a broad perspective and make sure that you're seeing things through different eyes.
Definitely. Because the worst you can do is, and I tell my students that when
(03:30):
when we're in the classroom, is the worst you can do is have one theory and one hypothesis that
you want to focus on and start excavating and then forget about everything else on the field.
So the data is skewed. Anyways, that's kind of one of the things that I find is fascinating about archeology.
So one of the things that's very clear in your dossier is that you love taking your students out in the field.
(03:58):
You like ensuring that they've got that kind of experience.
Can you talk a little bit about what you've been doing with the students,
you know, either here or elsewhere, in terms of getting them out of the classroom?
Yeah, actually, so one of the things I do for just in classes like landscape archeology in general is
(04:20):
is to take them to, or above ground archeology as well, is to take them outside of the class,
just to see kind of the downtown, old downtown.
Right. What kind of structures are we talking about?
Because aboveground archeology, oftentimes students forget that we're not just looking at the ground.
There are structures there for 100 years. And that structure itself
(04:45):
can tell us about the site as well. It may not be as old as what we might be digging or it might be the same time.
But what does that tell us? What potential do we have when we start excavating?
Because archeology is a practice, unfortunately, that's disruptive.
So you want to have a very good idea of what's before you dig.
So you want to have a very good idea of what has happened. Before you dig!
(05:06):
Exactly.
Exactly. Call before you dig. [Laughter]
Recall before you dig that kind of concept is is something that is good to give the students, um, to get get them to start thinking about that.
That kind of concept is something that is good to give the students, to get them to start thinking about that.
Um, and that's something that, you know, textbooks and being in the classroom doesn't really can't really bridge that sometimes.
And that's something that, you know, textbooks and being in the classroom can't really bridge that sometimes.
(05:27):
Right. Um, seeing a building and looking at that design and, and being like, oh, this,
Seeing a building and looking at that design and being like, oh, this,
this looks like a certain time period because it's, you know, Victorian style is so much more fun and interesting.
this looks like a certain time period because it's, you know, Victorian style. It's so much more fun and interesting
Um, and you see a lot more light bulbs going off. Right?
and you see a lot more light bulbs going off, right?
So I was just going to ask, how do the students respond?
The students respond, yeah, yeah. You see a lot of students being like, oh, okay.
(05:49):
You see a lot of students being like, "oh okay."
So this is what we're doing. This is why we're doing it right.
"So this is what we're doing. This is why we're doing it."
It's not just is what archeology. Yeah, yeah, there we go. This is what, because, you know, you you you don't always end up in archeology.
This is what archeology is. Yeah, there we go. This is what it is.
Because, you know, you don't always end up in archeology.
There's a lot of professions out there that archeologists go into.
There's a lot of professions out there that archeologists go into.
We have, um, you know, the archeology that, that I've discussed so far, but there's individuals that go into build.
We have the archeology that I've discussed so far.
(06:12):
But there's individuals that go into built heritage and their job is to look at structures.
And their job is to look at structures. Um, individuals go into on public planning or civil planning as well.
Individuals go into public planning or civil planning as well
And they have to understand the structure and how heritage sites in various different um, types work together on the landscape.
and they have to understand the structure and how heritage sites and various different types work together on the landscape.
(06:32):
Right. And how to kind of protect them and how it can progress for the future generations.
And how to kind of protect them and how it can progress for the future generations.
So that's kind of why I try to take them to and, um, during Covid, um,
So that's kind of why I try to take them, and, during COVID
I had the opportunity for the students to go to Ashbridge Estate in downtown Toronto.
I just I had the opportunity for the students to, um, go, uh, to Ashridge Estate in downtown Toronto.
(06:54):
Right. What was interesting about that was archeology. We don't often find sites, um, archeologists aren't always the individuals who find sites.
What was interesting about that was archeology we don't often find sites.
Archeologists aren't always the individuals who find sites.
And and because some of these findings are accidental.
And because some of these findings are accidental, right.
Yeah. So somebody digging somewhere notices something.
Yeah, so somebody digging somewhere notices something.
Yeah. Right. And and this project was actually for built Heritage Project to maintain and look at how to preserve the
And this project was actually for a built heritage project to maintain and look at how to preserve the foundation
(07:18):
foundation that the stone foundation and what they ended up finding was the first original structure on the site,
that the stone foundation and what they ended up finding was the first original structure on the site,
uh, which people have been looking for for for years.
which people have been looking for years.
Oh, really? Yeah. So because we found something so unique, I thought, and a lot of the students didn't have any opportunity to,
Oh, really? Yeah. So because we found something so unique, I thought,
and a lot of the students didn't have any opportunity to actually start. Because of the pandemic.
to actually, you know, start causing the pandemic.
(07:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Because the so how did you do that then. So, uh, bringing them in contact with people from that.
So how did you do that then? So, bringing them in contact with people from that?
Yeah I heritage, I um, so I was a field director at the time and because the site was just absolutely fascinating, I spoke to the, um, DNA and co, um,
Yeah, I
I was a field director at the time, and because the site was just absolutely fascinating, I spoke to Dena Doroszenko,
(08:02):
the Ontario Heritage Trust archeologist, and to see if we can bring the students on the project because,
the Ontario Heritage Trust archeologist, to see if we can bring the students on the project because,
you know, it's it's always interesting to find something,
you know, it's always interesting to find something,
but to actually also see the connection of that with, with the site, with the building,
but to actually also see the connection of that with the site, with the building,
with what's happening and what might be happening later on and what it tells us to,
with what's happening and what might be happening later on and what it tells us
(08:23):
to the connection to Toronto, like all of that is just, you know, it's mind blowing to to me.
to the connection to Toronto. All of that is just, it's mind blowing to me.
I mean, I I've, I've done, you know, I've been in archeology for a while, but still this is still amazing and fun.
I mean, I've done, I've been in archeology for a while, but this is still amazing and fun.
So, um, I spoke to them, I spoke to the, um, the chair just to make sure that, you know, it's it's okay.
So, I spoke to them. I spoke to the chair just to make sure that it's okay,
And whether or not the students are comfortable as well because it's it is during pandemic,
(08:43):
and whether or not the students are comfortable as well because it is during the pandemic.
um, you know, everybody was had things at their own level of comfort with certain activities.
Everybody had things they were dealing with. Their own level of comfort with certain activities.
Yep. Exactly. So we try to make sure we're always outside.
Yeah, exactly. So we try to make sure we're always outside.
Um, there's, there's, you know, um, when we are in, in a, in a room, everything's the windows,
There's, you know, when we are in a room, everything, the windows and
(09:06):
doors are open, things like that to make sure that they feel comfortable.
doors, are open. Things like that to make sure that they feel comfortable.
But we also want to make sure that they are able to talk to specialists who's already there doing their work.
But we also want to make sure that they are able to talk to specialists who's already there doing their work.
Right? Because, I mean, what other chances are it's it's a great opportunity for them to actually see where their career might take them,
Because what other chances are there? It's a great opportunity for them to actually see where their career might take them,
(09:27):
but also to make informed decisions. Right?
but also to make informed decisions.
I, I feel like I can't, um, I have to be honest with the students they need, I have to make sure that they're informed and they're,
I feel like I have to be honest with the students. I have to make sure that they're informed and they
um, they have the information that they need to continue to think about sort of what comes after.
they have the information that they need to continue. To think about what comes after.
Yes. Right. So how do they forge a pathway? Yeah, for sure.
Yes. Right. So how do they forge a pathway? Yeah, for sure.
(09:50):
But what you were saying about your, you know, having the students make the connections,
But what you were saying about your, you know, having the students make the connections,
bringing them onto an active excavation site and I just I just want to note here,
bringing them onto an active excavation site and I just want to note here so
so you're acting as field director for that in addition to being the course instructor.
you're acting as field director for that in addition to being the course instructor. [Elaine nods]
Okay. So that's what a perfect bridge, right.
Okay. So that's, what a perfect bridge,
(10:10):
The blending of the, you know, the actual applied, um, work and then your, your conceptual theoretical work as well,
the blending of the actual applied work and then your conceptual theoretical work as well.
that is what you described is the perfect example of experiential learning.
That is, what you've described, is the perfect example of experiential learning.
Right. So the direct link to the workplace.
Right, the direct link to the workplace.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's one of those type of ways that you can like I said, light bulbs.
Yeah. And it's one of those type of ways that you can like I said, light bulbs,
(10:37):
Right. And yeah that interest and and you know maybe hopefully I'll see them in the field or in the heritage sector someday.
and that interest and you know maybe hopefully I'll see them in the field or in the heritage sector someday.
And you know that these are these are potentially our future archeologists, future curators and museums future, you know, government ministry of.
These are potentially our future archeologists, future curators and museums, future, you know, government
ministry of, you know? Yeah, and you have a lot of career integrated elements in your classes.
Yeah. You know so yeah. And you have a lot of career integrated elements in your classes and that really stands out in your dossier.
(11:03):
And that really stands out in your dossier. Can you talk a little bit about that because
Can you talk a little bit about that? Because, you know, it's in every course you have sort of a clear pathway through that, that link.
it's in every course you have a clear pathway through that links to what students might be doing afterward.
To what students might be doing afterward.
Actually, that that came from being just wanting to make sure that they're well informed.
Actually that came from being just
wanting to make sure that they're well informed. Because it's one thing to give them a list of jobs that they can find out there.
(11:23):
Yeah, right. Because it's one thing to give them a list of jobs that they can find out there and say, like, these are potential jobs.
Yeah. And say like these are potential jobs, but one of the other thing is where to find them?
Um, but one of the other thing is where to find them. Yeah.
What do I need to get these?
What do I need to get these?
And so one of the assignments I have is to look for jobs that they might be interested in, in, in real, you know, job, uh,
And so one of the assignments I have is to look for jobs that they might be interested in. In real, you know, job,
(11:46):
on the job market and assess what they have, what skills they have that fits this and what skills they have that they need to improve upon.
on the job market and assess what they have, what skills they have that fits this and what skills they have that they need to improve upon.
Right. Once they start thinking about that, they can, you know, they have access to internet.
Once they start thinking about that, they can, they have access to the internet.
They can start looking up to see, you know, do they need a master's degree?
They can start looking up to see, you know, do they need a master's degree?
Where what kind of master's degree do they need? Do they need a MSC?
(12:06):
Where? What kind of master's degree do they need? Do they need a M.Sc?
Do they need an MBA or do they not need a master's degree at all?
Do they need an M.A. or do they not need a master's degree at all?
Right. So for that it I think to prepare them early is is the best way because um, it always you know,
So for that I think to prepare them early is the best way because it always
once students get to the fourth year they're, they're worried about their courses, their exams and then it's almost and suddenly.
once students get to the fourth year they're, they're worried about their courses, their exams and then it's almost
(12:31):
And then suddenly. Exactly. It's upon them.
Exactly. Yeah. It's upon them. Exactly. And then it's a, it's a big now what.
And then it's a big now what?
Right.
What am I going to do with this, this, um, this degree and to get the students to start thinking about this, like second year, third year, to really,
What am I going to do with this degree? And to get the students to start thinking about this like second year, third year, to really
I mean, kind of see what's out there, say, isn't that extra two, three, four years after university just to, to to figure out what, what they can do?
kind of see what's out there? It saves them that extra two, three, four years after university just to figure out what they can do.
(12:57):
Um, that's the in hopes of that. But also, you know, what I think is a lot of it is, you know, um,
That's the, in hopes of that. But also, you know, what I think is a lot of it is
if I can show them some of the pitfalls that they might run into, then it saves them the time to have to figure it out.
if I can show them some of the pitfalls that they might run into, then it saves them the time to have to figure it out.
Like I said, these are future archeologists. And hopefully by saving that time, they can figure out some of the bigger problems that we have, right?
Like I said, these are future archeologists. And hopefully by saving that time, they can figure out some of the bigger problems that we have, right?
(13:22):
Bigger, bigger issues in heritage studies. Um, that instead of having to figure out, okay, where do I go from here?
Bigger, bigger issues in heritage studies. That instead of having to figure out, "okay, where do I go from here?"
They're they're brilliant. These are brilliant young minds.
They're, they're brilliant. These are brilliant young minds.
And if they can apply that to real issues, then, you know, then I think I'm doing something right.
And if they can apply that to real issues, then, you know, then I think I'm doing something right.
(13:43):
I hope, you know, and and I think Lori's competency framework works really well here.
I hope, you know.And I think Laurier's competency framework works really well here,
Right. For the 12 competencies. And it helps give them the language to say this is what I did in all of these classes.
right, for the 12 competencies. And it helps give them the language to say this is what I did in all of these classes.
This is how I'm preparing for, you know,
This is how I'm preparing for, you know,
you're giving them a vision of what are the choices out there and what competencies do I need to, um, to sort of get there.
you're giving them a vision of what are the choices out there and what competencies do I need to sort of get there.
(14:05):
So, um, and if, if I can, I, you know, try to link them to individuals, um,
And if, if I can, I try to link them to individuals,
because fourth year, I have a few students that would email me saying like,
because fourth year, I have a few students that would email me saying like,
hey, I remember looking up this, this job and third year and, you know, do you know anybody or where should I?
"Hey, I remember looking up this, this job in third year and, you know, do you know anybody or where should I...?"
And yeah, it was actually really rewarding to hear that and and be like, okay, you know what?
Yeah. And it was actually really rewarding to hear that and be like, okay, you know what?
(14:28):
If I know the individual. Yeah. Yeah. By all means.
If I know the individual? Yeah, by all means.
You know, and the link to right up. Yeah, yeah. Your course designs quite inclusive for students coming from different backgrounds.
You know talk to them. And link you right up! Your course design is quite inclusive for students coming from different backgrounds.
Right. Um, and some I imagine are really are totally new to the practical side of archeology.
And some I imagine are really are totally new to the practical side of archeology.
Right. So I think we, we get students coming in, they have an idea about, you know, the Indiana Jones idea of archeology is right in Ontario, Canada.
Right?
So I think we, we get students coming in, they have an idea about, you know, the Indiana Jones idea of what archeology is, right, in Ontario, Canada.
(14:52):
Um, so they they really need to be led by the hand in terms of what archeology is really about,
So they really need to be led by the hand in terms of what archeology is really about,
which we you've talked about, how do you build students comfort in the lab and in the field, right.
which you've talked about. How do you build students comfort in the lab and in the field?
They're probably like, they've never done anything like this before.
Probably like, you know, they've never done anything like this before. Yeah, right.
The way that I try to encourage them first in the classroom is there's no stupid questions, you know,
The way that I, I try to encourage them first in the classroom is there's a no stupid questions,
(15:15):
you know, you can talk about, you know, Indiana Jones, Laura Craft if you're passionate about it.
you can talk about Indiana Jones, Lara Croft, if you're passionate about it, great.
Great. But where does it lead you from there. Right.
But where does it lead you from there? Right, right. What's the link?
Right. Like the link wouldn't really please. Yeah. You know.
Yeah. You know. And a lot of times you see that they will say I'm interested in this.
Yeah. And and a lot of times you see that they, they will say I'm interested in, in this.
Right. This maybe ceramics or, or something and, and give them that space to express themselves to,
This maybe ceramics or, or something and give them that space to express themselves to,
(15:39):
to talk to each other because I mean, in archeology where we work as a team.
to talk to each other because in archeology, where we work as a team,
So you have to work with a lot of different individuals. They're very diverse.
you have to work with a lot of different individuals. They're very diverse.
Yes, yes. Yeah. Within Heritage Specialist, we have very different ideas of how certain things should be conserved and what should be protected.
Yes, yes. Even within Heritage Specialists, we have very different ideas of how certain things should be conserved and what should be protected.
So in the classroom, that's a great place to start to kind of start getting to know how to how to work as a team,
So in the classroom, that's a great place to start getting to know how to work as a team,
(16:05):
how to deal with different personalities and characters.
how to deal with different personalities and characters.
I mean, we all, you know, and, and learn from each other, the real workplace.
We all, you know, learn from each other. It's the real workplace.
Yeah, because it's better to learn it now than when your career is on the line.
Yeah, because it's better to learn it now than when your career is on the line.
I tried to kind of get that so that they can really, really get to and get to know each other, too.
I try to kind of get that so that they can really get to know each other too.
(16:26):
Maybe they'll be working on the same crew someday and maybe they'll.
Maybe they'll be working on the same crew someday, and maybe they'll,
So these are things that, well, will help them, um, hopefully before they start working.
so these are things that, well, will help them
hopefully before they start working.
Well, I mean, the feedback of students, you know, as evidenced in your dossier, is that they really like that aspect of it.
The feedback of students as evidenced in your dossier is that they really like that aspect of it.
They like both the teamwork and, you know, that atmosphere of, you know, this is our community, but also just being out in the field.
They like both the teamwork and that atmosphere of this is our community, but also just being out in the field.
(16:53):
Right. Working in the lab. Yeah. You. Yeah. Working in the lab.
Right. Working in the lab. Yeah, yeah. Working in the lab.
One of the things that I think that your course design and your classroom practice also shows,
One of the things that I think that your course design and your classroom practice also shows,
and this is related to what we were just talking about, is universal design for learning practices.
and this is related to what we were just talking about, is universal design for learning practices.
Right. Because you in different ways, you provide students with different pathways through the course, right?
Because you in different ways, you provide students with different pathways through the course, right?
In terms of their assignments and learning through, um, in class activities.
In terms of their assignments and learning through in class activities.
(17:16):
So you're doing all kinds of different in class activities. Um, when did you start doing that and what kind of chewed you on,
So you're doing all kinds of different in-class activities. When did you start doing that and what kind of chewed you on,
or was that an aspect of archeology that you experienced all the way through your studies?
or was that an aspect of archeology that you experienced all the way through your studies?
Actually, to be to be honest, I that was actually inspired by the Covid, strangely enough.
Actually, to be honest, that was actually inspired by COVID, strangely enough.
(17:37):
Um, so I as I was so online initially in teaching um, because interesting I was uh to and Lita as you mentioned, um,
So, online initially? Online teaching because I was a TA and lead TA as you mentioned
in my when I was uh, in my graduate studies and I was, I had the opportunity to teach and tutorials and teach people in face to face.
in my graduate studies and I had the opportunity to teach tutorials and teach people face to face.
And once Covid started, um, there's that shift online.
(17:57):
And once COVID started, there's that shift online.
Right? But I felt like there's a shift in the students as well.
But I felt like there's a shift in the students as well.
The students before. Yeah. Yeah, the students before were very interested in a theoretical in, in kind of the broader concepts.
The students before, the students before were very interested in the theoretical, in kind of the broader concepts.
But once Covid hit, I felt like everybody's more interested in what's going to happen to me next.
But once COVID hit, I felt like everybody's more interested in "what's going to happen to me next."
(18:18):
Right. And what what's going what's what's happening in the world.
And what's going on, what's happening in the world.
And I felt like. What I was doing before wasn't connecting.
And I felt like what I was doing before wasn't connecting.
It was. They're having such a hard time and I don't blame them.
It was, they were having such a hard time and I don't blame them.
They're having such a hard time to deal with just their everyday situation.
They're having such a hard time to deal with just their everyday situation
Um, that, you know. Yeah, I understand right.
that, you know, yeah, I understand, I get it.
(18:41):
I get it, so. So I actually started thinking of ways to expand just the way of teaching to, to kind of help them see, see what's out there.
So I actually started thinking of ways to expand just the way of teaching to kind of help them see what's out there.
Right. To, to to to help them instead of being, you know, felt like they're locked and trapped in an apartment to see where their future can be.
To help them instead of being
felt like they're locked and trapped in an apartment, to see where their future can be because I had to do that during COVID.
(19:01):
Because I had to do that for during Covid.
It was it was hard for everybody. Yeah, right.
It was hard for everybody. Yeah. So that universal design actually started because of COVID.
So, um, that that universal design actually started because of because of Covid and it actually continued to,
It actually continued to kind of work because the students seem to really like it and learned a lot.
to kind of work because the students seemed to really, really like it and learned a lot.
(19:23):
So what were you doing then? What were some of the practices in the classroom?
So what were you doing, then? What were some of the practices in the classroom?
And I know you were training the other Tas to do some of these things as well.
And I know you were training the other TAs to do some of these things as well.
Yeah. So, um, one of a lot of the things that I try to to do is, you know, engage in, in the class materials,
Yeah, a lot of the things that I try to do is engage in
the class materials, but not in the way that we're going to, you know, here's an article,
but not in the way that we're going to, you know, here's an article, we're going to read about it, you know, find the.
(19:45):
we're going to read about it, you know, find the argument, things like that.
They argument, things like that. But but to connect to real world situations, things like residential school.
But to connect to real world situations, things like residential schools, right.
Right. We're reading articles about conservation and heritage and things like that.
We're reading articles about conservation and heritage and things like that.
How does this link to something that is in the news?
How does this link to something that is in the news?
Right. How do we right bridge that because that's essentially what we're we're going to do.
(20:05):
How do we bridge that because that's essentially what we're we're going to do.
And that was actually that it really hit at that time right.
And that was actually that which really hit at that time right.
Yeah, so kind of connecting that and and step away from, you know theory is important,
Yeah. So so kind of connecting that and and step away from, from from you know theory is important.
But to keep the theory within the discussions, I think helped the students kind of really apply that knowledge and,
but to keep the theory within the discussions, I think helped the students to really apply that knowledge and
(20:34):
and think about, okay, so this theory isn't just about people in the past, right.
think about, okay, so this theory isn't just about people in the past.
We're actually talking about some of the sites we're digging right now and some of the, well, very hot topic and major issues in.
We're actually talking about some of the sites we're digging right now and some of the, well, very hot topic and major issues in
Things that happened in the past. It's still we're still trying to resolve now.
things that happened in the past that we're still trying to resolve now.
(20:57):
That's kind of where a lot of these and a lot of kind of the course work came from a lot of us kind of discussing that.
That's kind of where a lot of these and a lot of kind of the course work came from, a lot of us discussing that.
And like I mentioned before, everybody have a different idea of how heritage should be practiced.
And like I mentioned before, everybody has a different idea of how heritage should be practiced.
Bring that out. Talk to each other about these specific topics.
Bring that out. Talk to each other about these specific topics.
I wonder if I can follow up on that, because you have to prepare students to deal with these ethical considerations, right?
I wonder if I can follow up on that because you have to prepare students to deal with these ethical considerations, right?
(21:21):
Like this is very, um, prevalent in the field of archeology, particularly those students who are working in CRM, right?
Like this is very prevalent in the field of archeology, particularly those students who are working in CRM.
Yes. So how do you do that?
Yes. So how do you do that? Right.
So obviously discussions about this, but this is very real.
So obviously discussions about this, but this is very real, right.
As you said, you you worked in, uh, on the 407 expansion and you said you had an indigenous,
As you said, you worked on the 407 expansion and you said you had an Indigenous
(21:46):
uh, facilitator there or many indigenous monitor a monitor.
facilitator there or coordinator. An Indigenous monitor.
Okay. So, you know, how do you prepare students for that? Right.
Okay. So how do you prepare students for that?
Because these are big issues. Yes, they're definitely big issues.
Because these are big issues. Yes, they're definitely big issues.
And and instead of kind of giving them all these big issues and being like, you know, here's something to figure out.
And instead of kind of giving them all these big issues and being like, you know, here's something to figure out,
Um, I trying to kind of step back and let them think about things like, okay, through.
I try to kind of step back and let them think about things like [indiscernible] exactly.
(22:10):
Exactly. I don't want to be the one to give them the answers because.
I don't want to be the one to give them the answers because
They need to figure that out themselves. But a lot of the times.
they need to figure that out themselves. But a lot of the times,
Again, I want to make sure they're informed.
again, I want to make sure they're informed.
So give them I want to give them an idea of what is happening, what has happened, and potential situations out there, and have them work it through.
So I want to give them an idea of what is happening, what has happened, and potential situations out there, and have them work it through.
(22:34):
And sometimes you get some amazing answers that you're kind of like, how come I never thought of that?
And sometimes you get some amazing answers that you're kind of like, how come I never thought of that?
Right. And seeing that perspective, different perspectives.
And seeing that is just, different perspectives, and you're kind of like,
And you're kind of like, well, I'm hoping that what you're saying now can be applied in the future,
well, I'm hoping that what you're saying now can be applied in the future,
and I'm hoping that we can all kind of get an idea from this and, and continue with dealing with all these factors because, you know,
and I'm hoping that we can all kind of get an idea from this and continue dealing with all these factors because
(22:59):
the worst that we can do is just bury our heads in the sand and not deal with it and be like, well,
it's the worst that we can do is just bury our heads in the sand and not deal with it and be like, well, you know,
we're we're um, we're just researching, so we're not going to, you know, you can't that's not possible and that's not realistic.
we're just researching, so we're not gonna. You can't, that's not possible and that's not realistic.
And so I try to kind of give my students that sense of, okay, I'm inviting a, um, Ministry of Culture specialist like, you know, to come and talk.
And so I try to kind of give my students that sense of, okay, I'm inviting a Ministry of Culture specialists to come and talk.
(23:26):
Um, I'm inviting, you know, um, uh, individuals who, uh, descendants and or things like that to kind of bridge that gap,
I'm inviting individuals, descendants, or things like that to bridge that gap.
like we talk about amongst themselves, ourselves and in the classroom.
Like we talk amongst ourselves in the classroom.
But then we also need specialists out there. And I want to let the students know that it's not just I'm now an archeologist, therefore I'm an expert.
But then we also need specialists out there. And I want to let the students know that it's not just I'm now an archeologist, therefore I'm an expert.
(23:50):
You aren't. You may be an expert in an area, but we still have to work with all of these people.
You are. You may be an expert in an area, but we still have to work with all of these people and getting that,
And getting that meeting some of these people, I invited, um, civil engineer who deals with, um, uh,
meeting some of these people. I invited a civil engineer who deals with city planning as well to,
city planning as well to, to come, because that's something most students didn't even think would be related to archeology.
to come, because that's something most students didn't even think would be related to archeology.
(24:14):
But oftentimes you these are people you might have to deal with depending on what jobs you know you end up going into.
But oftentimes these are people you might have to deal with depending on what jobs you end up going into.
Yeah. So you see their slant, you see their ideas and concepts
So you see their land, you see their kind of ideas and, and concepts.
And I think it gives them a sense of, okay, we're this is this is something bigger than just me.
and I think it gives them a sense of, okay, this is something bigger than just me.
(24:34):
My opinion on heritage is important, but it's not the only one.
My opinion on heritage is important, but it's not the only one.
Mhm. And how do I you, you know where I'm standing kind of understand this other person when they're talking about kind of their,
Mhm. And how do I, where I'm standing, understand this other person when they're talking about their,
their ancestral paths and their heritage because yeah these are,
their ancestral past and their heritage because these are
these are important things that they have to, to understand and, and hard things to navigate.
these are important things that they have to understand.Hard things to navigate.
(24:59):
Definitely, definitely. And I mean, we're still trying.
Definitely, definitely. And I mean, we're still trying, a lot of us are still trying to navigate project by project.
A lot of us are still trying to navigate project by project.
Right. Right. Um, and by the individuals you meet and things like that.
Right? Right. And find the individuals you meet and things like that.
So it's something that that hopefully you can't prepare them 100%, but get them to start thinking about it so that,
So it's something that hopefully you can't prepare them 100 percent, but get them to start thinking about it so that,
(25:20):
you know, it's not something that they they start working and they're like, oh no, what is this?
it's not something that they start working and they're like, oh no, what is this?
I, you know, so, um, to kind of prepare them even just to start thinking about it,
To prepare them even just to start thinking about it,
they don't need to start debating with people and, and start, um, you know, um, arguing about this is how it should be done.
they don't need to start debating with people and start arguing about this is how it should be done.
But what I was hoping to get and thinking is, is how to bridge that, how to go beyond, you know, your own concept, this class's concept.
But what I was hoping to get them thinking is, is how to bridge that, how to go beyond your own concept, this class's concept.
(25:47):
Right. And then with other people, individual.
And then with other people individually.
So you're also an East Asian specialist. Yes.
So you're also an East Asian specialist. Yes.
So that brings in a whole bunch of other issues about people going abroad and excavating and what happens to whatever you find.
So that brings in a whole bunch of other issues about people going abroad and excavating and what happens to whatever you find.
Yes. Right. So these are again very difficult issues.
Yes. So these are again very difficult issues.
Yes. And actually that I it's actually funny you brought that up because my, my original experiences in southern Ontario,
Yes. And actually it's funny you brought that up because my original experiences in southern Ontario,
(26:15):
um, gave me kind of this concept of bridging and dealing with, with different individuals.
gave me this concept of bridging and dealing with different individuals.
But when I went to East Asia and to do archeology, uh, specifically in China, and so it was a whole different system.
But when I went to East Asia and to do archeology, specifically in China, it was a whole different system.
Right. And, um, it was it was really challenging.
It was really challenging.
But and that's what governs your activities in that country.
And that's what governs your activities in that country.
(26:36):
So you have to operate under that. Yes, definitely. Yeah.
So you have to operate under that.Yes. Definitely. Different umbrella.
And and by being in that and learning about okay, so this is a different system.
Yeah. And by being in that and learning about
how this is a different system, I'm not here to say this is right or wrong because again my concept of heritage is, you know, a certain ideal.
I, I'm not here to say this is right or wrong because again, my concept of heritage is, is, you know, a certain ideal.
Um, but I need how do I work with these people, right.
But how do I work with these people?
(27:00):
Um, and I mean, I, I ended up learning so much from them and I think they actually had some got
I ended up learning so much from them and I think they actually had some, got
some pretty good ideas for southern archeology and how to what they can do.
some pretty good ideas from southern ON archeology and what they can do.
And it was just a wonderful exchange, um, to, to kind of really, you know, learn from each other.
And it was just a wonderful exchange, to kind of really, you know, learn from each other.
And do students get a taste of that in archeology courses?
And do students get a taste of that in archeology courses
(27:22):
Yeah as well.
at Laurier as well?
Actually I some of some of my courses I talk about what archeology and availabilities are outside of Ontario or outside of North America because,
Actually in some of my courses I talk about what archeology and availabilities are outside of Ontario or outside of North America because
um, my, my master's degree was in England and my PhD, I was in, uh, and in East Asia.
my master's degree was in England and my PhD I was in East Asia.
Yeah. And the archeology, they're all different systems.
And the archeology, tyhey're all different systems.
(27:45):
They're all they're all very different. Um, just method of of how they, how things are done.
They're all very different methods of how things are done.
And a lot of these students are interested in going abroad.
And a lot of these students are interested in going abroad.
Right. They're not limited to just southern Ontario.
They're not limited to just southern Ontario.
A lot of them were talking to me about, well, I would like to go to, to England.
A lot of them were talking to me about, "Well, I would like to go to England."
Yeah, right. So, so how to prepare them for an international archeology becomes another facet.
Yeah. So how to prepare them for an international archeology becomes another facet.
(28:12):
And and how do you do that? Um, because that's sort of, you know, that's the intercultural training, you know, that is it's hard to do at home.
How do you do that? Because that's sort of, you know, that's the intercultural training that is hard to do at home.
Yeah. Right. Yes. And a lot of it. But you want to do some of it before they leave, right?
Yes. And a lot of it. But you want to do some of it before they leave, right?
Yeah. Oh for sure. Yeah, definitely. And a lot of it too is when we go talk about international, there's cultural variation like their own.
Oh for sure, yeah, definitely. And a lot of it too is when we go talk about international, there's cultural variation.
(28:36):
And because of that, um, the best thing I can do is prepare the students for the type of archeology they do.
And because of that, the best thing I can do is prepare the students for the type of archeology they do.
Right, right. One of the first things I will say is, you know, is it academic?
One of the first things I will say is, is it academic?
This is archeology is mostly, you know, excavation and preservation done by academics, uh, by university, um, by research or is it government?
Is archeology mostly excavation and preservation done by academics? By university? By research or is it government?
(29:01):
Right. Just that in itself makes a big difference. Or is a CRM very private sector?
Just that in itself makes a big difference. Or is a CRM, a very private sector?
Now these three different sectors can have very different goals.
Now these three different sectors can have very different goals
And to start but also right, you know, how do you navigate that to let them know that okay,
and to start but also how do you navigate that? To let them know that
if you're interested in a master's degree, where do you find the artifacts.
if you're interested in a master's degree, where do you find the artifacts?
(29:24):
Your supervisor will help. But, you know, have an idea of what's out there, who is doing these excavations.
Your supervisor will help. But have an idea of what's out there. Who is doing these excavations?
If you're interested in CRM?
If you're interested in CRM?
Well, and outside of Ontario, outside of of Canada, um, what kind of agencies do you need to look at to to work as an archeologist?
Well, and outside of Ontario, outside of Canada, what kind of agencies do you need to look at to work as an archeologist?
Right. They may not have CRM company. Yeah.
They may not have a CRM company. Yeah.
(29:46):
Um, and because of that, you might be preparing yourself to work in a CRM environment, and then you go to that country and be like, oh, okay.
And because of that, you might be preparing yourself to work in a CRM environment, and then you go to that country and be like, oh, okay.
That was definitely not what I was expecting. And to save them that time and give them, you know, that prepare them properly.
That was definitely not what I was expecting. And to save them that time, and give them...Yeah, prepare them properly.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Because bridging that in is hard.
Yes. Because bridging that is hard.
(30:07):
It can be quite challenging. And um, you know, it it can really, really make a student feel isolating too if they are not familiar with the culture.
It can be quite challenging. And it can really, really make a student feel isolated too if they are not familiar with the culture.
Right.
Right.
And they have archeology background, but they realize this isn't this is a completely different area of archeology that they weren't prepared for.
And they have an archeology background, but they realize this is a completely different area of archeology that they weren't prepared for.
(30:28):
Um, it's interesting that, you know, all the pathways of our conversation lead back to career.
It's interesting that all the pathways of our conversation lead back to career.
Yeah, right. You're very focused on preparing them for what happened.
You're very focused on preparing them for what happens.
It would be wonderful to see these students actually out there.
It would be wonderful to see these students actually out there.
Yeah. Out there. I'm sure you know many who are there's right.
Yeah. Out there. I'm sure you know many who are. There's quite a few actually.
There's there's a few actually there is quite a few from Laurier.
There's quite a few from Laurier. That's,
(30:49):
That's. Yes. You know, digging in the field and you see some of the things that they're doing, you're like, oh my goodness this is great.
you know, digging in the field and you see some of the things that they're doing, you're like, oh my goodness, this is great!
That's exactly what I wanted. Yeah. Yes. Yeah yeah yeah. You're you're figuring it out right.
That's exactly what I wanted. Yes. Yeah. You're figuring it out right.
Like you always want, want the next generation to be better.
Like you always want the next generation to be better.
We want more for our children, all our students.
We want more for our children, for our students.
(31:10):
It's the same thing we want them to do even better than we did.
It's the same thing, right? We want them to do even better than we did.
Yeah. Um, I can't help but think when I look across your courses and all the extra things, the experiential learning,
Yeah. I can't help but think when I look across your courses and all the extra things, the experiential learning,
the applied activities in class, the career integrated learning, all of these things that are layered across all of your courses.
the applied activities in-class, the career integrated learning, all of these things that are layered across all of your courses.
How do you keep this up? This is a lot of extra work to to not only design a course, but train students in the methods, modes,
(31:30):
How do you keep this up? This is a lot of extra work to not only design a course that trains students in the methods modes,
theories, debate, but also to ensure they get some kind of field exposure experience, whatever.
theories, debate, but also to ensure they get some kind of field exposure or experience, whatever.
How is that sustainable for you? Right? That's a lot of work.
How is that sustainable for you? That's a lot of work.
(31:52):
It it is. And it can be a little overwhelming sometimes.
It is. And it can be a little overwhelming sometimes.
But a lot of times I kind of. Kind of think to myself like, what would I have benefited?
But a lot of times I kind of think to myself, what would I have benefited from?
I had some amazing mentors. However, there's also gaps, right?
I had some amazing mentors. However, there's also gaps.
And I had various mentors from different backgrounds.
And I had various mentors from different backgrounds.
(32:14):
But there's of course, there are certain things that you just can't prepare for.
But there's, of course, there are certain things that you just can't prepare for.
And there are certain things that I, I really hope somebody told me.
And there are certain things that I really hope somebody told me.
Right. And and if I can be that person to give them that information, I think all the best for, for them.
And if I can be that person to give them that information, I think all the best for them.
But yeah, I, I, I think, okay, this might sound cliche or what we're not.
But I think, okay, this might sound cliche or not,
(32:35):
But I feel like as, as an instructor as, as a, an individuals that that's teaching, um,
But I feel like as an instructor, as an individual that's teaching,
it's kind of my responsibility to make sure that they are prepared. That's not cliche.
it's kind of my responsibility to, to make sure that they are prepared and they can not cliche.
Okay. Yeah. No, no. And yes, it's sometimes it's a lot of a lot of work.
Okay. Yeah. No, no. And yes, it's sometimes it's a lot of work.
(32:56):
And I do kind of a lot of it too.
And I do kind of, a lot of it to
I try to get the students to, to be a part of that discussion so that it's, it's their learning experience, not mine.
I try to get the students to be a part of that discussion so that it's their learning experience, not mine.
It's not I'm not just there to, to tell you, well, this is what you have to learn.
I'm not just there to tell you, "well, this is what you have to learn."
But what do you want to learn, right. What what can you learn that I can help you with?
But what do you want to learn? What what can you learn that I can help you with?
(33:20):
Um, if you can succeed and and learn what you need.
If you can succeed and learn what you need,
All the best. Yeah. For it. Right. So. Yeah. So will then what's next for you for in terms of your teaching.
all the best for it. So well then what's next for you for in terms of your teaching?
Well so what are the when you, when you look back and you think, okay, what would I have benefited from.
So what are the, when you look back and you think, okay, what would I have benefited from?
What else can I integrate into my courses? What's next for you? Well, um,
What else can I integrate into my courses? What's next for you? Well,
(33:41):
one of the things is I am planning a field school for spring so that I can officially take
one of the things is I am planning a field school for spring so that I can officially take
students for instead of the one week during Covid for the five weeks so they can have.
students for instead of the one week during COVID for the five weeks so they can have
Oh, here's where will the field um, well, it's probably going to be in uh, like GTA area.
a full experience. Where will the field experience be? It's probably going to be in the GTA [greater Toronto] area.
(34:01):
Yeah. But yeah, so that, you know, they can gain experience and in a way we, they can have kind of that.
Yeah, great. So that they can gain experience and in a way we, they can have kind of that
That just not just the field experience. But if we can see if there is a CRM company digging around, we'll go for a visit.
not just the field experience. But if we can see if there is a CRM company digging around,
we'll go for a visit. Yeah.
Yeah, right. We'll go visit, um, the, the different, um, conservation areas, things like that, that that's the ultimate of going beyond the classroom.
We'll go visit, the different conservation areas, things like that. That's the ultimate of going beyond the classroom.
(34:27):
Um, that that would be wonderful. And it it it just I mean, I learned as I was taking them out for, for the one week that you love it.
That would be wonderful. And I learned as I was taking them out for the one week that...You love it!
Yes, I love it. I can tell you love it. You're so excited. It's it's it was just so much fun and.
Yes, I love it! I can tell you love it. You're so excited about it.
It was just so much fun. And to kind of help them and to see that.
Yeah, to to kind of help help them and to see that.
Okay. This this is, this is working and or.
Okay, this is working and or
(34:50):
Okay. This this is kind of I thought I explained it, I thought they understood.
this is kind of I thought I explained it, I thought they understood.
But there's something I need to change here. Yeah, right.
But there's something I need to change here, right?
There's always improvement and it's always a different group. Right.
There's always improvement and it's always a different group.
And so um, that's that's definitely one direction that, that I'm, I'm really looking forward to.
And so that's definitely one direction that I'm really looking forward to.
And would that be, uh, field school for more senior students? Probably with a little bit more.
And would that be field school for more senior students? Probably with a little bit more...?
(35:12):
Probably less. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing more rewarding than than finding and and a piece of history and then kind of realized that,
There's nothing more rewarding than finding a piece of history and then kind of realize that,
hey, it's this isn't just, you know, a of pottery.
"hey, this isn't just, you know, uh, pottery."
This isn't just, you know, part of somebody's heritage.
This isn't just, you know?This is part of somebody's heritage.
Exact some part of their history. Exactly. This is who they are.
Exactly. Some part of their history. This is who they are.
(35:33):
Yeah. And I'm simply here to to learn from them.
Yeah, and I'm simply here to learn from them.
Right. And to learn from the past, but also just to learn.
And to learn from the past, but also just to learn.
And so it's it's just it's just wonderful.
And so it's just wonderful.
And I actually hope the other thing is hope to get inspired, continue to, to kind of teach and actually be inspired by the Laurier students.
And I actually hope the other thing is hope to get inspired, continue to, to teach and actually be inspired by the Laurier students.
(35:56):
It's just just so rewarding. Yeah, they're good students.
It's just so rewarding. They're good students.
Yeah. And that's it. That that's a good note. And that is your enthusiasm about the students.
And that's a good note to end on, your enthusiasm about the Laurier students.Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much for joining me here today.You're welcome.
Thank you so much for joining me here today. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
Thank you for having me. My thanks to Elaine Cheng for joining me today, and I hope you will join me again
My thanks to Alan Chang for joining me today, and I hope you will join me again for more conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
for our conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
(36:20):
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
Welcome to Laurier's Teaching Excellence Conversation series.
I'm Deborah VanNijnatten, academic director of teaching excellence and innovation at Wilfrid Laurier University.
And today I'm with Elaine Cheng from Laurier's Archeology and Heritage Studies program, who received the 2024 Early Career Excellence Award.
(00:21):
Elaine has quickly established herself as a dedicated educator since joining Laurier four years ago.
Her innovative course design and instructional strategies are hallmarked by active, applied,
and experiential learning principles that deeply engage students and enhance their entire educational experience.
(00:42):
Elaine connects students with real world professionals and creates exciting field experiences for students, even while teaching virtually.
And I'm excited to talk to her today.
[uplifting music]
(01:15):
So archeology, the study of archeology is different in that you've got, you know, you've got your in class,
your theory, your conceptual components, but you're also very much learning outside the classroom.
And so you had, you said a field director. What is the position, what does a field director do?
Oh, um, so field directors are the individuals that's in charge of a crew.
(01:35):
A crew can be any owners on a site on a dig, an excavation somewhere.
Yeah, yeah, well, on an excavation site.
And they are in charge of training the students when they first get into the field, as well as kind of the everyday excavations.
Managing and planning where the next unit might be in contact with the project manager that's in charge of the project.
(02:02):
So it's a very, very dynamic and team-oriented profession.
And because of that
you end up with a lot of individuals that you meet that can potentially show you something cool about archeology or something,
something inspiring that that can really guide you in certain directions.
(02:23):
And where were those early field experiences for you? Well, my early experiences were mostly in southern Ontario, actually.
I dug throughout Toronto and actually Waterloo area, Hamilton.
I was with a crew, and a 407 project further in the east as well.
(02:44):
Ah, right.Yeah, when they were expanding
to Peterborough. So a lot of that kind of, you know, you
you got to work with these these individuals who have worked for 20, 30 years in the field.
They have all these experiences, field experience. And you get to work with Indigenous monitors, who,
(03:07):
they have the knowledge, the other side of that, where they can also encourage us and teach us as we're,
as we're, you know, excavating and learning. You get to have a broad perspective and make sure that you're seeing things through different eyes.
Definitely. Because the worst you can do is, and I tell my students that when
(03:30):
when we're in the classroom, is the worst you can do is have one theory and one hypothesis that
you want to focus on and start excavating and then forget about everything else on the field.
So the data is skewed. Anyways, that's kind of one of the things that I find is fascinating about archeology.
So one of the things that's very clear in your dossier is that you love taking your students out in the field.
(03:58):
You like ensuring that they've got that kind of experience.
Can you talk a little bit about what you've been doing with the students,
you know, either here or elsewhere, in terms of getting them out of the classroom?
Yeah, actually, so one of the things I do for just in classes like landscape archeology in general is
(04:20):
is to take them to, or above ground archeology as well, is to take them outside of the class,
just to see kind of the downtown, old downtown.
Right. What kind of structures are we talking about?
Because aboveground archeology, oftentimes students forget that we're not just looking at the ground.
There are structures there for 100 years. And that structure itself
(04:45):
can tell us about the site as well. It may not be as old as what we might be digging or it might be the same time.
But what does that tell us? What potential do we have when we start excavating?
Because archeology is a practice, unfortunately, that's disruptive.
So you want to have a very good idea of what's before you dig.
So you want to have a very good idea of what has happened. Before you dig!
(05:06):
Exactly.
Exactly. Call before you dig. [Laughter]
Recall before you dig that kind of concept is is something that is good to give the students, um, to get get them to start thinking about that.
That kind of concept is something that is good to give the students, to get them to start thinking about that.
Um, and that's something that, you know, textbooks and being in the classroom doesn't really can't really bridge that sometimes.
And that's something that, you know, textbooks and being in the classroom can't really bridge that sometimes.
(05:27):
Right. Um, seeing a building and looking at that design and, and being like, oh, this,
Seeing a building and looking at that design and being like, oh, this,
this looks like a certain time period because it's, you know, Victorian style is so much more fun and interesting.
this looks like a certain time period because it's, you know, Victorian style. It's so much more fun and interesting
Um, and you see a lot more light bulbs going off. Right?
and you see a lot more light bulbs going off, right?
So I was just going to ask, how do the students respond?
The students respond, yeah, yeah. You see a lot of students being like, oh, okay.
(05:49):
You see a lot of students being like, "oh okay."
So this is what we're doing. This is why we're doing it right.
"So this is what we're doing. This is why we're doing it."
It's not just is what archeology. Yeah, yeah, there we go. This is what, because, you know, you you you don't always end up in archeology.
This is what archeology is. Yeah, there we go. This is what it is.
Because, you know, you don't always end up in archeology.
There's a lot of professions out there that archeologists go into.
There's a lot of professions out there that archeologists go into.
We have, um, you know, the archeology that, that I've discussed so far, but there's individuals that go into build.
We have the archeology that I've discussed so far.
(06:12):
But there's individuals that go into built heritage and their job is to look at structures.
And their job is to look at structures. Um, individuals go into on public planning or civil planning as well.
Individuals go into public planning or civil planning as well
And they have to understand the structure and how heritage sites in various different um, types work together on the landscape.
and they have to understand the structure and how heritage sites and various different types work together on the landscape.
(06:32):
Right. And how to kind of protect them and how it can progress for the future generations.
And how to kind of protect them and how it can progress for the future generations.
So that's kind of why I try to take them to and, um, during Covid, um,
So that's kind of why I try to take them, and, during COVID
I had the opportunity for the students to go to Ashbridge Estate in downtown Toronto.
I just I had the opportunity for the students to, um, go, uh, to Ashridge Estate in downtown Toronto.
(06:54):
Right. What was interesting about that was archeology. We don't often find sites, um, archeologists aren't always the individuals who find sites.
What was interesting about that was archeology we don't often find sites.
Archeologists aren't always the individuals who find sites.
And and because some of these findings are accidental.
And because some of these findings are accidental, right.
Yeah. So somebody digging somewhere notices something.
Yeah, so somebody digging somewhere notices something.
Yeah. Right. And and this project was actually for built Heritage Project to maintain and look at how to preserve the
And this project was actually for a built heritage project to maintain and look at how to preserve the foundation
(07:18):
foundation that the stone foundation and what they ended up finding was the first original structure on the site,
that the stone foundation and what they ended up finding was the first original structure on the site,
uh, which people have been looking for for for years.
which people have been looking for years.
Oh, really? Yeah. So because we found something so unique, I thought, and a lot of the students didn't have any opportunity to,
Oh, really? Yeah. So because we found something so unique, I thought,
and a lot of the students didn't have any opportunity to actually start. Because of the pandemic.
to actually, you know, start causing the pandemic.
(07:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Because the so how did you do that then. So, uh, bringing them in contact with people from that.
So how did you do that then? So, bringing them in contact with people from that?
Yeah I heritage, I um, so I was a field director at the time and because the site was just absolutely fascinating, I spoke to the, um, DNA and co, um,
Yeah, I
I was a field director at the time, and because the site was just absolutely fascinating, I spoke to Dena Doroszenko,
(08:02):
the Ontario Heritage Trust archeologist, and to see if we can bring the students on the project because,
the Ontario Heritage Trust archeologist, to see if we can bring the students on the project because,
you know, it's it's always interesting to find something,
you know, it's always interesting to find something,
but to actually also see the connection of that with, with the site, with the building,
but to actually also see the connection of that with the site, with the building,
with what's happening and what might be happening later on and what it tells us to,
with what's happening and what might be happening later on and what it tells us
(08:23):
to the connection to Toronto, like all of that is just, you know, it's mind blowing to to me.
to the connection to Toronto. All of that is just, it's mind blowing to me.
I mean, I I've, I've done, you know, I've been in archeology for a while, but still this is still amazing and fun.
I mean, I've done, I've been in archeology for a while, but this is still amazing and fun.
So, um, I spoke to them, I spoke to the, um, the chair just to make sure that, you know, it's it's okay.
So, I spoke to them. I spoke to the chair just to make sure that it's okay,
And whether or not the students are comfortable as well because it's it is during pandemic,
(08:43):
and whether or not the students are comfortable as well because it is during the pandemic.
um, you know, everybody was had things at their own level of comfort with certain activities.
Everybody had things they were dealing with. Their own level of comfort with certain activities.
Yep. Exactly. So we try to make sure we're always outside.
Yeah, exactly. So we try to make sure we're always outside.
Um, there's, there's, you know, um, when we are in, in a, in a room, everything's the windows,
There's, you know, when we are in a room, everything, the windows and
(09:06):
doors are open, things like that to make sure that they feel comfortable.
doors, are open. Things like that to make sure that they feel comfortable.
But we also want to make sure that they are able to talk to specialists who's already there doing their work.
But we also want to make sure that they are able to talk to specialists who's already there doing their work.
Right? Because, I mean, what other chances are it's it's a great opportunity for them to actually see where their career might take them,
Because what other chances are there? It's a great opportunity for them to actually see where their career might take them,
(09:27):
but also to make informed decisions. Right?
but also to make informed decisions.
I, I feel like I can't, um, I have to be honest with the students they need, I have to make sure that they're informed and they're,
I feel like I have to be honest with the students. I have to make sure that they're informed and they
um, they have the information that they need to continue to think about sort of what comes after.
they have the information that they need to continue. To think about what comes after.
Yes. Right. So how do they forge a pathway? Yeah, for sure.
Yes. Right. So how do they forge a pathway? Yeah, for sure.
(09:50):
But what you were saying about your, you know, having the students make the connections,
But what you were saying about your, you know, having the students make the connections,
bringing them onto an active excavation site and I just I just want to note here,
bringing them onto an active excavation site and I just want to note here so
so you're acting as field director for that in addition to being the course instructor.
you're acting as field director for that in addition to being the course instructor. [Elaine nods]
Okay. So that's what a perfect bridge, right.
Okay. So that's, what a perfect bridge,
(10:10):
The blending of the, you know, the actual applied, um, work and then your, your conceptual theoretical work as well,
the blending of the actual applied work and then your conceptual theoretical work as well.
that is what you described is the perfect example of experiential learning.
That is, what you've described, is the perfect example of experiential learning.
Right. So the direct link to the workplace.
Right, the direct link to the workplace.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's one of those type of ways that you can like I said, light bulbs.
Yeah. And it's one of those type of ways that you can like I said, light bulbs,
(10:37):
Right. And yeah that interest and and you know maybe hopefully I'll see them in the field or in the heritage sector someday.
and that interest and you know maybe hopefully I'll see them in the field or in the heritage sector someday.
And you know that these are these are potentially our future archeologists, future curators and museums future, you know, government ministry of.
These are potentially our future archeologists, future curators and museums, future, you know, government
ministry of, you know? Yeah, and you have a lot of career integrated elements in your classes.
Yeah. You know so yeah. And you have a lot of career integrated elements in your classes and that really stands out in your dossier.
(11:03):
And that really stands out in your dossier. Can you talk a little bit about that because
Can you talk a little bit about that? Because, you know, it's in every course you have sort of a clear pathway through that, that link.
it's in every course you have a clear pathway through that links to what students might be doing afterward.
To what students might be doing afterward.
Actually, that that came from being just wanting to make sure that they're well informed.
Actually that came from being just
wanting to make sure that they're well informed. Because it's one thing to give them a list of jobs that they can find out there.
(11:23):
Yeah, right. Because it's one thing to give them a list of jobs that they can find out there and say, like, these are potential jobs.
Yeah. And say like these are potential jobs, but one of the other thing is where to find them?
Um, but one of the other thing is where to find them. Yeah.
What do I need to get these?
What do I need to get these?
And so one of the assignments I have is to look for jobs that they might be interested in, in, in real, you know, job, uh,
And so one of the assignments I have is to look for jobs that they might be interested in. In real, you know, job,
(11:46):
on the job market and assess what they have, what skills they have that fits this and what skills they have that they need to improve upon.
on the job market and assess what they have, what skills they have that fits this and what skills they have that they need to improve upon.
Right. Once they start thinking about that, they can, you know, they have access to internet.
Once they start thinking about that, they can, they have access to the internet.
They can start looking up to see, you know, do they need a master's degree?
They can start looking up to see, you know, do they need a master's degree?
Where what kind of master's degree do they need? Do they need a MSC?
(12:06):
Where? What kind of master's degree do they need? Do they need a M.Sc?
Do they need an MBA or do they not need a master's degree at all?
Do they need an M.A. or do they not need a master's degree at all?
Right. So for that it I think to prepare them early is is the best way because um, it always you know,
So for that I think to prepare them early is the best way because it always
once students get to the fourth year they're, they're worried about their courses, their exams and then it's almost and suddenly.
once students get to the fourth year they're, they're worried about their courses, their exams and then it's almost
(12:31):
And then suddenly. Exactly. It's upon them.
Exactly. Yeah. It's upon them. Exactly. And then it's a, it's a big now what.
And then it's a big now what?
Right.
What am I going to do with this, this, um, this degree and to get the students to start thinking about this, like second year, third year, to really,
What am I going to do with this degree? And to get the students to start thinking about this like second year, third year, to really
I mean, kind of see what's out there, say, isn't that extra two, three, four years after university just to, to to figure out what, what they can do?
kind of see what's out there? It saves them that extra two, three, four years after university just to figure out what they can do.
(12:57):
Um, that's the in hopes of that. But also, you know, what I think is a lot of it is, you know, um,
That's the, in hopes of that. But also, you know, what I think is a lot of it is
if I can show them some of the pitfalls that they might run into, then it saves them the time to have to figure it out.
if I can show them some of the pitfalls that they might run into, then it saves them the time to have to figure it out.
Like I said, these are future archeologists. And hopefully by saving that time, they can figure out some of the bigger problems that we have, right?
Like I said, these are future archeologists. And hopefully by saving that time, they can figure out some of the bigger problems that we have, right?
(13:22):
Bigger, bigger issues in heritage studies. Um, that instead of having to figure out, okay, where do I go from here?
Bigger, bigger issues in heritage studies. That instead of having to figure out, "okay, where do I go from here?"
They're they're brilliant. These are brilliant young minds.
They're, they're brilliant. These are brilliant young minds.
And if they can apply that to real issues, then, you know, then I think I'm doing something right.
And if they can apply that to real issues, then, you know, then I think I'm doing something right.
(13:43):
I hope, you know, and and I think Lori's competency framework works really well here.
I hope, you know.And I think Laurier's competency framework works really well here,
Right. For the 12 competencies. And it helps give them the language to say this is what I did in all of these classes.
right, for the 12 competencies. And it helps give them the language to say this is what I did in all of these classes.
This is how I'm preparing for, you know,
This is how I'm preparing for, you know,
you're giving them a vision of what are the choices out there and what competencies do I need to, um, to sort of get there.
you're giving them a vision of what are the choices out there and what competencies do I need to sort of get there.
(14:05):
So, um, and if, if I can, I, you know, try to link them to individuals, um,
And if, if I can, I try to link them to individuals,
because fourth year, I have a few students that would email me saying like,
because fourth year, I have a few students that would email me saying like,
hey, I remember looking up this, this job and third year and, you know, do you know anybody or where should I?
"Hey, I remember looking up this, this job in third year and, you know, do you know anybody or where should I...?"
And yeah, it was actually really rewarding to hear that and and be like, okay, you know what?
Yeah. And it was actually really rewarding to hear that and be like, okay, you know what?
(14:28):
If I know the individual. Yeah. Yeah. By all means.
If I know the individual? Yeah, by all means.
You know, and the link to right up. Yeah, yeah. Your course designs quite inclusive for students coming from different backgrounds.
You know talk to them. And link you right up! Your course design is quite inclusive for students coming from different backgrounds.
Right. Um, and some I imagine are really are totally new to the practical side of archeology.
And some I imagine are really are totally new to the practical side of archeology.
Right. So I think we, we get students coming in, they have an idea about, you know, the Indiana Jones idea of archeology is right in Ontario, Canada.
Right?
So I think we, we get students coming in, they have an idea about, you know, the Indiana Jones idea of what archeology is, right, in Ontario, Canada.
(14:52):
Um, so they they really need to be led by the hand in terms of what archeology is really about,
So they really need to be led by the hand in terms of what archeology is really about,
which we you've talked about, how do you build students comfort in the lab and in the field, right.
which you've talked about. How do you build students comfort in the lab and in the field?
They're probably like, they've never done anything like this before.
Probably like, you know, they've never done anything like this before. Yeah, right.
The way that I try to encourage them first in the classroom is there's no stupid questions, you know,
The way that I, I try to encourage them first in the classroom is there's a no stupid questions,
(15:15):
you know, you can talk about, you know, Indiana Jones, Laura Craft if you're passionate about it.
you can talk about Indiana Jones, Lara Croft, if you're passionate about it, great.
Great. But where does it lead you from there. Right.
But where does it lead you from there? Right, right. What's the link?
Right. Like the link wouldn't really please. Yeah. You know.
Yeah. You know. And a lot of times you see that they will say I'm interested in this.
Yeah. And and a lot of times you see that they, they will say I'm interested in, in this.
Right. This maybe ceramics or, or something and, and give them that space to express themselves to,
This maybe ceramics or, or something and give them that space to express themselves to,
(15:39):
to talk to each other because I mean, in archeology where we work as a team.
to talk to each other because in archeology, where we work as a team,
So you have to work with a lot of different individuals. They're very diverse.
you have to work with a lot of different individuals. They're very diverse.
Yes, yes. Yeah. Within Heritage Specialist, we have very different ideas of how certain things should be conserved and what should be protected.
Yes, yes. Even within Heritage Specialists, we have very different ideas of how certain things should be conserved and what should be protected.
So in the classroom, that's a great place to start to kind of start getting to know how to how to work as a team,
So in the classroom, that's a great place to start getting to know how to work as a team,
(16:05):
how to deal with different personalities and characters.
how to deal with different personalities and characters.
I mean, we all, you know, and, and learn from each other, the real workplace.
We all, you know, learn from each other. It's the real workplace.
Yeah, because it's better to learn it now than when your career is on the line.
Yeah, because it's better to learn it now than when your career is on the line.
I tried to kind of get that so that they can really, really get to and get to know each other, too.
I try to kind of get that so that they can really get to know each other too.
(16:26):
Maybe they'll be working on the same crew someday and maybe they'll.
Maybe they'll be working on the same crew someday, and maybe they'll,
So these are things that, well, will help them, um, hopefully before they start working.
so these are things that, well, will help them
hopefully before they start working.
Well, I mean, the feedback of students, you know, as evidenced in your dossier, is that they really like that aspect of it.
The feedback of students as evidenced in your dossier is that they really like that aspect of it.
They like both the teamwork and, you know, that atmosphere of, you know, this is our community, but also just being out in the field.
They like both the teamwork and that atmosphere of this is our community, but also just being out in the field.
(16:53):
Right. Working in the lab. Yeah. You. Yeah. Working in the lab.
Right. Working in the lab. Yeah, yeah. Working in the lab.
One of the things that I think that your course design and your classroom practice also shows,
One of the things that I think that your course design and your classroom practice also shows,
and this is related to what we were just talking about, is universal design for learning practices.
and this is related to what we were just talking about, is universal design for learning practices.
Right. Because you in different ways, you provide students with different pathways through the course, right?
Because you in different ways, you provide students with different pathways through the course, right?
In terms of their assignments and learning through, um, in class activities.
In terms of their assignments and learning through in class activities.
(17:16):
So you're doing all kinds of different in class activities. Um, when did you start doing that and what kind of chewed you on,
So you're doing all kinds of different in-class activities. When did you start doing that and what kind of chewed you on,
or was that an aspect of archeology that you experienced all the way through your studies?
or was that an aspect of archeology that you experienced all the way through your studies?
Actually, to be to be honest, I that was actually inspired by the Covid, strangely enough.
Actually, to be honest, that was actually inspired by COVID, strangely enough.
(17:37):
Um, so I as I was so online initially in teaching um, because interesting I was uh to and Lita as you mentioned, um,
So, online initially? Online teaching because I was a TA and lead TA as you mentioned
in my when I was uh, in my graduate studies and I was, I had the opportunity to teach and tutorials and teach people in face to face.
in my graduate studies and I had the opportunity to teach tutorials and teach people face to face.
And once Covid started, um, there's that shift online.
(17:57):
And once COVID started, there's that shift online.
Right? But I felt like there's a shift in the students as well.
But I felt like there's a shift in the students as well.
The students before. Yeah. Yeah, the students before were very interested in a theoretical in, in kind of the broader concepts.
The students before, the students before were very interested in the theoretical, in kind of the broader concepts.
But once Covid hit, I felt like everybody's more interested in what's going to happen to me next.
But once COVID hit, I felt like everybody's more interested in "what's going to happen to me next."
(18:18):
Right. And what what's going what's what's happening in the world.
And what's going on, what's happening in the world.
And I felt like. What I was doing before wasn't connecting.
And I felt like what I was doing before wasn't connecting.
It was. They're having such a hard time and I don't blame them.
It was, they were having such a hard time and I don't blame them.
They're having such a hard time to deal with just their everyday situation.
They're having such a hard time to deal with just their everyday situation
Um, that, you know. Yeah, I understand right.
that, you know, yeah, I understand, I get it.
(18:41):
I get it, so. So I actually started thinking of ways to expand just the way of teaching to, to kind of help them see, see what's out there.
So I actually started thinking of ways to expand just the way of teaching to kind of help them see what's out there.
Right. To, to to to help them instead of being, you know, felt like they're locked and trapped in an apartment to see where their future can be.
To help them instead of being
felt like they're locked and trapped in an apartment, to see where their future can be because I had to do that during COVID.
(19:01):
Because I had to do that for during Covid.
It was it was hard for everybody. Yeah, right.
It was hard for everybody. Yeah. So that universal design actually started because of COVID.
So, um, that that universal design actually started because of because of Covid and it actually continued to,
It actually continued to kind of work because the students seem to really like it and learned a lot.
to kind of work because the students seemed to really, really like it and learned a lot.
(19:23):
So what were you doing then? What were some of the practices in the classroom?
So what were you doing, then? What were some of the practices in the classroom?
And I know you were training the other Tas to do some of these things as well.
And I know you were training the other TAs to do some of these things as well.
Yeah. So, um, one of a lot of the things that I try to to do is, you know, engage in, in the class materials,
Yeah, a lot of the things that I try to do is engage in
the class materials, but not in the way that we're going to, you know, here's an article,
but not in the way that we're going to, you know, here's an article, we're going to read about it, you know, find the.
(19:45):
we're going to read about it, you know, find the argument, things like that.
They argument, things like that. But but to connect to real world situations, things like residential school.
But to connect to real world situations, things like residential schools, right.
Right. We're reading articles about conservation and heritage and things like that.
We're reading articles about conservation and heritage and things like that.
How does this link to something that is in the news?
How does this link to something that is in the news?
Right. How do we right bridge that because that's essentially what we're we're going to do.
(20:05):
How do we bridge that because that's essentially what we're we're going to do.
And that was actually that it really hit at that time right.
And that was actually that which really hit at that time right.
Yeah, so kind of connecting that and and step away from, you know theory is important,
Yeah. So so kind of connecting that and and step away from, from from you know theory is important.
But to keep the theory within the discussions, I think helped the students kind of really apply that knowledge and,
but to keep the theory within the discussions, I think helped the students to really apply that knowledge and
(20:34):
and think about, okay, so this theory isn't just about people in the past, right.
think about, okay, so this theory isn't just about people in the past.
We're actually talking about some of the sites we're digging right now and some of the, well, very hot topic and major issues in.
We're actually talking about some of the sites we're digging right now and some of the, well, very hot topic and major issues in
Things that happened in the past. It's still we're still trying to resolve now.
things that happened in the past that we're still trying to resolve now.
(20:57):
That's kind of where a lot of these and a lot of kind of the course work came from a lot of us kind of discussing that.
That's kind of where a lot of these and a lot of kind of the course work came from, a lot of us discussing that.
And like I mentioned before, everybody have a different idea of how heritage should be practiced.
And like I mentioned before, everybody has a different idea of how heritage should be practiced.
Bring that out. Talk to each other about these specific topics.
Bring that out. Talk to each other about these specific topics.
I wonder if I can follow up on that, because you have to prepare students to deal with these ethical considerations, right?
I wonder if I can follow up on that because you have to prepare students to deal with these ethical considerations, right?
(21:21):
Like this is very, um, prevalent in the field of archeology, particularly those students who are working in CRM, right?
Like this is very prevalent in the field of archeology, particularly those students who are working in CRM.
Yes. So how do you do that?
Yes. So how do you do that? Right.
So obviously discussions about this, but this is very real.
So obviously discussions about this, but this is very real, right.
As you said, you you worked in, uh, on the 407 expansion and you said you had an indigenous,
As you said, you worked on the 407 expansion and you said you had an Indigenous
(21:46):
uh, facilitator there or many indigenous monitor a monitor.
facilitator there or coordinator. An Indigenous monitor.
Okay. So, you know, how do you prepare students for that? Right.
Okay. So how do you prepare students for that?
Because these are big issues. Yes, they're definitely big issues.
Because these are big issues. Yes, they're definitely big issues.
And and instead of kind of giving them all these big issues and being like, you know, here's something to figure out.
And instead of kind of giving them all these big issues and being like, you know, here's something to figure out,
Um, I trying to kind of step back and let them think about things like, okay, through.
I try to kind of step back and let them think about things like [indiscernible] exactly.
(22:10):
Exactly. I don't want to be the one to give them the answers because.
I don't want to be the one to give them the answers because
They need to figure that out themselves. But a lot of the times.
they need to figure that out themselves. But a lot of the times,
Again, I want to make sure they're informed.
again, I want to make sure they're informed.
So give them I want to give them an idea of what is happening, what has happened, and potential situations out there, and have them work it through.
So I want to give them an idea of what is happening, what has happened, and potential situations out there, and have them work it through.
(22:34):
And sometimes you get some amazing answers that you're kind of like, how come I never thought of that?
And sometimes you get some amazing answers that you're kind of like, how come I never thought of that?
Right. And seeing that perspective, different perspectives.
And seeing that is just, different perspectives, and you're kind of like,
And you're kind of like, well, I'm hoping that what you're saying now can be applied in the future,
well, I'm hoping that what you're saying now can be applied in the future,
and I'm hoping that we can all kind of get an idea from this and, and continue with dealing with all these factors because, you know,
and I'm hoping that we can all kind of get an idea from this and continue dealing with all these factors because
(22:59):
the worst that we can do is just bury our heads in the sand and not deal with it and be like, well,
it's the worst that we can do is just bury our heads in the sand and not deal with it and be like, well, you know,
we're we're um, we're just researching, so we're not going to, you know, you can't that's not possible and that's not realistic.
we're just researching, so we're not gonna. You can't, that's not possible and that's not realistic.
And so I try to kind of give my students that sense of, okay, I'm inviting a, um, Ministry of Culture specialist like, you know, to come and talk.
And so I try to kind of give my students that sense of, okay, I'm inviting a Ministry of Culture specialists to come and talk.
(23:26):
Um, I'm inviting, you know, um, uh, individuals who, uh, descendants and or things like that to kind of bridge that gap,
I'm inviting individuals, descendants, or things like that to bridge that gap.
like we talk about amongst themselves, ourselves and in the classroom.
Like we talk amongst ourselves in the classroom.
But then we also need specialists out there. And I want to let the students know that it's not just I'm now an archeologist, therefore I'm an expert.
But then we also need specialists out there. And I want to let the students know that it's not just I'm now an archeologist, therefore I'm an expert.
(23:50):
You aren't. You may be an expert in an area, but we still have to work with all of these people.
You are. You may be an expert in an area, but we still have to work with all of these people and getting that,
And getting that meeting some of these people, I invited, um, civil engineer who deals with, um, uh,
meeting some of these people. I invited a civil engineer who deals with city planning as well to,
city planning as well to, to come, because that's something most students didn't even think would be related to archeology.
to come, because that's something most students didn't even think would be related to archeology.
(24:14):
But oftentimes you these are people you might have to deal with depending on what jobs you know you end up going into.
But oftentimes these are people you might have to deal with depending on what jobs you end up going into.
Yeah. So you see their slant, you see their ideas and concepts
So you see their land, you see their kind of ideas and, and concepts.
And I think it gives them a sense of, okay, we're this is this is something bigger than just me.
and I think it gives them a sense of, okay, this is something bigger than just me.
(24:34):
My opinion on heritage is important, but it's not the only one.
My opinion on heritage is important, but it's not the only one.
Mhm. And how do I you, you know where I'm standing kind of understand this other person when they're talking about kind of their,
Mhm. And how do I, where I'm standing, understand this other person when they're talking about their,
their ancestral paths and their heritage because yeah these are,
their ancestral past and their heritage because these are
these are important things that they have to, to understand and, and hard things to navigate.
these are important things that they have to understand.Hard things to navigate.
(24:59):
Definitely, definitely. And I mean, we're still trying.
Definitely, definitely. And I mean, we're still trying, a lot of us are still trying to navigate project by project.
A lot of us are still trying to navigate project by project.
Right. Right. Um, and by the individuals you meet and things like that.
Right? Right. And find the individuals you meet and things like that.
So it's something that that hopefully you can't prepare them 100%, but get them to start thinking about it so that,
So it's something that hopefully you can't prepare them 100 percent, but get them to start thinking about it so that,
(25:20):
you know, it's not something that they they start working and they're like, oh no, what is this?
it's not something that they start working and they're like, oh no, what is this?
I, you know, so, um, to kind of prepare them even just to start thinking about it,
To prepare them even just to start thinking about it,
they don't need to start debating with people and, and start, um, you know, um, arguing about this is how it should be done.
they don't need to start debating with people and start arguing about this is how it should be done.
But what I was hoping to get and thinking is, is how to bridge that, how to go beyond, you know, your own concept, this class's concept.
But what I was hoping to get them thinking is, is how to bridge that, how to go beyond your own concept, this class's concept.
(25:47):
Right. And then with other people, individual.
And then with other people individually.
So you're also an East Asian specialist. Yes.
So you're also an East Asian specialist. Yes.
So that brings in a whole bunch of other issues about people going abroad and excavating and what happens to whatever you find.
So that brings in a whole bunch of other issues about people going abroad and excavating and what happens to whatever you find.
Yes. Right. So these are again very difficult issues.
Yes. So these are again very difficult issues.
Yes. And actually that I it's actually funny you brought that up because my, my original experiences in southern Ontario,
Yes. And actually it's funny you brought that up because my original experiences in southern Ontario,
(26:15):
um, gave me kind of this concept of bridging and dealing with, with different individuals.
gave me this concept of bridging and dealing with different individuals.
But when I went to East Asia and to do archeology, uh, specifically in China, and so it was a whole different system.
But when I went to East Asia and to do archeology, specifically in China, it was a whole different system.
Right. And, um, it was it was really challenging.
It was really challenging.
But and that's what governs your activities in that country.
And that's what governs your activities in that country.
(26:36):
So you have to operate under that. Yes, definitely. Yeah.
So you have to operate under that.Yes. Definitely. Different umbrella.
And and by being in that and learning about okay, so this is a different system.
Yeah. And by being in that and learning about
how this is a different system, I'm not here to say this is right or wrong because again my concept of heritage is, you know, a certain ideal.
I, I'm not here to say this is right or wrong because again, my concept of heritage is, is, you know, a certain ideal.
Um, but I need how do I work with these people, right.
But how do I work with these people?
(27:00):
Um, and I mean, I, I ended up learning so much from them and I think they actually had some got
I ended up learning so much from them and I think they actually had some, got
some pretty good ideas for southern archeology and how to what they can do.
some pretty good ideas from southern ON archeology and what they can do.
And it was just a wonderful exchange, um, to, to kind of really, you know, learn from each other.
And it was just a wonderful exchange, to kind of really, you know, learn from each other.
And do students get a taste of that in archeology courses?
And do students get a taste of that in archeology courses
(27:22):
Yeah as well.
at Laurier as well?
Actually I some of some of my courses I talk about what archeology and availabilities are outside of Ontario or outside of North America because,
Actually in some of my courses I talk about what archeology and availabilities are outside of Ontario or outside of North America because
um, my, my master's degree was in England and my PhD, I was in, uh, and in East Asia.
my master's degree was in England and my PhD I was in East Asia.
Yeah. And the archeology, they're all different systems.
And the archeology, tyhey're all different systems.
(27:45):
They're all they're all very different. Um, just method of of how they, how things are done.
They're all very different methods of how things are done.
And a lot of these students are interested in going abroad.
And a lot of these students are interested in going abroad.
Right. They're not limited to just southern Ontario.
They're not limited to just southern Ontario.
A lot of them were talking to me about, well, I would like to go to, to England.
A lot of them were talking to me about, "Well, I would like to go to England."
Yeah, right. So, so how to prepare them for an international archeology becomes another facet.
Yeah. So how to prepare them for an international archeology becomes another facet.
(28:12):
And and how do you do that? Um, because that's sort of, you know, that's the intercultural training, you know, that is it's hard to do at home.
How do you do that? Because that's sort of, you know, that's the intercultural training that is hard to do at home.
Yeah. Right. Yes. And a lot of it. But you want to do some of it before they leave, right?
Yes. And a lot of it. But you want to do some of it before they leave, right?
Yeah. Oh for sure. Yeah, definitely. And a lot of it too is when we go talk about international, there's cultural variation like their own.
Oh for sure, yeah, definitely. And a lot of it too is when we go talk about international, there's cultural variation.
(28:36):
And because of that, um, the best thing I can do is prepare the students for the type of archeology they do.
And because of that, the best thing I can do is prepare the students for the type of archeology they do.
Right, right. One of the first things I will say is, you know, is it academic?
One of the first things I will say is, is it academic?
This is archeology is mostly, you know, excavation and preservation done by academics, uh, by university, um, by research or is it government?
Is archeology mostly excavation and preservation done by academics? By university? By research or is it government?
(29:01):
Right. Just that in itself makes a big difference. Or is a CRM very private sector?
Just that in itself makes a big difference. Or is a CRM, a very private sector?
Now these three different sectors can have very different goals.
Now these three different sectors can have very different goals
And to start but also right, you know, how do you navigate that to let them know that okay,
and to start but also how do you navigate that? To let them know that
if you're interested in a master's degree, where do you find the artifacts.
if you're interested in a master's degree, where do you find the artifacts?
(29:24):
Your supervisor will help. But, you know, have an idea of what's out there, who is doing these excavations.
Your supervisor will help. But have an idea of what's out there. Who is doing these excavations?
If you're interested in CRM?
If you're interested in CRM?
Well, and outside of Ontario, outside of of Canada, um, what kind of agencies do you need to look at to to work as an archeologist?
Well, and outside of Ontario, outside of Canada, what kind of agencies do you need to look at to work as an archeologist?
Right. They may not have CRM company. Yeah.
They may not have a CRM company. Yeah.
(29:46):
Um, and because of that, you might be preparing yourself to work in a CRM environment, and then you go to that country and be like, oh, okay.
And because of that, you might be preparing yourself to work in a CRM environment, and then you go to that country and be like, oh, okay.
That was definitely not what I was expecting. And to save them that time and give them, you know, that prepare them properly.
That was definitely not what I was expecting. And to save them that time, and give them...Yeah, prepare them properly.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Because bridging that in is hard.
Yes. Because bridging that is hard.
(30:07):
It can be quite challenging. And um, you know, it it can really, really make a student feel isolating too if they are not familiar with the culture.
It can be quite challenging. And it can really, really make a student feel isolated too if they are not familiar with the culture.
Right.
Right.
And they have archeology background, but they realize this isn't this is a completely different area of archeology that they weren't prepared for.
And they have an archeology background, but they realize this is a completely different area of archeology that they weren't prepared for.
(30:28):
Um, it's interesting that, you know, all the pathways of our conversation lead back to career.
It's interesting that all the pathways of our conversation lead back to career.
Yeah, right. You're very focused on preparing them for what happened.
You're very focused on preparing them for what happens.
It would be wonderful to see these students actually out there.
It would be wonderful to see these students actually out there.
Yeah. Out there. I'm sure you know many who are there's right.
Yeah. Out there. I'm sure you know many who are. There's quite a few actually.
There's there's a few actually there is quite a few from Laurier.
There's quite a few from Laurier. That's,
(30:49):
That's. Yes. You know, digging in the field and you see some of the things that they're doing, you're like, oh my goodness this is great.
you know, digging in the field and you see some of the things that they're doing, you're like, oh my goodness, this is great!
That's exactly what I wanted. Yeah. Yes. Yeah yeah yeah. You're you're figuring it out right.
That's exactly what I wanted. Yes. Yeah. You're figuring it out right.
Like you always want, want the next generation to be better.
Like you always want the next generation to be better.
We want more for our children, all our students.
We want more for our children, for our students.
(31:10):
It's the same thing we want them to do even better than we did.
It's the same thing, right? We want them to do even better than we did.
Yeah. Um, I can't help but think when I look across your courses and all the extra things, the experiential learning,
Yeah. I can't help but think when I look across your courses and all the extra things, the experiential learning,
the applied activities in class, the career integrated learning, all of these things that are layered across all of your courses.
the applied activities in-class, the career integrated learning, all of these things that are layered across all of your courses.
How do you keep this up? This is a lot of extra work to to not only design a course, but train students in the methods, modes,
(31:30):
How do you keep this up? This is a lot of extra work to not only design a course that trains students in the methods modes,
theories, debate, but also to ensure they get some kind of field exposure experience, whatever.
theories, debate, but also to ensure they get some kind of field exposure or experience, whatever.
How is that sustainable for you? Right? That's a lot of work.
How is that sustainable for you? That's a lot of work.
(31:52):
It it is. And it can be a little overwhelming sometimes.
It is. And it can be a little overwhelming sometimes.
But a lot of times I kind of. Kind of think to myself like, what would I have benefited?
But a lot of times I kind of think to myself, what would I have benefited from?
I had some amazing mentors. However, there's also gaps, right?
I had some amazing mentors. However, there's also gaps.
And I had various mentors from different backgrounds.
And I had various mentors from different backgrounds.
(32:14):
But there's of course, there are certain things that you just can't prepare for.
But there's, of course, there are certain things that you just can't prepare for.
And there are certain things that I, I really hope somebody told me.
And there are certain things that I really hope somebody told me.
Right. And and if I can be that person to give them that information, I think all the best for, for them.
And if I can be that person to give them that information, I think all the best for them.
But yeah, I, I, I think, okay, this might sound cliche or what we're not.
But I think, okay, this might sound cliche or not,
(32:35):
But I feel like as, as an instructor as, as a, an individuals that that's teaching, um,
But I feel like as an instructor, as an individual that's teaching,
it's kind of my responsibility to make sure that they are prepared. That's not cliche.
it's kind of my responsibility to, to make sure that they are prepared and they can not cliche.
Okay. Yeah. No, no. And yes, it's sometimes it's a lot of a lot of work.
Okay. Yeah. No, no. And yes, it's sometimes it's a lot of work.
(32:56):
And I do kind of a lot of it too.
And I do kind of, a lot of it to
I try to get the students to, to be a part of that discussion so that it's, it's their learning experience, not mine.
I try to get the students to be a part of that discussion so that it's their learning experience, not mine.
It's not I'm not just there to, to tell you, well, this is what you have to learn.
I'm not just there to tell you, "well, this is what you have to learn."
But what do you want to learn, right. What what can you learn that I can help you with?
But what do you want to learn? What what can you learn that I can help you with?
(33:20):
Um, if you can succeed and and learn what you need.
If you can succeed and learn what you need,
All the best. Yeah. For it. Right. So. Yeah. So will then what's next for you for in terms of your teaching.
all the best for it. So well then what's next for you for in terms of your teaching?
Well so what are the when you, when you look back and you think, okay, what would I have benefited from.
So what are the, when you look back and you think, okay, what would I have benefited from?
What else can I integrate into my courses? What's next for you? Well, um,
What else can I integrate into my courses? What's next for you? Well,
(33:41):
one of the things is I am planning a field school for spring so that I can officially take
one of the things is I am planning a field school for spring so that I can officially take
students for instead of the one week during Covid for the five weeks so they can have.
students for instead of the one week during COVID for the five weeks so they can have
Oh, here's where will the field um, well, it's probably going to be in uh, like GTA area.
a full experience. Where will the field experience be? It's probably going to be in the GTA [greater Toronto] area.
(34:01):
Yeah. But yeah, so that, you know, they can gain experience and in a way we, they can have kind of that.
Yeah, great. So that they can gain experience and in a way we, they can have kind of that
That just not just the field experience. But if we can see if there is a CRM company digging around, we'll go for a visit.
not just the field experience. But if we can see if there is a CRM company digging around,
we'll go for a visit. Yeah.
Yeah, right. We'll go visit, um, the, the different, um, conservation areas, things like that, that that's the ultimate of going beyond the classroom.
We'll go visit, the different conservation areas, things like that. That's the ultimate of going beyond the classroom.
(34:27):
Um, that that would be wonderful. And it it it just I mean, I learned as I was taking them out for, for the one week that you love it.
That would be wonderful. And I learned as I was taking them out for the one week that...You love it!
Yes, I love it. I can tell you love it. You're so excited. It's it's it was just so much fun and.
Yes, I love it! I can tell you love it. You're so excited about it.
It was just so much fun. And to kind of help them and to see that.
Yeah, to to kind of help help them and to see that.
Okay. This this is, this is working and or.
Okay, this is working and or
(34:50):
Okay. This this is kind of I thought I explained it, I thought they understood.
this is kind of I thought I explained it, I thought they understood.
But there's something I need to change here. Yeah, right.
But there's something I need to change here, right?
There's always improvement and it's always a different group. Right.
There's always improvement and it's always a different group.
And so um, that's that's definitely one direction that, that I'm, I'm really looking forward to.
And so that's definitely one direction that I'm really looking forward to.
And would that be, uh, field school for more senior students? Probably with a little bit more.
And would that be field school for more senior students? Probably with a little bit more...?
(35:12):
Probably less. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing more rewarding than than finding and and a piece of history and then kind of realized that,
There's nothing more rewarding than finding a piece of history and then kind of realize that,
hey, it's this isn't just, you know, a of pottery.
"hey, this isn't just, you know, uh, pottery."
This isn't just, you know, part of somebody's heritage.
This isn't just, you know?This is part of somebody's heritage.
Exact some part of their history. Exactly. This is who they are.
Exactly. Some part of their history. This is who they are.
(35:33):
Yeah. And I'm simply here to to learn from them.
Yeah, and I'm simply here to learn from them.
Right. And to learn from the past, but also just to learn.
And to learn from the past, but also just to learn.
And so it's it's just it's just wonderful.
And so it's just wonderful.
And I actually hope the other thing is hope to get inspired, continue to, to kind of teach and actually be inspired by the Laurier students.
And I actually hope the other thing is hope to get inspired, continue to, to teach and actually be inspired by the Laurier students.
(35:56):
It's just just so rewarding. Yeah, they're good students.
It's just so rewarding. They're good students.
Yeah. And that's it. That that's a good note. And that is your enthusiasm about the students.
And that's a good note to end on, your enthusiasm about the Laurier students.Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much for joining me here today.You're welcome.
Thank you so much for joining me here today. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
Thank you for having me. My thanks to Elaine Cheng for joining me today, and I hope you will join me again
My thanks to Alan Chang for joining me today, and I hope you will join me again for more conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
for our conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
(36:20):
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
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