September 20, 2024 • 38 mins
Sara Klinck from Laurier's Music Therapy program and recipient of the 2023 Sustained Excellence Award in the Part-time Category shares her journey from a clinical music therapist to an inspiring educator, emphasizing the importance of self-discovery, humility, and lifelong learning in her pedagogical approach. Sara’s commitment to fostering a supportive and inclusive learning environment shines through as she prepares students to handle weighty subjects such as end-of-life care. She discusses the integration of clinical experiences into her courses, the significance of universal design for learning, and the delicate balance of professional and personal well-being.
Laurier’s Donald F. Morgenson Awards for Teaching Excellence honour those who, through their commitment to exemplary teaching, have made significant contributions to the educational experience of Laurier students. Learn more about award-winning teaching at Laurier: https://bit.ly/award-winning-faculty
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Laurier's Teaching Excellence Conversation series.
I'm Deborah Van Nijnatten, academic director of teaching excellence and innovation at Wilfrid Laurier University.
Today, I'm with Sara Klinck from Music Therapy, who received the 2023 Sustained Excellence Award.
Sara designs her classes to be inclusive, progressive, and experiential, and her teaching leaves a lasting impact on her students.
(00:26):
She is committed to expanding community partnerships and clinical and applied experiences,
thereby providing students with unique insights that build their skills as future music therapists.
Sara has shown herself to be not only a highly effective educator and clinical supervisor,
but also a compassionate mentor who puts care at the heart of her practice.
(01:11):
Welcome, Sara. Thank you so much for joining me here today.
And I wanted to start at the beginning of your teaching practice because you came to teaching somewhat indirectly, right.
Having worked as a music therapy practitioner. So certainly in your dossier,
it really comes through strongly that your teaching practice represents a really nice blend of theoretical knowledge
(01:36):
and applied learning. Can you talk just a little bit about how you got into teaching?
What was the spark when you thought, okay, this is you know, I want to do this.
It's sort of interesting. I never thought I would be a teacher.
I loved working with people I knew.
I felt passionate about music therapy as a profession, and I was a clinical music therapist for several years and still am somewhat in my work.
(02:05):
And it was at that point, I really wanted to pour into the clinical work, growing programs.
And it was about seven years into my career that I came back to university,
to my master of music therapy with an interest in research, with music therapy and the bereaved.
(02:26):
And when I came back, I had the opportunity to come into music therapy courses as a guest lecturer and to share about my clinical work.
And it really was that invitation to come in and speak about my practice and the approaches that I use,
the significant stories from the work that, I could see students responding to the clinical work.
(02:51):
And was that at Laurier? Guest lectures at Laurier. Yeah, that was at Laurier.
And as part of following my master's, I also became a clinical supervisor.
And so there was a different arm of sort of teaching there or mentoring and not in the classroom.
And so throughout that year or two of doing my master's beginning
(03:14):
my work as a clinical supervisor alongside practice and having these opportunities to,
to present and to lecture in some courses,
I started to see the impact that the work and mentoring and teaching about the work could have on really like the next generation of therapists.
(03:34):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
I think leading up to that, I had always, enjoyed doing some of the presenting and advocacy piece, which is a big part of music therapy work.
It's, you know, advocating for the benefits and speaking to the work that we do.
So I had done a number of professional presentations,
and I got a taste for how to share the material with health care professionals and interdisciplinary teams in ways that was accessible to them.
(04:02):
Right, right. And I think that it was sort of this snowball that was building to the spark,
that I experienced when I came back and actually interacted with music therapy students and really
felt a passion for training and coming alongside developing new professionals in the field.
(04:23):
And so what was the first class that you had at Laurier?
Do you remember the first class that I actually got as a course?
I think there was two. One was music therapy, theory and research, and the other one was Intro to Music Therapy.
So both sort of junior level courses. Right. Undergraduate courses and and quite different.
(04:44):
and what was interesting that I grew to really develop maybe
or I was inspired by or grew a passion for was really trying to mix the theoretical knowledge with the applicable knowledge.
Right. And how do I actually help students to grasp this,
(05:06):
to be able to speak about what they're doing and how it's connected with philosophies and theories and models,
but what do those actually look like fleshed out? And so really trying to pair that, is it foundational knowledge and functional knowledge.
And in both of those classes, I mean, the intro class was also just a lot of fun because it was this broader survey of this
(05:29):
is what music therapy can look like across all these different client populations,
and really trying to spark their interest in the field and the vast potentials of what music therapy could do.
I wonder if I can follow up on that, because one of the things that you clearly do very well in your classes,
that you build clinical experience and mentorship directly into the courses that you teach, right.
(05:52):
Can you talk a little bit about how you do this? Because the students are doing therapy almost right away, right?
Yeah, I sure try to.
I mean, I think that it's those clinical examples and the the functional, applicable knowledge that I think sticks with the students.
I know that at least for me, coming through the programs, that's what stuck with me the most was when my professors would share,
(06:17):
their clinical experiences, their stories, and actually then have us try out techniques.
And that's really what I try and bring into my classes.
I do think that the music therapy program and courses lend themselves to being quite hands on applicable.
one of the courses that I've currently taught quite a bit is, clinical music psychotherapy skills at the graduate level.
(06:42):
And so we're really diving in, we're trying out skills, we're workshopping techniques.
And I think, again, having those embodied workshopping experiences helps us to connect the theoretical knowledge with what
does it actually look like when I'm face to face with a client or when I'm trying to facilitate a group?
Can we try that out in class? So in in the courses that I teach.
(07:05):
Each class I teach, I really try to oscillate between this is what the literature says and what theories we're drawing from,
and this is what it can look like.
And how about we try this out in our class so that there's less hesitation to then try to figure out how to bring it into their own clinical practice,
because I'm trying to model that for them and give them opportunities to make the connections within the class itself,
(07:30):
as opposed to trying to piece it together outside of the classroom on their own.
I like that link that you made between, you know, what stuck with you when you were going through the system, and then what you do in your classes.
And one of the points that you make in your dossier, which is great, is that you realized there were gaps in what you got.
And so you try to fill those gaps in terms of the clinical experience and some of the applied learning aim.
(07:54):
Yeah, I think that it's interesting.
Each course and each program, I think, does its best to try and give a broad scope of and and real foundational knowledge.
And yet there are gaps that I didn't feel until I was out trying to practice.
Right, right. And then and you're like, oh yeah, absolutely.
(08:14):
I don't feel ready. I have to figure this out in the moment.
Whereas now looking at how I'm developing the courses, I'm trying to give more opportunity to do that, even if I have the skills.
Yeah, the skills and even in the assignments that I'm bringing into courses, trying to make them really applicable and the hands on, uh,
for what pre professionals and what new professionals will, will need or perhaps benefit from as they enter the fields that maybe we don't focus.
(08:45):
We, we didn't focus on a lot when I was doing my program.
And one thing that you mentioned with the introductory course is, you know, trying to look across the vast diversity of human needs for music therapy.
How do you prepare students for that? Oh, it's so vast and diverse.
(09:06):
A person's issues are going to be unique, right?
They really are unique. And I think there's a few different things that I like to keep in mind.
And I remind students, one is that like as a therapist, we see so much need and often there is more need and then what we can do as one person.
(09:28):
Right. And so in in my clinical work and in my teaching work, I feel like over time I've become more and more collaborative.
I've seen the need to learn to continue learning from others to partnering with others who know these different clinical contexts better than I did,
who have vast experience working with different populations than what I have.
(09:53):
And if I can partner with them, collaborate with them.
That might mean bringing in experts that colleagues of mine who are experts in those fields into the courses to share,
you know, even if it's if it's for one lecture or I just this past year,
the past two years,
I've had wonderful colleagues who have joined us over zoom for 20 minutes to speak to part of their work and field questions from the students.
(10:19):
And the feedback that I've gotten from students is that that's been really helpful to hear.
Again, different perspectives, not just my own all the time and from different contexts and even different approaches as therapists,
because the students are discovering who they are as therapists.
And I see my role, their own approach, and I see my role as a music therapy educator and supervisor, less as
(10:47):
I don't want them to emulate me because they're their unique person, but it's about their own self-discovery.
And how can I best support that? Part of the the reality of diverse clinical work is that I think over time,
and this is more of an anti oppressive approach to practice, which encourages us to continue broadening our skill set our knowledge,
(11:12):
continuing to learn and grow, and to approach the work with a humility and with an understanding that,
we're not there to, to fix or to do all the time.
We're there to be with and to be taught.
I learned so much from my clients and from my colleagues, and if I can be open and humble to keep growing and do the personal work.
(11:35):
So this is the other thing that I really emphasize with students is we can't prepare
ourselves for every clinical situation that we're will encounter because they will be new.
But we can prepare ourselves by knowing ourselves as the therapy tool.
So that means even in all of my clinical interactions, I am responding.
(11:57):
I'm observing them through my own subjective experience and my own subjective self.
And I need to be aware of that so that. I can hold open space and respond to whatever clinical situation is.
I'm in. So by doing the the personal, the safe and effective use of self work, knowing myself,
(12:18):
knowing my approaches, being aware of what's coming up for me in the work.
And that way I grow my knowledge about who I am as a therapist,
which helps me to better differentiate and see what the issues are outside of
myself and how I can adapt and respond to whatever clinical situation I'm in.
(12:39):
This must be very challenging for you because the your expertise and the space within which you work is,
terminal illness and palliative care, bereavement.
Right. How do you prepare students to deal with this?
These are weighty, weighty issues. How do you prepare students for that?
(13:00):
it's a great question and one that I think
We all process differently. I think that's part of it, and I can speak to it from my experience.
And it is a way to work.
I'd say a lot of different clinical contexts have their own weight, and at the same time they also have their own.
(13:25):
There's something about the privilege of, bearing witness to transformative life experiences,
and I'd say, and end of life care and bereavement support.
I get to bear witness to so many meaningful moments of connection or of transformation or of expression.
(13:48):
And I say that that often balances the weightiness of the work, and I share that with my students.
I get a lot of questions when I share clinical work and class around how on earth can I manage to keep doing the work in this context?
And so we do. We talk a lot about self-care, and I was just connected to that because this is no doubt draining work.
(14:11):
Right? I talk a lot with my students who are doing their clinical placements with me,
or their internships with me where I can dive more into it because they are now in the field,
they're practicing the work, and then we meet for clinical supervision.
And we can workshop specific things. And this is outside of the course.
This is their clinical place, their internship. And actually now here at Laurier, the the practicum and the internship is part of the overall course.
(14:38):
this is when they are actually on site doing the work in the actual courses that I teach.
I still try to do some preparation for the work, but it's also a bit broader.
I share specific clinical experiences and I have, again,
the honor of being given permission to share some of the recordings that I have from clinical work that I have consent to share.
(15:04):
And that is always profoundly impactful for the students to actually listen to what this work sounds like when I'm doing lyric Improvization,
or when we're doing song writing, or when I'm supporting a client as they're singing out their messages to loved ones.
So it's very impactful to hear those recordings.
(15:26):
And I try and remind the students that this is, again,
this balance of this honor of of being invited into clients lives when they're going through really hard stuff,
which is an end of life care, but which also is relatable.
And in many clinical contexts that clients let us in to be part of, to companion with them along their journey.
(15:49):
And that's a real privilege and honor that that we sit with and we be with.
And so it is weighty. And yet there is there's such a sense of
Gratitude and fulfillment that comes from the work as well, that I think sustains us.
And so I talk very openly with the students about my own process,
(16:12):
so that in hopes that it will also help them to see how they can be sustained in doing the work.
Right. Each of us is unique therapists. and it is a weighty.
But there's also balanced with moments of levity and love and joy in these contexts
that we need to recognize and be aware of and be filled up by both in the work,
(16:34):
and then make sure that we have some really good support networks and self-care strategies outside of the work, because we are the container,
and we have to empty the container elsewhere so that we can continue being the container for our client's needs.
I love that phrase companion with them because that's really what you're doing with your students as well.
(16:55):
Right. One of the things that stands out in terms of your nomination package is how central care,
approachability, authenticity are to your teaching practice.
So that comes clearly from your therapy practice.
I think it's just so kind for the students to say that, and it feels so,
(17:17):
satisfying that that they have felt supported in their journey.
Absolutely. That certainly comes through in the letters in your in your nomination package.
Right. I think that's very humbling. And yeah, that's so kind of them to say.
And what a joy for an instructor to hear that students feel like they are really getting something out of the courses.
(17:41):
And I think that part of it, I mean, my approach to teaching, again, because I came to it as a therapist.
I think that my therapist self,
I bring my authentic self to my therapy and to my teaching in terms of really caring for people and caring for these students as as human beings.
(18:03):
And I care for their education, but I also really authentically care for their well-being.
And I think and I do continue to hope that that comes through in the way that that I teach.
And I think the part of it which I've come to realize through my previous experiences with various
(18:23):
training is that there I know that I respond more to encouragement first rather than criticism.
And so when I'm trying to cultivate sort of this, an atmosphere of encouragement or a welcome and,
and build relationships, build relationships in the classroom, encouraging.
(18:46):
Yes. Building those relations? And that the students feel respected and cared for.
I think it it's more conducive what I've seen in the classroom to them then being willing to try things or to take risks or for them feeling that,
okay, there is space here for me to figure out who I am as a therapist and to actually take
(19:09):
and apply this material in a way that feels genuine and that resonates with me,
as opposed to it feeling like it's a space that is critical or full of judgment for making mistakes.
I often try to emphasize that, you know, let's approach this in the sense of like learning together.
(19:30):
Like we all have something to learn and we all have something to contribute.
And if I can model that desire for lifelong learning, in the questions that I ask and being curious about things or,
and honestly answering questions with, you know, I don't know, that's a great question.
Let's talk about that. Let's talk about what this issue could look like from different vantage points or, you know, I'm not sure about that.
(19:55):
Let me maybe I can consult with some of my colleagues and then bring an answer back to you, or we can keep the conversation going.
I think by modeling that it can reduce some of the anxiety from the students.
Just seeing an instructor as like the expert, or that the work is unattainable for them.
because I'm more interested in teaching them how to think through problems critically or think through clinical issues,
(20:21):
which they'll have to do right. In the moment, based on what the need is and on who they are as therapists in their approach.
And so that's why, again, developing coming alongside companion in them and developing their own therapeutic approach,
I think is really foundational for music therapy instruction and education.
(20:42):
You know, and I think one of the other things you're doing in your relationship building is you're meeting them where they're at, right?
Meeting the students where they are at in terms of learning,
because one of the things that you do is you incorporate universal design for learning through your courses, right?
Building in flexibility and in.
(21:02):
Your assessments and providing materials in different formats in considering space and movement in the classroom, right.
So, you know, how has your incorporation then, of universal design principles developed over time?
Like what is what? What did you do? What got you into UDL?
And then, you know, how did that develop over time? Yeah, I think it's an ongoing process.
(21:27):
I'm learning all the time. And I think that there's a few key things that have impacted the way that that I consider it.
one like as a family, we navigate difference and neurodivergent and different physical disabilities.
and so it's more on my radar to be looking at different ways of accessing the world and accessing material and,
(21:53):
and communication of knowledge so that that is on my radar.
And also, I feel like I've learned so much from the students, and I feel, again,
grateful that students have had the courage to approach me with questions or with
things that they could see being done a bit differently, or them asking for materials in a different way,
(22:19):
because that has put it on my radar to consider again, okay, in response to this need.
So I'd say it started out as more just open and responsive to questions or issues that students were bringing to me, and that over time,
it's it's just become I try to be more proactive, uh, instead of responsive in the moment, to be proactive in how I'm designing the course.
(22:43):
They respond. How do the students respond? Well, I think that they are now finding different routes to be able to show their learning,
to be able to engage with assignments in ways that are really impactful and effective for them, instead of it just being work that needs to get done.
It's they're engaging, I think, more authentically in the work,
(23:06):
and they're having these avenues without trying to reduce some of the anxiety and
the stress around just certain kinds of assessment and certain kinds of teaching.
So just I don't mean to interrupt you there, but just thinking on that point, what would you say to faculty that are thinking,
you know, I would like to integrate UDL more meaningfully in my course design?
(23:29):
You started talking about assessments right off the bat, right? What are some things that faculty can do to get started on this journey?
Yeah. Great question.
I'm trying to think back to when I started and also things that I think about now all the time is am I providing as I'm developing a course,
am I providing enough diversity in the ways that I am inviting students to show their knowledge?
(23:56):
I can and I do think that for me, that starts at the critical question.
Yeah. At the at the phase of designing it, am I giving them opportunity to verbally show me that their engagement with the
material or in writing or in another modality through like demonstrating a technique?
I also because a number of my courses are quite hands on and applicable,
(24:20):
I also recognize that performance anxiety is quite high for some students, and these are courses that are very workshopping, demonstration based.
How do how do I also provide space for students who struggle with sharing in large groups of people their knowledge?
And so I, I have approached more of this, the think pair share model,
(24:45):
right where they can take a moment to think about themselves and smaller spaces more,
maybe less intimidating, and then open it up to larger group class discussion.
For those who really do appreciate that, that going back and forth, asking questions or answering questions in front of the whole class,
and even for those who don't feel comfortable doing that, I can still see.
(25:07):
I as I walk around, as we're engaging in classroom discussion,
even those who don't want to share in front of the whole class are still engaging and like the 1 to 1 conversations with their peers.
And I'm able to see that they are engaging with the material.
So yeah, I'd say in terms of recommendations for how to do this,
(25:28):
I think just being open and humble as an instructor to to hear feedback from students around
what is effective for them in terms of teaching approaches and in terms of assessment.
I know in some of my courses, instead of doing one and an exam, it's like smaller quizzes throughout.
There are lower stress quizzes.
(25:49):
Yeah. and then in some of the other courses, there's flexibility in, how they choose to hand in some written assignments.
I like to be really clear with. grading, my grading schemata, but I also try and buffer and a lot of flexibility,
because I think having clarity in terms of what my expectations are also reduces some of the confusion or the uncertainty for students,
(26:17):
but the way that they actually meet those requirements, there can be some flexibility around that,
as long as they are addressing those points that are outlined.
And in the main learning of the assignment, it's clear your students, appreciate that for sure.
It's funny because for many years now, I have been struck by how surprised students are that professors care.
(26:38):
Right. And that comes through in the letter. You know, they had this wonderful educational experience and felt really
heard and could really demonstrate their learning and share their joy in that with you as well.
but students are often surprised by that and this really comes through in your package.
(27:02):
where do you think this impression comes from.
Right. Like, I get this over and over again.
The surprise that you know that a professor cares and, of course come to my office and of course, let's talk about it.
And yeah, for sure, there can be some flexibility and we can think our way through that.
Right? I think they're coming to us with these preconceived notions that we then have to kind of, you know, work them out of.
(27:26):
I think so. I think that as human beings and as students, I know I also have my own experiences of
academia and experiencing a lot of support in some cases and also feeling a lot of anxiety and fear in other cases.
And we all have our previous experiences, I think, with, people who are
(27:50):
perhaps we feel they have more authority or people who have more, power over us.
And I think that those power dynamics are very existent in academia and in health care systems.
There are these hierarchies that we experience.
And often, you know, when I talk with students, I've had a number of students tell me that I have trouble talking with instructors,
(28:15):
or I have trouble talking with anyone who's trying to break down that anxiety.
Yeah, that's a how do we do that?
Other times, yeah. But they're telling me and I think that's a great first step, right.
That they that they felt brave and safe enough to tell me and also that that it makes me approach the
(28:38):
work more with an understanding that students are here with varying layers of previous life experiences,
previous relational experiences with, with instructors or with faculty and, you know, in therapy work,
we often try to adopt this more of this trauma approach lens to work and realizing that human beings, we have layers of life experiences and traumas.
(29:05):
And I think that recognizing that students do, too, helps me to be more compassionate and empathetic.
And also, it makes me realize that the power dynamics are inherent.
How can I actually try to minimize that as much as I can in the classroom?
So yeah, what signals. Yeah. You send out. Right. Exactly.
(29:27):
Your course outline, you know, in what you're doing in class.
And I think part of that is, of course, the students come and the professor is often seen as the expert in the field.
I would say that there's a lot of clinical experience here,
but if I can model to them that I'm continuing to grow too, I'm by no means the expert in this.
But I can share with you what I've learned and I will continue learning with you.
(29:52):
It can reduce some of, I think, that power dynamic and that um,
and approachability and realize that, okay, we can learn together, we can problem solve together.
And let me model for you. Let me share with you. Yeah, some of the incredible clinical work that I've been able to be a part of.
But let me also share with you some of like the messy and the things that didn't go as I had expected.
(30:15):
And this is what really had me pondering, you know, what on earth am I doing?
And to actually show myself as being human and needing to sort through clinical issues that have stumped me even after, you know,
this decade and a half of clinical experience, that there's still there's still learning and there's still openness to grow.
(30:37):
So I think by trying to balance and reduce some of the seeing, being seen as the unapproachable expert to being the, oh,
the lifelong open learner who doesn't have it all figured out but can draw on a lot of clinical experience and theory and in clinical practice,
and share that learning with students
(30:58):
So you're also learning in the classroom. We are.
Also, you know, learning in the classroom constantly. So what risks have you taken in the classroom in terms of your, teaching practice?
Are there some that paid off and some that didn't?
Yes and yes.
(31:19):
I think that that probably for the most part taking risks has often paid off.
Well, because again, I'm trying to model that. Maybe we'll try something out and see how it goes.
This is how I might approach something. Or sometimes I might try like let's workshop this kind of clinical scenario.
And sometimes in the middle of it I get stumped.
(31:39):
I'm like, oh, this is you know, you're seeing your instructor as someone who doesn't have it all figured out, and the students actually love that.
And there have been times where I shared, an audio clip of a lyric improvization I was doing with a client, and I was singing some questions.
(31:59):
He was singing back to me, and it became this beautiful musical dialog.
And afterwards, like the students were very impacted.
And we have a bit of a debriefing where they can ask questions.
And one of the students was like, well, that was beautiful, but I could never do anything like that.
And it was one of these moments where as an instructor, I was like, oh, that was it was too much or I didn't.
(32:24):
The intent was not to share it in a way that then made it seem unattainable or unachievable.
And so that also reminded me. So following that experience, it made me realize that, okay,
we need to actually I need to do some time workshopping this kind of technique or talking about all the things
that that were going through my mind as I was just in the experience with the client so that it didn't feel like
(32:50):
an experience that then didn't land, or that the students felt like there was no way they could do that.
Because ultimately, my role is trying to help them figure out how they could do something similar.
That you made sense. Yeah. See you as mentor.
So how do we make teaching sustainable for ourselves and in your field?
(33:11):
You know, the pressures are very immediate. Right.
So what are the kinds of things that you can do or that you do to make, you know,
to keep yourself rejuvenated and energetic and joyful for teaching, right.
Yeah. These weighty things. Sure. Difficulties. Yes.
I feel like that's a unique journey for each of us.
(33:33):
And doing the education piece and the clinical work piece,
it is really trying to find that optimal work life balance, which looks different for each of us.
And that's something that I talk about with my students too, and my interns is, you know, really checking in with yourself.
I check in with myself all the time as different, like life needs family, caregiving needs change in different seasons.
(34:00):
And I'm grateful to have the opportunity that to teach as part of that.
And I love the teaching in a lot of ways. It's nourishing and energizing for me.
And I realized that I need to do it in balance. So actually being part time contract teaching faculty does give me more flexibility and
freedom that feels like the right balance for me right now in this season of life,
(34:25):
because it's inspiring to work with students.
I feel like by teaching, it's making me think a lot about what I do and responding to students and interns.
Questions about why I made that clinical decision causes me to really reflect on my work in a way that that's important and helpful for me.
And at the same time, I also know that the teaching, the the weight of,
(34:50):
of the work and of supporting students in their learning needs to be balanced with my own self-care and my own,
doing the things and being with the people that nourish my heart and my mind,
and being intentional about making time for that is really important, at least for me.
I think for many of us. But again, the path looks different and if we can, I think,
(35:12):
allow ourselves to tune into what is it that my mind, my heart, my being need for optimal balance?
That's really what what sustains us in the work is tapping into that balance and actually being quite intentional about that.
Indeed. So what is next on the horizon for you in terms of your teaching?
(35:34):
Yeah, I think that continuing to work with students, I may not have shared this with you before,
but I am actually in the process of doing my PhD as well.
So yes. So just adding another role there.
When do you find time for that? Yeah, there's a lot there.
But at the same time I'm excited about this new chapter too.
(35:57):
And I think that motivation of continuing to work with students and lots of reflection
Yeah. So if you've got all this conceptual work that you're doing in your PhD and you've got your clinical practice and then you've got your teaching.
Yeah. For me it feels like it's a nice mixture of using like different parts of who I am.
(36:23):
And they're all authentic parts of who I am. And yet there's also, I think, speaks to my desire to keep growing and learning new skills.
The fact that I'm so excited about research methods is new for me and in my life,
and I think it's because I've found a topic that I'm very passionate about, which stemmed from my clinical work.
(36:44):
and so now the prospect of learning how to.
create robust research projects and, write, research articles.
I feel like that is it's going to be growing and flexing a skill set that I'm
excited about venturing into and also supporting students as they do more research.
(37:07):
So that is really what's on the horizon, and I'm excited for what's next,
to keep connected with the students in the classroom, but also in the clinical work.
And now also hopefully into this branch of doing research.
I feel and I hope will be a really nice combination and will further inform the way that I teach this combination of theory and practice.
(37:32):
Thank you so much for joining me here today to talk about your teaching practice, and we wish you all the best with your PhD studies.
My thanks to Sara Klinck for joining me today, and I hope you will join me for more conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
Welcome to Laurier's Teaching Excellence Conversation series.
I'm Deborah Van Nijnatten, academic director of teaching excellence and innovation at Wilfrid Laurier University.
Today, I'm with Sara Klinck from Music Therapy, who received the 2023 Sustained Excellence Award.
Sara designs her classes to be inclusive, progressive, and experiential, and her teaching leaves a lasting impact on her students.
(00:26):
She is committed to expanding community partnerships and clinical and applied experiences,
thereby providing students with unique insights that build their skills as future music therapists.
Sara has shown herself to be not only a highly effective educator and clinical supervisor,
but also a compassionate mentor who puts care at the heart of her practice.
(01:11):
Welcome, Sara. Thank you so much for joining me here today.
And I wanted to start at the beginning of your teaching practice because you came to teaching somewhat indirectly, right.
Having worked as a music therapy practitioner. So certainly in your dossier,
it really comes through strongly that your teaching practice represents a really nice blend of theoretical knowledge
(01:36):
and applied learning. Can you talk just a little bit about how you got into teaching?
What was the spark when you thought, okay, this is you know, I want to do this.
It's sort of interesting. I never thought I would be a teacher.
I loved working with people I knew.
I felt passionate about music therapy as a profession, and I was a clinical music therapist for several years and still am somewhat in my work.
(02:05):
And it was at that point, I really wanted to pour into the clinical work, growing programs.
And it was about seven years into my career that I came back to university,
to my master of music therapy with an interest in research, with music therapy and the bereaved.
(02:26):
And when I came back, I had the opportunity to come into music therapy courses as a guest lecturer and to share about my clinical work.
And it really was that invitation to come in and speak about my practice and the approaches that I use,
the significant stories from the work that, I could see students responding to the clinical work.
(02:51):
And was that at Laurier? Guest lectures at Laurier. Yeah, that was at Laurier.
And as part of following my master's, I also became a clinical supervisor.
And so there was a different arm of sort of teaching there or mentoring and not in the classroom.
And so throughout that year or two of doing my master's beginning
(03:14):
my work as a clinical supervisor alongside practice and having these opportunities to,
to present and to lecture in some courses,
I started to see the impact that the work and mentoring and teaching about the work could have on really like the next generation of therapists.
(03:34):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
I think leading up to that, I had always, enjoyed doing some of the presenting and advocacy piece, which is a big part of music therapy work.
It's, you know, advocating for the benefits and speaking to the work that we do.
So I had done a number of professional presentations,
and I got a taste for how to share the material with health care professionals and interdisciplinary teams in ways that was accessible to them.
(04:02):
Right, right. And I think that it was sort of this snowball that was building to the spark,
that I experienced when I came back and actually interacted with music therapy students and really
felt a passion for training and coming alongside developing new professionals in the field.
(04:23):
And so what was the first class that you had at Laurier?
Do you remember the first class that I actually got as a course?
I think there was two. One was music therapy, theory and research, and the other one was Intro to Music Therapy.
So both sort of junior level courses. Right. Undergraduate courses and and quite different.
(04:44):
and what was interesting that I grew to really develop maybe
or I was inspired by or grew a passion for was really trying to mix the theoretical knowledge with the applicable knowledge.
Right. And how do I actually help students to grasp this,
(05:06):
to be able to speak about what they're doing and how it's connected with philosophies and theories and models,
but what do those actually look like fleshed out? And so really trying to pair that, is it foundational knowledge and functional knowledge.
And in both of those classes, I mean, the intro class was also just a lot of fun because it was this broader survey of this
(05:29):
is what music therapy can look like across all these different client populations,
and really trying to spark their interest in the field and the vast potentials of what music therapy could do.
I wonder if I can follow up on that, because one of the things that you clearly do very well in your classes,
that you build clinical experience and mentorship directly into the courses that you teach, right.
(05:52):
Can you talk a little bit about how you do this? Because the students are doing therapy almost right away, right?
Yeah, I sure try to.
I mean, I think that it's those clinical examples and the the functional, applicable knowledge that I think sticks with the students.
I know that at least for me, coming through the programs, that's what stuck with me the most was when my professors would share,
(06:17):
their clinical experiences, their stories, and actually then have us try out techniques.
And that's really what I try and bring into my classes.
I do think that the music therapy program and courses lend themselves to being quite hands on applicable.
one of the courses that I've currently taught quite a bit is, clinical music psychotherapy skills at the graduate level.
(06:42):
And so we're really diving in, we're trying out skills, we're workshopping techniques.
And I think, again, having those embodied workshopping experiences helps us to connect the theoretical knowledge with what
does it actually look like when I'm face to face with a client or when I'm trying to facilitate a group?
Can we try that out in class? So in in the courses that I teach.
(07:05):
Each class I teach, I really try to oscillate between this is what the literature says and what theories we're drawing from,
and this is what it can look like.
And how about we try this out in our class so that there's less hesitation to then try to figure out how to bring it into their own clinical practice,
because I'm trying to model that for them and give them opportunities to make the connections within the class itself,
(07:30):
as opposed to trying to piece it together outside of the classroom on their own.
I like that link that you made between, you know, what stuck with you when you were going through the system, and then what you do in your classes.
And one of the points that you make in your dossier, which is great, is that you realized there were gaps in what you got.
And so you try to fill those gaps in terms of the clinical experience and some of the applied learning aim.
(07:54):
Yeah, I think that it's interesting.
Each course and each program, I think, does its best to try and give a broad scope of and and real foundational knowledge.
And yet there are gaps that I didn't feel until I was out trying to practice.
Right, right. And then and you're like, oh yeah, absolutely.
(08:14):
I don't feel ready. I have to figure this out in the moment.
Whereas now looking at how I'm developing the courses, I'm trying to give more opportunity to do that, even if I have the skills.
Yeah, the skills and even in the assignments that I'm bringing into courses, trying to make them really applicable and the hands on, uh,
for what pre professionals and what new professionals will, will need or perhaps benefit from as they enter the fields that maybe we don't focus.
(08:45):
We, we didn't focus on a lot when I was doing my program.
And one thing that you mentioned with the introductory course is, you know, trying to look across the vast diversity of human needs for music therapy.
How do you prepare students for that? Oh, it's so vast and diverse.
(09:06):
A person's issues are going to be unique, right?
They really are unique. And I think there's a few different things that I like to keep in mind.
And I remind students, one is that like as a therapist, we see so much need and often there is more need and then what we can do as one person.
(09:28):
Right. And so in in my clinical work and in my teaching work, I feel like over time I've become more and more collaborative.
I've seen the need to learn to continue learning from others to partnering with others who know these different clinical contexts better than I did,
who have vast experience working with different populations than what I have.
(09:53):
And if I can partner with them, collaborate with them.
That might mean bringing in experts that colleagues of mine who are experts in those fields into the courses to share,
you know, even if it's if it's for one lecture or I just this past year,
the past two years,
I've had wonderful colleagues who have joined us over zoom for 20 minutes to speak to part of their work and field questions from the students.
(10:19):
And the feedback that I've gotten from students is that that's been really helpful to hear.
Again, different perspectives, not just my own all the time and from different contexts and even different approaches as therapists,
because the students are discovering who they are as therapists.
And I see my role, their own approach, and I see my role as a music therapy educator and supervisor, less as
(10:47):
I don't want them to emulate me because they're their unique person, but it's about their own self-discovery.
And how can I best support that? Part of the the reality of diverse clinical work is that I think over time,
and this is more of an anti oppressive approach to practice, which encourages us to continue broadening our skill set our knowledge,
(11:12):
continuing to learn and grow, and to approach the work with a humility and with an understanding that,
we're not there to, to fix or to do all the time.
We're there to be with and to be taught.
I learned so much from my clients and from my colleagues, and if I can be open and humble to keep growing and do the personal work.
(11:35):
So this is the other thing that I really emphasize with students is we can't prepare
ourselves for every clinical situation that we're will encounter because they will be new.
But we can prepare ourselves by knowing ourselves as the therapy tool.
So that means even in all of my clinical interactions, I am responding.
(11:57):
I'm observing them through my own subjective experience and my own subjective self.
And I need to be aware of that so that. I can hold open space and respond to whatever clinical situation is.
I'm in. So by doing the the personal, the safe and effective use of self work, knowing myself,
(12:18):
knowing my approaches, being aware of what's coming up for me in the work.
And that way I grow my knowledge about who I am as a therapist,
which helps me to better differentiate and see what the issues are outside of
myself and how I can adapt and respond to whatever clinical situation I'm in.
(12:39):
This must be very challenging for you because the your expertise and the space within which you work is,
terminal illness and palliative care, bereavement.
Right. How do you prepare students to deal with this?
These are weighty, weighty issues. How do you prepare students for that?
(13:00):
it's a great question and one that I think
We all process differently. I think that's part of it, and I can speak to it from my experience.
And it is a way to work.
I'd say a lot of different clinical contexts have their own weight, and at the same time they also have their own.
(13:25):
There's something about the privilege of, bearing witness to transformative life experiences,
and I'd say, and end of life care and bereavement support.
I get to bear witness to so many meaningful moments of connection or of transformation or of expression.
(13:48):
And I say that that often balances the weightiness of the work, and I share that with my students.
I get a lot of questions when I share clinical work and class around how on earth can I manage to keep doing the work in this context?
And so we do. We talk a lot about self-care, and I was just connected to that because this is no doubt draining work.
(14:11):
Right? I talk a lot with my students who are doing their clinical placements with me,
or their internships with me where I can dive more into it because they are now in the field,
they're practicing the work, and then we meet for clinical supervision.
And we can workshop specific things. And this is outside of the course.
This is their clinical place, their internship. And actually now here at Laurier, the the practicum and the internship is part of the overall course.
(14:38):
this is when they are actually on site doing the work in the actual courses that I teach.
I still try to do some preparation for the work, but it's also a bit broader.
I share specific clinical experiences and I have, again,
the honor of being given permission to share some of the recordings that I have from clinical work that I have consent to share.
(15:04):
And that is always profoundly impactful for the students to actually listen to what this work sounds like when I'm doing lyric Improvization,
or when we're doing song writing, or when I'm supporting a client as they're singing out their messages to loved ones.
So it's very impactful to hear those recordings.
(15:26):
And I try and remind the students that this is, again,
this balance of this honor of of being invited into clients lives when they're going through really hard stuff,
which is an end of life care, but which also is relatable.
And in many clinical contexts that clients let us in to be part of, to companion with them along their journey.
(15:49):
And that's a real privilege and honor that that we sit with and we be with.
And so it is weighty. And yet there is there's such a sense of
Gratitude and fulfillment that comes from the work as well, that I think sustains us.
And so I talk very openly with the students about my own process,
(16:12):
so that in hopes that it will also help them to see how they can be sustained in doing the work.
Right. Each of us is unique therapists. and it is a weighty.
But there's also balanced with moments of levity and love and joy in these contexts
that we need to recognize and be aware of and be filled up by both in the work,
(16:34):
and then make sure that we have some really good support networks and self-care strategies outside of the work, because we are the container,
and we have to empty the container elsewhere so that we can continue being the container for our client's needs.
I love that phrase companion with them because that's really what you're doing with your students as well.
(16:55):
Right. One of the things that stands out in terms of your nomination package is how central care,
approachability, authenticity are to your teaching practice.
So that comes clearly from your therapy practice.
I think it's just so kind for the students to say that, and it feels so,
(17:17):
satisfying that that they have felt supported in their journey.
Absolutely. That certainly comes through in the letters in your in your nomination package.
Right. I think that's very humbling. And yeah, that's so kind of them to say.
And what a joy for an instructor to hear that students feel like they are really getting something out of the courses.
(17:41):
And I think that part of it, I mean, my approach to teaching, again, because I came to it as a therapist.
I think that my therapist self,
I bring my authentic self to my therapy and to my teaching in terms of really caring for people and caring for these students as as human beings.
(18:03):
And I care for their education, but I also really authentically care for their well-being.
And I think and I do continue to hope that that comes through in the way that that I teach.
And I think the part of it which I've come to realize through my previous experiences with various
(18:23):
training is that there I know that I respond more to encouragement first rather than criticism.
And so when I'm trying to cultivate sort of this, an atmosphere of encouragement or a welcome and,
and build relationships, build relationships in the classroom, encouraging.
(18:46):
Yes. Building those relations? And that the students feel respected and cared for.
I think it it's more conducive what I've seen in the classroom to them then being willing to try things or to take risks or for them feeling that,
okay, there is space here for me to figure out who I am as a therapist and to actually take
(19:09):
and apply this material in a way that feels genuine and that resonates with me,
as opposed to it feeling like it's a space that is critical or full of judgment for making mistakes.
I often try to emphasize that, you know, let's approach this in the sense of like learning together.
(19:30):
Like we all have something to learn and we all have something to contribute.
And if I can model that desire for lifelong learning, in the questions that I ask and being curious about things or,
and honestly answering questions with, you know, I don't know, that's a great question.
Let's talk about that. Let's talk about what this issue could look like from different vantage points or, you know, I'm not sure about that.
(19:55):
Let me maybe I can consult with some of my colleagues and then bring an answer back to you, or we can keep the conversation going.
I think by modeling that it can reduce some of the anxiety from the students.
Just seeing an instructor as like the expert, or that the work is unattainable for them.
because I'm more interested in teaching them how to think through problems critically or think through clinical issues,
(20:21):
which they'll have to do right. In the moment, based on what the need is and on who they are as therapists in their approach.
And so that's why, again, developing coming alongside companion in them and developing their own therapeutic approach,
I think is really foundational for music therapy instruction and education.
(20:42):
You know, and I think one of the other things you're doing in your relationship building is you're meeting them where they're at, right?
Meeting the students where they are at in terms of learning,
because one of the things that you do is you incorporate universal design for learning through your courses, right?
Building in flexibility and in.
(21:02):
Your assessments and providing materials in different formats in considering space and movement in the classroom, right.
So, you know, how has your incorporation then, of universal design principles developed over time?
Like what is what? What did you do? What got you into UDL?
And then, you know, how did that develop over time? Yeah, I think it's an ongoing process.
(21:27):
I'm learning all the time. And I think that there's a few key things that have impacted the way that that I consider it.
one like as a family, we navigate difference and neurodivergent and different physical disabilities.
and so it's more on my radar to be looking at different ways of accessing the world and accessing material and,
(21:53):
and communication of knowledge so that that is on my radar.
And also, I feel like I've learned so much from the students, and I feel, again,
grateful that students have had the courage to approach me with questions or with
things that they could see being done a bit differently, or them asking for materials in a different way,
(22:19):
because that has put it on my radar to consider again, okay, in response to this need.
So I'd say it started out as more just open and responsive to questions or issues that students were bringing to me, and that over time,
it's it's just become I try to be more proactive, uh, instead of responsive in the moment, to be proactive in how I'm designing the course.
(22:43):
They respond. How do the students respond? Well, I think that they are now finding different routes to be able to show their learning,
to be able to engage with assignments in ways that are really impactful and effective for them, instead of it just being work that needs to get done.
It's they're engaging, I think, more authentically in the work,
(23:06):
and they're having these avenues without trying to reduce some of the anxiety and
the stress around just certain kinds of assessment and certain kinds of teaching.
So just I don't mean to interrupt you there, but just thinking on that point, what would you say to faculty that are thinking,
you know, I would like to integrate UDL more meaningfully in my course design?
(23:29):
You started talking about assessments right off the bat, right? What are some things that faculty can do to get started on this journey?
Yeah. Great question.
I'm trying to think back to when I started and also things that I think about now all the time is am I providing as I'm developing a course,
am I providing enough diversity in the ways that I am inviting students to show their knowledge?
(23:56):
I can and I do think that for me, that starts at the critical question.
Yeah. At the at the phase of designing it, am I giving them opportunity to verbally show me that their engagement with the
material or in writing or in another modality through like demonstrating a technique?
I also because a number of my courses are quite hands on and applicable,
(24:20):
I also recognize that performance anxiety is quite high for some students, and these are courses that are very workshopping, demonstration based.
How do how do I also provide space for students who struggle with sharing in large groups of people their knowledge?
And so I, I have approached more of this, the think pair share model,
(24:45):
right where they can take a moment to think about themselves and smaller spaces more,
maybe less intimidating, and then open it up to larger group class discussion.
For those who really do appreciate that, that going back and forth, asking questions or answering questions in front of the whole class,
and even for those who don't feel comfortable doing that, I can still see.
(25:07):
I as I walk around, as we're engaging in classroom discussion,
even those who don't want to share in front of the whole class are still engaging and like the 1 to 1 conversations with their peers.
And I'm able to see that they are engaging with the material.
So yeah, I'd say in terms of recommendations for how to do this,
(25:28):
I think just being open and humble as an instructor to to hear feedback from students around
what is effective for them in terms of teaching approaches and in terms of assessment.
I know in some of my courses, instead of doing one and an exam, it's like smaller quizzes throughout.
There are lower stress quizzes.
(25:49):
Yeah. and then in some of the other courses, there's flexibility in, how they choose to hand in some written assignments.
I like to be really clear with. grading, my grading schemata, but I also try and buffer and a lot of flexibility,
because I think having clarity in terms of what my expectations are also reduces some of the confusion or the uncertainty for students,
(26:17):
but the way that they actually meet those requirements, there can be some flexibility around that,
as long as they are addressing those points that are outlined.
And in the main learning of the assignment, it's clear your students, appreciate that for sure.
It's funny because for many years now, I have been struck by how surprised students are that professors care.
(26:38):
Right. And that comes through in the letter. You know, they had this wonderful educational experience and felt really
heard and could really demonstrate their learning and share their joy in that with you as well.
but students are often surprised by that and this really comes through in your package.
(27:02):
where do you think this impression comes from.
Right. Like, I get this over and over again.
The surprise that you know that a professor cares and, of course come to my office and of course, let's talk about it.
And yeah, for sure, there can be some flexibility and we can think our way through that.
Right? I think they're coming to us with these preconceived notions that we then have to kind of, you know, work them out of.
(27:26):
I think so. I think that as human beings and as students, I know I also have my own experiences of
academia and experiencing a lot of support in some cases and also feeling a lot of anxiety and fear in other cases.
And we all have our previous experiences, I think, with, people who are
(27:50):
perhaps we feel they have more authority or people who have more, power over us.
And I think that those power dynamics are very existent in academia and in health care systems.
There are these hierarchies that we experience.
And often, you know, when I talk with students, I've had a number of students tell me that I have trouble talking with instructors,
(28:15):
or I have trouble talking with anyone who's trying to break down that anxiety.
Yeah, that's a how do we do that?
Other times, yeah. But they're telling me and I think that's a great first step, right.
That they that they felt brave and safe enough to tell me and also that that it makes me approach the
(28:38):
work more with an understanding that students are here with varying layers of previous life experiences,
previous relational experiences with, with instructors or with faculty and, you know, in therapy work,
we often try to adopt this more of this trauma approach lens to work and realizing that human beings, we have layers of life experiences and traumas.
(29:05):
And I think that recognizing that students do, too, helps me to be more compassionate and empathetic.
And also, it makes me realize that the power dynamics are inherent.
How can I actually try to minimize that as much as I can in the classroom?
So yeah, what signals. Yeah. You send out. Right. Exactly.
(29:27):
Your course outline, you know, in what you're doing in class.
And I think part of that is, of course, the students come and the professor is often seen as the expert in the field.
I would say that there's a lot of clinical experience here,
but if I can model to them that I'm continuing to grow too, I'm by no means the expert in this.
But I can share with you what I've learned and I will continue learning with you.
(29:52):
It can reduce some of, I think, that power dynamic and that um,
and approachability and realize that, okay, we can learn together, we can problem solve together.
And let me model for you. Let me share with you. Yeah, some of the incredible clinical work that I've been able to be a part of.
But let me also share with you some of like the messy and the things that didn't go as I had expected.
(30:15):
And this is what really had me pondering, you know, what on earth am I doing?
And to actually show myself as being human and needing to sort through clinical issues that have stumped me even after, you know,
this decade and a half of clinical experience, that there's still there's still learning and there's still openness to grow.
(30:37):
So I think by trying to balance and reduce some of the seeing, being seen as the unapproachable expert to being the, oh,
the lifelong open learner who doesn't have it all figured out but can draw on a lot of clinical experience and theory and in clinical practice,
and share that learning with students
(30:58):
So you're also learning in the classroom. We are.
Also, you know, learning in the classroom constantly. So what risks have you taken in the classroom in terms of your, teaching practice?
Are there some that paid off and some that didn't?
Yes and yes.
(31:19):
I think that that probably for the most part taking risks has often paid off.
Well, because again, I'm trying to model that. Maybe we'll try something out and see how it goes.
This is how I might approach something. Or sometimes I might try like let's workshop this kind of clinical scenario.
And sometimes in the middle of it I get stumped.
(31:39):
I'm like, oh, this is you know, you're seeing your instructor as someone who doesn't have it all figured out, and the students actually love that.
And there have been times where I shared, an audio clip of a lyric improvization I was doing with a client, and I was singing some questions.
(31:59):
He was singing back to me, and it became this beautiful musical dialog.
And afterwards, like the students were very impacted.
And we have a bit of a debriefing where they can ask questions.
And one of the students was like, well, that was beautiful, but I could never do anything like that.
And it was one of these moments where as an instructor, I was like, oh, that was it was too much or I didn't.
(32:24):
The intent was not to share it in a way that then made it seem unattainable or unachievable.
And so that also reminded me. So following that experience, it made me realize that, okay,
we need to actually I need to do some time workshopping this kind of technique or talking about all the things
that that were going through my mind as I was just in the experience with the client so that it didn't feel like
(32:50):
an experience that then didn't land, or that the students felt like there was no way they could do that.
Because ultimately, my role is trying to help them figure out how they could do something similar.
That you made sense. Yeah. See you as mentor.
So how do we make teaching sustainable for ourselves and in your field?
(33:11):
You know, the pressures are very immediate. Right.
So what are the kinds of things that you can do or that you do to make, you know,
to keep yourself rejuvenated and energetic and joyful for teaching, right.
Yeah. These weighty things. Sure. Difficulties. Yes.
I feel like that's a unique journey for each of us.
(33:33):
And doing the education piece and the clinical work piece,
it is really trying to find that optimal work life balance, which looks different for each of us.
And that's something that I talk about with my students too, and my interns is, you know, really checking in with yourself.
I check in with myself all the time as different, like life needs family, caregiving needs change in different seasons.
(34:00):
And I'm grateful to have the opportunity that to teach as part of that.
And I love the teaching in a lot of ways. It's nourishing and energizing for me.
And I realized that I need to do it in balance. So actually being part time contract teaching faculty does give me more flexibility and
freedom that feels like the right balance for me right now in this season of life,
(34:25):
because it's inspiring to work with students.
I feel like by teaching, it's making me think a lot about what I do and responding to students and interns.
Questions about why I made that clinical decision causes me to really reflect on my work in a way that that's important and helpful for me.
And at the same time, I also know that the teaching, the the weight of,
(34:50):
of the work and of supporting students in their learning needs to be balanced with my own self-care and my own,
doing the things and being with the people that nourish my heart and my mind,
and being intentional about making time for that is really important, at least for me.
I think for many of us. But again, the path looks different and if we can, I think,
(35:12):
allow ourselves to tune into what is it that my mind, my heart, my being need for optimal balance?
That's really what what sustains us in the work is tapping into that balance and actually being quite intentional about that.
Indeed. So what is next on the horizon for you in terms of your teaching?
(35:34):
Yeah, I think that continuing to work with students, I may not have shared this with you before,
but I am actually in the process of doing my PhD as well.
So yes. So just adding another role there.
When do you find time for that? Yeah, there's a lot there.
But at the same time I'm excited about this new chapter too.
(35:57):
And I think that motivation of continuing to work with students and lots of reflection
Yeah. So if you've got all this conceptual work that you're doing in your PhD and you've got your clinical practice and then you've got your teaching.
Yeah. For me it feels like it's a nice mixture of using like different parts of who I am.
(36:23):
And they're all authentic parts of who I am. And yet there's also, I think, speaks to my desire to keep growing and learning new skills.
The fact that I'm so excited about research methods is new for me and in my life,
and I think it's because I've found a topic that I'm very passionate about, which stemmed from my clinical work.
(36:44):
and so now the prospect of learning how to.
create robust research projects and, write, research articles.
I feel like that is it's going to be growing and flexing a skill set that I'm
excited about venturing into and also supporting students as they do more research.
(37:07):
So that is really what's on the horizon, and I'm excited for what's next,
to keep connected with the students in the classroom, but also in the clinical work.
And now also hopefully into this branch of doing research.
I feel and I hope will be a really nice combination and will further inform the way that I teach this combination of theory and practice.
(37:32):
Thank you so much for joining me here today to talk about your teaching practice, and we wish you all the best with your PhD studies.
My thanks to Sara Klinck for joining me today, and I hope you will join me for more conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
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