August 4, 2025 • 30 mins
Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast! In this episode we offer practical advice for law students on preparing for class, handling the Socratic method, and managing anxiety about being called on. We emphasize that mistakes are normal and that efficient reading and note-taking are key. We encourage law students to approach class participation as a learning opportunity and to focus on developing confidence and communication skills.
In this episode we discuss:
- What is the Socratic method and why do law schools use it?
- What is the most effective way to prepare for a law school class?
- How to manage anxiety about classroom participation
- What if you're genuinely unprepared for class one day?
Resources
- Start Law School Right! (https://lawschooltoolbox.com/start-law-school-right/)
- Podcast Episode 62: Surviving the Socratic Method in Law School (https://lawschooltoolbox.com/podcast-episode-62-surviving-the-socratic-method-in-law-school-classes/)
- Podcast Episode 102: How to Read Cases and Prepare for Class in Law School (https://lawschooltoolbox.com/16176-2/)
- Podcast Episode 398: Start Law School Right – The Socratic Method (https://lawschooltoolbox.com/podcast-episode-398-start-law-school-right-the-socratic-method/)
- Be Prepared and Speak Up! A Different Approach to the Socratic Method (https://lawschooltoolbox.com/be-prepared-and-speak-up-a-different-approach-to-the-socratic-method/)
- What's the Point of Reading Cases in Law School? (https://lawschooltoolbox.com/whats-the-point-of-reading-cases-in-law-school/)
- Notes? Case Briefs? Highlighting? How Do You Prepare for Class? (https://lawschooltoolbox.com/notes-case-briefs-highlighting-how-do-you-prepare-for-class/)
- Ahead of the Curve: What Should You Be Doing to Prepare for Class as a 1L and How Long Should It Take? (https://lawschooltoolbox.com/ahead-of-the-curve-what-should-you-be-doing-to-prepare-for-class-as-a-1l-and-how-long-should-it-take/)
Download the Transcript
(https://lawschooltoolbox.com/episode-515-how-to-prepare-for-class-and-not-freak-out-when-you-get-called-on-1l-summer-series/)
If you enjoy the podcast, we'd love a nice review and/or rating on Apple Podcasts (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/law-school-toolbox-podcast/id1027603976) or your favorite listening app. And feel free to reach out to us directly. You can always reach us via the contact form on the Law School Toolbox website (http://lawschooltoolbox.com/contact). If you're concerned about the bar exam, check out our sister site, the Bar Exam Toolbox (http://barexamtoolbox.com/). You can also sign up for our weekly podcast newsletter (https://lawschooltoolbox.com/get-law-school-podcast-updates/) to make sure you never
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lee Burgess (00:01):
Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast.
Today we're talking about howto prepare for class and not
freak out when you get called on.
Your Law School Toolbox hosts are AlisonMonaghan and Lee Burgess, that's me.
We're here to demystify the lawschool and early legal career
experience, so you'll be the bestlaw student and lawyer you can be.
We're the co-creators of the Law SchoolToolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and the
(00:23):
career-related website CareerDicta.
Alison also runs TheGirl's Guide to Law School.
If you enjoy the show, pleaseleave a review or rating on your
favorite listening app, and ifyou have any questions, don't
hesitate to reach out to us.
You can reach us via the contactform on LawSchoolToolbox.com,
and we'd love to hear from you.
And with that, let's get started.
Alison Monahan (00:48):
Welcome back!
Today we're talking about howto prepare for class and not
freak out when you get called on.
Well, Lee, for people who don't reallyunderstand, what is the Socratic
method and why do law schools use it?
Lee Burgess (01:03):
Well, the Socratic method is a very, very old,
old school way of teaching.
Alison Monahan (01:10):
Some might say, going back to Socrates, the ancient Greeks.
Also popularized, I think,in the 1800s at Harvard.
Lee Burgess (01:18):
Yeah.
So, it's a question-basedteaching approach.
So basically, instead of just saying,"Alison, will you explain this to me?",
or the professor even just saying...
Alison Monahan (01:29):
"The rule of evidence" or "The rule of hearsay is..."
Lee Burgess (01:31):
Yeah, "I'm going to tell you about the rules of evidence and
then I'm going to ask you very directquestions and you're just going to
spit back what I just told you."It is a more open-ended approach,
where you have to think on your feet.
You have to describe what youread, but you also are being asked
to think about the reading andapply it to different scenarios.
They must use it other places, butlaw school I think is where it is the
(01:52):
most popular and most widely used.
Alison Monahan (01:54):
Right.
Almost every law school class will beat least nominally based on the Socratic
method, which might sound something like,"Ms. Burgess, could you please give us
the facts of this case?" And then youwould recite the facts of this case.
That seems easy enough,but that's just a warmup.
And at some point it's going to getinto, "Oh well, you've told us this
was the holding of the case, but whatif the facts changed and instead of
(02:18):
the light being green, the light wasyellow?" And they'll go down these
pathways until you get to these questionsthat frankly no one can really answer.
And those are actually sort of the point.
Lee Burgess (02:29):
Yeah.
And I think it's tricky forfolks for a lot of reasons.
One, it can be very stressfulto be put on the spot.
Most people don't liketo be put on the spot.
Most old school Socratic methodprofessors won't warn you
you're going to get called on.
There're a lot of professors nowwho either warn you that you're
going to be on call or take morevolunteers, things like that.
(02:54):
But most people don't likebeing put on the spot.
Most people don't like being wrong infront of a lot of different people.
Alison Monahan (02:59):
Right.
Lee Burgess (03:00):
So, there's that too.
But luckily nobody remembers, except you.
So you can just hold that inyour heart for the future.
Alison Monahan (03:07):
Yeah.
But it is very "on the spot".
And sometimes if they're very oldschool, they might even have you
stand up so that you don't have anynotes, you can't look at your book.
It varies.
I think some people are doing morefriendly interpretations of things
like this now, but there are stillthose professors out there where
it's like you might be the onlyperson on the spot for 20 minutes.
(03:29):
You might be standing there in asea of 150 people looking at you,
or more likely online shopping.
But it can be very direct andvery intimidating for people.
And the reality is, your professor kindof holds the cards, and the best you can
do is sort of play along and try to yourbest to give them reasonable answers.
But there will come a point, mostlikely, where there is not an answer.
Lee Burgess (03:51):
No, and then they will typically release you.
Alison Monahan (03:53):
Right.
Lee Burgess (03:54):
And move on.
Alison Monahan (03:55):
Yeah.
So,
Lee Burgess (03:56):
there is that.
I think it's important tomaybe approach the Socratic
method with the growth mindset.
Alison Monahan (04:03):
Absolutely.
Lee Burgess (04:04):
That they do not expect you to be perfect.
Professors assume studentsare going to make mistakes.
Most law students have a story ofmaking mistakes while being on call.
I know you and I do.
Alison Monahan (04:18):
We can all share those.
Lee Burgess (04:19):
We can all share those, but everybody's lived through it.
The professors probably have thosefrom back when they were in law school.
So I think that if you could justapproach it and say, "It's developing my
critical thinking skills. I'm learningto think on my feet. I'm learning to
speak in a room of people." There'sa lot to be taken from it if you
Alison Monahan (04:38):
can
Lee Burgess (04:38):
keep it in the context of what it is.
So, I think you just have torealize that this is not the
end-all-be-all of your legal career.
This is a moment.
I will even tell you that I recently foundout that somebody on my tennis team and
I were in the same section of law school.
And I sort of recognized her,but it's been a long time and we
(04:58):
both have different last names.
And then when she told me her lastname, I was like, "Oh, now I know who
you were", because we only got calledon by our last names at that point.
And so, I didn't know everyone in mysection, but I definitely knew last names.
Alison Monahan (05:12):
Yeah, which I always found bizarre, because I came from San Francisco
to law school in New York, which wasvery formal, and always your last name.
It was just bizarre.
Yeah, so there are many people in myclass who I honestly, probably still
to this day, don't know their firstname, unless I was friends with them.
Lee Burgess (05:29):
I don't think she remembers me, and she doesn't remember any
of the dumb things I said in class.
Alison Monahan (05:34):
God, of course not.
I mean, who remembers anythingabout anything, really?
Lee Burgess (05:38):
I know, it's so true.
So, when you think about what theSocratic method is, and it does
seem intimidating, I think then youwant to think about how you prep for
it, because this is very different.
And this is a mistake I think a lotof law students make, is they don't
think about what class is going to looklike, and then they don't think about
what the exams are going to look like.
(05:58):
So, when we think about class, what you'rereally doing is you're reading these cases
that are going to be discussed in class.
Your goal is to be ablediscuss them in class.
That is why you read for class,and follow along, and play along.
And even if you're not the personon call, you can just thank the law
school spirits, who saved you that day.
Alison Monahan (06:17):
Who avoided you that day, right.
Right,
Lee Burgess (06:19):
exactly.
But the flip side is, the best way tolearn is to play along and see if you
could have answered those questions.
Alison Monahan (06:26):
Yeah.
Lee Burgess (06:27):
So, if we think about preparing for class in this way, then it
brings a different lens to the reading.
Reading strategies might be alittle different depending on the
length of the cases or even theclass, but it's important to know
that's the purpose of that reading.
And I think that gets lost in thediscussion of how to prepare for class.
Alison Monahan (06:48):
I think that's right.
And I think we see people who are kindof struggling in law school, who are
sometimes saying, "It's taking me so longto read these cases, I'm having to go back
and read them three or four times to geteverything out of them." That's a problem,
because you don't have time for that.
But also it's not, likeyou said, really the point.
We suggest you do the reading, Ithink it's a good way to absorb the
(07:09):
structure of legal reasoning, the waythat lawyers think about things, almost
by osmosis, by reading these cases.
Obviously, I know that not everylaw student reads every case, but
I think an overreliance on cannedbriefs just to kind of pull out the
key pieces really misses the point,because that's not totally the point.
I mean, you're not always going tohave a canned brief for a case that
(07:32):
you need to refer to as an attorney.
So, I think there's this balancehere of like, you do want to do the
reading and get through it to theextent you can, but you don't have
to understand every single detail.
You don't have to record every singledetail in some huge, long brief.
Sometimes people are spending an hourdoing a brief on something that it
took them an hour to read - that isnot an efficient use of your time.
(07:55):
So, as you're doing this reading,I think you've got to get efficient
with it, and also have ways to pullout these key facts, so that if you
do get called on it looks like youdid the reading, because frankly,
that's all anyone's really lookingfor in terms of participation points.
Yeah,
Lee Burgess (08:10):
I think that's true.
And I think that when you thinkabout briefing, it's not about
the hour-long perfect brief thatyou will never reference again.
It really is about the brief being...
Alison Monahan (08:22):
Brief.
Lee Burgess (08:23):
Yeah, brief.
Yes, fair point.
And it's supposed to refresh yourrecollection when you get to class.
I mean, they're notes, so youcan refresh your recollection.
You probably didn't read it rightbefore you walked into class.
So, you want to be able to look downand say, "Oh, these were the facts that
the case turned on" or, "Oh, this wasthe holding", or the main arguments, or
whatever your professor tends to focus on.
(08:44):
But they're there torefresh your recollection.
And I think that if you see briefingthat way, it's going to, one, be a
lot easier to do it, and two, it's notgoing to become this huge time suck.
And I think I could see studentsusing ChatGPT or whatever
to draft their own briefs.
That is not how you refresh yourrecollection, that is not how
(09:06):
you synthesize information intoa way that you can talk about it.
That is what the note-taking is for.
It's really, whether it's inthe book or whether it's on a
page, it's so you synthesize theinformation and can recall it.
Alison Monahan (09:19):
Right.
And I think sometimes people caneven take five minutes before class
to review your briefs for the day,or they flip through the book.
I mean, I did the book briefing, whereI literally drew a little picture,
and that to me was super helpful.
So, it doesn't matter what you do, youjust need to find something that works
with the way that you think and refreshesyour recollection, so if you do get called
(09:41):
on, you're like, "Oh yes, right, that wasthe case about the botched surgery. Let
me now go back into my brain and thinkabout that case briefly." But yeah, I
think there can be a lack of understandingof what we're reading these cases for.
And like you said, you're going to go toclass and talk about them, so you don't
have to have a perfect understandingI think that's unrealistic for every
(10:02):
single case before you get to class.
By the end of class, hopefully you have apretty good understanding of the case and
the material and what was the law in it.
But you don't need to go intoclass with a perfect understanding.
Lee Burgess (10:14):
And listen, some classes are going to be boring, like some cases.
I'm talking to you, Contracts andReal Property, and maybe Civil
Procedure are boring most of the time.
I mean, they can be dense.
Alison Monahan (10:28):
Come on.
You're chasing foxes.
You don't like foxes.
I know, they're
Lee Burgess (10:32):
like boats, yeah.
And Contracts.
But when you get into subjects that maybeyou find a bit more interesting, that
can also make it a little bit easier.
I think what's tricky about these lawschool classes is, you come to law
school, you're not very good at readingcases, you get assigned your first cases
and you're reading old English cases,some of them not even from the States.
(10:53):
You're reading cases fromEngland on common law, and it
is very hard to understand it.
And then you think, "Oh my goodness,I shouldn't be here. I'm not going to
be able to do this." And that is notwhat the modern practice of law is.
I think more modern casesare very different to read.
And so if you are worried about that andit's the summer before law school, or
(11:15):
you are just going into law school andyou have that feeling, just pull a recent
Supreme Court opinion and scan some of it.
It reads very differently.
I mean, they're also long and dense,but at least you can understand them.
Alison Monahan (11:29):
I will say though, I decided to do that the summer before
law school and I pulled a case thatwas interesting, and it was like
150-page opinion from the Supreme Court.
I was very happy when I got to law schoolto realize they edit cases for you.
Lee Burgess (11:41):
Good point.
Alison Monahan (11:42):
You're not reading the full thing.
So, if you're listening to this andyou're like, "I would have no idea",
you can do our Start Law SchoolRight program, we pick one case,
it's like, I don't know, a few pages.
But actually a fundamental case,you'll probably read it in law school.
But yeah, you probably want to maybelook at some cases to at least have
some understanding of them this summer.
You don't need to read a 150-pageSupreme Court opinion probably either.
(12:04):
Just
Lee Burgess (12:05):
don't read Pennoyer v. Neff and just feel like it's all over.
Alison Monahan (12:10):
No, yeah.
No one understands that case.
Lee Burgess (12:14):
No, nobody does.
Alison Monahan (12:16):
Yeah.
But
Lee Burgess (12:17):
here's the other thing
So, you get Pennoyer v. Neff andeverybody goes, "Oh no!", because it's
so painful to read and it's confusingand nobody knows what it's talking about.
And so, you have to just be ableto be okay with that, that this
is part of the journey, is thatyou're not going to know everything.
In some of these cases, you're goingto end up with more questions than
(12:38):
you will answers, and that's okay.
I think what's interesting is, bythe end of your legal career... I
remember taking classes which wereon more kind of cutting edge areas
of the law, where you're reading moremodern cases, and they're fascinating.
You're really in it, because youobviously care about the subject,
or you wouldn't be in the class.
And then you're soengaged with the material.
(12:58):
You just have to live through thePennoyers and the Carroll Towings
and all of these foundationalcases that nobody enjoys reading.
International Shoe.
And get to a point where you get toread the stuff that you're like, "Wow,
this is cool, this is interesting,and this is thought-provoking."
Alison Monahan (13:15):
Right.
Well, also you start to understanda concept like proximate cause
doesn't really have clearboundaries, and that's the point.
We live in this gray area as lawyers of,"Well, I think that this was the proximate
cause of this." "Well, I don't think so.
Alright, let's argue aboutthat." They're just concepts
to basically create arguments.
And so, I think when people try to definethe boundary and it has to be in the box
(13:38):
or out of the box, it's like we're dealingwith where the box is a little hazy.
Lee Burgess (13:41):
it's so true.
So, I've prepped for class,I've refreshed my recollection.
What do I do when I get called on?
What's the first thing youthink somebody should do?
Alison Monahan (13:52):
Well, I think the first thing they probably have to do is take
a deep breath and get over the shock oflike, "Oh gosh, this is really happening
right now." I actually won an auctionrecently and they called my name and
it was weird because I thought I wasgoing to win the auction, but when they
called my name, I just kind of sat therefor a second and didn't do anything.
And then I processed the, "Oh, theydid just call my name." So, I think
(14:15):
that's the first step, of the "Oh.
Oh, that's me."
Lee Burgess (14:19):
Yeah.
Yeah, there is that moment.
I remember that moment when you'relike, "Did he really say my last
name? Are you sure? He did, yeah."
"They
Alison Monahan (14:26):
did just say me, didn't they?
Sh*t."
Lee Burgess (14:28):
Yeah, exactly.
So, take a deep breath and startlistening, because I think that one of
the things that can happen when we havethat moment of shock is we stop listening.
Alison Monahan (14:39):
Right.
Your brain is offline at that point.
Your prefrontal cortex is notfunctional until you get it back online.
Right,
Lee Burgess (14:47):
so you get it back online.
And you can always ask theprofessor to repeat themselves
if you've lost the question.
You could say, "I'm so sorry, could yourepeat the question?" Be respectful.
But they're not going to be like, "No."
Alison Monahan (14:57):
No, definitely not.
They're going to be like, "Sure."
Lee Burgess (15:00):
Because the thing is, you have to put yourself
in the professor's position.
It only works if they can engage with you.
If this whole Socratic dialogueis a dud, the class doesn't work.
It's actually a hard thing to do.
I never ran a class that was in theSocratic method, but I have been a
professor that stood up there andasked for answers and feedback and
(15:22):
had the blank stare where everyone...Or worse, it's the laptop stare.
Nobody wants to make eye contactbecause they're worried that
you're going to get called on.
It's so painful as a professor.
So, if you play along respectfully,they will likely play along with you,
because they want it to be successful.
So if you can just keep that in mind,that they're probably not trying
(15:44):
to be mean, they're just tryingto do their job as they see it.
If you can be a good sport, they willlikely try to make it successful.
And if it really goes south, mostof those professors will release
you and move on to somebody else,because it doesn't serve them to
have a Socratic dialogue go nowhere.
Alison Monahan (16:03):
Right.
I think your goal is, if youhave information you can convey
to them that they ask about,convey that information simply.
You don't need to drone on.
They just ask you what the factsare, tell them the basic facts.
If they want more facts,they can ask for more facts.
If you have your notes in frontof you, that's a great place
to start using those briefs.
And I think also admitting whenyou just don't know the answer
(16:26):
to something is totally fair.
I mean, if it's a factualquestion, that's one thing.
If it's an opinion question,try to express an opinion.
But sometimes professors aren'tgreat at this and you just don't even
know where they're going with it.
In that case, I think it's totally fairto say, "Yeah, I'm not really a hundred
percent sure. Is there a different way youcan phrase that question?" or whatever.
Because we're all grownups here.
Lee Burgess (16:47):
Yes.
And again, no one will remember but you.
It feels like each one ofthese questions is like a
career-defining moment, and it's not.
It's really not.
Alison Monahan (16:57):
No.
And frankly, most exams are gradedanonymously anyway, so even if
you totally blow the day thatyou're on call, things happen.
Lee Burgess (17:06):
Yeah.
So, I think you just try to behelpful and play the professor's
game, because that's how class works.
And do your best.
And if you know your professor'spolicies, especially around not being
prepared for class, some professorshave policies that you can ask to pass.
Know when you can use it and if it'san acceptable answer, without getting
(17:28):
dinged on your class participation, ifyou have that as part of your grade.
But sometimes you need a pass.
Or sometimes if you've been sick,you can write to a professor
and ask them not to call on you.
I know that that's somethingthat professors will do.
I did have the flu and I was likea week behind, and I did write to a
professor and say, "I'm a week behind.I had the flu." And that professor was
not going to call on me, because italso wouldn't have worked in the class.
(17:51):
The class would've been awful if I hadjust been sitting there and being like,
"I'm still recovering from the flu, andI have no idea what you talking about."
Alison Monahan (17:58):
Yeah.
I remember once I got called on,randomly cold called, in a class of
like 150 people when I was not therebecause I was literally at Student
Health, getting an IV, because Ihad such terrible food poisoning.
But luckily my roommate was in the classand was able to say, "Actually, currently
she's at Student Health, getting anIV." And they're like, "Okay, cool.
(18:20):
We'll have to call on her later."
Lee Burgess (18:22):
Yeah, exactly.
But I will say if you do use thatpass, you better be prepared for
the next class, because oftentimesthen you'll be top of mind.
And so, you're probably not goingto get a pass for very long.
Alison Monahan (18:34):
Yeah.
So, a lot
Lee Burgess (18:34):
of this is just realizing that the weight we put on these
experiences is just unnecessary.
And I'm not minimizing how important itfeels, because it does feel important.
Every person who's been throughlaw school knows how important
it feels and appreciates that.
But in hindsight, you can seehow not career-defining it is.
(18:57):
And if you can just keep that inmind, I think it'll really help you
just play along and just realizethat was your day, and then, next
day it will be somebody else's.
And then many years you'll be on a tennisteam with someone and they won't even
remember that they were in your section.
Alison Monahan (19:13):
Right.
And I think it is good practice fortimes as an attorney that you might
be put on the spot, and you mightnot feel one hundred percent prepared
but you still have to give an answer.
Lee Burgess (19:25):
Yes.
In fact, I think one of the bestthings I have learned as a lawyer
was very early on in my job whereI was doing corporate defense.
There was this older, very experiencedpartner who'd been doing corporate
defense work for a very long time.
And they did product liability work,which meant that you had defendants who
were hurt in some way, often in sad ways.
(19:47):
And so, she said one of the most importantskills was to learn how to show empathy
without accepting responsibility.
She basically gave us the script ofall these things that you could say,
which in the moment I felt a littleyucky about, but I will tell you, I
use that script all of the time whensomeone is upset or being aggressive
(20:09):
towards you or just unloading on you.
And then I have a few things whereI can say, "Wow, that sounds so
awful." Which admits no fault.
Alison Monahan (20:20):
Right.
Lee Burgess (20:21):
You have these terms.
And I think that the education thatallows you to figure out what to do in
situations where you're caught off guard,where somebody is kind of unloading on
you, where you're in high stress - ifyou can develop skills to buy time, take
deep breaths, have a few first thingsthat you're going to say - it saves you.
And that script, I still rememberher, I think her name was Mary.
(20:43):
She had this crazy bun, she alwayshad her hair really tightly on top.
She looked like she was froma Jane Austen... But she was
incredibly good at what she did.
But her advice is some of the bestadvice I ever got as a lawyer.
And I think if you can see some ofthis class stuff that way of, "If
I can do this, then the time thatI get caught off guard on the phone
or I run into somebody somewhere,that I'm going to be able to handle
(21:06):
myself" - it makes it a little easier.
Alison Monahan (21:08):
Right.
I think it's actually a good way tosee how do other people come up with
ways to deflect questions or buy time?
What is a better answer too?
Is it, "Oh, that's a great question" or,"Oh, that's an interesting question"?
Some of these are going to land betterthan others, so you can kind of listen
to your classmates and pick out thepieces that later on when you're in
a situation trying to buy time (21:26):
"Oh, that's a very interesting question."
Lee Burgess (21:31):
Yes, I know.
I was actually doing an interview withsomeone, where they said "That's a great
question" to almost all of my questions.
Alison Monahan (21:40):
And you're like, "Actually they're not all great."
They're not
Lee Burgess (21:42):
all great.
But that was definitely theirlearned filler, to give them
time to prepare their answer.
It wasn't a bad filler, itwas clearly a learned skill.
So, I have a few of those in my pocket.
You know my other favorite one isthat when something is very bad or
I get surprised by information, Isay "Oh my!", which is appropriate
(22:03):
in almost every circumstance.
But I have had to learn that.
And you have been a witness to my "Oh my!"
Alison Monahan (22:11):
I have.
When I hear that, I'm like,"Oh, that's not good."
Lee Burgess (22:14):
I know.
You're like, "We're going to get thecheck, because something has gone down."
Alison Monahan (22:17):
Yeah, something is happening.
Check please!
We've got to get out.
I don't know what it is,but something is happening.
Lee Burgess (22:23):
Something.
The "Oh my!" only comes out whensomething serious has happened.
And I have trained myselfto say that that's what I do
when I get caught off guard.
That is my answer, because it's prettymuch appropriate in almost every
situation that comes up like that.
Alison Monahan (22:38):
And it's better than other options, like, "Oh, f*ck!"
Lee Burgess (22:41):
Exactly.
Alison Monahan (22:42):
We're really going to have bleep this podcast.
Sorry.
Lee Burgess (22:45):
We're going to have to bleep this podcast.
But yeah, there are other options, butthose aren't always socially appropriate.
So, memorize, think about it.
I think visualizationcould be powerful in this.
I'm going to get called on and Ihave no idea what the answer is.
What am I going to say?
Am I going to just ask themto repeat the question?
Am I going to say, "Could I havea moment?" Or am I going to say,
"Let me reference my notes"?
Whatever you want to say, like, "That's agreat question." I think if you have that
(23:08):
default answer, it can get you out of somesticky situations and it can buy you a
couple of minutes to gather your thoughts.
And if you'd like to borrow my "Ohmy!" trick, I highly recommend it.
It works on adults and children, in almostevery situation I have come up with.
Alison Monahan (23:23):
Well, I think that's a great segue into our last question,
which is (23:25):
How do I manage anxiety about classroom participation?
Because I know this is a bigthing for a lot of people.
They have a lot of anxietyabout the cold calls.
Lee Burgess (23:36):
Yeah.
Gosh, I think this is also hard, becausewe're allowed to be so prepared we can
come to class with all this documentation,you can have canned briefs, you can
have your own briefs, you can have thewhole Internet at your fingertips, and
you just feel this need, like, "If Icould just read the Internet, like the
depths of the Internet, I could find theanswer." The goal here is for it to be
(23:58):
a bit messy, and to make some mistakesand to wrestle with the material.
And I think if you can visualize thatand say, "It's okay, I'm not expected
to be perfect. The professors don'texpect perfection, and what I'm
trying to do is to play this gameand learn something" - I think that
can release some of the anxiety.
So I think you have todecide what the end game is.
(24:18):
And it's different from maybe the moviesthat you watched about the Socratic
method, because the end game is, it'sokay for it to be imperfect, because
you are a student and you're learning.
Alison Monahan (24:29):
Right.
I always try to frame it as, would Irather get something wrong in class
or would I rather misunderstandit and get it wrong on the final?
So, in a way, if you say somethingwhere the professor's like, "Hmm,
that's not really correct" or, "I don'treally agree with that" - that's great,
because you just got a misperceptioncorrected before it mattered.
Lee Burgess (24:50):
Yes.
Great.
Don't take notes on what you said,because you had the wrong answer.
Alison Monahan (24:54):
I'm like, "Nope, cross that out. Nope, that is not right." And I
think anxiety has physical manifestations,and this is where we said the deep breath.
I've heard it described as asnow globe being shaken up.
And you just may need a second to takea breath, get the brain back online.
But again, these are skills you arelearning that you're going to need
(25:16):
throughout your professional career.
Lee Burgess (25:18):
Yes, a hundred percent.
And I think that for a lot offolks, this feels just like public
speaking, everybody's staring at you.
Unfortunately, in most people's legalwork, you're going to be speaking in front
of some group of people, even if it'sjust your team, at a conference table.
And you have to be ableto find your own voice.
(25:39):
And I think that if you canuse some visualization and say,
"Okay, I'm in class, I get calledon, I feel the anxiety boil up.
Now what do I do?
I take my kind of deep cleansing breath.
I start to feel theoxygen return to my brain.
I'm maybe going to use some fillerwords to buy myself a couple of minutes.
(26:01):
I'm going to look at my brief, and thenI'm just going to do the best that I can.
And I might be honest if I don't know theanswer, and move on." I think if you can
just play it out for yourself, I thinkthat makes it a little less intimidating.
I would also say you can use class,unless you're the first person
to get called on in your class,which is just one of the many.
(26:22):
So the likelihood is,statistically it's not you.
It could be you, but it'sprobably not going to be you.
But you can play along with others andsay, "What would I say if the professor
asked me this?" And I think that canhelp you get more comfortable with this
idea of, "Maybe I did know the answer."
Alison Monahan (26:38):
Right, yeah.
And I think people can literallypractice this outside of class.
If you really have a fear of publicspeaking, you know that it's going
to be hard for you - well, you mighthave to do some extra work outside
of class to get more comfortable.
It might be a family member ora friend who's even not in law
school that can ask you questions.
I mean, anyone can ask you, "Can you tellme the facts of this case?" You could
(27:01):
even play both sides of it if you need to,or you could talk to ChatGPT, which will
now speak to you and have it interrogateyou, basically, about something.
And it doesn't really matter what itis; it's just, you've got to get used
to that feeling of like, "Ahhh!".
And then, "Oh right, okay, this isthe case about the boat", or whatever.
And the more you do that, you'regoing to become desensitized to
(27:21):
it, and it's not hopefully goingto be as anxiety-producing forever.
Lee Burgess (27:25):
Yeah.
And you're going to find your voice.
And I think anyone who is a lawyer hassomeone in their life who says, "Do
you not use that lawyer voice on me."
Alison Monahan (27:34):
Right.
Lee Burgess (27:34):
Or is that just me?
Alison Monahan (27:36):
No.
Lee Burgess (27:37):
No, that's just me and my family?
Hmm.
No, but I think we allhave a lawyer persona.
Like, we have a lawyer voice, wehave kind of a way we speak when
we're talking about certain things.
And you've got to develop that,because you want it to be authentic.
It's not all the same for everyone,but it's also just good practice.
Try out different things.
(27:57):
Do you like the way you soundtalking about this stuff?
Those are important questions.
And if you feel like you soundnervous and panicked - well,
that's great information too.
Spend time over the summer doing like aToastmasters or some sort of improv class.
I know that law students do stufflike that to get more comfortable
being up in front of people.
You can work on these skills if whatyou learn are your growth areas.
(28:21):
That's okay.
That's still great information.
Alison Monahan (28:24):
Right, because I think the reality is, you're going to a
profession that requires communication,so you need to be able to communicate.
Bottom line.
Lee Burgess (28:32):
Yeah.
You could go back and listen toour very early podcast episodes.
Alison Monahan (28:38):
We've gotten better.
Lee Burgess (28:39):
I haven't.
Alison Monahan (28:40):
I would not.
But
Lee Burgess (28:41):
I'm pretty sure I remember what they sound like.
Alison Monahan (28:44):
I don't remember, I blocked them out.
But those are some of themost popular episodes.
So we apologize for having noidea what we were doing, and
hopefully we've gotten better at it.
Lee Burgess (28:52):
And I was very nervous and I was thinking about every
single word that came out of mymouth and I was hypercritical.
It all happens to all of us, folks.
You just have to learn how to manage it.
And the thing is, I've recorded,oh my gosh, probably like 800.
I mean, I can't even imagine howmany podcasts I've done by myself,
with you, with other people.
Alison Monahan (29:11):
A lot.
Lee Burgess (29:12):
A lot.
I genuinely don't care anymore.
Genuinely, I have no feelings.
I may still choose what I wear orwhatever, but I do not think about how
I'll come off or what I'm saying asmuch, because I have an authentic voice.
And if you're here you probably enjoy it.
But we've found that, and that'swhat law school class does for you.
(29:34):
Find your lawyer voice, so you too canupset your family with your lawyer tone.
Alison Monahan (29:40):
Exactly.
Lee Burgess (29:41):
If you enjoyed this episode of the Law School Toolbox podcast, please
take a second to leave a review andrating on your favorite listening app.
We'd really appreciate it.
And be sure to subscribeso you don't miss anything.
If you have any questions orcomments, please don't hesitate
to reach out to myself or Alisonat lee@lawschooltoolbox.com or
alison@lawschooltoolbox.com.
Or you can always contactus via our website contact
(30:03):
form at LawSchoolToolbox.com.
Thanks for listening, and we'll talk soon!
Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast.
Today we're talking about howto prepare for class and not
freak out when you get called on.
Your Law School Toolbox hosts are AlisonMonaghan and Lee Burgess, that's me.
We're here to demystify the lawschool and early legal career
experience, so you'll be the bestlaw student and lawyer you can be.
We're the co-creators of the Law SchoolToolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and the
(00:23):
career-related website CareerDicta.
Alison also runs TheGirl's Guide to Law School.
If you enjoy the show, pleaseleave a review or rating on your
favorite listening app, and ifyou have any questions, don't
hesitate to reach out to us.
You can reach us via the contactform on LawSchoolToolbox.com,
and we'd love to hear from you.
And with that, let's get started.
Alison Monahan (00:48):
Welcome back!
Today we're talking about howto prepare for class and not
freak out when you get called on.
Well, Lee, for people who don't reallyunderstand, what is the Socratic
method and why do law schools use it?
Lee Burgess (01:03):
Well, the Socratic method is a very, very old,
old school way of teaching.
Alison Monahan (01:10):
Some might say, going back to Socrates, the ancient Greeks.
Also popularized, I think,in the 1800s at Harvard.
Lee Burgess (01:18):
Yeah.
So, it's a question-basedteaching approach.
So basically, instead of just saying,"Alison, will you explain this to me?",
or the professor even just saying...
Alison Monahan (01:29):
"The rule of evidence" or "The rule of hearsay is..."
Lee Burgess (01:31):
Yeah, "I'm going to tell you about the rules of evidence and
then I'm going to ask you very directquestions and you're just going to
spit back what I just told you."It is a more open-ended approach,
where you have to think on your feet.
You have to describe what youread, but you also are being asked
to think about the reading andapply it to different scenarios.
They must use it other places, butlaw school I think is where it is the
(01:52):
most popular and most widely used.
Alison Monahan (01:54):
Right.
Almost every law school class will beat least nominally based on the Socratic
method, which might sound something like,"Ms. Burgess, could you please give us
the facts of this case?" And then youwould recite the facts of this case.
That seems easy enough,but that's just a warmup.
And at some point it's going to getinto, "Oh well, you've told us this
was the holding of the case, but whatif the facts changed and instead of
(02:18):
the light being green, the light wasyellow?" And they'll go down these
pathways until you get to these questionsthat frankly no one can really answer.
And those are actually sort of the point.
Lee Burgess (02:29):
Yeah.
And I think it's tricky forfolks for a lot of reasons.
One, it can be very stressfulto be put on the spot.
Most people don't liketo be put on the spot.
Most old school Socratic methodprofessors won't warn you
you're going to get called on.
There're a lot of professors nowwho either warn you that you're
going to be on call or take morevolunteers, things like that.
(02:54):
But most people don't likebeing put on the spot.
Most people don't like being wrong infront of a lot of different people.
Alison Monahan (02:59):
Right.
Lee Burgess (03:00):
So, there's that too.
But luckily nobody remembers, except you.
So you can just hold that inyour heart for the future.
Alison Monahan (03:07):
Yeah.
But it is very "on the spot".
And sometimes if they're very oldschool, they might even have you
stand up so that you don't have anynotes, you can't look at your book.
It varies.
I think some people are doing morefriendly interpretations of things
like this now, but there are stillthose professors out there where
it's like you might be the onlyperson on the spot for 20 minutes.
(03:29):
You might be standing there in asea of 150 people looking at you,
or more likely online shopping.
But it can be very direct andvery intimidating for people.
And the reality is, your professor kindof holds the cards, and the best you can
do is sort of play along and try to yourbest to give them reasonable answers.
But there will come a point, mostlikely, where there is not an answer.
Lee Burgess (03:51):
No, and then they will typically release you.
Alison Monahan (03:53):
Right.
Lee Burgess (03:54):
And move on.
Alison Monahan (03:55):
Yeah.
So,
Lee Burgess (03:56):
there is that.
I think it's important tomaybe approach the Socratic
method with the growth mindset.
Alison Monahan (04:03):
Absolutely.
Lee Burgess (04:04):
That they do not expect you to be perfect.
Professors assume studentsare going to make mistakes.
Most law students have a story ofmaking mistakes while being on call.
I know you and I do.
Alison Monahan (04:18):
We can all share those.
Lee Burgess (04:19):
We can all share those, but everybody's lived through it.
The professors probably have thosefrom back when they were in law school.
So I think that if you could justapproach it and say, "It's developing my
critical thinking skills. I'm learningto think on my feet. I'm learning to
speak in a room of people." There'sa lot to be taken from it if you
Alison Monahan (04:38):
can
Lee Burgess (04:38):
keep it in the context of what it is.
So, I think you just have torealize that this is not the
end-all-be-all of your legal career.
This is a moment.
I will even tell you that I recently foundout that somebody on my tennis team and
I were in the same section of law school.
And I sort of recognized her,but it's been a long time and we
(04:58):
both have different last names.
And then when she told me her lastname, I was like, "Oh, now I know who
you were", because we only got calledon by our last names at that point.
And so, I didn't know everyone in mysection, but I definitely knew last names.
Alison Monahan (05:12):
Yeah, which I always found bizarre, because I came from San Francisco
to law school in New York, which wasvery formal, and always your last name.
It was just bizarre.
Yeah, so there are many people in myclass who I honestly, probably still
to this day, don't know their firstname, unless I was friends with them.
Lee Burgess (05:29):
I don't think she remembers me, and she doesn't remember any
of the dumb things I said in class.
Alison Monahan (05:34):
God, of course not.
I mean, who remembers anythingabout anything, really?
Lee Burgess (05:38):
I know, it's so true.
So, when you think about what theSocratic method is, and it does
seem intimidating, I think then youwant to think about how you prep for
it, because this is very different.
And this is a mistake I think a lotof law students make, is they don't
think about what class is going to looklike, and then they don't think about
what the exams are going to look like.
(05:58):
So, when we think about class, what you'rereally doing is you're reading these cases
that are going to be discussed in class.
Your goal is to be ablediscuss them in class.
That is why you read for class,and follow along, and play along.
And even if you're not the personon call, you can just thank the law
school spirits, who saved you that day.
Alison Monahan (06:17):
Who avoided you that day, right.
Right,
Lee Burgess (06:19):
exactly.
But the flip side is, the best way tolearn is to play along and see if you
could have answered those questions.
Alison Monahan (06:26):
Yeah.
Lee Burgess (06:27):
So, if we think about preparing for class in this way, then it
brings a different lens to the reading.
Reading strategies might be alittle different depending on the
length of the cases or even theclass, but it's important to know
that's the purpose of that reading.
And I think that gets lost in thediscussion of how to prepare for class.
Alison Monahan (06:48):
I think that's right.
And I think we see people who are kindof struggling in law school, who are
sometimes saying, "It's taking me so longto read these cases, I'm having to go back
and read them three or four times to geteverything out of them." That's a problem,
because you don't have time for that.
But also it's not, likeyou said, really the point.
We suggest you do the reading, Ithink it's a good way to absorb the
(07:09):
structure of legal reasoning, the waythat lawyers think about things, almost
by osmosis, by reading these cases.
Obviously, I know that not everylaw student reads every case, but
I think an overreliance on cannedbriefs just to kind of pull out the
key pieces really misses the point,because that's not totally the point.
I mean, you're not always going tohave a canned brief for a case that
(07:32):
you need to refer to as an attorney.
So, I think there's this balancehere of like, you do want to do the
reading and get through it to theextent you can, but you don't have
to understand every single detail.
You don't have to record every singledetail in some huge, long brief.
Sometimes people are spending an hourdoing a brief on something that it
took them an hour to read - that isnot an efficient use of your time.
(07:55):
So, as you're doing this reading,I think you've got to get efficient
with it, and also have ways to pullout these key facts, so that if you
do get called on it looks like youdid the reading, because frankly,
that's all anyone's really lookingfor in terms of participation points.
Yeah,
Lee Burgess (08:10):
I think that's true.
And I think that when you thinkabout briefing, it's not about
the hour-long perfect brief thatyou will never reference again.
It really is about the brief being...
Alison Monahan (08:22):
Brief.
Lee Burgess (08:23):
Yeah, brief.
Yes, fair point.
And it's supposed to refresh yourrecollection when you get to class.
I mean, they're notes, so youcan refresh your recollection.
You probably didn't read it rightbefore you walked into class.
So, you want to be able to look downand say, "Oh, these were the facts that
the case turned on" or, "Oh, this wasthe holding", or the main arguments, or
whatever your professor tends to focus on.
(08:44):
But they're there torefresh your recollection.
And I think that if you see briefingthat way, it's going to, one, be a
lot easier to do it, and two, it's notgoing to become this huge time suck.
And I think I could see studentsusing ChatGPT or whatever
to draft their own briefs.
That is not how you refresh yourrecollection, that is not how
(09:06):
you synthesize information intoa way that you can talk about it.
That is what the note-taking is for.
It's really, whether it's inthe book or whether it's on a
page, it's so you synthesize theinformation and can recall it.
Alison Monahan (09:19):
Right.
And I think sometimes people caneven take five minutes before class
to review your briefs for the day,or they flip through the book.
I mean, I did the book briefing, whereI literally drew a little picture,
and that to me was super helpful.
So, it doesn't matter what you do, youjust need to find something that works
with the way that you think and refreshesyour recollection, so if you do get called
(09:41):
on, you're like, "Oh yes, right, that wasthe case about the botched surgery. Let
me now go back into my brain and thinkabout that case briefly." But yeah, I
think there can be a lack of understandingof what we're reading these cases for.
And like you said, you're going to go toclass and talk about them, so you don't
have to have a perfect understandingI think that's unrealistic for every
(10:02):
single case before you get to class.
By the end of class, hopefully you have apretty good understanding of the case and
the material and what was the law in it.
But you don't need to go intoclass with a perfect understanding.
Lee Burgess (10:14):
And listen, some classes are going to be boring, like some cases.
I'm talking to you, Contracts andReal Property, and maybe Civil
Procedure are boring most of the time.
I mean, they can be dense.
Alison Monahan (10:28):
Come on.
You're chasing foxes.
You don't like foxes.
I know, they're
Lee Burgess (10:32):
like boats, yeah.
And Contracts.
But when you get into subjects that maybeyou find a bit more interesting, that
can also make it a little bit easier.
I think what's tricky about these lawschool classes is, you come to law
school, you're not very good at readingcases, you get assigned your first cases
and you're reading old English cases,some of them not even from the States.
(10:53):
You're reading cases fromEngland on common law, and it
is very hard to understand it.
And then you think, "Oh my goodness,I shouldn't be here. I'm not going to
be able to do this." And that is notwhat the modern practice of law is.
I think more modern casesare very different to read.
And so if you are worried about that andit's the summer before law school, or
(11:15):
you are just going into law school andyou have that feeling, just pull a recent
Supreme Court opinion and scan some of it.
It reads very differently.
I mean, they're also long and dense,but at least you can understand them.
Alison Monahan (11:29):
I will say though, I decided to do that the summer before
law school and I pulled a case thatwas interesting, and it was like
150-page opinion from the Supreme Court.
I was very happy when I got to law schoolto realize they edit cases for you.
Lee Burgess (11:41):
Good point.
Alison Monahan (11:42):
You're not reading the full thing.
So, if you're listening to this andyou're like, "I would have no idea",
you can do our Start Law SchoolRight program, we pick one case,
it's like, I don't know, a few pages.
But actually a fundamental case,you'll probably read it in law school.
But yeah, you probably want to maybelook at some cases to at least have
some understanding of them this summer.
You don't need to read a 150-pageSupreme Court opinion probably either.
(12:04):
Just
Lee Burgess (12:05):
don't read Pennoyer v. Neff and just feel like it's all over.
Alison Monahan (12:10):
No, yeah.
No one understands that case.
Lee Burgess (12:14):
No, nobody does.
Alison Monahan (12:16):
Yeah.
But
Lee Burgess (12:17):
here's the other thing
So, you get Pennoyer v. Neff andeverybody goes, "Oh no!", because it's
so painful to read and it's confusingand nobody knows what it's talking about.
And so, you have to just be ableto be okay with that, that this
is part of the journey, is thatyou're not going to know everything.
In some of these cases, you're goingto end up with more questions than
(12:38):
you will answers, and that's okay.
I think what's interesting is, bythe end of your legal career... I
remember taking classes which wereon more kind of cutting edge areas
of the law, where you're reading moremodern cases, and they're fascinating.
You're really in it, because youobviously care about the subject,
or you wouldn't be in the class.
And then you're soengaged with the material.
(12:58):
You just have to live through thePennoyers and the Carroll Towings
and all of these foundationalcases that nobody enjoys reading.
International Shoe.
And get to a point where you get toread the stuff that you're like, "Wow,
this is cool, this is interesting,and this is thought-provoking."
Alison Monahan (13:15):
Right.
Well, also you start to understanda concept like proximate cause
doesn't really have clearboundaries, and that's the point.
We live in this gray area as lawyers of,"Well, I think that this was the proximate
cause of this." "Well, I don't think so.
Alright, let's argue aboutthat." They're just concepts
to basically create arguments.
And so, I think when people try to definethe boundary and it has to be in the box
(13:38):
or out of the box, it's like we're dealingwith where the box is a little hazy.
Lee Burgess (13:41):
it's so true.
So, I've prepped for class,I've refreshed my recollection.
What do I do when I get called on?
What's the first thing youthink somebody should do?
Alison Monahan (13:52):
Well, I think the first thing they probably have to do is take
a deep breath and get over the shock oflike, "Oh gosh, this is really happening
right now." I actually won an auctionrecently and they called my name and
it was weird because I thought I wasgoing to win the auction, but when they
called my name, I just kind of sat therefor a second and didn't do anything.
And then I processed the, "Oh, theydid just call my name." So, I think
(14:15):
that's the first step, of the "Oh.
Oh, that's me."
Lee Burgess (14:19):
Yeah.
Yeah, there is that moment.
I remember that moment when you'relike, "Did he really say my last
name? Are you sure? He did, yeah."
"They
Alison Monahan (14:26):
did just say me, didn't they?
Sh*t."
Lee Burgess (14:28):
Yeah, exactly.
So, take a deep breath and startlistening, because I think that one of
the things that can happen when we havethat moment of shock is we stop listening.
Alison Monahan (14:39):
Right.
Your brain is offline at that point.
Your prefrontal cortex is notfunctional until you get it back online.
Right,
Lee Burgess (14:47):
so you get it back online.
And you can always ask theprofessor to repeat themselves
if you've lost the question.
You could say, "I'm so sorry, could yourepeat the question?" Be respectful.
But they're not going to be like, "No."
Alison Monahan (14:57):
No, definitely not.
They're going to be like, "Sure."
Lee Burgess (15:00):
Because the thing is, you have to put yourself
in the professor's position.
It only works if they can engage with you.
If this whole Socratic dialogueis a dud, the class doesn't work.
It's actually a hard thing to do.
I never ran a class that was in theSocratic method, but I have been a
professor that stood up there andasked for answers and feedback and
(15:22):
had the blank stare where everyone...Or worse, it's the laptop stare.
Nobody wants to make eye contactbecause they're worried that
you're going to get called on.
It's so painful as a professor.
So, if you play along respectfully,they will likely play along with you,
because they want it to be successful.
So if you can just keep that in mind,that they're probably not trying
(15:44):
to be mean, they're just tryingto do their job as they see it.
If you can be a good sport, they willlikely try to make it successful.
And if it really goes south, mostof those professors will release
you and move on to somebody else,because it doesn't serve them to
have a Socratic dialogue go nowhere.
Alison Monahan (16:03):
Right.
I think your goal is, if youhave information you can convey
to them that they ask about,convey that information simply.
You don't need to drone on.
They just ask you what the factsare, tell them the basic facts.
If they want more facts,they can ask for more facts.
If you have your notes in frontof you, that's a great place
to start using those briefs.
And I think also admitting whenyou just don't know the answer
(16:26):
to something is totally fair.
I mean, if it's a factualquestion, that's one thing.
If it's an opinion question,try to express an opinion.
But sometimes professors aren'tgreat at this and you just don't even
know where they're going with it.
In that case, I think it's totally fairto say, "Yeah, I'm not really a hundred
percent sure. Is there a different way youcan phrase that question?" or whatever.
Because we're all grownups here.
Lee Burgess (16:47):
Yes.
And again, no one will remember but you.
It feels like each one ofthese questions is like a
career-defining moment, and it's not.
It's really not.
Alison Monahan (16:57):
No.
And frankly, most exams are gradedanonymously anyway, so even if
you totally blow the day thatyou're on call, things happen.
Lee Burgess (17:06):
Yeah.
So, I think you just try to behelpful and play the professor's
game, because that's how class works.
And do your best.
And if you know your professor'spolicies, especially around not being
prepared for class, some professorshave policies that you can ask to pass.
Know when you can use it and if it'san acceptable answer, without getting
(17:28):
dinged on your class participation, ifyou have that as part of your grade.
But sometimes you need a pass.
Or sometimes if you've been sick,you can write to a professor
and ask them not to call on you.
I know that that's somethingthat professors will do.
I did have the flu and I was likea week behind, and I did write to a
professor and say, "I'm a week behind.I had the flu." And that professor was
not going to call on me, because italso wouldn't have worked in the class.
(17:51):
The class would've been awful if I hadjust been sitting there and being like,
"I'm still recovering from the flu, andI have no idea what you talking about."
Alison Monahan (17:58):
Yeah.
I remember once I got called on,randomly cold called, in a class of
like 150 people when I was not therebecause I was literally at Student
Health, getting an IV, because Ihad such terrible food poisoning.
But luckily my roommate was in the classand was able to say, "Actually, currently
she's at Student Health, getting anIV." And they're like, "Okay, cool.
(18:20):
We'll have to call on her later."
Lee Burgess (18:22):
Yeah, exactly.
But I will say if you do use thatpass, you better be prepared for
the next class, because oftentimesthen you'll be top of mind.
And so, you're probably not goingto get a pass for very long.
Alison Monahan (18:34):
Yeah.
So, a lot
Lee Burgess (18:34):
of this is just realizing that the weight we put on these
experiences is just unnecessary.
And I'm not minimizing how important itfeels, because it does feel important.
Every person who's been throughlaw school knows how important
it feels and appreciates that.
But in hindsight, you can seehow not career-defining it is.
(18:57):
And if you can just keep that inmind, I think it'll really help you
just play along and just realizethat was your day, and then, next
day it will be somebody else's.
And then many years you'll be on a tennisteam with someone and they won't even
remember that they were in your section.
Alison Monahan (19:13):
Right.
And I think it is good practice fortimes as an attorney that you might
be put on the spot, and you mightnot feel one hundred percent prepared
but you still have to give an answer.
Lee Burgess (19:25):
Yes.
In fact, I think one of the bestthings I have learned as a lawyer
was very early on in my job whereI was doing corporate defense.
There was this older, very experiencedpartner who'd been doing corporate
defense work for a very long time.
And they did product liability work,which meant that you had defendants who
were hurt in some way, often in sad ways.
(19:47):
And so, she said one of the most importantskills was to learn how to show empathy
without accepting responsibility.
She basically gave us the script ofall these things that you could say,
which in the moment I felt a littleyucky about, but I will tell you, I
use that script all of the time whensomeone is upset or being aggressive
(20:09):
towards you or just unloading on you.
And then I have a few things whereI can say, "Wow, that sounds so
awful." Which admits no fault.
Alison Monahan (20:20):
Right.
Lee Burgess (20:21):
You have these terms.
And I think that the education thatallows you to figure out what to do in
situations where you're caught off guard,where somebody is kind of unloading on
you, where you're in high stress - ifyou can develop skills to buy time, take
deep breaths, have a few first thingsthat you're going to say - it saves you.
And that script, I still rememberher, I think her name was Mary.
(20:43):
She had this crazy bun, she alwayshad her hair really tightly on top.
She looked like she was froma Jane Austen... But she was
incredibly good at what she did.
But her advice is some of the bestadvice I ever got as a lawyer.
And I think if you can see some ofthis class stuff that way of, "If
I can do this, then the time thatI get caught off guard on the phone
or I run into somebody somewhere,that I'm going to be able to handle
(21:06):
myself" - it makes it a little easier.
Alison Monahan (21:08):
Right.
I think it's actually a good way tosee how do other people come up with
ways to deflect questions or buy time?
What is a better answer too?
Is it, "Oh, that's a great question" or,"Oh, that's an interesting question"?
Some of these are going to land betterthan others, so you can kind of listen
to your classmates and pick out thepieces that later on when you're in
a situation trying to buy time (21:26):
"Oh, that's a very interesting question."
Lee Burgess (21:31):
Yes, I know.
I was actually doing an interview withsomeone, where they said "That's a great
question" to almost all of my questions.
Alison Monahan (21:40):
And you're like, "Actually they're not all great."
They're not
Lee Burgess (21:42):
all great.
But that was definitely theirlearned filler, to give them
time to prepare their answer.
It wasn't a bad filler, itwas clearly a learned skill.
So, I have a few of those in my pocket.
You know my other favorite one isthat when something is very bad or
I get surprised by information, Isay "Oh my!", which is appropriate
(22:03):
in almost every circumstance.
But I have had to learn that.
And you have been a witness to my "Oh my!"
Alison Monahan (22:11):
I have.
When I hear that, I'm like,"Oh, that's not good."
Lee Burgess (22:14):
I know.
You're like, "We're going to get thecheck, because something has gone down."
Alison Monahan (22:17):
Yeah, something is happening.
Check please!
We've got to get out.
I don't know what it is,but something is happening.
Lee Burgess (22:23):
Something.
The "Oh my!" only comes out whensomething serious has happened.
And I have trained myselfto say that that's what I do
when I get caught off guard.
That is my answer, because it's prettymuch appropriate in almost every
situation that comes up like that.
Alison Monahan (22:38):
And it's better than other options, like, "Oh, f*ck!"
Lee Burgess (22:41):
Exactly.
Alison Monahan (22:42):
We're really going to have bleep this podcast.
Sorry.
Lee Burgess (22:45):
We're going to have to bleep this podcast.
But yeah, there are other options, butthose aren't always socially appropriate.
So, memorize, think about it.
I think visualizationcould be powerful in this.
I'm going to get called on and Ihave no idea what the answer is.
What am I going to say?
Am I going to just ask themto repeat the question?
Am I going to say, "Could I havea moment?" Or am I going to say,
"Let me reference my notes"?
Whatever you want to say, like, "That's agreat question." I think if you have that
(23:08):
default answer, it can get you out of somesticky situations and it can buy you a
couple of minutes to gather your thoughts.
And if you'd like to borrow my "Ohmy!" trick, I highly recommend it.
It works on adults and children, in almostevery situation I have come up with.
Alison Monahan (23:23):
Well, I think that's a great segue into our last question,
which is (23:25):
How do I manage anxiety about classroom participation?
Because I know this is a bigthing for a lot of people.
They have a lot of anxietyabout the cold calls.
Lee Burgess (23:36):
Yeah.
Gosh, I think this is also hard, becausewe're allowed to be so prepared we can
come to class with all this documentation,you can have canned briefs, you can
have your own briefs, you can have thewhole Internet at your fingertips, and
you just feel this need, like, "If Icould just read the Internet, like the
depths of the Internet, I could find theanswer." The goal here is for it to be
(23:58):
a bit messy, and to make some mistakesand to wrestle with the material.
And I think if you can visualize thatand say, "It's okay, I'm not expected
to be perfect. The professors don'texpect perfection, and what I'm
trying to do is to play this gameand learn something" - I think that
can release some of the anxiety.
So I think you have todecide what the end game is.
(24:18):
And it's different from maybe the moviesthat you watched about the Socratic
method, because the end game is, it'sokay for it to be imperfect, because
you are a student and you're learning.
Alison Monahan (24:29):
Right.
I always try to frame it as, would Irather get something wrong in class
or would I rather misunderstandit and get it wrong on the final?
So, in a way, if you say somethingwhere the professor's like, "Hmm,
that's not really correct" or, "I don'treally agree with that" - that's great,
because you just got a misperceptioncorrected before it mattered.
Lee Burgess (24:50):
Yes.
Great.
Don't take notes on what you said,because you had the wrong answer.
Alison Monahan (24:54):
I'm like, "Nope, cross that out. Nope, that is not right." And I
think anxiety has physical manifestations,and this is where we said the deep breath.
I've heard it described as asnow globe being shaken up.
And you just may need a second to takea breath, get the brain back online.
But again, these are skills you arelearning that you're going to need
(25:16):
throughout your professional career.
Lee Burgess (25:18):
Yes, a hundred percent.
And I think that for a lot offolks, this feels just like public
speaking, everybody's staring at you.
Unfortunately, in most people's legalwork, you're going to be speaking in front
of some group of people, even if it'sjust your team, at a conference table.
And you have to be ableto find your own voice.
(25:39):
And I think that if you canuse some visualization and say,
"Okay, I'm in class, I get calledon, I feel the anxiety boil up.
Now what do I do?
I take my kind of deep cleansing breath.
I start to feel theoxygen return to my brain.
I'm maybe going to use some fillerwords to buy myself a couple of minutes.
(26:01):
I'm going to look at my brief, and thenI'm just going to do the best that I can.
And I might be honest if I don't know theanswer, and move on." I think if you can
just play it out for yourself, I thinkthat makes it a little less intimidating.
I would also say you can use class,unless you're the first person
to get called on in your class,which is just one of the many.
(26:22):
So the likelihood is,statistically it's not you.
It could be you, but it'sprobably not going to be you.
But you can play along with others andsay, "What would I say if the professor
asked me this?" And I think that canhelp you get more comfortable with this
idea of, "Maybe I did know the answer."
Alison Monahan (26:38):
Right, yeah.
And I think people can literallypractice this outside of class.
If you really have a fear of publicspeaking, you know that it's going
to be hard for you - well, you mighthave to do some extra work outside
of class to get more comfortable.
It might be a family member ora friend who's even not in law
school that can ask you questions.
I mean, anyone can ask you, "Can you tellme the facts of this case?" You could
(27:01):
even play both sides of it if you need to,or you could talk to ChatGPT, which will
now speak to you and have it interrogateyou, basically, about something.
And it doesn't really matter what itis; it's just, you've got to get used
to that feeling of like, "Ahhh!".
And then, "Oh right, okay, this isthe case about the boat", or whatever.
And the more you do that, you'regoing to become desensitized to
(27:21):
it, and it's not hopefully goingto be as anxiety-producing forever.
Lee Burgess (27:25):
Yeah.
And you're going to find your voice.
And I think anyone who is a lawyer hassomeone in their life who says, "Do
you not use that lawyer voice on me."
Alison Monahan (27:34):
Right.
Lee Burgess (27:34):
Or is that just me?
Alison Monahan (27:36):
No.
Lee Burgess (27:37):
No, that's just me and my family?
Hmm.
No, but I think we allhave a lawyer persona.
Like, we have a lawyer voice, wehave kind of a way we speak when
we're talking about certain things.
And you've got to develop that,because you want it to be authentic.
It's not all the same for everyone,but it's also just good practice.
Try out different things.
(27:57):
Do you like the way you soundtalking about this stuff?
Those are important questions.
And if you feel like you soundnervous and panicked - well,
that's great information too.
Spend time over the summer doing like aToastmasters or some sort of improv class.
I know that law students do stufflike that to get more comfortable
being up in front of people.
You can work on these skills if whatyou learn are your growth areas.
(28:21):
That's okay.
That's still great information.
Alison Monahan (28:24):
Right, because I think the reality is, you're going to a
profession that requires communication,so you need to be able to communicate.
Bottom line.
Lee Burgess (28:32):
Yeah.
You could go back and listen toour very early podcast episodes.
Alison Monahan (28:38):
We've gotten better.
Lee Burgess (28:39):
I haven't.
Alison Monahan (28:40):
I would not.
But
Lee Burgess (28:41):
I'm pretty sure I remember what they sound like.
Alison Monahan (28:44):
I don't remember, I blocked them out.
But those are some of themost popular episodes.
So we apologize for having noidea what we were doing, and
hopefully we've gotten better at it.
Lee Burgess (28:52):
And I was very nervous and I was thinking about every
single word that came out of mymouth and I was hypercritical.
It all happens to all of us, folks.
You just have to learn how to manage it.
And the thing is, I've recorded,oh my gosh, probably like 800.
I mean, I can't even imagine howmany podcasts I've done by myself,
with you, with other people.
Alison Monahan (29:11):
A lot.
Lee Burgess (29:12):
A lot.
I genuinely don't care anymore.
Genuinely, I have no feelings.
I may still choose what I wear orwhatever, but I do not think about how
I'll come off or what I'm saying asmuch, because I have an authentic voice.
And if you're here you probably enjoy it.
But we've found that, and that'swhat law school class does for you.
(29:34):
Find your lawyer voice, so you too canupset your family with your lawyer tone.
Alison Monahan (29:40):
Exactly.
Lee Burgess (29:41):
If you enjoyed this episode of the Law School Toolbox podcast, please
take a second to leave a review andrating on your favorite listening app.
We'd really appreciate it.
And be sure to subscribeso you don't miss anything.
If you have any questions orcomments, please don't hesitate
to reach out to myself or Alisonat lee@lawschooltoolbox.com or
alison@lawschooltoolbox.com.
Or you can always contactus via our website contact
(30:03):
form at LawSchoolToolbox.com.
Thanks for listening, and we'll talk soon!
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