November 1, 2024 • 45 mins
Simona Pruteanu from Laurier's Languages and Literatures department and recipient of the 2024 Excellence in Internationalization Award, shares her passion for creating a multicultural and inclusive curriculum that incorporates guest speakers, creative assessments like storytelling and comic book creation, and career-integrated learning opportunities. She discusses how teaching entirely in French helps students build linguistic confidence and how the pandemic reshaped student engagement in the classroom. Simona reflects on the impact of technology on language learning, the effects generative AI tools are having on language education, and why technology cannot replace the interpersonal aspect of language learning.
Laurier’s Donald F. Morgenson Awards for Teaching Excellence honour those who, through their commitment to exemplary teaching, have made significant contributions to the educational experience of Laurier students. Learn more about award-winning teaching at Laurier: https://bit.ly/award-winning-faculty
Explore more from the Teaching Excellence and Innovation Team at Wilfrid Laurier University.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Laurier's Teaching Excellence Conversation series.
I'm Deborah Van Nijnatten academic director of teaching excellence and innovation at Wilfrid Laurier University.
And today I'm with Simona Pruteanu from the Department of Languages and Literatures,
who received the 2024 Excellence in Internationalization Award.
(00:22):
Simona is a champion of the internationalization at home ethos,
bringing global cultures and experiences into her classroom through her innovative teaching practices.
She integrates complex themes from French speaking regions across Europe,
Africa and Asia and enriches her courses with guest speakers who provide first hand insights into diverse cultural realities.
(00:50):
Simona engages students with creative assessments such as role plays, storytelling,
and comic book creation, and promotes a dynamic learning environment that values creativity and play.
Her approach not only deepens students understanding of content,
but fosters essential skills and intercultural competencies, and I'm so excited to talk to her today.
(01:35):
Simona, thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure to have you.
Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here. So I'm going to jump right in here and ask you about teaching students French,
which, you know, I was also a second language student in my undergrad
and so reading your dossier brought back a lot of memories for me.
(01:55):
But one of the things that I was always interested in is how you kind of balance the cognitive load of learning a subject in another language,
because it's not just that you're teaching students French,
you're also teaching them culture and history and, you know, all of these other things in French,
(02:16):
right? So I wonder if you could just maybe talk about that for a bit.
Yeah. Great first question and I hope the memories were pleasant. [Debora] Yeah oh yeah they are, [Simona] As you were reading through my dossier.
I remember thinking it was very hard but yes.
Yeah and I, think that for most of our students, if they don't come thinking it's a picnic and they but they
[Debora] That's a good thing, yeah. [Simona] I think they're very conscious of what they've chosen, we're lucky
(02:39):
to have that because
I'm thinking now and my answers are going to come from students evaluations or comments of the students through the years,
not just for me, because I can not interpret necessarily their point of view.
I remember reading through a student comment that was saying, about how their level of, confidence increased when
(03:06):
instructors throughout their schooling kept teaching just in the target language because they felt they were doing more progress.
And they said they felt that if the instructor used too much English or resorted to some English translation,
their level of confidence would also go down
and that learning a second language and doing things in the second language is hard
(03:31):
but also when you achieve it, when you realize, yes, I can do this, I understand I'm getting better.
Also gave this particular student such a sense of, I think they put it, worth, self-worth and confidence that served me well through,
I suppose it was an alumni, because they were talking also about how that served them well in life and job afterwards,
(03:52):
so it might have been a comment from our cyclical review this year from our alumni.
Right. and it resonated, it struck me,
and they're not the only ones. I remember also every, probably, every fall, every beginning students are a bit stressed.
They come and there's been a break, maybe some of them have been out of school and they haven't practiced their French since April and
(04:15):
all of a sudden they feel overwhelmed and they start saying, oh so it's because,
my teacher in high school, or I was in this French school of French immersion,
but the teacher actually did not use a lot of French, so they themselves pick up sort of on that. Yeah. And then... And know that that was important.
That that's important that we do,
(04:36):
we'll try I'll try to segment obviously content they won't get as long readings probably in my culture course
or literature course in the beginning as they would get maybe in your course or in English literature
course, it won't be a 50 page article from the start.
I can segment that to help have frequent check ins, but it has to be, You lead them in, in the language,
(04:59):
in the instructional target language and reassure them that it will
they don't have to understand 100% now this week, or maybe not even in the second week of classes.
They're here to progress and they're to trust us,
they're in the right level, and what we give them is the appropriate amount for them.
Yeah, now I'm going to pick up on something you said about, you know,
(05:22):
them not having as much confidence because they feel like perhaps they haven't spoken French since April right, and then September,
but what about the impact of the pandemic? Because, you know, we hear from high school students that they didn't get, you know,
those in French immersion, those in core French, those in extended French.
They didn't get the same practice right, that in class, back and forth, the dialog, the instructor constantly speaking in French.
(05:48):
Have you noticed a difference pre and post pandemic in terms of how you need to bring them on that pathway to, you know, full French?
Oh yes. In instruction, yes. We did. We all did.
I suppose you did.
and especially we saw it a bit during the even during our Zoom years of instruction, even with students whom we had up until the pandemic,
(06:13):
we would have had in our classes, but behaving sort of differently when we went online because they were in different situations,
the camera was allowed to be off. You couldn't pull a student out from that dark square if they didn't want to show,
you only had a few a handful of students showing and replying.
(06:33):
I remember feeling, I'm talking to a black screen. This is going nowhere.
Yes, I remember that.
And then we came in 2022 fall, because that was our first full academic year when we came back to classes and for a full year and.
It was a bit soul crushing, if I can say. I didn't expect it to be all very easy and back to normal, but that I found it hard in my classes.
(06:58):
I remember my colleagues because we, we commiserated in the hallways,
we need each other more.
My husband said that I've never come home looking so defeated in the entire time he has known me, because they they do not want to speak.
They were reluctant to speaking to me in class, answering questions.
They were reluctant to speaking to each other. There were still masks.
(07:20):
Some people you know. How did you respond to that, as an instructor,
what a huge challenge. Uh, well, how do you,
put up your mask, your smile, you're brave and you keep trying.
And I know it's funny that I get probably, I see it in my evaluation that
I may have acquired this reputation of putting people on the spot, which I do not like
(07:40):
as a, as a phrase, I don't feel, a feeling
putting on the spot for me is to put somebody when they've done something bad, accusing them, Yeah, or in front of guns.
A very difficult decision. What I like is that I know it's in there and they just need a little bit of nudge and help.
And I always say, to your class time, take advantage.
So I will not just let the only 2, 3 students who are always hand up, Yeah, right. And down. And they want to answer.
(08:06):
I want the others to have that time to to practice, and I know they feel overwhelmed,
they feel shy, every student always feels that the other knows better, understood better than them, which is not always the case.
Yeah. Not true, they just compare themselves. So I go and nudge people,
and if you don't want to, or if you really cannot, it's not a big deal,
(08:27):
we'll go on to someone else, will help, but please try, so, again to go to a an evaluation of somebody who put it this winter in my French 251
the advanced language course, and what I like is that she mediated classes so everyone got a chance to participate.
It's true that she puts people, she calls on people
I think it was and I don't absolutely like these, but, and it was capital B U T
(08:49):
[Debora] Yeah, BUT! [Simona] The person who typed it, must have had fun.
But if she hadn't done that, I would have probably not participated as much,
so that was a good thing in the end. [Debora] Languages are special that way. Yeah. Right?
You have to be able to practice the language.
It's a paradox otherwise to say I'm afraid of speaking,
it's okay but I'm shy with the oral. Otherwise it won't happen.
(09:12):
And I did a lot of group work table discussion for that when I saw that they weren't
If they were getting shy, so create a smaller group, create a smaller group, what's intimidating, give the question and had somebody, their role,
the requirement was try to speak in French around the table, not in English.
Come to the answer then the person who just wanted to be the group speaker would raise their hand bring
(09:36):
but I would always ask another question from there.
Now that the answer was there out in the open, if they wanted to add something or what they brought to the discussion, [Debora] Yeah, and build that confidence, [Simona] Build that confidence.
So it's not only that you're teaching students in French, subjects in French.
(09:58):
Or that it's post-pandemic and you're trying to build that confidence again.
You're also addressing in your classes some very weighty topics, right.
Colonialism. Racism. How do you do that?
In a language class? Right? So these are these are very challenging.
(10:18):
These are more in my culture, like, cause I also teach the Francophone culture course.
I teach the literature courses, my courses that are on Francophone topics.
So. [Debora] But I'm assuming those are some of the same students, that are trying to work on their French, and then they are doing...
And they are, as I said, hard topics. And while I don't have a list, probably necessarily to say these are my steps,
(10:43):
I, as I would say first and foremost, as respectfully and humbly as I can, because.
it is obvious that I'm not one of those people that were afflicted by that situation, and I was never in a marginalized, position myself.
I'm a very lucky immigrant who came here, you know, 21 years ago,
(11:06):
and my life was far better and easier than some of the characters or people that I portray
so I have to pay attention. But it's something that I'm very passionate about, and I want to bring it to my students.
And some of them have deeper connections that I might have with those, those situation
so again, I would have probably to go back to somebody who wrote a letter for me.
(11:28):
very touching letter for the, for the dossier,
and they said, according to their testimonial, that I always made a human connection with the material taught.
Well, I'm glad I did. Somehow I always try to contextualize that because, you know, there's facts, there's the geography,
but it's one thing to put it in a history class, maybe as, so the sovereign powers decided to divide Africa,
(11:52):
and, you know, it has the Congress of Berlin 1850. And it's another thing for me, maybe to bring some experts, excerpts from some writings,
or just to simply explain that while they did that, they divided a river and that you had two Congos under two different colonial powers.
but basically there were they used to be the same people, the same village, and now they're not. [Debora] And unilaterally drew a line.
(12:16):
[Simona] yeah, and how that changed people's lives.
[Debora] Yeah, and that human connection, I think, you know, one of the things that comes through in your dossier, as you said, is that,
you know, making the human connection helps keep the students engaged in these, you know, what are pretty challenging topics.
And and if I may add something, there is, uh, while I always say to students in all my classes,
(12:39):
there isn't the right or wrong answer, maybe, just maybe in grammar,
but even then, you know, there are many exceptions. [Debora] Right.
There is, there are probably there is one topic where where I would not sit around and waffle if it was for better or for worse,
so I will make it clear in the beginning of the year about that colonization was a wrong, reprehensible fact.
(13:04):
We have to talk about it now and we have to talk about racism.
We will not sit there and question whether there were also some good positive aspects to, you know, hospitals being built and those people.
So that is a no, for me.
[Debora] And how did the students react to that? [Simona] Mostly they seem to agree with me,
I don't know if there are some who do not, but I think that is it's a slippery slope,
(13:30):
especially with everything that happens in the news, in the media these days,
there are so many. So to me, I don't know if people would disagree, but it's some things are only as they are.
The truth is the truth. Colonization was wrong, fact.
Racism is wrong. Discrimination.
We can talk about different views respectfully, but there are some things on which I suppose we humanly, [Debora] That's the foundation for ethical discussion. [Simona] universally, agree for ethics.
(13:58):
Yeah, yeah, and you note, that sort of in the example that you gave, you know, where they,
the colonial powers unilaterally drove drew lines all over Africa, even if it
divided up communities, families, right.
Uh, people who, who were connected to networks.
(14:19):
That's one way in which you make sure that marginalized voices get into your courses.
How else do you do that?
Because you, you do a whole bunch of different things in order to really broaden the perspectives that students get on these topics.
Well, we, uh, well I am also very lucky living in this time and day where I have access to so many resources
(14:41):
so in uh, not just in literature courses where I have the novels and I have living authors,
and they're writing their biographies and autobiographies and their own experiences as colonized people
and we have, but, we also have even, access to footage from, you know, the Colonial Exhibition in 1931.
(15:02):
It's going to be 100 years soon where I can show students,
what it was in 1931 where a French person would go pay some money to go see the splendour of the Empire, which included people.
People from the those, colonized countries sitting as artifacts and exhibits in different pavilions in was
(15:25):
the African pavilion, the Vietnamese - the Indo-China - Pavilion, cause they were not yet called as Vietnam.
So, always looking for, um, I'm, I was lucky to count with guest speakers,
wonderful guest speakers, either scholars or other people from the community who work in this field of,
(15:45):
multicultural and diversity, like guest speakers from Bring on the Sunshine and or Doctor Edwin Laryea, who is a scholar, but also-- [Debora] Students loved that.
Oh, they love, you're right they, we had to welcome him a second time by popular demand, because the first time it wasn't enough,
in the session, they had so many questions and they were so impressed.
(16:06):
Some of them are also, I suppose, shocked, maybe having heard for the first time, a story of a discrimination in Canada when he first arrived.
[Debora] Well most Canadians have a hard time thinking that we're above that. [Simona] And how he dealt with it, but it inspired students.
I remember one student's comment after that saying that it helped them so much because they were the only racialized child living in a rural,
(16:29):
remote community in Canada, and they were scared almost about coming to university and what the other colleagues would say
and they felt better listening to Doctor Laryea and I'm sure that also, university didn't turn out to be such a terrible place after all.
So the real story, the real facts, the connection.
(16:49):
Students always emphasize that it's one thing to learn from stories, from textbooks.
I think somebody said, and one thing to listen to someone having having lived through that real life experiences.
But, you know, these are things that you lead students through, right?
And so student discussion and student led activities are really key in terms of your classes.
(17:11):
One of the wonderful things that you do, which I really enjoyed, was the La Francophonie exercise,
where students in groups think about, you know, how do they fit into or identify with La Francophonie.
So I wonder if you could talk about because I think it's a great project. Yeah.
And I'm a bit disappointed that it took me so many years to come up with it.
(17:36):
I did it in 2023.[Debora] It was baking, it was baking.
Yeah, in 2023 I gave this assignment in French 238 because it's,
one of the courses for which we usually have trouble finding a community service, learning experience or a partner.
We always have a bit of trouble finding something that works with a course.
(17:57):
The course is a 100 students cap enrollment, so it's hard to find placement for them in all the [Debora] It's obviously popular.
It's a it's a popular course. It uh, it also cycled every two years.
I will not just keep it like that but I decided all right let's work.
They will do something like service and then think of themselves in the community.
Kitchener-Waterloo is a francophone, has a francophone association.
(18:20):
We have a francophone community and think, how do they, uh, define themselves and their francophone identity?
and, it was surprising to see that first, even if they're French learners and they learn French and they were born in Canada,
which is bilingual country, at least officially, they did not think of themselves.
They did not perceive of themselves as francophone well, speak French
(18:43):
and take French classes, [Debora] So even even students who had gone through French immersion.
No, they did not think because they had English parents or were raised in Ontario.
But I know you are a francophone.[Debora] or sometimes spoke a third language
You're Polish Canadian as you would like to say, but and it's not just those countries that,
France necessarily colonized and that I still speak it as an official language or not.
(19:07):
So they had to build this new identity about what it means to be francophone.
How do they fit in it? And then they talked about some of the challenges.
And that was kind of sad to read for me to say that they first, that they did not identify with, second, that they felt a bit,
what it's called like it was called term by a researcher, insecurity, linguistic insecurity and security.
(19:33):
[Debora] The Imposter syndrome Right. [Simona] So they they don't.
Yeah. Sort of. And they felt that when they travel, they said when they went to Quebec or France,
they felt that they couldn't or if they stammered a bit that the waiter or the person in front of them would switch to English.
[Debora] Of course, it's the ultimate sort of setback when you realize that your language is not even good enough for.
(19:57):
Yeah, then that create a sort of complex of inferiority that would then trickle into their course work and course performance,
because they don't want that to repeat in the classroom.
But so very interesting reading.
And they worked so well in groups and they did them like they looked like mini newsletters, pictures, colors, formats.
(20:20):
Uh, some of them interviewed each other. Some of them kept their answer anonymous or some of them actually gave.
This is me saying what happened.
I would say in the average first most of them left to like, yeah, now I think, I do think I consider myself as a francophone and how I fit into so.
Bit of a silver lining. You have to hold the testimonials.
(20:42):
And that was a wonderful project. And actually, I don't know why it took me until 2023 to give it, but [Debora] yeah, but that's metacognition, right?
So these students are, you know, actively reflecting on their own learning and thinking about.
And I learned so much about them otherwise I wouldn't have known. [Debora] That's right.
So also creating the student community. Or deepening the student community.
(21:03):
And what does a francophone culture course in the end mean.
Taking it. [Debora] So I'm going to just jump right off that and talk about your comic book project.
Because that's another right. That's another [Simona] 370 course.
[Debora] That's wonderful. So just tell us I didn't create it. It was in the books.
It was called Graphic Novels in Media. And I took it. And because my area of expertise is, you know, francophone literature.
(21:29):
So I adapted to that comic books, graphic novels by francophone authors.
And, I wanted most of my courses are run with the CSL experiential learning component because it's amazing.
I'm sure we're going to come back to it. And yes, and it's worth the work.
So why not then pairing our group, groups of four students paired with a fabulous,
(21:53):
teacher, French professor in the community who accepted to take them on.
[Debora] Yeah Let's talk about [Simona] and lead them on. So the students have to create a short comic or bande dessinée in French for the needs of that specific professor.
So we had professors from the francophone schools, but or just core French, but, different classes [Debora] so just teachers from Waterloo Region.
(22:16):
From the region. Yeah. Which the CSL office helped me.
Fine. Yes, sure. Shannon. Rebecca, wonderful, Lisa Jarvis
They find the partners, the email them, they said yes.
And then they. It's the responsibility of the student to start meeting.
They meet usually online because they're busy and [Debora] how many students in the class? [Simon]so that's capped at 40
(22:39):
I don't remember if the last time it was full [Debora] So that's like ten groups.
[Simona] That's why there [Debora] that is quite an undertaking. Yes. Yeah.
And they go and the teacher themselves will say, well, I'm working on this this semester.
So they have to adapt that better. But it also has to do with francophone and French.
I don't want them to create a French comic book on geography.
(23:02):
It has to stay within what we do with do and the meanings of the, of the course may be racism, diversity, bullying in school,
something similar if it can't be necessarily on Africa or Morocco.
And not only do they create the story and they do the the whole design, but I also because I'm a teacher myself,
(23:24):
I said, what good is a great resource if then you have to you know, we have to think how are you going to exploit it.
And then that takes us hours of work. So then my students have to come up with what's called the pedagogic.
It's the they have to put together at least 5 or 6 exercises. [Debora] So that's the application [Simona] That's the application to exploit the,
the story that they've created, be there. And they have to be a variety of exercises, content, the open questions on the grammar, on the language,
(23:50):
the professors, themselves might say which grammar points they want reviewed, right?
If depending when they are in the term. And then we go for some stages of correction.
They work once in class with me, then it's a first draft they send and I give pointers.
It goes to their partners. The partners say if they're happy or not, we come back,
we work on a second version and then a final version, and it's usually submitted by the the end of term.
(24:16):
And their response was quite positive.[Debora] So the teachers were happy [Simona] The teachers were happy last semester having that in class to exploit.
Apparently their younger students were shocked that somebody would write a beh-deh for them for their own purposes.
That was nice to hear. [Debora] And was this, public or secondary school exercises.
So mostly they're public. And it depends because, you know, we take our partners wherever they're available.
(24:41):
So some of them worked with fifth graders, sixth grader for in their audience targets.
Some of them had actually 11th or 12th grade advanced French immersion.
So yeah, that's that's challenging because it doesn't make it necessarily easier for those who have for the fifth grade or sixth grade,
because you had to adapt the language and the story to their stage of learning.
(25:03):
Oh that's wonderful. And they get pédagogique, so again the students loved it.
And they all say, yes, it's a bit of work. It's group work.
Connecting with our professor, with our partner, finding the time slots.
Of course nothing comes easy, but in the end they were happy and somebody said, I,
I'm pretty confident that I can do my own video exercises in kids when I'm
(25:24):
going to become a teacher because they are going to go to teachers college.
Well, maybe that's a good, uh, segue into thinking about because you also do, in addition to all of the other things you're doing,
you do career integrated learning, and I think it's your fourth year course.
That's based on Laurier's competency framework. So you talk a little bit about that.
Because that's also you know, you're preparing students for what comes next.
(25:47):
So that was last winter 2023. Again that's my literature for fourth year francophone literature course.
And again it's due to its topical and thematic. It's kind of hard to find community application.
Or I can always count on the benevolence of a lovely colleague who might do a conference on an author, but not always.
So then I thought, well, you know, they're graduating. It doesn't have necessarily to do with francophone literature,
(26:11):
but it would be good to see what do we get out of a francophone literature course that we have?
And how does it prepare us for, uh, our jobs and our futures?
Let them reflect.
So Lydia Mensah came to the class, and the first session, she asked them what they expected and what will the course bring to them.
And it was part funny, part shocking, because all of them, [Debora] They're like this isn't going to help [Simona] even those who are good students, and usually like the course, I'm sure it's going to be nice.
(26:39):
I'm going to read some books, but in terms of skills, like none, it's a literature course.
You know, so then Lydia said no.
So because they are not aware of the competency framework and even if they were,
even if we were to email it to them, I guess it doesn't make sense out of context.
[Debora]That's right. [Simona] And they're always quick to say yes language is useful because you learn language, but literature and culture is a bit of a fill up.
(27:04):
They're nice courses, we do stuff. But in terms of practical skills, yeah, I don't see how.
So it was an eye opener and something that yes, I want to integrate in more of my courses.
She gave them the competencies framework and they were tasked to keep a log all through the semester.
What skills from that frame did they acquire and what particular assignment in that class?
(27:29):
And at the end of the term, she came for the second session and gave them a job ad.
And we did mock interviews. And it wasn't the teaching job had nothing to do with languages.
I don't remember what it was, but it was something in another field,
and the students had to draw on their experience from this class, and they realized that they did.
Learn or develop improved time management skills, communication skills, or talking with problem solving when working with the group.
(27:57):
Critical reflection when doing a piece of an essay and this and that.
Oh. You know, literature course.
Yes. And they had to write their critical reflections in English just to submit them to the CSL
and I had access to them and it was gratifying to-- [Debora] To see the change. [Simona] To see the change.
[Debora] And you look back at your notes from the, oh, [Simona] From the first session was like, well, I like literature courses.
(28:21):
I don't think I gain any skills from them except for reading.
Yes, we read, that's all we do. We read and we talk. [Debora] Oh, I love that [Simona] And there is so much more.
So another really important aspect of your teaching is, you know, what we call internationalization at home.
Right. So that's where you're really providing unique opportunities for students in your
(28:42):
classes to really immerse themselves in French language and culture here in Waterloo,
even though you might be talking about other parts of the world, Africa, as you said, Morocco
You know, even Quebec, right? which in many ways seems far from Waterloo, right?
(29:03):
So maybe you can talk a little bit about your internationalization at home,
which, you know, especially during the pandemic when nobody could go anywhere.
What a wonderful way to get students to broaden their horizons.
As soon as you go into a second language course or third language course,
you know where you are, the French call it dépaysé, they, I don't know how to translate it in English
(29:25):
You're out of your element. You're out of your depth. You're no longer home.
Language is culture. They go hand in hand.
And, yes, it's a bit of a, may sound a bit cliche, but is traveling without actually traveling.
We do that by looking into the different resources aspects, seeing [Debora] Guest speakers. [Simona] Guest speakers make it also so more vivid.
(29:49):
But we hope also that it will become even sort of closer than that,
because in the department, we just, uh, we've created the, Co-op program.
Right? Majors in French, which is I've never had it. It will be starting this year.
So we hope that through this Co-op we might be able to have virtual exchanges or even virtual placements for those majors.
(30:14):
So to even add to this into internationalization.
Yes, going abroad without going abroad. But a lot of our students, I would say obviously not through the pandemic, but
most of our students majors or even those who take an options like to go to Quebec.
The Explore program is huge. We have Laurier International, and most of our students usually go for a semester or even a full year.
(30:39):
[Debora] So I was going to ask about that. Is it the case that you've got students who, you know, you're doing your internationalization at home,
you're you know, you're pulling in guest speakers. You had members of a conference on La Francophonie.
Yes. The writer [Debora] Came in. [Simona] Yes, came too. It was pretty big.
You may have seen the book it just came out with the book is older and we were lucky because it was on Zoom,
(31:02):
otherwise she would have never had time in her agenda to come to my class.
But I had her on Zoom, and Maryam Madjidi, who is another, author, and me and my colleague Dervila Cooke from Ireland,
we organized that panel on Zoom, and I was able to bring my students to attend,
and we were studying Rue, and I know some of them, for them, it was the novel they most loved and still love to this time.
(31:26):
And having the chance to listen to the author was, and to me, was amazing.
Yeah. And but also, you know, just interested in how that, that makes them then think, yes, I should go abroad.
Oh, yes. [Debora] I think its the softer, as you said, the softer, entree into internationalization.
But then thinking I want to do this [Simona] You had to
(31:47):
pick up the language and you've taken some culture class and you're inspired and think, I would like to go see for myself.
Right. It's different than the classroom. And we're also lucky to have our own courses.
Travel courses, the French 288, which took them to Marseilles, I think last time with Nathalie Freidel.
SP288, which goes to Salamanca. [Debora] I would like to take those courses!
I know, me too. I can't leave too much summers. I'm stuck home.
(32:11):
And this year was a Quebec course in Montreal taught by Doctor Reid.
And they usually not all of them, but most of our students, I would say, will take at least a semester abroad with the partners, universities.
One of the things that I have found challenging as a languages major myself, but also being very supportive of French immersion and extended French,
(32:36):
and my children do it as well. And you know, is is
demonstrating the, career related or career necessary nature of language training, right,
is convincing people this is a plus in terms of career, you know, how do you deal with that with your students?
(32:58):
You know, I really find that, you know, maybe outside of Laurier that there's a little bit of a, oh, really?
We're in Ontario. How useful is it? Right, and there's good data.
I always pull up the data for them, but, [Simona] you know, I know that if I know that from the Ontario University Fairs or the open houses where
we have a student was very keen and they know they want to do French or something,
(33:21):
and then you see the reluctant parent [Debora] And the parents are like really [Simona] Behind and them, they're like, what else can we do besides teaching?
There's a myriad of things besides teaching, and it is true that we get a large number who do come because they want to teach.
And for that, I would say so far in Ontario, the numbers are still good.
People with French still get jobs. There is still because it's an official language government official.
(33:45):
So most of our graduates were successful at getting jobs.
We have teaching panels, alumni panels, every semester where we invite students to share their experience.
One of them is on teaching, one of them is on non-teaching.
What did you do with a degree in languages,
if you didn't go into teaching and we've had wonderful speakers come in, one of them work for softwares with company.
(34:06):
Somebody is doing policy in French for the medical field. So but it takes it takes time even for the students.
And I've seen it with former students through time. The language may be easier to prove.
You will learn the language. Maybe you will get a job with, then the culture or going into other fields,
that it's the same thing we were talking about with the career integrated learning that they have acquired,
(34:28):
other skills like reflection, that they can put on their resumes.
Not that I can speak and write French, they can do so much more. [Debora] But they also have intercultural competencies.
I can. [Debora] This is, you know, 2024 Canada, right?
So these are critical skills [Simona] How do you how do you run a business without communication skills,
(34:49):
writing skills, some diplomacy skill, understanding the other person in front of you.
They come from a different culture. So that I think maybe we need to do a better job at marketing or somehow explaining.
But it takes time. And I've had lovely emails that came out after graduation from students who have gone,
(35:09):
a student who went to do law, in Ottawa, had taken some francophone and francophone literature
classes with me and wrote after five years that he now feels what he had learned in class
help him do what he's doing, because he was doing international law, I suppose,
he could piece it more than when you take the class, it made more sense five years later,
(35:33):
in his job, and he studied because he was taking law.
You also have to study what you like and what you think you're also good at.
Not always study what you think you should or is going to get you a job. [Debora] In order to make you money,
because things are volatile.
Yes. They're changing all the time. One of the big changes is transformative emergent technologies, generative AI.
(35:57):
Right. And so taking a little bit of a right turn here, but you know, what is language training like in an era of generative AI?
Because it does change the nature of the game.
I'm sure in lots of different ways I know. Yeah, we're still wondering, thinking about it.
[Debora] Yeah, well we all are. [Simona] and we'll see how we move forward. Absolutely. As you know, I love because [Debora]we know students are using it.
(36:23):
That's the reality. We know students are using it so [Simona] we know we have to talk about it.
Obviously for us, I'm sure for different disciplines has different challenges, but teaching languages, obviously it's a big, big, no.
I cannot say sure you can use AI for this translation because you're [Debora] You're not learning.
[Simona] And the AI is doing it and they're doing it quite well, I might add.
(36:44):
That's the frightening thing. Ten years ago, I could still make fun of Google Translate.
They've gotten a bit better, but not quite. Not to the point. I can still pull it,
and we can still show students because the AI still doesn't have
that human touch to translate the joke or a cultural reference.
It doesn't have the ethical or the emotion to think that some information may be sensitive and should be transferred, transmitted differently.
(37:12):
It translates still literally by patterns, and somehow it comes up with hilarious or offensive word by word translation.
So that's where you still pick it up, [Debora] or offensive.
Yes, because if you don't know what you said or how some expressions are from a language or what to a cultural society is acceptable.
Luckily,
we can still show students that human touch still has not been the AI can do maybe probably a solid mediocre word by word linear or even an essay.
(37:45):
But even as instructors, we are very good at picking up.
And instead of mathematical. And when it's mechanical and it's no good cheating yourself out of it because yes,
some people might say, but I have Duolingo, Babble,
I have my phone. Why bother
Have you actually put yourself in a real life situation where you will be in front of someone and I'll be like a right [Debora] hold on there [Simona] Je vous rien
(38:16):
Oh, look, my Wi-Fi is still spinning. I don't think it actually happens.
And if you're always going to do that, I mean, yes, you can practice 100 words per week or whatever and achieve stars.
I don't know what those apps do. It's not the same as you putting in the work.
And what's the point? They're still global, like they're still a global world out there.
(38:37):
We're supposed to be a global citizen, know more, meet more people.
Diversity, so, while yes, there is a challenge.
I'm confident that we'll understand more and the students will come to understand more about the how it helps and how it's not beneficial.
Yeah, well, and also how it just delivers, an inferior product.
(39:00):
Yeah. Right. And, you know, I really like that that harkens back to the beginning of our discussion.
You're not just teaching language, you're teaching culture. Sensitivity,
ethics, empathy, that that's not gonna be on the Google Translate or on the part of AI because,
it's funny how they can switch their answers to whatever you want them to do, because I have tried.
(39:22):
Right. You can say argue this and they will argue that. And then you say, well, that's not what I wanted anyway.
I will say, oh, I'm sorry. And then it switches which is completely and so.
But why do you know why? What's the meaning?
That's why I will start my 331 the translation course in fall, talking about the reason, approach, behind it, how will we study it and why?
(39:45):
I like paper dictionaries. [Debora] I like paper dictionaries too, [Simona] But more than words reference and something else.
Yeah. If you look back, I would say over your teaching career thus far, what's been the biggest change in your teaching practice?
Yes. And I told you I know why I waited until 2023 to give that assignment.
And I think what's mostly changed and for the better, I hope,
(40:08):
is embracing this experiential learning, community service and personal, more personalized approach,
because I came from a rigorous school, I come from Romania.
I came here just to do my master's and my PhD, and not to say that we was better or worse,
but it was vastly different, as I'm assuming it was even for you, your generation.
(40:30):
It was enforced content, next test,
exam, there were no student led discussions or creating comic books. No guides pédagogiques.
You were learning things, so you were tested on them.
So I did acquire a different style as I became a young teacher in Canada.
(40:51):
Professor.
But also in the beginning I probably was like, if it's not rigorous, you know, moderately difficult and staying on track [Debora] Then it's not good enough.
[Simona] And it's not fun, like I oh yes, free discussion, something maybe beginning and end of the term, but I have to teach the substance.
So when I first learned about, you know, community service learning or experiential learning,
(41:12):
where I went to workshops and people were doing field trips and things like that.
But how do you teach? How do you grade? How is that worth anything?
And then I realized it was so as I allowed myself to create such a sort of a personal it was a personal question in that assignment in 238.
But there was rigorousness, and the students researched and they gave identity definitions. [Debora] (41:32):
Integrating
And they did. And they applied what they had learned.
And it made more sense because it was personal to them, and it became less frightening for me to leave the reins a bit.
I mean, when integrating the student led discussion where I let them take charge of 30 minutes of the class,
(41:56):
what they supposed to lead the class into discussion into an interactive.
Whereas before I would have been like, well, I don't know, that's the only time.
So I think that was the greatest change to many benefits.
What's on the horizon now for your teaching? Where do you go next?
You've done so many different things in the past years, both pre-pandemic, during the pandemic, post pandemic, I guess improve on those.
(42:20):
We have new courses I would like to to work more collaboratively with,
colleagues from other disciplines, you know,
like maybe a colleague from history department could come and have a lecture in my francophone culture course,
because different perspectives enhance learning.
And I think it would also help students see how the different courses they take,
(42:42):
tying my French course with my history minor and whatever I do, I think I'm,
I feel terrible sometimes. I know very little about the people with the people around me do.
Yeah. We should more [Debora] It's because we're so wrapped up right in our [Simona] classes, our teaching
and we're so busy keep with the always
(43:03):
it's hard work, but it's so rewarding for us and the students to see yourself, experiential learning,
[Debora] Yeah, the Community Service Learning [Simona] To find find new ways and even maybe integrating virtually,
so I am excited we have this new,
path teach pathway to teaching. also new with the co-op leading to teaching.
So maybe we can do virtual exchanges, with other universities in the classes, in the language classes, in the francophone culture classes.
(43:33):
So I know there are challenges with, uh, time zones and, but maybe it can be done.
So things to explore from there to think I think it all comes to what the students want and need.
First and foremost, I realize, [Debora] Going from teaching content to teaching students [Simona] To what they need because there's generations,
(43:53):
I find change so fast that what you did two years ago may not be very applicable.
[Debora] Completely different needs. [Simona] So I cannot use most of the material from two years ago.
You just look at who they are in front of you and you pick it up from there. [Debora] They're complex human beings.
I wish that I had had you as my language teacher. [Simona] In my recent years.
(44:17):
Your students are obviously, you know, really appreciate your approach.
I have grown, so I know that, you know, it's been a journey for all of us.
and I'm very grateful and touched by everything good that's been happening lately.
Yes. Well, thank you so much for joining me here today. Thank you.
(44:37):
My thanks to Simona Prutenau for joining me today, and I hope you will join me for more conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
Welcome to Laurier's Teaching Excellence Conversation series.
I'm Deborah Van Nijnatten academic director of teaching excellence and innovation at Wilfrid Laurier University.
And today I'm with Simona Pruteanu from the Department of Languages and Literatures,
who received the 2024 Excellence in Internationalization Award.
(00:22):
Simona is a champion of the internationalization at home ethos,
bringing global cultures and experiences into her classroom through her innovative teaching practices.
She integrates complex themes from French speaking regions across Europe,
Africa and Asia and enriches her courses with guest speakers who provide first hand insights into diverse cultural realities.
(00:50):
Simona engages students with creative assessments such as role plays, storytelling,
and comic book creation, and promotes a dynamic learning environment that values creativity and play.
Her approach not only deepens students understanding of content,
but fosters essential skills and intercultural competencies, and I'm so excited to talk to her today.
(01:35):
Simona, thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure to have you.
Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here. So I'm going to jump right in here and ask you about teaching students French,
which, you know, I was also a second language student in my undergrad
and so reading your dossier brought back a lot of memories for me.
(01:55):
But one of the things that I was always interested in is how you kind of balance the cognitive load of learning a subject in another language,
because it's not just that you're teaching students French,
you're also teaching them culture and history and, you know, all of these other things in French,
(02:16):
right? So I wonder if you could just maybe talk about that for a bit.
Yeah. Great first question and I hope the memories were pleasant. [Debora] Yeah oh yeah they are, [Simona] As you were reading through my dossier.
I remember thinking it was very hard but yes.
Yeah and I, think that for most of our students, if they don't come thinking it's a picnic and they but they
[Debora] That's a good thing, yeah. [Simona] I think they're very conscious of what they've chosen, we're lucky
(02:39):
to have that because
I'm thinking now and my answers are going to come from students evaluations or comments of the students through the years,
not just for me, because I can not interpret necessarily their point of view.
I remember reading through a student comment that was saying, about how their level of, confidence increased when
(03:06):
instructors throughout their schooling kept teaching just in the target language because they felt they were doing more progress.
And they said they felt that if the instructor used too much English or resorted to some English translation,
their level of confidence would also go down
and that learning a second language and doing things in the second language is hard
(03:31):
but also when you achieve it, when you realize, yes, I can do this, I understand I'm getting better.
Also gave this particular student such a sense of, I think they put it, worth, self-worth and confidence that served me well through,
I suppose it was an alumni, because they were talking also about how that served them well in life and job afterwards,
(03:52):
so it might have been a comment from our cyclical review this year from our alumni.
Right. and it resonated, it struck me,
and they're not the only ones. I remember also every, probably, every fall, every beginning students are a bit stressed.
They come and there's been a break, maybe some of them have been out of school and they haven't practiced their French since April and
(04:15):
all of a sudden they feel overwhelmed and they start saying, oh so it's because,
my teacher in high school, or I was in this French school of French immersion,
but the teacher actually did not use a lot of French, so they themselves pick up sort of on that. Yeah. And then... And know that that was important.
That that's important that we do,
(04:36):
we'll try I'll try to segment obviously content they won't get as long readings probably in my culture course
or literature course in the beginning as they would get maybe in your course or in English literature
course, it won't be a 50 page article from the start.
I can segment that to help have frequent check ins, but it has to be, You lead them in, in the language,
(04:59):
in the instructional target language and reassure them that it will
they don't have to understand 100% now this week, or maybe not even in the second week of classes.
They're here to progress and they're to trust us,
they're in the right level, and what we give them is the appropriate amount for them.
Yeah, now I'm going to pick up on something you said about, you know,
(05:22):
them not having as much confidence because they feel like perhaps they haven't spoken French since April right, and then September,
but what about the impact of the pandemic? Because, you know, we hear from high school students that they didn't get, you know,
those in French immersion, those in core French, those in extended French.
They didn't get the same practice right, that in class, back and forth, the dialog, the instructor constantly speaking in French.
(05:48):
Have you noticed a difference pre and post pandemic in terms of how you need to bring them on that pathway to, you know, full French?
Oh yes. In instruction, yes. We did. We all did.
I suppose you did.
and especially we saw it a bit during the even during our Zoom years of instruction, even with students whom we had up until the pandemic,
(06:13):
we would have had in our classes, but behaving sort of differently when we went online because they were in different situations,
the camera was allowed to be off. You couldn't pull a student out from that dark square if they didn't want to show,
you only had a few a handful of students showing and replying.
(06:33):
I remember feeling, I'm talking to a black screen. This is going nowhere.
Yes, I remember that.
And then we came in 2022 fall, because that was our first full academic year when we came back to classes and for a full year and.
It was a bit soul crushing, if I can say. I didn't expect it to be all very easy and back to normal, but that I found it hard in my classes.
(06:58):
I remember my colleagues because we, we commiserated in the hallways,
we need each other more.
My husband said that I've never come home looking so defeated in the entire time he has known me, because they they do not want to speak.
They were reluctant to speaking to me in class, answering questions.
They were reluctant to speaking to each other. There were still masks.
(07:20):
Some people you know. How did you respond to that, as an instructor,
what a huge challenge. Uh, well, how do you,
put up your mask, your smile, you're brave and you keep trying.
And I know it's funny that I get probably, I see it in my evaluation that
I may have acquired this reputation of putting people on the spot, which I do not like
(07:40):
as a, as a phrase, I don't feel, a feeling
putting on the spot for me is to put somebody when they've done something bad, accusing them, Yeah, or in front of guns.
A very difficult decision. What I like is that I know it's in there and they just need a little bit of nudge and help.
And I always say, to your class time, take advantage.
So I will not just let the only 2, 3 students who are always hand up, Yeah, right. And down. And they want to answer.
(08:06):
I want the others to have that time to to practice, and I know they feel overwhelmed,
they feel shy, every student always feels that the other knows better, understood better than them, which is not always the case.
Yeah. Not true, they just compare themselves. So I go and nudge people,
and if you don't want to, or if you really cannot, it's not a big deal,
(08:27):
we'll go on to someone else, will help, but please try, so, again to go to a an evaluation of somebody who put it this winter in my French 251
the advanced language course, and what I like is that she mediated classes so everyone got a chance to participate.
It's true that she puts people, she calls on people
I think it was and I don't absolutely like these, but, and it was capital B U T
(08:49):
[Debora] Yeah, BUT! [Simona] The person who typed it, must have had fun.
But if she hadn't done that, I would have probably not participated as much,
so that was a good thing in the end. [Debora] Languages are special that way. Yeah. Right?
You have to be able to practice the language.
It's a paradox otherwise to say I'm afraid of speaking,
it's okay but I'm shy with the oral. Otherwise it won't happen.
(09:12):
And I did a lot of group work table discussion for that when I saw that they weren't
If they were getting shy, so create a smaller group, create a smaller group, what's intimidating, give the question and had somebody, their role,
the requirement was try to speak in French around the table, not in English.
Come to the answer then the person who just wanted to be the group speaker would raise their hand bring
(09:36):
but I would always ask another question from there.
Now that the answer was there out in the open, if they wanted to add something or what they brought to the discussion, [Debora] Yeah, and build that confidence, [Simona] Build that confidence.
So it's not only that you're teaching students in French, subjects in French.
(09:58):
Or that it's post-pandemic and you're trying to build that confidence again.
You're also addressing in your classes some very weighty topics, right.
Colonialism. Racism. How do you do that?
In a language class? Right? So these are these are very challenging.
(10:18):
These are more in my culture, like, cause I also teach the Francophone culture course.
I teach the literature courses, my courses that are on Francophone topics.
So. [Debora] But I'm assuming those are some of the same students, that are trying to work on their French, and then they are doing...
And they are, as I said, hard topics. And while I don't have a list, probably necessarily to say these are my steps,
(10:43):
I, as I would say first and foremost, as respectfully and humbly as I can, because.
it is obvious that I'm not one of those people that were afflicted by that situation, and I was never in a marginalized, position myself.
I'm a very lucky immigrant who came here, you know, 21 years ago,
(11:06):
and my life was far better and easier than some of the characters or people that I portray
so I have to pay attention. But it's something that I'm very passionate about, and I want to bring it to my students.
And some of them have deeper connections that I might have with those, those situation
so again, I would have probably to go back to somebody who wrote a letter for me.
(11:28):
very touching letter for the, for the dossier,
and they said, according to their testimonial, that I always made a human connection with the material taught.
Well, I'm glad I did. Somehow I always try to contextualize that because, you know, there's facts, there's the geography,
but it's one thing to put it in a history class, maybe as, so the sovereign powers decided to divide Africa,
(11:52):
and, you know, it has the Congress of Berlin 1850. And it's another thing for me, maybe to bring some experts, excerpts from some writings,
or just to simply explain that while they did that, they divided a river and that you had two Congos under two different colonial powers.
but basically there were they used to be the same people, the same village, and now they're not. [Debora] And unilaterally drew a line.
(12:16):
[Simona] yeah, and how that changed people's lives.
[Debora] Yeah, and that human connection, I think, you know, one of the things that comes through in your dossier, as you said, is that,
you know, making the human connection helps keep the students engaged in these, you know, what are pretty challenging topics.
And and if I may add something, there is, uh, while I always say to students in all my classes,
(12:39):
there isn't the right or wrong answer, maybe, just maybe in grammar,
but even then, you know, there are many exceptions. [Debora] Right.
There is, there are probably there is one topic where where I would not sit around and waffle if it was for better or for worse,
so I will make it clear in the beginning of the year about that colonization was a wrong, reprehensible fact.
(13:04):
We have to talk about it now and we have to talk about racism.
We will not sit there and question whether there were also some good positive aspects to, you know, hospitals being built and those people.
So that is a no, for me.
[Debora] And how did the students react to that? [Simona] Mostly they seem to agree with me,
I don't know if there are some who do not, but I think that is it's a slippery slope,
(13:30):
especially with everything that happens in the news, in the media these days,
there are so many. So to me, I don't know if people would disagree, but it's some things are only as they are.
The truth is the truth. Colonization was wrong, fact.
Racism is wrong. Discrimination.
We can talk about different views respectfully, but there are some things on which I suppose we humanly, [Debora] That's the foundation for ethical discussion. [Simona] universally, agree for ethics.
(13:58):
Yeah, yeah, and you note, that sort of in the example that you gave, you know, where they,
the colonial powers unilaterally drove drew lines all over Africa, even if it
divided up communities, families, right.
Uh, people who, who were connected to networks.
(14:19):
That's one way in which you make sure that marginalized voices get into your courses.
How else do you do that?
Because you, you do a whole bunch of different things in order to really broaden the perspectives that students get on these topics.
Well, we, uh, well I am also very lucky living in this time and day where I have access to so many resources
(14:41):
so in uh, not just in literature courses where I have the novels and I have living authors,
and they're writing their biographies and autobiographies and their own experiences as colonized people
and we have, but, we also have even, access to footage from, you know, the Colonial Exhibition in 1931.
(15:02):
It's going to be 100 years soon where I can show students,
what it was in 1931 where a French person would go pay some money to go see the splendour of the Empire, which included people.
People from the those, colonized countries sitting as artifacts and exhibits in different pavilions in was
(15:25):
the African pavilion, the Vietnamese - the Indo-China - Pavilion, cause they were not yet called as Vietnam.
So, always looking for, um, I'm, I was lucky to count with guest speakers,
wonderful guest speakers, either scholars or other people from the community who work in this field of,
(15:45):
multicultural and diversity, like guest speakers from Bring on the Sunshine and or Doctor Edwin Laryea, who is a scholar, but also-- [Debora] Students loved that.
Oh, they love, you're right they, we had to welcome him a second time by popular demand, because the first time it wasn't enough,
in the session, they had so many questions and they were so impressed.
(16:06):
Some of them are also, I suppose, shocked, maybe having heard for the first time, a story of a discrimination in Canada when he first arrived.
[Debora] Well most Canadians have a hard time thinking that we're above that. [Simona] And how he dealt with it, but it inspired students.
I remember one student's comment after that saying that it helped them so much because they were the only racialized child living in a rural,
(16:29):
remote community in Canada, and they were scared almost about coming to university and what the other colleagues would say
and they felt better listening to Doctor Laryea and I'm sure that also, university didn't turn out to be such a terrible place after all.
So the real story, the real facts, the connection.
(16:49):
Students always emphasize that it's one thing to learn from stories, from textbooks.
I think somebody said, and one thing to listen to someone having having lived through that real life experiences.
But, you know, these are things that you lead students through, right?
And so student discussion and student led activities are really key in terms of your classes.
(17:11):
One of the wonderful things that you do, which I really enjoyed, was the La Francophonie exercise,
where students in groups think about, you know, how do they fit into or identify with La Francophonie.
So I wonder if you could talk about because I think it's a great project. Yeah.
And I'm a bit disappointed that it took me so many years to come up with it.
(17:36):
I did it in 2023.[Debora] It was baking, it was baking.
Yeah, in 2023 I gave this assignment in French 238 because it's,
one of the courses for which we usually have trouble finding a community service, learning experience or a partner.
We always have a bit of trouble finding something that works with a course.
(17:57):
The course is a 100 students cap enrollment, so it's hard to find placement for them in all the [Debora] It's obviously popular.
It's a it's a popular course. It uh, it also cycled every two years.
I will not just keep it like that but I decided all right let's work.
They will do something like service and then think of themselves in the community.
Kitchener-Waterloo is a francophone, has a francophone association.
(18:20):
We have a francophone community and think, how do they, uh, define themselves and their francophone identity?
and, it was surprising to see that first, even if they're French learners and they learn French and they were born in Canada,
which is bilingual country, at least officially, they did not think of themselves.
They did not perceive of themselves as francophone well, speak French
(18:43):
and take French classes, [Debora] So even even students who had gone through French immersion.
No, they did not think because they had English parents or were raised in Ontario.
But I know you are a francophone.[Debora] or sometimes spoke a third language
You're Polish Canadian as you would like to say, but and it's not just those countries that,
France necessarily colonized and that I still speak it as an official language or not.
(19:07):
So they had to build this new identity about what it means to be francophone.
How do they fit in it? And then they talked about some of the challenges.
And that was kind of sad to read for me to say that they first, that they did not identify with, second, that they felt a bit,
what it's called like it was called term by a researcher, insecurity, linguistic insecurity and security.
(19:33):
[Debora] The Imposter syndrome Right. [Simona] So they they don't.
Yeah. Sort of. And they felt that when they travel, they said when they went to Quebec or France,
they felt that they couldn't or if they stammered a bit that the waiter or the person in front of them would switch to English.
[Debora] Of course, it's the ultimate sort of setback when you realize that your language is not even good enough for.
(19:57):
Yeah, then that create a sort of complex of inferiority that would then trickle into their course work and course performance,
because they don't want that to repeat in the classroom.
But so very interesting reading.
And they worked so well in groups and they did them like they looked like mini newsletters, pictures, colors, formats.
(20:20):
Uh, some of them interviewed each other. Some of them kept their answer anonymous or some of them actually gave.
This is me saying what happened.
I would say in the average first most of them left to like, yeah, now I think, I do think I consider myself as a francophone and how I fit into so.
Bit of a silver lining. You have to hold the testimonials.
(20:42):
And that was a wonderful project. And actually, I don't know why it took me until 2023 to give it, but [Debora] yeah, but that's metacognition, right?
So these students are, you know, actively reflecting on their own learning and thinking about.
And I learned so much about them otherwise I wouldn't have known. [Debora] That's right.
So also creating the student community. Or deepening the student community.
(21:03):
And what does a francophone culture course in the end mean.
Taking it. [Debora] So I'm going to just jump right off that and talk about your comic book project.
Because that's another right. That's another [Simona] 370 course.
[Debora] That's wonderful. So just tell us I didn't create it. It was in the books.
It was called Graphic Novels in Media. And I took it. And because my area of expertise is, you know, francophone literature.
(21:29):
So I adapted to that comic books, graphic novels by francophone authors.
And, I wanted most of my courses are run with the CSL experiential learning component because it's amazing.
I'm sure we're going to come back to it. And yes, and it's worth the work.
So why not then pairing our group, groups of four students paired with a fabulous,
(21:53):
teacher, French professor in the community who accepted to take them on.
[Debora] Yeah Let's talk about [Simona] and lead them on. So the students have to create a short comic or bande dessinée in French for the needs of that specific professor.
So we had professors from the francophone schools, but or just core French, but, different classes [Debora] so just teachers from Waterloo Region.
(22:16):
From the region. Yeah. Which the CSL office helped me.
Fine. Yes, sure. Shannon. Rebecca, wonderful, Lisa Jarvis
They find the partners, the email them, they said yes.
And then they. It's the responsibility of the student to start meeting.
They meet usually online because they're busy and [Debora] how many students in the class? [Simon]so that's capped at 40
(22:39):
I don't remember if the last time it was full [Debora] So that's like ten groups.
[Simona] That's why there [Debora] that is quite an undertaking. Yes. Yeah.
And they go and the teacher themselves will say, well, I'm working on this this semester.
So they have to adapt that better. But it also has to do with francophone and French.
I don't want them to create a French comic book on geography.
(23:02):
It has to stay within what we do with do and the meanings of the, of the course may be racism, diversity, bullying in school,
something similar if it can't be necessarily on Africa or Morocco.
And not only do they create the story and they do the the whole design, but I also because I'm a teacher myself,
(23:24):
I said, what good is a great resource if then you have to you know, we have to think how are you going to exploit it.
And then that takes us hours of work. So then my students have to come up with what's called the pedagogic.
It's the they have to put together at least 5 or 6 exercises. [Debora] So that's the application [Simona] That's the application to exploit the,
the story that they've created, be there. And they have to be a variety of exercises, content, the open questions on the grammar, on the language,
(23:50):
the professors, themselves might say which grammar points they want reviewed, right?
If depending when they are in the term. And then we go for some stages of correction.
They work once in class with me, then it's a first draft they send and I give pointers.
It goes to their partners. The partners say if they're happy or not, we come back,
we work on a second version and then a final version, and it's usually submitted by the the end of term.
(24:16):
And their response was quite positive.[Debora] So the teachers were happy [Simona] The teachers were happy last semester having that in class to exploit.
Apparently their younger students were shocked that somebody would write a beh-deh for them for their own purposes.
That was nice to hear. [Debora] And was this, public or secondary school exercises.
So mostly they're public. And it depends because, you know, we take our partners wherever they're available.
(24:41):
So some of them worked with fifth graders, sixth grader for in their audience targets.
Some of them had actually 11th or 12th grade advanced French immersion.
So yeah, that's that's challenging because it doesn't make it necessarily easier for those who have for the fifth grade or sixth grade,
because you had to adapt the language and the story to their stage of learning.
(25:03):
Oh that's wonderful. And they get pédagogique, so again the students loved it.
And they all say, yes, it's a bit of work. It's group work.
Connecting with our professor, with our partner, finding the time slots.
Of course nothing comes easy, but in the end they were happy and somebody said, I,
I'm pretty confident that I can do my own video exercises in kids when I'm
(25:24):
going to become a teacher because they are going to go to teachers college.
Well, maybe that's a good, uh, segue into thinking about because you also do, in addition to all of the other things you're doing,
you do career integrated learning, and I think it's your fourth year course.
That's based on Laurier's competency framework. So you talk a little bit about that.
Because that's also you know, you're preparing students for what comes next.
(25:47):
So that was last winter 2023. Again that's my literature for fourth year francophone literature course.
And again it's due to its topical and thematic. It's kind of hard to find community application.
Or I can always count on the benevolence of a lovely colleague who might do a conference on an author, but not always.
So then I thought, well, you know, they're graduating. It doesn't have necessarily to do with francophone literature,
(26:11):
but it would be good to see what do we get out of a francophone literature course that we have?
And how does it prepare us for, uh, our jobs and our futures?
Let them reflect.
So Lydia Mensah came to the class, and the first session, she asked them what they expected and what will the course bring to them.
And it was part funny, part shocking, because all of them, [Debora] They're like this isn't going to help [Simona] even those who are good students, and usually like the course, I'm sure it's going to be nice.
(26:39):
I'm going to read some books, but in terms of skills, like none, it's a literature course.
You know, so then Lydia said no.
So because they are not aware of the competency framework and even if they were,
even if we were to email it to them, I guess it doesn't make sense out of context.
[Debora]That's right. [Simona] And they're always quick to say yes language is useful because you learn language, but literature and culture is a bit of a fill up.
(27:04):
They're nice courses, we do stuff. But in terms of practical skills, yeah, I don't see how.
So it was an eye opener and something that yes, I want to integrate in more of my courses.
She gave them the competencies framework and they were tasked to keep a log all through the semester.
What skills from that frame did they acquire and what particular assignment in that class?
(27:29):
And at the end of the term, she came for the second session and gave them a job ad.
And we did mock interviews. And it wasn't the teaching job had nothing to do with languages.
I don't remember what it was, but it was something in another field,
and the students had to draw on their experience from this class, and they realized that they did.
Learn or develop improved time management skills, communication skills, or talking with problem solving when working with the group.
(27:57):
Critical reflection when doing a piece of an essay and this and that.
Oh. You know, literature course.
Yes. And they had to write their critical reflections in English just to submit them to the CSL
and I had access to them and it was gratifying to-- [Debora] To see the change. [Simona] To see the change.
[Debora] And you look back at your notes from the, oh, [Simona] From the first session was like, well, I like literature courses.
(28:21):
I don't think I gain any skills from them except for reading.
Yes, we read, that's all we do. We read and we talk. [Debora] Oh, I love that [Simona] And there is so much more.
So another really important aspect of your teaching is, you know, what we call internationalization at home.
Right. So that's where you're really providing unique opportunities for students in your
(28:42):
classes to really immerse themselves in French language and culture here in Waterloo,
even though you might be talking about other parts of the world, Africa, as you said, Morocco
You know, even Quebec, right? which in many ways seems far from Waterloo, right?
(29:03):
So maybe you can talk a little bit about your internationalization at home,
which, you know, especially during the pandemic when nobody could go anywhere.
What a wonderful way to get students to broaden their horizons.
As soon as you go into a second language course or third language course,
you know where you are, the French call it dépaysé, they, I don't know how to translate it in English
(29:25):
You're out of your element. You're out of your depth. You're no longer home.
Language is culture. They go hand in hand.
And, yes, it's a bit of a, may sound a bit cliche, but is traveling without actually traveling.
We do that by looking into the different resources aspects, seeing [Debora] Guest speakers. [Simona] Guest speakers make it also so more vivid.
(29:49):
But we hope also that it will become even sort of closer than that,
because in the department, we just, uh, we've created the, Co-op program.
Right? Majors in French, which is I've never had it. It will be starting this year.
So we hope that through this Co-op we might be able to have virtual exchanges or even virtual placements for those majors.
(30:14):
So to even add to this into internationalization.
Yes, going abroad without going abroad. But a lot of our students, I would say obviously not through the pandemic, but
most of our students majors or even those who take an options like to go to Quebec.
The Explore program is huge. We have Laurier International, and most of our students usually go for a semester or even a full year.
(30:39):
[Debora] So I was going to ask about that. Is it the case that you've got students who, you know, you're doing your internationalization at home,
you're you know, you're pulling in guest speakers. You had members of a conference on La Francophonie.
Yes. The writer [Debora] Came in. [Simona] Yes, came too. It was pretty big.
You may have seen the book it just came out with the book is older and we were lucky because it was on Zoom,
(31:02):
otherwise she would have never had time in her agenda to come to my class.
But I had her on Zoom, and Maryam Madjidi, who is another, author, and me and my colleague Dervila Cooke from Ireland,
we organized that panel on Zoom, and I was able to bring my students to attend,
and we were studying Rue, and I know some of them, for them, it was the novel they most loved and still love to this time.
(31:26):
And having the chance to listen to the author was, and to me, was amazing.
Yeah. And but also, you know, just interested in how that, that makes them then think, yes, I should go abroad.
Oh, yes. [Debora] I think its the softer, as you said, the softer, entree into internationalization.
But then thinking I want to do this [Simona] You had to
(31:47):
pick up the language and you've taken some culture class and you're inspired and think, I would like to go see for myself.
Right. It's different than the classroom. And we're also lucky to have our own courses.
Travel courses, the French 288, which took them to Marseilles, I think last time with Nathalie Freidel.
SP288, which goes to Salamanca. [Debora] I would like to take those courses!
I know, me too. I can't leave too much summers. I'm stuck home.
(32:11):
And this year was a Quebec course in Montreal taught by Doctor Reid.
And they usually not all of them, but most of our students, I would say, will take at least a semester abroad with the partners, universities.
One of the things that I have found challenging as a languages major myself, but also being very supportive of French immersion and extended French,
(32:36):
and my children do it as well. And you know, is is
demonstrating the, career related or career necessary nature of language training, right,
is convincing people this is a plus in terms of career, you know, how do you deal with that with your students?
(32:58):
You know, I really find that, you know, maybe outside of Laurier that there's a little bit of a, oh, really?
We're in Ontario. How useful is it? Right, and there's good data.
I always pull up the data for them, but, [Simona] you know, I know that if I know that from the Ontario University Fairs or the open houses where
we have a student was very keen and they know they want to do French or something,
(33:21):
and then you see the reluctant parent [Debora] And the parents are like really [Simona] Behind and them, they're like, what else can we do besides teaching?
There's a myriad of things besides teaching, and it is true that we get a large number who do come because they want to teach.
And for that, I would say so far in Ontario, the numbers are still good.
People with French still get jobs. There is still because it's an official language government official.
(33:45):
So most of our graduates were successful at getting jobs.
We have teaching panels, alumni panels, every semester where we invite students to share their experience.
One of them is on teaching, one of them is on non-teaching.
What did you do with a degree in languages,
if you didn't go into teaching and we've had wonderful speakers come in, one of them work for softwares with company.
(34:06):
Somebody is doing policy in French for the medical field. So but it takes it takes time even for the students.
And I've seen it with former students through time. The language may be easier to prove.
You will learn the language. Maybe you will get a job with, then the culture or going into other fields,
that it's the same thing we were talking about with the career integrated learning that they have acquired,
(34:28):
other skills like reflection, that they can put on their resumes.
Not that I can speak and write French, they can do so much more. [Debora] But they also have intercultural competencies.
I can. [Debora] This is, you know, 2024 Canada, right?
So these are critical skills [Simona] How do you how do you run a business without communication skills,
(34:49):
writing skills, some diplomacy skill, understanding the other person in front of you.
They come from a different culture. So that I think maybe we need to do a better job at marketing or somehow explaining.
But it takes time. And I've had lovely emails that came out after graduation from students who have gone,
(35:09):
a student who went to do law, in Ottawa, had taken some francophone and francophone literature
classes with me and wrote after five years that he now feels what he had learned in class
help him do what he's doing, because he was doing international law, I suppose,
he could piece it more than when you take the class, it made more sense five years later,
(35:33):
in his job, and he studied because he was taking law.
You also have to study what you like and what you think you're also good at.
Not always study what you think you should or is going to get you a job. [Debora] In order to make you money,
because things are volatile.
Yes. They're changing all the time. One of the big changes is transformative emergent technologies, generative AI.
(35:57):
Right. And so taking a little bit of a right turn here, but you know, what is language training like in an era of generative AI?
Because it does change the nature of the game.
I'm sure in lots of different ways I know. Yeah, we're still wondering, thinking about it.
[Debora] Yeah, well we all are. [Simona] and we'll see how we move forward. Absolutely. As you know, I love because [Debora]we know students are using it.
(36:23):
That's the reality. We know students are using it so [Simona] we know we have to talk about it.
Obviously for us, I'm sure for different disciplines has different challenges, but teaching languages, obviously it's a big, big, no.
I cannot say sure you can use AI for this translation because you're [Debora] You're not learning.
[Simona] And the AI is doing it and they're doing it quite well, I might add.
(36:44):
That's the frightening thing. Ten years ago, I could still make fun of Google Translate.
They've gotten a bit better, but not quite. Not to the point. I can still pull it,
and we can still show students because the AI still doesn't have
that human touch to translate the joke or a cultural reference.
It doesn't have the ethical or the emotion to think that some information may be sensitive and should be transferred, transmitted differently.
(37:12):
It translates still literally by patterns, and somehow it comes up with hilarious or offensive word by word translation.
So that's where you still pick it up, [Debora] or offensive.
Yes, because if you don't know what you said or how some expressions are from a language or what to a cultural society is acceptable.
Luckily,
we can still show students that human touch still has not been the AI can do maybe probably a solid mediocre word by word linear or even an essay.
(37:45):
But even as instructors, we are very good at picking up.
And instead of mathematical. And when it's mechanical and it's no good cheating yourself out of it because yes,
some people might say, but I have Duolingo, Babble,
I have my phone. Why bother
Have you actually put yourself in a real life situation where you will be in front of someone and I'll be like a right [Debora] hold on there [Simona] Je vous rien
(38:16):
Oh, look, my Wi-Fi is still spinning. I don't think it actually happens.
And if you're always going to do that, I mean, yes, you can practice 100 words per week or whatever and achieve stars.
I don't know what those apps do. It's not the same as you putting in the work.
And what's the point? They're still global, like they're still a global world out there.
(38:37):
We're supposed to be a global citizen, know more, meet more people.
Diversity, so, while yes, there is a challenge.
I'm confident that we'll understand more and the students will come to understand more about the how it helps and how it's not beneficial.
Yeah, well, and also how it just delivers, an inferior product.
(39:00):
Yeah. Right. And, you know, I really like that that harkens back to the beginning of our discussion.
You're not just teaching language, you're teaching culture. Sensitivity,
ethics, empathy, that that's not gonna be on the Google Translate or on the part of AI because,
it's funny how they can switch their answers to whatever you want them to do, because I have tried.
(39:22):
Right. You can say argue this and they will argue that. And then you say, well, that's not what I wanted anyway.
I will say, oh, I'm sorry. And then it switches which is completely and so.
But why do you know why? What's the meaning?
That's why I will start my 331 the translation course in fall, talking about the reason, approach, behind it, how will we study it and why?
(39:45):
I like paper dictionaries. [Debora] I like paper dictionaries too, [Simona] But more than words reference and something else.
Yeah. If you look back, I would say over your teaching career thus far, what's been the biggest change in your teaching practice?
Yes. And I told you I know why I waited until 2023 to give that assignment.
And I think what's mostly changed and for the better, I hope,
(40:08):
is embracing this experiential learning, community service and personal, more personalized approach,
because I came from a rigorous school, I come from Romania.
I came here just to do my master's and my PhD, and not to say that we was better or worse,
but it was vastly different, as I'm assuming it was even for you, your generation.
(40:30):
It was enforced content, next test,
exam, there were no student led discussions or creating comic books. No guides pédagogiques.
You were learning things, so you were tested on them.
So I did acquire a different style as I became a young teacher in Canada.
(40:51):
Professor.
But also in the beginning I probably was like, if it's not rigorous, you know, moderately difficult and staying on track [Debora] Then it's not good enough.
[Simona] And it's not fun, like I oh yes, free discussion, something maybe beginning and end of the term, but I have to teach the substance.
So when I first learned about, you know, community service learning or experiential learning,
(41:12):
where I went to workshops and people were doing field trips and things like that.
But how do you teach? How do you grade? How is that worth anything?
And then I realized it was so as I allowed myself to create such a sort of a personal it was a personal question in that assignment in 238.
But there was rigorousness, and the students researched and they gave identity definitions. [Debora] (41:32):
Integrating
And they did. And they applied what they had learned.
And it made more sense because it was personal to them, and it became less frightening for me to leave the reins a bit.
I mean, when integrating the student led discussion where I let them take charge of 30 minutes of the class,
(41:56):
what they supposed to lead the class into discussion into an interactive.
Whereas before I would have been like, well, I don't know, that's the only time.
So I think that was the greatest change to many benefits.
What's on the horizon now for your teaching? Where do you go next?
You've done so many different things in the past years, both pre-pandemic, during the pandemic, post pandemic, I guess improve on those.
(42:20):
We have new courses I would like to to work more collaboratively with,
colleagues from other disciplines, you know,
like maybe a colleague from history department could come and have a lecture in my francophone culture course,
because different perspectives enhance learning.
And I think it would also help students see how the different courses they take,
(42:42):
tying my French course with my history minor and whatever I do, I think I'm,
I feel terrible sometimes. I know very little about the people with the people around me do.
Yeah. We should more [Debora] It's because we're so wrapped up right in our [Simona] classes, our teaching
and we're so busy keep with the always
(43:03):
it's hard work, but it's so rewarding for us and the students to see yourself, experiential learning,
[Debora] Yeah, the Community Service Learning [Simona] To find find new ways and even maybe integrating virtually,
so I am excited we have this new,
path teach pathway to teaching. also new with the co-op leading to teaching.
So maybe we can do virtual exchanges, with other universities in the classes, in the language classes, in the francophone culture classes.
(43:33):
So I know there are challenges with, uh, time zones and, but maybe it can be done.
So things to explore from there to think I think it all comes to what the students want and need.
First and foremost, I realize, [Debora] Going from teaching content to teaching students [Simona] To what they need because there's generations,
(43:53):
I find change so fast that what you did two years ago may not be very applicable.
[Debora] Completely different needs. [Simona] So I cannot use most of the material from two years ago.
You just look at who they are in front of you and you pick it up from there. [Debora] They're complex human beings.
I wish that I had had you as my language teacher. [Simona] In my recent years.
(44:17):
Your students are obviously, you know, really appreciate your approach.
I have grown, so I know that, you know, it's been a journey for all of us.
and I'm very grateful and touched by everything good that's been happening lately.
Yes. Well, thank you so much for joining me here today. Thank you.
(44:37):
My thanks to Simona Prutenau for joining me today, and I hope you will join me for more conversations that celebrate exceptional teaching practices,
explore diverse teaching philosophies, and discuss the future of higher education, teaching, and learning.
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