October 11, 2024 • 45 mins
Max Gwynn from Laurier’s Psychology Department and recipient of the 2024 Sustained Excellence in Teaching Award reflects on his mentors and the teachers who have shaped him as an educator, and discusses the importance of stories, humour, and personal anecdotes on engaging students. He shares how his focus on increasing students’ self-efficacy allows them to overcome their math anxieties and carry their newfound problem-solving abilities into their personal and professional lives. Max shares his strategies for keeping large classes engaged, including crafting lectures with narrative arcs and ensuring that students have opportunities to participate, and offers advice for colleagues on the importance of sharing their authentic selves with students.
Laurier’s Donald F. Morgenson Awards for Teaching Excellence honour those who, through their commitment to exemplary teaching, have made significant contributions to the educational experience of Laurier students. Learn more about award-winning teaching at Laurier: https://bit.ly/award-winning-faculty
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Laurier's Teaching Excellence Conversation series.
I'm Debora VanNijnatten, Academic Director of Teaching Excellence and Innovation at Wilfrid Laurier University.
Today, I'm with Max Gwynn from the Psychology Department, who received the 2024 Sustained Excellence in Teaching Award.
Known for his ability to demystify the complexities of statistics and mathematics,
(00:25):
Max Gwynn has been instrumental in helping students overcome their anxieties about these subjects,
empowering them to excel and embrace challenges with confidence and enthusiasm.
Since joining Laurier in 1993, Doctor Gwynn has brought with him a deep passion for psychology and a pedagogical
(00:46):
approach that has made learning a transformative experience for countless students.
Throughout his career, Max has excelled in large class teaching as well as individual guidance,
serving as undergraduate advisor for nearly half his career.
Max guides students through their academic and personal journeys with patience, wisdom, and an ever present sense of humor.
(01:11):
And I'm thrilled to be able to talk with him today. So Max, thank you so much for joining me here today.
(01:39):
And I know you've wrapped up teaching with your very last course, online course in statistics.
Yes. Before beginning a well-earned retirement.
And so I thought we might start today by talking about what are the most significant changes that you have observed in students over the years?
(01:59):
Right? So, you know, in terms of what they're able to take on and understand more easily, do they struggle with different kinds of things now?
What are the big changes that you've seen? Because that's a 30 year wonderful career.
30 years. It's a generation. It absolutely is.
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having me here, by the way, I appreciate that.
Yeah. Students have changed somewhat. I mean, you hear about these labels, millennials and boomers and X Gen and so on like that.
(02:27):
And there are among every cohort differences from the previous cohort.
In terms of students, I noticed that one thing is that students don't tend to go to class quite as often
as students did 20 or 30 years ago. We've all noticed that, haven't we?
And I'm not sure why that's the case.
(02:50):
One thing that may be is that students in this generation, last five, ten years, maybe come to the conclusion that everything that I need to know,
I can just look up, it'll be somewhere in the textbook, or it'll be online. Or online.
Yes. Or now through generative AI.
(03:10):
Yes. And so they think I don't have to be in class because I'll get that material somewhere else.
And that's a shame, because in every class, every instructor has information, knowledge to pass on to you.
And isn't going to be in the lecture notes and isn't in the textbook, or that they're not going to be able to find online.
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And so I stress to students, it's important to come to class, not just my class,
but all your classes in order to find that extra additional info, additional bonus knowledge you'll be getting from the instructor.
And so don't just think that if I missed a class, it's okay, I'll look it up online later on.
(03:54):
It's not going to work quite as well as hearing it in class and being able to ask questions about the material in class.
Yeah, it's funny that we are in the position, definitely, of having to demonstrate the value proposition for coming to class.
Right. And so I have been teaching almost the same amount of time.
(04:17):
And it is odd to be in that position where you actually have to, you know, it's worth your while,
please come and then it really does force some thinking on your part about,
so why is it worthwhile, right? How do you adapt your methods to this student cohort that is not sure it's worthwhile coming to class.
(04:39):
Well, I mean, letting them know in the first class, because most students do attend the first class
at least, letting them know that there is going to be a benefit to you to come to class to
hear what the instructor has to say that may not be on the slides, may not be in the textbook,
and that will be on the exam, because sometimes the bottom line for a student is this going to be on the exam.
(05:05):
Yes. And I'll let them know that I'll be saying things that aren't on the slides.
So don't just sit passively and listen to what I'm saying, but instead take notes, additional notes,
along with the PowerPoint printouts that you might have or adding on to your slides on your laptop.
(05:26):
Take additional notes because the information that isn't on the slides that is emphasized in class is important stuff,
and it is something that you will be expected to know on the exam.
And if you want to maximize your grade, if you want to do as well as you can in this course, coming to class is just one easy way of
(05:50):
adding that 5 or 10% that you may have missed by not being, not attending the lectures.
So one of my colleagues, actually in political science, did some
calculations to demonstrate that those who came to class did get, on average, a higher grade in the course.
(06:12):
Right? So showing that, it certainly helps to show them that.
Right. And, you know, we often also point out that correlation does not mean causation.
Yes, it is a statistics course after all. Yeah.
The people who are more motivated to do well attend class and study more to make sure they know the material well.
Those people that may be a little bit less motivated in a topic area, maybe
(06:36):
statistics, they may not be as motivated to come to class.
Yeah. And to spending the hours outside of class needed to master the material.
Well, I'm going to get back to what
must be a serious challenge in getting students to get excited about statistics, but I'll get back to that in a minute.
(06:57):
I wanted to, though,
take you back and then ask you whether there has been memorable moments in your career that have really molded the passionate teacher that you are,
and you're clearly a passionate teacher because the students that are writing for you in your dossier are just, you know, so,
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so very complimentary of your presence, your energy, your humor, your ability to clarify concepts that they may find challenging.
So those are the sorts of things that I'd like to bring to class.
I can't say that there is any sort of flashbulb moments where you're like, hey,
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that say oh this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my teaching career.
Rather, it's a series of small things. Yes. I'm hearing from students at the end course, that that wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be.
I was worried about statistics because I'm not good at math.
And getting them over that hump over what may be a hurdle for them,
(08:03):
holding them back from really thinking that they can do well in the course.
So I'm hearing from students that they were able to get through the stats course and it wasn't as bad as I thought.
And is there any higher praise for a statistics course?
No, it's not as bad as I thought.
Right. Yeah. That's high praise for stats. Yeah.
Realizing that students are aware of these things that they believe might hold them back from doing as well as they can,
(08:31):
but that there are ways of getting over that in the class.
So realizing that I can motivate them to do well
tell them not to worry about any shortness they may feel that they have in their math knowledge and
really getting them to think that, yeah, I can do this, you know,
(08:52):
trying to increase their self-efficacy with respect to their math ability.
So that's really become your focus over time. Right.
Right. And also early in my teaching career as a graduate student from university, I realized that it's okay to be kind of quirky,
(09:14):
to be a little bit weird in class, to tell a lot of a jokes, tell a lot of stories, because I noticed that this is what captured a lot of students attention.
And so instead of them just doodling or nodding off in class, if I can try to,
put kind of some fun into the course that will keep them engaged.
(09:39):
And so even though I started off being kind of quirky, I tried to keep that.
That's benefited you. Yeah, I've kept that throughout the 30 years of teaching.
Realizing that it can be something that can bring a little bit of fun, lightness to something that maybe otherwise kind of boring material,
working with numbers in statistics. You're apparently famous for your dad jokes in class.
(10:03):
Well, the dad jokes come up one because I'm a dad.
My kids will let you know that I, yeah,
You use a lot of dad jokes. Yeah. And they come up in class a lot and
again, I get a lot of groans, but at least the groans are telling you that people are listening and paying
attention to what you're saying and trying to throw them in with the material
(10:26):
to lighten it up a bit and keep them engaged.
So you mentioned the privilege of having been able to take courses with Doctor Brian Little at the undergraduate and graduate level at Carleton.
So what was it about his teaching that inspired you?
Well, he was a famous instructor at Carleton.
All the students loved him. And it was apparent that he had a real passion for teaching and for the subject matter that
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he was teaching, personality psychology, in terms of the courses that I took with him.
And so seeing his passion for the material really was inspiring to me to say it can be like this.
You don't have to be a dry university lecturer just putting information out there for students to absorb.
(11:15):
But the great thing about Doctor Little, who went on to win a 3M Teaching Fellowship in 1995,
I think, was that he would quite often with his Monty Python-esq humour
Oh, okay. Tell stories. Stories in the class.
Okay, so this was also a good model for you, for humour.
(11:36):
Yes, this storytelling is something that I, I try and keep in my courses where you want to talk about a topic and it would unfold like a story.
It would have a beginning, a middle and an end. Right.
And the end would quite often tie back to what was introduced right at the beginning.
And so when if you add something that kind of piques students interest at the beginning of your story,
(12:00):
of your lecture, and then throughout the lecture, they say, oh,
that's why this person was talking about that at the beginning, to go through a story with a story arc,
I think really helps students to see where you're going to go and how everything was tied together.
Students love stories. They do. They do love stories.
(12:22):
And so he was inspirational that way,
with his humour, his use of personal events,
telling us about his family and kids were playing soccer and somehow getting you interested in that.
But tying it back to the course material was something that he would have great segue between these personal stories and
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how it leads into or how it relates to the material that was going to be discussed tonight.
And that's when the light bulbs go off. Yes. That's right. Around the lecture hall.
Absolutely. That's great.
One of the things that I really enjoyed about your dossier is you were saying you didn't originally have a teaching philosophy per se.
No. It was something that just sort of evolved gradually and sort of realizing this is why I do the things that I do.
(13:13):
Right. Right. When people talk about in teaching dossiers or a teaching philosophy rather, I sometimes say, well
how do you come up with 1 or 2 lines that are our teaching philosophy. That sum up, you know, your entire approach to pedagogy?
There's no unifying theory in psychology.
(13:34):
There's no one big theory that explains everything.
Likewise, I can't really come up with a single philosophy about what I think is important in teaching.
Yeah. But there are so many sub-theories.
There is in the different discipline areas within psychology that I may have kind of my mini philosophy for each of those.
So when I'm teaching stats, I try to use humour, try to make the material engaging rather than just being a bunch of numbers.
(14:01):
Yes. When I'm teaching applied social psychology,
I try to show this is how we can use our theory in knowledge and research in psychology to improve people's lives,
to show how the theories in psychology can lead to, if not a better world,
that's a bit of a lofty goal, at least improving someone's life or trying to address a particular social problem we have.
(14:28):
So the philosophy, if I have any overarching philosophy, it's always teach from the viewpoint of being a student, trying to think about how,
not how to get the material out there, what facts you need to present, or rather, how as a student would I be receiving this information?
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How much? How much is too much? How much is too little?
What can I do to keep their interest enough that maybe if they missed something in class,
they'll actually be interested in looking it up on their own after. Teaching the student, not the content.
Right. And so I started teaching quite young as a grad student, and so I thought, hey, I'm a student too.
(15:10):
And I would tell students I'm a student as well. I had you know, 20, 30, 40 different instructors.
And keep in mind what sort of things each instructor did that worked for me and what things kind of just went over my head.
And I'm trying to pick the best parts of each instructor that I had previously.
(15:33):
So that I can relate to that. That worked for me.
And I tried to scatter that throughout the lectures that I'd present and, you know, over the subsequent 30 years teaching.
One of the things that I want to go back to that links to what you just said is that in your dossier
you note the importance of fostering and nurturing students self-efficacy.
(15:57):
So. Right. Yeah, but that's that's something that to me,
I think, in a stats class that's particularly challenging because they come in thinking they can't do it right.
And you have to turn that around to of course you can do it. Yeah.
I mean. So how do you do this? Stats is a different type of course
then let's say introductory psychology. Students come into introductory psychology saying I'm great with people I know I can read my friend,
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I know a lot about this stuff from my everyday life.
And so they think, hey, I can do this. I can learn about psychology.
But then they come into a stats course, and if I had a dollar for every time a student has come to me at the beginning of the first class and said,
I'm really worried about this point, I'm not good at math.
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You'd be a millionaire. Yeah I would have retired years and years ago if I had a
buck each time I heard that.
And so what I'm trying to let them know right from the start is that I know a lot of students go into psychology because they don't like numbers,
they don't like math. They want to stay away from the physical sciences, for instance.
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But you can do math. You can do stats. The things that you need to know
at the start of this stats course, how to add, subtract, multiply, divide square and square root,
and a little bit of algebra formulas. That sounds manageable.
If you know that, you've got all the basic tools that you need, all the math tools that you need, to be successful in a stats course,
(17:31):
We'll be introducing some new mathematical and statistical concepts as we go through the course,
but they will always build on simpler material that we've covered in previous classes.
So we'll go step by step from you know, x equals mx plus B all the way through to something like
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a huge formula that has 20 or 5 x's, and 9 y's and squares and square roots.
You'll be able to get through as long as you can do basic math, you'll do it.
And I've heard from students so many times at the end of
the course or even after convocation when I see them with their parents, I was so worried about the math in that course
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but, it wasn't bad. I got through and I actually enjoyed it.
So that's very gratifying to let them know that you can master math.
You can. And and if nothing else, if they don't remember the statistical formulas or how to do a t-test five years after they graduate,
(18:36):
I'm hoping that they keep in mind that they can competently and confidently work with math,
work with numbers, and I'd be grateful if they forget all the stats they know
but have that increased self-efficacy when it comes to working with numbers.
Yeah, I would say that you do, however, also provide them with lots of support on the basic math.
(19:02):
Like I notice that you've got, you know, if you want to review on this,
look at this and you've got some videos and you've got some resources and you'll have lots of. Have lots of practice problems.
Yeah. Point them out to videos on YouTube. Yeah. I tell them that we've got some fantastic TAs in the course who are graduate students
or themselves have taken an introductory stats course and then known and got through it
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and they got through it and excelled at it. So there are lots of support, lots of resources.
Come and ask me if you have questions about something and if I can't answer it, I'll look it up, I'll find something,
some material that will help you get over that hurdle and it will help me the next
time I teach the course to realize what sort of steps you were a little confused on.
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And we'll get through that. And I'll be mentioning that to subsequent classes.
How many students in the class again around? It ranges from 150 to 250 students in class.
A lot of students in these stats courses. Yeah, it's a lot. And so I can't learn all of their names.
But I do hope to talk to some of them before or after class or during office hours
(20:14):
or in the last few years over zoom turn office hours or some other time.
Yeah, so big classes. And I try to keep as personable as I can.
One of the things that I noticed also in the dossier is, you know, so the department was hoping to move statistics online into an online format.
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Yes. And initially you were reluctant and thinking how is this going to go putting statistics online?
Because I would expect that moving a statistics course,
one that has many supportive exercises and resources for the students that you have created I would think that'd be very challenging.
(20:57):
So just your thoughts on moving a course like this online and keeping it fresh and real.
And you know, I'm thinking about your dad jokes. Do they translate into an online format.
Like how do you do it. Yeah. No, dad jokes not as much because they're more off the cuff.
Yes. But for years and years I was reluctant, although we were moving some courses online in psychology.
(21:22):
Right. I was reluctant to do a stats course because I thought this is material that it's really important to have interactions going on.
Yeah. To have someone there to help them over the problems that they may have or to get lots of practice because we do a lot practice in class,
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going, learning how to use this formula to arrive at an answer.
And so I was reluctant to suggest that we make the stats course an online course.
But then two things changed my mind about that. One was the Psych Department said we need to have this course online.
There's no choice. We're going to do it so that students can do their entire psych degree online.
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So that kind of got me over the first hurdle.
The second was the advances that have been made?
Yes. In technology? Yes. And the way that online courses are delivered over the last ten, even five years,
going from sending out videotapes of a lecture, of a live lecture, for instance, that's how we used to do distance education.
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Now it's done online. And there are ways to incorporate print technology using interactive quizzes, using apps and hyperlinks
Absolutely. Absolutely. Using all of this wonderful wizardry that the tech team here at Laurier,
(22:50):
through teaching and learning, they know this stuff so well.
And then we get good training. We get really good training.
Yeah. And so they were really able to create a lot of interactive things that would keep people engaged,
rather than just reading through stuff and working through their problems. Doing assignments.
Yeah. They every, you know, 30, 15, 20 minutes, they have something they have to do on their own to work their problem or to think about,
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how this relates to something you've done and write down or do multiple choice type questions.
It's really amazing how the technology can be used to keep them engaged.
Not maybe to the same extent that they would in the classroom, but there are students who are,
you know, highly motivated to to work on their own, to work independently.
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And we try to give them all the tools to succeed in order to be able to do that.
And so there's a little less off the cuff stuff that I would bring up in class.
But there is more structure to it. And you know, I'm trying to improve that online course term by term as well.
And with the help of the tech team and all the resources available
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Lots of practice problems. But I think students are doing pretty well at learning the material.
And you think that you're able to maintain that student centered approach that you, you know, you're clearly known for in your in-person class.
I tried to, there's a lot of quirkiness there, I mention a lot about zombies in class. Zombies and statistics, I love it.
(24:26):
But, yes, and other things about again to,
Doctor Little kind of demonstrated trying to write stories into the online lessons so that they would be able to
to see where we're going and how we get there.
And are you going to continue to teach online? I may, haven't committed to anything yet. Just thinking about
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how you'll want to use your time.
In thinking about your in-person class, the students coming into lecture, and, you know,
you've said a number of times now that you're very busy in class, you're constantly practicing, you're doing things, you're applying things.
How do you do that in a large lecture?
(25:13):
The reason I ask is because this is one of the most significant challenges
I would say for faculty at Laurier and elsewhere is how to engage your students in large lectures.
How do you keep them active and engaged?
Especially, you know, I was reading a statistic the other day that the average focus time for a post-secondary student is eight minutes now.
(25:39):
Oh, this is after cell phones and social media, you know, apps and all of these, in eight minutes.
So how do you keep them engaged? You know, especially with the material, like what are you doing with them in class?
Well, in the beginning, way back in that previous millennium, when I was first teaching, the classes were smaller.
Yes. And so, yeah, you could keep their attention, keep their focus pretty well if there are 30 or 35 students in the class.
(26:04):
But now that there are over 100 or 200, it is a little more difficult.
And students do have I find less of an attention span
these days. Yes. Yeah. The evidence supports that.They may be easily distracted
way back in the 90s. And when they were
they might doodle or they might write out a shopping list or count the number of dots on the ceiling or something like that.
(26:31):
Now they're distracted in different ways. They have their phones.
Yeah. They have their laptop or tablet in front of them.
And so it's very easy for them to take their attention away from the material that's been presented.
And so by throwing things in there that maybe they're not expecting by using maybe an off color joke or story that way.
(26:57):
You do this a few times early in the course, and you're hoping that students will say, hey, what's he going to do this time?
What's he going to be saying that is really quirky
or weird that I can talk about later on.
And so. Letting them know that the something may come up that is going to be of interest to you
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even if you're not interested in stats, can help to hold their attention.
And as well being kind of low key.
I use a lot of self-deprecating humour.
A lot of I sometimes I will intentionally make a mistake when I'm doing an equation on the board and I say, is that right?
Can anyone tell me if I've made a mistake here? And do you find that they're like, what's this?
(27:42):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they do say, yeah, you've used the wrong number there or you haven't square rooted down there.
And then I'm hoping that in subsequent classes, students will be keen to try and be the one that's to notice, not error.
Yeah. And so they're saying yeah okay, that's what X is and that's what Y is.
(28:04):
And it looks like everything's okay. So trying to have them see
maybe they can see where I've tripped up and to realize that it's okay to make mistakes.
As long as you double-check your work or you have someone else checking your work, a lot of eyes on your work that's going to work.
And are they doing actual problems in class, or is that mainly for lab?
(28:28):
Because I know you do labs as well. In the labs we use statistical software.
Yes. But in class we tend to do hand calculations. Great. And some other profs who teach stats say hand calculations?
Nobody does hand calculations anymore. We have SPSS to do that for us.
But right since day one I've been getting them to do hand calculations to see how they get
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a numerator for a formula and a denominator and what goes into the top of the fraction,
the bottom of the fraction, what it all means. I think you don't get that when you're doing an SPSS analysis.
You just get a number in.
And so to see where the numbers are coming from, I think it's important for them to realize what goes into the formulas and to work through the,
(29:15):
the formulas and equations right from step one down to the final answer.
It's funny that you say that because you're actually the cutting edge, because the, you know,
what education researchers are saying now in order to address the problems with generative AI and
what's happening with academic integrity and disengagement and digital distractions in the classroom,
(29:40):
and trying to keep students focused and engaged, get them to handwrite notes in class, to do exercises in the class.
So you're actually you're cutting edge. In the early days. Old school is cutting edge now for Max.
Back when we would use overheads.
Meaning you know when you wrote on plastic and projected up. Yes I remember. I used to use overheads. In the early days
(30:03):
You're dating both of us right now.
In the early days, I would, instead of producing pre-made overheads, that I would then flip up and write everything down
I moved to just writing everything on the board or everything on the overhead itself, so that students would be able to keep up with the material.
Right? And they would work along with me to write things down as I wrote. As you're writing.
(30:27):
Yes. And I knew that I was going at the right pace, so I wasn't going faster than they would be able to attend to to encode as well.
And remember later on. And then after a few years I got to know what pace I could go at.
Yes. Where I can go quicker and where I can go slower. So I was in the Goldilocks zone in terms of write speed and material presentation.
(30:51):
Not too fast, not too slow. And so I would create handouts or in the later years, create PowerPoint slides.
That has a lot of the information so they don't have to write it down.
But I tell them there are blanks. There are spaces on the slides or on the handouts and you fill them in.
(31:12):
Right. Cause the research tells us that when students write something down
by hand I have better retention, better retention, better encoding, better ability to recall it later on.
Yeah. So I say don't just sit there. Don't just tape record, audio record the lesson.
Instead write it down by hand and it'll pay off in the long run.
(31:34):
Yeah. For sure.
So when you alongside all of your teaching you have also been undergraduate advisor in the department for 14 years or something like that.
About half the time I've been here, I've been undergrad advisor as well.
And that's, it's a very complimentary. It's a lot of work
(31:54):
first of all. Especially in a large, complex multi-pronged program like psychology.
But it also is helpful in terms of giving you a different perspective on the students.
Because you actually see some of their struggles.
Right. Exactly. That you may not be aware of
(32:17):
as the professor at the front of the classroom or during office hours.
That's right. So just your thoughts on you know what I mean? It's exactly that.
As an advisor, you get the opportunity to ask students about their experience,
you know, over the last week what's gone right for you, what's gone wrong?
(32:37):
What are you finding and what are you struggling with?
Yeah. In your program or as a university student?
What are you really proud of that you've done in a course so far.
And you get that more one on one completely away from course material.
But how they're faring as a student, how they're striving as a student.
(33:00):
Yeah. And so that can help to address our teaching as well.
Absolutely. Because you're thinking, oh, I could be doing X, Y, or Z in order to support students in these different ways, right?
Yes. As an instructor, when we're preparing a course or preparing a particular lecture,
we tend to treat it as if it's the only thing that the student is going to hear, not me or this term, whereas they're doing 4 or 5 other courses.
(33:26):
And so as an instructor, when as we kind of be aware that we've got to keep our course load manageable our material
manageable, not to have too many quizzes,
not to have exams the same weeks that they have exams and all the other courses because you hear from students during academic advising
(33:48):
I had four midterms in two days, and it was just impossible for me to concentrate on any of them or to partition my time that way.
So I'm learning what students are liking, disliking within that program and within the classroom
Really helps as an instructor, but as an academic divisor
(34:09):
it's really helpful. And it's so rewarding as well.
Yeah. Because when you have a large class, you think that you're helping, you know, 200 students at a time learning course material.
And you see at the end how well they do on an exam. And if they do well,
you're kind of pleased that you were able to do that. As an advisor students may come to you with sometimes small questions.
(34:33):
How do I add a minor to my program? Yeah. Or big questions.
What can I do with my degree in psychology. And if you can give them some solutions, some answers, suggestions for that
it really is rewarding because in the course of a day you may have solved 12 students problems and that's 12 humps 12 hurdles
(34:58):
that you've had those students get over and,
it's nice to think that you're really helping them on an individual basis and not just helping them in classes of 250 at a time.
You know, I was going to ask you, what do you think your greatest achievement in your teaching career is.
But I think I need to ask you, what do you consider your greatest achievements in your teaching career?
(35:22):
You just were talking about one of your achievements is supporting students in their undergraduate pathway.
But, you know, if you think back, what what are your greatest achievements?
When I go to convocation and I try to go to as many convocations as I can, and speak to students afterwards,
it's gratifying to hear students say,
(35:43):
you really helped me through a time when I was thinking about giving up on university or changing my major to something else,
because of this one course, this one instructor, and it's I find it's an achievement
each time that I hear that from a student.
And so a lot of these little achievements, helping them out, hearing that a course wasn't as bad as I thought it was and things like that,
(36:08):
I find are those mini achievements that help to keep you going from year to year.
Plus, plus.
One of the ways in which I think you've also been really influential is you have that thesis course for fourth year students.
But you you help them participate in the thesis conference.
Can you talk just a little bit about that thesis conference?
(36:30):
Is that something that's disciplinary or? Within the psychology department, students who are doing a thesis
will at the end of the year, second to last week of the winter term, present their research findings in a poster conference.
Wonderful. This is amazing. And you organize this? Well, some years I would.
(36:50):
Other years I teach the fall term of the course, and someone else does the winter term in which they organize the project.
But over my years, I've organized a lot of these.
And it's great that students are able to present their work, present their "babies" that they've been working on for the last year,
(37:12):
eight months or a whole year, and present it to other students, some of whom they know nothing in the area and be able to take
one small research question and show how they use methodology in statistics and research designed to answer that question
to come to a conclusion and to chip off a little bit of what's not known about psychology in general.
(37:39):
And so it's very gratifying for students at the end to go through that
and once that conference is over to see them all be like, oh, it's done,
it was fun, I really enjoyed that. That's really gratifying as well.
We've had a couple of Ontario undergraduate thesis conferences where thesis students in
(38:00):
psychology from all universities in Ontario would come to Laurier and do the same sort of thing.
That's wonderful. And so I've organized a couple of those conferences and it's terrific.
It's a non-judgmental way for students to be able to present their research.
But, you know, this must be for some of those students,
first of all, the first time that they formulate a research question as well as develop the research design,
(38:29):
choose a methodology, do some empirical work, write up your findings down to doing the graphics on the poster.
All of those things, that's a wonderful culmination of the undergraduate experience.
It is, and it sets them up for a career. For grad school. So you must hear from them. Yes.
I've had many of my undergrad thesis students go on to grad school in psychology or medical school or teachers college or law school.
(38:57):
And the information that they gain from doing a thesis really helps them realize how they
have to work through a project right from the beginning question until the end result and
conclusion. And I have to mention among my achievements, if there's one achievement that I'll probably remember for a long time,
it's being nominated by my colleagues in the psych department for the Donald F. Morgenson Award.
(39:24):
And it was a team nomination. It was wonderful. It was humbling and very gratifying.
I really appreciated that. So let me pick up on that and ask you is there any advice you could give to somebody,
a new faculty member, in psychology who's starting on their teaching career,
(39:45):
what would you say to them? Well, if I were to go back in time and speak to
me in 1993, I'd say, again, you can do this.
It's maybe difficult, there's a lot of material but
you'll get through it in the first year. There are lots of resources to use.
(40:08):
You should be speaking to your colleagues in the department about teaching the course.
Go to the experts, read as much as you can
from learned teachers, read books from experienced instructors to find out some
techniques and tactics that you can use in your own course to help students learn.
(40:32):
Come and engage with us at Teaching Excellence and Innovation
That's right. The university has workshops,
they have experts you can consult with
and it's not something that you have to get 100% right the first time.
Over the years, each time you teach a course, you'll know what works and what doesn't work.
(40:53):
And you'll be able to add to it. And also, you know, be yourself.
Don't force yourself into a role. I love that.
Don't try to be someone who gets up there and gives fact after fact
After fact. When I think of my own undergrad and grad
courses that I took. My two instructors that stand out,
(41:16):
most were Dr. Little who we've spoken about, and another instructor who was kind of just the facts and he would be as dry as a desert
but he would present the information, and he did it in a way that worked. His style wasn't, you know, wasn't Hollywood or anything like that.
(41:40):
It wasn't totally engaging. But he made sure to present the information in a way that we could understand.
And he would present it and at the end of the class, at the end of the term, we would've learn the material.
So you don't have to be a doctor X, who is very dry,
just presenting the facts. You don't have to be a doctor Y who is really showy and engaging and is fun to work with, fun in class.
(42:08):
You don't have to be one or the other. Do whatever works for you.
Embrace your quirkiness. Exactly. Students will know if they're putting on a false front.
And so although you can
take on a role that may not be your your role outside of class,
that's fine. Dr. Little showed me that you can be an introvert
(42:31):
In a lot of social situations, such as he said he was
and that's why I am as well quite introverted.
But in the classroom, you can take on a persona
sometimes that may not be you initially, but you can develop and that you can use to help to engage students.
(42:52):
And you'll see what works and what you feel comfortable with and, you know, learn from each time you teach a class,
you get better and better at your role as instructor and find out what does work and what doesn't work for you and for the students.
So can I ask you what you're most looking forward to in retirement then?
Because here you are waxing poetic about your teaching.
(43:15):
Well I'm looking at the day that I'll be retiring.
I'm not necessarily counting down the days, but
it's going to be bittersweet because I'm really going to miss interacting with my colleagues and teaching classes, being in the classroom is special.
And they'll all miss you. Clearly. Some more than others [laughs].
I haven't made any big plans for retirement other than doing those household things that I've been putting off the last five years,
(43:45):
saying I don't have to paint that door now. I can do it once I retire.
So there are those chores. Except now there's a list. Yeah, and it's going to take me quite a while to cross things off that to do list.
I'm also looking forward to spending more time with my family. So I'll have the opportunity to be able to do that.
(44:05):
Looking forward to sleeping in a little bit more, staying up late,
reading some good books that don't have to do with statistics or psychology, some trashy novels.
Yeah, true crime, etc. That's awesome. So looking forward to it.
But also, I'll be missing the whole classroom experience.
(44:26):
Well, as I said, I'm sure Laurier will be missing you.
Thank you, Max, so much for joining me here today. I've really enjoyed our discussion.
It's been a joy as well. Thanks, Max. Thank you. My thanks to Max Gwynn for joining me here today.
And I hope you will join me for more conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
(44:47):
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
Welcome to Laurier's Teaching Excellence Conversation series.
I'm Debora VanNijnatten, Academic Director of Teaching Excellence and Innovation at Wilfrid Laurier University.
Today, I'm with Max Gwynn from the Psychology Department, who received the 2024 Sustained Excellence in Teaching Award.
Known for his ability to demystify the complexities of statistics and mathematics,
(00:25):
Max Gwynn has been instrumental in helping students overcome their anxieties about these subjects,
empowering them to excel and embrace challenges with confidence and enthusiasm.
Since joining Laurier in 1993, Doctor Gwynn has brought with him a deep passion for psychology and a pedagogical
(00:46):
approach that has made learning a transformative experience for countless students.
Throughout his career, Max has excelled in large class teaching as well as individual guidance,
serving as undergraduate advisor for nearly half his career.
Max guides students through their academic and personal journeys with patience, wisdom, and an ever present sense of humor.
(01:11):
And I'm thrilled to be able to talk with him today. So Max, thank you so much for joining me here today.
(01:39):
And I know you've wrapped up teaching with your very last course, online course in statistics.
Yes. Before beginning a well-earned retirement.
And so I thought we might start today by talking about what are the most significant changes that you have observed in students over the years?
(01:59):
Right? So, you know, in terms of what they're able to take on and understand more easily, do they struggle with different kinds of things now?
What are the big changes that you've seen? Because that's a 30 year wonderful career.
30 years. It's a generation. It absolutely is.
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having me here, by the way, I appreciate that.
Yeah. Students have changed somewhat. I mean, you hear about these labels, millennials and boomers and X Gen and so on like that.
(02:27):
And there are among every cohort differences from the previous cohort.
In terms of students, I noticed that one thing is that students don't tend to go to class quite as often
as students did 20 or 30 years ago. We've all noticed that, haven't we?
And I'm not sure why that's the case.
(02:50):
One thing that may be is that students in this generation, last five, ten years, maybe come to the conclusion that everything that I need to know,
I can just look up, it'll be somewhere in the textbook, or it'll be online. Or online.
Yes. Or now through generative AI.
(03:10):
Yes. And so they think I don't have to be in class because I'll get that material somewhere else.
And that's a shame, because in every class, every instructor has information, knowledge to pass on to you.
And isn't going to be in the lecture notes and isn't in the textbook, or that they're not going to be able to find online.
(03:31):
And so I stress to students, it's important to come to class, not just my class,
but all your classes in order to find that extra additional info, additional bonus knowledge you'll be getting from the instructor.
And so don't just think that if I missed a class, it's okay, I'll look it up online later on.
(03:54):
It's not going to work quite as well as hearing it in class and being able to ask questions about the material in class.
Yeah, it's funny that we are in the position, definitely, of having to demonstrate the value proposition for coming to class.
Right. And so I have been teaching almost the same amount of time.
(04:17):
And it is odd to be in that position where you actually have to, you know, it's worth your while,
please come and then it really does force some thinking on your part about,
so why is it worthwhile, right? How do you adapt your methods to this student cohort that is not sure it's worthwhile coming to class.
(04:39):
Well, I mean, letting them know in the first class, because most students do attend the first class
at least, letting them know that there is going to be a benefit to you to come to class to
hear what the instructor has to say that may not be on the slides, may not be in the textbook,
and that will be on the exam, because sometimes the bottom line for a student is this going to be on the exam.
(05:05):
Yes. And I'll let them know that I'll be saying things that aren't on the slides.
So don't just sit passively and listen to what I'm saying, but instead take notes, additional notes,
along with the PowerPoint printouts that you might have or adding on to your slides on your laptop.
(05:26):
Take additional notes because the information that isn't on the slides that is emphasized in class is important stuff,
and it is something that you will be expected to know on the exam.
And if you want to maximize your grade, if you want to do as well as you can in this course, coming to class is just one easy way of
(05:50):
adding that 5 or 10% that you may have missed by not being, not attending the lectures.
So one of my colleagues, actually in political science, did some
calculations to demonstrate that those who came to class did get, on average, a higher grade in the course.
(06:12):
Right? So showing that, it certainly helps to show them that.
Right. And, you know, we often also point out that correlation does not mean causation.
Yes, it is a statistics course after all. Yeah.
The people who are more motivated to do well attend class and study more to make sure they know the material well.
Those people that may be a little bit less motivated in a topic area, maybe
(06:36):
statistics, they may not be as motivated to come to class.
Yeah. And to spending the hours outside of class needed to master the material.
Well, I'm going to get back to what
must be a serious challenge in getting students to get excited about statistics, but I'll get back to that in a minute.
(06:57):
I wanted to, though,
take you back and then ask you whether there has been memorable moments in your career that have really molded the passionate teacher that you are,
and you're clearly a passionate teacher because the students that are writing for you in your dossier are just, you know, so,
(07:18):
so very complimentary of your presence, your energy, your humor, your ability to clarify concepts that they may find challenging.
So those are the sorts of things that I'd like to bring to class.
I can't say that there is any sort of flashbulb moments where you're like, hey,
(07:39):
that say oh this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my teaching career.
Rather, it's a series of small things. Yes. I'm hearing from students at the end course, that that wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be.
I was worried about statistics because I'm not good at math.
And getting them over that hump over what may be a hurdle for them,
(08:03):
holding them back from really thinking that they can do well in the course.
So I'm hearing from students that they were able to get through the stats course and it wasn't as bad as I thought.
And is there any higher praise for a statistics course?
No, it's not as bad as I thought.
Right. Yeah. That's high praise for stats. Yeah.
Realizing that students are aware of these things that they believe might hold them back from doing as well as they can,
(08:31):
but that there are ways of getting over that in the class.
So realizing that I can motivate them to do well
tell them not to worry about any shortness they may feel that they have in their math knowledge and
really getting them to think that, yeah, I can do this, you know,
(08:52):
trying to increase their self-efficacy with respect to their math ability.
So that's really become your focus over time. Right.
Right. And also early in my teaching career as a graduate student from university, I realized that it's okay to be kind of quirky,
(09:14):
to be a little bit weird in class, to tell a lot of a jokes, tell a lot of stories, because I noticed that this is what captured a lot of students attention.
And so instead of them just doodling or nodding off in class, if I can try to,
put kind of some fun into the course that will keep them engaged.
(09:39):
And so even though I started off being kind of quirky, I tried to keep that.
That's benefited you. Yeah, I've kept that throughout the 30 years of teaching.
Realizing that it can be something that can bring a little bit of fun, lightness to something that maybe otherwise kind of boring material,
working with numbers in statistics. You're apparently famous for your dad jokes in class.
(10:03):
Well, the dad jokes come up one because I'm a dad.
My kids will let you know that I, yeah,
You use a lot of dad jokes. Yeah. And they come up in class a lot and
again, I get a lot of groans, but at least the groans are telling you that people are listening and paying
attention to what you're saying and trying to throw them in with the material
(10:26):
to lighten it up a bit and keep them engaged.
So you mentioned the privilege of having been able to take courses with Doctor Brian Little at the undergraduate and graduate level at Carleton.
So what was it about his teaching that inspired you?
Well, he was a famous instructor at Carleton.
All the students loved him. And it was apparent that he had a real passion for teaching and for the subject matter that
(10:53):
he was teaching, personality psychology, in terms of the courses that I took with him.
And so seeing his passion for the material really was inspiring to me to say it can be like this.
You don't have to be a dry university lecturer just putting information out there for students to absorb.
(11:15):
But the great thing about Doctor Little, who went on to win a 3M Teaching Fellowship in 1995,
I think, was that he would quite often with his Monty Python-esq humour
Oh, okay. Tell stories. Stories in the class.
Okay, so this was also a good model for you, for humour.
(11:36):
Yes, this storytelling is something that I, I try and keep in my courses where you want to talk about a topic and it would unfold like a story.
It would have a beginning, a middle and an end. Right.
And the end would quite often tie back to what was introduced right at the beginning.
And so when if you add something that kind of piques students interest at the beginning of your story,
(12:00):
of your lecture, and then throughout the lecture, they say, oh,
that's why this person was talking about that at the beginning, to go through a story with a story arc,
I think really helps students to see where you're going to go and how everything was tied together.
Students love stories. They do. They do love stories.
(12:22):
And so he was inspirational that way,
with his humour, his use of personal events,
telling us about his family and kids were playing soccer and somehow getting you interested in that.
But tying it back to the course material was something that he would have great segue between these personal stories and
(12:46):
how it leads into or how it relates to the material that was going to be discussed tonight.
And that's when the light bulbs go off. Yes. That's right. Around the lecture hall.
Absolutely. That's great.
One of the things that I really enjoyed about your dossier is you were saying you didn't originally have a teaching philosophy per se.
No. It was something that just sort of evolved gradually and sort of realizing this is why I do the things that I do.
(13:13):
Right. Right. When people talk about in teaching dossiers or a teaching philosophy rather, I sometimes say, well
how do you come up with 1 or 2 lines that are our teaching philosophy. That sum up, you know, your entire approach to pedagogy?
There's no unifying theory in psychology.
(13:34):
There's no one big theory that explains everything.
Likewise, I can't really come up with a single philosophy about what I think is important in teaching.
Yeah. But there are so many sub-theories.
There is in the different discipline areas within psychology that I may have kind of my mini philosophy for each of those.
So when I'm teaching stats, I try to use humour, try to make the material engaging rather than just being a bunch of numbers.
(14:01):
Yes. When I'm teaching applied social psychology,
I try to show this is how we can use our theory in knowledge and research in psychology to improve people's lives,
to show how the theories in psychology can lead to, if not a better world,
that's a bit of a lofty goal, at least improving someone's life or trying to address a particular social problem we have.
(14:28):
So the philosophy, if I have any overarching philosophy, it's always teach from the viewpoint of being a student, trying to think about how,
not how to get the material out there, what facts you need to present, or rather, how as a student would I be receiving this information?
(14:50):
How much? How much is too much? How much is too little?
What can I do to keep their interest enough that maybe if they missed something in class,
they'll actually be interested in looking it up on their own after. Teaching the student, not the content.
Right. And so I started teaching quite young as a grad student, and so I thought, hey, I'm a student too.
(15:10):
And I would tell students I'm a student as well. I had you know, 20, 30, 40 different instructors.
And keep in mind what sort of things each instructor did that worked for me and what things kind of just went over my head.
And I'm trying to pick the best parts of each instructor that I had previously.
(15:33):
So that I can relate to that. That worked for me.
And I tried to scatter that throughout the lectures that I'd present and, you know, over the subsequent 30 years teaching.
One of the things that I want to go back to that links to what you just said is that in your dossier
you note the importance of fostering and nurturing students self-efficacy.
(15:57):
So. Right. Yeah, but that's that's something that to me,
I think, in a stats class that's particularly challenging because they come in thinking they can't do it right.
And you have to turn that around to of course you can do it. Yeah.
I mean. So how do you do this? Stats is a different type of course
then let's say introductory psychology. Students come into introductory psychology saying I'm great with people I know I can read my friend,
(16:24):
I know a lot about this stuff from my everyday life.
And so they think, hey, I can do this. I can learn about psychology.
But then they come into a stats course, and if I had a dollar for every time a student has come to me at the beginning of the first class and said,
I'm really worried about this point, I'm not good at math.
(16:44):
You'd be a millionaire. Yeah I would have retired years and years ago if I had a
buck each time I heard that.
And so what I'm trying to let them know right from the start is that I know a lot of students go into psychology because they don't like numbers,
they don't like math. They want to stay away from the physical sciences, for instance.
(17:05):
But you can do math. You can do stats. The things that you need to know
at the start of this stats course, how to add, subtract, multiply, divide square and square root,
and a little bit of algebra formulas. That sounds manageable.
If you know that, you've got all the basic tools that you need, all the math tools that you need, to be successful in a stats course,
(17:31):
We'll be introducing some new mathematical and statistical concepts as we go through the course,
but they will always build on simpler material that we've covered in previous classes.
So we'll go step by step from you know, x equals mx plus B all the way through to something like
(17:51):
a huge formula that has 20 or 5 x's, and 9 y's and squares and square roots.
You'll be able to get through as long as you can do basic math, you'll do it.
And I've heard from students so many times at the end of
the course or even after convocation when I see them with their parents, I was so worried about the math in that course
(18:16):
but, it wasn't bad. I got through and I actually enjoyed it.
So that's very gratifying to let them know that you can master math.
You can. And and if nothing else, if they don't remember the statistical formulas or how to do a t-test five years after they graduate,
(18:36):
I'm hoping that they keep in mind that they can competently and confidently work with math,
work with numbers, and I'd be grateful if they forget all the stats they know
but have that increased self-efficacy when it comes to working with numbers.
Yeah, I would say that you do, however, also provide them with lots of support on the basic math.
(19:02):
Like I notice that you've got, you know, if you want to review on this,
look at this and you've got some videos and you've got some resources and you'll have lots of. Have lots of practice problems.
Yeah. Point them out to videos on YouTube. Yeah. I tell them that we've got some fantastic TAs in the course who are graduate students
or themselves have taken an introductory stats course and then known and got through it
(19:25):
and they got through it and excelled at it. So there are lots of support, lots of resources.
Come and ask me if you have questions about something and if I can't answer it, I'll look it up, I'll find something,
some material that will help you get over that hurdle and it will help me the next
time I teach the course to realize what sort of steps you were a little confused on.
(19:50):
And we'll get through that. And I'll be mentioning that to subsequent classes.
How many students in the class again around? It ranges from 150 to 250 students in class.
A lot of students in these stats courses. Yeah, it's a lot. And so I can't learn all of their names.
But I do hope to talk to some of them before or after class or during office hours
(20:14):
or in the last few years over zoom turn office hours or some other time.
Yeah, so big classes. And I try to keep as personable as I can.
One of the things that I noticed also in the dossier is, you know, so the department was hoping to move statistics online into an online format.
(20:36):
Yes. And initially you were reluctant and thinking how is this going to go putting statistics online?
Because I would expect that moving a statistics course,
one that has many supportive exercises and resources for the students that you have created I would think that'd be very challenging.
(20:57):
So just your thoughts on moving a course like this online and keeping it fresh and real.
And you know, I'm thinking about your dad jokes. Do they translate into an online format.
Like how do you do it. Yeah. No, dad jokes not as much because they're more off the cuff.
Yes. But for years and years I was reluctant, although we were moving some courses online in psychology.
(21:22):
Right. I was reluctant to do a stats course because I thought this is material that it's really important to have interactions going on.
Yeah. To have someone there to help them over the problems that they may have or to get lots of practice because we do a lot practice in class,
(21:42):
going, learning how to use this formula to arrive at an answer.
And so I was reluctant to suggest that we make the stats course an online course.
But then two things changed my mind about that. One was the Psych Department said we need to have this course online.
There's no choice. We're going to do it so that students can do their entire psych degree online.
(22:06):
So that kind of got me over the first hurdle.
The second was the advances that have been made?
Yes. In technology? Yes. And the way that online courses are delivered over the last ten, even five years,
going from sending out videotapes of a lecture, of a live lecture, for instance, that's how we used to do distance education.
(22:30):
Now it's done online. And there are ways to incorporate print technology using interactive quizzes, using apps and hyperlinks
Absolutely. Absolutely. Using all of this wonderful wizardry that the tech team here at Laurier,
(22:50):
through teaching and learning, they know this stuff so well.
And then we get good training. We get really good training.
Yeah. And so they were really able to create a lot of interactive things that would keep people engaged,
rather than just reading through stuff and working through their problems. Doing assignments.
Yeah. They every, you know, 30, 15, 20 minutes, they have something they have to do on their own to work their problem or to think about,
(23:20):
how this relates to something you've done and write down or do multiple choice type questions.
It's really amazing how the technology can be used to keep them engaged.
Not maybe to the same extent that they would in the classroom, but there are students who are,
you know, highly motivated to to work on their own, to work independently.
(23:44):
And we try to give them all the tools to succeed in order to be able to do that.
And so there's a little less off the cuff stuff that I would bring up in class.
But there is more structure to it. And you know, I'm trying to improve that online course term by term as well.
And with the help of the tech team and all the resources available
(24:06):
Lots of practice problems. But I think students are doing pretty well at learning the material.
And you think that you're able to maintain that student centered approach that you, you know, you're clearly known for in your in-person class.
I tried to, there's a lot of quirkiness there, I mention a lot about zombies in class. Zombies and statistics, I love it.
(24:26):
But, yes, and other things about again to,
Doctor Little kind of demonstrated trying to write stories into the online lessons so that they would be able to
to see where we're going and how we get there.
And are you going to continue to teach online? I may, haven't committed to anything yet. Just thinking about
(24:52):
how you'll want to use your time.
In thinking about your in-person class, the students coming into lecture, and, you know,
you've said a number of times now that you're very busy in class, you're constantly practicing, you're doing things, you're applying things.
How do you do that in a large lecture?
(25:13):
The reason I ask is because this is one of the most significant challenges
I would say for faculty at Laurier and elsewhere is how to engage your students in large lectures.
How do you keep them active and engaged?
Especially, you know, I was reading a statistic the other day that the average focus time for a post-secondary student is eight minutes now.
(25:39):
Oh, this is after cell phones and social media, you know, apps and all of these, in eight minutes.
So how do you keep them engaged? You know, especially with the material, like what are you doing with them in class?
Well, in the beginning, way back in that previous millennium, when I was first teaching, the classes were smaller.
Yes. And so, yeah, you could keep their attention, keep their focus pretty well if there are 30 or 35 students in the class.
(26:04):
But now that there are over 100 or 200, it is a little more difficult.
And students do have I find less of an attention span
these days. Yes. Yeah. The evidence supports that.They may be easily distracted
way back in the 90s. And when they were
they might doodle or they might write out a shopping list or count the number of dots on the ceiling or something like that.
(26:31):
Now they're distracted in different ways. They have their phones.
Yeah. They have their laptop or tablet in front of them.
And so it's very easy for them to take their attention away from the material that's been presented.
And so by throwing things in there that maybe they're not expecting by using maybe an off color joke or story that way.
(26:57):
You do this a few times early in the course, and you're hoping that students will say, hey, what's he going to do this time?
What's he going to be saying that is really quirky
or weird that I can talk about later on.
And so. Letting them know that the something may come up that is going to be of interest to you
(27:19):
even if you're not interested in stats, can help to hold their attention.
And as well being kind of low key.
I use a lot of self-deprecating humour.
A lot of I sometimes I will intentionally make a mistake when I'm doing an equation on the board and I say, is that right?
Can anyone tell me if I've made a mistake here? And do you find that they're like, what's this?
(27:42):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they do say, yeah, you've used the wrong number there or you haven't square rooted down there.
And then I'm hoping that in subsequent classes, students will be keen to try and be the one that's to notice, not error.
Yeah. And so they're saying yeah okay, that's what X is and that's what Y is.
(28:04):
And it looks like everything's okay. So trying to have them see
maybe they can see where I've tripped up and to realize that it's okay to make mistakes.
As long as you double-check your work or you have someone else checking your work, a lot of eyes on your work that's going to work.
And are they doing actual problems in class, or is that mainly for lab?
(28:28):
Because I know you do labs as well. In the labs we use statistical software.
Yes. But in class we tend to do hand calculations. Great. And some other profs who teach stats say hand calculations?
Nobody does hand calculations anymore. We have SPSS to do that for us.
But right since day one I've been getting them to do hand calculations to see how they get
(28:51):
a numerator for a formula and a denominator and what goes into the top of the fraction,
the bottom of the fraction, what it all means. I think you don't get that when you're doing an SPSS analysis.
You just get a number in.
And so to see where the numbers are coming from, I think it's important for them to realize what goes into the formulas and to work through the,
(29:15):
the formulas and equations right from step one down to the final answer.
It's funny that you say that because you're actually the cutting edge, because the, you know,
what education researchers are saying now in order to address the problems with generative AI and
what's happening with academic integrity and disengagement and digital distractions in the classroom,
(29:40):
and trying to keep students focused and engaged, get them to handwrite notes in class, to do exercises in the class.
So you're actually you're cutting edge. In the early days. Old school is cutting edge now for Max.
Back when we would use overheads.
Meaning you know when you wrote on plastic and projected up. Yes I remember. I used to use overheads. In the early days
(30:03):
You're dating both of us right now.
In the early days, I would, instead of producing pre-made overheads, that I would then flip up and write everything down
I moved to just writing everything on the board or everything on the overhead itself, so that students would be able to keep up with the material.
Right? And they would work along with me to write things down as I wrote. As you're writing.
(30:27):
Yes. And I knew that I was going at the right pace, so I wasn't going faster than they would be able to attend to to encode as well.
And remember later on. And then after a few years I got to know what pace I could go at.
Yes. Where I can go quicker and where I can go slower. So I was in the Goldilocks zone in terms of write speed and material presentation.
(30:51):
Not too fast, not too slow. And so I would create handouts or in the later years, create PowerPoint slides.
That has a lot of the information so they don't have to write it down.
But I tell them there are blanks. There are spaces on the slides or on the handouts and you fill them in.
(31:12):
Right. Cause the research tells us that when students write something down
by hand I have better retention, better retention, better encoding, better ability to recall it later on.
Yeah. So I say don't just sit there. Don't just tape record, audio record the lesson.
Instead write it down by hand and it'll pay off in the long run.
(31:34):
Yeah. For sure.
So when you alongside all of your teaching you have also been undergraduate advisor in the department for 14 years or something like that.
About half the time I've been here, I've been undergrad advisor as well.
And that's, it's a very complimentary. It's a lot of work
(31:54):
first of all. Especially in a large, complex multi-pronged program like psychology.
But it also is helpful in terms of giving you a different perspective on the students.
Because you actually see some of their struggles.
Right. Exactly. That you may not be aware of
(32:17):
as the professor at the front of the classroom or during office hours.
That's right. So just your thoughts on you know what I mean? It's exactly that.
As an advisor, you get the opportunity to ask students about their experience,
you know, over the last week what's gone right for you, what's gone wrong?
(32:37):
What are you finding and what are you struggling with?
Yeah. In your program or as a university student?
What are you really proud of that you've done in a course so far.
And you get that more one on one completely away from course material.
But how they're faring as a student, how they're striving as a student.
(33:00):
Yeah. And so that can help to address our teaching as well.
Absolutely. Because you're thinking, oh, I could be doing X, Y, or Z in order to support students in these different ways, right?
Yes. As an instructor, when we're preparing a course or preparing a particular lecture,
we tend to treat it as if it's the only thing that the student is going to hear, not me or this term, whereas they're doing 4 or 5 other courses.
(33:26):
And so as an instructor, when as we kind of be aware that we've got to keep our course load manageable our material
manageable, not to have too many quizzes,
not to have exams the same weeks that they have exams and all the other courses because you hear from students during academic advising
(33:48):
I had four midterms in two days, and it was just impossible for me to concentrate on any of them or to partition my time that way.
So I'm learning what students are liking, disliking within that program and within the classroom
Really helps as an instructor, but as an academic divisor
(34:09):
it's really helpful. And it's so rewarding as well.
Yeah. Because when you have a large class, you think that you're helping, you know, 200 students at a time learning course material.
And you see at the end how well they do on an exam. And if they do well,
you're kind of pleased that you were able to do that. As an advisor students may come to you with sometimes small questions.
(34:33):
How do I add a minor to my program? Yeah. Or big questions.
What can I do with my degree in psychology. And if you can give them some solutions, some answers, suggestions for that
it really is rewarding because in the course of a day you may have solved 12 students problems and that's 12 humps 12 hurdles
(34:58):
that you've had those students get over and,
it's nice to think that you're really helping them on an individual basis and not just helping them in classes of 250 at a time.
You know, I was going to ask you, what do you think your greatest achievement in your teaching career is.
But I think I need to ask you, what do you consider your greatest achievements in your teaching career?
(35:22):
You just were talking about one of your achievements is supporting students in their undergraduate pathway.
But, you know, if you think back, what what are your greatest achievements?
When I go to convocation and I try to go to as many convocations as I can, and speak to students afterwards,
it's gratifying to hear students say,
(35:43):
you really helped me through a time when I was thinking about giving up on university or changing my major to something else,
because of this one course, this one instructor, and it's I find it's an achievement
each time that I hear that from a student.
And so a lot of these little achievements, helping them out, hearing that a course wasn't as bad as I thought it was and things like that,
(36:08):
I find are those mini achievements that help to keep you going from year to year.
Plus, plus.
One of the ways in which I think you've also been really influential is you have that thesis course for fourth year students.
But you you help them participate in the thesis conference.
Can you talk just a little bit about that thesis conference?
(36:30):
Is that something that's disciplinary or? Within the psychology department, students who are doing a thesis
will at the end of the year, second to last week of the winter term, present their research findings in a poster conference.
Wonderful. This is amazing. And you organize this? Well, some years I would.
(36:50):
Other years I teach the fall term of the course, and someone else does the winter term in which they organize the project.
But over my years, I've organized a lot of these.
And it's great that students are able to present their work, present their "babies" that they've been working on for the last year,
(37:12):
eight months or a whole year, and present it to other students, some of whom they know nothing in the area and be able to take
one small research question and show how they use methodology in statistics and research designed to answer that question
to come to a conclusion and to chip off a little bit of what's not known about psychology in general.
(37:39):
And so it's very gratifying for students at the end to go through that
and once that conference is over to see them all be like, oh, it's done,
it was fun, I really enjoyed that. That's really gratifying as well.
We've had a couple of Ontario undergraduate thesis conferences where thesis students in
(38:00):
psychology from all universities in Ontario would come to Laurier and do the same sort of thing.
That's wonderful. And so I've organized a couple of those conferences and it's terrific.
It's a non-judgmental way for students to be able to present their research.
But, you know, this must be for some of those students,
first of all, the first time that they formulate a research question as well as develop the research design,
(38:29):
choose a methodology, do some empirical work, write up your findings down to doing the graphics on the poster.
All of those things, that's a wonderful culmination of the undergraduate experience.
It is, and it sets them up for a career. For grad school. So you must hear from them. Yes.
I've had many of my undergrad thesis students go on to grad school in psychology or medical school or teachers college or law school.
(38:57):
And the information that they gain from doing a thesis really helps them realize how they
have to work through a project right from the beginning question until the end result and
conclusion. And I have to mention among my achievements, if there's one achievement that I'll probably remember for a long time,
it's being nominated by my colleagues in the psych department for the Donald F. Morgenson Award.
(39:24):
And it was a team nomination. It was wonderful. It was humbling and very gratifying.
I really appreciated that. So let me pick up on that and ask you is there any advice you could give to somebody,
a new faculty member, in psychology who's starting on their teaching career,
(39:45):
what would you say to them? Well, if I were to go back in time and speak to
me in 1993, I'd say, again, you can do this.
It's maybe difficult, there's a lot of material but
you'll get through it in the first year. There are lots of resources to use.
(40:08):
You should be speaking to your colleagues in the department about teaching the course.
Go to the experts, read as much as you can
from learned teachers, read books from experienced instructors to find out some
techniques and tactics that you can use in your own course to help students learn.
(40:32):
Come and engage with us at Teaching Excellence and Innovation
That's right. The university has workshops,
they have experts you can consult with
and it's not something that you have to get 100% right the first time.
Over the years, each time you teach a course, you'll know what works and what doesn't work.
(40:53):
And you'll be able to add to it. And also, you know, be yourself.
Don't force yourself into a role. I love that.
Don't try to be someone who gets up there and gives fact after fact
After fact. When I think of my own undergrad and grad
courses that I took. My two instructors that stand out,
(41:16):
most were Dr. Little who we've spoken about, and another instructor who was kind of just the facts and he would be as dry as a desert
but he would present the information, and he did it in a way that worked. His style wasn't, you know, wasn't Hollywood or anything like that.
(41:40):
It wasn't totally engaging. But he made sure to present the information in a way that we could understand.
And he would present it and at the end of the class, at the end of the term, we would've learn the material.
So you don't have to be a doctor X, who is very dry,
just presenting the facts. You don't have to be a doctor Y who is really showy and engaging and is fun to work with, fun in class.
(42:08):
You don't have to be one or the other. Do whatever works for you.
Embrace your quirkiness. Exactly. Students will know if they're putting on a false front.
And so although you can
take on a role that may not be your your role outside of class,
that's fine. Dr. Little showed me that you can be an introvert
(42:31):
In a lot of social situations, such as he said he was
and that's why I am as well quite introverted.
But in the classroom, you can take on a persona
sometimes that may not be you initially, but you can develop and that you can use to help to engage students.
(42:52):
And you'll see what works and what you feel comfortable with and, you know, learn from each time you teach a class,
you get better and better at your role as instructor and find out what does work and what doesn't work for you and for the students.
So can I ask you what you're most looking forward to in retirement then?
Because here you are waxing poetic about your teaching.
(43:15):
Well I'm looking at the day that I'll be retiring.
I'm not necessarily counting down the days, but
it's going to be bittersweet because I'm really going to miss interacting with my colleagues and teaching classes, being in the classroom is special.
And they'll all miss you. Clearly. Some more than others [laughs].
I haven't made any big plans for retirement other than doing those household things that I've been putting off the last five years,
(43:45):
saying I don't have to paint that door now. I can do it once I retire.
So there are those chores. Except now there's a list. Yeah, and it's going to take me quite a while to cross things off that to do list.
I'm also looking forward to spending more time with my family. So I'll have the opportunity to be able to do that.
(44:05):
Looking forward to sleeping in a little bit more, staying up late,
reading some good books that don't have to do with statistics or psychology, some trashy novels.
Yeah, true crime, etc. That's awesome. So looking forward to it.
But also, I'll be missing the whole classroom experience.
(44:26):
Well, as I said, I'm sure Laurier will be missing you.
Thank you, Max, so much for joining me here today. I've really enjoyed our discussion.
It's been a joy as well. Thanks, Max. Thank you. My thanks to Max Gwynn for joining me here today.
And I hope you will join me for more conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
(44:47):
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
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