August 5, 2025 • 52 mins
Hosted by Dr. Sarah Hensley, Specialized Social Psychologist, Attachment Theory Expert, and Founder & CEO of The Love Doc Relationship Coaching Services with Co-host Raina Butcher, Owner/CEO of Joyful Consulting, LLC.
Welcome to "The Love Doc Podcast" Season II, where Host Dr. Sarah Hensley and her co-host Raina Butcher dive deep into the intricacies of love, attraction, attachment, relationships, and self-awareness. Dr. Hensley brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to help listeners navigate the complexities of modern romance. In each episode, Dr. Hensley tackles burning questions about love, relationships, and the mind’s complexities, drawing from her psychological research, real-life experiences, and her own individual expertise, to provide insightful perspectives and practical advice.
Episode 11 – “Betrayal by the Dollar: The Hidden Wounds of Financial Infidelity”
In this raw and eye-opening episode of The Love Doc Podcast, Dr. Sarah Hensley and co-host Raina Joy Butcher dive deep into one of the most overlooked yet devastating forms of betrayal in romantic relationships: financial infidelity. Continuing their powerful financial series, Episode 11 unpacks the hidden dynamics behind the misuse of money in intimate partnerships — not just as a resource, but as a tool of control, secrecy, and even revenge. With real-life stories, personal reflections, and clinical insight, this episode offers clarity, compassion, and guidance for those silently suffering in relationships where money is used as a weapon instead of a shared value.
The episode begins by examining financial control and coercion — two insidious forms of financial infidelity that leave many partners emotionally paralyzed and psychologically trapped. Whether it's one partner dictating all financial decisions, withholding access to accounts, or using money to manipulate behaviors and choices, the hosts expose how financial power plays erode trust, dignity, and a sense of partnership. Many victims of this type of control feel emotionally blackmailed into staying, even when they desperately want to leave. Dr. Hensley and Raina highlight how the shame, fear, and isolation surrounding financial coercion often go unnoticed — yet the consequences are long-lasting and deeply damaging to a person’s mental health and autonomy.
The conversation then moves into secret spending, a subtler but equally destructive form of financial infidelity. From hidden credit cards to secret online purchases, the hosts unpack how these actions become betrayals of both financial trust and emotional intimacy. Often rooted in guilt, resentment, or unmet needs, secret spending fractures the foundation of honesty that secure relationships are built on. Listeners will hear why this behavior often creates a growing emotional gap — one that’s harder to repair than many realize. Dr. Hensley offers a compassionate take on the underlying insecurities and attachment wounds that often drive this type of behavior, providing listeners with language to recognize and address it in their own relationships.
The episode culminates in a candid and courageous discussion on revenge spending, the reactive, emotionally-charged use of money in the aftermath of a major relationship rupture. Whether it's a response to a heated argument or triggered by a partner’s request for separation or divorce, revenge spending becomes a way to assert power or express hurt. Dr. Hensley and Raina both open up about their childhood experiences with financial conflict — Sarah recalling the volatility of her father’s financial behaviors, and Raina reflecting on how her mother’s money choices strained her parents’ marriage both during and excspecially post divorce. These powerful personal stories shed light on how early money dynamics shape our adult relationships and sense of self-worth. They also reflect on their own romantic relationships, sharing moments where money became a source of pain, confusion, and reflection.
To close the episode, Dr. Hensley offers practical and preventative guidance for couples looking to protect their relationship from financial betrayal. She shares thoughtful, research-based strategies to establish financial transparency, healthy boundaries, and ongoing dialogue about money as a shared value rather than a hidden battlefield. With warmth and wisdom, this episode affirms that while financial infidelity can feel like an invisible rupture, healing is possible with honesty, accountability, and mutual respect. If you've ever felt like money was used against you instead of with you in a relationship — or if you're simply ready to build healthier financial habits with your partner — this episode is a must-listen.
Tune in to "The Love Doc Podcast" every Tuesday morning for candid conversations, expert guidance, and a deeper understanding of life, love and relationships in the modern world. To see al
Welcome to "The Love Doc Podcast" Season II, where Host Dr. Sarah Hensley and her co-host Raina Butcher dive deep into the intricacies of love, attraction, attachment, relationships, and self-awareness. Dr. Hensley brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to help listeners navigate the complexities of modern romance. In each episode, Dr. Hensley tackles burning questions about love, relationships, and the mind’s complexities, drawing from her psychological research, real-life experiences, and her own individual expertise, to provide insightful perspectives and practical advice.
Episode 11 – “Betrayal by the Dollar: The Hidden Wounds of Financial Infidelity”
In this raw and eye-opening episode of The Love Doc Podcast, Dr. Sarah Hensley and co-host Raina Joy Butcher dive deep into one of the most overlooked yet devastating forms of betrayal in romantic relationships: financial infidelity. Continuing their powerful financial series, Episode 11 unpacks the hidden dynamics behind the misuse of money in intimate partnerships — not just as a resource, but as a tool of control, secrecy, and even revenge. With real-life stories, personal reflections, and clinical insight, this episode offers clarity, compassion, and guidance for those silently suffering in relationships where money is used as a weapon instead of a shared value.
The episode begins by examining financial control and coercion — two insidious forms of financial infidelity that leave many partners emotionally paralyzed and psychologically trapped. Whether it's one partner dictating all financial decisions, withholding access to accounts, or using money to manipulate behaviors and choices, the hosts expose how financial power plays erode trust, dignity, and a sense of partnership. Many victims of this type of control feel emotionally blackmailed into staying, even when they desperately want to leave. Dr. Hensley and Raina highlight how the shame, fear, and isolation surrounding financial coercion often go unnoticed — yet the consequences are long-lasting and deeply damaging to a person’s mental health and autonomy.
The conversation then moves into secret spending, a subtler but equally destructive form of financial infidelity. From hidden credit cards to secret online purchases, the hosts unpack how these actions become betrayals of both financial trust and emotional intimacy. Often rooted in guilt, resentment, or unmet needs, secret spending fractures the foundation of honesty that secure relationships are built on. Listeners will hear why this behavior often creates a growing emotional gap — one that’s harder to repair than many realize. Dr. Hensley offers a compassionate take on the underlying insecurities and attachment wounds that often drive this type of behavior, providing listeners with language to recognize and address it in their own relationships.
The episode culminates in a candid and courageous discussion on revenge spending, the reactive, emotionally-charged use of money in the aftermath of a major relationship rupture. Whether it's a response to a heated argument or triggered by a partner’s request for separation or divorce, revenge spending becomes a way to assert power or express hurt. Dr. Hensley and Raina both open up about their childhood experiences with financial conflict — Sarah recalling the volatility of her father’s financial behaviors, and Raina reflecting on how her mother’s money choices strained her parents’ marriage both during and excspecially post divorce. These powerful personal stories shed light on how early money dynamics shape our adult relationships and sense of self-worth. They also reflect on their own romantic relationships, sharing moments where money became a source of pain, confusion, and reflection.
To close the episode, Dr. Hensley offers practical and preventative guidance for couples looking to protect their relationship from financial betrayal. She shares thoughtful, research-based strategies to establish financial transparency, healthy boundaries, and ongoing dialogue about money as a shared value rather than a hidden battlefield. With warmth and wisdom, this episode affirms that while financial infidelity can feel like an invisible rupture, healing is possible with honesty, accountability, and mutual respect. If you've ever felt like money was used against you instead of with you in a relationship — or if you're simply ready to build healthier financial habits with your partner — this episode is a must-listen.
Tune in to "The Love Doc Podcast" every Tuesday morning for candid conversations, expert guidance, and a deeper understanding of life, love and relationships in the modern world. To see al
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Love Dog Podcast. I'm your co host
Rena Butcher here with our host, doctor Sarah Hinsley, the owner, founder,
and CEO of the Love Doc relationship coaching services and
of course, the Love Dog Podcast. You can find her
at the lovedoc dot com and of course all of
her social media handles at doctor Hinsley. Yeah, Hey, Hey,
(00:32):
what's up?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Not much, man, I feel like you've been gone forever.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I feel like I was gone forever too, and it
feels good to be back. I mean honestly, so, I
just got back from Alaska, and anyone who's ever been
or never been. For those that have been, I totally
get it. For those that live there, like I get
it now because I always thought, like, what is the
appeal of Alaska? Because it's dark like eight months out
(00:58):
of the.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Year that I don't know if I could handle.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, it rains all the time. It rains like I think,
like three hundred and fourteen days out of the year.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh dang.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
But like since I've been there, and of course we
took a cruise, so we got to do Sitka, catch
a can Juno and then we ended in British Columbia.
Of course, which isn't Alaska, but it was just the vastness.
And really the wildness of Alaska is what's so appealing.
(01:28):
Because you're just constantly surrounded by nature. You feel free.
The air. I mean, I kept I kept joking with
Josh because I was like this air.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I love this air.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I was like, I want to marry this air. He
was like, golly, come down. I was like, my lung
but my lungs felt so open.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, it's just cleaner, less pollution.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Oh gosh. And again, you know, I mean to put
it in perspective. We live in Lexington, Kentucky. Population in
Lexington's like a little over three hundred and thirty thousand people. Yep.
Alaska is bigger than Montana, Texas, and California combined. Total
population for the entire state is a little over seven
hundred thousand.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah. I would like that. I know, I get so
frustrated in like high populated areas, Like you know, we
were in New York two weeks ago, I guess it
was two weeks ago, and just it was so hot
and there were so many people, so the like the
body heat I think just made it hotter. And then
the cars. I was so hot in New York.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I was like a heaviness.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
It was very heavy. Yeah, And I was just like,
I don't know if I made to be My daughter
wants to be in a big city. That's like her
dream to grow up and be a big city girl,
New York preferably, or maybe even Chicago, where my brother lives.
And I'm just like, you know, it was a wonderful visit.
There's so much really cool stuff in New York. I
mean really cool stuff. Lots of culture, lots of history.
(02:53):
Obviously we did you know, yeah, diversity, but I just
I get kind of clusterphobic a little bit, you know,
with lots of people around me. Yeah, I get. And
like we took the subway everywhere, and so it was
just constantly like this, yeah, just kind of hyper looking over.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
My shoulder, even in Seattle, because we poured it in
and out of Seattle, and I mean Josh and I
were talking about it, like, I just when we were
walking around downtown Seattle and we went to Pike Place,
and I mean there's people everywhere. It's like Chinatown and
New York.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, and I went to Chinatown and it's overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
It's so overwhelming because one, there's so many things to buy,
and two there's I mean, you can't escape the people.
I mean your shoulder to shoulder, and it's just so overwhelming.
And I felt like, like even when we were sitting
down by the bay, we were sitting on these like
concrete steps, and I was like, I'm going to move
down one, I said, because I feel so exposed and
(03:51):
there's so many people, and you, like my brain not
it's not thinking the worst. I just want to be
mentally prepared that if something was to go down, like
I could protect myself under like underneath that concrete step,
you know, like co take guard or whatever. But there's
no way I could ever live in a big city. Yeah,
(04:11):
I'm a country girl at heart.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I know, I'm sort of like torn like I like
having access to things things, Yeah, but I also love
being out in the country. And so that's why I
think Lexington's just such a great compromise because it's a
very small, big city, so you you still have a
lot of stuff, but it's not overwhelming, right, you know,
you can kind of get anywhere in Lexington in twenty
(04:35):
five minutes. It's like the twenty five minute time mark
is just where you can go, but I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
I'm ready to leave even Lexington. Yeah, I mean I
was ready to move to Alaska. It's like I'm staying here.
I'm not leaving.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I love easily influencers, am on the planet.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I definitely am, but again Alaska too. Though Alaska I
felt so free. I don't know how to explain it.
Like I felt like there was this wildness that just
came out and it like in my soul. And I
was just like, oh, I could see the appeal of
wanting to be here and wanting to live here. Yeah,
because even looking at the vastness of the landscape, you
(05:15):
could feel the wildness. I even went like top down
like a rabbit hole one night talking about like think
about like our ancestors that lived here, and Josh was
just like, please stop, just stop mind effing me right now.
I can not do this right now. But it was
pretty funny.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
But anyway, speaking of travel, travel costs money, Yes, and
that's what we're gonna talk about today.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yes, it's money. Of course, this is still part of
our financial series And if you didn't catch last week's episode,
please go do that. We had Clint Jasperson on a
wealth of knowledge in so many ways.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
So many ways, both on the psychology of money as
well as how to use money, how to grow money,
how to you know, be love to the episode of
Your Money, Yeah, there was.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
So much depth to that episode, so please go back
and listen to that one. But this one in particular
is about financial infidelity.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Financial infidelity which was actually something that was very prevalent
in my childhood and it is something that I see
happen in marriages all the time. Yeah, and long term relationships,
and so there can be a lot of different types
of financial infidelity. So we have sort of financial control
and sort of course of control using finances. I see
(06:31):
this a lot where obviously we probably have one partner
staying home does not work, the other partner is the
sole provider, and often, I'm not gonna lie, a lot
of times it's the man that's the sole provider, and
it's the stay at home mom, but not always. My
husband's a stay at home dad. So stay at home
dads exist. But the amount of control that sometimes can
(06:56):
happen or I should say be a part of the
relational dynamic, and it's really destructive in that situation has
kind of come to light for me, especially recently, and
even in a local moms group, I saw somebody posted
just about how they get such a meager little allowance
from their husband and then they're supposed to buy the
(07:16):
groceries with it. It's just why all the kids stuff
with it. They're supposed to everything. And she's like, by
the time I buy groceries, there's not even a dime left,
you know, for anything extra. And I guess it's been
a big point of contention in this person's marriage, and
she was really seeking some counsel about that. But I
think that in those situations, women can feel extremely trapped,
(07:40):
especially if the marriage starts to go downhill. It is
a million times harder to exit a marriage without having
your own income. And so I appreciate stay at home moms.
I think what they do is amazing. I think it's
an incredibly beautiful thing to be so involved with your children.
(08:00):
But it does take you having a partner that sees
the value in what you do and compensates you accordingly
to what you contribute to the home. And one of
the things my mom told me when I was little,
and it stuck with me, and thank god she did.
I thank god every single day almost. I think about
(08:20):
this moment so many times. She said, don't you dare
ever rely on a man for money? And she said,
I know, you know, She's like, if you want to
be a stay at home mom, that's fine, but get
a skill. Get a skill that will make you immediately employable,
because if you need out, you need to be able
to get out. And after having gone through a ten
year abuse of marriage, the one thing I had going
(08:42):
for me was that I was an equal earner to
my husband, and so you.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Get an education.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, and you know, I could stand on my own
two feet and I had a really solid job and
that was the only reason I could get out.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And I know for a while, you know, he would
threaten me because he does come from more money than
I do. His parents were much wealthier than my parents.
You know that. I still thought I was going to
get real roaded because I thought, well, if they pitch in,
you know, I might be in trouble. But thankfully they
kind of towed the line a little bit with him, like, no,
you hurt your marriage, like you're gonna have to pay
(09:17):
for the divorce, right. So I'm thankful for that. But
I was able to pay the retainer. I mean it
was a stretch. Yeah, I mean, I did drain my
retirement in my divorce, but our divorce got really ugly
and the custody battle, I should say, got really ugly,
and so it was extremely expensive. But I can't even
imagine being married to my ex and him being the
(09:40):
sole provider. I would have been.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Just company allowance and it would have been stretched. I mean,
I don't know if you I just met you when
you and your ex were going through the divorce the
first time.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
The first round, the first round, Oh gosh, it's so
embarrassing to say, like it is embarrassing. But at the
same time, like I hear about I called the death gas.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Now, people go back more than one time. I went
back like fourteen million times.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
But I was legally divorced and he was out of
my home like I was. But se here here's the thing.
I didn't believe I was free because and I remember
even telling I dated a guy who was I mean,
he was honestly a saving grace to me during that
time period. He helped me file the EPO, he helped
me stay safe, and I broke his heart and I
(10:33):
feel forever kind of a little bit bad about that
because I was just messed up. And hopefully I mean
obviously I haven't spoken to him in years and years
and years, but hopefully he knows that. You know, I
didn't mean to. But that's beside the point. You know,
I remember telling him, but I'm stuck because the post
(10:53):
divorce abuse was so bad. It was the stalking, it
was the you know, I mean I was stalked very seriously.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And in the financial control.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, and the financial control whenever, how am I going
to do this?
Speaker 1 (11:05):
How am I going to Whenever he.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Was mad at me, he would withhold the check of
what he owed me for the month, right, And that
was a big part of the course of control. And
luckily it was one of those things where even if
he didn't give me the check, I could kind of
survive on my own. I mean it was really really hard.
I mean we were bare bones. But you know that
(11:27):
was a point of an of control, right, like, oh,
you want this check. Nope, you won't talk to me,
you won't spend time with me, you won't, you know,
because he was trying to get me back, and I thought,
oh my gosh, could you imagine if this was in
my marriage. I wouldn't put up with it, not for
one not for one minute.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
And I know a lot of people experience that, And
I feel like, in terms of financial infidelity, like the
financial the financial control aspect is sort of an obvious one,
but there are others that I feel like aren't as obvious. Yep,
that happened a lot in.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Marriages, actual, like financial infidelity, like secrets spending, secret spending.
Secret spending was my dad's achilles heel because my dad
was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and I do think I'm
not sure if it was an accurate diagnosed. He was
very heavily medicated all of my life and childhood. I
think maybe part of his like mania was spending, and
(12:24):
so he would open credit cards without my mom knowing,
and he would like charge them up and then like
not pay the bills, and he would put them in
both my mom and his name, so he would just
ruin my mom's credit and he would buy you know,
he was a musician. He would buy guitars, he would
buy amps, he would buy all, yeah, all sorts of
(12:45):
you know, music equipment, and then he would hide it
from my mom. And then when my mom would obviously
be like, hey, this isn't cool, Like you spent one
thousand dollars on this and I didn't even know about it.
He would just get defensive. I mean, my dad never
took accountability for anything in his entire life, and so
he would just say, well, you get to spend money,
and my Mom's like, not much, you know, on groceries
(13:07):
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
But.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Money was I would say the biggest point of contention
in my parents' relationship, and a lot of it was
the financial infidelity from my father. And it's a betrayal.
It is a betrayal because you if you don't know
that one your credit's being dragged through the mud, and
two there's this debt that you haven't been able to
(13:33):
plan for or budget for. But at the same time,
my mom continued to rely on him to be in
charge of the finances, and I told her, I mean,
it wasn't until he died and he was half in dementia,
he was still trying to pay bills. And I think
it was just one of those things where my mom
just did not feel confident in it, like she really
(13:54):
struggles with administrative tasks, like she kind of gets frozen.
You know, because she has had always been sort of
the rock of our family and took care of absolutely
everything else. So I think the one contribution she wanted
my dad to sort of pick up was just pay
the bills right and handle the finances. But he was
terrible at it. He was terrible at it.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, my mom, you know, Oh, I don't know if
I can talk about it because it's so vulnerable. But
so after my parents divorce, finances of course were a
huge reason why they divorced. So my mom was a
(14:35):
stay at home mom all of our lives, and even
though she had an associate's degree and she did work
part time, like once I went to school, but her
goal in life was always just to be a stay
at home mom. So, you know, my parents were married
for twenty eight years when they divorced, and after they divorced,
(14:56):
or during the midst of the divorce, she pulled a
whole whammy Like yeah, and I'm sure this happens a lot,
and you might see this a lot in your practice.
It's almost like revenge spending. So their secret spending during
the marriage, and then there's revenge spending whether you know
they're getting a divorce or separation. But in this case,
(15:18):
there was revenge spending by my mom where she just
went straight balls to the wall, like ruined my dad financially.
Now the divorce itself ruined them financially.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Did they fight a lot in their divorce so it
was like a lot of legal that Also.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Their divorce lasted three years.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Which you know my dad. You know, they had assets,
they had, you know, like I said, they'd been married
for twenty eight years. My dad owned a couple pieces
of land, you know. But she wracked up thousands and
thousands and thousands of dollars in credit card debt. She
al said. This is what's hard for me to talk about.
(16:00):
So let me just give a little backstory to my mom.
All American girl, like cheerleader, beautiful, you know, raised by
a school teacher and a police officer. You know, two
point five kids, dog cat, like the perfect little life.
So and I mean her goal, she used to say
(16:22):
it all the time, like her degree, Like the only
degree she ever wanted when she went to college was
a missus degree. Like, yeah, she wanted to she wanted
to be a wife and a mother. So you're talking
about a woman who had never even had a speeding
ticket her entire life. Didn't drink, never did drugs. I mean,
we grew up with no alcohol in the home. My
(16:44):
dad was a Baptist preacher and so her part time
job was for the Baptist Association there in our hometown.
And Uh, I'm getting shaky talking about because I don't
ever talk about this.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I know you don't.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
I don't like this is one thing I never talk about.
So after the divorce, my mom and I moved to Florida,
which is where she was from, and us kids knew
nothing about this. But she was still working that part
time job prior to us moving, and she was embezzling
money from the business. And it's so hard and it's
(17:24):
hard for me to talk about because I know the
guilt and the shame that she felt over it, and
she died with that guilt and shame. I don't know now.
She paid every single penny back, and the irony is
is that, you know, she paid like fifteen years of
restitution to pay this money back, and then she died
like five years later, and so she had finally gotten
(17:46):
like the monkey off her back, of like in terms
of paying the money back, but the whole process was
so traumatic because we had just moved to Florida. I
had no idea what was going on. I was nineteen
years old, and I remember the night she said set
me down outside the house at my grandmother's which is
where we were living at the time, and she told me,
(18:07):
she said, I'm getting extradited, like they're coming to arrest me.
And I was just like, what is happening, you know,
like she and she was bawling, crying, and she you know,
for a nineteen year old for even if I'd been
thirty nine or whatever, like, it would have been so
hard to process, sure, but I was nineteen and she
(18:28):
was kind of unloading all this on me. And of
course this was after a just tumultuous, terrible divorce. But
I talk about this because I know that I don't
want to say women in particular. Let's just say people
in particular. It happens for multiple reasons, and you can
talk about maybe the psychology behind it when someone is
(18:52):
in such a deep emotional pain, you know, the dopamine
hits that you get from spending. And this is what
I think happened to my She was in such emotional
pain that spending was her only out.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
It's called a band aid. Right, So there's we could
go into a whole episode on emotional processing, but essentially
there's two main ways that people cope with negative emotions
that are not helpful. The first way is to band
aid your emotions, and so that is essentially seeking somebody
(19:28):
or something that can give you a quick hit of
dopamine and serotonin and it temporarily relieves anxiety emotional distress. Right.
Serotonin is a huge buffer against anxiety. Dopamine is a
mood elevator, and it's the brain's reward system, and so
(19:49):
it can be a way to band aid, right. And essentially,
when we don't know how to truly somatically process emotions
and integrate the story of the emotion into our psyche,
which is what I teach in my hybrid program. By
the way, then if we have more anxiety, we'll seek
band aids. Avoidant people they don't seek band aids. They
(20:10):
seek suppression and dissociation. So they seek distraction, so they
will you know, I was actually just talking to our
hairdresser today. We have the same hairdresser, We have the
same just about every beauty provider is like the same
we see people. And she was talking to me about
how her ex husband was kind of a gamer, you know,
and she just came to the realization at my appointment
(20:31):
today that he was a DA. And she said, how
do you know if somebody's a DA, And I said, well,
they always have a dissociative crutch, so something that they
are very very immersed in order to stay dissociated from
their body, which is where their emotions live. And so
for him it was gaming. But oftentimes the suppression strategy
is work, you know, hobbies, which can be very pricey.
(20:55):
Some people have very pricey hobbies, yes, And so emotional coping,
whether it's a band aid or suppression, it can be costly,
not just to your body and to your mind, it's
very costly to your body and your mind, to your knowledge,
your marriage, your relationship, your relationship.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Absolutely so, yes, So it sounds like she was reaching
for a band aid because she just, I mean, from
what I understand, she never could ever ever integrate the
trauma of the divorce, like losing your dad to divorce
was just something that she could never come to terms with.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
No, and she never did. I mean, when she died,
they had been divorced for seventeen years and she was
still struggling emotionally from it.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Did she say that she didn't want your dad at
her funeral or like to speak it? Don't you dare
let your dad speak at her funeral? Like she's said
specifically in her will, these.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Were her exact words and her will to my four children.
I leave all my belongings to my ex husband. I
leave jackshit nothing. I mean, listen, sorry, Rick, Rick.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Rick was at my house today. We're close with your dad.
Dad's gonna. He's a great guy.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Daddy's great and but Daddy, would you know, I mean,
there were lots of things that I think my dad
did that kind of pushed her to those limits. You know.
I don't want to sell my dad out because of
course it's a little bit different. He's still alive, but
I think that if he was here, he would openly
talk about it. I think there was some emotional infidelity
(22:30):
on his part, which, again going back to the topic,
I think so many things when you're talking about financial infidelity,
like there's so many more root causes of why it happens.
So in my mom and dad's case, for example, I
think there was some emotional infidelity going on outside of
(22:51):
the marriage with my dad through multiple variables, not just women,
but his work, through you know, his social life. And
my mom didn't really have those things, and so it
was like her only infidelity or her only answer or
her only band aid was to spend.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yeah, and spending is very It can become an addiction.
Have you ever read that book, like the Confessions of
a Shopaholic. I think it's what it's called that is insane. Yeah,
that is some insane stuff. I remember reading that book
years and years and years ago and thinking how in the.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
World hundreds of thousands of dollars in day hundreds.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Spending can become addicting because it hijacked. I mean, anything
that hijacks your dopamine reward system can be addicting. Right,
Scrolling is addicting, spending is addicting, Gambling is addicting. And
money is one of these things. Like we talked about
last time, that there is a very intimate relationship we
all have with money. And I'm not gonna lie. I've
(23:50):
used money as a band aid in my life before.
After my ex died, I went on this and I
didn't have the money I did not have the money.
I had actually zero dollars. I racked up some credit
card debt because I went shopping and I bought designer
purses and I bought all this thing because I was
just trying to like have anything to hold on to
to make me feel better, anything. And that's why I'm
(24:14):
glad that I learned to really process my emotions because
I don't need those band aids. I can gather safety
in myself and I don't need dissociation. I don't need.
I'm not gonna lie. It feels good to dissociate sometimes
because everybody does, you're human, but it can't be your
primary band Aiding or associating can't be your primary strategy
of coping because it has consequences.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
And I mean, I'll be the first to admit that
in my relationship with my ex, I was terrible. I
was terrible, and again I think I was seeking just
any line of dopamine that I could possibly get at
that time. But it calls so much much rift between
(25:01):
him and I, and that's on me, you know, that's
on me because regardless of how he behaves, you know,
my reaction to it has nothing to do with him
and I think that that's you know, maybe where people
go wrong, they want to I know my mother wanted
to blame my father for all the wrongdoing that she
had done, but regardless of what he had done, she
(25:23):
had to take accountability for that part. And I take
accountability because I would. I would go, of course, we
lived in Harlan. I would go like, drop ridiculous, like
five hundred bucks at Walmart on nothing, I'm junk. And
then I'd come home and he'd be like what is
this raina like what is this like? And that's a
legitimate ask, right, Like, that's a legitimate ass to be like,
(25:43):
what are you doing? Yep?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
And money right now in this world, we have seen
such an inflationary shift where income has not caught up
even close with the inflationary shift, and it is every
single day I see people on social media talking about
how much they're struggling financially. And when you have somebody
(26:08):
who's committing financial infidelity, it feels like a massive betrayal
because finances are tied to your ability to support yourself,
to buy food, to put a roof over your head, yourself,
take care of yourself. And when someone isn't truthful or
honest or you can't be on the same page as
your partner financially for whatever reason. It's a recipe for disaster.
(26:32):
And they say, quote money is the number one cause
a divorce. It's not. It's lack of accountability. But that
can absolutely come with money, right. Lack of accountability around money.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Is a.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Huge predictor of divorce And a lot of people come
in to marriages committing financial infidelity because they don't they
aren't honest with their partner about how much credit card
debt they have, or how much student loan debt they have,
or how much whatever debt they have. I've seen couples
a lot that are in their second third month month
(27:04):
of marriage and this had been this is exposed, right,
So you marry someone and then all of a sudden
you find out they have one hundred thousand dollars in
debt and it was completely hidden, right, But you can't
hide it once you're married. And I mean unless you
keep like separate accounts. But usually when you're married, you
sort of upgrade where you live, you know, you buy
another car or whatever to accommodate your you know, joint
(27:28):
union together. And then that's where it starts to show.
And one of the ways that I actually caught my
ex and his drug habit at the very very beginning,
I want to talk about mind f okay. I found
out my husband was doing had a drug problem two
months into our marriage. You know, I had no idea.
(27:50):
I had no idea. We were a long distance, my bad,
and then when we moved in together, it was freaking obvious.
I'm like, where's the money, right, where's the freaking money,
you know, And then you know, and I was looking
in his eyes and I'm like, what are you taking here?
What are you doing? Because he was one of those
addicts where he could he didn't have to do it
(28:12):
every day, you know, how like it and you never
hardly see a drug addict like this, but you see
alcoholics that are, like, they don't drink every day, but
when they do drink, they go way overboard, right, They're
more of like a binge drinker. He was more of
like a binge drug user, Like he could go days
without doing it, but then when he did it, he'd
binge and it was super obvious. And so the way
(28:33):
that he got around duping me was that I was
at the University of Kentucky. He was at Western Kentucky University.
We only saw each other on the weekends, and he
just wouldn't do it when he's with me. So how
the frig was I supposed to know? Because he was
extremely well functioning, high functioning, and.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
So when he was drinking, he was high funded.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Always. He was the most high functioning addict until he died,
which was the crazy thing, or I should say till
shortly before his death, because he all, he's had a
great job, always quick on his feet, he was very
high iq, you know, and oftentimes that makes it worse
because you can't hit rock bottom right And the same
thing with people who have money issues that a lot
(29:16):
of times these folks they've had a history of being
bailed out, right, Like in a lot of client cases
I've had, mom and dad have stepped in and bailed
their child out over and over and over and over again.
Then they get married and the parents go, Okay, finally
there's somebody else's problem, right, right, finally, like you take her?
Do you take him? You know, it's funny. Your dad
(29:38):
even said that today. Your dad's like, well, if nobody
spoils rain and rain, I spoils right now. And I
was like, yeah, well you know, I can't. I was like,
I'm no better cliche popsch I got I got it
from you. She didn't learn this life of luxury from
no one. Yeah. But then this is revealed right like
(29:59):
two to three month into the relationship that someone has
a spending addiction. Yeah, and they have one hundred thousand
dollars of credit cards.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I can't imagine. And I that was a tough one
for me because there were there were lots of things
that I had to I don't want to. I don't
want to use the word confess, right because reveal reveal
that's a better word. That I had to reveal to Josh.
And one of those things was my financial past because
I didn't have a good one. And I'm I mean,
(30:27):
I said it on the episode with Clant. I feel
like every aspect of my life I've got a pretty
good grasp on.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, you're very successful, very high functioning. IM your great mom,
but you're really good at your job.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
But money is still just not with like not it's
within my reach. It's just my relationship with it that
I cannot seem to put my finger on, you know.
And can't really seem to get to the deep root cause.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
I mean, I just think it's addiction.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah I don't. I think that's a piece of it.
I think that's a piece but.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
There because I'm just as bad. But here's a thing.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I'm not going into debt.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
No, we're not going into debt. We're spending within our means. Yeah,
maybe we could save more, Maybe we could put that
towards more assets, which is what I'm trying to do.
And I think what is really really crappy about money?
Is it such a taboo topic. Yeah, it's such a
taboo topic. And so there's a lot of shame associated
with money in these situations, and what do we do
(31:33):
with shame? While we can either fight and defend against
it or we can run away from it. And that's
what happens, right, So we get the defensive responding, you know,
and we get the secrecy and we get the avoidance
around it. And it's it's tough for these people because
even though the betrayal wasn't with another person, it's still
(31:53):
a huge secret that rocks the foundation of in the
stability of the relationship.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
And still maybe not to the degree of maybe infidelity
with another person. But it can still feel like deep,
deep rejection. It can still feel like deep abandonment.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, because I didn't know you well enough, right, you
kept this from me. You decided to start a life
with me, and you weren't transparent about what you were
bringing to the table here. And I mean, I'm so
glad that you know what. The crazy thing is. The
one thing my husband and I never thought about was money.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I never thought about money because I denied myself so much.
And I think that's where my spending now comes from.
Is because when I was married, I denied myself everything.
Because my husband controlled the finances, I basically had equal
access to the money. But I knew he was watching,
and I didn't want to start a fight I was
(32:53):
trying to avoid. I mean, we thought about him having
sex with other people, but we didn't fight about money,
I know, And so it was just like I didn't
want that. I couldn't handle one more thing. So I
just went without and I would you know, if I
did spend money, it was on my kids.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
I have not deprived myself of anything.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
I did for.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I don't think ever in my life I did for really,
even when I was like again, I'll use the little
thing I like to always say, Like even when I
was living off Frameman noodles in a prayer, like I
still would go to my local Goodwill and I would
shop and you know, like I had to get that
shopping fix. Or I'd go to the J. C. Penny
in Middlesbrough and I'd go shopping there and I'd find
(33:38):
a way. I would find a way to shop.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, you know, it could be a band aid, it
could be addiction. Sometimes those two things start fashion. I
just love fashion. Okay, now my arn't form and here's
where it gets crazy. And so one of the we
should we should talk about Rent Runway. We should see
(34:00):
if they can collab with us for the podcast. I
am such a fan of Rent the Runway. This is
from address. This is from I can't even say it.
Rent the Runway because it gives me my shopping fix
with a set budget, and I get to rotate. So
I send it back and then I get to shop
for five or six new outfits and then I get
(34:21):
my little dopamine hit. But it's always the same price
every month. To me, that is the most genius concept
that has ever because I found that I was buying
things wearing them once and then I didn't really want
to wear them.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I'd not believe. The stuff that's in my closet right
now with tags on it, you wouldn't believe. And it's
because I bought it, haven't had time to wear it,
and then my style changes. Yet my style changes so
much or like I'll just go through like little phases
of like where I want to be, you know, a
little more fancy, or I want to.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Be a little bit more like And that's why I
like the rent the Runway because I get to pick
and choose like they have everything.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
We are not an endoorser, No we are.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
We aren't. But hey, if anybody associated that business is listening,
please reach out for it. Do us for a collab
because I am a big fan.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I did try it once and I just probably didn't
give it enough of a chance. I just didn't like
the things I ordered, But I would be willing to
try it again.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, it's a learning curve. It's a learning curve with
it because like when I when I order stuff like
I really dig through the reviews and look at the
pictures that people have posted with it on and there's
some things that I have been like, oh, that's so cute.
I definitely want that. And then I went to the
pictures and I was like, that doesn't look good on anybody.
Like that doesn't look anything like I thought it would.
(35:34):
So then I, you know, take it out of my car.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
This stress is hot by you.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
I know. I was leaving.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
My husband was like, you want And then when she
walked in today, I was like, your husband needs to
take you on a date today.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Yeah, you're in that funny Yeah, but back to back
to our topic. Sorry, we had a little well and
I mean this is.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Actually speaking of endorsements. This isn't an endorsement, but I
just we will not endorse anything that we don't believe in.
Speaking of things that we believe in. Both of us
highly believe in the bedget.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Oh my gosh, guys, once you have a bedget, we'll
never go back. I had to buy I had to
buy them for the camper, and now I hate staying
in hotels and I'm almost about to just pack them
in the suitcase.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
You know how much I could not wait to get
home to my bed, Like I missed my animals, obviously,
but I didn't.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
You miss your bedget didn't you?
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I missed everything about my bed the bedget, yes, my
temper pedic mattress, yes, my cozy earth sheets, all of
the above, all of the things combined. I's kiss it.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Is it is. I can't sleep without it now. I'm
so spoiled because I go to bed cold and then
I warm up throughout the night. So the thing about
the bedjet is it is basically an HVAC system for
your bed, okay, and it blows through this cloud sheet. Okay,
So it's not blowing directly on you like I fans
(37:00):
because I don't like feeling air blow on me. I
don't like that. And so the cloud sheet where it
blows through the cloud, it's just this enveloping temperature. It
isn't You're not having it blow directly on you. And
it really does puff up like a cloud, like you're
sleeping in a cloud, which is pretty amazing. And you
have the ability to have a dual system, so your
(37:22):
partner can have, you know, his or her own unit
and you have your own remote. You also have a
phone app. It was built by somebody affiliated with NASA,
NASA engineer. It is quiet, It makes just like a
very very quiet, makes just a very gentle hum which
actually can law you to sleep. It is worth the price,
(37:43):
one hundred percent. You're going to yes, speaking of the episode,
tell your partner you're buying a bedget. But the price point,
honestly is it relevant for what it delivers.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
It's absolutely worth it. And you can set bio rhythms.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
A bio rhythms that's the big that's me, that'd be
everything for me.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
And it takes I will say, it takes a while
to kind of gauge what your body does throughout the night.
But you can change the biorhythms and it gives you
an opportunity to set three different bioorhythms where you can.
I always love to get my bed. The best way
I know how to compare it is like that fresh
out of the dryer sheet feeling yep.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
I start hot, I get it warm, and then it
cools me down. And actually, the science behind sleep and
better sleep is that your body temperature has to lower
itself as you sleep. So if you have a helper
with that right, like the Badget, it can cool you
down as you sleep, which mimics your natural response and
(38:40):
helps you fall asleep. Better. So my sleep has improved
one thousand percent with the Bedget, especially as a permenopausal
women around my cycle, I would always sweat the bed.
They have a dry function. It kicks into my dry
function at a certain point in the night where you know,
I know, I'm around the time where I could be
sweat in the bed. I'm dry as a bone, dry
(39:02):
as a bone. And I just can't brag on this
product enough. Guys. I know we had Okay, we have
copy points we're supposed to follow. We're not following. I'm sorry, Bedget.
We're just actually going with our true feelings about the product.
And that is one of the things when Rain and
I started this podcast, we said we are only going
to take endorsements that we actually use and we actually like.
(39:22):
If we think the product sucks, we're not going to
sell out and endorse it. So you can trust our
reviews that we have tried them, we believe in the product,
and we will continue using the product. So you can
go to bedget dot com, slash love doc okay as
the link and you can receive.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Fifty dollars off. But it's the dual system or the
budget plus the cloud sheet. Yes, so those are the
only combinations that the fifty dollars off is good.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
For, which is which is a generous discount. So please
go check out the Bedget. We are so thrilled to
have them as an affiliate.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
You will not regret this person, You can't.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
You cannot regret it. It will be and for our
mail listeners, it will be the best present you ever
get your own.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
My gosh, I've said that Josh has gotten me a
lot of things that I don't use, like my room
ba and my foot massager, but my bedjet is the
by far, the best thing that he did.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
It was so funny when I was showing Donald, He's like,
do we really need a Bedget? Like are we that spoiled?
And I was like, I'm sorry, I'm sweating the bed. Yeah,
I need something. This menopause is kicking my butt. And
now he's like, I can't believe I ever said that
we didn't need this. This is amazing, and we just
like want to come on from vacation because we want
our bedget same.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
I could not wait. I could not wait because I
didn't sleep great on the cruise. I will say it
was the beds. In fact, in my review for the
Royal Caribbean. Listen to the cruise. A cruise isn't the
first way that I would choose to travel, but it
was a great way to do it and see lots
of places in Alaska and just really be out on
the ocean and see the vastness and the landscape. But
(40:58):
their beds need an upgrade, like bad, because sleep is
so important when you're on vacation because you're doing so much. Yeah,
you have to, and then the time zone change and
all that. It's just like sleep. I was so sleep
deprived on this trip. So sleep. It's like I took
a series of naps the whole time I was on
the Oh that's yeah, Brilly. It was brutal. So and
(41:18):
now I'm jet lagged and still for like living in
the four hour time difference. Like I didn't go to
bed till after three am last night, but I will
say once I did go to sleep, I slept like
a rock because of my veget.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
So if you're going to get the bedget, just be
honest with your partner about the purchase, make them excited
about it. Obviously, live within your means and your budget,
but you can get that fifty dollars off. Yes, bedget
dot com slash love doc.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
So back to the point at hand again, talking about
financial infidelity. We've talked about secret spending. We've talked about
revenge spending.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
We've talked about coming in with debt that you do
not reveal.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Right, and then control course of control through finances. Is
there anything else?
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, So let's talk a little bit about solutions.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Obviously, honesty is the best policy before you get married, Yes,
before you get married, because I have seen couples divorce
at a couple months in because of this reason, and
so it does happen. So just know that if you're
going in, you're gonna I know it seems risky now
to tell them it's riskier when you're already married. Divorce
is also costly, so then you're going to rack up
(42:30):
more debt from the divorce, right, if someone leaves you
for your dishonesty. And there's help and there's resources out
there for people who are spending addicts. I mean, they
have sort of AA type programs with the same structure
for spending addiction and they help you budget. There's some
you know, really great resources out there in terms of
(42:53):
financial planners. There's lots of programs you can buy clin
let's talk up Clint for the last episode years. Listen
to that episode and reach out to current.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Financial counselor because he has so much emotional depth and
like what those root causes.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Are, right, And so we just think it's like, well,
just stop. But it's not that easy. If you're addicted
to something or it's an emotional band aid, that which
is essentially a crutch for emotional processing, you don't know
how to give it up. You don't know how to
give it up, because then the end result than is pain.
I think the better solution is to learn if you
are you know that you are using money as a
(43:32):
band aid. Take my hybrid group. Learn to process your
emotions to completion. Learn the somatic strategies, learn the cognitive strategies,
because that is a real key to being able to
not use money as an emotional band aid.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
And I know this is all I have to offer,
but I think a simple solution is, you know, when
you have the opportunity, just just spend more time in
nature and get more in touch with you know, really
those surroundings.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
The free things in life. Yeah, the free gifts of life.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yes, get in touch with more of the free things
in life, which is again I'm a work in process.
I'm still working on all those things. But I have
found that when I get into nature, like when I
again when I was on this cruise to Alaska, I
could kind of see myself living there and giving up
all of the material things in my life, and to me,
(44:29):
that felt very free like that. There's a freedom to that. Yeah,
And and but I don't know if I'm quite ready
for it.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
And and one thing that I learned that I think
I will never ever ever doubt in my entire life
is that ten percent goes to God. No matter what,
that's biblical. Ten percent goes to God. And when you
actually give that ten percent, God absolutely rewards you for that.
It comes back to you. And the more I been
(45:00):
challenged to give in my life, and the more I
have felt called to give, because I try to be
very very generous. I don't care about being that rich.
I want to be comfortable, which I am. But and
so beyond comfort, I'm like, Okay, I can give it away, right,
So I try to give it away to charity or
try to get I give, you know more, than ten
percent to the church every every month, and I should
(45:23):
say every week. And it's God has come. It has
come back to me too full.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
It always does.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
So don't doubt God. Don't doubt that you are tithing.
Just don't see it as like one more expense. See
it is. This is going to be God rewarding me
and placing opportunities in my life for it to come
back to me. Just bet on God. And that was
actually a sermon that we had a year or two ago.
(45:51):
Our pastor just challenged us like, of course, you know
the church needs money, but you know up your giving.
Give the full ten percent of your income and see
what happens.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
And even if you can't give, like just seek God
when there's temptation.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Right, or give what you can. If you only have
a dollar, give a dollar, you know, give a dollar
to the homeless person on the side of the road. Give
a dollar in the offering plate. Even if it's just
a dollar, it's a dollar that may buy somebody a
bottle of water, or your time.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
To your time. I mean that that service is completely free.
And I mean back to going back to you know,
just seeking out the things in life that gives in
life that are free, right, and that and that is
those things are priceless, baby, priceless.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
And that is atonement for if you've had you know, greed,
or you've had some problems with overspending, not.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
To mention, it's something that can bring you and your
partner closer together if you do it together.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yes, absolutely, yeah, I agree, so seek solutions. Obviously, I'm
not a financial advisor, I'm not a financial counselor, but
I can teach you how to process your emotions so
that you don't use money as a band aid to
your emotions. I think that it's probably more of a
problem for people than we talk.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
About, oh for sure, for sure, So.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
I think that's a great place to wrap up.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So, of course, if you are thinking financial stability or
just really secure attachment, which I think leads to any
type of stability that you're searching for, please go check
out doctor Hinsley at the loovedoc dot com. For all
of our listeners. We offer a special promo code love
dot twenty seven that will give you twenty seven percent
off any of her hybrid groups, any of Coach Elizabeth's
(47:31):
hybrid groups, and any of doctor Hinsley's courses to which
you have access to for Life, so you can go
back and revisit it anytime you want. Even with the
hybrid group, you have access to the course for Life,
and you have access to the video recordings for life.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Yes, so the recorded calls that we do, we do
four of them with the group. You can be anonymous
in the group if you want to be. You can
be a blank screen and you can ask questions via
private chat and I will just answer them and not
reveal any personal details if you tell me not to.
And yeah, you can learn the strategies to really become
(48:08):
secure and to have your nervous system only be reliant
upon you instead of another person or money or whatever else.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Yeah, and it'll give you the opportunity to be more honest.
I always say I couldn't have gone into my marriage
or been as honest as I was with Josh, given
the things that I'd been through if I wasn't securely attached,
And because it allowed me to really to be honest
with myself first so that I could be honest with him.
(48:39):
So reaching secure attachment. I'll say it all the time.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
It's the answer to everything, literally, the answer to pretty
much everything. Because it's just it's nervous system resilience, right,
and so you don't rely on Everybody in this world
is running from emotional pain, and we have to learn
to stop doing that. We have to learn to face
our pain.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
That's all I mean, that's all financial infidelity is is
running from emotional pain.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
I saw a TikTok, and I cannot tell you who
made the TikTok, So I apologize to the person who
said this, because I'm not stealing your content. They were
talking about addiction recovery, and they were saying that the
people that actually recover from addiction are not the people
that are like, Okay, well, I guess I need to
quit drinking because I'm going to lose my wife, or
I guess I need to quit spending because I'm going
(49:24):
to lose my husband. Those people never stop. The people
that actually stop are the people that are like, screw it.
No matter what road I take, I'm facing pain. So
I might as well just do the hard work and
face the pain of overcoming this and face the pain
that abstinence from the springs, because all the roads lead
to pain, right, So whatever, I'm ready to face it.
(49:46):
But the people that are like doing it so they
don't lose their marriage. They're actually just coming from a
place of trying to avoid the greater pain, right and sore,
but they're not ready to face pain, and so they
move through it, and abstinence causes pain, and I have
to cope with pain. So they go right back, all right,
right to the addiction.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yeah, And so I thought that was, you know, really
really interesting.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
Yeah, it is very interesting. And I know that you
teach a lot of that in your group. I do.
Now with that said, we do want to thank our
other affiliate Armor.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Right here in our cups, I have the blood orange
in there today.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
M m. You know, so I've never actually done the
blood orange. I've always been like orange just really orange
just isn't really like my favorite flavor. But I did
just order the pineapple, so I'll report back about the pineapple.
But Armor colostrum is an all around supplement, all around
supplement that again I use. I'm using heavily right now.
(50:43):
I'm doing about three scoops a day, just trying to
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Speaker 2 (50:50):
Because it is a fantastic supplement for the gut. And
do you know that you have more neurotransmitters or I
should say almost as many neurotransmitters in your gut than
you do in your brain. Leave it. They call it
so a second it's the second brain. And so a
lot of mental health, you know, it starts in the gut,
but also vice versa, like your mental health influences your gut,
and so if you need strong support for your gut,
(51:12):
specifically your gut lining, Armora Closstrum is an amazing supplement
and it has really helped my skin. I think it
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Speaker 1 (51:27):
Absolutely, so thank you Armor. You can use code lovedoc
at checkout and receive fifteen percent off if you are
a first time buyer, or if you sign up for
the subscription, which I highly highly recommend.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
If it mind just comes in the mail, yeah and
you got to think about it, you get an even
bigger discount if you sign up for the subscription.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Yep, So thank you Armor. Thank you to each and
every one of you that tunes in every week, and
if you've made it this far to the end. We
love you guys so much.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Please sign up at our Patreons Yes we want you
to get the special benefits of being a patrin
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Yeah, and get to see the full visual episodes, especially
Doctor Hinsley's dress today because it is sa far it
is super cute, super summary, So please go go find
us at patreons dot com, Slash the Love Dog podcast
and until next time, peace, love, and perspective.
Welcome to the Love Dog Podcast. I'm your co host
Rena Butcher here with our host, doctor Sarah Hinsley, the owner, founder,
and CEO of the Love Doc relationship coaching services and
of course, the Love Dog Podcast. You can find her
at the lovedoc dot com and of course all of
her social media handles at doctor Hinsley. Yeah, Hey, Hey,
(00:32):
what's up?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Not much, man, I feel like you've been gone forever.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I feel like I was gone forever too, and it
feels good to be back. I mean honestly, so, I
just got back from Alaska, and anyone who's ever been
or never been. For those that have been, I totally
get it. For those that live there, like I get
it now because I always thought, like, what is the
appeal of Alaska? Because it's dark like eight months out
(00:58):
of the.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Year that I don't know if I could handle.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, it rains all the time. It rains like I think,
like three hundred and fourteen days out of the year.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh dang.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
But like since I've been there, and of course we
took a cruise, so we got to do Sitka, catch
a can Juno and then we ended in British Columbia.
Of course, which isn't Alaska, but it was just the vastness.
And really the wildness of Alaska is what's so appealing.
(01:28):
Because you're just constantly surrounded by nature. You feel free.
The air. I mean, I kept I kept joking with
Josh because I was like this air.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I love this air.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I was like, I want to marry this air. He
was like, golly, come down. I was like, my lung
but my lungs felt so open.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, it's just cleaner, less pollution.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Oh gosh. And again, you know, I mean to put
it in perspective. We live in Lexington, Kentucky. Population in
Lexington's like a little over three hundred and thirty thousand people. Yep.
Alaska is bigger than Montana, Texas, and California combined. Total
population for the entire state is a little over seven
hundred thousand.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah. I would like that. I know, I get so
frustrated in like high populated areas, Like you know, we
were in New York two weeks ago, I guess it
was two weeks ago, and just it was so hot
and there were so many people, so the like the
body heat I think just made it hotter. And then
the cars. I was so hot in New York.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I was like a heaviness.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
It was very heavy. Yeah, And I was just like,
I don't know if I made to be My daughter
wants to be in a big city. That's like her
dream to grow up and be a big city girl,
New York preferably, or maybe even Chicago, where my brother lives.
And I'm just like, you know, it was a wonderful visit.
There's so much really cool stuff in New York. I
mean really cool stuff. Lots of culture, lots of history.
(02:53):
Obviously we did you know, yeah, diversity, but I just
I get kind of clusterphobic a little bit, you know,
with lots of people around me. Yeah, I get. And
like we took the subway everywhere, and so it was
just constantly like this, yeah, just kind of hyper looking over.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
My shoulder, even in Seattle, because we poured it in
and out of Seattle, and I mean Josh and I
were talking about it, like, I just when we were
walking around downtown Seattle and we went to Pike Place,
and I mean there's people everywhere. It's like Chinatown and
New York.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, and I went to Chinatown and it's overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
It's so overwhelming because one, there's so many things to buy,
and two there's I mean, you can't escape the people.
I mean your shoulder to shoulder, and it's just so overwhelming.
And I felt like, like even when we were sitting
down by the bay, we were sitting on these like
concrete steps, and I was like, I'm going to move
down one, I said, because I feel so exposed and
(03:51):
there's so many people, and you, like my brain not
it's not thinking the worst. I just want to be
mentally prepared that if something was to go down, like
I could protect myself under like underneath that concrete step,
you know, like co take guard or whatever. But there's
no way I could ever live in a big city. Yeah,
(04:11):
I'm a country girl at heart.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I know, I'm sort of like torn like I like
having access to things things, Yeah, but I also love
being out in the country. And so that's why I
think Lexington's just such a great compromise because it's a
very small, big city, so you you still have a
lot of stuff, but it's not overwhelming, right, you know,
you can kind of get anywhere in Lexington in twenty
(04:35):
five minutes. It's like the twenty five minute time mark
is just where you can go, but I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
I'm ready to leave even Lexington. Yeah, I mean I
was ready to move to Alaska. It's like I'm staying here.
I'm not leaving.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I love easily influencers, am on the planet.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I definitely am, but again Alaska too. Though Alaska I
felt so free. I don't know how to explain it.
Like I felt like there was this wildness that just
came out and it like in my soul. And I
was just like, oh, I could see the appeal of
wanting to be here and wanting to live here. Yeah,
because even looking at the vastness of the landscape, you
(05:15):
could feel the wildness. I even went like top down
like a rabbit hole one night talking about like think
about like our ancestors that lived here, and Josh was
just like, please stop, just stop mind effing me right now.
I can not do this right now. But it was
pretty funny.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
But anyway, speaking of travel, travel costs money, Yes, and
that's what we're gonna talk about today.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yes, it's money. Of course, this is still part of
our financial series And if you didn't catch last week's episode,
please go do that. We had Clint Jasperson on a
wealth of knowledge in so many ways.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
So many ways, both on the psychology of money as
well as how to use money, how to grow money,
how to you know, be love to the episode of
Your Money, Yeah, there was.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
So much depth to that episode, so please go back
and listen to that one. But this one in particular
is about financial infidelity.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Financial infidelity which was actually something that was very prevalent
in my childhood and it is something that I see
happen in marriages all the time. Yeah, and long term relationships,
and so there can be a lot of different types
of financial infidelity. So we have sort of financial control
and sort of course of control using finances. I see
(06:31):
this a lot where obviously we probably have one partner
staying home does not work, the other partner is the
sole provider, and often, I'm not gonna lie, a lot
of times it's the man that's the sole provider, and
it's the stay at home mom, but not always. My
husband's a stay at home dad. So stay at home
dads exist. But the amount of control that sometimes can
(06:56):
happen or I should say be a part of the
relational dynamic, and it's really destructive in that situation has
kind of come to light for me, especially recently, and
even in a local moms group, I saw somebody posted
just about how they get such a meager little allowance
from their husband and then they're supposed to buy the
(07:16):
groceries with it. It's just why all the kids stuff
with it. They're supposed to everything. And she's like, by
the time I buy groceries, there's not even a dime left,
you know, for anything extra. And I guess it's been
a big point of contention in this person's marriage, and
she was really seeking some counsel about that. But I
think that in those situations, women can feel extremely trapped,
(07:40):
especially if the marriage starts to go downhill. It is
a million times harder to exit a marriage without having
your own income. And so I appreciate stay at home moms.
I think what they do is amazing. I think it's
an incredibly beautiful thing to be so involved with your children.
(08:00):
But it does take you having a partner that sees
the value in what you do and compensates you accordingly
to what you contribute to the home. And one of
the things my mom told me when I was little,
and it stuck with me, and thank god she did.
I thank god every single day almost. I think about
(08:20):
this moment so many times. She said, don't you dare
ever rely on a man for money? And she said,
I know, you know, She's like, if you want to
be a stay at home mom, that's fine, but get
a skill. Get a skill that will make you immediately employable,
because if you need out, you need to be able
to get out. And after having gone through a ten
year abuse of marriage, the one thing I had going
(08:42):
for me was that I was an equal earner to
my husband, and so you.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Get an education.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, and you know, I could stand on my own
two feet and I had a really solid job and
that was the only reason I could get out.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And I know for a while, you know, he would
threaten me because he does come from more money than
I do. His parents were much wealthier than my parents.
You know that. I still thought I was going to
get real roaded because I thought, well, if they pitch in,
you know, I might be in trouble. But thankfully they
kind of towed the line a little bit with him, like, no,
you hurt your marriage, like you're gonna have to pay
(09:17):
for the divorce, right. So I'm thankful for that. But
I was able to pay the retainer. I mean it
was a stretch. Yeah, I mean, I did drain my
retirement in my divorce, but our divorce got really ugly
and the custody battle, I should say, got really ugly,
and so it was extremely expensive. But I can't even
imagine being married to my ex and him being the
(09:40):
sole provider. I would have been.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Just company allowance and it would have been stretched. I mean,
I don't know if you I just met you when
you and your ex were going through the divorce the
first time.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
The first round, the first round, Oh gosh, it's so
embarrassing to say, like it is embarrassing. But at the
same time, like I hear about I called the death gas.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Now, people go back more than one time. I went
back like fourteen million times.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
But I was legally divorced and he was out of
my home like I was. But se here here's the thing.
I didn't believe I was free because and I remember
even telling I dated a guy who was I mean,
he was honestly a saving grace to me during that
time period. He helped me file the EPO, he helped
me stay safe, and I broke his heart and I
(10:33):
feel forever kind of a little bit bad about that
because I was just messed up. And hopefully I mean
obviously I haven't spoken to him in years and years
and years, but hopefully he knows that. You know, I
didn't mean to. But that's beside the point. You know,
I remember telling him, but I'm stuck because the post
(10:53):
divorce abuse was so bad. It was the stalking, it
was the you know, I mean I was stalked very seriously.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And in the financial control.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, and the financial control whenever, how am I going
to do this?
Speaker 1 (11:05):
How am I going to Whenever he.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Was mad at me, he would withhold the check of
what he owed me for the month, right, And that
was a big part of the course of control. And
luckily it was one of those things where even if
he didn't give me the check, I could kind of
survive on my own. I mean it was really really hard.
I mean we were bare bones. But you know that
(11:27):
was a point of an of control, right, like, oh,
you want this check. Nope, you won't talk to me,
you won't spend time with me, you won't, you know,
because he was trying to get me back, and I thought,
oh my gosh, could you imagine if this was in
my marriage. I wouldn't put up with it, not for
one not for one minute.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
And I know a lot of people experience that, And
I feel like, in terms of financial infidelity, like the
financial the financial control aspect is sort of an obvious one,
but there are others that I feel like aren't as obvious. Yep,
that happened a lot in.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Marriages, actual, like financial infidelity, like secrets spending, secret spending.
Secret spending was my dad's achilles heel because my dad
was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and I do think I'm
not sure if it was an accurate diagnosed. He was
very heavily medicated all of my life and childhood. I
think maybe part of his like mania was spending, and
(12:24):
so he would open credit cards without my mom knowing,
and he would like charge them up and then like
not pay the bills, and he would put them in
both my mom and his name, so he would just
ruin my mom's credit and he would buy you know,
he was a musician. He would buy guitars, he would
buy amps, he would buy all, yeah, all sorts of
(12:45):
you know, music equipment, and then he would hide it
from my mom. And then when my mom would obviously
be like, hey, this isn't cool, Like you spent one
thousand dollars on this and I didn't even know about it.
He would just get defensive. I mean, my dad never
took accountability for anything in his entire life, and so
he would just say, well, you get to spend money,
and my Mom's like, not much, you know, on groceries
(13:07):
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
But.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Money was I would say the biggest point of contention
in my parents' relationship, and a lot of it was
the financial infidelity from my father. And it's a betrayal.
It is a betrayal because you if you don't know
that one your credit's being dragged through the mud, and
two there's this debt that you haven't been able to
(13:33):
plan for or budget for. But at the same time,
my mom continued to rely on him to be in
charge of the finances, and I told her, I mean,
it wasn't until he died and he was half in dementia,
he was still trying to pay bills. And I think
it was just one of those things where my mom
just did not feel confident in it, like she really
(13:54):
struggles with administrative tasks, like she kind of gets frozen.
You know, because she has had always been sort of
the rock of our family and took care of absolutely
everything else. So I think the one contribution she wanted
my dad to sort of pick up was just pay
the bills right and handle the finances. But he was
terrible at it. He was terrible at it.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, my mom, you know, Oh, I don't know if
I can talk about it because it's so vulnerable. But
so after my parents divorce, finances of course were a
huge reason why they divorced. So my mom was a
(14:35):
stay at home mom all of our lives, and even
though she had an associate's degree and she did work
part time, like once I went to school, but her
goal in life was always just to be a stay
at home mom. So, you know, my parents were married
for twenty eight years when they divorced, and after they divorced,
(14:56):
or during the midst of the divorce, she pulled a
whole whammy Like yeah, and I'm sure this happens a lot,
and you might see this a lot in your practice.
It's almost like revenge spending. So their secret spending during
the marriage, and then there's revenge spending whether you know
they're getting a divorce or separation. But in this case,
(15:18):
there was revenge spending by my mom where she just
went straight balls to the wall, like ruined my dad financially.
Now the divorce itself ruined them financially.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Did they fight a lot in their divorce so it
was like a lot of legal that Also.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Their divorce lasted three years.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Which you know my dad. You know, they had assets,
they had, you know, like I said, they'd been married
for twenty eight years. My dad owned a couple pieces
of land, you know. But she wracked up thousands and
thousands and thousands of dollars in credit card debt. She
al said. This is what's hard for me to talk about.
(16:00):
So let me just give a little backstory to my mom.
All American girl, like cheerleader, beautiful, you know, raised by
a school teacher and a police officer. You know, two
point five kids, dog cat, like the perfect little life.
So and I mean her goal, she used to say
(16:22):
it all the time, like her degree, Like the only
degree she ever wanted when she went to college was
a missus degree. Like, yeah, she wanted to she wanted
to be a wife and a mother. So you're talking
about a woman who had never even had a speeding
ticket her entire life. Didn't drink, never did drugs. I mean,
we grew up with no alcohol in the home. My
(16:44):
dad was a Baptist preacher and so her part time
job was for the Baptist Association there in our hometown.
And Uh, I'm getting shaky talking about because I don't
ever talk about this.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I know you don't.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
I don't like this is one thing I never talk about.
So after the divorce, my mom and I moved to Florida,
which is where she was from, and us kids knew
nothing about this. But she was still working that part
time job prior to us moving, and she was embezzling
money from the business. And it's so hard and it's
(17:24):
hard for me to talk about because I know the
guilt and the shame that she felt over it, and
she died with that guilt and shame. I don't know now.
She paid every single penny back, and the irony is
is that, you know, she paid like fifteen years of
restitution to pay this money back, and then she died
like five years later, and so she had finally gotten
(17:46):
like the monkey off her back, of like in terms
of paying the money back, but the whole process was
so traumatic because we had just moved to Florida. I
had no idea what was going on. I was nineteen
years old, and I remember the night she said set
me down outside the house at my grandmother's which is
where we were living at the time, and she told me,
(18:07):
she said, I'm getting extradited, like they're coming to arrest me.
And I was just like, what is happening, you know,
like she and she was bawling, crying, and she you know,
for a nineteen year old for even if I'd been
thirty nine or whatever, like, it would have been so
hard to process, sure, but I was nineteen and she
(18:28):
was kind of unloading all this on me. And of
course this was after a just tumultuous, terrible divorce. But
I talk about this because I know that I don't
want to say women in particular. Let's just say people
in particular. It happens for multiple reasons, and you can
talk about maybe the psychology behind it when someone is
(18:52):
in such a deep emotional pain, you know, the dopamine
hits that you get from spending. And this is what
I think happened to my She was in such emotional
pain that spending was her only out.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
It's called a band aid. Right, So there's we could
go into a whole episode on emotional processing, but essentially
there's two main ways that people cope with negative emotions
that are not helpful. The first way is to band
aid your emotions, and so that is essentially seeking somebody
(19:28):
or something that can give you a quick hit of
dopamine and serotonin and it temporarily relieves anxiety emotional distress. Right.
Serotonin is a huge buffer against anxiety. Dopamine is a
mood elevator, and it's the brain's reward system, and so
(19:49):
it can be a way to band aid, right. And essentially,
when we don't know how to truly somatically process emotions
and integrate the story of the emotion into our psyche,
which is what I teach in my hybrid program. By
the way, then if we have more anxiety, we'll seek
band aids. Avoidant people they don't seek band aids. They
(20:10):
seek suppression and dissociation. So they seek distraction, so they
will you know, I was actually just talking to our
hairdresser today. We have the same hairdresser, We have the
same just about every beauty provider is like the same
we see people. And she was talking to me about
how her ex husband was kind of a gamer, you know,
and she just came to the realization at my appointment
(20:31):
today that he was a DA. And she said, how
do you know if somebody's a DA, And I said, well,
they always have a dissociative crutch, so something that they
are very very immersed in order to stay dissociated from
their body, which is where their emotions live. And so
for him it was gaming. But oftentimes the suppression strategy
is work, you know, hobbies, which can be very pricey.
(20:55):
Some people have very pricey hobbies, yes, And so emotional coping,
whether it's a band aid or suppression, it can be costly,
not just to your body and to your mind, it's
very costly to your body and your mind, to your knowledge,
your marriage, your relationship, your relationship.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Absolutely so, yes, So it sounds like she was reaching
for a band aid because she just, I mean, from
what I understand, she never could ever ever integrate the
trauma of the divorce, like losing your dad to divorce
was just something that she could never come to terms with.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
No, and she never did. I mean, when she died,
they had been divorced for seventeen years and she was
still struggling emotionally from it.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Did she say that she didn't want your dad at
her funeral or like to speak it? Don't you dare
let your dad speak at her funeral? Like she's said
specifically in her will, these.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Were her exact words and her will to my four children.
I leave all my belongings to my ex husband. I
leave jackshit nothing. I mean, listen, sorry, Rick, Rick.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Rick was at my house today. We're close with your dad.
Dad's gonna. He's a great guy.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Daddy's great and but Daddy, would you know, I mean,
there were lots of things that I think my dad
did that kind of pushed her to those limits. You know.
I don't want to sell my dad out because of
course it's a little bit different. He's still alive, but
I think that if he was here, he would openly
talk about it. I think there was some emotional infidelity
(22:30):
on his part, which, again going back to the topic,
I think so many things when you're talking about financial infidelity,
like there's so many more root causes of why it happens.
So in my mom and dad's case, for example, I
think there was some emotional infidelity going on outside of
(22:51):
the marriage with my dad through multiple variables, not just women,
but his work, through you know, his social life. And
my mom didn't really have those things, and so it
was like her only infidelity or her only answer or
her only band aid was to spend.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yeah, and spending is very It can become an addiction.
Have you ever read that book, like the Confessions of
a Shopaholic. I think it's what it's called that is insane. Yeah,
that is some insane stuff. I remember reading that book
years and years and years ago and thinking how in the.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
World hundreds of thousands of dollars in day hundreds.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Spending can become addicting because it hijacked. I mean, anything
that hijacks your dopamine reward system can be addicting. Right,
Scrolling is addicting, spending is addicting, Gambling is addicting. And
money is one of these things. Like we talked about
last time, that there is a very intimate relationship we
all have with money. And I'm not gonna lie. I've
(23:50):
used money as a band aid in my life before.
After my ex died, I went on this and I
didn't have the money I did not have the money.
I had actually zero dollars. I racked up some credit
card debt because I went shopping and I bought designer
purses and I bought all this thing because I was
just trying to like have anything to hold on to
to make me feel better, anything. And that's why I'm
(24:14):
glad that I learned to really process my emotions because
I don't need those band aids. I can gather safety
in myself and I don't need dissociation. I don't need.
I'm not gonna lie. It feels good to dissociate sometimes
because everybody does, you're human, but it can't be your
primary band Aiding or associating can't be your primary strategy
of coping because it has consequences.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
And I mean, I'll be the first to admit that
in my relationship with my ex, I was terrible. I
was terrible, and again I think I was seeking just
any line of dopamine that I could possibly get at
that time. But it calls so much much rift between
(25:01):
him and I, and that's on me, you know, that's
on me because regardless of how he behaves, you know,
my reaction to it has nothing to do with him
and I think that that's you know, maybe where people
go wrong, they want to I know my mother wanted
to blame my father for all the wrongdoing that she
had done, but regardless of what he had done, she
(25:23):
had to take accountability for that part. And I take
accountability because I would. I would go, of course, we
lived in Harlan. I would go like, drop ridiculous, like
five hundred bucks at Walmart on nothing, I'm junk. And
then I'd come home and he'd be like what is
this raina like what is this like? And that's a
legitimate ask, right, Like, that's a legitimate ass to be like,
(25:43):
what are you doing? Yep?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
And money right now in this world, we have seen
such an inflationary shift where income has not caught up
even close with the inflationary shift, and it is every
single day I see people on social media talking about
how much they're struggling financially. And when you have somebody
(26:08):
who's committing financial infidelity, it feels like a massive betrayal
because finances are tied to your ability to support yourself,
to buy food, to put a roof over your head, yourself,
take care of yourself. And when someone isn't truthful or
honest or you can't be on the same page as
your partner financially for whatever reason. It's a recipe for disaster.
(26:32):
And they say, quote money is the number one cause
a divorce. It's not. It's lack of accountability. But that
can absolutely come with money, right. Lack of accountability around money.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Is a.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Huge predictor of divorce And a lot of people come
in to marriages committing financial infidelity because they don't they
aren't honest with their partner about how much credit card
debt they have, or how much student loan debt they have,
or how much whatever debt they have. I've seen couples
a lot that are in their second third month month
(27:04):
of marriage and this had been this is exposed, right,
So you marry someone and then all of a sudden
you find out they have one hundred thousand dollars in
debt and it was completely hidden, right, But you can't
hide it once you're married. And I mean unless you
keep like separate accounts. But usually when you're married, you
sort of upgrade where you live, you know, you buy
another car or whatever to accommodate your you know, joint
(27:28):
union together. And then that's where it starts to show.
And one of the ways that I actually caught my
ex and his drug habit at the very very beginning,
I want to talk about mind f okay. I found
out my husband was doing had a drug problem two
months into our marriage. You know, I had no idea.
(27:50):
I had no idea. We were a long distance, my bad,
and then when we moved in together, it was freaking obvious.
I'm like, where's the money, right, where's the freaking money,
you know, And then you know, and I was looking
in his eyes and I'm like, what are you taking here?
What are you doing? Because he was one of those
addicts where he could he didn't have to do it
(28:12):
every day, you know, how like it and you never
hardly see a drug addict like this, but you see
alcoholics that are, like, they don't drink every day, but
when they do drink, they go way overboard, right, They're
more of like a binge drinker. He was more of
like a binge drug user, Like he could go days
without doing it, but then when he did it, he'd
binge and it was super obvious. And so the way
(28:33):
that he got around duping me was that I was
at the University of Kentucky. He was at Western Kentucky University.
We only saw each other on the weekends, and he
just wouldn't do it when he's with me. So how
the frig was I supposed to know? Because he was
extremely well functioning, high functioning, and.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
So when he was drinking, he was high funded.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Always. He was the most high functioning addict until he died,
which was the crazy thing, or I should say till
shortly before his death, because he all, he's had a
great job, always quick on his feet, he was very
high iq, you know, and oftentimes that makes it worse
because you can't hit rock bottom right And the same
thing with people who have money issues that a lot
(29:16):
of times these folks they've had a history of being
bailed out, right, Like in a lot of client cases
I've had, mom and dad have stepped in and bailed
their child out over and over and over and over again.
Then they get married and the parents go, Okay, finally
there's somebody else's problem, right, right, finally, like you take her?
Do you take him? You know, it's funny. Your dad
(29:38):
even said that today. Your dad's like, well, if nobody
spoils rain and rain, I spoils right now. And I
was like, yeah, well you know, I can't. I was like,
I'm no better cliche popsch I got I got it
from you. She didn't learn this life of luxury from
no one. Yeah. But then this is revealed right like
(29:59):
two to three month into the relationship that someone has
a spending addiction. Yeah, and they have one hundred thousand
dollars of credit cards.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I can't imagine. And I that was a tough one
for me because there were there were lots of things
that I had to I don't want to. I don't
want to use the word confess, right because reveal reveal
that's a better word. That I had to reveal to Josh.
And one of those things was my financial past because
I didn't have a good one. And I'm I mean,
(30:27):
I said it on the episode with Clant. I feel
like every aspect of my life I've got a pretty
good grasp on.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, you're very successful, very high functioning. IM your great mom,
but you're really good at your job.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
But money is still just not with like not it's
within my reach. It's just my relationship with it that
I cannot seem to put my finger on, you know.
And can't really seem to get to the deep root cause.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
I mean, I just think it's addiction.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah I don't. I think that's a piece of it.
I think that's a piece but.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
There because I'm just as bad. But here's a thing.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I'm not going into debt.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
No, we're not going into debt. We're spending within our means. Yeah,
maybe we could save more, Maybe we could put that
towards more assets, which is what I'm trying to do.
And I think what is really really crappy about money?
Is it such a taboo topic. Yeah, it's such a
taboo topic. And so there's a lot of shame associated
with money in these situations, and what do we do
(31:33):
with shame? While we can either fight and defend against
it or we can run away from it. And that's
what happens, right, So we get the defensive responding, you know,
and we get the secrecy and we get the avoidance
around it. And it's it's tough for these people because
even though the betrayal wasn't with another person, it's still
(31:53):
a huge secret that rocks the foundation of in the
stability of the relationship.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
And still maybe not to the degree of maybe infidelity
with another person. But it can still feel like deep,
deep rejection. It can still feel like deep abandonment.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, because I didn't know you well enough, right, you
kept this from me. You decided to start a life
with me, and you weren't transparent about what you were
bringing to the table here. And I mean, I'm so
glad that you know what. The crazy thing is. The
one thing my husband and I never thought about was money.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I never thought about money because I denied myself so much.
And I think that's where my spending now comes from.
Is because when I was married, I denied myself everything.
Because my husband controlled the finances, I basically had equal
access to the money. But I knew he was watching,
and I didn't want to start a fight I was
(32:53):
trying to avoid. I mean, we thought about him having
sex with other people, but we didn't fight about money,
I know, And so it was just like I didn't
want that. I couldn't handle one more thing. So I
just went without and I would you know, if I
did spend money, it was on my kids.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
I have not deprived myself of anything.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
I did for.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I don't think ever in my life I did for really,
even when I was like again, I'll use the little
thing I like to always say, Like even when I
was living off Frameman noodles in a prayer, like I
still would go to my local Goodwill and I would
shop and you know, like I had to get that
shopping fix. Or I'd go to the J. C. Penny
in Middlesbrough and I'd go shopping there and I'd find
(33:38):
a way. I would find a way to shop.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, you know, it could be a band aid, it
could be addiction. Sometimes those two things start fashion. I
just love fashion. Okay, now my arn't form and here's
where it gets crazy. And so one of the we
should we should talk about Rent Runway. We should see
(34:00):
if they can collab with us for the podcast. I
am such a fan of Rent the Runway. This is
from address. This is from I can't even say it.
Rent the Runway because it gives me my shopping fix
with a set budget, and I get to rotate. So
I send it back and then I get to shop
for five or six new outfits and then I get
(34:21):
my little dopamine hit. But it's always the same price
every month. To me, that is the most genius concept
that has ever because I found that I was buying
things wearing them once and then I didn't really want
to wear them.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I'd not believe. The stuff that's in my closet right
now with tags on it, you wouldn't believe. And it's
because I bought it, haven't had time to wear it,
and then my style changes. Yet my style changes so
much or like I'll just go through like little phases
of like where I want to be, you know, a
little more fancy, or I want to.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Be a little bit more like And that's why I
like the rent the Runway because I get to pick
and choose like they have everything.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
We are not an endoorser, No we are.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
We aren't. But hey, if anybody associated that business is listening,
please reach out for it. Do us for a collab
because I am a big fan.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I did try it once and I just probably didn't
give it enough of a chance. I just didn't like
the things I ordered, But I would be willing to
try it again.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, it's a learning curve. It's a learning curve with
it because like when I when I order stuff like
I really dig through the reviews and look at the
pictures that people have posted with it on and there's
some things that I have been like, oh, that's so cute.
I definitely want that. And then I went to the
pictures and I was like, that doesn't look good on anybody.
Like that doesn't look anything like I thought it would.
(35:34):
So then I, you know, take it out of my car.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
This stress is hot by you.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
I know. I was leaving.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
My husband was like, you want And then when she
walked in today, I was like, your husband needs to
take you on a date today.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Yeah, you're in that funny Yeah, but back to back
to our topic. Sorry, we had a little well and
I mean this is.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Actually speaking of endorsements. This isn't an endorsement, but I
just we will not endorse anything that we don't believe in.
Speaking of things that we believe in. Both of us
highly believe in the bedget.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Oh my gosh, guys, once you have a bedget, we'll
never go back. I had to buy I had to
buy them for the camper, and now I hate staying
in hotels and I'm almost about to just pack them
in the suitcase.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
You know how much I could not wait to get
home to my bed, Like I missed my animals, obviously,
but I didn't.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
You miss your bedget didn't you?
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I missed everything about my bed the bedget, yes, my
temper pedic mattress, yes, my cozy earth sheets, all of
the above, all of the things combined. I's kiss it.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Is it is. I can't sleep without it now. I'm
so spoiled because I go to bed cold and then
I warm up throughout the night. So the thing about
the bedjet is it is basically an HVAC system for
your bed, okay, and it blows through this cloud sheet. Okay,
So it's not blowing directly on you like I fans
(37:00):
because I don't like feeling air blow on me. I
don't like that. And so the cloud sheet where it
blows through the cloud, it's just this enveloping temperature. It
isn't You're not having it blow directly on you. And
it really does puff up like a cloud, like you're
sleeping in a cloud, which is pretty amazing. And you
have the ability to have a dual system, so your
(37:22):
partner can have, you know, his or her own unit
and you have your own remote. You also have a
phone app. It was built by somebody affiliated with NASA,
NASA engineer. It is quiet, It makes just like a
very very quiet, makes just a very gentle hum which
actually can law you to sleep. It is worth the price,
(37:43):
one hundred percent. You're going to yes, speaking of the episode,
tell your partner you're buying a bedget. But the price point,
honestly is it relevant for what it delivers.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
It's absolutely worth it. And you can set bio rhythms.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
A bio rhythms that's the big that's me, that'd be
everything for me.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
And it takes I will say, it takes a while
to kind of gauge what your body does throughout the night.
But you can change the biorhythms and it gives you
an opportunity to set three different bioorhythms where you can.
I always love to get my bed. The best way
I know how to compare it is like that fresh
out of the dryer sheet feeling yep.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
I start hot, I get it warm, and then it
cools me down. And actually, the science behind sleep and
better sleep is that your body temperature has to lower
itself as you sleep. So if you have a helper
with that right, like the Badget, it can cool you
down as you sleep, which mimics your natural response and
(38:40):
helps you fall asleep. Better. So my sleep has improved
one thousand percent with the Bedget, especially as a permenopausal
women around my cycle, I would always sweat the bed.
They have a dry function. It kicks into my dry
function at a certain point in the night where you know,
I know, I'm around the time where I could be
sweat in the bed. I'm dry as a bone, dry
(39:02):
as a bone. And I just can't brag on this
product enough. Guys. I know we had Okay, we have
copy points we're supposed to follow. We're not following. I'm sorry, Bedget.
We're just actually going with our true feelings about the product.
And that is one of the things when Rain and
I started this podcast, we said we are only going
to take endorsements that we actually use and we actually like.
(39:22):
If we think the product sucks, we're not going to
sell out and endorse it. So you can trust our
reviews that we have tried them, we believe in the product,
and we will continue using the product. So you can
go to bedget dot com, slash love doc okay as
the link and you can receive.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Fifty dollars off. But it's the dual system or the
budget plus the cloud sheet. Yes, so those are the
only combinations that the fifty dollars off is good.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
For, which is which is a generous discount. So please
go check out the Bedget. We are so thrilled to
have them as an affiliate.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
You will not regret this person, You can't.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
You cannot regret it. It will be and for our
mail listeners, it will be the best present you ever
get your own.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
My gosh, I've said that Josh has gotten me a
lot of things that I don't use, like my room
ba and my foot massager, but my bedjet is the
by far, the best thing that he did.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
It was so funny when I was showing Donald, He's like,
do we really need a Bedget? Like are we that spoiled?
And I was like, I'm sorry, I'm sweating the bed. Yeah,
I need something. This menopause is kicking my butt. And
now he's like, I can't believe I ever said that
we didn't need this. This is amazing, and we just
like want to come on from vacation because we want
our bedget same.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
I could not wait. I could not wait because I
didn't sleep great on the cruise. I will say it
was the beds. In fact, in my review for the
Royal Caribbean. Listen to the cruise. A cruise isn't the
first way that I would choose to travel, but it
was a great way to do it and see lots
of places in Alaska and just really be out on
the ocean and see the vastness and the landscape. But
(40:58):
their beds need an upgrade, like bad, because sleep is
so important when you're on vacation because you're doing so much. Yeah,
you have to, and then the time zone change and
all that. It's just like sleep. I was so sleep
deprived on this trip. So sleep. It's like I took
a series of naps the whole time I was on
the Oh that's yeah, Brilly. It was brutal. So and
(41:18):
now I'm jet lagged and still for like living in
the four hour time difference. Like I didn't go to
bed till after three am last night, but I will
say once I did go to sleep, I slept like
a rock because of my veget.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
So if you're going to get the bedget, just be
honest with your partner about the purchase, make them excited
about it. Obviously, live within your means and your budget,
but you can get that fifty dollars off. Yes, bedget
dot com slash love doc.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
So back to the point at hand again, talking about
financial infidelity. We've talked about secret spending. We've talked about
revenge spending.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
We've talked about coming in with debt that you do
not reveal.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Right, and then control course of control through finances. Is
there anything else?
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, So let's talk a little bit about solutions.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Obviously, honesty is the best policy before you get married, Yes,
before you get married, because I have seen couples divorce
at a couple months in because of this reason, and
so it does happen. So just know that if you're
going in, you're gonna I know it seems risky now
to tell them it's riskier when you're already married. Divorce
is also costly, so then you're going to rack up
(42:30):
more debt from the divorce, right, if someone leaves you
for your dishonesty. And there's help and there's resources out
there for people who are spending addicts. I mean, they
have sort of AA type programs with the same structure
for spending addiction and they help you budget. There's some
you know, really great resources out there in terms of
(42:53):
financial planners. There's lots of programs you can buy clin
let's talk up Clint for the last episode years. Listen
to that episode and reach out to current.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Financial counselor because he has so much emotional depth and
like what those root causes.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Are, right, And so we just think it's like, well,
just stop. But it's not that easy. If you're addicted
to something or it's an emotional band aid, that which
is essentially a crutch for emotional processing, you don't know
how to give it up. You don't know how to
give it up, because then the end result than is pain.
I think the better solution is to learn if you
are you know that you are using money as a
(43:32):
band aid. Take my hybrid group. Learn to process your
emotions to completion. Learn the somatic strategies, learn the cognitive strategies,
because that is a real key to being able to
not use money as an emotional band aid.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
And I know this is all I have to offer,
but I think a simple solution is, you know, when
you have the opportunity, just just spend more time in
nature and get more in touch with you know, really
those surroundings.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
The free things in life. Yeah, the free gifts of life.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yes, get in touch with more of the free things
in life, which is again I'm a work in process.
I'm still working on all those things. But I have
found that when I get into nature, like when I
again when I was on this cruise to Alaska, I
could kind of see myself living there and giving up
all of the material things in my life, and to me,
(44:29):
that felt very free like that. There's a freedom to that. Yeah,
And and but I don't know if I'm quite ready
for it.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
And and one thing that I learned that I think
I will never ever ever doubt in my entire life
is that ten percent goes to God. No matter what,
that's biblical. Ten percent goes to God. And when you
actually give that ten percent, God absolutely rewards you for that.
It comes back to you. And the more I been
(45:00):
challenged to give in my life, and the more I
have felt called to give, because I try to be
very very generous. I don't care about being that rich.
I want to be comfortable, which I am. But and
so beyond comfort, I'm like, Okay, I can give it away, right,
So I try to give it away to charity or
try to get I give, you know more, than ten
percent to the church every every month, and I should
(45:23):
say every week. And it's God has come. It has
come back to me too full.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
It always does.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
So don't doubt God. Don't doubt that you are tithing.
Just don't see it as like one more expense. See
it is. This is going to be God rewarding me
and placing opportunities in my life for it to come
back to me. Just bet on God. And that was
actually a sermon that we had a year or two ago.
(45:51):
Our pastor just challenged us like, of course, you know
the church needs money, but you know up your giving.
Give the full ten percent of your income and see
what happens.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
And even if you can't give, like just seek God
when there's temptation.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Right, or give what you can. If you only have
a dollar, give a dollar, you know, give a dollar
to the homeless person on the side of the road. Give
a dollar in the offering plate. Even if it's just
a dollar, it's a dollar that may buy somebody a
bottle of water, or your time.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
To your time. I mean that that service is completely free.
And I mean back to going back to you know,
just seeking out the things in life that gives in
life that are free, right, and that and that is
those things are priceless, baby, priceless.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
And that is atonement for if you've had you know, greed,
or you've had some problems with overspending, not.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
To mention, it's something that can bring you and your
partner closer together if you do it together.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yes, absolutely, yeah, I agree, so seek solutions. Obviously, I'm
not a financial advisor, I'm not a financial counselor, but
I can teach you how to process your emotions so
that you don't use money as a band aid to
your emotions. I think that it's probably more of a
problem for people than we talk.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
About, oh for sure, for sure, So.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
I think that's a great place to wrap up.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So, of course, if you are thinking financial stability or
just really secure attachment, which I think leads to any
type of stability that you're searching for, please go check
out doctor Hinsley at the loovedoc dot com. For all
of our listeners. We offer a special promo code love
dot twenty seven that will give you twenty seven percent
off any of her hybrid groups, any of Coach Elizabeth's
(47:31):
hybrid groups, and any of doctor Hinsley's courses to which
you have access to for Life, so you can go
back and revisit it anytime you want. Even with the
hybrid group, you have access to the course for Life,
and you have access to the video recordings for life.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Yes, so the recorded calls that we do, we do
four of them with the group. You can be anonymous
in the group if you want to be. You can
be a blank screen and you can ask questions via
private chat and I will just answer them and not
reveal any personal details if you tell me not to.
And yeah, you can learn the strategies to really become
(48:08):
secure and to have your nervous system only be reliant
upon you instead of another person or money or whatever else.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Yeah, and it'll give you the opportunity to be more honest.
I always say I couldn't have gone into my marriage
or been as honest as I was with Josh, given
the things that I'd been through if I wasn't securely attached,
And because it allowed me to really to be honest
with myself first so that I could be honest with him.
(48:39):
So reaching secure attachment. I'll say it all the time.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
It's the answer to everything, literally, the answer to pretty
much everything. Because it's just it's nervous system resilience, right,
and so you don't rely on Everybody in this world
is running from emotional pain, and we have to learn
to stop doing that. We have to learn to face
our pain.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
That's all I mean, that's all financial infidelity is is
running from emotional pain.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
I saw a TikTok, and I cannot tell you who
made the TikTok, So I apologize to the person who
said this, because I'm not stealing your content. They were
talking about addiction recovery, and they were saying that the
people that actually recover from addiction are not the people
that are like, Okay, well, I guess I need to
quit drinking because I'm going to lose my wife, or
I guess I need to quit spending because I'm going
(49:24):
to lose my husband. Those people never stop. The people
that actually stop are the people that are like, screw it.
No matter what road I take, I'm facing pain. So
I might as well just do the hard work and
face the pain of overcoming this and face the pain
that abstinence from the springs, because all the roads lead
to pain, right, So whatever, I'm ready to face it.
(49:46):
But the people that are like doing it so they
don't lose their marriage. They're actually just coming from a
place of trying to avoid the greater pain, right and sore,
but they're not ready to face pain, and so they
move through it, and abstinence causes pain, and I have
to cope with pain. So they go right back, all right,
right to the addiction.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yeah, And so I thought that was, you know, really
really interesting.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
Yeah, it is very interesting. And I know that you
teach a lot of that in your group. I do.
Now with that said, we do want to thank our
other affiliate Armor.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Right here in our cups, I have the blood orange
in there today.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
M m. You know, so I've never actually done the
blood orange. I've always been like orange just really orange
just isn't really like my favorite flavor. But I did
just order the pineapple, so I'll report back about the pineapple.
But Armor colostrum is an all around supplement, all around
supplement that again I use. I'm using heavily right now.
(50:43):
I'm doing about three scoops a day, just trying to
recover from vacation and get like my digestive track back
in order.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Because it is a fantastic supplement for the gut. And
do you know that you have more neurotransmitters or I
should say almost as many neurotransmitters in your gut than
you do in your brain. Leave it. They call it
so a second it's the second brain. And so a
lot of mental health, you know, it starts in the gut,
but also vice versa, like your mental health influences your gut,
and so if you need strong support for your gut,
(51:12):
specifically your gut lining, Armora Closstrum is an amazing supplement
and it has really helped my skin. I think it
has helped my hair, my nails, because when your immune
system functions optimally and your gut functions optimally, you feel
better all around.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Absolutely, so thank you Armor. You can use code lovedoc
at checkout and receive fifteen percent off if you are
a first time buyer, or if you sign up for
the subscription, which I highly highly recommend.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
If it mind just comes in the mail, yeah and
you got to think about it, you get an even
bigger discount if you sign up for the subscription.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Yep, So thank you Armor. Thank you to each and
every one of you that tunes in every week, and
if you've made it this far to the end. We
love you guys so much.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Please sign up at our Patreons Yes we want you
to get the special benefits of being a patrin
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Yeah, and get to see the full visual episodes, especially
Doctor Hinsley's dress today because it is sa far it
is super cute, super summary, So please go go find
us at patreons dot com, Slash the Love Dog podcast
and until next time, peace, love, and perspective.
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