488: The Second Semester Job Hunt (w/Sadie Jones)

Episode Transcript
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Alison Monahan (00:01):
Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast.
Today, we're excited to have ex-BigLawrecruiter Sadie Jones here with us to
talk about the second semester job hunt.
Your Law School Toolbox hosttoday is Alison Monahan, and
typically, I'm with Lee Burgess.
We're here to demystify the law schooland early legal career experience,
so that you'll be the best lawstudent and lawyer you can be.

(00:22):
Together, we're the co-creators of the LawSchool Toolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and
the career-related website CareerDicta.
I also run The Girl's Guide to Law School.
If you enjoy the show, pleaseleave a review or rating on
your favorite listening app.
And if you have any questions,don't hesitate to reach out to us.
You can always reach us via thecontact form on LawSchoolToolbox.com,
and we'd love to hear from you.

(00:43):
And you can check out the Bar Exam Toolboxpodcast if the bar exam is on your radar.
And with that, let's get started.
Welcome back to the LawSchool Toolbox podcast.
Today we're excited to have ex-BigLawrecruiter Sadie Jones here with us to
talk about the second semester job hunt.

(01:06):
Welcome, Sadie.

Sadie Jones (01:07):
Thanks for having me back.

Oh, it's my pleasure.
Alright, so we are fairlyearly in the spring semester.
How concerned do you think students shouldbe if they don't have a summer job yet?
So, let's talk about 2Ls first.
And 2Ls probably could be ina lot of different positions.
Maybe they did OCI, it didn't pan out.
Maybe they're not interested in that.
At this point, is this a problem?

I would say it is something to be concerned about.
It does not mean that you are notgetting a job, but it means that you
need to be working really hard atit, because the further you get into
the spring without a job, obviouslythe harder it is going to be.
I always tell people thatI would never give up.
I would keep applying until you get tothe summer, if it really gets that bad.

(01:53):
But I would say if it's early springsemester, you need to be putting a lot of
effort into it, because a lot of peoplealready have jobs, and there're just going
to be fewer jobs available, and you needto be saying to yourself, "I need to be on
to like Plan C" of your A, B, and C plans.

Exactly.
At this point, Plan A and Plan B probablysailed, so it might be time to just
start looking for sort of whateveryou can get, which is definitely
going to be better than nothing.

Legal-related.
I feel like we're still at the pointwhere it's going to be legal-related.
Because I do think there's apoint where I say, "Is there
a professor you can work for?
Is there anything you can do?"
So, early spring semester,maybe we're not there yet.

Right.
I think at this point you shouldbe looking for a legal job that's
a legit full-time legal job.
It may not be paid, that'spretty normal at this point.
But yeah, you're not going to fall backon study abroad or something like that.

Which is always my last, last choice.

Exactly.
Alright, well, let's talk a littlebit about 1Ls, because for the
1L summer job, that's one thing.
And then sometimes we're even hearingfrom people who are concerned about maybe
they want to apply for OCI the next year,for their 2L summer, which seems a little
crazy to be thinking about this early.
But I mean, maybe it'snot so crazy these days.
What are your thoughts on 1Ls?

Yeah, it's not crazy at all.
Things are just moving really quickly.
So, I actually think that 1Ls sort ofneed to plan for their 1L and 2L summer.

Crazy!
At

this point.
And I know that's a lot, but I thinkthat's going to help you in the long run.
And I've said this before,but your 1L summer job is sort
of a freebie in certain ways.
The 1L summer job is less pressure, you'renot expecting a permanent job offer, it
is probably not going to be in BigLaw.

(03:45):
We've talked about some of the thingsyou're going to look for in it.
But you really do need to be thinkingahead then to the following summer,
where it is important becausethings just keep moving up and
you don't want to be left behind.

Yeah, so sometimes firms now are hiring summer associate positions
outside of on-campus interviewing.
On-campus interviewing itself keepsmoving backwards, backwards, backwards.
It's not really like the fall recruitinganymore; it's more summer recruiting.
So I do think peopleneed to be up on that.
We have some episodes you can go andlisten to, but if you are thinking

(04:19):
you want to apply for a BigLawsummer associate job for your 2L
summer, it is not crazy to startpositioning yourself for that already.

Absolutely.
And I was one of those people who wasn'treally pushing this before, but it really
changed in the last one to two years.
And I see 2L job openings, in terms oflistings, sometimes are starting in April.
And to be totally honest, peopleare hiring maybe half their
classes before OCI starts.

(04:49):
None of this is to panic anyone;it's just to be realistic.
And so, that is somethingto just be aware of.
all this depends onwhat you're looking for.
I am really talking mostly about BigLaw.
So I'm not saying everyone is hiringthat early, but if that's what
you're looking for, you just needto be aware of things moving up.
And this could all change.

(05:10):
This is where we are right now.

Right, yeah.
The typical 1L, if it's early inthe semester, the spring semester,
and you don't have a job yet,that's nothing to panic about.
There are going to be public interestcareer fairs and things like that
going on in the spring semester.
Frankly, BigLaw doesn't reallyhire that many 1Ls anyway.
Maybe they've hiredthem, maybe they haven't.
Some schools, they could be there.
There are a lot of options right now.

(05:33):
So I think you're in a different positionthan a 2L who really probably should
be thinking about having a job by now.
Whereas for the 1L, at least for thatfirst summer, like you said, you've
got some flexibility, and I don'tthink anybody needs to panic right now.

Yeah, I think you're right in the good spot.
If you're just still looking foryour 1L, you're not behind, you
shouldn't forget that you need a job.

Right.

But you're totally fine.
So remember that you can kindof just keep going with it,

basically.
Yeah.
Well, on that note, what stepsdo you think someone should take
now to be sure that they aregoing to have a summer job later?
We already touched on this with the2Ls - the 2L needs to be all in on this.
But what about the 1L?

The 1L, I would really focus on networking.
I would focus on making sureyou're applying to all the
jobs that are open to 1Ls.
I always say that thereis a job for every 1L.
I really believe that.
I mean, I think there'sa job for everyone.
But particularly 1Ls, alot of them are unpaid.
You should just make sure that you'removing through the process, you're

(06:41):
applying to everything, you're intouch with your career services.
Don't get too stuck on, "Thisis what I want to do long-term".
I think that's sometimes whattrips up 1Ls - they're like, "Well,
I don't want to do litigation,but there's a job with a judge."
And it's like, no, that'sa very typical 1L job.
You will get good experience.
It doesn't mean that you want tobe in the courtroom long-term.

(07:05):
So that's what I would sayyou should be focusing on.
And obviously make sure youknow everything you have,
like your job documents.
You're taking as much advantageof any practice interviewing that
you can, because 1Ls haven't hada lot of experience with that.
As much networking events.
Go to as many things as you can.

Yeah, I think that's solid advice.
And I think flexibility is reallythe key for the 1L job search.
Like you said, if you get an offer witha judge, for example, nobody's ever going
to look askew at that on your resume.
If it seems interesting to you, it'llbe an interesting life experience.
Just take it, have a goodsummer, maybe get a reference.
It doesn't really matter if youwant to go into corporate law later.

Exactly.
And I think the 1L,just don't be too picky.
I just think take the first one thatlooks pretty good, and you're good to go.
I wouldn't be waitingaround for the next one.

Yeah, I think that's fair.
Well, let's talk about a few scenariosthat I know we hear pretty frequently
from law students, whether 2Ls,1Ls, 3Ls, whatever: I've applied
to so many jobs and I'm not evengetting responses or interviews.

So, this I think, one, you need to look at your documents.
So, if you're applying to somany jobs, you need to look
at your resume particularly.
Your cover letter too,you need a writing sample.
You know I don't think writing samplesare the most important part of this.
One, I would look at all of that.

(08:39):
Is there something wrong on there?
And then two, I would look at, whatare the jobs you're applying to?
Because to me that also says maybe youare applying for jobs that are not in
your reach, if you're not hearing back.
So to me, those would be the two biggestissues if that's what's happening.
And also, when you say "somany", what do you mean?

(08:59):
Right.

That was going to be my first question, is,
what do you mean by that?
Because I've had people tell me "so manyjobs", and they're like, "I've applied
to at least 10 jobs in the last month."
And I'm like, "Yeah, that's not a lot,

actually."
So, it's late in the game let's saywe're talking about the 2L situation
- and it's late in the game and yousay you've applied to so many, I
want to know you applied to 300.

Yeah.
Like 300 legit jobs you're qualifiedfor that might have hired you.

Exactly.
And everyone has a differentdefinition of it, but I'm telling
you, it's got to be a lot.

Yeah.
I mean, I think anybody applyinghas applied to a lot of jobs.
And I think there's sometimes atendency just to scattershot-apply to
be like, "Okay, fine, you said 300.
So I applied to a hundred jobs yesterday."
And it's like, "Okay, well,were those legal jobs?
What were they?
How did you find a hundred jobsyesterday to apply to that maybe
you would have been qualified for?"

(09:55):
So, I think it is this calibrationof, you need to make sure that you're
applying to makes sense and youhave a reasonable shot at it, you're
somebody they might consider hiring.
Otherwise it's a waste of time.
But you can't get so fixated on,"Oh, I'm only applying for things
that would be the perfect fit for me.
And I'm going to be spendingfour days on each cover letter."
That also is not probably goingto get you where you need to go.

And then the opposite situation - don't count yourself
out for something that maybe you'reclose to being qualified for, but
you don't hit the mark everywhere.
I think that's another thing peoplekind of take themselves out of the
game, because they're like, "Oh, itsaid that it was a 3.4 GPA cutoff
and I'm a 3.

(10:39):
3."
And that's so wild to me.
Like, why would you not apply?

Or like a 3.39.

Yeah.

Okay, that's basically a four.

Yeah.
So, don't just automatically say,"Oh, I don't hit every mark."
Now, there might be things thatare just silly to waste your
time on, but I think people justcan go all directions with this.
And you've got to be smart about it.

Yeah.
And I'd say this is some place to gotalk to career services or talk to
a career coach or something, becauseif you are applying to jobs you're
basically qualified for and you're notgetting any responses or any interviews,
there's something wrong in the documentssomething in the way that you're either
shaping your story or there're justglaring typos or whatever it might be.

(11:24):
But if you're not getting any hits,then you need to have somebody take an
objective look at that and tell you whythey think that is, and then fix it.

And don't be defensive about it.
Listen to the feedback honestly.

Yeah.
If you're not getting anyresults, there is a problem.
So, you've got to understand whatthat problem is and correct it.
And maybe nobody really totally knows,but you can try a couple of different
iterations of things and see, "Was itthis framing that's causing the problem?
Let me change that andsee if I get any options."
But you've got to start kind ofiterating through and experimenting
to find something that worksbetter, because obviously what

(11:58):
you're doing is not working.

Totally agree.
And I think bringing in justfresh eyes can be helpful here.

Yeah.
Even somebody who's not a lawyer,just hand them a job description, hand
them your documents and say, "Wouldyou call me back for this position?"
And if they're like, "I don'treally understand how your
resume fits the position.
Wait, do you have that experience?"
Any questions that they're askingare basically points that you
could probably make better.

Absolutely.

Alright, well, let's talk about our next scenario
number of interviews, but no offers.
What might be going on here?

So, generally in that situation - again, first
of all, what's a decent number?
So, you have to know how many.
Yeah, if you had two callbacks and yougot no offers, that's not surprising.
If you had eight, that's surprising to me.
So that means something's notgoing right with the interview.
That's where, again, I would bringsomebody in and I would do some practice.

(12:59):
I would do a practice interview, Iwould talk about how you think it's
going, I would talk about anythingyou think's come up on your end
that you know isn't going well.
Are you just really nervous?
Do you need to just practice more?
I've talked to people about justhaving more general conversations with
strangers, just to get more comfortable.

(13:20):
It's like a people skills thing.
Now, there's a chance that you just wereunlucky and that you were competing as
other people that were a better fit.
That can happen, but I think youhave to look at the situation and
say, "Is there something going onwith the way I'm interviewing?"

I think that's fair.
And I do actually think it's interesting.
I think people's social skills to acertain extent may have atrophied in the
pandemic, and particularly, if they wereat kind of crucial life stages during
the pandemic, where you didn't havethose experiences of going out in the
world and talking to different peopleand learning how to interact with people.
So I do think that'sactually a really good idea.

(13:59):
I mean, at first glance, you're like,"Talking to the barista, that's not
going to get me a job interview."
But the reality is, peoplewho can talk to anyone usually
do really well in interviews.
I was a great interviewee when I did it.
I got tons of job offers, but it's becauseof the fact that I have a podcast now.
I can talk to anyone.
But some of that is a skill.
I was actually reading an interestingbook on negotiation recently, and

(14:22):
he was talking about specific waysto build trust and things like that.
And so, if this is something that youknow that you struggle with, that maybe
you just come off a little unfriendlyor hard to work with or whatever
it is, there are ways that you cansort of train yourself to present
better, basically, in an interview.

(14:43):
And you may have to practice answersto questions and things like that,
that you know maybe come off not sogreat, because people are definitely
hiring a lot based on kind of fit.
And if you're not getting thoseoffers, there's probably some reason.

And again, you have to really not be defensive if
you're getting feedback on this.

Yeah.

Especially if you're hiring somebody or you're working with the career
services or whoever it is, you're askingfor help, whether you're paying them or
not - listen to what they have to say.
And I think you really need to say,"Okay, and what would you suggest?"
And I think the other thing is,people get into their head they're
an introvert, or they're not a peopleperson, or they're not good at this.

(15:27):
And like you said, you canwork on almost all of it.
So don't get stuck in your head, "Thisis who I am, I'm not good at this."
It's just practice.

Yeah.
I think because this does sometimes gettermed "people skills", people think,
"Oh well, this is how my brain works.
There's nothing I can do about it.
This is just the person I am."
And we're not asking you tochange your entire personality
and be someone you're not.
Basically, we're saying there may besome rough edges that need to be kind
of polished a little bit, or just waysthat you might say things that are more

(15:59):
sort of receptive or not defensive.
And certain questions, particularlyif you've done a decent number of
interviews, you kind of know what peopleare going to be asking at this point.
So, if there are questions youstruggled with in the past, you can
prep answers and kind of work on those.
You don't want to sound likeyou've memorized it, but there's
definitely an art form to having aninterview answer that you give in

(16:22):
every single interview, because theyalways ask you the same question.
And you've planned it out, but you'veplanned it out with the correct
intonation, so it doesn't soundlike you're just reading a script.

Which I was going to say, actually, I find sounding
like you're reading a script canbe some people's biggest problem.
And I hear it so much.
So I always say, don't practice theexact same question every single time.
I always suggest practicing yourstories that are general enough that
they can be used for different things.

(16:55):
But I totally agree.
I know it's hard.
It's like, practice, butdon't practice too much.

It's a line.
For example, if somebody has onereally terrible 1L grade, it's
likely somebody might ask about that.
You might be asked more than once.
Or if there's somethingweird on your resume.
My resume was strange, so every interviewI had, I got a variation of the question
of, "Huh, Sociology, to Architecture,to Programming, to law school.

(17:25):
Huh, tell me about that."
So I had an answer ready to go, andbasically I gave the same answer
every time, but it sounded like Iwasn't just reading off a script.
And I kind of developed it over time.
I saw what the reactions were, I saw whatseemed to resonate, and it got better and
better the more times I gave that answer.
You know what's thenumber one question that

I hear students struggle with?
"Tell me something about yourself."

Yeah, I know, which seems so easy.

No one knows how to answer that.
"Tell me how you got to law school."

Right, like "Why law school?"
There needs to be a solid answer to that.
You

need to prepare that.
I don't know why everyonejust doesn't know what to do.
You can go in chronologicalorder, forwards or backwards.
What do you want to focus on?
You have to work on it.

Right.
You basically need to workshopthese obvious questions if you're
flailing through interviews.
Obviously sometimes you're going to getlike a wild card where you don't know
what to say, and then you need to practicetechniques for buying time, like "Oh,
that's a really interesting question.
Let me think about that for a second."
And I think the other thing is,this is a conversation, so sometimes

(18:33):
people either don't have any questionsor they're just kind of not really
engaging in a conversation, becausethey have so many things they want
to put on the table and get out thereand they feel like, "I've prepped
these answers and I must say them."
So, I do like that idea of just kindof talking to strangers and learning
to ask good questions and kind of beengaged in a conversation, because

(18:54):
that's part of what this is about.

Yeah, you need to listen to the answer and go in that direction.
You cannot have things that youabsolutely feel like you have to say.
It's just, that always goes wrong.

Yeah.
And I think a great question ifyou're in an interview is like, "Oh,
I'd love to learn more about thetype of work that you do in a day."
That kind of thing.
But then, like you said, when somebodyanswers you, you can't just immediately
move on to the next question.
You want to follow up like, "Oh,that sounds really interesting.
Was that a difficult brief to write?
What was challenging about that?"
The more the other persontalks, oftentimes the better.

Be engaged, be in it.
And I totally get it, it's like thatthing where you ask someone their name
and then you weren't listening to whatthey said, so you don't know their name.
We've all done that, so I get it.
But in an interview, be in themoment, because I bet even if you
think you don't have an answer,if you're really listening, you'll

(19:49):
be able to come up with one.

Right.
So I think, identify the possible problempoints in your background, whatever
they might be, and everyone has them.
And it could be like, "Oh, lawschool is a second career for you.
Why did you decide to switch?"
Or, "You came straight out of undergrad.
What work experience do you have?"
Everybody has something.
And it can be completely on any sideof the spectrum, but you want to
be prepared in a natural soundingway to talk about those things.

Absolutely.
One other thing about this is, thisactually could go back to what we talked
about before, about where you're applying.
Even if you're getting theinterviews, are you applying to
places where you don't really fit in?
So, I think that is somethingto think about here too.
Are you applying to places thatyou feel like are just "the best"?
But when you actually go inand they meet you, maybe both

(20:36):
of you realize it's not a fit.
So, that's one other thing Iwould think about, about getting
interviews and not getting offers.

Yeah.
And I think particularly if it's likea safety place, you want to make sure
that you're really conveying actualenthusiasm for this particular job.
Because if they think, "Oh, thisperson's at some fancy school, they're
not really going to take this offer",but you really actually would for
whatever reason, you need to convey that.

Absolutely.
All that stuff comes across, even ifyou're actively trying to hide it.

Right.
Anytime you go into an interview,you should go in with the idea that,
"I want to get this job offer, I'mgoing to do what I can to get it.
I'm going to be enthusiastic, I'm goingto do my research, I'm going to be
prepared, and I'm going to convey whyI think this would be a good option
and I would be a good fit for them."
And then if you turn itdown - fine, you turn it down.
But at least you had the job.

If you can't do that, you shouldn't be going to the interview.

Yeah, it's like a waste of everyone's time.

Alright, well, our final question here: I've had some offers, but I turned them (21:31):
undefined
down because I'm waiting for my dream job.
What do you think about this?

Okay, this depends on where we are, right?
But we're at a point, probablywith both of these situations,
where you shouldn't be there.
I think it's just a big risk.
It's like a risk you can take ifthat's what you really believe.
And I've definitely talked tostudents who feel strongly about this.
I don't think it's a good idea.

(22:02):
I also don't think that there's adream job, I don't believe that.
I think you got it in your headthat this was your dream job.
And sometimes just taking a joband going with it, it works out
and you get your dream job later.
So, it does depend on where you are in theprocess, but generally, for where we're
talking about, I would just be taking theoffer if you feel like it's a solid job.

(22:26):
If you have your dream job that is inthe works and you can say, "Oh, can I
have an extra week to think about it?"
- that's different.
But if you haven't even gotten aninterview at your dream job and you're
like, "I just need to keep turningthese down until I get that" - I just
don't think it's going to work out.
And that's a huge risk, and Iwouldn't really feel that bad for

(22:48):
that person if it's really late inthe game and they don't have a job.
It's like, "Well, you hada bunch of job offers."

Yeah.
I think at some point you'vegot to be more strategic and
just say, "You know what?
This is a good enough joband I can learn something.
I can put it on my resume and it'sa lot better than having nothing.
So, I'm going to take it andI'm going to be happy about it."

Also, this is the beginning of your career, in
either of these situations, right?
There is always a way toget to where you want to go.
You may just not start there.

I think that's so true.
I look at people I know and their careerpaths, and often the ones who've ended
up happiest and frankly oftentimes mostsuccessful in the legal profession are
ones who had a really meandering path.
Maybe they didn't get what theythought they wanted in the beginning
and they just kept working on it overtime and worked their way into things
that actually were a really good fitand they were really successful at.

I totally agree.
And I don't know, when people say"dream job", I always think, "Do
you really know what that is?"

I know.
I had what people thinkwere various dream jobs.
They were horrible.

Yeah, exactly.

That dream was a nightmare, actually.

Yeah.
And I'm a big believer injust making a decision.
I don't think there's aright and a wrong decision.
It's just, you made a decision andyou can make another one later.

I think that's so true, particularly at this point.
I mean, if it's like the beginning ofOCI, I might give you different advice,
but if you're in the middle, early tomiddle of the spring semester, it's
time to just be like, "You know what?
I have a job offer andI'm happy that I have it.
Thank you very much."

I am so with you.

Alright.
Before we wrap up, one morequestion: How important is it that
my LinkedIn either, a) exists,or b) matches my other documents?

Very important on both fronts.
So, you need a LinkedIn.
And I know that law students don't allhave LinkedIn and aren't using it as much
as people in other professions or peoplewho are further down the road, because
I think they're very stuck in law schooland they think everything's kind of
going to be done for them in law school.

(24:53):
But there's an outside world thatuses LinkedIn for all their job stuff.
So, you need one.
It should have a professional picture.
You don't need to get a professionalphotographer, but you should
look fairly professional in it.
So if someone can just take a picture,a closeup of you, that's fine.
So you should have that.
It should have your law school, yourundergrad, whatever jobs you've done.

(25:15):
I would have it match your resume in termsof - I've talked about this - you don't
need every summer job you had in highschool or college or anything like that.
So it should look professional,and it should be up to date.
So you should update it thesame way you update your resume.
People shouldn't look atit and it's years old.

Right.
Basically, a) they should be able to findit, and b) they shouldn't look at it and
be like, "Wait, is this the same person?"
It should be clear if you havea resume in front of you that,
okay, this is the same person.
Because people do look.
I think HR people particularly loveLinkedIn, they just want to cross check
that you exist, that kind of thing.
It doesn't have to be super elaborate;it just has to basically match

(25:53):
everything else you're putting out there.

You can also link to it, you can have it on your resume.
I think that's a good idea, becausea lot of people have the same name.
You don't want them to have tomake a big deal to find you.

Yeah, I think it's good just to put it out
there and be like, "This is me.
Here I am."

Obviously, don't put your other social media.
We're just talking about LinkedIn.

Yeah.
Unless you're applying for likean influencer job, which you're
probably not if you're in law school.
Alright, well, any finalthoughts before we wrap up here?

My final thought is that I think people kind of get discouraged,
especially the people where it'slate in the game, and sometimes
that can kind of cause them to justbe frozen and not know what to do.
And it's kind of thisself-fulfilling prophecy.
So, just know that thereis a job out there.
You just keep going.

(26:40):
Don't get so focused on, "Otherpeople have jobs and I don't yet,
and so there's nothing for me."
You just need to keep movingforward, and you'll figure it out.

Yeah, I think that's great advice.
And get help if you need it.
Your school's careeroffice is there for you.
For more career help, you canalso work one-on-one with us.
You can check out CareerDicta.com.
There are people who can help you.
But I do think you've got to listen towhat the advice they're giving you is.
Maybe try to implement it and keep pushingforward, because like you said, everybody

(27:13):
basically finds something in the end.
Alright, well, thank youso much for joining us.

Thanks for having me.

My pleasure.
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If you have any questions or comments,please don't hesitate to reach out to
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(27:41):
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