April 7, 2025 • 32 mins
Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast! Today, we're excited to talk to sleep and productivity expert Lindsay Scola. In this first part of a two-part conversation, we discuss why sleep is important and what can mess it up, and next week we'll look at some common (and less common) sleep disorders. If you're struggling to get the sleep you need to perform at your best, don't miss these episodes!
In this episode we discuss:
- Lindsay's personal journey and what got her interested in sleep science
- Why is sleep so important?
- Consequences of not getting enough sleep
- Practical tips for better sleep
- Figuring out your sleep chronotype
- Finding a good work/life balance
Resources
- LindsayScola.com (https://www.lindsayscola.com/)
- LinkedIn: Lindsay Scola (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsay-scola/)
- Instagram: Lindsay Scola (https://www.instagram.com/lindsay.scola/)
- Let's Talk About Sleep (https://lawschooltoolbox.com/lets-talk-about-sleep/)
- The Importance of Sleep in Law School (https://lawschooltoolbox.com/the-importance-of-sleep-in-law-school/)
- How to Maximize Your Sleep (https://lawschooltoolbox.com/how-to-maximize-your-sleep/)
Download the Transcript
(https://lawschooltoolbox.com/episode-498-tips-for-better-rest-with-sleep-expert-lindsay-scola-part-1/)
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Thanks for listening!
Alison & Lee
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lee Burgess (00:01):
Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast.
Today we are welcoming Lindsay Scola totalk about sleep and why it is important.
This is Part 1 of a two-partinterview with Lindsay, so please
check back next time for more.
Your Law School Toolbox hosts are AlisonMonahan and Lee Burgess, that's me.
We're here to demystify the law school andearly career experience, so you'll be the
best law student and lawyer you can be.
(00:24):
We're the co-creators of the Law SchoolToolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and the
career-related website CareerDicta.
Alison also runs TheGirl's Guide to Law School.
If you enjoy the show, pleaseleave a review or rating on
your favorite listening app.
And if you have any questions,don't hesitate to reach out to us.
You can reach us via the contactform on LawSchoolToolbox.com,
and we'd love to hear from you.
And with that, let's get started.
(00:53):
Today we're very excited to haveLindsay Scola here to talk about
something we all do, which is sleep.
And not only do we all do it, itturns out it's super important, even
though most of us don't do it enough.
So Lindsay, I'm so excited to talk aboutsleep - something I've spent a lot of
time thinking about not getting enough of.
Lindsay Scola (01:14):
I am super excited to be here and talk about sleep - this
thing that all of us spend a third ofour life doing and most of us never
thought anything about it, otherthan this time that we spend in bed.
So, very
Lee Burgess (01:26):
excited.
Yay.
Okay, well, to start off, whatgot you interested in sleep?
Lindsay Scola (01:31):
I was somebody who thought that I would sleep when I was dead.
I thought that sleep was theantithesis to my productivity.
It was this thing that got inthe way of me being productive.
I've always struggled with being sleepy.
The first time I talked to mydoctor about this, I was 16.
I was having these episodes where I wasin class and felt otherwise engaged and
then all of a sudden, out of nowhere,sleep would just hit me like a hammer,
(01:56):
and I would feel like if I didn't goto sleep right now, I was going to die.
And I would sneak into the bathroom andI would take a 15-minute nap and I'd feel
better, but this kept happening to me.
And so, when I went to our familydoctor, she said, "You're busy
and busy people are tired." Andthis mantra just stuck with me.
And I was busy, I wantedto do all the things.
And I went to collegeand I did all the things.
(02:16):
And then I started working on Capitol Hillfor a congressman with a bunch of people
who were busy, I did all the things.
And I never saw them sneakinginto the bathroom for naps.
And this sort of continued onfor me for a lot of my career.
And then when I was 35, I hit abrick wall and I just basically
became a lunatic zombie.
(02:36):
And if I didn't have toget out of bed, I wouldn't.
I was having these moments whereI'd be driving down the freeway,
and all of a sudden, I would realizethat I hadn't noticed anything that
happened in the last 10 minutes.
I was long past the exit thatI was supposed to get off of.
When I was doing somethinglike washing dishes, I felt
like I was taking micro-naps.
(02:56):
And when I was doing work that wasnot super engaging to my brain, it was
like I would sleep in between things.
So I would have these memos thatwere like perfectly constructed
sentences with gibberish in
Lee Burgess (03:08):
between.
Lindsay Scola (03:10):
And I went to my doctor and I was like, "Something is seriously
wrong." And she gave me a home sleep test,which came back negative, for sleep apnea.
And when I got these results, it said,"Think more about your sleep hygiene."
I was like, "That's great, but badsleep hygiene shouldn't make a human
this tired." And I was apoplectic.
(03:31):
I went home and I drank an entire bottleof red wine and an entire container
of Ben & Jerry's Cherry Garcia, andI found the end of the Internet.
And so, I go back to my doctorwith armloads of evidence that I
still have sleep apnea, the onlysleep disorder I'd ever heard of.
And I was like Annalise Keating,ready to make my defense.
(03:51):
And she stopped me and said, "We are nowbeyond both of our education on sleep."
And it took a literal temper tantrum onthe floor of my doctor's office to find
out that sleep specialists were a thing.
So, at 35, after experiencing symptomsfor 19 years, I went to see a sleep
specialist and found out I had narcolepsy.
Now, the only thing I had ever seenabout narcolepsy was the clip from Deuce
Bigalow (04:14):
Male Gigolo, which came out in 1999, so I'm guessing most people
listening to this were not even born yet.
However, a woman fallsasleep into her soup.
And I had never done that.
So, I sort of tilt my head to theside and I look at my doctor and I
was like, "I'm sorry, I don't thinkyou're right. I've never fallen asleep
into a bowl of soup." And found outthat that's not what narcolepsy is.
(04:36):
Narcolepsy actuallylooked a lot more like me.
But on that day, I didn't justlearn about narcolepsy, I learned
that I had no idea what sleep was.
And the more I dug in on this, Ifound out that most of us don't know
what sleep was, including most of ourgeneral practitioners as well, who have
under two hours of sleep education.
Lee Burgess (04:52):
When it's now being discussed as one of the most
important things to long-term health.
Lindsay Scola (04:57):
Absolutely.
And that still is the case though.
So yes, know it's important.
We
Lee Burgess (05:01):
know it's important, we just still don't talk about it.
Lindsay Scola (05:04):
We don't talk about it.
Or the information that weget about it is not helpful.
We get told to sleep eight hours,we get told to sleep in a dark
room, and not to use blue light.
There's some truth in some of that, butit doesn't actually teach us how to sleep.
At least when we were in elementaryschool, we got the food pyramid.
And some of the nutrition informationon there might be outdated; however,
(05:24):
somebody taught us to think about food.
We have an idea about the foodthat we put in our body, how that
relates to our overall health.
If I eat cheeseburgers three meals aday, every day for the rest of my life,
I'm going to have an issue with this.
As a regular person walking down thestreet, I don't know how the sleep
that I do or do not get affects mephysically, emotionally, or otherwise.
Lee Burgess (05:46):
Yeah.
I was never a great sleeper.
I had a roommate after college who was onthe crew team - he was a competitive rower
- and he could sleep anywhere at any time,because he would train himself basically,
because they would practice at 5:00 inthe morning or something in college.
He was one of those people who wouldbe like, "Oh, time to go to bed",
and I was like, "That is not how Iroll." But I said, "Oh, it's fine.
I'm just someone who doesn't sleep verymuch." And then I had small children.
(06:11):
I'm about 10 years into my smallchildren decade of my life.
And I didn't really appreciatesleep deprivation until my children
stopped me from sleeping, and thenyou start to see kind of long-term
consequences of cognitive retention,the ability to move through life.
And that was around the time thatI feel like a lot of people in the
(06:33):
media and in books were starting totalk about sleep, and I get super
aggressive and angry about it.
I'm like, "Don't talk to me about how muchI'm supposed to be sleeping. What am I
supposed to do? This is the chapter of mylife where I don't sleep." But now that
I'm on the other side of a lot of that,I am much more protective of my sleep.
I think it is so critical.
It has a huge influence onhow I function as a human.
(06:54):
And I wear an aura ringto track how I'm sleeping.
It's something I'm much moreaware of, along with, did I get
my steps in, or did I exercise?
It's just starting to becomepart of something I talk about.
But I think we often wait untilwe're closer to middle age, maybe,
to really focus on talking aboutit, because in school, not being
(07:14):
exhausted and burning the candle atboth ends is still championed, I think.
Lindsay Scola (07:19):
Yeah, and especially when we grew up.
Everybody who was highly successfulin the '90s slept four hours a night,
and that's what you aspired to.
We've hit a flip side of this, whereeverybody tells us to sleep eight hours.
And eight hours is onlythe top of a bell curve.
So, for most adults, you need tosleep between seven and nine hours.
But how much you sleep is actuallywhat feels good for your body.
(07:42):
And so, because of the bell curve, thereare people who need six hours or under,
which is a very, very, very, very,very small fraction of the population.
And then there are people who need10 hours or more, which is also a
small fraction of the population.
It's not about the amount of sleepthat you're getting; it's about the
quality of sleep that you're gettingand how you feel during the day.
Our measure of good sleep actuallyhas nothing to do with what's
(08:04):
happening between the time weclose our eyes and open them.
Actually the measure is howwe feel once we're awake and
functioning during the day.
And so, when we start to actually look atwhat sleep is and how we can practically
apply it to our own bodies, we actuallyhave a much better chance of feeling
better during the day than if it becomesthis mythical thing that you have to
(08:25):
get eight hours, because all it's doneis move this mark for us for failure.
I needed more than fourhours to be successful.
I can't get eight hours becauseof what's going on in my life, so
therefore, I'm just destined to be as*itty sleeper for the rest of my life.
Fortunately, once we start to dig inabout what feels good in our lives,
we can find a place for ourselveswhere we're making decisions about how
we sleep and when we sleep and whatwe're doing to get good sleep that
(08:47):
anybody can be successful at sleeping.
And the thing is that if you are doingthese things and you're prioritizing your
sleep and you don't feel good, one in fiveof us has a sleep disorder, and there's
something we can do about that too.
Lee Burgess (08:58):
Yeah.
Okay, so for everyone listening to thisthat's saying, "No, I'm good. I get four
to five hours of sleep. I am the tinybit on the bottom of the bell curve"
what really happens when we don't sleep?
Why is this so important?
When we are moving around the worldexhausted, what happens to us?
Why is it something that weshould all be looking at?
Lindsay Scola (09:18):
So, for starters, sleep is where our memory retention happens.
It's where short-term memorybecomes long-term memory.
So if you're not getting enough fullcycles of sleep, especially REM sleep,
your memory is going to struggle.
This is really important if you'resomebody who is listening to this,
who's taking exams in law schoolor getting ready for the bar exam.
If you want to retain information, youare much more successful if you sleep on
(09:42):
something new that you learned than tryingto cram it and force memorization of it.
It's where our bodyheals and repairs itself.
So, your immune system does better,your long-term health does better.
Lack of sleep has an increased risk ofcardiovascular issues, whether that's high
blood pressure or stroke or heart attack.
(10:03):
It's also where our braintakes out the trash.
You get chemicals that build up inyour brain throughout the day, and your
brain needs to cycle through those.
Without enough deep sleep, you're actuallymissing that opportunity to do that, and
those continue to build up, and that'swhere we see things like Alzheimer's.
You might feel okay for a certainperiod of time, not getting enough
(10:24):
sleep, and some people will tell youthat they've learned to live on it.
They've just learned toadapt to not enough sleep.
They've not learned to be a moreefficient sleeper, because after two
weeks we see that you don't get better.
You actually start compounding theproblem of not getting enough sleep.
So, by thinking that you have to bein this category of being able to
(10:47):
function on little to no sleep, you'reactually depriving yourself of all
of these good things that sleep does.
And you might actually find that youare smarter, more able, more capable,
especially on the memory side, if you'regiving yourself the amount of sleep that
your body really needs to thrive on.
Lee Burgess (11:04):
Yeah.
I've also read and personallyexperienced, I think, any issues with
anxiety or all of these other mentalhealth things that we talk about.
All of that is harderwhen you're exhausted.
It is just harder to have your rationalmind own everything when you're exhausted.
Lindsay Scola (11:23):
Absolutely.
There is definitely a strong mentalhealth connection between lack of
sleep and anxiety and depression.
And it's sort of achicken and the egg thing.
The anxiety and depression can causelack of sleep, but we have to focus
on getting enough quality good sleepto support your mental health as well.
So, if you're not somebody who's naturallyprone to anxiety but you're finding
that you're getting a lot of it, sleepcould be a first place to check in.
Lee Burgess (11:46):
Yeah.
I also think that I've had other studentsespecially report to me who have ADHD,
any kind of attention deficit issue,that exhaustion makes all of that worse.
It is just harder to manage whenyou're completely exhausted.
Absolutely.
Lindsay Scola (12:03):
And as somebody with ADHD, we start seeing this narrative,
that people with ADHD are bad sleepers.
And we would never tellsomebody with asthma it's okay
to just be a bad breather.
We would never tell someonewith a heart condition it's
okay to have a bad heartbeat.
But with ADHD specifically, we've justcreated this narrative that it's okay to
not get good sleep, and this is somethingthat just comes with the condition.
(12:25):
When in truth, we see that as many asprobably 80% of people with ADHD have some
other sleep condition, a sleep disorderwhich actually needs medical attention.
And so this could be chronic insomnia,this could be sleep apnea, this
could be restless leg syndrome,or something like narcolepsy.
And so it's really important, especiallyif you have ADHD, that you're tapping
into seeing if prioritizing yoursleep isn't working, that sleep
(12:49):
specialists are a thing and that wecan get you medical help and you will
live a much happier, healthier life.
Lee Burgess (12:53):
Yeah.
Okay, so hopefully everyone's boughtin that this is super important,
and basically all of us havesomething in our lives that will
be better if we get some rest.
So, how do we get better rest?
What do we do?
What do we do?
We're busy people.
What do we do?
Lindsay Scola (13:10):
So, first it's going to be tuning into your own wake cycle.
So, if you are a morning person,that's going to be the best time
for you to do really criticalthinking and organizing things.
If you're somebody who needs to sleepa little bit more in the morning,
you might find your productivitypush is more important at the end
of the day or even the evening.
(13:31):
And so, when we start tapping into whenwe feel our best, we actually can find
these places where we can get the mostout of our day, which gives us enough
time to make sure that we're sleeping.
And so, trying to be productiveevery second of every day is going
to make your productivity worse,it's going to make your sleep worse.
So, first tapping into your ownrhythm, figuring out what your
(13:54):
good amount of sleep is for you.
And so, pick a time to wake upevery day and stick with it.
And start seeing how you feel duringthe day, giving yourself enough sleep.
So, sleep happens in cycles of 90 minutes.
That gives you enough lightsleep, deep sleep, and REM sleep.
And you do this about five orsix times during the night.
(14:14):
And so, if you're waking up at 7:00AM and you want to figure out playing
with how much sleep to get, you goback in 90-minute cycles back from
there to figure out where you want tostart getting those five or six cycles,
and see how you feel during the day.
Do you feel well restedthroughout the day?
Do you feel like your energy is really lowfrom the time you wake up, or that you're
hitting big blocks throughout the day?
(14:36):
A lot of people play with napping.
I like to think of naps as sleep snacks.
So, if we live on this sort of 24-hourcircadian rhythm cycle and we have
this thing called "sleep pressure"that builds up throughout the day,
and the longer we have it the moretired we get, it's like hunger, right?
The longer we go withoutfood, the more hungry we are.
(14:56):
Some people absolutely have tohave a snack, or they're never
going to make it to dinner.
Other people, they have a snackand they're not hungry for dinner.
So, if you think that dinner isthe goal with sleep, what are you
doing for yourself to get there?
I'm somebody who definitely needsmy 15, 20-minute nap sometime
around 1:00 o'clock every day.
So, I don't schedule important meetingsat that time, so that I know that
(15:16):
I have that time and that's goingto get me through the rest of my
day to have a productive afternoon.
And you don't have to have asleep disorder to appreciate
napping as part of your day.
That can work for anybody.
Now, if naps are feeling uncontrollable,we're sitting and we're having
this conversation or otherwiseour brains are stimulated by it.
If you feel like all of a sudden,"I have to go to sleep or I'm going
(15:38):
to die, and I absolutely can't keepmy eyes open" - that's a sign that
something else might be at play.
That's something calledexcessive daytime sleepiness.
Lee Burgess (15:44):
Yeah, I'm not a napper.
I always wish I had been a napper,but I'm really not a napper, and I'm
so jealous of people who can nap.
I'm just not a very good napper.
Lindsay Scola (15:55):
Well, if it's not something that you need...
Lee Burgess (15:57):
I don't know.
Lindsay Scola (15:59):
We all have our different
Lee Burgess (15:59):
things.
I know.
Maybe in my ideal being, Ineed it, but I don't know.
I'm always like, "Wouldn't that be nice?"And then I've never been good at it.
So, I just give that one up.
I'm
Lindsay Scola (16:10):
just going to own that.
I wear a necklace thatsays "Good at naps".
Lee Burgess (16:12):
Oh my gosh, I love that.
But I definitely have a rhythm.
And if I don't go to bed in myusual pocket of time, I get another
wind, I have trouble falling asleep.
My body wants to wake uparound the same time every day.
And I think this idea of your day havingthese pockets of productivity and these
(16:32):
pockets where you're more refreshedis really important to think about.
I was listening to a Huberman Labepisode, which I don't even listen to
very many of them, but he was talkingabout his daily rhythm, which I found
very interesting, and that he reallybreaks it down to like, "These are the
90 minutes I do creative tasks. This isthe hour that I do administrative tasks."
And he was being very honest about howcognitively he can think about what he's
(16:56):
best at, based on the rhythm of the day.
And I think that your idea oflooking at your day as this
24-hour window is very different.
You're like, "When am I going to beproductive? When am I resting? And
how does all of that come together?"
Lindsay Scola (17:09):
Yeah.
If you look at sleep chronotypes,there're four sleep chronotypes, where
we have this sort of genetic rhythm.
And this is not an exact scienceat all, but it gets us to sort of
tap into what feels good for us.
So we have lions, who wake up before thesun, feel their most productive first
time in the day, definitely have anenergy slump earlier in the afternoon.
We have bears, who are the people that the"nine to five" system was built for - you
(17:31):
sort of wake up with the sun, set withthe sun, and you feel most productive
during the main hours of the day.
We have our wolves, who are latenight folks who feel super creative
as the night goes on, tend to want tofall asleep after midnight, 8:00 AM
meetings can feel excruciating for them.
And then we have dolphins, who aresort of unpredictable in their sleep.
These are sort of our light sleepers,or have inconsistent sleep rhythms.
(17:54):
I'm one of these folks, so Idon't know when my creative
moments are going to hit for me.
So, it's uber important for me thatI keep as much flexibility in my
schedule as possible and really trynot to overload myself in the afternoon
and evening, because this is usuallywhen I'm going to hit an energy slump.
And so, once you start thinkingthrough that, you give yourself a
lot more permission to work withwhat feels good for yourself.
(18:16):
And you also realize that noneof us are going to be a machine.
Nobody is going to
Lee Burgess (18:22):
wake up...
Oh wait, I'm not a machine?
Wait, what?
Lindsay Scola (18:26):
And sometimes it takes into our forties to figure this out.
Lee Burgess (18:29):
It's
Lindsay Scola (18:30):
true.
Lee Burgess (18:31):
But
Lindsay Scola (18:32):
if you are not somebody who naturally wants to wake up at
5:00 AM and go to the gym and feelyour best, you're never going to
force yourself to be that person.
And so, it's superimportant to tune into that.
And then, I think that as we're learningabout sleep and playing with sleep,
those of us that have been accustomedto this thing called "sleep hygiene" is
(18:52):
that it's a checklist, and if I don'tcheck off everything on it that I have
failed, I am now destined to be a badsleeper forever, and this is my fault.
And the thing is that it can be verysmall, manageable changes that help
us get the type of sleep that we need.
You might be more lightsensitive than you realize.
You might not have an issue fallingasleep because lights were on earlier,
but you might actually find thatlights in your room are actually waking
(19:14):
you up or making your sleep lighter.
In our room we have stickerson things that are indicator
lights that are keeping me awake.
The curtain behind me is a blackoutcurtain, so any light that's coming into
the room doesn't hit first thing in themorning, when my husband and I sleep a
little later than when the sun comes up.
And those micro-changes are really good.
As someone with ADHD, I have a constantnarrator running through my head.
(19:38):
And sometimes at night, the narratordoes not want to settle down, and the
narrator would like to go through aconversation I had in third grade,
and whether or not I said the rightthing in that moment, or if the teacher
who punished me for talking too muchin class that day was in the wrong.
And so, I have found that TVhelps quiet that narrator.
So for years I thought I needed tosleep with the TV on, and then the
(19:59):
light from the TV would wake me upand then I would be up in the night.
And so, it's just the dialogue from TV.
So now I sleep with a soundsleep mask that has a flat
panel so I can sleep on my side.
I set a 30-minute timer on myphone to turn off when it's done.
I put on a show I'm notemotionally invested in, so
it's something I've seen before.
Lighthearted comedies like Girls5evais one my jams to fall asleep to.
(20:21):
And then in 30 minutes it's off.
There's no light that's on.
And then the mask is a blackout mask, soany other light that's coming into the
room isn't keeping me up or waking me up.
And so, once you start thinkingabout, "Okay, what feels good for me?
Do I like sound when I go to sleep?
Do I want it to be pitchquiet when I go to sleep?
Does white noise help me fall asleep?"People play with different frequencies.
You've got white noise thatcan help you fall asleep when
(20:41):
there's other noise happening.
Pink noise, brown noise that cangive you different types of grounding
or different kinds of dreams.
Enjoy it and think of it as apuzzle that you're putting together.
I had a doctor who told me that Iwas going to feel really good on a
vegan diet that didn't have oil in it.
And when I started doing that,I was like, "Oh, the food tastes
amazing", but my body stopped moving.
(21:03):
Everything in my body just stoppedmoving and I was just a pile
of sludge, because it turns outthat was not a good diet for me.
And I do much better on aMediterranean diet with light
protein and olive oil in it.
And so, all of us are going todo different things at different
times and feel better doing it.
And that's okay.
Yeah,
Lee Burgess (21:20):
I think it's true.
We have to be on this journey tofigure things out for ourselves.
So, some of the kind of checklist ofthings that you have mentioned is that
if you're not sleeping enough or you'refeeling very tired, you want to start
looking at this traditional sleep hygienethat we've all read blog posts about.
It's like what's happeninginside your room.
And then you want to playwith it and experiment.
(21:42):
Have you ever worn a mask at night?
Have you ever had whitenoise or different noise?
When we travel with my kids, I have anapp that runs off of their iPads that
has all these different noises on it.
I mean, it's like the airplane, thefan, and they like airplane plus fan.
You can get really creative, but I thinkthere are so many options that didn't used
to be out there, that can help you feelmore at home, and also can help you sleep
(22:07):
when you travel, which is another issue.
But what are some of the other thingsyou think, other than sound and
darkness, that folks should play about?
I mean, you mentioned diet.
I think that's another thingthat can have an influence.
Eating too late.
I know for me personally, if I eattoo late at night, I don't sleep
particularly well, and that's becauseI'm now compulsive and do all this
data tracking on myself, which is itsown Type A personality thing to do.
Lindsay Scola (22:31):
If you're struggling with sleep, please be
careful about the data tracking.
Lee Burgess (22:34):
Yes.
Okay, tell me about
Lindsay Scola (22:35):
it.
So something's going to happen for us,especially when we're struggling with
sleep, that we try really hard to sleep.
Especially if you're a Type A personwho has thought that, "I have muscled
through everything else in my life, I'mnow going to muscle through sleep." And
effort is actually the opposite of sleep.
The more we try to say "I need tosleep, I need to sleep now", the more
our body is going to resist this,because we're turning our brain on.
(22:57):
We're actually using our brainfor something and doing the
opposite of what it needs to do.
So, if you're someone who sleepswell and having this data is
helpful and fun for you - great.
If you're someone who's strugglingwith your sleep, it can actually
have the opposite effect.
And so, first try to take as muchpressure off yourself as possible
for when you're struggling to sleep.
You might not be at a timewhere your brain wants to go
(23:19):
to sleep, so get out of bed.
If you've been in bed and wantingto fall asleep and it's been more
than 20 minutes and you're notasleep, get up and do something else.
That can be doing somethingrelaxing, going and reading a book
under some low light, listeningto some music outside of bed.
You feel sleepy, you come back.
Some people get up and do some more work.
You're using your brain forwhat it wants to be doing.
(23:40):
I just heard a great analogy, thatour brains are like a snow globe.
And so, sometimes when we want tobe falling asleep and our brain has
all of this going on, allow yourbrain to do what it needs to do,
and then come back and try again.
One night of low sleep is notgoing to be the end of you.
So we want to retrain our brains fromthinking, "Oh my God, tomorrow is wrecked.
I didn't get enough sleep, I'm goingto fail at everything I do tomorrow,
(24:03):
and then I'm going to fail every nightbeyond that." And more, it's like, "I've
had rough nights before and I've beenokay." And that's going to help you sort
of reframe everything that's going on.
And giving yourself grace willactually help you sleep a lot better.
If you are someone who struggleswith more negative thoughts at
night, try gratitude journaling.
I thought it was like the corniestthing ever when I first read about it.
(24:24):
And there's something about getting yourbrain into a more positive place before
you're trying to go to bed that's goingto help those racing thoughts die down
and get ready for a softer, calmer place.
And that doesn't have to be, "Iam so grateful for this major,
massive achievement." "I'mgrateful for having a warm bed.
I'm grateful for a goodconversation that I had today.
I'm grateful for the really extraordinarydinner that I had tonight." And so,
(24:47):
that just helps us reframe thingsto be in a softer, calmer place.
If you are someone that really enjoysbeing on your phone before you go
to bed, and you're having a hardtime falling asleep, it could be
the content that you're consuming.
So if you're watching a really dramaticTV show that's asking your brain to do a
lot of work, that might not be the thing.
I do like being on myphone before I go to bed.
(25:07):
I can't watch political contentright now, because it fires
up every nerve in my body.
So, I love watching people cleaningcast iron skillets on Instagram.
I'm never going to restorecast iron skillets.
I don't have a desire to do thisat all, but there's something so
extraordinarily calming for meabout watching other people do it.
And that sets me off to dreamland.
(25:28):
And I love doing it at nightand it makes me super happy.
So, whatever your jam is, trainyour algorithm, this is the
content that you want to see.
And figure out what you'retelling your brain is nighttime.
I'm really sensitive tosmell, in a good way.
Certain smells will remind me of things,certain smells will calm me down.
So, I found that I really like that.
L.A. has been so extraordinarily drythis winter, so I have a humidifier on
(25:52):
my nightstand now, and I put a littleessential oil in there of a smell that
calms me down, and it tells my body like,"Okay, it's time to calm down. It's time
to get ready for bed." So, there's a wholelong list of things we can play with.
Lee Burgess (26:02):
Yeah.
So, let's say that youare joining the workforce.
Maybe you are a young lawyer,you're joining a big firm or a
high stress job, and the narrativeis, everybody's exhausted because
everyone's working all the time.
So, how do you hold that narrative,and also the fact that you want
(26:25):
to work a productive amount oftime and still find that balance?
Lindsay Scola (26:31):
We are never going to all be in control of our schedules
100% of the time, every day.
And sometimes you are going to gothrough a period where you're going
to need to potentially do more workthan your brain is wired to do to
have the most restful time, protectas much piece of your day as you can.
If you're staying up later forwork, maybe you're pushing some
personal stuff to a later time.
(26:53):
I know that when I was working onCapitol Hill, when I was right out of
school, and we had things that weregoing late into the night, I still felt
like I had to meet all of these otherthings in my life, and so I was adding
a social life on top of that, and thengoing out later than that, and then you
still have to be at work the next day.
And I am not naturally a morning person.
So, I was pushing my body to dothings that it didn't want to do.
(27:13):
I think wake up as consistently at thesame time as you can every day, so that
when you get past that crazy time thatyou've been in, your body naturally
wants to go to sleep at this time becauseyou've sort of trained it for a cycle.
And again, lean into yourproductivity moments.
And this can be as simple as knowing thatevery day at 2:00 o'clock I have a slump.
(27:34):
And it's not necessarily thatyou need to take a nap at that
time, but maybe you go for a walk.
Maybe that's a time that you turn off allyour devices for 15 minutes and you listen
to something that is calming or funny, orjust stops your brain from working for a
moment, because that way you're actuallygoing to get your brain to pump back in.
And by giving yourself that 15 minutesof downtime, you've actually probably
(27:55):
given yourself three or four morehours of productivity after that.
And we can have diminishing returnsif we try to push, push, push,
because we think that we're in thisculture that everybody's working
at every moment of every day.
And you might actually find thatyou can get more work done if you're
giving yourself time to refresh.
Take these lessons in now, becauseyou're going to be the one that's
(28:16):
setting the tone 10, 15, 20 yearsfrom now, to make sure that we've got
happier, healthier workplaces where wecan probably get just as much done, but
we're getting it done in a way that'smuch healthier for us in the long term.
Lee Burgess (28:28):
Yeah.
I really like this idea of givingyourself those resets throughout the day.
We talk about that even for the bar exam,which is an all-day test, a multi-day test
that said that if you're losing focus,if you are crashing, you've got to just
close your eyes and take deep breaths.
Because I think we often forget thatif we just flood our body with oxygen,
(28:49):
it also helps kind of reset ourselves.
And so, I think so often we feel thatwe have to meet these lofty goals
to be these high-functioning people.
Before my third year of law school,I was working at a law firm, I had
just met my now husband, and so Iwas doing social things with him.
I had a summer associate job, so Iwas doing social things with the firm.
(29:09):
And it was very important to me thatI also try to work out before work.
One day, I was so tired and burnt outthat I ended up sleeping in my car in
the parking lot of the gym, becauseI was so tired that I could not make
myself go inside to go to the gym.
And it was just one of those momentswhere I'm like, "What am I doing?
(29:31):
This is just not normal or good foranyone." What does it mean when I have
gotten myself to the gym and it waslike 6:00 AM by the time I pulled in and
then my body was just like, "You mustgo back to sleep until 7:00 o'clock.
That is what we need more thananything else." And it was
really just an "aha" moment.
There are consequences topushing yourself too hard.
(29:53):
It will catch up with you.
You may not know when it's goingto catch up with you, but it will.
Lindsay Scola (29:58):
Absolutely.
And sleep is up there with breathingand eating and drinking water.
If you hold your breath for a certainperiod of time, you will pass out
and start breathing again, becauseyour brain is going to do what it
needs to do to take care of itself.
And so, if you are willinglydepriving yourself of this thing
that your body needs to function,it's going to find a way to happen
whether you want it to or not.
(30:19):
And you don't want that to be behindthe wheel of a car, which our focus and
our reaction time are a direct resultof getting good, functioning sleep.
If you're not sleeping, yourreaction time is dropping way down.
And sleep deprived driving is justas dangerous as drunk driving.
Lee Burgess (30:34):
Yeah.
Yeah, okay, so we've given a lot ofsuggestions, but if you had to kind of
bundle them all together and give the topthings you want folks to think about when
they talk about bettering their sleep,what would be your top handful of things?
Lindsay Scola (30:49):
Think about how much sleep you feel good at, and
get to a place where you knowaround what number you want to hit.
Lean into your natural rhythms duringthe day and give yourself grace to try
new things when things are failing.
And I'm going to give four.
If you are trying all these things andit's not working and you're still not
(31:10):
feeling good, know that sleep disordersare real, they affect a lot of people,
and that there is actual medical helpthat will help you live a much happier,
more productive, healthier life.
I am a testament to that.
Lee Burgess (31:21):
Amazing.
And that is great because we are outof time for today, but we're going
to come back with another episode onsleep where we're going to talk more
about sleep disorders and also howto advocate for yourself, so once
you know that you're struggling,you can get the help that you need.
So, thank you so much for your time today.
If folks want to learn more about yoursleep research and what you're talking
about with sleep, how can they do that?
Lindsay Scola (31:42):
LindsayScola.com.
I've got everything you need there.
Follow me on Instagram and LinkedIn,and can't wait to talk to you more.
Lee Burgess (31:48):
Do you post the cleaning of the cast iron skillets on your Instagram?
Do you
Lindsay Scola (31:53):
link to that?
because I'm not cleaning cast iron
Lee Burgess (31:54):
skillets.
Well, I didn't know if youjust share the content.
You're like, "Everyoneshould be watching this."
Lindsay Scola (31:59):
Maybe I need to put a reel together of this.
I need a reel of the cast ironskillets restorers that I watch,
because I am not restoring cast
Lee Burgess (32:06):
iron skillets.
Okay, I love it.
So, sleepy time.
It should be like a sleepytime cast iron skillet reel.
I'm going to look forit on your Instagram.
Lindsay Scola (32:14):
Coming to Spotify
Lee Burgess (32:15):
soon.
Okay.
Alright.
Alright, thanks so much foryour time today, Lindsay.
Thank you.
If you enjoyed this episode of theLaw School Toolbox podcast, please
take a second to leave a review andrating on your favorite listening app.
We'd really appreciate it.
And be sure to subscribeso you don't miss anything.
If you have any questions orcomments, please don't hesitate
to reach out to myself or Alisonat lee@lawschooltoolbox.com or
(32:38):
alison@lawschooltoolbox.com.
Or you can always contactus via our website contact
form at LawSchoolToolbox.com.
Thanks for listening, and we'll talk soon!
Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast.
Today we are welcoming Lindsay Scola totalk about sleep and why it is important.
This is Part 1 of a two-partinterview with Lindsay, so please
check back next time for more.
Your Law School Toolbox hosts are AlisonMonahan and Lee Burgess, that's me.
We're here to demystify the law school andearly career experience, so you'll be the
best law student and lawyer you can be.
(00:24):
We're the co-creators of the Law SchoolToolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and the
career-related website CareerDicta.
Alison also runs TheGirl's Guide to Law School.
If you enjoy the show, pleaseleave a review or rating on
your favorite listening app.
And if you have any questions,don't hesitate to reach out to us.
You can reach us via the contactform on LawSchoolToolbox.com,
and we'd love to hear from you.
And with that, let's get started.
(00:53):
Today we're very excited to haveLindsay Scola here to talk about
something we all do, which is sleep.
And not only do we all do it, itturns out it's super important, even
though most of us don't do it enough.
So Lindsay, I'm so excited to talk aboutsleep - something I've spent a lot of
time thinking about not getting enough of.
Lindsay Scola (01:14):
I am super excited to be here and talk about sleep - this
thing that all of us spend a third ofour life doing and most of us never
thought anything about it, otherthan this time that we spend in bed.
So, very
Lee Burgess (01:26):
excited.
Yay.
Okay, well, to start off, whatgot you interested in sleep?
Lindsay Scola (01:31):
I was somebody who thought that I would sleep when I was dead.
I thought that sleep was theantithesis to my productivity.
It was this thing that got inthe way of me being productive.
I've always struggled with being sleepy.
The first time I talked to mydoctor about this, I was 16.
I was having these episodes where I wasin class and felt otherwise engaged and
then all of a sudden, out of nowhere,sleep would just hit me like a hammer,
(01:56):
and I would feel like if I didn't goto sleep right now, I was going to die.
And I would sneak into the bathroom andI would take a 15-minute nap and I'd feel
better, but this kept happening to me.
And so, when I went to our familydoctor, she said, "You're busy
and busy people are tired." Andthis mantra just stuck with me.
And I was busy, I wantedto do all the things.
And I went to collegeand I did all the things.
(02:16):
And then I started working on Capitol Hillfor a congressman with a bunch of people
who were busy, I did all the things.
And I never saw them sneakinginto the bathroom for naps.
And this sort of continued onfor me for a lot of my career.
And then when I was 35, I hit abrick wall and I just basically
became a lunatic zombie.
(02:36):
And if I didn't have toget out of bed, I wouldn't.
I was having these moments whereI'd be driving down the freeway,
and all of a sudden, I would realizethat I hadn't noticed anything that
happened in the last 10 minutes.
I was long past the exit thatI was supposed to get off of.
When I was doing somethinglike washing dishes, I felt
like I was taking micro-naps.
(02:56):
And when I was doing work that wasnot super engaging to my brain, it was
like I would sleep in between things.
So I would have these memos thatwere like perfectly constructed
sentences with gibberish in
Lee Burgess (03:08):
between.
Lindsay Scola (03:10):
And I went to my doctor and I was like, "Something is seriously
wrong." And she gave me a home sleep test,which came back negative, for sleep apnea.
And when I got these results, it said,"Think more about your sleep hygiene."
I was like, "That's great, but badsleep hygiene shouldn't make a human
this tired." And I was apoplectic.
(03:31):
I went home and I drank an entire bottleof red wine and an entire container
of Ben & Jerry's Cherry Garcia, andI found the end of the Internet.
And so, I go back to my doctorwith armloads of evidence that I
still have sleep apnea, the onlysleep disorder I'd ever heard of.
And I was like Annalise Keating,ready to make my defense.
(03:51):
And she stopped me and said, "We are nowbeyond both of our education on sleep."
And it took a literal temper tantrum onthe floor of my doctor's office to find
out that sleep specialists were a thing.
So, at 35, after experiencing symptomsfor 19 years, I went to see a sleep
specialist and found out I had narcolepsy.
Now, the only thing I had ever seenabout narcolepsy was the clip from Deuce
Bigalow (04:14):
Male Gigolo, which came out in 1999, so I'm guessing most people
listening to this were not even born yet.
However, a woman fallsasleep into her soup.
And I had never done that.
So, I sort of tilt my head to theside and I look at my doctor and I
was like, "I'm sorry, I don't thinkyou're right. I've never fallen asleep
into a bowl of soup." And found outthat that's not what narcolepsy is.
(04:36):
Narcolepsy actuallylooked a lot more like me.
But on that day, I didn't justlearn about narcolepsy, I learned
that I had no idea what sleep was.
And the more I dug in on this, Ifound out that most of us don't know
what sleep was, including most of ourgeneral practitioners as well, who have
under two hours of sleep education.
Lee Burgess (04:52):
When it's now being discussed as one of the most
important things to long-term health.
Lindsay Scola (04:57):
Absolutely.
And that still is the case though.
So yes, know it's important.
We
Lee Burgess (05:01):
know it's important, we just still don't talk about it.
Lindsay Scola (05:04):
We don't talk about it.
Or the information that weget about it is not helpful.
We get told to sleep eight hours,we get told to sleep in a dark
room, and not to use blue light.
There's some truth in some of that, butit doesn't actually teach us how to sleep.
At least when we were in elementaryschool, we got the food pyramid.
And some of the nutrition informationon there might be outdated; however,
(05:24):
somebody taught us to think about food.
We have an idea about the foodthat we put in our body, how that
relates to our overall health.
If I eat cheeseburgers three meals aday, every day for the rest of my life,
I'm going to have an issue with this.
As a regular person walking down thestreet, I don't know how the sleep
that I do or do not get affects mephysically, emotionally, or otherwise.
Lee Burgess (05:46):
Yeah.
I was never a great sleeper.
I had a roommate after college who was onthe crew team - he was a competitive rower
- and he could sleep anywhere at any time,because he would train himself basically,
because they would practice at 5:00 inthe morning or something in college.
He was one of those people who wouldbe like, "Oh, time to go to bed",
and I was like, "That is not how Iroll." But I said, "Oh, it's fine.
I'm just someone who doesn't sleep verymuch." And then I had small children.
(06:11):
I'm about 10 years into my smallchildren decade of my life.
And I didn't really appreciatesleep deprivation until my children
stopped me from sleeping, and thenyou start to see kind of long-term
consequences of cognitive retention,the ability to move through life.
And that was around the time thatI feel like a lot of people in the
(06:33):
media and in books were starting totalk about sleep, and I get super
aggressive and angry about it.
I'm like, "Don't talk to me about how muchI'm supposed to be sleeping. What am I
supposed to do? This is the chapter of mylife where I don't sleep." But now that
I'm on the other side of a lot of that,I am much more protective of my sleep.
I think it is so critical.
It has a huge influence onhow I function as a human.
(06:54):
And I wear an aura ringto track how I'm sleeping.
It's something I'm much moreaware of, along with, did I get
my steps in, or did I exercise?
It's just starting to becomepart of something I talk about.
But I think we often wait untilwe're closer to middle age, maybe,
to really focus on talking aboutit, because in school, not being
(07:14):
exhausted and burning the candle atboth ends is still championed, I think.
Lindsay Scola (07:19):
Yeah, and especially when we grew up.
Everybody who was highly successfulin the '90s slept four hours a night,
and that's what you aspired to.
We've hit a flip side of this, whereeverybody tells us to sleep eight hours.
And eight hours is onlythe top of a bell curve.
So, for most adults, you need tosleep between seven and nine hours.
But how much you sleep is actuallywhat feels good for your body.
(07:42):
And so, because of the bell curve, thereare people who need six hours or under,
which is a very, very, very, very,very small fraction of the population.
And then there are people who need10 hours or more, which is also a
small fraction of the population.
It's not about the amount of sleepthat you're getting; it's about the
quality of sleep that you're gettingand how you feel during the day.
Our measure of good sleep actuallyhas nothing to do with what's
(08:04):
happening between the time weclose our eyes and open them.
Actually the measure is howwe feel once we're awake and
functioning during the day.
And so, when we start to actually look atwhat sleep is and how we can practically
apply it to our own bodies, we actuallyhave a much better chance of feeling
better during the day than if it becomesthis mythical thing that you have to
(08:25):
get eight hours, because all it's doneis move this mark for us for failure.
I needed more than fourhours to be successful.
I can't get eight hours becauseof what's going on in my life, so
therefore, I'm just destined to be as*itty sleeper for the rest of my life.
Fortunately, once we start to dig inabout what feels good in our lives,
we can find a place for ourselveswhere we're making decisions about how
we sleep and when we sleep and whatwe're doing to get good sleep that
(08:47):
anybody can be successful at sleeping.
And the thing is that if you are doingthese things and you're prioritizing your
sleep and you don't feel good, one in fiveof us has a sleep disorder, and there's
something we can do about that too.
Lee Burgess (08:58):
Yeah.
Okay, so for everyone listening to thisthat's saying, "No, I'm good. I get four
to five hours of sleep. I am the tinybit on the bottom of the bell curve"
what really happens when we don't sleep?
Why is this so important?
When we are moving around the worldexhausted, what happens to us?
Why is it something that weshould all be looking at?
Lindsay Scola (09:18):
So, for starters, sleep is where our memory retention happens.
It's where short-term memorybecomes long-term memory.
So if you're not getting enough fullcycles of sleep, especially REM sleep,
your memory is going to struggle.
This is really important if you'resomebody who is listening to this,
who's taking exams in law schoolor getting ready for the bar exam.
If you want to retain information, youare much more successful if you sleep on
(09:42):
something new that you learned than tryingto cram it and force memorization of it.
It's where our bodyheals and repairs itself.
So, your immune system does better,your long-term health does better.
Lack of sleep has an increased risk ofcardiovascular issues, whether that's high
blood pressure or stroke or heart attack.
(10:03):
It's also where our braintakes out the trash.
You get chemicals that build up inyour brain throughout the day, and your
brain needs to cycle through those.
Without enough deep sleep, you're actuallymissing that opportunity to do that, and
those continue to build up, and that'swhere we see things like Alzheimer's.
You might feel okay for a certainperiod of time, not getting enough
(10:24):
sleep, and some people will tell youthat they've learned to live on it.
They've just learned toadapt to not enough sleep.
They've not learned to be a moreefficient sleeper, because after two
weeks we see that you don't get better.
You actually start compounding theproblem of not getting enough sleep.
So, by thinking that you have to bein this category of being able to
(10:47):
function on little to no sleep, you'reactually depriving yourself of all
of these good things that sleep does.
And you might actually find that youare smarter, more able, more capable,
especially on the memory side, if you'regiving yourself the amount of sleep that
your body really needs to thrive on.
Lee Burgess (11:04):
Yeah.
I've also read and personallyexperienced, I think, any issues with
anxiety or all of these other mentalhealth things that we talk about.
All of that is harderwhen you're exhausted.
It is just harder to have your rationalmind own everything when you're exhausted.
Lindsay Scola (11:23):
Absolutely.
There is definitely a strong mentalhealth connection between lack of
sleep and anxiety and depression.
And it's sort of achicken and the egg thing.
The anxiety and depression can causelack of sleep, but we have to focus
on getting enough quality good sleepto support your mental health as well.
So, if you're not somebody who's naturallyprone to anxiety but you're finding
that you're getting a lot of it, sleepcould be a first place to check in.
Lee Burgess (11:46):
Yeah.
I also think that I've had other studentsespecially report to me who have ADHD,
any kind of attention deficit issue,that exhaustion makes all of that worse.
It is just harder to manage whenyou're completely exhausted.
Absolutely.
Lindsay Scola (12:03):
And as somebody with ADHD, we start seeing this narrative,
that people with ADHD are bad sleepers.
And we would never tellsomebody with asthma it's okay
to just be a bad breather.
We would never tell someonewith a heart condition it's
okay to have a bad heartbeat.
But with ADHD specifically, we've justcreated this narrative that it's okay to
not get good sleep, and this is somethingthat just comes with the condition.
(12:25):
When in truth, we see that as many asprobably 80% of people with ADHD have some
other sleep condition, a sleep disorderwhich actually needs medical attention.
And so this could be chronic insomnia,this could be sleep apnea, this
could be restless leg syndrome,or something like narcolepsy.
And so it's really important, especiallyif you have ADHD, that you're tapping
into seeing if prioritizing yoursleep isn't working, that sleep
(12:49):
specialists are a thing and that wecan get you medical help and you will
live a much happier, healthier life.
Lee Burgess (12:53):
Yeah.
Okay, so hopefully everyone's boughtin that this is super important,
and basically all of us havesomething in our lives that will
be better if we get some rest.
So, how do we get better rest?
What do we do?
What do we do?
We're busy people.
What do we do?
Lindsay Scola (13:10):
So, first it's going to be tuning into your own wake cycle.
So, if you are a morning person,that's going to be the best time
for you to do really criticalthinking and organizing things.
If you're somebody who needs to sleepa little bit more in the morning,
you might find your productivitypush is more important at the end
of the day or even the evening.
(13:31):
And so, when we start tapping into whenwe feel our best, we actually can find
these places where we can get the mostout of our day, which gives us enough
time to make sure that we're sleeping.
And so, trying to be productiveevery second of every day is going
to make your productivity worse,it's going to make your sleep worse.
So, first tapping into your ownrhythm, figuring out what your
(13:54):
good amount of sleep is for you.
And so, pick a time to wake upevery day and stick with it.
And start seeing how you feel duringthe day, giving yourself enough sleep.
So, sleep happens in cycles of 90 minutes.
That gives you enough lightsleep, deep sleep, and REM sleep.
And you do this about five orsix times during the night.
(14:14):
And so, if you're waking up at 7:00AM and you want to figure out playing
with how much sleep to get, you goback in 90-minute cycles back from
there to figure out where you want tostart getting those five or six cycles,
and see how you feel during the day.
Do you feel well restedthroughout the day?
Do you feel like your energy is really lowfrom the time you wake up, or that you're
hitting big blocks throughout the day?
(14:36):
A lot of people play with napping.
I like to think of naps as sleep snacks.
So, if we live on this sort of 24-hourcircadian rhythm cycle and we have
this thing called "sleep pressure"that builds up throughout the day,
and the longer we have it the moretired we get, it's like hunger, right?
The longer we go withoutfood, the more hungry we are.
(14:56):
Some people absolutely have tohave a snack, or they're never
going to make it to dinner.
Other people, they have a snackand they're not hungry for dinner.
So, if you think that dinner isthe goal with sleep, what are you
doing for yourself to get there?
I'm somebody who definitely needsmy 15, 20-minute nap sometime
around 1:00 o'clock every day.
So, I don't schedule important meetingsat that time, so that I know that
(15:16):
I have that time and that's goingto get me through the rest of my
day to have a productive afternoon.
And you don't have to have asleep disorder to appreciate
napping as part of your day.
That can work for anybody.
Now, if naps are feeling uncontrollable,we're sitting and we're having
this conversation or otherwiseour brains are stimulated by it.
If you feel like all of a sudden,"I have to go to sleep or I'm going
(15:38):
to die, and I absolutely can't keepmy eyes open" - that's a sign that
something else might be at play.
That's something calledexcessive daytime sleepiness.
Lee Burgess (15:44):
Yeah, I'm not a napper.
I always wish I had been a napper,but I'm really not a napper, and I'm
so jealous of people who can nap.
I'm just not a very good napper.
Lindsay Scola (15:55):
Well, if it's not something that you need...
Lee Burgess (15:57):
I don't know.
Lindsay Scola (15:59):
We all have our different
Lee Burgess (15:59):
things.
I know.
Maybe in my ideal being, Ineed it, but I don't know.
I'm always like, "Wouldn't that be nice?"And then I've never been good at it.
So, I just give that one up.
I'm
Lindsay Scola (16:10):
just going to own that.
I wear a necklace thatsays "Good at naps".
Lee Burgess (16:12):
Oh my gosh, I love that.
But I definitely have a rhythm.
And if I don't go to bed in myusual pocket of time, I get another
wind, I have trouble falling asleep.
My body wants to wake uparound the same time every day.
And I think this idea of your day havingthese pockets of productivity and these
(16:32):
pockets where you're more refreshedis really important to think about.
I was listening to a Huberman Labepisode, which I don't even listen to
very many of them, but he was talkingabout his daily rhythm, which I found
very interesting, and that he reallybreaks it down to like, "These are the
90 minutes I do creative tasks. This isthe hour that I do administrative tasks."
And he was being very honest about howcognitively he can think about what he's
(16:56):
best at, based on the rhythm of the day.
And I think that your idea oflooking at your day as this
24-hour window is very different.
You're like, "When am I going to beproductive? When am I resting? And
how does all of that come together?"
Lindsay Scola (17:09):
Yeah.
If you look at sleep chronotypes,there're four sleep chronotypes, where
we have this sort of genetic rhythm.
And this is not an exact scienceat all, but it gets us to sort of
tap into what feels good for us.
So we have lions, who wake up before thesun, feel their most productive first
time in the day, definitely have anenergy slump earlier in the afternoon.
We have bears, who are the people that the"nine to five" system was built for - you
(17:31):
sort of wake up with the sun, set withthe sun, and you feel most productive
during the main hours of the day.
We have our wolves, who are latenight folks who feel super creative
as the night goes on, tend to want tofall asleep after midnight, 8:00 AM
meetings can feel excruciating for them.
And then we have dolphins, who aresort of unpredictable in their sleep.
These are sort of our light sleepers,or have inconsistent sleep rhythms.
(17:54):
I'm one of these folks, so Idon't know when my creative
moments are going to hit for me.
So, it's uber important for me thatI keep as much flexibility in my
schedule as possible and really trynot to overload myself in the afternoon
and evening, because this is usuallywhen I'm going to hit an energy slump.
And so, once you start thinkingthrough that, you give yourself a
lot more permission to work withwhat feels good for yourself.
(18:16):
And you also realize that noneof us are going to be a machine.
Nobody is going to
Lee Burgess (18:22):
wake up...
Oh wait, I'm not a machine?
Wait, what?
Lindsay Scola (18:26):
And sometimes it takes into our forties to figure this out.
Lee Burgess (18:29):
It's
Lindsay Scola (18:30):
true.
Lee Burgess (18:31):
But
Lindsay Scola (18:32):
if you are not somebody who naturally wants to wake up at
5:00 AM and go to the gym and feelyour best, you're never going to
force yourself to be that person.
And so, it's superimportant to tune into that.
And then, I think that as we're learningabout sleep and playing with sleep,
those of us that have been accustomedto this thing called "sleep hygiene" is
(18:52):
that it's a checklist, and if I don'tcheck off everything on it that I have
failed, I am now destined to be a badsleeper forever, and this is my fault.
And the thing is that it can be verysmall, manageable changes that help
us get the type of sleep that we need.
You might be more lightsensitive than you realize.
You might not have an issue fallingasleep because lights were on earlier,
but you might actually find thatlights in your room are actually waking
(19:14):
you up or making your sleep lighter.
In our room we have stickerson things that are indicator
lights that are keeping me awake.
The curtain behind me is a blackoutcurtain, so any light that's coming into
the room doesn't hit first thing in themorning, when my husband and I sleep a
little later than when the sun comes up.
And those micro-changes are really good.
As someone with ADHD, I have a constantnarrator running through my head.
(19:38):
And sometimes at night, the narratordoes not want to settle down, and the
narrator would like to go through aconversation I had in third grade,
and whether or not I said the rightthing in that moment, or if the teacher
who punished me for talking too muchin class that day was in the wrong.
And so, I have found that TVhelps quiet that narrator.
So for years I thought I needed tosleep with the TV on, and then the
(19:59):
light from the TV would wake me upand then I would be up in the night.
And so, it's just the dialogue from TV.
So now I sleep with a soundsleep mask that has a flat
panel so I can sleep on my side.
I set a 30-minute timer on myphone to turn off when it's done.
I put on a show I'm notemotionally invested in, so
it's something I've seen before.
Lighthearted comedies like Girls5evais one my jams to fall asleep to.
(20:21):
And then in 30 minutes it's off.
There's no light that's on.
And then the mask is a blackout mask, soany other light that's coming into the
room isn't keeping me up or waking me up.
And so, once you start thinkingabout, "Okay, what feels good for me?
Do I like sound when I go to sleep?
Do I want it to be pitchquiet when I go to sleep?
Does white noise help me fall asleep?"People play with different frequencies.
You've got white noise thatcan help you fall asleep when
(20:41):
there's other noise happening.
Pink noise, brown noise that cangive you different types of grounding
or different kinds of dreams.
Enjoy it and think of it as apuzzle that you're putting together.
I had a doctor who told me that Iwas going to feel really good on a
vegan diet that didn't have oil in it.
And when I started doing that,I was like, "Oh, the food tastes
amazing", but my body stopped moving.
(21:03):
Everything in my body just stoppedmoving and I was just a pile
of sludge, because it turns outthat was not a good diet for me.
And I do much better on aMediterranean diet with light
protein and olive oil in it.
And so, all of us are going todo different things at different
times and feel better doing it.
And that's okay.
Yeah,
Lee Burgess (21:20):
I think it's true.
We have to be on this journey tofigure things out for ourselves.
So, some of the kind of checklist ofthings that you have mentioned is that
if you're not sleeping enough or you'refeeling very tired, you want to start
looking at this traditional sleep hygienethat we've all read blog posts about.
It's like what's happeninginside your room.
And then you want to playwith it and experiment.
(21:42):
Have you ever worn a mask at night?
Have you ever had whitenoise or different noise?
When we travel with my kids, I have anapp that runs off of their iPads that
has all these different noises on it.
I mean, it's like the airplane, thefan, and they like airplane plus fan.
You can get really creative, but I thinkthere are so many options that didn't used
to be out there, that can help you feelmore at home, and also can help you sleep
(22:07):
when you travel, which is another issue.
But what are some of the other thingsyou think, other than sound and
darkness, that folks should play about?
I mean, you mentioned diet.
I think that's another thingthat can have an influence.
Eating too late.
I know for me personally, if I eattoo late at night, I don't sleep
particularly well, and that's becauseI'm now compulsive and do all this
data tracking on myself, which is itsown Type A personality thing to do.
Lindsay Scola (22:31):
If you're struggling with sleep, please be
careful about the data tracking.
Lee Burgess (22:34):
Yes.
Okay, tell me about
Lindsay Scola (22:35):
it.
So something's going to happen for us,especially when we're struggling with
sleep, that we try really hard to sleep.
Especially if you're a Type A personwho has thought that, "I have muscled
through everything else in my life, I'mnow going to muscle through sleep." And
effort is actually the opposite of sleep.
The more we try to say "I need tosleep, I need to sleep now", the more
our body is going to resist this,because we're turning our brain on.
(22:57):
We're actually using our brainfor something and doing the
opposite of what it needs to do.
So, if you're someone who sleepswell and having this data is
helpful and fun for you - great.
If you're someone who's strugglingwith your sleep, it can actually
have the opposite effect.
And so, first try to take as muchpressure off yourself as possible
for when you're struggling to sleep.
You might not be at a timewhere your brain wants to go
(23:19):
to sleep, so get out of bed.
If you've been in bed and wantingto fall asleep and it's been more
than 20 minutes and you're notasleep, get up and do something else.
That can be doing somethingrelaxing, going and reading a book
under some low light, listeningto some music outside of bed.
You feel sleepy, you come back.
Some people get up and do some more work.
You're using your brain forwhat it wants to be doing.
(23:40):
I just heard a great analogy, thatour brains are like a snow globe.
And so, sometimes when we want tobe falling asleep and our brain has
all of this going on, allow yourbrain to do what it needs to do,
and then come back and try again.
One night of low sleep is notgoing to be the end of you.
So we want to retrain our brains fromthinking, "Oh my God, tomorrow is wrecked.
I didn't get enough sleep, I'm goingto fail at everything I do tomorrow,
(24:03):
and then I'm going to fail every nightbeyond that." And more, it's like, "I've
had rough nights before and I've beenokay." And that's going to help you sort
of reframe everything that's going on.
And giving yourself grace willactually help you sleep a lot better.
If you are someone who struggleswith more negative thoughts at
night, try gratitude journaling.
I thought it was like the corniestthing ever when I first read about it.
(24:24):
And there's something about getting yourbrain into a more positive place before
you're trying to go to bed that's goingto help those racing thoughts die down
and get ready for a softer, calmer place.
And that doesn't have to be, "Iam so grateful for this major,
massive achievement." "I'mgrateful for having a warm bed.
I'm grateful for a goodconversation that I had today.
I'm grateful for the really extraordinarydinner that I had tonight." And so,
(24:47):
that just helps us reframe thingsto be in a softer, calmer place.
If you are someone that really enjoysbeing on your phone before you go
to bed, and you're having a hardtime falling asleep, it could be
the content that you're consuming.
So if you're watching a really dramaticTV show that's asking your brain to do a
lot of work, that might not be the thing.
I do like being on myphone before I go to bed.
(25:07):
I can't watch political contentright now, because it fires
up every nerve in my body.
So, I love watching people cleaningcast iron skillets on Instagram.
I'm never going to restorecast iron skillets.
I don't have a desire to do thisat all, but there's something so
extraordinarily calming for meabout watching other people do it.
And that sets me off to dreamland.
(25:28):
And I love doing it at nightand it makes me super happy.
So, whatever your jam is, trainyour algorithm, this is the
content that you want to see.
And figure out what you'retelling your brain is nighttime.
I'm really sensitive tosmell, in a good way.
Certain smells will remind me of things,certain smells will calm me down.
So, I found that I really like that.
L.A. has been so extraordinarily drythis winter, so I have a humidifier on
(25:52):
my nightstand now, and I put a littleessential oil in there of a smell that
calms me down, and it tells my body like,"Okay, it's time to calm down. It's time
to get ready for bed." So, there's a wholelong list of things we can play with.
Lee Burgess (26:02):
Yeah.
So, let's say that youare joining the workforce.
Maybe you are a young lawyer,you're joining a big firm or a
high stress job, and the narrativeis, everybody's exhausted because
everyone's working all the time.
So, how do you hold that narrative,and also the fact that you want
(26:25):
to work a productive amount oftime and still find that balance?
Lindsay Scola (26:31):
We are never going to all be in control of our schedules
100% of the time, every day.
And sometimes you are going to gothrough a period where you're going
to need to potentially do more workthan your brain is wired to do to
have the most restful time, protectas much piece of your day as you can.
If you're staying up later forwork, maybe you're pushing some
personal stuff to a later time.
(26:53):
I know that when I was working onCapitol Hill, when I was right out of
school, and we had things that weregoing late into the night, I still felt
like I had to meet all of these otherthings in my life, and so I was adding
a social life on top of that, and thengoing out later than that, and then you
still have to be at work the next day.
And I am not naturally a morning person.
So, I was pushing my body to dothings that it didn't want to do.
(27:13):
I think wake up as consistently at thesame time as you can every day, so that
when you get past that crazy time thatyou've been in, your body naturally
wants to go to sleep at this time becauseyou've sort of trained it for a cycle.
And again, lean into yourproductivity moments.
And this can be as simple as knowing thatevery day at 2:00 o'clock I have a slump.
(27:34):
And it's not necessarily thatyou need to take a nap at that
time, but maybe you go for a walk.
Maybe that's a time that you turn off allyour devices for 15 minutes and you listen
to something that is calming or funny, orjust stops your brain from working for a
moment, because that way you're actuallygoing to get your brain to pump back in.
And by giving yourself that 15 minutesof downtime, you've actually probably
(27:55):
given yourself three or four morehours of productivity after that.
And we can have diminishing returnsif we try to push, push, push,
because we think that we're in thisculture that everybody's working
at every moment of every day.
And you might actually find thatyou can get more work done if you're
giving yourself time to refresh.
Take these lessons in now, becauseyou're going to be the one that's
(28:16):
setting the tone 10, 15, 20 yearsfrom now, to make sure that we've got
happier, healthier workplaces where wecan probably get just as much done, but
we're getting it done in a way that'smuch healthier for us in the long term.
Lee Burgess (28:28):
Yeah.
I really like this idea of givingyourself those resets throughout the day.
We talk about that even for the bar exam,which is an all-day test, a multi-day test
that said that if you're losing focus,if you are crashing, you've got to just
close your eyes and take deep breaths.
Because I think we often forget thatif we just flood our body with oxygen,
(28:49):
it also helps kind of reset ourselves.
And so, I think so often we feel thatwe have to meet these lofty goals
to be these high-functioning people.
Before my third year of law school,I was working at a law firm, I had
just met my now husband, and so Iwas doing social things with him.
I had a summer associate job, so Iwas doing social things with the firm.
(29:09):
And it was very important to me thatI also try to work out before work.
One day, I was so tired and burnt outthat I ended up sleeping in my car in
the parking lot of the gym, becauseI was so tired that I could not make
myself go inside to go to the gym.
And it was just one of those momentswhere I'm like, "What am I doing?
(29:31):
This is just not normal or good foranyone." What does it mean when I have
gotten myself to the gym and it waslike 6:00 AM by the time I pulled in and
then my body was just like, "You mustgo back to sleep until 7:00 o'clock.
That is what we need more thananything else." And it was
really just an "aha" moment.
There are consequences topushing yourself too hard.
(29:53):
It will catch up with you.
You may not know when it's goingto catch up with you, but it will.
Lindsay Scola (29:58):
Absolutely.
And sleep is up there with breathingand eating and drinking water.
If you hold your breath for a certainperiod of time, you will pass out
and start breathing again, becauseyour brain is going to do what it
needs to do to take care of itself.
And so, if you are willinglydepriving yourself of this thing
that your body needs to function,it's going to find a way to happen
whether you want it to or not.
(30:19):
And you don't want that to be behindthe wheel of a car, which our focus and
our reaction time are a direct resultof getting good, functioning sleep.
If you're not sleeping, yourreaction time is dropping way down.
And sleep deprived driving is justas dangerous as drunk driving.
Lee Burgess (30:34):
Yeah.
Yeah, okay, so we've given a lot ofsuggestions, but if you had to kind of
bundle them all together and give the topthings you want folks to think about when
they talk about bettering their sleep,what would be your top handful of things?
Lindsay Scola (30:49):
Think about how much sleep you feel good at, and
get to a place where you knowaround what number you want to hit.
Lean into your natural rhythms duringthe day and give yourself grace to try
new things when things are failing.
And I'm going to give four.
If you are trying all these things andit's not working and you're still not
(31:10):
feeling good, know that sleep disordersare real, they affect a lot of people,
and that there is actual medical helpthat will help you live a much happier,
more productive, healthier life.
I am a testament to that.
Lee Burgess (31:21):
Amazing.
And that is great because we are outof time for today, but we're going
to come back with another episode onsleep where we're going to talk more
about sleep disorders and also howto advocate for yourself, so once
you know that you're struggling,you can get the help that you need.
So, thank you so much for your time today.
If folks want to learn more about yoursleep research and what you're talking
about with sleep, how can they do that?
Lindsay Scola (31:42):
LindsayScola.com.
I've got everything you need there.
Follow me on Instagram and LinkedIn,and can't wait to talk to you more.
Lee Burgess (31:48):
Do you post the cleaning of the cast iron skillets on your Instagram?
Do you
Lindsay Scola (31:53):
link to that?
because I'm not cleaning cast iron
Lee Burgess (31:54):
skillets.
Well, I didn't know if youjust share the content.
You're like, "Everyoneshould be watching this."
Lindsay Scola (31:59):
Maybe I need to put a reel together of this.
I need a reel of the cast ironskillets restorers that I watch,
because I am not restoring cast
Lee Burgess (32:06):
iron skillets.
Okay, I love it.
So, sleepy time.
It should be like a sleepytime cast iron skillet reel.
I'm going to look forit on your Instagram.
Lindsay Scola (32:14):
Coming to Spotify
Lee Burgess (32:15):
soon.
Okay.
Alright.
Alright, thanks so much foryour time today, Lindsay.
Thank you.
If you enjoyed this episode of theLaw School Toolbox podcast, please
take a second to leave a review andrating on your favorite listening app.
We'd really appreciate it.
And be sure to subscribeso you don't miss anything.
If you have any questions orcomments, please don't hesitate
to reach out to myself or Alisonat lee@lawschooltoolbox.com or
(32:38):
alison@lawschooltoolbox.com.
Or you can always contactus via our website contact
form at LawSchoolToolbox.com.
Thanks for listening, and we'll talk soon!
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