May 9, 2025 • 42 mins
2024 Hoffman-Little Award winner Elizabeth Mitchell from Laurier’s Faculty of Music shares her journey into music therapy and the connective power of music in helping people express emotions, memories, and experiences.
She discusses the importance of improvisation, versatility, and self-awareness, skills that allow practitioners to meet clients where they are and engage them in dynamic ways, whether in hospitals or community settings. She prepares students for clinical settings by integrating theory with hands-on experience, ensuring students develop both technical musical skills and interpersonal competencies to best serve the diverse clients that these students will support. A passionate advocate for decolonizing music therapy, Elizabeth shares how she works to amplify Indigenous voices and ensure that diverse musical traditions are valued in musical therapy practices. She weaves these perspectives throughout the curriculum to foster a more holistic and inclusive approach to music therapy education that leaves a lasting impact on both students and community members.
Laurier’s Donald F. Morgenson Awards for Teaching Excellence honour those who, through their commitment to exemplary teaching, have made significant contributions to the educational experience of Laurier students. Learn more about award-winning teaching at Laurier.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Laurier's Teaching Excellence Conversation series.
I'm Deborah VanNijnatten, academic director of teaching excellence and innovation at Wilfrid Laurier University.
And today I'm with Elizabeth Mitchell from the Faculty of Music, who received the 2024 Hoffmann-Little Award for faculty,
which recognizes excellence in teaching, research, and community engagement.
(00:23):
All things that certainly describe Elizabeth. As the Bachelor of Music Therapy Coordinator.
Elizabeth has been instrumental in developing Laurier's Music Therapy program to forge deep connections with community health
care organizations that create learning opportunities for students and enrich the lives of members of our community.
(00:45):
Through her scholarly work, she continues to contribute to the understanding and application of music therapy in diverse settings.
She prepares students for clinical settings with compassion, mentorship, support, and a dedication to diversity.
And I'm excited to talk with her today.
[uplifting music plays]
(01:24):
Well, Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining me here today.
And I want to start by noting that in your dossier,
it's clear that you always wanted to pursue a career in music, but you also always wanted to teach.
But how did you get to music therapy? So indeed, I did always want to do music.
(01:44):
And in fact, even predating the interest in a career in music was certainly a career in teaching.
- That is like my earliest memories. I think it was first, and then music a little bit later.- So teaching was first, and then music.
- but still both in childhood, like pre-high school.- [Debora] I was going to say, you did music all the way though. - [Elizabeth] Yeah, those were decisions I made
and so music teaching was an obvious combination of those two things.
(02:06):
And I had also considered going the performance route, although I think teaching always won out.
But in my undergrad, I decided to do an undergrad in music rather than going straight into music therapy, for example,
because I wanted to have that time to hone my musical skills specifically and kind of to keep my options open.
(02:27):
I knew about music therapy, but also was really interested in going to do a Bachelor of Education afterwards.
And I would say, part of it was,
as a pianist in my undergrad, spending 2 to 3 hours a day in the practice room by myself during that time and through high school, too.
But then in my undergrad. And realizing that it was just really important to me that my musical
(02:52):
career involved more interaction with people, quite honestly, and certainly artists are of service to society in a profound way.
And so what I'm about to say isn't saying that, performing artists aren't being of service, but for me,
having a really tangible interaction with people on a daily basis was really important to me.
(03:13):
And of being service to communities in some way that felt very tangible.
- Doing music with other people.- So to me that was. Doing music with other people, rather than spending quite as much time on my own,
honing my craft, which is still an important part of being a music therapist.
But yeah, I wanted that application, I guess, of the craft.
So then it was like, okay, teaching or therapy and the two experiences I often will tell students or others when they ask me this question.
(03:38):
One was, I think I had an appreciation of music's therapeutic potential from a young age,
having gone through some hard stuff in my teenage years and really learning as a pianist in particular, I also think through singing,
just the ways that I could channel really difficult emotions through music and the way that music could, like,
hold that for me, even if I felt like I wasn't in a place to be able to maybe share what was going on with many people.
(04:04):
So I had that relationship to music where I felt like music was like caring for me, from a young age.
And then the other piece of that was, my grandmother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's when I was in high school.
- [Debora] Right. - And I would visit her. She was always so proud of me as a musician.
And, would come to piano recitals and band concerts and stuff like that.
(04:29):
And when she lost her capacity to speak,
when I was in my late teenage years. I would go and play music for her at the facility where she was living,
and she could still sing, even though she could no longer speak.
So music could still, like she could still use music to communicate. To communicate with others.
Correct. And not only her, but I was, you know, I was 16, 17 years old and I would go and play music at this facility.
(04:53):
And, I mean, not everyone. Music isn't like a magical cure for people.
I'm not trying to say that, but it wasn't just my grandma. It was many other folks at that facility that I was watching.
I was like, oh, a minute ago you were just really, really tired and not engaging with others.
And now I'm sitting at the piano playing and you're paying attention and communicative and often singing and even singing words.
(05:18):
And my little teenage brain was just like, I need to learn more about about this.
So that experience was very impactful and I think was one of the,
one of the things that really led me to, to pursue music therapy as well.
Was there music therapy course in your your undergrad because you did a Bachelor of Music, right?
- No, there was no course. So I knew almost nothing about it.- Ok, I'm so interested with how people get pulled in.
(05:41):
I knew almost nothing about it.
I had looked through, I think, some course calendars, you know, when I was a high school student looking at, you know, university options.
And so I knew music therapy was a degree option here at Laurier at the time, but I seriously knew almost nothing about it.
I think that high school students now, a lot of them do know more about it.
Music therapy is still small and still growing, but is certainly more well known than, I finished high school in 2001.
(06:06):
So, more well known than it was in 2001.
But, yes, I think still I knew almost nothing.
But I did know that there was this field that would tap into music's therapeutic potential to work towards various goals with people,
and that was what I saw going on with my grandma.
And I think that's what I saw or felt in myself when I was playing the piano and playing at a high level, musically, but it kind of wasn't about that.
(06:31):
It was more about the emotive content and the way that I could relate to the music.
And so I just felt like, I want to learn more about this.
And also, again, going back to that idea of being service to others in some way,
that maybe this is something that I can introduce in someone else's life that can be helpful for them too.
- So then graduate work.- So then I came to Laurier.
(06:53):
- So I came to Laurier in 2005 to start my Masters of Music Therapy.- It's almost, next year, it'll be 20 years.
- And in terms of my journey at Laurier, I have been here since 2005.- That's amazing!
So I did two years as a student and I'm really, really grateful.
(07:16):
My research supervisor, Dr. Colin Andrew Lee, encouraged me to apply as a clinical supervisor and as a course instructor,
and it had never occurred to me that a) to do a PhD or b) to be a university instructor. Like that was never a career goal.
And it honestly would have never occurred to me even to look at job postings at a university.
(07:36):
- So you were, because you thought you'd be working in the community? - Yeah, totally.
And I did end up doing that for a time. But Dr. Lee invited me to apply for a posting.
I was successful, and so in tandem to starting my first music therapy job,
which was at a local mental health facility, I also was teaching a course here in the fall of 2007, and I loved it.
(08:00):
- That started my time as a contract teaching faculty member- I feel like saying the rest is history.
- But no, we have some more to talk about.- Yeah, so I have been,
even though I've only been in this current role since 2020, I have been continuously employed by Laurier since fall of 2007.
- So I've been around a while.- So in terms of thinking about your classroom then, so that's your first experience teaching.
(08:22):
You have since taught across the full range of undergrad, plus graduate, plus,
you know, clinical supervision, helping students as they go out into the community.
What does your classroom look like? Because in your dossier, you note, there's always music, but sometimes there's hands on music,
(08:42):
and sometimes there's more reflective activities or different kinds of theoretical exercises.
Right? Or, you know, sort of talk to us a little bit about your classroom and how students navigate that.
Yeah. So I would say it's both and hopefully we're, I mean,
we're doing our best in the program to link the the practice with the theory. Primarily today
(09:03):
I'll be talking about the bachelor's program because that is the program I coordinate.
Although I do teach, as you alluded to, I do teach graduate students as well in our Master of Music therapy program.
But I'll probably focus more on the bachelor program.
And in both programs, there are courses that are meant to be very practically focused and courses that are meant to be theoretically focused.
(09:24):
So I think a student would know showing up to a course,
whether or not it's the focus is going to be on the practice or the focus is going to be on the theory.
Although I would say in an ideal setting, we're doing both all the time.
It's clear from your dossier that you are trying to trying to do all the time.
Certainly.
So in the bachelor's program, we have two in third and fourth year, two courses that are called clinical musicianship courses.
(09:50):
So the idea or, that students are, I mean, they're certainly developing their musical skills further, but even more importantly,
they're learning how to specifically hone and tailor and adapt those musical skills to those those clinical or health care or therapy situations.
So, how do I, you know, leave space in my music for somebody who needs a little bit more, more time to respond?
(10:16):
Or how do I create a sense of safety and a music making experience for somebody who's feeling extraordinarily anxious?
There's so many different examples of that, but really focusing on how we can use our music creatively,
expressively, and with as much versatility as possible, because we're going to be working with a very wide range of humans out in the world.
(10:37):
So how can I make music in a way that is going to hopefully, you know,
be able to meet and match people where they are and with whatever they need.
- So that's what those practical courses are for. - So our students, they're playing instruments.
- They're singing? All of the above. - All of the above. Yeah.
- And how many students in the class? I'm trying to get a sense in my mind, for those third year classes.- Usually a maximum of 20.
(11:00):
More like 15 in recent years, but between 15 to 20 students so that we can really dig in to like role playing those scenarios.
- So we're improvising together. Using familiar music, playing music, playing instruments, singing, songwriting.- Wonderful.
So doing those really practical things that music therapists would do with a client,
(11:21):
our students are hopefully getting all of those practical skills in the classroom, first and foremost.
And to go back to your question. I'm always striving to also help students to be able to identify what theory is underlying.
So if I make this decision in an improvization or in a songwriting activity, well, why am I doing it?
(11:42):
What's my underlying theory or philosophy? What's the goal I'm working towards?
- So very reflexive.- So I'm not just very I'm not just making music because it sounds good,
even though it might sound good and that's great, but like, what are we doing in this therapy session and why?
So that's the connection from the practice to the theory and vice versa.
There's those courses that are more theoretically focused, but ideally also always encouraging the students to make the connection.
(12:06):
So if we're talking about, you know, theories from psychology, humanistic theory versus psychodynamic theory as examples, well,
then what does that look like in in music in terms of your decision making as a therapist in a session and reflexivity, totally.
So that students are increasingly able to articulate what their own philosophy of practice is and make those connect those dots for themselves.
(12:30):
So if I identify with these theories, then how do my actions line up with with that theory?
Yeah. And how do I reflect? So I know when it's going well and what I need to keep working.
And we all need to do that as therapists, myself included.
You know, no matter how experienced you are,
any good therapist is always reflecting and hopefully getting better at their craft and able to identify when something didn't go as planned.
(12:53):
Yeah, so let me let me pick up on that. Because then what are the key qualities of a music therapist?
And how are you, obviously you're doing this role playing in your,
you know, writing music or making music and thinking about, you know, what do I do in this scenario?
But how are you leading them toward or what goal are you leading toward at the end of those, especially the musicianship classes?
(13:18):
It's an interesting mix in terms of those ideal qualities.
I would say it's the musical skills and then also the therapeutic or the interpersonal skills.
Do you go into the classroom, you're like, okay, that person's got it in spades.
- Right? And that person we've gotta, you know.- Not sure if I should answer that question on the video [laughs].
- I mean, I audition all the students who come into the music therapy program and I.- Oh, so they do auditions?
(13:44):
Oh, yes. And the second year to become a music therapy student,
they do an additional audition and interview.
So I know when they come in and what their strengths are and what those areas are that they're going to need to still work on.
- Can I ask how many students audition? - It varies year to year,
- I'm just thinking, you're knowing these students as they're coming in.
(14:08):
- How many students is that? - Well, because it's at the end of second year.
At that time, the students know whether or not they want to go into therapy, direction or education or performance or history.
It depends on the year but 25, 25-ish.
So, it's not a super competitive audition.
I wouldn't say at the end of second year, because I always tell students I'm working with in terms of a recruitment setting,
(14:34):
get yourself into our Bachelor of Music. Like, that's the biggest hoop to jump through.
And then assuming you're doing well in your classes and your musicianship skills are continuing to grow in those first and second years,
you're probably going to be okay at at that audition at the end of second year.
But, and then we're taking between 15 to 20 students a year.
(14:55):
But it depends on the numbers. And so that's after second year.
And then they're coming into third year doing those core courses.
- Yeah. Exactly. - And there's clinical practice as well. Or is that fourth year?
Both. They start right away. Sometimes a student maybe auditions at the end of second year.
And I say here's all the potential you have. And also because those placements start in September of third year
(15:18):
- I need you to take an extra year.- Oh you want them ready, ya.
To really hone your skills because you need to be ready in third year,
of course, to be still mentored and to grow,
you don't have to be perfect, but to be comfortable enough to go out into a community setting and start leading sessions with supervision,
but to start leading sessions right away.
So that must be a real focus of your classroom practices,
(15:40):
is getting people comfortable, making themselves vulnerable, working through difficult dynamics.
- Yeah, definitely. - Therapy obviously addresses some very challenging issues.
Absolutely. Yeah, that's really important. And important that students who want to be therapists are,
in a place where they're okay talking about talking about hard things.
(16:03):
Okay relating to people who maybe have different experiences or different perspectives on things than than they do.
Because our clients are going to come from all walks of life.
So, yeah, being prepared to have hard conversations.
And also as a music therapist, sometimes you are making music and not talking.
So it's not that you're going to be having a heavy conversation with everybody.All the time.
(16:23):
Not at all. But things might get heavy and you certainly need to be prepared for that.
- That's really different than just being a musician, right? - [Elizabeth] It's really different. - [Debora] Your an undergrad in music,
And then, that's a different thing to be focusing on in your classroom.
Yeah, I remember, I mean, I remember thinking as a Master of Music Therapy student here,
just that change in focus and in the academic setting having to bring,
(16:48):
perhaps just a more whole version of myself, even into the classroom, because we were constantly, its that self-reflection, self-reflection,
and a lot of emotional content, a lot of really heavy content coming up in class, which is certainly different than a Bachelor of Music.
For sure. So, our students need to be ready for that.
And if we tiptoe around it in the classroom, it's going to like slam them when they get out into a workplace.
(17:14):
So it's really important that we prepare students with those skills and, ready them for the hard parts of the job.
Your dossier really emphasizes the importance of inclusivity, right? In your teaching practice and in your classroom.
So what does that look like in your classroom? How do you ensure that, you create an inclusive environment for your students?
(17:35):
Yeah, I mean, it's such a big one for sure. And,
partially, it's around really tangible things in terms of strategies or, you know, modes of assessment, for example.
Some of it's about my intentionality around language and, what what we're talking about, whose voices were making space for each room.
(17:59):
- Readings and influence. - And then there's also just how I set up a classroom.
So I think there's just so many parts to that. In terms of setting up a classroom,
I think in most classes, I take the time in the first week of classes to actually co-create with the students, guidelines for classroom engagement.
- Okay, great. - And I mean, that came from a place of, you know, a class not going as well as I had hoped it to.
(18:25):
- As it often does.- As it often does, right, that learning. And so learning in week 5 or 6 okay,
we need to stop what we're doing and create these guidelines together.
And now I just do it proactively.
So I learned. It was a number of years ago. I really do, I mean I come at it with certain things that if students don't say them,
that I do add to the guidelines for engagement because things that are like
(18:46):
non-negotiables for me as an educator. In terms of my expectations of students,
but also my role as a leader in the classroom,
and that students know that they can trust me to do my best to create an inclusive and safe enough space,
and where my lines are in terms of what I will and won't tolerate in a classroom.
But a lot of it is just about mutual respect and setting up a space where I often talk about with students,
(19:12):
how, you know, we're going to believe that people are doing their best until we learn otherwise.
That most people, even if their language comes out clumsy or they're not sure about something,
that's because they're maybe in a different place in their learning, maybe have different experiences.
And also, it's okay if people have different viewpoints on various topics.
(19:32):
Like a lot of what we talk about in the therapy classroom is very nuanced in terms of human experiences.
So extending that respect to one another, even during hard conversations, because we have to have hard conversations.
- Linking back to what I said before, because we're going out and serving the public.- Absolutely. I was just going to say the,
(19:53):
you know, the viewpoints in practice are not going to be uni-dimensional they're going to be all over the map?
- All of us are different. - [Debora] How do you deal with that? - [Elizabeth] How do you deal with it?
And how do you sit with discomfort and know yourself well enough to notice when something is uncomfortable for you,
but to be able to sit in that, and still hear somebody else out?
(20:15):
- And also of course, always.... - Have a constructive discussion.
And also there always has to be a line at which point something is no longer safe or okay.
So, but how do we navigate that right and still sit with discomfort.
So we talk about that a lot early on.
And for me that's been really, really helpful in setting up classroom spaces that I hope are as safe as possible.
(20:38):
I can't guarantee safety, but sets up, you know, how I'm going to, what I'm going to hold myself accountable for,
and then also, just how all of us are, bringing ourselves into the space.
- So that's a big one for me. - I think this is one of the biggest issues that we face at the university, is creating braver spaces.
- Absolutely.- I would say for conversations that are difficult.
(21:01):
And I think students, given everything that's happening around us in society and in politics,
they just don't want to have those conversations and shy away from them. But, we have to be able to talk about things.
- I think so too. And it's really hard and...- But if I can't do it here, where are they going to be able to do it?
(21:21):
Exactly. I think it's okay that learning is uncomfortable.
- Yeah. That's how you learn.- It is. It is.
And again, I'm not at all saying anything goes. That's not my belief.
I think there are lines in terms of a classroom.
But we do have to increasingly, I think, be able to sit in discomfort to be able to hear other people out, also.
I like that. Sit in discomfort. Find your way through it.
(21:44):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because therapy is going to be uncomfortable lots of the time.
So that's like a really that's like a proactive thing.
And then I would say I do a lot of just challenging of the status quo in my classroom.
So I try to model for my students what it is to bring a critical lens to literature, to scholarship, whether that's music scholarship,
(22:07):
therapy scholarship, psychology scholarship. Because music therapy, of course, straddles some different disciplines.
We learn a lot about psychology practices and psychotherapy.
And also then we draw upon music as well.
And that ability to actually look at the literature and say, okay, yeah, whose voice is being heard here, whose voice isn't here. As an example.
(22:29):
you know, every single culture, I believe this is true globally, has musical practices, every single culture.
And it goes back at least 40,000 years. We know that human beings have been making music for at least 40,000 years, probably more.
- No wonder it makes us feel better.- Right? And that goes for everyone.
(22:49):
And we also know that human societies have always been making music associated with communal practice, social interaction, healing.
This is so embedded in our in our lives as human beings and in our cultures.
And yet, you know, music therapy emerges on the scene in the United States in about the 1940s.
(23:13):
And it's a profession that is very white and very based in the Western European canon.
And I'm so indebted to those amazing practitioners and scholars that did that work of professionalizing the field.
- Like that's really important. But we can't lose sight of the fact that this is.- The practice is a lot bigger than that.
The practice is so much bigger than just this small profession of music therapy that has been around less than 100 years.
(23:39):
And so we really need to, when we're just looking at the scholarship from Music Therapy historically,
we need to challenge why is Western European music given so much dominance?
Even though every culture in the world has always made music for healing purposes.
- So asking those types of questions.- [Debora] Bringing in different voices. - [Elizabeth] Bringing that into the classroom, those questions and to model that I'm asking those questions too.
(24:05):
And here's the literature I'm going to and the voices that we need to make space for.
And they're not always the biggest voices in music Therapy scholarship, but they 're the voices that have been pushed to the side.
So bringing those types, that type of more critical inquiry to the field, is another.
Another way to, I think, hopefully enhance inclusivity in the classroom because I'm demonstrating my,
(24:29):
utmost respect for students that are coming in regardless of their musical background,
saying, if your musical background isn't represented in the Music Therapy literature, like that's not your fault.
That's the leaders in the field that we need to have more research and more
scholarship and more leadership from people with really diverse practices in music.
(24:49):
And you've worked really hard to bring Indigenous voices, too, into your classroom and your curriculum?
Certainly. From a Canadian perspective, an Indigenous Music Therapist in Canada is someone I'm thinking of right now who said,
music therapy is Indigenous knowledge because of what I said before, right?
- In terms of on these lands, it's Indigenous people that have been using music for all of this time and healing capacity.- For all of these purposes.
(25:16):
And then, it's a major issue in the field that we have very few Indigenous Music Therapists.
And yet music therapy is arguably first and foremost Indigenous knowledge.
And so, making space for the voices of Indigenous musicians and scholars in my classroom is paramount.
And it's still something I'm learning. I've completed Laurier's Decolonizing Education Certificate, and I'm, again,
(25:42):
certainly not getting it perfect, but really authentically trying to learn and,
embed that knowledge not just in one course, in a compartmentalized way,
- But try to embed it throughout the program. - [Debora] Through the program, yes. - [Elizabeth] So at any, whatever we're talking about, whether it's the week
we're literally talking about Indigenous perspectives or the week we're talking about songwriting or assessment practices or goal writing.
(26:07):
It doesn't matter that that perspective is actually, like embedded throughout the curriculum.
We're getting there, and I've worked really hard at that, and it's still something we need to get better at.
But I'm sure it's so impactful for the students. And you're sending these people out there in the community.
And let's talk about that a little bit,
because one of your most wonderful contributions has been the partnerships that you've created in the community, one of which is Homewood Health Care.
(26:33):
So I wonder if you talk a little bit about that. And that's including Laurier students in the work that Homewood is doing.
So part of that long trajectory with Laurier I talked about at the beginning.
So in 2017, I was hired to be Laurier's Music Therapist in Residence,
which was a brand new position funded by amazing donors Bryce and Nancy Walker, who are longstanding supporters of Laurier and music at Laurier.
(27:00):
And they funded this position,
- this three year position for a music therapist in residence that would be in partnership with Laurier and Homewood Health Care.- That's wonderful.
So really innovative. And honestly, it just felt like a dream job for me because of that melding of theory and teaching with with direct practice.
(27:20):
So I was hired in 2017, and Homewood Health Center is a large 300-bed adult, inpatient facility in Guelph,
for mental health and addictions treatment. And they had never hired a music therapist before.
And so I was hired to build the program at Homewood and,
(27:42):
- you can't possibly as one person, serve 300 people.- [Debora] I was just going to say, build the program. - [Elizabeth] No matter how big your ambition is or your heart is or whatever.
So building is in terms of how what does it look like? Who are you serving?
Who are you not serving initially.
And, you know, so doing a lot of collaborating with the teams there in order to figure out how to best be of service and to use my time.
(28:03):
- Yeah, what are the gaps? How can I fill them? - Which units are the most in need?
And really exciting with that. So I started that job in February of 2017.
And in May of 2017, I took my first two interns from Laurier.
And so it was still really new for me, but it meant, for them in particular, but also for the interns that followed,
they also really got to be a part of that program development.
(28:26):
- So were they third or fourth year students? - These were graduate students, actually.
One was just finishing their first year of the Masters here and one second year of the Masters.
Gradually evolved over the three years I was there.
And I supervised 15 Laurier interns during those three years, some of them were doing full-time, 1000-hour internships.
(28:50):
- Some of them were just there, like one day a week for a semester. So it was a mix.- Amazing.
So those interns got to observe my work, collaborate with me.
We ran a lot of groups together where I would co-lead a music therapy group with the students.
Right.And they got to also lead their own sessions as well.
And be a part of the interdisciplinary team there.
So not only do the music therapy work, but actually sit around the table with doctors, nurses, social work,
(29:14):
occupational therapy and contribute to the client discussion around client needs and goals.
Contribute by sharing what had gone on in music therapy that week.
So, it was a really exciting partnership.
And I'll just say that though my position there ended when I came here, to be a full-time faculty member here in 2020,
(29:36):
- Homewood did hire actually one of those first interns, so a grad from our program.- Oh, wonderful.
- So that that program is still going?- That program is thriving.
Laurier students are still there. The program is actually growing.
And, they now have, they still have a full-time therapist there, but also an additional part-time as well.
So it's growing and thriving there. And Laurier students are still getting that internship opportunity there.
(29:59):
Amazing. That's amazing. You've also been really instrumental in shaping the Bachelor of Music Therapy.
Uou came in at the grad level, but now you're shaping the undergrad level, right?
So I took over as coordinator of the Bachelor of Music Therapy program in July 2020, the midst of COVID. Everyone's favourite time to start a new job.
(30:24):
Oh my goodness. So you were 2017 to 2020.
You were with Homewood as the music therapist in residence, and then boom,
faculty appointment and you are undergrad program officer in the pandemic.
And I was less familiar with the bachelor program, actually, because I did do the master's program here as a student.
(30:44):
I didn't do my bachelor's here. So I've been in that role as program coordinator of the bachelor since 2020.
And inherited such an incredible program that has been here since 1986.
So the second music therapy program in Canada, I believe, is the Bachelor Music Therapy program here at Laurier.
- And so certainly...- I didn't know that.
(31:05):
- That's great. - Yeah, I feel like, I mean in many ways standing on the shoulders of giants because just amazing,
amazing predecessors who also led this this program. For me,
a big part of those changes that have come in response to society in response to students needs have been around inclusion and diversity.
Yeah.
And so I think, I mean, I already spoke to that in a lot of ways, but trying to, I mean, I developed a course called music, Culture and Community,
(31:31):
which is where we really dig into the series around racism and sexism and ableism in health care and,
look at power and how it functions and the therapeutic relationship, and look at more anti oppressive models of doing therapy.
So that of course, I've taught eight times now because I was really a part of developing that.
(31:54):
And so that's really where we dig into that. But as I mentioned before, also when I took over program leadership,
it was about how do we embed this actually throughout the program because I want to model that this isn't just like a box that I'm ticking off,
like, oh, our students are getting this content, but actually, right from their first year in the Intro to Music Therapy course that I teach,
how are we embedding this content and how am I just modeling this content?
(32:17):
What readings are being assigned? How how is assessment being done?
So some of those questions. A big one for me as an example,
has been changing up how we talk about goal writing for our clients in Music Therapy, I think.
And that's another, we talked about that, yet,
but it's another area where I think therapists need to listen to the disability community better than we ever have done before,
(32:41):
like we need to do that. And we need to as, when we are able bodied people who are therapists,
we need to not make assumptions about what disability, what people with disabilities want for their own lives.
And so really changing up how we do goal writing with students and so that it's much
more collaborative rather than making assumptions based on someone's medical diagnosis,
(33:04):
which may or may not be what they want to focus on in their Music Therapy session.
- They may not even see that that thing that the medical community has labeled as a problem, that person may not see as a problem.- May not see it as a disability.
It's really problematic, those assumptions.
And so I've done a lot of work to change up how we're talking about assessment and goal writing.
(33:24):
And that's, that's actually a, that's a behemoth in terms of how we do therapy.
But I'm trying to, I'm just really trying to challenge some of those assumptions, again,
challenging the status quo and hopefully not being prescriptive about it, but, kind of modeling to the students like what questions to ask.
- So this is, are these larger debates going on in the Music Therapy community? - mhmm [nods] - So you're having them here.
(33:47):
We're all grappling with this as therapists right now.
So this is the first step of therapy is the student would,
student practitioner would sit down with the client and talk about, so what is it that you want to achieve through therapy?
And I would think that would take a lot of confidence for somebody to do that.
(34:10):
- You'd have to build confidence in the student?- Totally.
- Yeah. So I have two thoughts. One is yes, that is.- That's a big conversation.
It takes confidence and that ability, in a way it's a lot easier to just, you know, off by yourself, do your assessment of your client.
- Make those notes, decide what you're going to do in therapy and just.- Do it.
(34:30):
Be the expert. And do the therapy. And I think that's a really problematic way of doing therapy.
I don't want my therapist to make assumptions about what I want for my own life.
I don't think any of us want that. So yes, being able to have those conversations and actually being open to what the answer
is and the other piece of it and something that music therapists do really well,
(34:52):
that's that talk therapists can't do, usually is work with clients who don't use words.
Right. Like we're often at the bedside of people who are in hospitals, who've had a brain injury,
who are at end of life, or working with a child with developmental disabilities.
And so the not making assumptions things in a way is even harder when it's harder to check-in with that person in that moment.
(35:17):
So that's about having conversations with a caregiver, getting to know from,
from the other loved ones in that person's life. Their best guess at what this person would have wanted.
It might be about picking up on body language cues for lack of being able to use words.
So it is about the conversation,
(35:38):
but it's also about being really open when our clients can't use words because that's something that music therapy does best, in my opinion.
I'm just thinking much more discussion about, you know, what qualities are you looking for in Music Therapy students?
- This is you know, this is a big one. - Yeah, yeah.
Being able to communicate in different ways to have those
initial conversations and if you can't have them then to be able to intuit, you know, in different ways.
(36:05):
Absolutely intuit and listen and kind of just sit with the unknown when you don't know,
rather than just barreling ahead with a plan.
This is what I think.
Yeah. Ideally, yeah.
And again, I think going back to those skills, it's, it is that combination because it's of interpersonal with musical, because that,
intuition or just really attentive listening and sitting with somebody else.
(36:28):
And that's the interpersonal piece.
But then also the versatility musically, if that client wants to go somewhere different with the music, you need to be ready to go there with them.
And so our students really need those those excellent musical skills as well.
This is probably a good time to ask you then sort of what advice would you give to aspiring Music Therapists?
Right. You in, you know, 2001?
(36:52):
I think it is those two things. It's I mean, that's a really simple way of looking at it,
but it's the musical skills and the people skills or the interpersonal skills and intra as well.
- In terms of knowledge of self, I would say.- That reflexive piece.
Yeah. So to keep working on your music. I think people that don't much about MusicThereapy might make an assumption that,
like music therapy is the thing you do if you're not good enough to be a performer.
(37:15):
And I would really challenge that assumption. If you're going to place for somebody who's in hospital or at the end of their life,
I would hope that your music sounds beautiful and that you're versatile and able to meet their needs,
which is about far more than just learning to play the notes on the page.
I would encourage, you know, students to explore creativity, to try out improvising,
(37:38):
to try writing their own songs so that they're able to explore that with clients.
That's something that I came out later. Like, I was definitely a very perfection oriented classical pianist growing up,
and I had to unlearn a lot of that in order to be freed up, to just improvise with people.
- So I would encourage aspiring Music Therapists to do that creative stuff on their own.- Earlier rather than later.
(38:00):
Yeah, just to get used to messing around, while they're also developing their skills.
And then certainly to get that interpersonal experience,
whether that's through volunteer work at a hospital or long term care facility or in a school like anywhere that a music therapist would work.
- Those communication skills.- Yeah, exactly.
Just what is it like to walk into one of these places and build a relationship with someone whose life has been different than your own,
(38:22):
and maybe is vulnerable in some way, or marginalized in some way.
So learning how to build those relationships with people and to feel comfortable.
And then also, yeah, the self-reflection is a big one. So that we need to we need to know ourselves.
And so to be able to comfortably identify like these are the things I know I need to work on.
- And, that's really important. So what's next for you?
(38:45):
Speaking of self-reflection, in terms of your teaching practice. But also in terms of thinking about the Bachelor of Music Therapy program.
Right? So you've done lots of work on it, and, you're looking in the future and you're looking at your students. What do you see?
Bringing Indigenous voices or making space for Indigenous voices in the classroom,
(39:07):
and just greater work around equity,
diversity and inclusion that our students are really feeling a sense of belonging in Music Therapy and in the Faculty of Music.
I feel as though we've made great strides, whether that's, and I'm just not talking just about the Music Therapy program.
I sit with my colleagues in Music, and I know there have been,
(39:28):
really intentional changes made to the music curriculum in order to really celebrate
- people, no matter what their musical backgrounds are, and to more than celebrate, to respect.- And bring more traditions into
Yeah. Like there's no hierarchy. Like everyone's music is valid.
I still have a lot more work to do there. The program still has a lot more work to do there.
(39:49):
In terms of how we're teaching those musical skills, the theories we're drawing on. There is still is more space like,
So I think that journey is is continuing.
And I'm still learning and still learning my own, you know, the things that I don't know that I don't know.
Like we're all I think the longer we exist, we learn
we have more to learn. So I'm just still reading and talking to people and trying to build relationships.
(40:14):
And yeah, I believe that the program is a more welcoming space for more diverse people, and I believe we still have work to do.
So I'm still totally invested in that work,
and I'm excited about curriculum changes that are coming in the Faculty of Music starting next fall that are public.
So I'm not being secretive about those, But there will be one Bachelor of Music starting in September 2025,
(40:38):
as opposed to two different streams that students audition into.
And that is a very clear demonstration by Laurier's Faculty of Music that that all musics matter.
So I'm really excited about that because then that impacts who comes into our Bachelor of Music Therapy program as well.
So that's really exciting.
And on a smaller note, I am excited to teach the first years in January. I get to teach the Intro to Music Therapy class.
(41:03):
- I love first year students.- It's a class of 90, and its a blast.
It is. They bring so much to the classroom and that large group dynamic, there's just there's nothing like it.
There's nothing like it. And so much of what I do is like sitting in a circle with a small group of students.
So I love then getting up in front of the 90 of them.
And folks that are already know they want to be music therapists and folks that are taking it as elective,
(41:27):
I have no idea what it is and just think it sounds like an easy course.
And I'm just, I'm here for it all. So I'm excited for that course in January as well.
Well, thank you so much for joining me here today, Elizabeth.
It's been a real pleasure getting insight into the breadth of what Music Therapy is and what your teaching practices engage in. Thank you.
(41:50):
Thanks, Debora. It's really good to be here.
My thanks to Elizabeth Mitchell for joining me today, and I hope you will join me.
and I hope you will join me for more conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
Welcome to Laurier's Teaching Excellence Conversation series.
I'm Deborah VanNijnatten, academic director of teaching excellence and innovation at Wilfrid Laurier University.
And today I'm with Elizabeth Mitchell from the Faculty of Music, who received the 2024 Hoffmann-Little Award for faculty,
which recognizes excellence in teaching, research, and community engagement.
(00:23):
All things that certainly describe Elizabeth. As the Bachelor of Music Therapy Coordinator.
Elizabeth has been instrumental in developing Laurier's Music Therapy program to forge deep connections with community health
care organizations that create learning opportunities for students and enrich the lives of members of our community.
(00:45):
Through her scholarly work, she continues to contribute to the understanding and application of music therapy in diverse settings.
She prepares students for clinical settings with compassion, mentorship, support, and a dedication to diversity.
And I'm excited to talk with her today.
[uplifting music plays]
(01:24):
Well, Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining me here today.
And I want to start by noting that in your dossier,
it's clear that you always wanted to pursue a career in music, but you also always wanted to teach.
But how did you get to music therapy? So indeed, I did always want to do music.
(01:44):
And in fact, even predating the interest in a career in music was certainly a career in teaching.
- That is like my earliest memories. I think it was first, and then music a little bit later.- So teaching was first, and then music.
- but still both in childhood, like pre-high school.- [Debora] I was going to say, you did music all the way though. - [Elizabeth] Yeah, those were decisions I made
and so music teaching was an obvious combination of those two things.
(02:06):
And I had also considered going the performance route, although I think teaching always won out.
But in my undergrad, I decided to do an undergrad in music rather than going straight into music therapy, for example,
because I wanted to have that time to hone my musical skills specifically and kind of to keep my options open.
(02:27):
I knew about music therapy, but also was really interested in going to do a Bachelor of Education afterwards.
And I would say, part of it was,
as a pianist in my undergrad, spending 2 to 3 hours a day in the practice room by myself during that time and through high school, too.
But then in my undergrad. And realizing that it was just really important to me that my musical
(02:52):
career involved more interaction with people, quite honestly, and certainly artists are of service to society in a profound way.
And so what I'm about to say isn't saying that, performing artists aren't being of service, but for me,
having a really tangible interaction with people on a daily basis was really important to me.
(03:13):
And of being service to communities in some way that felt very tangible.
- Doing music with other people.- So to me that was. Doing music with other people, rather than spending quite as much time on my own,
honing my craft, which is still an important part of being a music therapist.
But yeah, I wanted that application, I guess, of the craft.
So then it was like, okay, teaching or therapy and the two experiences I often will tell students or others when they ask me this question.
(03:38):
One was, I think I had an appreciation of music's therapeutic potential from a young age,
having gone through some hard stuff in my teenage years and really learning as a pianist in particular, I also think through singing,
just the ways that I could channel really difficult emotions through music and the way that music could, like,
hold that for me, even if I felt like I wasn't in a place to be able to maybe share what was going on with many people.
(04:04):
So I had that relationship to music where I felt like music was like caring for me, from a young age.
And then the other piece of that was, my grandmother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's when I was in high school.
- [Debora] Right. - And I would visit her. She was always so proud of me as a musician.
And, would come to piano recitals and band concerts and stuff like that.
(04:29):
And when she lost her capacity to speak,
when I was in my late teenage years. I would go and play music for her at the facility where she was living,
and she could still sing, even though she could no longer speak.
So music could still, like she could still use music to communicate. To communicate with others.
Correct. And not only her, but I was, you know, I was 16, 17 years old and I would go and play music at this facility.
(04:53):
And, I mean, not everyone. Music isn't like a magical cure for people.
I'm not trying to say that, but it wasn't just my grandma. It was many other folks at that facility that I was watching.
I was like, oh, a minute ago you were just really, really tired and not engaging with others.
And now I'm sitting at the piano playing and you're paying attention and communicative and often singing and even singing words.
(05:18):
And my little teenage brain was just like, I need to learn more about about this.
So that experience was very impactful and I think was one of the,
one of the things that really led me to, to pursue music therapy as well.
Was there music therapy course in your your undergrad because you did a Bachelor of Music, right?
- No, there was no course. So I knew almost nothing about it.- Ok, I'm so interested with how people get pulled in.
(05:41):
I knew almost nothing about it.
I had looked through, I think, some course calendars, you know, when I was a high school student looking at, you know, university options.
And so I knew music therapy was a degree option here at Laurier at the time, but I seriously knew almost nothing about it.
I think that high school students now, a lot of them do know more about it.
Music therapy is still small and still growing, but is certainly more well known than, I finished high school in 2001.
(06:06):
So, more well known than it was in 2001.
But, yes, I think still I knew almost nothing.
But I did know that there was this field that would tap into music's therapeutic potential to work towards various goals with people,
and that was what I saw going on with my grandma.
And I think that's what I saw or felt in myself when I was playing the piano and playing at a high level, musically, but it kind of wasn't about that.
(06:31):
It was more about the emotive content and the way that I could relate to the music.
And so I just felt like, I want to learn more about this.
And also, again, going back to that idea of being service to others in some way,
that maybe this is something that I can introduce in someone else's life that can be helpful for them too.
- So then graduate work.- So then I came to Laurier.
(06:53):
- So I came to Laurier in 2005 to start my Masters of Music Therapy.- It's almost, next year, it'll be 20 years.
- And in terms of my journey at Laurier, I have been here since 2005.- That's amazing!
So I did two years as a student and I'm really, really grateful.
(07:16):
My research supervisor, Dr. Colin Andrew Lee, encouraged me to apply as a clinical supervisor and as a course instructor,
and it had never occurred to me that a) to do a PhD or b) to be a university instructor. Like that was never a career goal.
And it honestly would have never occurred to me even to look at job postings at a university.
(07:36):
- So you were, because you thought you'd be working in the community? - Yeah, totally.
And I did end up doing that for a time. But Dr. Lee invited me to apply for a posting.
I was successful, and so in tandem to starting my first music therapy job,
which was at a local mental health facility, I also was teaching a course here in the fall of 2007, and I loved it.
(08:00):
- That started my time as a contract teaching faculty member- I feel like saying the rest is history.
- But no, we have some more to talk about.- Yeah, so I have been,
even though I've only been in this current role since 2020, I have been continuously employed by Laurier since fall of 2007.
- So I've been around a while.- So in terms of thinking about your classroom then, so that's your first experience teaching.
(08:22):
You have since taught across the full range of undergrad, plus graduate, plus,
you know, clinical supervision, helping students as they go out into the community.
What does your classroom look like? Because in your dossier, you note, there's always music, but sometimes there's hands on music,
(08:42):
and sometimes there's more reflective activities or different kinds of theoretical exercises.
Right? Or, you know, sort of talk to us a little bit about your classroom and how students navigate that.
Yeah. So I would say it's both and hopefully we're, I mean,
we're doing our best in the program to link the the practice with the theory. Primarily today
(09:03):
I'll be talking about the bachelor's program because that is the program I coordinate.
Although I do teach, as you alluded to, I do teach graduate students as well in our Master of Music therapy program.
But I'll probably focus more on the bachelor program.
And in both programs, there are courses that are meant to be very practically focused and courses that are meant to be theoretically focused.
(09:24):
So I think a student would know showing up to a course,
whether or not it's the focus is going to be on the practice or the focus is going to be on the theory.
Although I would say in an ideal setting, we're doing both all the time.
It's clear from your dossier that you are trying to trying to do all the time.
Certainly.
So in the bachelor's program, we have two in third and fourth year, two courses that are called clinical musicianship courses.
(09:50):
So the idea or, that students are, I mean, they're certainly developing their musical skills further, but even more importantly,
they're learning how to specifically hone and tailor and adapt those musical skills to those those clinical or health care or therapy situations.
So, how do I, you know, leave space in my music for somebody who needs a little bit more, more time to respond?
(10:16):
Or how do I create a sense of safety and a music making experience for somebody who's feeling extraordinarily anxious?
There's so many different examples of that, but really focusing on how we can use our music creatively,
expressively, and with as much versatility as possible, because we're going to be working with a very wide range of humans out in the world.
(10:37):
So how can I make music in a way that is going to hopefully, you know,
be able to meet and match people where they are and with whatever they need.
- So that's what those practical courses are for. - So our students, they're playing instruments.
- They're singing? All of the above. - All of the above. Yeah.
- And how many students in the class? I'm trying to get a sense in my mind, for those third year classes.- Usually a maximum of 20.
(11:00):
More like 15 in recent years, but between 15 to 20 students so that we can really dig in to like role playing those scenarios.
- So we're improvising together. Using familiar music, playing music, playing instruments, singing, songwriting.- Wonderful.
So doing those really practical things that music therapists would do with a client,
(11:21):
our students are hopefully getting all of those practical skills in the classroom, first and foremost.
And to go back to your question. I'm always striving to also help students to be able to identify what theory is underlying.
So if I make this decision in an improvization or in a songwriting activity, well, why am I doing it?
(11:42):
What's my underlying theory or philosophy? What's the goal I'm working towards?
- So very reflexive.- So I'm not just very I'm not just making music because it sounds good,
even though it might sound good and that's great, but like, what are we doing in this therapy session and why?
So that's the connection from the practice to the theory and vice versa.
There's those courses that are more theoretically focused, but ideally also always encouraging the students to make the connection.
(12:06):
So if we're talking about, you know, theories from psychology, humanistic theory versus psychodynamic theory as examples, well,
then what does that look like in in music in terms of your decision making as a therapist in a session and reflexivity, totally.
So that students are increasingly able to articulate what their own philosophy of practice is and make those connect those dots for themselves.
(12:30):
So if I identify with these theories, then how do my actions line up with with that theory?
Yeah. And how do I reflect? So I know when it's going well and what I need to keep working.
And we all need to do that as therapists, myself included.
You know, no matter how experienced you are,
any good therapist is always reflecting and hopefully getting better at their craft and able to identify when something didn't go as planned.
(12:53):
Yeah, so let me let me pick up on that. Because then what are the key qualities of a music therapist?
And how are you, obviously you're doing this role playing in your,
you know, writing music or making music and thinking about, you know, what do I do in this scenario?
But how are you leading them toward or what goal are you leading toward at the end of those, especially the musicianship classes?
(13:18):
It's an interesting mix in terms of those ideal qualities.
I would say it's the musical skills and then also the therapeutic or the interpersonal skills.
Do you go into the classroom, you're like, okay, that person's got it in spades.
- Right? And that person we've gotta, you know.- Not sure if I should answer that question on the video [laughs].
- I mean, I audition all the students who come into the music therapy program and I.- Oh, so they do auditions?
(13:44):
Oh, yes. And the second year to become a music therapy student,
they do an additional audition and interview.
So I know when they come in and what their strengths are and what those areas are that they're going to need to still work on.
- Can I ask how many students audition? - It varies year to year,
- I'm just thinking, you're knowing these students as they're coming in.
(14:08):
- How many students is that? - Well, because it's at the end of second year.
At that time, the students know whether or not they want to go into therapy, direction or education or performance or history.
It depends on the year but 25, 25-ish.
So, it's not a super competitive audition.
I wouldn't say at the end of second year, because I always tell students I'm working with in terms of a recruitment setting,
(14:34):
get yourself into our Bachelor of Music. Like, that's the biggest hoop to jump through.
And then assuming you're doing well in your classes and your musicianship skills are continuing to grow in those first and second years,
you're probably going to be okay at at that audition at the end of second year.
But, and then we're taking between 15 to 20 students a year.
(14:55):
But it depends on the numbers. And so that's after second year.
And then they're coming into third year doing those core courses.
- Yeah. Exactly. - And there's clinical practice as well. Or is that fourth year?
Both. They start right away. Sometimes a student maybe auditions at the end of second year.
And I say here's all the potential you have. And also because those placements start in September of third year
(15:18):
- I need you to take an extra year.- Oh you want them ready, ya.
To really hone your skills because you need to be ready in third year,
of course, to be still mentored and to grow,
you don't have to be perfect, but to be comfortable enough to go out into a community setting and start leading sessions with supervision,
but to start leading sessions right away.
So that must be a real focus of your classroom practices,
(15:40):
is getting people comfortable, making themselves vulnerable, working through difficult dynamics.
- Yeah, definitely. - Therapy obviously addresses some very challenging issues.
Absolutely. Yeah, that's really important. And important that students who want to be therapists are,
in a place where they're okay talking about talking about hard things.
(16:03):
Okay relating to people who maybe have different experiences or different perspectives on things than than they do.
Because our clients are going to come from all walks of life.
So, yeah, being prepared to have hard conversations.
And also as a music therapist, sometimes you are making music and not talking.
So it's not that you're going to be having a heavy conversation with everybody.All the time.
(16:23):
Not at all. But things might get heavy and you certainly need to be prepared for that.
- That's really different than just being a musician, right? - [Elizabeth] It's really different. - [Debora] Your an undergrad in music,
And then, that's a different thing to be focusing on in your classroom.
Yeah, I remember, I mean, I remember thinking as a Master of Music Therapy student here,
just that change in focus and in the academic setting having to bring,
(16:48):
perhaps just a more whole version of myself, even into the classroom, because we were constantly, its that self-reflection, self-reflection,
and a lot of emotional content, a lot of really heavy content coming up in class, which is certainly different than a Bachelor of Music.
For sure. So, our students need to be ready for that.
And if we tiptoe around it in the classroom, it's going to like slam them when they get out into a workplace.
(17:14):
So it's really important that we prepare students with those skills and, ready them for the hard parts of the job.
Your dossier really emphasizes the importance of inclusivity, right? In your teaching practice and in your classroom.
So what does that look like in your classroom? How do you ensure that, you create an inclusive environment for your students?
(17:35):
Yeah, I mean, it's such a big one for sure. And,
partially, it's around really tangible things in terms of strategies or, you know, modes of assessment, for example.
Some of it's about my intentionality around language and, what what we're talking about, whose voices were making space for each room.
(17:59):
- Readings and influence. - And then there's also just how I set up a classroom.
So I think there's just so many parts to that. In terms of setting up a classroom,
I think in most classes, I take the time in the first week of classes to actually co-create with the students, guidelines for classroom engagement.
- Okay, great. - And I mean, that came from a place of, you know, a class not going as well as I had hoped it to.
(18:25):
- As it often does.- As it often does, right, that learning. And so learning in week 5 or 6 okay,
we need to stop what we're doing and create these guidelines together.
And now I just do it proactively.
So I learned. It was a number of years ago. I really do, I mean I come at it with certain things that if students don't say them,
that I do add to the guidelines for engagement because things that are like
(18:46):
non-negotiables for me as an educator. In terms of my expectations of students,
but also my role as a leader in the classroom,
and that students know that they can trust me to do my best to create an inclusive and safe enough space,
and where my lines are in terms of what I will and won't tolerate in a classroom.
But a lot of it is just about mutual respect and setting up a space where I often talk about with students,
(19:12):
how, you know, we're going to believe that people are doing their best until we learn otherwise.
That most people, even if their language comes out clumsy or they're not sure about something,
that's because they're maybe in a different place in their learning, maybe have different experiences.
And also, it's okay if people have different viewpoints on various topics.
(19:32):
Like a lot of what we talk about in the therapy classroom is very nuanced in terms of human experiences.
So extending that respect to one another, even during hard conversations, because we have to have hard conversations.
- Linking back to what I said before, because we're going out and serving the public.- Absolutely. I was just going to say the,
(19:53):
you know, the viewpoints in practice are not going to be uni-dimensional they're going to be all over the map?
- All of us are different. - [Debora] How do you deal with that? - [Elizabeth] How do you deal with it?
And how do you sit with discomfort and know yourself well enough to notice when something is uncomfortable for you,
but to be able to sit in that, and still hear somebody else out?
(20:15):
- And also of course, always.... - Have a constructive discussion.
And also there always has to be a line at which point something is no longer safe or okay.
So, but how do we navigate that right and still sit with discomfort.
So we talk about that a lot early on.
And for me that's been really, really helpful in setting up classroom spaces that I hope are as safe as possible.
(20:38):
I can't guarantee safety, but sets up, you know, how I'm going to, what I'm going to hold myself accountable for,
and then also, just how all of us are, bringing ourselves into the space.
- So that's a big one for me. - I think this is one of the biggest issues that we face at the university, is creating braver spaces.
- Absolutely.- I would say for conversations that are difficult.
(21:01):
And I think students, given everything that's happening around us in society and in politics,
they just don't want to have those conversations and shy away from them. But, we have to be able to talk about things.
- I think so too. And it's really hard and...- But if I can't do it here, where are they going to be able to do it?
(21:21):
Exactly. I think it's okay that learning is uncomfortable.
- Yeah. That's how you learn.- It is. It is.
And again, I'm not at all saying anything goes. That's not my belief.
I think there are lines in terms of a classroom.
But we do have to increasingly, I think, be able to sit in discomfort to be able to hear other people out, also.
I like that. Sit in discomfort. Find your way through it.
(21:44):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because therapy is going to be uncomfortable lots of the time.
So that's like a really that's like a proactive thing.
And then I would say I do a lot of just challenging of the status quo in my classroom.
So I try to model for my students what it is to bring a critical lens to literature, to scholarship, whether that's music scholarship,
(22:07):
therapy scholarship, psychology scholarship. Because music therapy, of course, straddles some different disciplines.
We learn a lot about psychology practices and psychotherapy.
And also then we draw upon music as well.
And that ability to actually look at the literature and say, okay, yeah, whose voice is being heard here, whose voice isn't here. As an example.
(22:29):
you know, every single culture, I believe this is true globally, has musical practices, every single culture.
And it goes back at least 40,000 years. We know that human beings have been making music for at least 40,000 years, probably more.
- No wonder it makes us feel better.- Right? And that goes for everyone.
(22:49):
And we also know that human societies have always been making music associated with communal practice, social interaction, healing.
This is so embedded in our in our lives as human beings and in our cultures.
And yet, you know, music therapy emerges on the scene in the United States in about the 1940s.
(23:13):
And it's a profession that is very white and very based in the Western European canon.
And I'm so indebted to those amazing practitioners and scholars that did that work of professionalizing the field.
- Like that's really important. But we can't lose sight of the fact that this is.- The practice is a lot bigger than that.
The practice is so much bigger than just this small profession of music therapy that has been around less than 100 years.
(23:39):
And so we really need to, when we're just looking at the scholarship from Music Therapy historically,
we need to challenge why is Western European music given so much dominance?
Even though every culture in the world has always made music for healing purposes.
- So asking those types of questions.- [Debora] Bringing in different voices. - [Elizabeth] Bringing that into the classroom, those questions and to model that I'm asking those questions too.
(24:05):
And here's the literature I'm going to and the voices that we need to make space for.
And they're not always the biggest voices in music Therapy scholarship, but they 're the voices that have been pushed to the side.
So bringing those types, that type of more critical inquiry to the field, is another.
Another way to, I think, hopefully enhance inclusivity in the classroom because I'm demonstrating my,
(24:29):
utmost respect for students that are coming in regardless of their musical background,
saying, if your musical background isn't represented in the Music Therapy literature, like that's not your fault.
That's the leaders in the field that we need to have more research and more
scholarship and more leadership from people with really diverse practices in music.
(24:49):
And you've worked really hard to bring Indigenous voices, too, into your classroom and your curriculum?
Certainly. From a Canadian perspective, an Indigenous Music Therapist in Canada is someone I'm thinking of right now who said,
music therapy is Indigenous knowledge because of what I said before, right?
- In terms of on these lands, it's Indigenous people that have been using music for all of this time and healing capacity.- For all of these purposes.
(25:16):
And then, it's a major issue in the field that we have very few Indigenous Music Therapists.
And yet music therapy is arguably first and foremost Indigenous knowledge.
And so, making space for the voices of Indigenous musicians and scholars in my classroom is paramount.
And it's still something I'm learning. I've completed Laurier's Decolonizing Education Certificate, and I'm, again,
(25:42):
certainly not getting it perfect, but really authentically trying to learn and,
embed that knowledge not just in one course, in a compartmentalized way,
- But try to embed it throughout the program. - [Debora] Through the program, yes. - [Elizabeth] So at any, whatever we're talking about, whether it's the week
we're literally talking about Indigenous perspectives or the week we're talking about songwriting or assessment practices or goal writing.
(26:07):
It doesn't matter that that perspective is actually, like embedded throughout the curriculum.
We're getting there, and I've worked really hard at that, and it's still something we need to get better at.
But I'm sure it's so impactful for the students. And you're sending these people out there in the community.
And let's talk about that a little bit,
because one of your most wonderful contributions has been the partnerships that you've created in the community, one of which is Homewood Health Care.
(26:33):
So I wonder if you talk a little bit about that. And that's including Laurier students in the work that Homewood is doing.
So part of that long trajectory with Laurier I talked about at the beginning.
So in 2017, I was hired to be Laurier's Music Therapist in Residence,
which was a brand new position funded by amazing donors Bryce and Nancy Walker, who are longstanding supporters of Laurier and music at Laurier.
(27:00):
And they funded this position,
- this three year position for a music therapist in residence that would be in partnership with Laurier and Homewood Health Care.- That's wonderful.
So really innovative. And honestly, it just felt like a dream job for me because of that melding of theory and teaching with with direct practice.
(27:20):
So I was hired in 2017, and Homewood Health Center is a large 300-bed adult, inpatient facility in Guelph,
for mental health and addictions treatment. And they had never hired a music therapist before.
And so I was hired to build the program at Homewood and,
(27:42):
- you can't possibly as one person, serve 300 people.- [Debora] I was just going to say, build the program. - [Elizabeth] No matter how big your ambition is or your heart is or whatever.
So building is in terms of how what does it look like? Who are you serving?
Who are you not serving initially.
And, you know, so doing a lot of collaborating with the teams there in order to figure out how to best be of service and to use my time.
(28:03):
- Yeah, what are the gaps? How can I fill them? - Which units are the most in need?
And really exciting with that. So I started that job in February of 2017.
And in May of 2017, I took my first two interns from Laurier.
And so it was still really new for me, but it meant, for them in particular, but also for the interns that followed,
they also really got to be a part of that program development.
(28:26):
- So were they third or fourth year students? - These were graduate students, actually.
One was just finishing their first year of the Masters here and one second year of the Masters.
Gradually evolved over the three years I was there.
And I supervised 15 Laurier interns during those three years, some of them were doing full-time, 1000-hour internships.
(28:50):
- Some of them were just there, like one day a week for a semester. So it was a mix.- Amazing.
So those interns got to observe my work, collaborate with me.
We ran a lot of groups together where I would co-lead a music therapy group with the students.
Right.And they got to also lead their own sessions as well.
And be a part of the interdisciplinary team there.
So not only do the music therapy work, but actually sit around the table with doctors, nurses, social work,
(29:14):
occupational therapy and contribute to the client discussion around client needs and goals.
Contribute by sharing what had gone on in music therapy that week.
So, it was a really exciting partnership.
And I'll just say that though my position there ended when I came here, to be a full-time faculty member here in 2020,
(29:36):
- Homewood did hire actually one of those first interns, so a grad from our program.- Oh, wonderful.
- So that that program is still going?- That program is thriving.
Laurier students are still there. The program is actually growing.
And, they now have, they still have a full-time therapist there, but also an additional part-time as well.
So it's growing and thriving there. And Laurier students are still getting that internship opportunity there.
(29:59):
Amazing. That's amazing. You've also been really instrumental in shaping the Bachelor of Music Therapy.
Uou came in at the grad level, but now you're shaping the undergrad level, right?
So I took over as coordinator of the Bachelor of Music Therapy program in July 2020, the midst of COVID. Everyone's favourite time to start a new job.
(30:24):
Oh my goodness. So you were 2017 to 2020.
You were with Homewood as the music therapist in residence, and then boom,
faculty appointment and you are undergrad program officer in the pandemic.
And I was less familiar with the bachelor program, actually, because I did do the master's program here as a student.
(30:44):
I didn't do my bachelor's here. So I've been in that role as program coordinator of the bachelor since 2020.
And inherited such an incredible program that has been here since 1986.
So the second music therapy program in Canada, I believe, is the Bachelor Music Therapy program here at Laurier.
- And so certainly...- I didn't know that.
(31:05):
- That's great. - Yeah, I feel like, I mean in many ways standing on the shoulders of giants because just amazing,
amazing predecessors who also led this this program. For me,
a big part of those changes that have come in response to society in response to students needs have been around inclusion and diversity.
Yeah.
And so I think, I mean, I already spoke to that in a lot of ways, but trying to, I mean, I developed a course called music, Culture and Community,
(31:31):
which is where we really dig into the series around racism and sexism and ableism in health care and,
look at power and how it functions and the therapeutic relationship, and look at more anti oppressive models of doing therapy.
So that of course, I've taught eight times now because I was really a part of developing that.
(31:54):
And so that's really where we dig into that. But as I mentioned before, also when I took over program leadership,
it was about how do we embed this actually throughout the program because I want to model that this isn't just like a box that I'm ticking off,
like, oh, our students are getting this content, but actually, right from their first year in the Intro to Music Therapy course that I teach,
how are we embedding this content and how am I just modeling this content?
(32:17):
What readings are being assigned? How how is assessment being done?
So some of those questions. A big one for me as an example,
has been changing up how we talk about goal writing for our clients in Music Therapy, I think.
And that's another, we talked about that, yet,
but it's another area where I think therapists need to listen to the disability community better than we ever have done before,
(32:41):
like we need to do that. And we need to as, when we are able bodied people who are therapists,
we need to not make assumptions about what disability, what people with disabilities want for their own lives.
And so really changing up how we do goal writing with students and so that it's much
more collaborative rather than making assumptions based on someone's medical diagnosis,
(33:04):
which may or may not be what they want to focus on in their Music Therapy session.
- They may not even see that that thing that the medical community has labeled as a problem, that person may not see as a problem.- May not see it as a disability.
It's really problematic, those assumptions.
And so I've done a lot of work to change up how we're talking about assessment and goal writing.
(33:24):
And that's, that's actually a, that's a behemoth in terms of how we do therapy.
But I'm trying to, I'm just really trying to challenge some of those assumptions, again,
challenging the status quo and hopefully not being prescriptive about it, but, kind of modeling to the students like what questions to ask.
- So this is, are these larger debates going on in the Music Therapy community? - mhmm [nods] - So you're having them here.
(33:47):
We're all grappling with this as therapists right now.
So this is the first step of therapy is the student would,
student practitioner would sit down with the client and talk about, so what is it that you want to achieve through therapy?
And I would think that would take a lot of confidence for somebody to do that.
(34:10):
- You'd have to build confidence in the student?- Totally.
- Yeah. So I have two thoughts. One is yes, that is.- That's a big conversation.
It takes confidence and that ability, in a way it's a lot easier to just, you know, off by yourself, do your assessment of your client.
- Make those notes, decide what you're going to do in therapy and just.- Do it.
(34:30):
Be the expert. And do the therapy. And I think that's a really problematic way of doing therapy.
I don't want my therapist to make assumptions about what I want for my own life.
I don't think any of us want that. So yes, being able to have those conversations and actually being open to what the answer
is and the other piece of it and something that music therapists do really well,
(34:52):
that's that talk therapists can't do, usually is work with clients who don't use words.
Right. Like we're often at the bedside of people who are in hospitals, who've had a brain injury,
who are at end of life, or working with a child with developmental disabilities.
And so the not making assumptions things in a way is even harder when it's harder to check-in with that person in that moment.
(35:17):
So that's about having conversations with a caregiver, getting to know from,
from the other loved ones in that person's life. Their best guess at what this person would have wanted.
It might be about picking up on body language cues for lack of being able to use words.
So it is about the conversation,
(35:38):
but it's also about being really open when our clients can't use words because that's something that music therapy does best, in my opinion.
I'm just thinking much more discussion about, you know, what qualities are you looking for in Music Therapy students?
- This is you know, this is a big one. - Yeah, yeah.
Being able to communicate in different ways to have those
initial conversations and if you can't have them then to be able to intuit, you know, in different ways.
(36:05):
Absolutely intuit and listen and kind of just sit with the unknown when you don't know,
rather than just barreling ahead with a plan.
This is what I think.
Yeah. Ideally, yeah.
And again, I think going back to those skills, it's, it is that combination because it's of interpersonal with musical, because that,
intuition or just really attentive listening and sitting with somebody else.
(36:28):
And that's the interpersonal piece.
But then also the versatility musically, if that client wants to go somewhere different with the music, you need to be ready to go there with them.
And so our students really need those those excellent musical skills as well.
This is probably a good time to ask you then sort of what advice would you give to aspiring Music Therapists?
Right. You in, you know, 2001?
(36:52):
I think it is those two things. It's I mean, that's a really simple way of looking at it,
but it's the musical skills and the people skills or the interpersonal skills and intra as well.
- In terms of knowledge of self, I would say.- That reflexive piece.
Yeah. So to keep working on your music. I think people that don't much about MusicThereapy might make an assumption that,
like music therapy is the thing you do if you're not good enough to be a performer.
(37:15):
And I would really challenge that assumption. If you're going to place for somebody who's in hospital or at the end of their life,
I would hope that your music sounds beautiful and that you're versatile and able to meet their needs,
which is about far more than just learning to play the notes on the page.
I would encourage, you know, students to explore creativity, to try out improvising,
(37:38):
to try writing their own songs so that they're able to explore that with clients.
That's something that I came out later. Like, I was definitely a very perfection oriented classical pianist growing up,
and I had to unlearn a lot of that in order to be freed up, to just improvise with people.
- So I would encourage aspiring Music Therapists to do that creative stuff on their own.- Earlier rather than later.
(38:00):
Yeah, just to get used to messing around, while they're also developing their skills.
And then certainly to get that interpersonal experience,
whether that's through volunteer work at a hospital or long term care facility or in a school like anywhere that a music therapist would work.
- Those communication skills.- Yeah, exactly.
Just what is it like to walk into one of these places and build a relationship with someone whose life has been different than your own,
(38:22):
and maybe is vulnerable in some way, or marginalized in some way.
So learning how to build those relationships with people and to feel comfortable.
And then also, yeah, the self-reflection is a big one. So that we need to we need to know ourselves.
And so to be able to comfortably identify like these are the things I know I need to work on.
- And, that's really important. So what's next for you?
(38:45):
Speaking of self-reflection, in terms of your teaching practice. But also in terms of thinking about the Bachelor of Music Therapy program.
Right? So you've done lots of work on it, and, you're looking in the future and you're looking at your students. What do you see?
Bringing Indigenous voices or making space for Indigenous voices in the classroom,
(39:07):
and just greater work around equity,
diversity and inclusion that our students are really feeling a sense of belonging in Music Therapy and in the Faculty of Music.
I feel as though we've made great strides, whether that's, and I'm just not talking just about the Music Therapy program.
I sit with my colleagues in Music, and I know there have been,
(39:28):
really intentional changes made to the music curriculum in order to really celebrate
- people, no matter what their musical backgrounds are, and to more than celebrate, to respect.- And bring more traditions into
Yeah. Like there's no hierarchy. Like everyone's music is valid.
I still have a lot more work to do there. The program still has a lot more work to do there.
(39:49):
In terms of how we're teaching those musical skills, the theories we're drawing on. There is still is more space like,
So I think that journey is is continuing.
And I'm still learning and still learning my own, you know, the things that I don't know that I don't know.
Like we're all I think the longer we exist, we learn
we have more to learn. So I'm just still reading and talking to people and trying to build relationships.
(40:14):
And yeah, I believe that the program is a more welcoming space for more diverse people, and I believe we still have work to do.
So I'm still totally invested in that work,
and I'm excited about curriculum changes that are coming in the Faculty of Music starting next fall that are public.
So I'm not being secretive about those, But there will be one Bachelor of Music starting in September 2025,
(40:38):
as opposed to two different streams that students audition into.
And that is a very clear demonstration by Laurier's Faculty of Music that that all musics matter.
So I'm really excited about that because then that impacts who comes into our Bachelor of Music Therapy program as well.
So that's really exciting.
And on a smaller note, I am excited to teach the first years in January. I get to teach the Intro to Music Therapy class.
(41:03):
- I love first year students.- It's a class of 90, and its a blast.
It is. They bring so much to the classroom and that large group dynamic, there's just there's nothing like it.
There's nothing like it. And so much of what I do is like sitting in a circle with a small group of students.
So I love then getting up in front of the 90 of them.
And folks that are already know they want to be music therapists and folks that are taking it as elective,
(41:27):
I have no idea what it is and just think it sounds like an easy course.
And I'm just, I'm here for it all. So I'm excited for that course in January as well.
Well, thank you so much for joining me here today, Elizabeth.
It's been a real pleasure getting insight into the breadth of what Music Therapy is and what your teaching practices engage in. Thank you.
(41:50):
Thanks, Debora. It's really good to be here.
My thanks to Elizabeth Mitchell for joining me today, and I hope you will join me.
and I hope you will join me for more conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
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