496: The Early BigLaw Recruiting Timeline (w/Sadie Jones)

Episode Transcript
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Alison Monahan (00:01):
Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast.
Today, we're excited to haveex-BigLaw recruiter Sadie Jones
here with us to talk about the earlytimeline for BigLaw summer jobs.
Your Law School Toolbox hosttoday is Alison Monahan, and
typically, I'm with Lee Burgess.
We're here to demystify the law schooland early legal career experience,
so that you'll be the best lawstudent and lawyer you can be.

(00:22):
Together, we're the co-creators of the LawSchool Toolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and
the career-related website CareerDicta.
I also run The Girl's Guide to Law School.
If you enjoy the show, pleaseleave a review or rating on
your favorite listening app.
And if you have any questions,don't hesitate to reach out to us.
You can always reach us via thecontact form on LawSchoolToolbox.com,
and we would love to hear from you.

(00:44):
And you can check out the Bar Exam Toolboxpodcast if the bar exam is on your radar.
And with that, let's get started.
Welcome back to the LawSchool Toolbox podcast.
Today, we're excited to haveex-BigLaw recruiter Sadie Jones
here with us to talk about the earlytimeline for BigLaw summer jobs.

(01:07):
Welcome, Sadie.

Sadie Jones (01:08):
Thanks for having me back.

My pleasure.
Well, just for some background, tellme why we're even talking about this.
What's going on here?

Well, I think that in the last two years, the timeline for 2L
recruiting has continually moved up.
And I have to say I was sortof a skeptic two years ago that
this was going to continue.
But at this point, I'm a believer.
So, I wouldn't tell my students, "Oh,you can wait for OCI if you want to." I'd

(01:38):
really say you need to get ahead of this.
And this is just how it is at this point.

Okay, and when are firms opening these positions?

Now.
So, we're talking in March, andI've already seen 2L positions open.
I would say it's not all exactly thesame, but generally it's happening
March, April, and May at the latest.

Okay, so they're really doing this even before the
schools are starting their OCI.

Way before.
And I know that this is hard, becauseobviously students are focused on
classes, and the timeline seems absurd.
And some people are looking for their1L summer jobs still, and we're talking
about the same population of peoplethat now are looking at 2L jobs.
But that is what it is.
Now, the jobs are open.

(02:27):
It doesn't mean that everyone's applyingor that they're going to be filled
in the next two weeks or something.
But they are available to send yourapplication in, so some people will.

Right.
And at this point 1Ls only haveone semester, typically, of grades.
So that's interesting.
Do you think that they might wait insome cases to see second semester grades?

Yeah.
I think if you're a superstar, andit's very clear that you're doing
really well in school, I thinkthey could make you an offer before
they see second semester grades.
But I think for most people, theymay look at your application and
consider some people to interview.
But I think similar to kind of how 1Lrecruiting has always been, which is

(03:10):
that a lot of times they'll talk to youbefore you have your grades in and then
you just submit your grades and they kindof look at it in January, even if you
talk to them in December similar here.
I think a lot of them willhave to wait for grades.

Yeah, I remember that from the 1L recruiting.
I think I applied December 1st andthen I got a few people asking, and
I sent a few grades and then they'relike, "Oh, we want to see the whole
transcript", that kind of thing.
So yeah, it probably depends, but ifyou're top of your class at a very top
school, after one semester, most likelythey're going to say, "You know what?
We might just snap this person up now."

Exactly.
So I think it will depend, but I want toput this out there because there will be
people that are applying now, in March.

Right.
And how many people or whatpercentage do you think are firms
filling before they even get to OCI?

So, my understanding is that 50% is sort of an average for how
much of the class has been filled beforeOCI, but there's going to be a range.
It's going to depend on the firm.
And we don't know for sure what's goingto happen this year, but that is what's
happened in the last couple of years.

Right.
So, I think the message here is, ifsomebody thinks that they're going
to be aiming for this 2L summerposition, the time to really get
serious about this seems to be now.
Is that right?

Yeah.
And I don't want to alarm anyone.
And not everyone is going to applyright at the beginning, in the same
way that not everyone applies for 1Ljobs right at the beginning either.
So it's not that there won't beany spots, it's not that they
won't hire anyone from OCI.
It's just that I think the bar is goingto be very high for where you are.

(04:53):
And so, I think if you're middleof the road, then you need to
definitely be applying earlier.

Right.
Yeah, it's an interestingdevelopment, because for so long it
was just like, you show up to OCI,that's what you need to focus on.
For people who aren't familiar withthat sort of on-campus interviewing,
where firms actually physically came.
And then COVID started changing that alittle bit, and they were interviewing
remotely and things like that.
And I guess at some point, firmsdecided, "Hey, if we can do these remote

(05:21):
interviews and whatnot, why are weeven going to fill 100% of our class
at these schools?" Maybe we can talkto other people in a different way."

Exactly.
So I think that is what kicked this off.
I don't think there's a set rule thatit's going to continue or it's going to
be exactly the same every single year.
But I think the reality is that if firmssee other firms are doing it and are
filling their classes this way, theyfeel like they don't want to be behind.
And it's this cycle, wherethey have to do it also.

(05:51):
So, I just think that the realityis that it's risky to sort of wait
to start the process until OCI.

Right, for sure.
I mean, I think the process is what it is.
So if you are going to be in that process,you just want to be familiar with what you
need to be doing, so that you don't wakeup six months from now and say, "Oh, I
thought now is when I should be looking atthis." And that ship has already sailed.

Exactly.
And if you've sort of made a consciousdecision that you cannot be applying
now because you need to focus onschool - and obviously, your grades
are most important - that's like aconscious decision you've made, but you
should go in with the information thatthat's a little bit of a riskier move.

Right.
And in some ways, I think it maybeopens up opportunities for people
from schools that are outsideof the kind of tier of OCI-type
schools to say, "Hey, you know what?
I'm going to get my resume in thereand they can look at me along with
everybody else early" versus, "Oh,they're going to go recruit at
Harvard, and if they have any spacesleft, maybe I can fill one of them."

Exactly.
So I agree, I think this is an opportunityand you can be a go-getter here and
look at it as a positive, rather thanto make you anxious about needing
to be doing it right this second.
I think you can say, "Hey, I can getin early and get myself seen in a way
that I might not have been able toduring a very traditional OCI process."

Right.
Because even at top schools, Iremember people, for whatever reason,
just didn't have the opportunity tointerview with the firm they wanted.
And then they had to go track down therecruiter in the hallway or whatnot
and say, "I really, really, reallywant to get on your radar." And that
was kind of the only way to do it.
So this democratizesthe process in a sense.

I think so too.
I also think that you could say toyourself, "I'm not ready to apply to
everything or I'm not totally readyto interview yet, but I want to start
making connections and reaching out."So I think you could just say, "Hey,
I'm going to start networking earlier,go to events earlier." Because they
are all having events earlier too,is the other thing to keep in mind.

(08:00):
So I would say you can hitthis at different levels.

And do you have any thoughts on if you are at a school
that does OCI and you know thata certain firm you're interested
in is going to be coming to that?
Should you go ahead and apply?
Or is that a downside?
Is it an upside?
I can see arguments allover the place for that.

Yeah, I could see it going either way.
I think it would depend whether you thinkyou have a good shot at the firm, you
know you're a really strong candidate.
But I think if you're not really sure,then I would probably apply earlier.
If you feel very confident aboutit, then maybe you wait for OCI and
it won't really make a difference.
But I don't think you're going to be ina worse situation from applying earlier.

Yeah.
I was just imagining if I apply and theysay "no", but I would also imagine a
lot of these firms, if they know they'recoming to your campus, they might just
say, "Hey, we'll talk to you then."

I think there is a lot of that, and there always has been a lot
of that sort of putting people off.
Like sometimes you'd meet somebody ata career fair and not be sure, but say,
"Oh, we'd love to meet you at OCI down theroad." So, I think it would be similar.

Yeah, that's what I would imagine.

Also, if it's a flat out "no", I think it would
have been a "no" later too.

That's fair.
I mean, if they're like, "No, absolutelynot, your grades are not what we're
looking for", it's like, well, you justopened up a slot for yourself at OCI
for someone who might be more suitable.

Exactly.
Or maybe it's, "If you really improvespring semester and we don't have
your grades yet, you can reapply."

Right.
Yeah, that's true.
That would be valid, saying "Hey, I knowthat you guys rejected me because my
first semester grades weren't the best,but as you can see, I had a real upward
trend second semester." I mean, I thinka lot of firms will be open to that.

I think so, too.
And I wouldn't say that all the time,but in this situation, I think if
your grades aren't in yet and youfeel pretty confident, I think it's
worth bringing up with them, if youfeel like grades are the main issue.

Right.
Yeah, if it's clear that they're lookingfor a 3.5 and you're a 3.0 after the first
semester, that's not really that close.

Or it just didn't go well and they didn't like you - then they
may just say, "Thanks, but no thanks."

Yeah, exactly.
Let's talk a little more broadly aboutwhat you're seeing in the market.
Obviously, the economy, I thinkit's fair to say is a little shaky.
Definitely a lot of movement up anddown, a lot of unpredictability.
I mean, are firms reacting to this?

I think that ever since the financial crash of 2009, firms
have always tried to be a little onthe conservative side with hiring.
And there'd been other bubbles wherethey did this, but I think that
really changed the market completely.
So I do think that they react to thosesituations by saying, "We're going to be
conservative and hire smaller classes."No, I don't think there's a drastic

(10:36):
change, especially in BigLaw, but Ithink that you are going to find that the
criteria is going to be higher, they maybe fine with a smaller class, or they may
say, "Oh, we're looking for this number,but if we get fewer, that's fine too."

Right.

And the other thing to keep in mind that I realized was that a lot
of people who have been laid off fromgovernment jobs or had summer government
jobs and are very strong candidates andnow are in the market are competing with
people for jobs they wouldn't have before.
So, it's just something to keepin mind, that there are more

(11:13):
people looking for jobs now.

Right.
Yeah, I think that's fair.
Definitely, if there're strongcandidates in the market for kind
of entry level, first to third-yearassociate, suddenly, if I'm a partner,
I might be thinking, "You know what?Maybe I don't need such a big summer
class. Maybe I can hire a couple ofthese people and they've already got
experience." So yeah, I agree with you.
I don't think it's going to be likean apocalypse for class sizes, but

(11:38):
I also don't think it's going tobe kind of a huge boom year where
they're like, "We'll hire anybody."

Exactly.
So I think what to keep in mindin terms of your overall strategy
is, don't just apply to reaches.
I would be probably pretty realisticand conservative in terms of where you
think you can actually get an offer.

Yeah.
And I think in some ways applyingearlier, before OCI, when you're going
to do OCI could actually be helpfulfor that, because you can really see
what kind of response you're getting.
So, if you're not getting any responsesthat are positive, that might tell
you like, "Okay, I might need to scaleback my OCI bids into things that are
really in my wheelhouse or that I'moverqualified for", versus going out there

(12:19):
and saying, "Oh, these are my dream jobs.
I'm only going to apply to thesejobs", when you haven't gotten
a lot of positive feedback.

I totally agree, and I think it gives you more time to figure it out.
And like we always talk about, is it thatyou're not getting initial interviews?
Are you getting some interviewsand not getting offers?
You can see where going wrongin the process, to see what you
may need to adjust, with plentyof time in the season left.

Right.
And I think that's, again, kindof a benefit, that if you do get
those first-round interviews and youdon't get callbacks - okay, is there
something going on in your interviewingthat you need to work with career
services, you need to work with acoach, you need to work with us on?
What is happening?
Versus, you're sending them allout and you're getting all "no"s,
they're just getting ignored andit's like, okay, is that your grades?
Is there a problem with your resume?

(13:05):
What is it that's going on here?

Exactly.
So I think that'ssomething to keep in mind.
But as I always say, grades inschool come first, because that's
going to affect everything.
So I do think you have to be realistic.
What can you do while still inyour important spring semester?

Oh, for sure, because those are the grades you're
going to be essentially riding onif this doesn't work out early.
And it's probably not going towork out early unless you already
did really well first semester.

Exactly.
But I think that even if you have to workreally hard at school and you're busy, you
can probably find time to do some type ofjob work throughout the spring semester.
So that's what I'd askyourself, is, what's realistic?

Yeah.
I'd say at a minimum, you probably needto go set an appointment up, talk to
career services, get their take on whatyou should be thinking about, what you
should be applying for, get a read onyour resume, your cover letter, your
writing sample, all of these things.
And then carve out three or four hourson a weekend afternoon to actually,
maybe one, the first weekend you generateyour list of where you're going to apply

(14:06):
and you have to go to these differentwebsites, presumably now, to figure
out if they're taking applications.
Basically, you've got to figure outwhere you're going to find these jobs.
And then maybe the next weekendyou actually apply for them.
So it doesn't have to be thisincredibly overwhelming process,
but I do think doing some of it nowis probably going to pay off later.

Exactly.
And I would take advantage ofany events that you see on campus
with firms or opportunities formock interviews, things like that.
Make sure you're talking to yourcareer services about what's going
on, because they're going to bealways the most updated, in terms
of when firms are posting theirjobs and how the market's looking.

(14:45):
So, make sure you're in touch withthem, whether or not you think
they're helping you, because I hearmixed things at different schools.
I still always say that it's importantto have a good relationship with
them, and to at least be trying.
So, take advantage of all ofthose opportunities that you get
as a law student, because yourschool wants you to find a job.
That's for sure.

Oh, they love it if you find a BigLaw job.
That's like their dream for you.
Whether you like that dream ornot, that is their dream for you.

Exactly.
So you might as well take advantage ofthat and get whatever you can out of it.
And so, at the very least, all ofyour documents should be updated at
this point, and you should continueto update them as things change.
But if you have your 1L job secured,make sure it's on your resume.
You know that that's what you'regoing to be doing this summer.
So, at least make sure that youhave things available to give

(15:35):
people if the opportunity arises.

Right.
And I think if you go to one ofthose networking events, bring some
copies of your resume on paper.
And if anyone expresses any interestin talking with you further, be like,
"Oh, I'd love to give you my resume."

Exactly.
Make sure your LinkedIn is updated.

Oh yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
We've seen some resumes recently with lawstudents and we're like, "Where's your
LinkedIn?" and they're like," I don't haveone." We have episodes on that, I think.
You should have a LinkedIn at this point.
And I would say if you don't, that'sprobably one of the biggest things
to prioritize, is just getting atleast that basic profile up, with a
professional looking photo, with thebasic information that is on your

(16:14):
resume, because that needs to match.

And you can take a professional looking photo now
with your phone and another personhelping you, and that's all you need.
So much stuff can just be doneyourself and look very polished.
So make sure that it's available,easy to find for the firm, and
matches everything on your resume.

Yeah.
I mean, if I were thinking about,"Okay, I'm a busy student. I have a lot
going on, but I want to try to get thisdone", I would be thinking one weekend
day, figure out what I'm going to do.
What is my basic process?
What is my basic plan?
Next weekend day, set up myLinkedIn if I don't have that.
Just finalize my resume.
And then maybe the next weekend it'sactually start applying to jobs.
It doesn't have to be thiscrazy overwhelming thing.

Exactly.
And I think the reality is, it's not thatthere won't be any hiring once the summer
comes and it's more actual OCI time.
It's just that, ideally, if youcould get a job before then,
you'd be in a better position.
But if it doesn't work out, it's notlike all of this was a waste, because
it got you all of this practice, andit got you more information, and you'll

(17:21):
be ready for the OCI season also.
I think that it has to belike a two-prong approach.

Yeah, I think anything you can do that gets you more familiar with
the process is definitely going to help.
I remember showing up to my firstinterview at OCI and it was the summer
in New York and it was super hot.
And I'm on the subway andI'm like sweating everywhere.
And that was not the greateststart that if I'd had a little more
background experience, I might havebeen able to roll with that a little
better and not be like, "Oh mygosh, what have I just gotten into?"

Exactly.
And just having practice, Ithink, just makes everything
easier, and you get less nervous.

Yeah, exactly.
You can go into it being like, "Okay,I know I've done this before. I know
the type of things they're goingto be asking me." And if they ask
you something in one of these earlyinterviews that you're not prepared
for, use that as a learning opportunity.
Say, "Hey, I did not have agreat answer to that question.
I need to work on that answer."

And it's better to know that in April than it
is to find that out in July.

Right.
I mean, the old school OCI process is, youdo multiple interviews in a single day.
I think it's spread out maybe a littlemore now that some of them are virtual.
But if you are bombing interviewsone, two, three, and four, and that's
all before lunch, that's not great.

Exactly.
So, I think I agree that this gives youa lot of time to sort of work on things
and strategize and come up with a plan.

Yeah, absolutely.
And, as we talked about, thisprobably won't go on forever.
There'll probably come someother shifts, who knows?
We never know.
We're just talking about what thesituation is currently, in March of 2025.
But yeah, I think, the basicidea of just, this is what it
is, just get yourself together ifyou want to do it, roll with it.
But do get started, because weare in March, and as time passes,

(19:05):
it's going to pass quickly.
Exams are going to be coming up,so it's not like you're going
to have that much time later todeal with it than you do now.

Exactly.
So, I think it's just to let you knowthat this is where the market is right
now and so you can make the best decisionfor yourself about what you want to do.

Yeah.
And if you don't understand theOCI process, we have lots of early
podcast episodes explaining what isthe callback, what is the initial
interview, what are they looking for?
We will link to those,you can go listen to them.
I feel like we have a lot on this topic.

We definitely do.
So this is just adding in anaddendum for, okay, this is the
world we're living in right now.

Yeah, at this exact moment.
Who knows what tomorrow will bring?

Exactly.
And we did all of these during COVID, andhad to adjust, and that's just how it is.
Things are more unpredictablethan they used to be.

Yeah, things are definitely changing all the time.
And I think a lot of the COVID onesare probably relevant here too, because
some of these interviews I'm guessingthey're probably not going to fly you
out for a first-round interview in April.
Maybe they will, but probably not.

Exactly.
And if they are, then you're probablythe kind of person who's going
to have a million job offers andwon't have to work as hard at it.
But yeah, it's mostlyjust going to be virtual.

Yeah.
And if I were in law school, I wouldliterally go to the career services and
be like, "How strong of a candidate doyou think I am?" I don't know if they'll
answer that, but part of this is, you'vegot to get a read on how desirable a
candidate are you, and should you justtake the first thing that comes along?
Are you going to be totally safe waiting?
I think these are the hard decisions here.

And I think you have to be realistic, and you have to hear
the answer, and you have to not takeit personally, because when someone
tells you, "You're not going to bethe strongest candidate, and so these
places you really, really want aregoing to be a reach, and here's where
I think is more realistic" hear that.
And it doesn't mean there isn't a wayfor you to get to where you want to
get to long term, but you are whereyou are right now, and it's better

(21:05):
to be prepared and be realistic.

Right.
And there're sometimes situationswhere we might be working with someone
and they get an offer and they're notsure if they should take it and we're
like, "You should definitely take thisoffer. You should thank your lucky
stars that this fell out of the skyfor you, and take it and move on." You
can probably get something that youwant more, but obviously that's a risk.
But we think it's a risk that wouldbe reasonable for you to take.

Exactly, and not everyone hears that, and you can only give
them your sort of best advice.
And if they regret that later, hopefullythey'll learn something from it when
a decision like that comes up again.
But I will say, generally inthis market, I wouldn't be super
picky, or I wouldn't be waitingaround for a lot of other things.
It obviously depends on yourpersonal situation, but generally,

(21:54):
having a decent job locked in isgoing to be worth a lot these days.

I really think that's true.
I mean, who knows what anything is goingto look like months and months from now.
This is more than a year away.
That's a very long time, I feel like,at this point in time to try to predict.
Every day is a very long time,

so a year just sounds like a very long time.

Very.
And this goes back to what we've talkedabout before, too, is you shouldn't
be applying to jobs you don't want.

Yes, exactly.
Or you will not take.

Yeah.
If there's a job where you're like, "Iwould not take this job, or I would be
very sad if I had to take this job" - atthis point, don't even apply to it.
We're so early in the processthat you should not be applying to
things that you'd be like completelybummed out if you had to do.

Let's say that you get an offer for the first job
you applied to - I feel like youshould be prepared to take it.

I totally agree.

Otherwise, like you said, don't apply.
So I always think that's strangeand that comes up a lot, but that's
not how the world works right now.

No, I agree.
I don't want to say it's insultingto turn it down, but I don't
think it looks super great.
I know sometimes, at least withjudges, schools really pressure people
to take the first offer they get.
And it's like a big dealif you turn them down.
I don't think firms are quite like that.
But it's not what anybody wants.
The ideal is, you apply for jobs you'reexcited for, you get the offer, you

(23:15):
take the offer, the firm's excitedabout you, you're excited about them.
That's what we're going for here, ideally.

I agree.
And I do think that this idea that"This one might be better" - I
just think you'll never know.
So I think there's something to besaid for taking the job and not having
to worry about it for the next sixmonths, when everyone else is applying.
That sounds great to me.
You can just relax, you're like,"I've already locked this down,

I've got my everything dialed in, you guys
have fun spending all this time andenergy doing all these interviews.
I'm already done." I thinkthat would be amazing.

Yeah, and I tell students that all the time.

Well, the other thing is it actually legitimately frees
up a lot of time and energy for youto do something else, whether that's
study more or get involved in anorganization or do pro bono work.
There're so many things thatyou could be spending time on.
Why would you want to be spending themstressing out about getting a summer job?

I agree.
I think it just takesa lot of pressure off.
So that's something to keep in mind,versus, "Oh well, there's another firm
that's really my dream." And you have noidea if that would be a better job or not.

Yeah.
No, I've worked like dream jobs thatwere nightmares, and other ones where I
was like, "Whatever, this seems fine."And I actually really enjoyed it.

And you can make a different decision next time.
This is the first one or the second one.

Yeah, this is not necessarily your
permanent position for life.
Everyone knows that.
Really, if you get any type of job offerhere, probably just be happy about it.
Take it, move on.

I agree.

Alright.
Well, any final thoughtsyou'd like to share?

My final thought is, I'd also really suggest
staying in your own lane on this.
I think there's a lot of chatter rightnow between law students and I hear
a lot, "My classmates are all lockingthings in", or they're doing X and Y, and
I always say you actually have no idea.
It's just something you heardor something they're saying.
You don't know all the facts.

(25:02):
And so, I would say, kind of stay out ofall of that chatter, focus on your goals,
where you're applying, what your planis, stick with it, and do your absolute
best to stay out of it, because they'rejust going to make you nervous, and you
have no idea what's really going on.
So, we've talked about this before,about staying on your lane, but I think
it's especially important these days.

I think that's totally true.
And particularly, we canprobably drop on Reddit and have
people talking about things.
It's like you have no idea ifthose are even real people.
Maybe there's good advicethere, maybe there's good
information, maybe there's not.
But yeah, the more you can just focuson your thing and okay, it's out
in the world and whatever happensto it, that's all you can do.

Exactly.

Alright, Sadie.
Well, thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks for having me back.

My pleasure.
With that, we are out of time.
For more career help and theopportunity to work one-on-one with
us, you can check out CareerDicta.com.
If you enjoyed this episode of theLaw School Toolbox podcast, please
take a second to leave a review andrating on your favorite listening app.
We'd really appreciate it.
And be sure to subscribeso you don't miss anything.

(26:07):
If you have any questions or comments,please don't hesitate to reach out to
Lee or Alison at lee@lawschooltoolbox.comor alison@lawschooltoolbox.com.
Or you can always contactus via our website contact
form at LawSchoolToolbox.com.
Thanks for listening, and we'll talk soon!

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On Purpose with Jay Shetty

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496: The Early BigLaw Recruiting Timeline (w/Sadie Jones)

Stuff You Should Know