483: Life as a Private Criminal Defense Attorney (w/Hannah Seigel Proff)

Episode Transcript
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Lee Burgess (00:01):
Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast.
I am so excited to have one of my dearfriends from law school here, Hannah
Siegel Proff, who is a private solocriminal defense lawyer out in Denver,
and she is going to chat with us aboutlife as a criminal defense lawyer.
Your Law School Toolbox hosts are AlisonMonahan and Lee Burgess, that's me.

(00:22):
We're here to demystify the lawschool and early legal career
experience, so you'll be the bestlaw student and lawyer you can be.
We're the co-creators of the Law SchoolToolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and the
career-related website CareerDicta.
Alison also runs TheGirl's Guide to Law School.
If you enjoy the show, pleaseleave a review or rating on
your favorite listening app.
And if you have any questions,don't hesitate to reach out to us.

(00:43):
You can reach us via the contactform on LawSchoolToolbox.com,
and we'd love to hear from you.
And with that, let's get started.
Hi, this is Lee fromthe Law School Toolbox.
I am so excited to have one of my dearfriends from law school here, Hannah

(01:03):
Siegel Proff, who is a private solocriminal defense lawyer out in Denver,
and she is going to chat with us aboutlife as a criminal defense lawyer.
And Hannah, I have done 500 or plusepisodes, and you're like the first
law school friend who's been onit, which is really funny to me.
Wow.
I know.
had no idea.

Hannah Seigel Proff: You've got to change that. (01:23):
undefined
I'm honored to be the first,but you have to change that.

I basically need to go down my list and be like,
"Who else wants to come join?"

Hannah Seigel Proff (01:31):
Especially now, there're judges and all
these partners at fancy law firms,so it's only uphill from here.

It is, really.
I mean, we now seem way fancierthan we were back in the day.

That's for sure.

Well, to get things kicked off for our listeners,
can you share a little bit moreabout yourself and what you do?

Of course.
So, I'm happy to be here.
I own and operate a boutique solocriminal and juvenile defense practice
here in Denver, Colorado, and I'vebeen practicing law for 16 years.
I spent seven years as a public defender,then I was in policy for a while.
Then I went to a private law firm and nowI've owned my own law firm for six years.

(02:11):
So, I really love running andoperating a solo practice.

That's so cool.
I remember you talking about your dreamsabout practicing criminal law back in
law school, which we won't admit how manyyears ago that was, to age ourselves.
But how did you know that criminallaw was going to be your passion,
and was doing a practice like you'vebuilt always how you wanted to do it?

Well, I was a cradle to JD law student.
I don't know that Iactually recommend that.
I teach now at both of the law schoolshere locally, and I'm always talking to
similar cradle to JD folks, and I'm alittle jealous of the people who had some
more life experience before law school.
But since I went into law school at theripe old age of 21-22, I thought I knew

(02:55):
exactly what I wanted to do, and whatI wanted to do was fight the prison
industrial complex with a law degree.
So, a 22-year-old Hannah, what that meantto me at that moment was doing prisoners'
rights, civil rights, that sort of work.
But as soon as I was introduced totrial practice, that all changed.
I fell in love with being in acourtroom, and cross-examinations,

(03:18):
and the strategy and the theaterof it all, and I was hooked.
And so, I parlayed my passion forfighting the prison industrial
complex into direct representationand indigent defense, specifically.

And what's been the most surprising thing about your role as
a private criminal defense lawyer?

I think the most surprising thing has just been how
much business is part of running alaw firm, which sounds ridiculous.
I didn't go into being a lawyer thinkingI wanted to run my own law firm at all.
I sort of went into it thinkingI'd be a public defender forever.
I'm a first- generation collegegraduate, so first-generation lawyer.

(04:01):
My parents, my father worked forthe government, so I was sort of
raised on this idea like you get agovernment job and you stay there
for 25 years, and then you retire.
So, I went into the publicdefenders, again, at the ripe
old age of 24-25, with that plan.
So, when I switched courses eventuallyand left PD life, thanks to the support
of mentors and things like that, Iwas surprised as I ventured down that

(04:24):
path how much business and businessdevelopment, how much time it takes.
Lucky for me, I love that part of it.
My husband and I own a brewery, I havea real estate business that I run.
I love business, so it isn't a bummerto me that I spend probably 25% of
my week doing business development,doing those sorts of things.
But I think that's been themost surprising thing about

(04:46):
running my own law firm.

Yeah, nobody talks about that, and the logistics of
managing all the information, andnow you need all these operating
systems to run your client files.

Yeah.
And part of that can be really fun, right?
Like figuring out how to incorporate AIinto my practice, and having all the
right softwares and streamlining my work.
I really love that.
But it's non-billable time for the mostpart that you have to spend to build
those processes, so that you can doyour best work when you're working.
Yeah, I

think that is one of the things that can make those
government roles somewhat appealing,is there isn't as much of that.
The government kind ofruns everything for you.

A hundred percent.
And I meet with public defendersall the time who say, "I'm tired
of the grind, the caseload.
I want to make moremoney", whatever it is.
And I remind them, I'm like, "Firstof all, add 20-30k to your salary,
because of all of your benefits,your paid vacation, all of that."
I love running my own firm, so I'mnot trying to talk them out of it.
But don't forget about that.

(05:48):
And also, don't just do the, "If I billedX number per hour, eight hours a day,
I would make X", because if I'm billingeight hours a day, I'm working 12.
And you know that fromprivate law practice as well.
So, it takes a lot of time tobill time, and then add on top of
that all the business stuff youget to do as a business owner.

Yeah.
It's interesting, my parents both weregovernment lawyers, and then my dad
was a prosecutor for the government formost of his career, and then switched
to a private criminal defense practice.
And I think that was just an interestingpoint to even do that later in your
career, because then, yeah, all ofa sudden you're really used to paid
time off and all of those benefits.

(06:30):
And it was a little bit different,because he'd had so many years
with the government, I think thegovernment still supported some of
the benefits and things like that.
But still, there're a lot of logistics.
And one of the things that healways commented was that it's a
different way of being on call whenyou have these individual clients.
You don't just get to go home at 6:00.
Which he didn't always do ifhe was in trial, but generally

(06:51):
speaking, you didn't have somebodycalling you with an emergency.
And so, he used to keep a suit inthe back of his car because he just
never knew when he would be somewhereand would get a phone call and need
to go to the jail or need to go havea meeting with someone, because it
was just a much different dynamic.

Absolutely.
My husband and I take a two-weekto 20-day international trip every
year, so I close my law firm.
And it's so funny because every year, Igo to the jail and I remind my clients for
weeks, months leading up, like, "I'm goingto be completely unavailable for 20 days."
By the time that last visitcomes, they're like, "Just leave!
We know!

(07:29):
We'll be fine!"
Literally their lives are on the line,that it's really hard to leave, and
I have to set up with my paralegal.
The people who call my office tohire me, you don't call a criminal
defense attorney because you needhelp three months from now, right?
So, I have to set it up thatthat business goes elsewhere.
And again, I try to not use ascarcity mindset with my firm.
And understand that when I make timefor myself, when I take the cases

(07:53):
I want and say "no" to cases thatdon't suit me, the work I want to
do is going to come back for me.
Or if I say "no" to five cases while I'min Mexico for 20 days, when I get back
I'm going to be refreshed to do betterwork for the clients that I can take.
So, I think it's hard when you run yourown firm, because it feels like every
call is money that you could make, but notrunning a firm from a scarcity mindset is

(08:19):
something I really have worked hard at.

Yeah.
I think anytime you run your ownbusiness, to be able to just say
"I'm out of office" is really hard.
And the longer you run your own business,I think it gets harder, because it becomes
so much more a part of you, and you justdon't clock in and clock out the same way.
I love running my own business becauseI think there are the tradeoffs to
that is, you do have all this autonomy.

(08:44):
You can decide what you want to do,you can build the life that you want,
and you're very responsible for it.
So, one of the things you mentionedwhen you were talking about your
practice is you do juvenile defense.
And so, what are the uniquechallenges juvenile defendants face?
And I feel like you don't necessarily heara lot of law firms that focus on that,

(09:04):
or promote that they work with juveniles.

Hannah Seigel Proff: Yeah, it's so interesting. (09:07):
undefined
One of my mentors when I was startingmy firm, I went to her with my logo
and my website before it was alllaunched, and she gave me the advice
to back off on the juvenile stuff.
She's like, "Look, I think it makes youseem like you're less of a litigator."
There has been unfortunately thissort of stereotype that people
who practice juvenile law areless kind of fierce litigators,

(09:30):
because it's more of a soft system.
I don't agree with any of that.
But her advice - and I trust her and she'sstill a dear friend and a mentor - was
sort of, "Back up off the juvenile stuff.
That work will come to you becauseof your reputation doing that work."
And I really stuck with my guns.
And the reason I stuck with launching alaw firm that says it's a juvenile-focused
law firm is, it's the work that I loveto do, it's the clients that I love

(09:55):
to assist, and really, it's a practicearea and a specialty that's really
come to fruition, at least in Colorado,in the 16 years I've been practicing.
When I started as a public defender,there were very few lawyers who were
focused on representing childrenin a holistic manner, specifically
children charged as adults.
Those cases were just assigned topublic defenders who represented adults,

(10:18):
because the child was in adult court.
And it's really in those yearsthat I was a public defender
that the norm started to shift.
And we started to say, "We reallyneed specialists to do this work,
who really understand the adolescentbrain and development and the
law specifically with children."
So, it's been a joy of minethat that's a focus of mine.

(10:39):
And I still get plenty of criminaldefense work in the door, but I
get a lot of juvenile defense work.
I'm everywhere from Aspen to ColoradoSprings, which is hundreds of miles
away for those people who aren'tColorado people, doing juvenile
defense, which is what I love to do.
So I think when I took maybe the riskof putting out that specialty and
really putting out into the world whatI want to do, that work came to me

(11:03):
and people think of me for that work.
So, I really love it.

I would assume too that the challenge of juvenile work
is that oftentimes you are reallyholding a community or a family around
that juvenile who has made possiblypoor choices in extreme situations.
When my father changed careers, andpeople would say lots of things about
prosecutors who switch, because I thinka lot of prosecutors are true believers.

(11:29):
And my dad always would say thingslike, "I have a role to play.
In my role, people makemistakes on my side.
People make mistakes.
We all do our best to keep thesystem as honest as we can."
So when you switch sides, peoplewould say all sorts of stuff, right?
"How can you do this?
How can you defend?"
And he's like, "You know, most ofmy clients are people who made poor
choices in extreme situations."

(11:51):
And you're often holding the familieswho are supporting a person who made
poor choices in extreme situations.
And so, I would assume in thejuvenile court process it's the same,
because you've got to have parentsand family and community that are
also really hurting and scared.
And that's something they don't train youto do in law school, is manage families.

I don't even know that they train you
in law school to manage clients.

I think that's true.
Fair point.
I was thinking that as I just said that.
I was like, "What class did wetake that taught us to do that?"
I think

there's more of that now, at least at
the law schools in Colorado.
I'm seeing more of interviewingwith empathy and people at least
talking about those concepts.
That is one of the hardest things aboutjuvenile defense, and it's why for a
lot of people, it's not the right fit,because you have a client, you owe your
duty of loyalty to that client, you haveyour attorney/client privilege with that
client, but then you have parents, often,who are paying you, or even if they're

(12:48):
not paying you, they want to be apprised.
Of course, the child is the holder ofthe privilege, so they can say, "Tell my
mom nothing", "Tell my mom everything."
Both of those conversationsare hard for the lawyer, right?
So, managing the family is very hard.
I'll also say I representa lot of lawyers' children.
I personally don't have children,but people who have children, it

(13:09):
is like their brain does not work.
People call me, "Well, I'm a lawyer.
I sort of understand mykid's in big trouble."
And I think to myself, "You actuallyprobably know less than the average
Joe who calls me and their kid's introuble, because you know too much."
So, that part is hard, but I love thatpart and I love looking at the whole.
I practice holistic juveniledefense, and that's sort of best

(13:31):
practices in Colorado these days.
And so, looking at really the wholechild, the whole family, if it's
available to me, to address the needs.
Of course, I represent innocent children.
There may be no needs, they'rejust wrongfully accused.
But a lot of times I represent a childwho in a split second, because their
prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed,made a terrible decision, to your point.

(13:52):
And the entire rest of their life couldbe changed in such detrimental ways.
I'm representing children charged withhomicide, sex assault, weapons charges.
They're in really big trouble.
And that's the hardestpart about the work.
It never gets easy towatch anyone go to prison.
The heartbreak of watchinga child go to prison...

(14:13):
And sometimes prison is the best option.
If you can get a child a 20-yearsentence to prison on a murder case,
unfortunately that might be considereda good sentence in some cases.
And that's still longer than thatchild's lived, longer than the parents
have had with the child in the home.
None of those conversationsare easy, but I really love it.

(14:37):
I love it.
And I just try to keep empathy at thefront of all of the conversations.

Yeah.
I recently went and saw MalcolmGladwell speak, he has a
new version of his book out.
And one of the things he talked about inthis lecture was the power of listening.
The interviewer was talking to himabout why he's good at what he does.
And he says that he thinks his greatestskill is being a very acute listener,
and that it's a very underratedskill, is being able to hold that.

(15:07):
And I feel like that must be somethingthat you really have had to hone when
you're dealing with all of these folkswho are in a crisis moment, as you said.

Absolutely.
One of my tricks that I tell young publicdefenders, all lawyers, anyone who wants
to be mentored by me who is looking fora trick or tip - every time I meet with
a client for the first time, I make sureI don't have an appointment afterwards.
So, if I go to a jail at1:00 PM, I probably want to
be home for dinner by 7:00.

(15:35):
And I have never had to stay thatlong, but I don't come in and say,
"I'm going to be out of here by3:00", because that starts off the
conversation with "I don't have enoughtime for whatever you want to tell me."
I'm like, "This is our first conversation,so I'm here as long as you need me."
Most of the time ameeting lasts for an hour.
Everyone's exhausted after an hour.
I'm going to get out of there.
But I'm holding space to have thatconversation go as long as I need.

(16:00):
Moving forward, once I've builttrust, I can say to someone, "Look,
I have a doctor's appointment at3:00, so I've only got an hour today.
I hope that's okay."
They know I'm going to listen, and Ihave listened in the past, and so that's
something that really works well for me.
Same with my office meetings.
I will assume there will be an hourthat first one, but if there are
two, I have the time on my calendar.

Yeah, because when you're trying to get somebody to confide
in you, even if they've hired you- especially, let's say, in the juvenile
context maybe it's the parents thathave hired you - and this young person
or this teenager does not know you.
And so, there's got tobe time to convince them.
I mean, teens aren't the bestat speaking to you about things.
Even my 10-year-old, sometimes ittakes me a while to say, "Alright,

(16:43):
we're just going to kind of noodleon this until you start giving me
actual information about what I need."

Absolutely.
When I have adults in my office, theyall laugh because my whole conference
table is like covered in fidgets,which adults always laugh at them, but
then they immediately start fidgeting.
We almost all love fidgets, right?
But I also do a lot of walking meetings.
Denver has a couple of greatwalking trails that are
really private, or bike paths.

(17:10):
If I'm talking to young people aboutthe first time they had sex, or
really scary situations, they may notwant to make eye contact with a 42-
year-old woman, or with anyone forthat matter, while they talk about it.
So, I really try to think outside thebox about how to build rapport and
how to have those tough conversations,because you have to have that
relationship in order to do my job well.

If you're listening to this and you're in law school, and I
think you want to do any sort of deepclient-facing work, because I think that
criminal defense is its own category, butI would even assume that even family law
lawyers would be in the same camp, right?
You have people coming to you often incrisis, unless you're just doing prenup
work, but there's usually a crisis.
They're not at theirbest, they're in pain.

(17:55):
How should folks go abouthoning those skills?
I mean, maybe law schools are talkingto them about this more than when we
were in law school, but still, lawschool is not as focused on being the
whole person as maybe they should be.
So, where do those skills come from?
I mean, you have alwaysbeen a good listener.
We've known each other for a long time,I think that's part of who you are.

(18:16):
But these are skillsthat can be developed.

Absolutely.
I don't even know if thisis a piece of advice.
I don't think I've ever been askedthis question before, but I think one
of the things I did to become a goodlistener is just to be curious in life.
Don't stop reading novels and readingmagazines and doing things that
interest you when you're a law student.
Don't just become like alaw-processing machine.

(18:41):
That's not this job.
For the most part, people hire mebecause of my empathetic listening,
because of my vibe, the thing I saywhen they walk in or when we're texting
before the meeting or something.
People don't come in for the most partand start quizzing me about the law.
I'm very good at the law, I know the law.
People don't hire me having seen meever cross-examine someone, right?

(19:03):
They can read the reviewsonline, all of those things.
They hire you because of yourpersonality, and your life experiences,
and your ability to make eye contactand to have those conversations.
I also say that as I'm neurodiverse,I'm dyslexic, so I'm thinking about
this from a neurodiversity perspective.
I know some of us aren't as good atmaking eye contact or things, but think
about the ways that you can connectto people, like what's best for you

(19:27):
and is authentic to your personality.
There is nothing about beinga trial attorney that works
if it's not your style.
I've learned this the hard way by seeingpeople in the courtroom and trying to
emulate something and then being like,"I feel like an absolute idiot right now.
This is not me, this isn'tsomething Hannah does."
So, it feels like I'm putting on an act,and I think a jury can tell that as well.

(19:50):
And that's how it is with clients, whetherit's a divorce or a civil rights case,
someone's family member, a personalinjury case, people are injured, they've
lost a family member, they've lost theirability to use their body, feel well.
You have to have so much empathy for that.
And honestly, I think thinking morebroadly than yourself generally

(20:10):
is going to help unlock that.
I also think getting into those situationsand watching other lawyers address it
when you have internships, asking - itmight not be billable or whatever - but
"Can I come to those meetings whereyou decide whether you take a client?",
because a lot of the empathy starts,a lot of that rapport building starts

in those initial meetings (20:30):
"I am so, so sorry this happened to you."
One of the things I always say, whichis 100% true, when people call my
office, I will say, "How are you?
Thanks for your call.
How are you?"
And then I immediately say, "Although Iknow most people don't call my office on a
great day, I'm glad to be talking to you."
Because it's true, people don'tcall a criminal defense attorney
because it's like, "Yay, a summonsjust pulled up in the mail" or,

(20:52):
"There's a cop outside my door."
Very rarely.
So yeah, I think think globally, readbooks, keep your personality outside
being a lawyer, because I swear, Idon't get any of my business because
of my lawyer skills, upfront atleast, from a business perspective.
And

I think look at other people even outside of the profession.
I have a dear friend here inthe Bay Area who is a chaplain.
She was trained in Zen Buddhism anddecided she really felt called to
become a chaplain, so she did all thisprogramming, she went to school for it.
And she is the most intensivelistener I have ever experienced.
And this has been since Imet her like a decade ago.

(21:32):
But when Amanda sits with you, wecould be talking about poop and our
kids, but she is just there with you.
She has this amazing presence andyou can see why she sits with people
often in their darkest moments.
She works with parents who their childrenare in a pediatric care and are in crisis.
But you can see that she just has thisability to show up and hold space in

(21:55):
a way that I've never seen before.
And having her in my life hasmade me a better business owner.
I mean, I talk to people who are ina different type of crisis, right?
Not so extreme, but they might feellike they can't move forward in their
profession, they are struggling.
And I am able to hold those conversationsbetter, because I've had a friend
in a totally different realm who'smodeled for me what it feels like

(22:18):
when somebody is really present.
She just has this deep presence.
And so, I think so often we forget tolook outside the legal profession - like
you were saying, read books and do that.
But what does it feel like tobe around somebody who's such
a good, compassionate listener?
And then you'd want to take that and say,"How do I do that, even in my personal
life when my friends are in crisis?
How do I show up in that way?"

I love that.
It's such a good example.
And I am lucky enough at this pointin my career that I have sort of
a board of directors of mentors.
And I laugh, because some of them - Idon't necessarily tell them this - but
I have the one that I'm like, "Iwant her marriage when I'm her age."
She's a lawyer, and she's anamazing lawyer and she helps me.
But one of the core things I appreciateabout her is how well she's kept her life

(23:00):
outside of being a lawyer at her center.
Then I have the litigation, I have,like you, the empathetic, the lawyer
that when I talk to her about acase or whatever, tears come to her
eyes, like she feels me with me.
It's such an important lesson, but I'mmaybe not going to come to that person
for the business development help,because she's the one who's like, "I

(23:21):
work for a law firm because I'm a messand I can't have my own business."
So, I think you can't lean on one kindof example or mentor for everything.
So, you might have someone atyour first job - for the listeners
- that you're like, "Wow, theyrun a client meeting so well."
But then you see them litigatingand you're like, "That would
never be me in the courtroom.
It's way too flashy.
It's way too whatever."
That's fine.

(23:42):
That person can be your client visitmentor in your head, and then you
can borrow from someone who fitsmore your style for the courtroom
presentation part of things.
So, I love that.
And that friend of yours sounds amazing.

Which she really is.
But you definitely have tohave this board of directors.
I love that.
And I think as my life gets bigger andmore complicated, I definitely have so
many people I go to, to hold space forme in all sorts of different spaces.
And it's such a treat when you get tobe with those people, who you look at
for that individual advice, because youcan say, "I'm here because I just want

(24:16):
to consume your advice on this topic,because you're my person in this way."
It makes those get-togethersreally powerful, especially when
nobody has a lot of free time.
And so, time becomes sucha precious commodity.

I teach at both of the law schools here, as I said.
We have this thing at Universityof Denver Law School, it's called
Breaking Bread with the Professors.
So the professors take the students out tolunch or coffee, I took my students out to
pastries and coffee on a Saturday morning.
And students sign up andthen you buy them coffee.
And during that presentation, oneof the things that the students were
like, "Oh, this was so helpful to hear"was, I said, as people's mentor, and

(24:52):
as a member of the legal communitythat people come to for advice, I am
so appreciative when a mentee of minecomes to me and says, "I want to talk.
I would love to schedule a 15-minutephone call to talk about negotiating
this contract that I just gotthis job offer", or "15 minutes to
talk about my theme and theory inthis DUI trial I have next week."

(25:13):
I'm so much more excited totake that meeting than like a
nebulous, "Can we schedule a call?"
Because when I go to plug"Can we schedule a call?"
into my Eisenhower decision-makingmatrix of like, "How urgent
is this?", I have no idea.
Is it life or death, orthis can wait a month?
And I just did it yesterday.
I'm thinking of doing somethingsort of unorthodox in a case

(25:35):
that I start in eight days.
And I texted two mentors,"Have you ever done X?
Even, yes or no, I would still like toschedule a call after the Thanksgiving
holiday to talk to you about thistrial of mine that starts on the 9th.
Do you have any time betweenthe 2nd and the 9th?"
They wrote back right away, thrilledto schedule the call because

(25:55):
I was specific with my needs.
So yeah, having those people you goto and being explicit with, "Right now
I want to talk about this really hardcase" or, "I want to talk about my stress
about retirement savings", or whateverit is - I'm so happy to have that agenda.
And of course we're going to strayand talk about other things, but
we're going to start with whateverthe most pressing topic is for

(26:16):
you, and that's how it should be.

Right.
And I think that it really helps peopleunderstand how they can show up for you.
I think that so often, we have peoplein our lives and we know that we
are their mentors or their friends,but it is nice to say, "I need this.
Can you show up for me in this way?"
And then it's the person who's showingup - you're like, "Yeah, I can.
I'm happy to show up for you in that way."

(26:39):
It's such a benefit.
Like you said, you can stray and haveother conversations, but it feels good
as the person who's giving that supportto say, "You have this need and I can
help you meet this need right now."
It makes you feel good and helpful,and then it also gets the receiver
of the advice what they need.
They don't have to feel awkward.
And you can even pre-think about it.

(27:00):
I think that's great too.
If you are prepping for a case andwant specific advice, maybe you
don't want the off-the-cuff advice.
Maybe you want the advice thatthey thought about on their commute
into work, knowing they're goingto have a meeting with you later.
You couldn't do that ifyou didn't prep them for

it.
A hundred percent.
And that's the thing, when I getthose, "Can I pick your brain
later this afternoon?", sometimesI need to pull a statute book out.
It's like, if I had known ahead of timethat you wanted to talk about 19-2-1001,
I would have looked at it before our call.
So, I think people think they'resaving people time being vague, but
actually I think it's the opposite.

Yeah, I know.
Let's just be as direct as possible.
Life's too short and complicated.
So, you mentioned...
I know you and your husband areboth entrepreneurs, you mentioned
about your vacation that youtake internationally every year.
I think it's so important to decide whatbalance means to everyone, because we
cannot have everything at all times.
It just doesn't work that way.

(27:57):
So, how have you set up your lifeso you feel that you have what
you want professionally and whatyou want outside of your life?

Yeah, it's such a good question, and I will admit, I
think like many people probably fromour generation of lawyers, this wasn't a
focus when I first got out of law school.
We did not talk about work-life balance.
Now I speak on panels, the firstquestion I get asked a lot of times
from modern day law students is,"What about work-life balance?"

(28:25):
I didn't think about that for the firstseven years of my practice, and it was
to my detriment, because I was burnt out.
I wasn't doing anything well.
I always tell this anecdote, becauseI think it's so telling - one of the
reasons I decided to leave the publicdefender is my husband, Brandon, said to
me - my six, six and a half years as apublic defender - he says, "Do you know
you haven't texted me about somethingthat wasn't work-related in six months?"

(28:48):
And I was like, "Oh my gosh, please."
In my head, I'm of course gettingdefensive, because this sounds so bad.
And so then I get on the bus - and I'llnever forget - I get in the bus and I'm
scrolling and he's like, "I love you."
And I'm like, "Did you pickup my dry cleaning, because
I start trial on Monday?"
He's like, "Any plans this weekend?"
I'm like, "Closing murder on Monday",because my last six months as a

(29:08):
public defender, I tried two murdertrials and four sex assault trials.
I was just litigating all of the time.
So, that was a real wakeup call for meand I'm so glad he said something, because
at the end of this career, I plan toretire right at 60, so I will have been
a lawyer for 35 years at that point.
I'm going to have, hopefully, God willing,years and years of life ahead of me, and

(29:32):
I want to have a partner, and a life,and friends, and not just have my whole
life around my law firm and my cases.
Of course my legal community, I lovemy legal community, but Lee, we went
to school in California, so I movedhere to Colorado to be a lawyer.
So, a lot of my friends whenI first started were public
defenders, were lawyers.

(29:53):
It's been really important to me todiversify my friend groups, diversify
what I'm spending time doing,and making my family a priority.
I'm also religious about the gym.
I have to get to the gym five days a week.
I just have seen firsthand how much bettermy brain works and lowers my stress.
I try to keep what I call a SecularSabbath, which is based in the Jewish

(30:16):
traditions that I grew up with, butreally more just, I don't work from
sundown on Friday to Sunday morning,even when I'm really prepping a trial,
because you're never at your bestwhen you've worked seven days a week.
So, it reminds me of taking the bar.
Everybody said with the barexam, "Take those couple of days
before the bar off, don't study."
And I remember that seemed so hard.

(30:37):
And then when I was almost done withthe bar, it's like, "Wow, if I had been
going nonstop, I would have burnt out."
There's only so much gas in the tank.
It's

so true.

Yeah.

Yeah.
Well, I think that's reallyimpressive because you're teaching,
you've got your solo practice,you have your other businesses.
And then you also started a non-profit?

I did, although I'm transitioning.
It has a new home starting January

1st.
Oh, awesome!
That's amazing.

After 15 years, that's sort of going
off my plate a little bit.
I'll still be involved, but yes, Ifounded, co-founded, and have been the
acting executive director for LYRIC, whichis Learn Your Rights in the Community.
We started 15 years ago,myself and Michael Juba - he's
another attorney here in town.
And it's a Know Your Rightscurriculum for young people.
So, it's meant to empower youngpeople to be knowledgeable citizens

(31:30):
about how the Constitution appliesto them in police interactions.
And that's for anyone who gets a speedingticket - which, who hasn't been there?,
to of course folks who are investigatedor a part of larger allegations of
criminal wrongdoing, to know what doesa lawyer say you should do in those
situations, which is, remain silent,don't consent to them searching you or

(31:50):
your stuff, and really putting yourselfat the center of that and making sure
you understand how your rights apply.
And also talking about safety andacknowledging generally the white
supremacy in the history of policing inthis country, and that there are just
going to be certain folks, certain youngfolks that we're teaching it's not safe
for them to have police interactions.

(32:10):
And so, understanding how to safelyexercise their rights is an imperative.
So, I love the work that we do.
I will tell you though, I got burntout of having an unpaid extra job.
And it started to feel like it wasn'tgoing to be able to be sustained,
and the message is so important thatwe decided it would go under the
Transformative Justice Project, whichis an amazing non-profit in town.

(32:33):
And I cannot wait to just go in and teachthe curriculum instead of doing all of the
back-end things that I'm not as good at,like fundraising and all of those things.
Although I'm sure I will stillhelp with all of those things.

Sure.
But it's different to own itthan it is to help with it.
It's a very differentmental kind of capacity.
I think it's such a great message,because as the daughter of two lawyers,
of course they had that talk with me.
Especially when I was a teenager,when I started going in my friends'
cars, when I had friends in my car.
I vividly remember sitting down and myparents being like, "If you get pulled

(33:06):
over, this is exactly what you do.
Just remember, you do not knowwhat's in anyone's backpack.
You do not know what'sin the trunk of the car.
If the police officer comes to yourfront door, this is what you say and do."
And my dad was a prosecutor at thattime, and he's still like, "These
are the things that you can do."
And so, even now, as my friendshave teens, one of my friends,
their teen was staying home alonefor the first weekend by himself.

(33:29):
And I sat him down and was like, "If you need to call the police for
something, here's what's going to happen.
Or if you get pulled over", whatever.
And I think it's so important,because who else is having these
conversations with young people?
Young people of color, of course,there's such a greater impact on some
of them because of the history of racismaround some of these interactions.
The stakes are so high for everyone,but even more so for those populations.

(33:53):
I think that being able to bringthis discussion and empower with
information is so important.
I really respect the factthat you've brought it into...
And so, are you doing it in schools?
Are you teaching it in schools?
We

do.
We teach it in 50 Coloradoschools, high schools, yes.
So, the ideal situation is goinginto a Civics class after they've
learned about the Constitution, but weteach in French classes and Home Ec.
Anybody who will have us, we willbe there to teach the lesson.
So, teachers really loveit, students really love it.

(34:26):
We, of course, have anecdotal evidenceI hear from lawyers, like, "Oh my gosh,
my client remained silent because hepulled one of the business cards out."
So, it's really rewarding and importantwork, but I'm excited to go on to
the next kind of volunteer thing,because at this point, LYRIC has been
about a 10-hour a week job for me ontop of my job for probably 10 years.

(34:48):
For the first five years we were prettygrassroots, it wasn't very organized.
But now we have a staff and it's a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, we could talk all day.
But we both have thingswe have to do today.
Before we go, though, I want to reminiscea little bit about our time in law school.
So, you talk about 22-year-old Hannahwho's at law school and wanted to
take on the prison establishment,changed course a little bit.
So if you could go back and talk to earlytwenties Hannah, what would you say to

(35:21):
her, and give her advice about what todo or how to think about the future?

I think I would talk to baby Hannah about networking, and
trying to network in an authentic way.
I felt like such an imposter going intolaw school, and I surely felt like such
an imposter any time I talked to lawyers.
And I will say I don't know that youand I have talked about this - but

(35:47):
the wildest thing about agingto me is how you don't change.
I

It's

thought 42-year-old Hannah would be so
different from 22-year-old Hannah.
And other than the lifeexperience, I'm exactly the same.
I'm going to crack up at the same weirdthing, I'm going to feel awkward when
I first walk into a room sometimes.
I And so, you're talking to lawyersthat also have their own insecurities

(36:14):
and were in your shoes at some point.
That's the cool thing about beinga lawyer - we all went through some
version of what you're going through.
So I just wish I would haverelaxed to feel myself and build
community more with my mentors.
I had a few.
Richard Sakai, who was at our lawschool, who's one of my dear friends
and mentors, and I credit with alot of my success in law school.

(36:35):
There were those people that I wasable to put my guard down and be myself
around, and I think I was good at thataround my colleagues and our cohort.
But when I went to a networkingevent, I was like 22-year-old Hannah
pretending to be 42-year-old Hannah,even though she had it totally wrong.
So, I think just relax, beyourself, ask those questions.

(36:56):
I think the thing I got right about lawschool is I knew what I wanted to do.
I don't really understand contracts,and I'm going to study as hard as I can,
I'm not going to break myself over it.
And I got a C in Contracts.
And has there ever been anegative consequence in my life?
Other than the fact that when Isign contracts, I always think to
myself, "Ooh, maybe I shouldn'thave gotten a C in Contracts."
I don't do that work.
So, that focus worked out wellfor me because I love what I do.

(37:20):
But I wish I would have just beenmyself and admitted the things I
didn't know, because I didn't know.
I knew next to nothing.
And I think the good news is, afterabout five years as a public defender,
I matured a little and I also kind ofput my head up out from under the water
and I was like, "Okay, I can do this."
I no longer have the imposter syndromethat I started out with, but now I

(37:43):
need to figure out how to do it betterand learn from the people around me.
So, that's how I'd coach myself.
But otherwise, I will say Idid a lot of things right.
We had fun.
We didn't just study all thetime, which I'm very thankful for.
I meet some of these law students nowthat I'm working with and I'm like,
"What are you doing this weekend?"
They're like, "Studying."
And it's like the firstweekend of law school.
You need to go meet your friends, meetyour cohorts, go to that barbecue.

(38:06):
These are going to be yourcolleagues and your friends for life.
And don't throw that away.

It's so true.

And they're going to be the people who help you.
Those friends are going to be thepeople who you call when you're like, "I
cannot understand mens rea" or whatever.
"Explain it to me."
Or 20 years from now whenyou're like, "This happened.
I need your advice."
So, you really do need thosepeople, both for your mental
health and for your legal career.

Yeah, because life is happening while you're there.
I think we can get into thesepockets of time in life.
And I feel like the one benefityou get from aging is you
see time differently, right?
That's one of the reasons whythey say you get generally happier
when you age, because you havea different perspective on time.
But I, of course, think of that pocketof time, and I think of the fun we
had, and the people that we met.
And yes, we did work hard, ofcourse, but that's also life.

(38:58):
Life was happeningduring that time, right?
These are three years of yourlife, if you're in it full-time.
And what do you want that to be?
Yes, success.
We both worked hard, we reachedour goals, but it's still life.
Life's happening right now, and youwant to not miss out on it fully.
You can be responsibleand not miss out on it.

(39:18):
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
Well, I like to end with one morequestion, because I think it's one
that we don't ask a lot of lawyers.
It's like, are you happy with this path?
Are you happy with yourprofession and what you do?

I'm so happy.
I have the best life.
I just have really carved outa practice area that suits me.
I do things how I want to do them.
For example, I have a solo practice.
I really didn't want to have businesspartners and deal with business partners.
And I love working with younger lawstudents, I have externs, but I didn't

(39:54):
want to have associates and spenda lot of my time training folks.
It's just not what I wantto spend my time doing.
And I've really stuck to that, and itmakes me really happy because I get to
spend a lot of time doing the thingsI love, which is networking, business
development, process development, andpracticing law, meeting with clients,
writing motions, preparing for trial.

(40:16):
And I love that.
And I have just a wonderful personallife, and Denver suits me, and I've
really carved out a practice and alife that brings me a lot of joy.
And I love being a lawyer.
I tell my students, every time I teach,I say to them, "You're taking a class
from someone who loves being a lawyer."
Not everyone loves beinga lawyer, but I really do.

Yeah.
That's such a great conversation, becausewe can get down on the legal profession,
that's a whole another podcast.
And there are ways to buildthe life that you want.
And I really respect that you have builta life around your passions and with
some balance and leaning into the joythat you can find even when you're doing
hard things, because the work that you dois not easy, but there can be joy in it

too.
Yes.
I really recommend young law students,or not even just young - people new
in their legal careers - think aboutsufficiency and what is enough.
I really think we get sort ofblindness when it comes to salaries.
Again, people asking me to lookat contracts - maybe not the best
idea based on my Contracts grade.
But people I've mentored, who aregetting these offers at BigLaw, making

(41:20):
money that I didn't make until I was10-12 years into my legal career.
And I think it does us all good toremember that there is enough money.
And I say this knowing a lot offolks need to pay off loans and that
life is expensive, but I think as aprofession people get golden handcuffs.
And I will say that we have colleaguesfrom law school that got golden handcuffs,

(41:42):
and it's hard to get the key and take thatkey back and take control of your life.
If you say, "Oh, I'm going to do this forfive years and then I'm going to do..."
It's not easy to go and get a districtattorney job after five years in BigLaw.
I see people try to do it allthe time, because there's a whole
bunch of people who have donetheir whole career doing that.
So, just think about,what is enough for you?

(42:02):
And I think a happy life is definitelysomething that's attainable for
attorneys, and for litigators, whichI think can be even more elusive.

Yeah.
Well, I so appreciate your time today.
This was so much fun.
We'll have to do it again.
And we're taping this rightbefore the Thanksgiving holiday.
So, have a wonderful holidayweekend with your family.
And I hope to have

you back soon!
Thanks, Lee.
It was really a treat.
Nice to talk to you.

If you enjoyed this episode of the Law School Toolbox podcast, please
take a second to leave a review andrating on your favorite listening app.
We'd really appreciate it.
And be sure to subscribeso you don't miss anything.
If you have any questions orcomments, please don't hesitate
to reach out to myself or Alisonat lee@lawschooltoolbox.com or
alison@lawschooltoolbox.com.
Or you can always contactus via our website contact

(42:48):
form at LawSchoolToolbox.com.
Thanks for listening, and we'll talk soon!

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