March 14, 2025 • 54 mins
Join 2024 Faculty Mentoring Award recipient Michael Woodford from Laurier’s Faculty of Social Work as he shares how some of the mentors along his personal and professional journey impacted him, the importance of sharing power in mentoring relationships, and the value of creating spaces where students can thrive as their authentic selves. Whether navigating difficult conversations, developing adaptable work plans, or helping students build lasting professional networks, his mentorship philosophy centers on collaboration, reflexivity, and meeting students where they are. Michael’s mentorship is built on experience and vulnerability and he discusses how faculty can empower students, foster inclusive and interpersonal learning environments, and reflects on how great mentoring shapes not only academic success but also lifelong growth.
Laurier’s Donald F. Morgenson Awards for Teaching Excellence honour those who, through their commitment to exemplary teaching, have made significant contributions to the educational experience of Laurier students. Learn more about award-winning teaching at Laurier.
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[Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.]Welcome to Laurier's Teaching Excellence Conversation series.
I'm Deborah VanNijnatten and academic director of Teaching Excellence and Innovation at Wilfrid Laurier University.
And today, I'm with Michael Woodford from the Faculty of Social Work, who received the 2024 Faculty Mentoring Award.
With a passionate commitment to social justice, equity, and advancing LGBTQ inclusion,
(00:23):
Michael has significantly impacted the academic and personal development of his students through a mentoring philosophy grounded in empowerment,
collaboration, and reflexivity. And throughout his career at Laurier,
he's been dedicated to fostering inclusive and supporting learning environments and guiding students to excel as emerging scholars and practitioners.
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Michael's transformative approach to mentorship and teaching has inspired students and colleagues alike,
making him an outstanding recipient of the Faculty Mentoring Award, and I'm excited to talk to him today.
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So Michael, thank you so much for joining me here today.
And congratulations on being the Faculty Mentoring Award recipient.
Thank you so much. And it's such an honor. Mentoring is something you know.
It strikes me that we as faculty, we do throughout our careers, we do in different ways,
but we don't always reflect on mentorship like we do on teaching and other aspects of our teaching practice.
(01:44):
So I would really like to start today with what drives your mentorship in your teaching.
So, were there particular mentors that framed and helped you have the perspective that you do on mentoring today?
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think coming from social work, things are somewhat unique. When I think about my own experiences,
(02:07):
even as an undergraduate social work student, key to social work education is field learning.
So the field practicum we often call it. It's sometimes in the literature referred to as the signature pedagogy.
So even in my undergrad, I had somebody who was supervising me in, applying what I was learning Actively.
(02:28):
Absolutely. And even though we called them a field supervisor, often, they were much more than that.
And really a mentor. And I think back to, you know, both of my undergrad degree and master's are in social work,
as is my PhD, but especially in the undergrad and the master's degree, those field practicums.
And I think back to some of those individuals. My first field supervisor happened to be a faculty member,
(02:52):
and because I was in an agency where there wasn't a social worker who could take on that role.
And so I would say in hindsight, I'd say that was really fortunate because I learned so much from from her.
And it wasn't just about the applications of skill and knowledge and values.
It was also who you are as a social worker.
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So really who you are as an individual and thinking about how you bring your whole self right? And sometimes difficult conversations in that field
supervision, where she's pushing me around things and there were certain things that as a social worker, I felt very natural.
Or as a social work student, very natural for me to do. Other things were really on my learning edge and she would push me around those things.
(03:35):
So learning by that immersion was so important. And then, you know, similarly in my master's field placement,
but also having some great faculty, I had the opportunity, though, as part of my master's degree
to do a program called the Graduate Teaching Program,
which was an initiative of the School of Grad Studies at Memorial, I just got to ask, where was this?
(03:57):
Where I did both my undergrad and my masters, and that was an opportunity to participate in sort of a 3 or 4 day boot camp in teaching.
So teaching theory and such. But most critical to that experience was the opportunity to actually teach in your discipline.
The program itself actually asked you or expected you to do one lecture in the fall term and another lecture in the winter term.
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So this is unusual. This is at an earlier stage. Like usually graduate students get this in their PhD and often towards the end of the PhD.
Right? So this is quite unique. Because in fact, if you look at my teaching history,
I started to teach as a part time faculty member, you know, like two years after my master's degree.
Yeah. Wow. Right. Yeah.But so central to that actual exposure of teaching was that you had a mentor in your field who was called a mentor,
(04:48):
who was a very dear friend of mine who is still teaching at Memorial.
And because of the courses she was teaching, I said, well, rather than just coming to do a lecture,
I know what you do in those classes because I took one of those courses with you.
I'm going to commit to being there every week.
And so what evolved from, I'm going to say, a very structured co-teaching model, evolved into something that was very collaborative,
(05:14):
very much based on empowerment, the sharing of power.
Here she was, you know, a tenured faculty member sharing power with me, a graduate student teaching undergraduate students.
So demonstrating that sort of responsible sharing of power, the mutual trust, the ongoing communication, you know, was so critical.Collaborative classroom.
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And that for me, thinking about teaching in general and also mentoring students in their research was so fundamental.
And then when I think about moving on to doing my master's thesis, the person who was my advisor also,
just like one of the things that I really appreciated was that she wasn't just interested in my my research,
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she was interested in me as a person. What I wanted to do, what I wanted to achieve through that,
but also as I was making career decisions and things like that.
So there was more than just, you know, the focus on that.
So and then when I look at my PhD experiences, you know, I had a really excellent supervisor who was very strong mentor to me,
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including thinking about moving into academia and such.
But I also worked with other faculty members through their research.
And in fact, this morning I met with one of those people.
And part of that conversation was, I need some mentoring advice on this, and I'm almost 20 years doing this.
Yeah Right? So it's pretty significant, you know, and so those relationships were really important.
(06:39):
And thinking about also you can hear from that conversation I had more than one mentor.
Really, really pivotal and important. Yeah. Helping you really kind of form your own philosophy of mentorship collaborative exploring, empowering and longterm.
And as a student, the fact that you go to different people for different things.
And we often think about especially if someone's doing a thesis or doing an independent studies course,
(07:02):
Well, we're not an independent studies course, but doing an MRP,or they're doing, a dissertation that they have their supervisor.
Yeah, that supervisor is a main contact. And it means support a main mentor.
But there are other individuals, some of whom may not even be on your committee, that you seek out support for, for different things.
Yeah.
And so that's why I think it's really important for students, but also faculty when we're mentoring students to think about who are the other people.
(07:30):
And sometimes as a mentor, part of my job is to facilitate a connection with you.
Yeah. You know, with somebody else, with another faculty member who, you know,
has experience in that methodology or has experience in the content that that
students about to teach for their first time teaching as a CTF colleague,
for example. Yeah, I often think that it, you know, and a little play on the usual phrase, it takes a village to create an academic. Yeah.
(07:57):
It really does. Right? This lovely network of people that are that accompany, we'll call them a young researcher, right on a on their journey.
Yeah, absolutely. And when I think about other pivotal forces,And that's a really nice way to look at it.
I have to say, like my family, my parents, both of whom, you know, highly of our valued education,
never obtained post-secondary education, wasn't available to them.
(08:21):
I'm sure they're so thrilled with you. But, you know, like the the dedication certainly networking,
to dedication to hard work, but also the dedication to asking critical questions.
Yeah. Yeah.And sometimes pushing back on things. When something doesn't make sense,
like, why are we doing it?
Why is this, so on and so forth, you know, and certainly, and especially for my, for my dad, I would say the commitment to helping others.
(08:47):
And so, you know, maybe that's partially why I went into social work as a career.
But I think continuing that as an academic and, you know,
students are one of the primary groups that I work with and the communities that I work with in my research.
And so it's more than just giving the numbers or giving the research reports or, you know, just giving feedback.
It's really, you know, meeting people where they are and figuring out a plan together to move to where they need to be or want to be, you know,
(09:14):
Well, let's let's follow up on that, because you've got a real focus throughout your career on social justice and empowerment, as we talked about.
Right? So, you know, how do you integrate these principles into your interactions with your students?
Well, when I think about, again, that sort of idea of starting where the person is and, you know,
lwhen somebody comes to me says, hey, I'm Michael, I'm thinking about doing a master's thesis.
(09:37):
You know, that conversation is a little bit of an assessment interview, in a way, because I want to get a sense, what's your motivation?
Why do you want to do this? You know, what is that about?
What's your preparedness? What's going to happen when challenges happen?
Yeah. Right? And some of that is like, so especially if somebody has just relocated to to the region for school,
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how are they trying to build a community with others?
Because there's going to be points where you're going to feel like, I want to give up.And you need your community. That's right.
Right? You know, and so, you know, thinking about how do I actually build relationships with other people who are doing a thesis, for example?
So I'm not just alone. And, you know, and I think there's challenges to that today, especially post-pandemic.
(10:19):
And, you know, people. Yeah, time is precious. There's so many other things happening in people's lives.
So there are challenges. I'm trying to be realistic about that.
I often also share my own journey, which, you know, is not sort of a traditional kind of journey academically.
You know, I sort of shopped around at my undergrad, you know, I never thought I was going to be an academic, even after doing a master's thesis.
(10:41):
I was like, no, I never thought that, you know, I share how.I didn't either.
No?No, no, I didn't expect it. There's something that happens.
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Becuase the light bulb comes on in your (GASP). Yeah.
And so because and for me that part of that academic journey was I had been teaching at Memorial I, you know, part time.
I enjoyed it a lot really got, you know, some wonderful feedback.
(11:04):
You know, I was effective at what I was doing. I was like, oh, maybe I would like to do this.
And to be honest, I applied to do a PhD because I thought I wanted to,
my passion was teaching. Yeah. It was in my PhD program that my passion for research really developed.
Right? And so when I think about working with our doctoral students, especially in our field,
(11:25):
where doctoral students are often returning to school after ten years,
15 years of practice, now, my gap wasn't as big as that,
but helping them understand that when I came in, to do my my PhD, I had to figure out exactly what was my focus.
I had a general idea, you know, and I think about my colleagues around, you know,
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the seminar table and many people, you know, ended up going in completely different directions and such.
So some of that is like normalizing how that exploration is just comment.
Right? When I also think about the past four years as the associate dean for our PhD program,
actually building in processes within courses to actually enable that and talk about that.
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Inviting other faculty to come in to talk about their own journeys academically, because it's not necessarily a clear,
neat path from A, B and C, and this C is the research question I want to answer.
I don't know that you're going to figure that out, right? Yeah. And it's a hard process.
Yeah. Students get frustrated along the way. But you've created I would say a sort of a landscape for students in your programs.
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It's not only in courses because you've also got these things happening outside of courses that students can go to,
guest speakers and special workshops and all of these places to sort of help them on that journey towards, okay, this is what I want to do, right?
And also, you know, if students are deciding to be researchers or practitioners or academics, you know,
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traditional academics kind of thing, you know, it's not just the research, it's not just the theory,
it's not just that. It's also the interpersonal.
Yeah. Who am I? Right. And that reflexivity and how you relate to others.
And so, you know, just as you mentioned building in some of those other learning opportunities.
(13:25):
And again, it's starting where. So this is who this person is.
This is their experiences. This is where they want to go. So this is these are the things we need to put in place.
And not all of it falls to the mentor and hopefully our program,
so for example ASPIRE is a great initiative.Yes. Yep.
Right? So building on that and sometimes part of our mentorship is building in a plan with a student to say,
(13:46):
so what are the ASPIRE programing that you're going to take part in this this semester?
What are the things you can do outside to complement, help you on your journey. Yes, because
it's not all within the faculty or departments purview to be able to do all of these things.
And so there's a great community of resources that can support students and such.
You know? I think also so thinking about my research, which is around to 2SLGBTQ students and their experiences and communities in general,
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you know, a number of Queer and Trans students are drawn to me and the work that we do.
And of course, that's really important.
And, you know, I often, you know, in some of those conversations, not necessarily initially, but I like hear about their
experiences and, you know, often their negative, their places of, you know, this wasn't a safe space for me.
(14:36):
Yeah. An opportunity for me This wasn't, you know And especially,
yeah, and especially undergrad students. But also I hear it from grad students, you know.
And so thinking about how is it that we create those spaces where people can be who they are and also be spaces where,
you know, their strengths can come out. DEBORA (14:50):
And develop. MICHEAL
And so sometimes it's like highlighting the resilience and the resistance that they might have demonstrated, you know,
in the fact, you know, many years ago when I was working in the States, a colleague asked me, why is it that I focus
on university students and not thinking about high school students.
And I said, well, I think we need to pay attention to the people who survived high school.
(15:12):
And it's not easy necessarily.That's right. At the university level. You know,
much of my my research has really delved into the more subtle forms of discrimination, microaggressions and such.
And, you know, this was a university that was known as very, very progressive and liberal, you know,
but the students who were coming to meet with me, we're talking about, and they weren't using the term microaggressions,
(15:33):
but they were talking about microaggressions happening in schools of social workers like. I bet you, you know,
things and even, you know, more negative things and more blatant things are happening in other contexts.
And we need to understand that. And so again, though, in working with students, I often share my own journey.
And, you know, just even that talking about microaggressions prompted me to say,
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like I often say to doctoral students especially, I now do things that I never thought I would do when I was a doctoral student.
And then what do you mean by that? I said, so, you know, A) my topic was very different from my dissertation.
It was completely qualitative. Now I do things such as developing and testing microaggressions, scales completely quantitative, but I also do them.
(16:17):
And you teach the quantitative methods course. But I also do it in a way that's collaborative.
So I'll give you an example. When we were developing a Trans microaggression scale,
there's a process within that testing of a scale quantitatively where you have to make some judgment calls.
as the researcher. I don't live this world as a Trans person,
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so making decisions about which items in the scale really have more relevance shouldn't come from me.
Yeah. So we did essentially a focus group process with Trans colleagues and scholars and students to engage in that.
And so create.And create the scale And create the scale and doing it in a collaborative kind of way.
(16:58):
And actually, I want to go back to your earlier question about other people who've inspired me as,
as a mentor. Makes you think about somebody else.
Well, it does, and so I think about especially some of the people who I work with in my research students,
but also other faculty members and especially Trans colleagues who have really,
you know, been so supportive, but also have taught me so much in that process.
(17:21):
And, you know, in order to do that, you have to go in and say, I don't know everything, and I need to learn.
That's my job. That's my responsibility, you know?
And so, you know, going back to that example of the person who is my teaching mentor, I have to be willing to share power in a way and be vulnerable,
you know, and be able to say, yeah, like, you know, I live this world is a cis person.
(17:43):
I'm doing work, and important work with Trans people.
I need to have, you know, my own,
I need to do my own work. And that's really important when I think about that. Learning along the way. Yeah, learning along the way.
So one of the other unique aspects of mentoring in social work is that you have
students coming from non-traditional pathways and in many other faculties,
(18:07):
it's a little bit more conventional going through your undergrad and then going to graduate work.
But you have, I'm assuming, professionals coming back, people with different kinds of life experiences.
So that makes the mentoring sort of journey, and the creation of a network of support also quite different.
Yeah, absolutely. And as you were asking the question, I obviously think about our doctoral students, but we also have master's students.
(18:32):
At that level as well. And especially because of our online MSW program, which reaches people, you know,
throughout the country, we're reaching people who've been in practice for ten years.
We've been reaching people who, you know, who've been who are in leadership positions,
who are executive directors, And they're coming back. To do a master's degree.
Yeah, yeah. Right? And they're coming back for that advanced training.
(18:54):
And, you know, which is so important.
And then when we think about our PhD students and we really value that practice experience because it informs the research that doctoral students do,
it also informs the teaching that they may do in their future.
And so, you know, we we look at that and, you know, I think one point last year,
we did the math and I think it was something like 15 years since on average, since people have done their master's degree.
(19:20):
And I once had a student who was coming into our program. On average, sorry, I'm just I'm just absorbing that.
Yeah. YeahThat is a very different profile. I could be wrong on that.
I should remember the number better. In any case. Its ten years plus for sure.
There was a doctoral student a few years ago who was accepted into our program.
And, you know, I was doing a meeting in a meeting with them and they asked, I said, Michael, I think we're probably around the same age.
(19:44):
You know, what's changed the most since I was a student?
And the first thing that came to mind, Debora, was the card catalog said it doesn't exist anymore.
Right. It doesn't exist anymore. You can be inundated with information so easily because it's so accessible.
So A) That's not going to be an efficient use of your time.
(20:06):
So you need to know how to use search that information.Yeah. How do you find what's what's useful.
And second.What's important. And what's also credible.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes indeed, that's right. Yeah. Right. Whats riggorus. And so when we think about for example, you referenced the quant course that I teach.
So it's a quantitative research methods course. And then data analysis. And then data analysis is a separate course.
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But we emphasize actually critical appraisal of quantitative research.
Because just because it's published doesn't mean it's good research. Absolutely right.
And so that kind of critical thinking applied to research is so important.
And so, you know, like again, thinking where is this person?
And especially, you know, people have other things happening in their lives.
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How do we help them balance that? And sometimes, you know, especially in students I work with, one on one, I might,
and also people who I've worked with just generally in the doctoral program,
I've had to have hard conversations and say, like, you know, you've got a lot going on.
You're not prioritizing your work right now in terms of your schoolwork.
You know what's happening. Can I, what can we do? Sometimes it's a student may take a leave.
(21:14):
Yeah. A student may, you know, go to part time status, for example, those kinds of things,
or connecting them with some other supports or a learning opportunity,
you know, or and, you know, in some situations it's sort of a short lived kind of experience.
It's like, okay, well, we can keep going for another month and we'll check in and see how it goes in that way.
So that's really important.
Also, one of the things we pride ourselves on within social work and other disciplines, of course, is the diversity of our students.
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So, you know, you know, inclusion, equity, reflexivity are critical to what we're trying to do.
And so in the doctoral program, for example, students thinking about their own social positionality, what those mean in the world.
What they mean for their research, and also how it means how they interact with their colleagues in that shared space of learning and such.
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So, of course, as faculty, you know, we're role modeling that.
And so I talk about so that agency where I did my first field placement was Newfoundland and Labrador is only immigrant serving agency.
It's still Newfoundland and Labradors only primary immigrant settlement agency.
I was there, you know, first social worker. And it was an agency where I had to say before the term reflexivity was being used,
(22:26):
I had to think about it. I had to start thinking about what does it mean to be a Canadian citizen, to be white, to be, you know,
privileged in many ways to work with people who are, you know, immigrants or refugee claimants to the country.
Many of us in teaching talk about some of those experiences that come from the field.
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Maybe if I hadn't worked in the field, I wouldn't have that experience.
But, you know, that's really, you know, that sort of, you know, appropriate sharing,
role modeling is really important as well. But, you know, one thing that is just so outstanding in your dossier is that the mentorship
you offer students just goes across the full, you know, range of educational levels, right?
(23:12):
Undergraduate students, right through PhDs and then off into their careers.
And, you know, I was going to ask, you know, how does your approach differ?
You know, depending on whether a student is an undergraduate thesis student, a master's student, somebody coming in,
a senior PhD student, a beginner PhD student, somebody who's already out in their career.
(23:34):
But I think you've given us the answer, which is you're starting with getting to know who that human being is.
And then from there thinking about how do I help them on their journey, how do I create the supportive network around them?
Yes, absolutely. So again, starting where they are. But it's also collaboratively developing that plan.
(23:54):
So what is it we need. And so you know we often think about what are their strengths.
You know. So what do they feel comfortable with. Where are their learning edges. You know, what are some of those remedial things,
some of those additional things, you know.
So an example, you know, I have two students who are doing major surveys as part of their dissertation work, you know.
(24:15):
Yeah. So even though.Survey research and design. Right.
But even even though they've done statistics, you know, as part of their, training, it's like, so as you're getting ready, what can we do?
What kind of initiative can you be part of? You know. Yeah. Now, sometimes also you know, I'm actually working with somebody one on one.
We're sharing our screens, you know, so I'll go back to when I was teaching at the University of Michigan,
(24:38):
a student who did a field placement with me, which was a research focus field placement.
We were working on an analysis together. So we're sitting at my desk, we're running it, and she says, I now get statistics.
I now understand it. And so sometimes just.Watching it and doing it. And we're talking about it and say, okay, well let's, let's do this.
Oh yeah. Okay. This is great. Yes. Okay. No, we need to go in a different direction.
(25:01):
And so of course explaining. All of those decisions along the way, you know.
You know, I'm happy to say that person is now an assistant professor at a school in the US.
And, you know, like she does say to me that that work really drove her passion for research.
Right? And so when I think about, you know,
not every doctoral student is going to go on and become a faculty member or continue to do research or a master's students.
(25:26):
But if you can, you know, brighten that flame, start to get that passion going,
that's great. But again, what do we need to do to get there?
And I referenced earlier, the idea is, you know, sometimes there's difficult conversations that need to happen.
And so, you know, it's like, okay, we need to reconfigure this plan.
So I often do think about like work planning essentially.
(25:47):
You know, how do we, add those regular check ins. Right. And we see how are we doing.
You know. And you know, in today's world especially, you know, I would say, you know,
when somebody is at a phase of their research where they're collecting data,
I don't want to leave them out on their own, you know, just, you know, send me, you know, a weekly or biweekly update and we agree to that.
So there's a bit of a contracting that happens. Right.
(26:10):
And you know, if I don't hear from someone, I give them a couple of days and then I'm like, yes, Then you're like hey whats up?
Because, you know, there could be something that just like is completely beyond their control.
And especially, you know, students today, some of our students. Oh they're reluctant to reach out.
Exactly. There's an embarrassment. Right. Again.I should be hitting this out of the park.
And I'm not. Exactly. And then but, you know, us sharing those moments when I didn't hit it out of the park, you know, and, yeah,
(26:37):
that could have been last week because the faculty member. And struggled in year three or whatever. Ya, you know,
so like helping again I think to normalize that, you know, and you know but of course, you know, there are also times when,
you know, we got to say to people, you actually need to do more like, this is not meeting the expectations.
Again, that's another one of those hard conversations. But often you have that and explore
(27:01):
how do we help you get there. Right? Is is really pivotally important and effective I think in my experience.
You know often on our journey, most academics go through periods of time in their careers where, you know,
pre-tenure you're working on your research profile and you're getting your teaching organized.
And then after tenure, you know, you can be a little bit more innovative, trying new things.
(27:23):
But there comes a time at which most of us decide, are we going to contribute on the admin side or not?
Am I going to put myself forward for an administrative position?
I have to say that in your dossier, the Associate Dean of the PhD program,
it's so perfect because you were doing all of these things in terms of mentoring.
(27:48):
And then being Associate Dean seems to have given you, you know, infrastructure and tools just to ramp up what you were already doing,
right, things that you were already practicing, and then build them sort of more uniformly through the program.
Yeah, yeah. And I have to say that was It's a great, match. It was it was a great match, I have to say.
And it was an opportunity that I embraced.
(28:12):
I will say it wasn't easy because, even before my term officially started, the pandemic started.
Oh my goodness. Right. And so thinking about that isolation that students were. How do I create these things.
And how do I create that. Networks and supports. You know, but now it's like okay,
those like the opportunity to do things virtually is actually a great tool.
(28:35):
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Accessibility is wonderful. You know.
And you know a benefit we have is doctoral programs are small, you know, so classes are small you know.
But it was more than just oh how do we flip and teach online for the remaining
2 or 3 weeks of this semester and prepare for this for the spring semester?
You know, it was more than that. It was also thinking about how is it that we continue to try to have that community.
(29:00):
And so through.The spaces in between the courses, how do we fill them in and then create a webbing?
Exactly. And so what we call learning events was our mechanism to do that.
And those were, you know, things related to research, things related to, you know, going on the academic job market.
Scholarship, grant applications. Exactly.
And part of it was also, we had mechanisms to hear from students around what their needs were.
(29:25):
And so that was really important. And, you know, I also, you know, would have regular office hours, sort of dropping hours.
You know, I always added the caveat, let me know if you're coming or not, because I'm only going to hang out in the zoom room for 15 minutes.
Right. Kind of thing, you know, because I would book an hour, you know, but,
you know, like, adding that was really important.
(29:47):
And sure, some months I didn't see anybody, but it was also ensuring I always tell students I'm accessible,
like feel free to, in my Associate Dean role, reach out to me, you know, if you are having a struggle because I think,
moving into that role got me to see the big picture.
(30:08):
And I had been aware of the big picture of sort of what doctoral students were going through,
what the experiences were, where some of the gaps were in what we were doing, you know,
and, you know, some of those things we were able to close through these learning events and such.
Also how we connected our courses, like particular courses together.
And so making things a little bit more, aligned for students.
(30:33):
I'll use the word aligned, was really important.
And, you know, I was really fortunate to work with a great group of colleagues from staff and faculty who are working with our students and such.
And, you know, it was yeah, you know, it was a great experience.
Yeah. I have to say, so that, you know, it was four years in that role.
You know, one of the things that, you know, we as a faculty have decided is we've transformed our PhD program into a virtual one.
(30:56):
So because of the pandemic, it led us to realize in the spirit of accessibility, and we have students, graduates from our master's program,
for example, who would be great candidates for a PhD program, but they can't afford to leave their their community and relocate here for coursework.
And so but again, like if you were to look at that new program, it includes things like these virtual learning events,
(31:25):
you know, the series, we've actually integrated some of those things into a doctoral seminar, which is built into a course then.
But there are other key components. So if you think about the idea of community,
and I think about my own experience, you know, and how, you know,
people who are some of the folks who I did my PhD work with are such good friends because we had that community,
(31:47):
right? But one of the things we built into that new offering of the PhD program is that the dissertation
stage students will participate in a doctoral research seminar once a month until they finish,
because they're going to be in community with each other.
It'll also be run sort of like a professional development where you know it's going to be particular topics.
Again, you know, they'll come from the students and but it's also a way for them to keep in community
(32:13):
and a little bit of that accountability beyond their supervisor or beyond their
committee. Because, you know, as we both we call the writing of that dissertation was pretty isolating.
Yeah, it is right.
It is a not that type of approach, really kind of provides a spine, right, for for everything else that you're aligning around that.
Another thing that I think is, is really demonstrated in your mentoring practice is that you're not just mentoring students
(32:38):
at all phases in service professionals that come back right in unique circumstances,
focusing on who they are. It's also clear that you are focused on supporting them to be or preparing them to be change agents.
That's something different and very important.
(33:01):
And it strikes me as you're talking about, you know, students coming from at, you know,
different phases in their career, coming back to a PhD. They may already be change agents.
They may be leaders, they may want to they may want to but feel like they don't have the capacity to do that.
But that's a really important aspect of mentoring, right.
(33:22):
You can change things. Right? So how do you prepare them to do that?
So great question. And as you ask it, it causes me to think back to first of all when we think about social work we think about,
you know, clinical direct practice with individuals, which was really my emphasis at the undergrad level.
But I was also doing what we call macro work. My master's is actually in social policy administration.
(33:48):
But you bring those interpersonal skills in that context. So I think my sort of flame for leadership started at that point.
But I was working in that settlement agency where I was doing many things.
My job title was actually Social Worker and Program Coordinator.
I'm developing grants. I'm working with our service users to do needs assessments, to inform programing all of those kinds of things.
(34:15):
So I had these great opportunities to sort of make positive change,
I'm going to say, for, especially for our service users, but also for the community in general.
We tried some new initiatives. And I again, going back to working with students, I talk about some of that,
some of my experiences in practice and how I'm pushing the boundaries of social work.
(34:36):
Yeah. So even, you know, with my BSW degree in hand, which was very clinical, but also included some of the macro
training and such that I talk about that and people go, oh yeah, oh yeah.
Or I talk about when I worked with the provincial government of Newfoundland and how I would use sort of assess a
(34:58):
group and talk about how I needed to make enter a point into the conversation,
a way that people could hear it and not be defenders, not be defensive about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and such. And so thinking about some of those things. What's the crack that you leverage open. Exactly.
I always think about that. Where is that little window of opportunity. Absolutely right.
I do that my policy work.Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so thinking about some of those things and sharing some of those examples.
(35:24):
Right? And then of course students working with me, especially in research courses,
it's like, you know, how is it that this research is going to make change?
Yeah. So some of that is actually about how is the research topic being generated.
What is that about.
And so using sort of, you know, a critical paradigm to think about how is it that we use research to document systems of oppression
(35:47):
and how they manifest in people's lives? So again, I'll use my research as an example.
So, you know, I look at microaggressions on university and college campuses as one part of the focus.
I don't just look at that. I look at that around how does it affect students mental health?
How does it affect their academic performance, their persistence to degree?
(36:09):
I don't just do that for research wise.
I do that because strategically, administrators and policymakers are interested in those things. And they need to know. Right?
Those are really critical things. Yeah. Right?
And so not saying that administrators wouldn't be interested in microaggressions or discrimination alone,
but to actually show how that affects students. Learning experience and success.
(36:32):
Exactly right? So thinking about some of that framing and such.
And so when students come to work with with me, not everybody necessarily does community engaged research,
but it's certainly community centered research and which is about trying to affect positive change for marginalized communities.
So I have two students who are doing research around autism. That's not my area of research.
(36:57):
They've come to me because they see me as a researcher who's engaged in essentially research that's around equity, inclusion and social justice.
And there's so many parallels, right? And so helping students to see that and then working, you know,
working with them to think about how is it that you take these ideas of a critical paradigm and apply it through your research, right?
(37:21):
Some of it also is being innovative with students.
So one of the current doctoral students engaged in autism research who is does not live with autism herself.
So is not autistic. It has been working with that community for a long time, has a lot of, you know,
related knowledge from that experience, realized early in her process that,
you know, this, I don't know everything and how people may actually interpret my,
(37:46):
you know, people who take my survey interpret some questions can be an issue.
Michael, back in Quantitative Methods, we learned about cognitive interviewing.
I think I need to do this for my survey. And I'm like, thank you.
You're reading my mind.Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Right? And so but that's very much going back to the community,
even though it's not a participatory action research study, which would center the community in particular.
(38:09):
But it is very much about how do we work with. And so again, that idea of sharing power, right?
And acknowledging as a researcher, I actually need to partner with the community to be able to do effective research that's going to be, you know,
culturally responsive to the community I want to work with and, you know,
potentially affecting and make change. But also that mindset that's outcome oriented, right?
(38:32):
Like, you're mentoring is outcome oriented. But getting students to think so where where is it that you're heading?
What do you want out of this?
And I also think the emphasis on knowledge mobilization, and it's probably something I need to do more consciously with students.
They see me doing it in my work. But and some of them are involved as research assistants on projects with me,
(38:54):
so they know it and they see And that's what I mean by the outcome orientation.
Right? But but helping them understand that, okay, you know, you finish your dissertation, you might write a community report.
What can you do to affect that change. And so again going back to an example, and this was actually this would actually be
the other student who's doing autism related research that, you know,
(39:15):
she, you know, sought out other opportunities, for example,
at another university that has an Autism Center, which is really emphasizing engagement.
You know, we had a meeting today and, you know, she just finished
three weeks of co-facilitating leadership training with folks who were doing autism research.
(39:36):
And these could be medical doctors. Right?
And so to bring that social work perspective, and this is somebody who worked in the field for, you know, 15 years as a school social worker,
and her research is around autism and how school social workers can effectively respond to autistic students needs.
And she's a change agent. Exactly. Yeah. That's wonderful.
(39:56):
Yeah. It really strikes me that mentorship, you know, on university campuses often happens in
piecemeal fashion, fragmented, I would say there are some colleagues who are active mentors.
Others maybe prioritize that less. How do we get a greater emphasis on mentorship? The kind of mentorship that you're talking about, right?
(40:25):
Where you're you're really thinking about, you know, getting to know the students, what do they need?
And then creating this architecture of support and community around.
Righ?. How do we, you know, solidify that?
Great question. And I think, a couple of thoughts.
One is we have to think about people stage. So, you know, when I was an assistant professor at the University of Michigan,
(40:49):
you mentored students, you know, but it wasn't your focus was on getting tenure.
And that was clearly how they structured. Yeah, Right? And, you know, preparing you for that process and such.
So we have to be realistic and think about when is the time for people to be able to do that.
I also think the idea of students, or faculty members, new faculty members being involved on committees as a great opportunity,
(41:15):
so on students committees to see how it's done, we'll say, right?
And of course, you only get to see part of it.
But then, you know, many faculty members, they have mentors. Making sure you're talking about that component, you know, with with others.
And so how is it that they're working with students and especially, you know,
we often think about those conversations around the challenging situations with students,
(41:39):
which is important, but it's also thinking more of the developmental and that trajectory.
And how do we create that. So I don't know, sharing our success story.
So things like this may be helpful. You know, I think that's really important.
And sharing the things that you did as Associate Dean right? In
putting again that infrastructure architecture in place.
And I think that's also really important because being in that kind of leadership role,
(42:03):
I could also supplement what somebody was doing who who's somebody's supervisor.
Right? Right, right, right. I could do that and such.
And especially, you know, something happens in a supervisor's family life or career life and they're, you know, not as responsive.
You know, I can sort of jump in.
And so that's part of I think that role also is for students to understand, like I'm there as a resource, as a support,
(42:26):
even though we may not have talked in two years since you did a course with me, for example, those kinds of things.
But often through those learning events, people interacted with me regularly, even though I wasn't working with them directly and such.
You know, that's important. I also think, you know, there's more and more that we're all trying to do, and sometimes we just have to say no, right?
(42:47):
And so that could be saying no to a student who wants to work with you.
The timing is not right. Yeah.
You know, and in our faculty, we do not admit students into the PhD program who come in with a pre-established advisor.
That happens after the fact. Other faculties,
it's like you're going to come in, you're going to be my student from day one.
(43:08):
So you've already made that commit Or it's a mix, right? Some come in under peoples grants or... And things can change also.
Right. Yeah. Right. So those things so but you know, again, especially for our master's students who are doing thesis,
they may approach, you know, it's week one of the semester their first week.
And they're basically knocking on doors saying, would you work with me.
And you know, sometimes you just have to say no because of capacity.
(43:31):
So, you know, that's really important. And, you know, I think us being, you know, doing our own assessment, saying, what can I give?
And in part of that conversation, you may have some students who need more support than others.
Right? And so thinking about, okay, I could work with this student because at this time,
because, you know, they're looking for these kinds of things, which I can give.
(43:53):
Also when we think about the formal supervision models,
don't forget there is the possibility of a co-supervisor where you team, you know, where you team up and do that with someone.
And that's a great way for a new faculty member, you know, to get experience supervising students that way.
You know, but I will also say many of my colleagues who are racialized or come from other marginalized communities,
(44:19):
they're mentoring students, not necessarily on research, but they're mentoring because that's of who they are.
Yeah. And because they had other mentors from their communities.
And that's so important. Right.
You know, and it's often the work we do on the side of our desks, you know, that doesn't get acknowledged, but I do I take pride that,
for example, our faculty's tenure and promotion guidelines acknowledge that we want people to talk about that because it is really important.
(44:43):
And I've seen letters from external appraisers that have commented on that.
So it's good. So maybe there's a shift where it is being at least recognized in that way.
But ideally we want to think about how do we formally recognize it and think about it as, you know, part of someone's role?
Yeah, absolutely. And so that has those different aspects. Right.
So some of the structures and processes in place that a program or a faculty level,
(45:07):
but also the incentives that are in place for individual faculty members and you know,
yeah.And it's also not making the expectation though I will say that, you know
oh, because, you know, for myself, for example, as a gay man, that I'm going to be the head of the rainbow,
you know, group in our faculty, you know? Those kinds of things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The structure should support all of that.Again, it goes back.
(45:28):
to what's the capacity.
Yeah. So I will tell you when I started my first tenure track job, you know, I was going to a very big school of social work.
And at the time I was the only out faculty member.
And I had to say, like, I am, cannot take on that role.
Yeah. I'm just getting my feet under the desk., little alone, am I getting my feet wet.
(45:51):
Yeah, Right? As a new faculty member, you know, and I also relocated to a new country.
So there was other things, you know, of course, three years later, organically, I was sort of taking that role on, you know.
Yeah. But you had time to. And again, system of support.Yeah. And the time was right.
Yeah. Right. And the time was right. And also many of those students would come to me for support, you know, many of them I was, you know,
(46:12):
teaching in the classroom, you know, and, you know, some I was supervising and such as well.
And so, you know, but it sort of became I saw it as part of my role within at that time.
Whereas year one? No, I need to figure out this new system, and new place.
Yeah. So, Michael, you're on sabbatical now, which is lovely.
(46:33):
Sabbatical is always lovely.
So you might have a little bit of time to kind of look across the horizon and think about, okay, this is what I've accomplished,
these are the kinds of things that I've been doing, you know, and you've you've done so much on the mentoring scene.
So what's next? Right?
(46:54):
Big, big question. Also, notice how I didn't describe that one as a good one because it's a big one.
Right? It is a big one. I will say I'm in a bit of a catch up mode in that, you know, being in this administrative role
for four years, And so much mentoring service and just like during the really,
(47:16):
you know, challenging time in terms of the pandemic and such, you know,
and the return to campus and what that means and such, you know, anyway, all of those things.
And, so I'm really trying to sort of catch up on my publications.
But what's interesting, Debora, is that I also have to do a little bit of the kind of check that I would do with a student,
which is reminding myself of what my team has done around knowledge mobilization.
(47:40):
And in fact, the conversation I have this morning with one of my mentors from my doctoral program.
you know, I said, you know, like, I'm considering going after this grant,
and I'm not sure if I'm going to be seen as competitive because we haven't done the traditional academic outputs.
And I emphasize that we're traditional. And he said, well, what do you mean by traditional?
(48:00):
What's the nontraditional? And I told him about, you know, this major knowledge mobilization series that we ran, how, you know,
we've been doing all of this outreach, these a webinar series that we created, you know, all of these things.
And he's like, so, Michael, why do you think those are not academic outputs.
Right?Yeah. Ding. And you're like, Oh. And I said, well, I know, I know, I have to remind myself.
(48:23):
And this the exact kind of conversation I would sort of reality check I would have with somebody, you know?
But I still, we have a lot of data that we're working on with publications and such, you know, and trying to contribute to that.
I feel like we've really done a lot to contribute to the policy and practice side of things.
Now it's contributing to the research and then and the sort of, you know, the science of campus climate.
(48:48):
So it's more modeling of you as a change agent. Right?Exactly.
You know, I think also, you know, when I talk about that and just even that focus,
you know, with some of my students, you know, I say you can't do everything.
So, you know, I had to make some decisions along the way. And this is like reality will say, you know? So certainly around the research side,
(49:09):
also pursuing some new grants, you know, I am thinking about what my next step is in terms of teaching.
I don't know, probably teaching again in the master's program, which I haven't done in a few years.
So going into that and, you know, it's sort of a bit of a fresh start, I think, you know,
with the changes to our doctoral program also, you know, how would I deliver some of these courses virtually completely virtually.
(49:33):
And so, you know, and so thinking about some of that and, you know, I recently had a conversation with a,
staff member who works in our field office who actually took an MSW research course with me.
And we were talking about that, and I said,
I think I would really flip the classroom and I would make the classroom experience really about the application,
(49:55):
because what I'm seeing is that people are reading about things,
but when it comes to the actual application and getting feedback, it's sometimes it's too late.
So it actually needs to happen throughout the class, you know, throughout the, the semester and that kind of thing.
And those experiences.Modes of delivery. This is our new challenge, right?
In 2025 is as we really think about our programs and our courses and how we make them accessible.
(50:22):
Right? For all students.And it's also maintaining the principles and the standards.
Yeah. Absolutely, its a very different framing. Its very different. Teaching looks different.
It does, it does.
And also what students are able to give you know? And I will say, you know, when I think about, you know,
designing a course, I tend to be on the lean naturally lean towards more is better, but it's not right.
(50:48):
So prioritizing reading those kinds of things, but also ensuring there's a sense of that collective accountability.
So, you know, one of the things that that I do, especially teaching in person,
is collaboratively we come up with our learning principles or our classroom norms, whatever you want to talk about.
And, you know, but I bring students through a reflexive process around that where they're answering actually a sheet that they give me,
(51:11):
which is called the student information sheet. So you get to learn a little bit about them.
But there are questions about like, you know, what were some of the positive experiences for you, teach you as a student?
What were some of the negative experiences? What was the role of the instructor in that?
What was the role of your of your colleagues? What was the role of you in that?
Yeah.So often people will say, well, I didn't come to class prepared.
(51:33):
There's something when you as a group talk about that. Absolutely.
And use you, you know, able to you're able to say, well, look, when designing this course I identified the two critical readings.
Well you're activating metacognition there, right? Because then they're reflecting back on their own learning.
Okay. Well actually how do I learn?And but there's also a sense of communal accountable.
So when we develop those principles, you know, when we do midterm check in midterm evaluation, guess what?
(51:58):
We evaluate how well we as a group living up to that.
How well are you as a student. And that moment is like, oh yeah, I actually need to do a little bit better.
Right. And such. And, you know, and there's a sense of excitement that can happen because it's a communal, collective effort, you know, and such.
So I think trying to do more of that and you know, thinking about, again, being responsive to students,
(52:24):
but also knowing these are the outcomes we need to realize, and especially if folks are going to become practitioners.
The competencies that they need to hold are so critically important.
And, you know, ethically, that's what we have to prepare students for, right?
And so it's, you know, holding people to those standards. Same thing
(52:44):
if someone's going to be a researcher, you know, and even if they decide they're not, they don't want to be a faculty member if they're going to do,
you know, private consulting work, you know, they need to be able to do strong work.
And so being able to give that, set those expectations, demonstrate that in the teaching that we do.
And so by the examples that we bring in and such, you know, and even bringing in maybe, you know,
(53:06):
some of our own work which we now say this is not that great, you know, demonstrating that.
But then also, you know, in their work giving that feedback.
And so to me that's also really important mentoring, but also teaching in general is, you know, the feedback that students receive,
really has to be meaningful and push people to, you know, this is how you get to that next level, if that's needed,
(53:32):
for example. Obviously recognizing, you know, accomplishments and strengths.
But there's also where are those rooms from that room for improvement along the way?
Well, Michael, I feel so inspired by this conversation, both in terms of where mentoring fits in my own teaching practice,
but also thinking of a million things we could be doing at Laurier to build that architecture for mentoring.
(53:53):
So thank you so much for joining me here today. Thank you. Was a pleasure.
My thanks to Michael Woodford for joining me today, and I hope you will join me for more conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
[Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.]Welcome to Laurier's Teaching Excellence Conversation series.
I'm Deborah VanNijnatten and academic director of Teaching Excellence and Innovation at Wilfrid Laurier University.
And today, I'm with Michael Woodford from the Faculty of Social Work, who received the 2024 Faculty Mentoring Award.
With a passionate commitment to social justice, equity, and advancing LGBTQ inclusion,
(00:23):
Michael has significantly impacted the academic and personal development of his students through a mentoring philosophy grounded in empowerment,
collaboration, and reflexivity. And throughout his career at Laurier,
he's been dedicated to fostering inclusive and supporting learning environments and guiding students to excel as emerging scholars and practitioners.
(00:44):
Michael's transformative approach to mentorship and teaching has inspired students and colleagues alike,
making him an outstanding recipient of the Faculty Mentoring Award, and I'm excited to talk to him today.
(01:16):
So Michael, thank you so much for joining me here today.
And congratulations on being the Faculty Mentoring Award recipient.
Thank you so much. And it's such an honor. Mentoring is something you know.
It strikes me that we as faculty, we do throughout our careers, we do in different ways,
but we don't always reflect on mentorship like we do on teaching and other aspects of our teaching practice.
(01:44):
So I would really like to start today with what drives your mentorship in your teaching.
So, were there particular mentors that framed and helped you have the perspective that you do on mentoring today?
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think coming from social work, things are somewhat unique. When I think about my own experiences,
(02:07):
even as an undergraduate social work student, key to social work education is field learning.
So the field practicum we often call it. It's sometimes in the literature referred to as the signature pedagogy.
So even in my undergrad, I had somebody who was supervising me in, applying what I was learning Actively.
(02:28):
Absolutely. And even though we called them a field supervisor, often, they were much more than that.
And really a mentor. And I think back to, you know, both of my undergrad degree and master's are in social work,
as is my PhD, but especially in the undergrad and the master's degree, those field practicums.
And I think back to some of those individuals. My first field supervisor happened to be a faculty member,
(02:52):
and because I was in an agency where there wasn't a social worker who could take on that role.
And so I would say in hindsight, I'd say that was really fortunate because I learned so much from from her.
And it wasn't just about the applications of skill and knowledge and values.
It was also who you are as a social worker.
(03:12):
So really who you are as an individual and thinking about how you bring your whole self right? And sometimes difficult conversations in that field
supervision, where she's pushing me around things and there were certain things that as a social worker, I felt very natural.
Or as a social work student, very natural for me to do. Other things were really on my learning edge and she would push me around those things.
(03:35):
So learning by that immersion was so important. And then, you know, similarly in my master's field placement,
but also having some great faculty, I had the opportunity, though, as part of my master's degree
to do a program called the Graduate Teaching Program,
which was an initiative of the School of Grad Studies at Memorial, I just got to ask, where was this?
(03:57):
Where I did both my undergrad and my masters, and that was an opportunity to participate in sort of a 3 or 4 day boot camp in teaching.
So teaching theory and such. But most critical to that experience was the opportunity to actually teach in your discipline.
The program itself actually asked you or expected you to do one lecture in the fall term and another lecture in the winter term.
(04:20):
So this is unusual. This is at an earlier stage. Like usually graduate students get this in their PhD and often towards the end of the PhD.
Right? So this is quite unique. Because in fact, if you look at my teaching history,
I started to teach as a part time faculty member, you know, like two years after my master's degree.
Yeah. Wow. Right. Yeah.But so central to that actual exposure of teaching was that you had a mentor in your field who was called a mentor,
(04:48):
who was a very dear friend of mine who is still teaching at Memorial.
And because of the courses she was teaching, I said, well, rather than just coming to do a lecture,
I know what you do in those classes because I took one of those courses with you.
I'm going to commit to being there every week.
And so what evolved from, I'm going to say, a very structured co-teaching model, evolved into something that was very collaborative,
(05:14):
very much based on empowerment, the sharing of power.
Here she was, you know, a tenured faculty member sharing power with me, a graduate student teaching undergraduate students.
So demonstrating that sort of responsible sharing of power, the mutual trust, the ongoing communication, you know, was so critical.Collaborative classroom.
(05:35):
And that for me, thinking about teaching in general and also mentoring students in their research was so fundamental.
And then when I think about moving on to doing my master's thesis, the person who was my advisor also,
just like one of the things that I really appreciated was that she wasn't just interested in my my research,
(05:56):
she was interested in me as a person. What I wanted to do, what I wanted to achieve through that,
but also as I was making career decisions and things like that.
So there was more than just, you know, the focus on that.
So and then when I look at my PhD experiences, you know, I had a really excellent supervisor who was very strong mentor to me,
(06:17):
including thinking about moving into academia and such.
But I also worked with other faculty members through their research.
And in fact, this morning I met with one of those people.
And part of that conversation was, I need some mentoring advice on this, and I'm almost 20 years doing this.
Yeah Right? So it's pretty significant, you know, and so those relationships were really important.
(06:39):
And thinking about also you can hear from that conversation I had more than one mentor.
Really, really pivotal and important. Yeah. Helping you really kind of form your own philosophy of mentorship collaborative exploring, empowering and longterm.
And as a student, the fact that you go to different people for different things.
And we often think about especially if someone's doing a thesis or doing an independent studies course,
(07:02):
Well, we're not an independent studies course, but doing an MRP,or they're doing, a dissertation that they have their supervisor.
Yeah, that supervisor is a main contact. And it means support a main mentor.
But there are other individuals, some of whom may not even be on your committee, that you seek out support for, for different things.
Yeah.
And so that's why I think it's really important for students, but also faculty when we're mentoring students to think about who are the other people.
(07:30):
And sometimes as a mentor, part of my job is to facilitate a connection with you.
Yeah. You know, with somebody else, with another faculty member who, you know,
has experience in that methodology or has experience in the content that that
students about to teach for their first time teaching as a CTF colleague,
for example. Yeah, I often think that it, you know, and a little play on the usual phrase, it takes a village to create an academic. Yeah.
(07:57):
It really does. Right? This lovely network of people that are that accompany, we'll call them a young researcher, right on a on their journey.
Yeah, absolutely. And when I think about other pivotal forces,And that's a really nice way to look at it.
I have to say, like my family, my parents, both of whom, you know, highly of our valued education,
never obtained post-secondary education, wasn't available to them.
(08:21):
I'm sure they're so thrilled with you. But, you know, like the the dedication certainly networking,
to dedication to hard work, but also the dedication to asking critical questions.
Yeah. Yeah.And sometimes pushing back on things. When something doesn't make sense,
like, why are we doing it?
Why is this, so on and so forth, you know, and certainly, and especially for my, for my dad, I would say the commitment to helping others.
(08:47):
And so, you know, maybe that's partially why I went into social work as a career.
But I think continuing that as an academic and, you know,
students are one of the primary groups that I work with and the communities that I work with in my research.
And so it's more than just giving the numbers or giving the research reports or, you know, just giving feedback.
It's really, you know, meeting people where they are and figuring out a plan together to move to where they need to be or want to be, you know,
(09:14):
Well, let's let's follow up on that, because you've got a real focus throughout your career on social justice and empowerment, as we talked about.
Right? So, you know, how do you integrate these principles into your interactions with your students?
Well, when I think about, again, that sort of idea of starting where the person is and, you know,
lwhen somebody comes to me says, hey, I'm Michael, I'm thinking about doing a master's thesis.
(09:37):
You know, that conversation is a little bit of an assessment interview, in a way, because I want to get a sense, what's your motivation?
Why do you want to do this? You know, what is that about?
What's your preparedness? What's going to happen when challenges happen?
Yeah. Right? And some of that is like, so especially if somebody has just relocated to to the region for school,
(09:57):
how are they trying to build a community with others?
Because there's going to be points where you're going to feel like, I want to give up.And you need your community. That's right.
Right? You know, and so, you know, thinking about how do I actually build relationships with other people who are doing a thesis, for example?
So I'm not just alone. And, you know, and I think there's challenges to that today, especially post-pandemic.
(10:19):
And, you know, people. Yeah, time is precious. There's so many other things happening in people's lives.
So there are challenges. I'm trying to be realistic about that.
I often also share my own journey, which, you know, is not sort of a traditional kind of journey academically.
You know, I sort of shopped around at my undergrad, you know, I never thought I was going to be an academic, even after doing a master's thesis.
(10:41):
I was like, no, I never thought that, you know, I share how.I didn't either.
No?No, no, I didn't expect it. There's something that happens.
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Becuase the light bulb comes on in your (GASP). Yeah.
And so because and for me that part of that academic journey was I had been teaching at Memorial I, you know, part time.
I enjoyed it a lot really got, you know, some wonderful feedback.
(11:04):
You know, I was effective at what I was doing. I was like, oh, maybe I would like to do this.
And to be honest, I applied to do a PhD because I thought I wanted to,
my passion was teaching. Yeah. It was in my PhD program that my passion for research really developed.
Right? And so when I think about working with our doctoral students, especially in our field,
(11:25):
where doctoral students are often returning to school after ten years,
15 years of practice, now, my gap wasn't as big as that,
but helping them understand that when I came in, to do my my PhD, I had to figure out exactly what was my focus.
I had a general idea, you know, and I think about my colleagues around, you know,
(11:48):
the seminar table and many people, you know, ended up going in completely different directions and such.
So some of that is like normalizing how that exploration is just comment.
Right? When I also think about the past four years as the associate dean for our PhD program,
actually building in processes within courses to actually enable that and talk about that.
(12:13):
Inviting other faculty to come in to talk about their own journeys academically, because it's not necessarily a clear,
neat path from A, B and C, and this C is the research question I want to answer.
I don't know that you're going to figure that out, right? Yeah. And it's a hard process.
Yeah. Students get frustrated along the way. But you've created I would say a sort of a landscape for students in your programs.
(12:39):
It's not only in courses because you've also got these things happening outside of courses that students can go to,
guest speakers and special workshops and all of these places to sort of help them on that journey towards, okay, this is what I want to do, right?
And also, you know, if students are deciding to be researchers or practitioners or academics, you know,
(13:03):
traditional academics kind of thing, you know, it's not just the research, it's not just the theory,
it's not just that. It's also the interpersonal.
Yeah. Who am I? Right. And that reflexivity and how you relate to others.
And so, you know, just as you mentioned building in some of those other learning opportunities.
(13:25):
And again, it's starting where. So this is who this person is.
This is their experiences. This is where they want to go. So this is these are the things we need to put in place.
And not all of it falls to the mentor and hopefully our program,
so for example ASPIRE is a great initiative.Yes. Yep.
Right? So building on that and sometimes part of our mentorship is building in a plan with a student to say,
(13:46):
so what are the ASPIRE programing that you're going to take part in this this semester?
What are the things you can do outside to complement, help you on your journey. Yes, because
it's not all within the faculty or departments purview to be able to do all of these things.
And so there's a great community of resources that can support students and such.
You know? I think also so thinking about my research, which is around to 2SLGBTQ students and their experiences and communities in general,
(14:15):
you know, a number of Queer and Trans students are drawn to me and the work that we do.
And of course, that's really important.
And, you know, I often, you know, in some of those conversations, not necessarily initially, but I like hear about their
experiences and, you know, often their negative, their places of, you know, this wasn't a safe space for me.
(14:36):
Yeah. An opportunity for me This wasn't, you know And especially,
yeah, and especially undergrad students. But also I hear it from grad students, you know.
And so thinking about how is it that we create those spaces where people can be who they are and also be spaces where,
you know, their strengths can come out. DEBORA (14:50):
And develop. MICHEAL
And so sometimes it's like highlighting the resilience and the resistance that they might have demonstrated, you know,
in the fact, you know, many years ago when I was working in the States, a colleague asked me, why is it that I focus
on university students and not thinking about high school students.
And I said, well, I think we need to pay attention to the people who survived high school.
(15:12):
And it's not easy necessarily.That's right. At the university level. You know,
much of my my research has really delved into the more subtle forms of discrimination, microaggressions and such.
And, you know, this was a university that was known as very, very progressive and liberal, you know,
but the students who were coming to meet with me, we're talking about, and they weren't using the term microaggressions,
(15:33):
but they were talking about microaggressions happening in schools of social workers like. I bet you, you know,
things and even, you know, more negative things and more blatant things are happening in other contexts.
And we need to understand that. And so again, though, in working with students, I often share my own journey.
And, you know, just even that talking about microaggressions prompted me to say,
(15:55):
like I often say to doctoral students especially, I now do things that I never thought I would do when I was a doctoral student.
And then what do you mean by that? I said, so, you know, A) my topic was very different from my dissertation.
It was completely qualitative. Now I do things such as developing and testing microaggressions, scales completely quantitative, but I also do them.
(16:17):
And you teach the quantitative methods course. But I also do it in a way that's collaborative.
So I'll give you an example. When we were developing a Trans microaggression scale,
there's a process within that testing of a scale quantitatively where you have to make some judgment calls.
as the researcher. I don't live this world as a Trans person,
(16:37):
so making decisions about which items in the scale really have more relevance shouldn't come from me.
Yeah. So we did essentially a focus group process with Trans colleagues and scholars and students to engage in that.
And so create.And create the scale And create the scale and doing it in a collaborative kind of way.
(16:58):
And actually, I want to go back to your earlier question about other people who've inspired me as,
as a mentor. Makes you think about somebody else.
Well, it does, and so I think about especially some of the people who I work with in my research students,
but also other faculty members and especially Trans colleagues who have really,
you know, been so supportive, but also have taught me so much in that process.
(17:21):
And, you know, in order to do that, you have to go in and say, I don't know everything, and I need to learn.
That's my job. That's my responsibility, you know?
And so, you know, going back to that example of the person who is my teaching mentor, I have to be willing to share power in a way and be vulnerable,
you know, and be able to say, yeah, like, you know, I live this world is a cis person.
(17:43):
I'm doing work, and important work with Trans people.
I need to have, you know, my own,
I need to do my own work. And that's really important when I think about that. Learning along the way. Yeah, learning along the way.
So one of the other unique aspects of mentoring in social work is that you have
students coming from non-traditional pathways and in many other faculties,
(18:07):
it's a little bit more conventional going through your undergrad and then going to graduate work.
But you have, I'm assuming, professionals coming back, people with different kinds of life experiences.
So that makes the mentoring sort of journey, and the creation of a network of support also quite different.
Yeah, absolutely. And as you were asking the question, I obviously think about our doctoral students, but we also have master's students.
(18:32):
At that level as well. And especially because of our online MSW program, which reaches people, you know,
throughout the country, we're reaching people who've been in practice for ten years.
We've been reaching people who, you know, who've been who are in leadership positions,
who are executive directors, And they're coming back. To do a master's degree.
Yeah, yeah. Right? And they're coming back for that advanced training.
(18:54):
And, you know, which is so important.
And then when we think about our PhD students and we really value that practice experience because it informs the research that doctoral students do,
it also informs the teaching that they may do in their future.
And so, you know, we we look at that and, you know, I think one point last year,
we did the math and I think it was something like 15 years since on average, since people have done their master's degree.
(19:20):
And I once had a student who was coming into our program. On average, sorry, I'm just I'm just absorbing that.
Yeah. YeahThat is a very different profile. I could be wrong on that.
I should remember the number better. In any case. Its ten years plus for sure.
There was a doctoral student a few years ago who was accepted into our program.
And, you know, I was doing a meeting in a meeting with them and they asked, I said, Michael, I think we're probably around the same age.
(19:44):
You know, what's changed the most since I was a student?
And the first thing that came to mind, Debora, was the card catalog said it doesn't exist anymore.
Right. It doesn't exist anymore. You can be inundated with information so easily because it's so accessible.
So A) That's not going to be an efficient use of your time.
(20:06):
So you need to know how to use search that information.Yeah. How do you find what's what's useful.
And second.What's important. And what's also credible.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes indeed, that's right. Yeah. Right. Whats riggorus. And so when we think about for example, you referenced the quant course that I teach.
So it's a quantitative research methods course. And then data analysis. And then data analysis is a separate course.
(20:27):
But we emphasize actually critical appraisal of quantitative research.
Because just because it's published doesn't mean it's good research. Absolutely right.
And so that kind of critical thinking applied to research is so important.
And so, you know, like again, thinking where is this person?
And especially, you know, people have other things happening in their lives.
(20:50):
How do we help them balance that? And sometimes, you know, especially in students I work with, one on one, I might,
and also people who I've worked with just generally in the doctoral program,
I've had to have hard conversations and say, like, you know, you've got a lot going on.
You're not prioritizing your work right now in terms of your schoolwork.
You know what's happening. Can I, what can we do? Sometimes it's a student may take a leave.
(21:14):
Yeah. A student may, you know, go to part time status, for example, those kinds of things,
or connecting them with some other supports or a learning opportunity,
you know, or and, you know, in some situations it's sort of a short lived kind of experience.
It's like, okay, well, we can keep going for another month and we'll check in and see how it goes in that way.
So that's really important.
Also, one of the things we pride ourselves on within social work and other disciplines, of course, is the diversity of our students.
(21:39):
So, you know, you know, inclusion, equity, reflexivity are critical to what we're trying to do.
And so in the doctoral program, for example, students thinking about their own social positionality, what those mean in the world.
What they mean for their research, and also how it means how they interact with their colleagues in that shared space of learning and such.
(22:01):
So, of course, as faculty, you know, we're role modeling that.
And so I talk about so that agency where I did my first field placement was Newfoundland and Labrador is only immigrant serving agency.
It's still Newfoundland and Labradors only primary immigrant settlement agency.
I was there, you know, first social worker. And it was an agency where I had to say before the term reflexivity was being used,
(22:26):
I had to think about it. I had to start thinking about what does it mean to be a Canadian citizen, to be white, to be, you know,
privileged in many ways to work with people who are, you know, immigrants or refugee claimants to the country.
Many of us in teaching talk about some of those experiences that come from the field.
(22:46):
Maybe if I hadn't worked in the field, I wouldn't have that experience.
But, you know, that's really, you know, that sort of, you know, appropriate sharing,
role modeling is really important as well. But, you know, one thing that is just so outstanding in your dossier is that the mentorship
you offer students just goes across the full, you know, range of educational levels, right?
(23:12):
Undergraduate students, right through PhDs and then off into their careers.
And, you know, I was going to ask, you know, how does your approach differ?
You know, depending on whether a student is an undergraduate thesis student, a master's student, somebody coming in,
a senior PhD student, a beginner PhD student, somebody who's already out in their career.
(23:34):
But I think you've given us the answer, which is you're starting with getting to know who that human being is.
And then from there thinking about how do I help them on their journey, how do I create the supportive network around them?
Yes, absolutely. So again, starting where they are. But it's also collaboratively developing that plan.
(23:54):
So what is it we need. And so you know we often think about what are their strengths.
You know. So what do they feel comfortable with. Where are their learning edges. You know, what are some of those remedial things,
some of those additional things, you know.
So an example, you know, I have two students who are doing major surveys as part of their dissertation work, you know.
(24:15):
Yeah. So even though.Survey research and design. Right.
But even even though they've done statistics, you know, as part of their, training, it's like, so as you're getting ready, what can we do?
What kind of initiative can you be part of? You know. Yeah. Now, sometimes also you know, I'm actually working with somebody one on one.
We're sharing our screens, you know, so I'll go back to when I was teaching at the University of Michigan,
(24:38):
a student who did a field placement with me, which was a research focus field placement.
We were working on an analysis together. So we're sitting at my desk, we're running it, and she says, I now get statistics.
I now understand it. And so sometimes just.Watching it and doing it. And we're talking about it and say, okay, well let's, let's do this.
Oh yeah. Okay. This is great. Yes. Okay. No, we need to go in a different direction.
(25:01):
And so of course explaining. All of those decisions along the way, you know.
You know, I'm happy to say that person is now an assistant professor at a school in the US.
And, you know, like she does say to me that that work really drove her passion for research.
Right? And so when I think about, you know,
not every doctoral student is going to go on and become a faculty member or continue to do research or a master's students.
(25:26):
But if you can, you know, brighten that flame, start to get that passion going,
that's great. But again, what do we need to do to get there?
And I referenced earlier, the idea is, you know, sometimes there's difficult conversations that need to happen.
And so, you know, it's like, okay, we need to reconfigure this plan.
So I often do think about like work planning essentially.
(25:47):
You know, how do we, add those regular check ins. Right. And we see how are we doing.
You know. And you know, in today's world especially, you know, I would say, you know,
when somebody is at a phase of their research where they're collecting data,
I don't want to leave them out on their own, you know, just, you know, send me, you know, a weekly or biweekly update and we agree to that.
So there's a bit of a contracting that happens. Right.
(26:10):
And you know, if I don't hear from someone, I give them a couple of days and then I'm like, yes, Then you're like hey whats up?
Because, you know, there could be something that just like is completely beyond their control.
And especially, you know, students today, some of our students. Oh they're reluctant to reach out.
Exactly. There's an embarrassment. Right. Again.I should be hitting this out of the park.
And I'm not. Exactly. And then but, you know, us sharing those moments when I didn't hit it out of the park, you know, and, yeah,
(26:37):
that could have been last week because the faculty member. And struggled in year three or whatever. Ya, you know,
so like helping again I think to normalize that, you know, and you know but of course, you know, there are also times when,
you know, we got to say to people, you actually need to do more like, this is not meeting the expectations.
Again, that's another one of those hard conversations. But often you have that and explore
(27:01):
how do we help you get there. Right? Is is really pivotally important and effective I think in my experience.
You know often on our journey, most academics go through periods of time in their careers where, you know,
pre-tenure you're working on your research profile and you're getting your teaching organized.
And then after tenure, you know, you can be a little bit more innovative, trying new things.
(27:23):
But there comes a time at which most of us decide, are we going to contribute on the admin side or not?
Am I going to put myself forward for an administrative position?
I have to say that in your dossier, the Associate Dean of the PhD program,
it's so perfect because you were doing all of these things in terms of mentoring.
(27:48):
And then being Associate Dean seems to have given you, you know, infrastructure and tools just to ramp up what you were already doing,
right, things that you were already practicing, and then build them sort of more uniformly through the program.
Yeah, yeah. And I have to say that was It's a great, match. It was it was a great match, I have to say.
And it was an opportunity that I embraced.
(28:12):
I will say it wasn't easy because, even before my term officially started, the pandemic started.
Oh my goodness. Right. And so thinking about that isolation that students were. How do I create these things.
And how do I create that. Networks and supports. You know, but now it's like okay,
those like the opportunity to do things virtually is actually a great tool.
(28:35):
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Accessibility is wonderful. You know.
And you know a benefit we have is doctoral programs are small, you know, so classes are small you know.
But it was more than just oh how do we flip and teach online for the remaining
2 or 3 weeks of this semester and prepare for this for the spring semester?
You know, it was more than that. It was also thinking about how is it that we continue to try to have that community.
(29:00):
And so through.The spaces in between the courses, how do we fill them in and then create a webbing?
Exactly. And so what we call learning events was our mechanism to do that.
And those were, you know, things related to research, things related to, you know, going on the academic job market.
Scholarship, grant applications. Exactly.
And part of it was also, we had mechanisms to hear from students around what their needs were.
(29:25):
And so that was really important. And, you know, I also, you know, would have regular office hours, sort of dropping hours.
You know, I always added the caveat, let me know if you're coming or not, because I'm only going to hang out in the zoom room for 15 minutes.
Right. Kind of thing, you know, because I would book an hour, you know, but,
you know, like, adding that was really important.
(29:47):
And sure, some months I didn't see anybody, but it was also ensuring I always tell students I'm accessible,
like feel free to, in my Associate Dean role, reach out to me, you know, if you are having a struggle because I think,
moving into that role got me to see the big picture.
(30:08):
And I had been aware of the big picture of sort of what doctoral students were going through,
what the experiences were, where some of the gaps were in what we were doing, you know,
and, you know, some of those things we were able to close through these learning events and such.
Also how we connected our courses, like particular courses together.
And so making things a little bit more, aligned for students.
(30:33):
I'll use the word aligned, was really important.
And, you know, I was really fortunate to work with a great group of colleagues from staff and faculty who are working with our students and such.
And, you know, it was yeah, you know, it was a great experience.
Yeah. I have to say, so that, you know, it was four years in that role.
You know, one of the things that, you know, we as a faculty have decided is we've transformed our PhD program into a virtual one.
(30:56):
So because of the pandemic, it led us to realize in the spirit of accessibility, and we have students, graduates from our master's program,
for example, who would be great candidates for a PhD program, but they can't afford to leave their their community and relocate here for coursework.
And so but again, like if you were to look at that new program, it includes things like these virtual learning events,
(31:25):
you know, the series, we've actually integrated some of those things into a doctoral seminar, which is built into a course then.
But there are other key components. So if you think about the idea of community,
and I think about my own experience, you know, and how, you know,
people who are some of the folks who I did my PhD work with are such good friends because we had that community,
(31:47):
right? But one of the things we built into that new offering of the PhD program is that the dissertation
stage students will participate in a doctoral research seminar once a month until they finish,
because they're going to be in community with each other.
It'll also be run sort of like a professional development where you know it's going to be particular topics.
Again, you know, they'll come from the students and but it's also a way for them to keep in community
(32:13):
and a little bit of that accountability beyond their supervisor or beyond their
committee. Because, you know, as we both we call the writing of that dissertation was pretty isolating.
Yeah, it is right.
It is a not that type of approach, really kind of provides a spine, right, for for everything else that you're aligning around that.
Another thing that I think is, is really demonstrated in your mentoring practice is that you're not just mentoring students
(32:38):
at all phases in service professionals that come back right in unique circumstances,
focusing on who they are. It's also clear that you are focused on supporting them to be or preparing them to be change agents.
That's something different and very important.
(33:01):
And it strikes me as you're talking about, you know, students coming from at, you know,
different phases in their career, coming back to a PhD. They may already be change agents.
They may be leaders, they may want to they may want to but feel like they don't have the capacity to do that.
But that's a really important aspect of mentoring, right.
(33:22):
You can change things. Right? So how do you prepare them to do that?
So great question. And as you ask it, it causes me to think back to first of all when we think about social work we think about,
you know, clinical direct practice with individuals, which was really my emphasis at the undergrad level.
But I was also doing what we call macro work. My master's is actually in social policy administration.
(33:48):
But you bring those interpersonal skills in that context. So I think my sort of flame for leadership started at that point.
But I was working in that settlement agency where I was doing many things.
My job title was actually Social Worker and Program Coordinator.
I'm developing grants. I'm working with our service users to do needs assessments, to inform programing all of those kinds of things.
(34:15):
So I had these great opportunities to sort of make positive change,
I'm going to say, for, especially for our service users, but also for the community in general.
We tried some new initiatives. And I again, going back to working with students, I talk about some of that,
some of my experiences in practice and how I'm pushing the boundaries of social work.
(34:36):
Yeah. So even, you know, with my BSW degree in hand, which was very clinical, but also included some of the macro
training and such that I talk about that and people go, oh yeah, oh yeah.
Or I talk about when I worked with the provincial government of Newfoundland and how I would use sort of assess a
(34:58):
group and talk about how I needed to make enter a point into the conversation,
a way that people could hear it and not be defenders, not be defensive about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and such. And so thinking about some of those things. What's the crack that you leverage open. Exactly.
I always think about that. Where is that little window of opportunity. Absolutely right.
I do that my policy work.Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so thinking about some of those things and sharing some of those examples.
(35:24):
Right? And then of course students working with me, especially in research courses,
it's like, you know, how is it that this research is going to make change?
Yeah. So some of that is actually about how is the research topic being generated.
What is that about.
And so using sort of, you know, a critical paradigm to think about how is it that we use research to document systems of oppression
(35:47):
and how they manifest in people's lives? So again, I'll use my research as an example.
So, you know, I look at microaggressions on university and college campuses as one part of the focus.
I don't just look at that. I look at that around how does it affect students mental health?
How does it affect their academic performance, their persistence to degree?
(36:09):
I don't just do that for research wise.
I do that because strategically, administrators and policymakers are interested in those things. And they need to know. Right?
Those are really critical things. Yeah. Right?
And so not saying that administrators wouldn't be interested in microaggressions or discrimination alone,
but to actually show how that affects students. Learning experience and success.
(36:32):
Exactly right? So thinking about some of that framing and such.
And so when students come to work with with me, not everybody necessarily does community engaged research,
but it's certainly community centered research and which is about trying to affect positive change for marginalized communities.
So I have two students who are doing research around autism. That's not my area of research.
(36:57):
They've come to me because they see me as a researcher who's engaged in essentially research that's around equity, inclusion and social justice.
And there's so many parallels, right? And so helping students to see that and then working, you know,
working with them to think about how is it that you take these ideas of a critical paradigm and apply it through your research, right?
(37:21):
Some of it also is being innovative with students.
So one of the current doctoral students engaged in autism research who is does not live with autism herself.
So is not autistic. It has been working with that community for a long time, has a lot of, you know,
related knowledge from that experience, realized early in her process that,
you know, this, I don't know everything and how people may actually interpret my,
(37:46):
you know, people who take my survey interpret some questions can be an issue.
Michael, back in Quantitative Methods, we learned about cognitive interviewing.
I think I need to do this for my survey. And I'm like, thank you.
You're reading my mind.Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Right? And so but that's very much going back to the community,
even though it's not a participatory action research study, which would center the community in particular.
(38:09):
But it is very much about how do we work with. And so again, that idea of sharing power, right?
And acknowledging as a researcher, I actually need to partner with the community to be able to do effective research that's going to be, you know,
culturally responsive to the community I want to work with and, you know,
potentially affecting and make change. But also that mindset that's outcome oriented, right?
(38:32):
Like, you're mentoring is outcome oriented. But getting students to think so where where is it that you're heading?
What do you want out of this?
And I also think the emphasis on knowledge mobilization, and it's probably something I need to do more consciously with students.
They see me doing it in my work. But and some of them are involved as research assistants on projects with me,
(38:54):
so they know it and they see And that's what I mean by the outcome orientation.
Right? But but helping them understand that, okay, you know, you finish your dissertation, you might write a community report.
What can you do to affect that change. And so again going back to an example, and this was actually this would actually be
the other student who's doing autism related research that, you know,
(39:15):
she, you know, sought out other opportunities, for example,
at another university that has an Autism Center, which is really emphasizing engagement.
You know, we had a meeting today and, you know, she just finished
three weeks of co-facilitating leadership training with folks who were doing autism research.
(39:36):
And these could be medical doctors. Right?
And so to bring that social work perspective, and this is somebody who worked in the field for, you know, 15 years as a school social worker,
and her research is around autism and how school social workers can effectively respond to autistic students needs.
And she's a change agent. Exactly. Yeah. That's wonderful.
(39:56):
Yeah. It really strikes me that mentorship, you know, on university campuses often happens in
piecemeal fashion, fragmented, I would say there are some colleagues who are active mentors.
Others maybe prioritize that less. How do we get a greater emphasis on mentorship? The kind of mentorship that you're talking about, right?
(40:25):
Where you're you're really thinking about, you know, getting to know the students, what do they need?
And then creating this architecture of support and community around.
Righ?. How do we, you know, solidify that?
Great question. And I think, a couple of thoughts.
One is we have to think about people stage. So, you know, when I was an assistant professor at the University of Michigan,
(40:49):
you mentored students, you know, but it wasn't your focus was on getting tenure.
And that was clearly how they structured. Yeah, Right? And, you know, preparing you for that process and such.
So we have to be realistic and think about when is the time for people to be able to do that.
I also think the idea of students, or faculty members, new faculty members being involved on committees as a great opportunity,
(41:15):
so on students committees to see how it's done, we'll say, right?
And of course, you only get to see part of it.
But then, you know, many faculty members, they have mentors. Making sure you're talking about that component, you know, with with others.
And so how is it that they're working with students and especially, you know,
we often think about those conversations around the challenging situations with students,
(41:39):
which is important, but it's also thinking more of the developmental and that trajectory.
And how do we create that. So I don't know, sharing our success story.
So things like this may be helpful. You know, I think that's really important.
And sharing the things that you did as Associate Dean right? In
putting again that infrastructure architecture in place.
And I think that's also really important because being in that kind of leadership role,
(42:03):
I could also supplement what somebody was doing who who's somebody's supervisor.
Right? Right, right, right. I could do that and such.
And especially, you know, something happens in a supervisor's family life or career life and they're, you know, not as responsive.
You know, I can sort of jump in.
And so that's part of I think that role also is for students to understand, like I'm there as a resource, as a support,
(42:26):
even though we may not have talked in two years since you did a course with me, for example, those kinds of things.
But often through those learning events, people interacted with me regularly, even though I wasn't working with them directly and such.
You know, that's important. I also think, you know, there's more and more that we're all trying to do, and sometimes we just have to say no, right?
(42:47):
And so that could be saying no to a student who wants to work with you.
The timing is not right. Yeah.
You know, and in our faculty, we do not admit students into the PhD program who come in with a pre-established advisor.
That happens after the fact. Other faculties,
it's like you're going to come in, you're going to be my student from day one.
(43:08):
So you've already made that commit Or it's a mix, right? Some come in under peoples grants or... And things can change also.
Right. Yeah. Right. So those things so but you know, again, especially for our master's students who are doing thesis,
they may approach, you know, it's week one of the semester their first week.
And they're basically knocking on doors saying, would you work with me.
And you know, sometimes you just have to say no because of capacity.
(43:31):
So, you know, that's really important. And, you know, I think us being, you know, doing our own assessment, saying, what can I give?
And in part of that conversation, you may have some students who need more support than others.
Right? And so thinking about, okay, I could work with this student because at this time,
because, you know, they're looking for these kinds of things, which I can give.
(43:53):
Also when we think about the formal supervision models,
don't forget there is the possibility of a co-supervisor where you team, you know, where you team up and do that with someone.
And that's a great way for a new faculty member, you know, to get experience supervising students that way.
You know, but I will also say many of my colleagues who are racialized or come from other marginalized communities,
(44:19):
they're mentoring students, not necessarily on research, but they're mentoring because that's of who they are.
Yeah. And because they had other mentors from their communities.
And that's so important. Right.
You know, and it's often the work we do on the side of our desks, you know, that doesn't get acknowledged, but I do I take pride that,
for example, our faculty's tenure and promotion guidelines acknowledge that we want people to talk about that because it is really important.
(44:43):
And I've seen letters from external appraisers that have commented on that.
So it's good. So maybe there's a shift where it is being at least recognized in that way.
But ideally we want to think about how do we formally recognize it and think about it as, you know, part of someone's role?
Yeah, absolutely. And so that has those different aspects. Right.
So some of the structures and processes in place that a program or a faculty level,
(45:07):
but also the incentives that are in place for individual faculty members and you know,
yeah.And it's also not making the expectation though I will say that, you know
oh, because, you know, for myself, for example, as a gay man, that I'm going to be the head of the rainbow,
you know, group in our faculty, you know? Those kinds of things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The structure should support all of that.Again, it goes back.
(45:28):
to what's the capacity.
Yeah. So I will tell you when I started my first tenure track job, you know, I was going to a very big school of social work.
And at the time I was the only out faculty member.
And I had to say, like, I am, cannot take on that role.
Yeah. I'm just getting my feet under the desk., little alone, am I getting my feet wet.
(45:51):
Yeah, Right? As a new faculty member, you know, and I also relocated to a new country.
So there was other things, you know, of course, three years later, organically, I was sort of taking that role on, you know.
Yeah. But you had time to. And again, system of support.Yeah. And the time was right.
Yeah. Right. And the time was right. And also many of those students would come to me for support, you know, many of them I was, you know,
(46:12):
teaching in the classroom, you know, and, you know, some I was supervising and such as well.
And so, you know, but it sort of became I saw it as part of my role within at that time.
Whereas year one? No, I need to figure out this new system, and new place.
Yeah. So, Michael, you're on sabbatical now, which is lovely.
(46:33):
Sabbatical is always lovely.
So you might have a little bit of time to kind of look across the horizon and think about, okay, this is what I've accomplished,
these are the kinds of things that I've been doing, you know, and you've you've done so much on the mentoring scene.
So what's next? Right?
(46:54):
Big, big question. Also, notice how I didn't describe that one as a good one because it's a big one.
Right? It is a big one. I will say I'm in a bit of a catch up mode in that, you know, being in this administrative role
for four years, And so much mentoring service and just like during the really,
(47:16):
you know, challenging time in terms of the pandemic and such, you know,
and the return to campus and what that means and such, you know, anyway, all of those things.
And, so I'm really trying to sort of catch up on my publications.
But what's interesting, Debora, is that I also have to do a little bit of the kind of check that I would do with a student,
which is reminding myself of what my team has done around knowledge mobilization.
(47:40):
And in fact, the conversation I have this morning with one of my mentors from my doctoral program.
you know, I said, you know, like, I'm considering going after this grant,
and I'm not sure if I'm going to be seen as competitive because we haven't done the traditional academic outputs.
And I emphasize that we're traditional. And he said, well, what do you mean by traditional?
(48:00):
What's the nontraditional? And I told him about, you know, this major knowledge mobilization series that we ran, how, you know,
we've been doing all of this outreach, these a webinar series that we created, you know, all of these things.
And he's like, so, Michael, why do you think those are not academic outputs.
Right?Yeah. Ding. And you're like, Oh. And I said, well, I know, I know, I have to remind myself.
(48:23):
And this the exact kind of conversation I would sort of reality check I would have with somebody, you know?
But I still, we have a lot of data that we're working on with publications and such, you know, and trying to contribute to that.
I feel like we've really done a lot to contribute to the policy and practice side of things.
Now it's contributing to the research and then and the sort of, you know, the science of campus climate.
(48:48):
So it's more modeling of you as a change agent. Right?Exactly.
You know, I think also, you know, when I talk about that and just even that focus,
you know, with some of my students, you know, I say you can't do everything.
So, you know, I had to make some decisions along the way. And this is like reality will say, you know? So certainly around the research side,
(49:09):
also pursuing some new grants, you know, I am thinking about what my next step is in terms of teaching.
I don't know, probably teaching again in the master's program, which I haven't done in a few years.
So going into that and, you know, it's sort of a bit of a fresh start, I think, you know,
with the changes to our doctoral program also, you know, how would I deliver some of these courses virtually completely virtually.
(49:33):
And so, you know, and so thinking about some of that and, you know, I recently had a conversation with a,
staff member who works in our field office who actually took an MSW research course with me.
And we were talking about that, and I said,
I think I would really flip the classroom and I would make the classroom experience really about the application,
(49:55):
because what I'm seeing is that people are reading about things,
but when it comes to the actual application and getting feedback, it's sometimes it's too late.
So it actually needs to happen throughout the class, you know, throughout the, the semester and that kind of thing.
And those experiences.Modes of delivery. This is our new challenge, right?
In 2025 is as we really think about our programs and our courses and how we make them accessible.
(50:22):
Right? For all students.And it's also maintaining the principles and the standards.
Yeah. Absolutely, its a very different framing. Its very different. Teaching looks different.
It does, it does.
And also what students are able to give you know? And I will say, you know, when I think about, you know,
designing a course, I tend to be on the lean naturally lean towards more is better, but it's not right.
(50:48):
So prioritizing reading those kinds of things, but also ensuring there's a sense of that collective accountability.
So, you know, one of the things that that I do, especially teaching in person,
is collaboratively we come up with our learning principles or our classroom norms, whatever you want to talk about.
And, you know, but I bring students through a reflexive process around that where they're answering actually a sheet that they give me,
(51:11):
which is called the student information sheet. So you get to learn a little bit about them.
But there are questions about like, you know, what were some of the positive experiences for you, teach you as a student?
What were some of the negative experiences? What was the role of the instructor in that?
What was the role of your of your colleagues? What was the role of you in that?
Yeah.So often people will say, well, I didn't come to class prepared.
(51:33):
There's something when you as a group talk about that. Absolutely.
And use you, you know, able to you're able to say, well, look, when designing this course I identified the two critical readings.
Well you're activating metacognition there, right? Because then they're reflecting back on their own learning.
Okay. Well actually how do I learn?And but there's also a sense of communal accountable.
So when we develop those principles, you know, when we do midterm check in midterm evaluation, guess what?
(51:58):
We evaluate how well we as a group living up to that.
How well are you as a student. And that moment is like, oh yeah, I actually need to do a little bit better.
Right. And such. And, you know, and there's a sense of excitement that can happen because it's a communal, collective effort, you know, and such.
So I think trying to do more of that and you know, thinking about, again, being responsive to students,
(52:24):
but also knowing these are the outcomes we need to realize, and especially if folks are going to become practitioners.
The competencies that they need to hold are so critically important.
And, you know, ethically, that's what we have to prepare students for, right?
And so it's, you know, holding people to those standards. Same thing
(52:44):
if someone's going to be a researcher, you know, and even if they decide they're not, they don't want to be a faculty member if they're going to do,
you know, private consulting work, you know, they need to be able to do strong work.
And so being able to give that, set those expectations, demonstrate that in the teaching that we do.
And so by the examples that we bring in and such, you know, and even bringing in maybe, you know,
(53:06):
some of our own work which we now say this is not that great, you know, demonstrating that.
But then also, you know, in their work giving that feedback.
And so to me that's also really important mentoring, but also teaching in general is, you know, the feedback that students receive,
really has to be meaningful and push people to, you know, this is how you get to that next level, if that's needed,
(53:32):
for example. Obviously recognizing, you know, accomplishments and strengths.
But there's also where are those rooms from that room for improvement along the way?
Well, Michael, I feel so inspired by this conversation, both in terms of where mentoring fits in my own teaching practice,
but also thinking of a million things we could be doing at Laurier to build that architecture for mentoring.
(53:53):
So thank you so much for joining me here today. Thank you. Was a pleasure.
My thanks to Michael Woodford for joining me today, and I hope you will join me for more conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
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