Episode 14, Season II: “Mending Hearts & Homes: The Power of Mediation with Joe Dillon of Equitable Mediation”

Hosted by Dr. Sarah Hensley, Specialized Social Psychologist, Attachment Theory Expert, and Founder & CEO of The Love Doc Relationship Coaching Services with Co-host Raina Butcher, Owner/CEO of Joyful Consulting, LLC. 

Welcome to "The Love Doc Podcast" Season II, where Host Dr. Sarah Hensley and her co-host Raina Butcher dive deep into the intricacies of love, attraction, attachment, relationships, and self-awareness. Dr. Hensley brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to help listeners navigate the complexities of modern romance. In each episode, Dr. Hensley tackles burning questions about love, relationships, and the mind’s complexities, drawing from her psychological research, real-life experiences, and her own individual expertise, to provide insightful perspectives and practical advice.

In this uplifting episode of The Love Doc Podcast, Dr. Hensley and Raina welcome Joe Dillon, co-founder of Equitable Mediation Services and a seasoned expert in divorce mediation. As a powerful continuation of our Family Court Series, this episode offers listeners a beacon of hope—clear, compassionate alternatives to conventional court separation and custody disputes.

Joe brings both personal insight and profound expertise to this conversation. Inspired by his own experience as a child of divorce who witnessed the emotionally devastating effects of lawyer-driven litigation, Joe’s mission is rooted in preventing similar trauma from impacting other families. With over 17 years of private mediation practice under his belt—and an MBA in finance, plus training from prestigious institutions such as Harvard, MIT, and Northwestern—he combines emotional intelligence and financial savviness to guide couples toward fair, collaborative outcomes.

One of the most compelling parts of the discussion centers on the "interest-based negotiation" model Joe champions—an approach that shifts focus from entrenched positions to underlying needs and shared goals. Joe explains how mediation fosters "win-win" agreements and dramatically reduces costs and emotional damage compared to traditional litigation, which he notes can reach as high as $200,000—the equivalent of a four-year college education.

This episode also shines a spotlight on Joe’s pioneering role in virtual mediation—a service he launched in 2011, well before many embraced remote alternatives during the pandemic. His practices empower families across numerous states (California, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Washington State) to engage in thoughtful, structured mediation from any location.

Throughout the episode, Joe extends tangible resources: from free courses, helpful blogs, and consultation options available through Equitable Mediation, to advice on designing “roommate agreements” when post-divorce couples find it necessary to continue co-habitating for financial or logistical reasons. This episode explores why mediators aren’t just facilitators—they’re peace architects, helping couples untangle complex emotional and financial decisions in ways that protect children, relationships, and dignity.

Why This Episode Matters for Our Listeners

1. Offers a Practical Alternative to Litigation
   Through Joe’s personal journey and his data-backed approach, listeners can discover a kinder, more constructive path out of marriage or parent-child tension that preserves both stability and civility.
2. Reduces Financial and Emotional Toll
   As Joe highlights, mediation not only lowers the fiscal burden of divorce but also shields families—especially children—from the trauma of court conflict.
3. Accessible Anywhere, Anytime
   Joe’s virtual-first model makes mediation accessible regardless of geography, fitting seamlessly into modern, busy lives.
4. Provides Real-World Tools and Empowerment
   From negotiation frameworks to free educational content and flexible agreements, this episode equips listeners with knowledge, hope, and actionable steps.

Episode 14 isn’t just another episode—it’s a lifeline for families navigating the storm of separation. Joe Dillon will show you that healing, fairness, and hope are possible—even when the path seems steep. Mediation isn't just a process; it’s a bridge to a new chapter defined by cooperation and compassion.

You can find Joe and all his services at https://www.equitablemediation.com/

Tune in to "The Love Doc Podcast" every Tuesday morning for candid conversations, expert guidance, and a deeper understanding of life, love and relationships in the modern world. To see all of Dr. Hensley’s services please visit the links below and follow her on social media. 

PROMO CODE FOR OUR LISTENERS: Use LOVEDOC27 to receive 27% off any of Dr. Hensley's courses or her Hybrid Group Coaching Program. <

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Love Dog Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm your co host Raina Butcher here with our host,
doctor Sarah Hinsley, the founder and CEO of the Love
Dog Relationship coaching services and the Love Dog Podcast. You
can find her at the lovedoc dot com and on
all social medias at doctor Sarah Hinsley.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Hey, Hey, hey, Hey, how are you.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
I am good, A little bit jet lagged again.

Speaker 4 (00:33):
It was the first week of school, which does mean
that car line relationship advice is bad. And I think
people are excited about that and I love doing that,
but I do feel almost jet lagged because I was
getting up at like eight am and now I'm getting.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Up at six am.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
It's a big difference, like it's still dark outside when
you're working.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Yes, right, you know.

Speaker 4 (00:55):
I have an eight year old, I have a fourteen
year old. I have two beautiful step children seven and
almost thirteen, and so we have a lot going on.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
I can attest to the fact that doctor Hensley has
a lot going over alone.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
That is the joke.

Speaker 4 (01:14):
Yeah, that is the joke that I literally am never
if I like drive to target maybe to get something,
then I'm alone.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
But yeah, and then there's me who.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Is perpetually alone.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yeah, he's perpetually alone because I have a husband who
works long shift hours and now my son has spread
his wings and is off to college. I just moved
him in this week, so I'm officially in my empty nest.

Speaker 4 (01:38):
Error, my goodness, that is one of the joys of
having kids younger. Yeah, Whereas I had my youngest almost
at thirty five, So I'm just like, I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
Going to be just so old. Here's the downfall.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
I will say, like I'm forty two, and I feel
like I still have so much energy, if not more
inner now than I did, you know, at twenty three
twenty four when I had him, And I like myself
a lot better. I'm more grounded in who I am,
and so I don't totally feel ready to be an
empty nester. Like I could say, like if I was

(02:15):
fifty two, I would feel a lot more prepared and ready,
like that I'd spent a longer amount of time parenting,
and it just, you know, that's I think, the not
a downfall per se, but like having just one child,
you know, like my mom was a parent for twenty
six years because she had four children, Like I only
got the eighteen years right, like that was it and

(02:37):
then it's over and you're like you mourn it, you
mourn it, and it's it's you know, it's it's there
are new feelings that you will never feel until you're
in it. Yeah, and it's it's both feelings of happiness
and tons of joy and also like being in a
relationship with someone who doesn't want to be in a.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Relationship with you, Like that's pretty much what I feels like.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
But anyway, so we always like to give a little
summary of our lives.

Speaker 4 (03:04):
Spooking of not wanting to be in a relationship with
someone anymore.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
We have a very special guest today. Why don't you
introduce it?

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, so Joe Dylan is with us today, and we
are super excited to have you on, Joe because he
has a very unique set of skills that I think
we'll really educate our listeners on some things that honestly,
I didn't even know until you just told us prior
to prior to us starting to record, which was that

(03:35):
so you mediate for people who are going through divorces.
But here's the kicker, Joe is not an attorney. So
I'm going to let you introduce yourself, give our listeners,
just sort of a synopsis summary of who you are
and what you do.

Speaker 5 (03:51):
All right, well, thanks for having me.

Speaker 6 (03:52):
Absolutely, it is an interesting job that I have no
question about it. So I'm a divorce mediator. I've been
mediating for twenty eight years. I've been in private practice
for seventeen and really I help people get a divorce
without a lawyer if they so choose. So I don't
represent either a party. I advocate for both of them
and their children. I bring them through our own proprietary process,

(04:16):
including forums, worksheets, videos. We have direct negotiations to help
them resolve all the issues they need to get their
divorce draft up, their agreement, and then I send them
on their way. So it's an interesting job in the
sense that most people think you need an attorney to
get a divorce, but there is no law anywhere that

(04:37):
says you must have an attorney. Some people choose to
some think that I have to call a lawyer. On
the other hand, many folks say to themselves, we'd like
to avoid using attorneys, no disrespect to those in the profession.
So all my best friends are attorneys, right, But there
are cases where if you have an amicable divorce where
a client couple wants to move forward peacefully, they have kids,

(04:59):
they don't want to drag it out, they don't want
to spend a ton of money. Mediation is a great option.
So that's exactly what I help people do.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Yeah, and that is so beautiful. And I think this
is this is such a great way. Even though our
Family Court series was you know, a couple like a
month or so ago, this is a great episode to
listen to if you listen to that series, because I
think this is an episode that can give people hope,
right right, because you see people who actually come into

(05:26):
your practice who are peaceful about a divorce, and if
you and and then if they're not totally there, you
could help them get there.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Correct.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely, And I think that's no. I was
just gonna say, I think that's really beautiful and it
can give people hope because divorce is so scary. Divorce
is so scary for the financial reason, for you know,
the assets reason, and of course for the children, you know,
because it really traumatizes the children.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
So go ahead, duck.

Speaker 4 (05:58):
Yeah, I was going to say, you know, everybody is
so scared of divorce because of the conflict and especially
because of the impact on children. And what I try
to tell people is there's this nuance in the science. Yes,
divorce is kind of this global or general risk factor
for children, but when we get nuanced about it, we

(06:19):
really see that the way that the divorce is handled
is the biggest moderator of the impact.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
On the children.

Speaker 4 (06:26):
If a divorce is extremely nasty and parents can't get
along and they don't cooperate and they're not good co parents,
and they parentify their children and put them in the middle,
then we see really negative effects of divorce. But when
we see people that go through divorce amicably and they
are good, securely attached co parents, and securely attached parents

(06:46):
to their kids and amical co parents to each other,
then we don't see divorce being this huge risk factor
on kids' mental health and you know, likelihood of success
in life. So I do think what you do is
really awesome, but I do have a question of.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
How much do.

Speaker 4 (07:05):
You see people trying to be amicable and then you
see sort of a degradation of the process where you
really have to work hard to bring people back to
an amicable and amicable place because divorce tends to bring
out the worst in people in ways that I think
they don't expect going in. I know, my first marriage

(07:27):
ended in divorce, and even though it was a very
abusive marriage, my husband really he didn't like to spend
a lot of money.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
He didn't want to spend a lot of money.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
We tried to work out as much as we could
in the beginning, like without anybody, and that was probably
a mistake, and then it got really ugly and really nasty,
and we ended up both spending way more in attorney fees,
and then we even had to I basically said I
had to go back and do my divorce a second
time because we rushed it and we just wanted to

(07:58):
get it over with and we missed a lot, and
even with attorneys, we missed a lot of things that
I should have had in place to protect myself. And
I had to go back and we had a almost
had a trial, or trial got pushed back. We went
through mediation. We literally got things what I thought was
kind of hammered out. I was still wanting to go

(08:20):
through trial because I didn't get everything that I needed
because there was a lot of really significant problems.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
And then he passed away two weeks later.

Speaker 4 (08:27):
But the mediation at least gave me some protections that
I felt like I needed. But it still it didn't
cover everything. So I guess my question is, and saying
all that is, do you see the process break down?
And when it does, what are your strategies for getting
people back to a more amicable place.

Speaker 5 (08:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (08:51):
So, in our practice, most of the people who come
and work with us are what we would say self selective, right.
They are the ones who say, we want an amicable divorce,
we want to have this be peaceful. So our private practice,
we don't see a lot of people who are in
real high conflict. We screen, we ask a lot of questions,

(09:14):
we have an intake, we have an initial meeting even
before they become clients. That's not to say, as you said, Doc,
that in the middle of this process it can get heated.
It's by definition a conflict a divorce. So these individuals,
when we have folks like that, the enemy of my
enemy is my friend. The court system, as we know,

(09:37):
is really kind of broken. When we work at the
court system, I am so impressed by the people judges, clerks,
people who work in the court system. They do the
yeoman's work.

Speaker 5 (09:49):
They are.

Speaker 6 (09:50):
My goodness, I would never want that job. Those folks
are working day and night, shorthanded short budgets and they're
doing the very best they can, and you don't want
to get into that system. So as a mediator, I'm
able to say to people, listen, we can figure it
out here, or we can send you off to the
court system. And you all know what that's about. You're

(10:14):
not going to get a good result. You're not going
to get this done amicably. You're not going to be
done in less than a year or two or three.
Why don't we settle it here, Come on back to
the table. I know we can do this. I'm almost,
in effect a cheerleader trying to get people to stay around,
So that's like a coach, tell them, yeah, absolutely, like

(10:35):
hang with me.

Speaker 5 (10:36):
I know we can do this.

Speaker 6 (10:37):
And one of the things that we share with people
is that we have a ninety eight percent case resolution rate.

Speaker 5 (10:42):
Now, industry is.

Speaker 6 (10:44):
Mediation is about seventy percent. So when we talk to people,
we tell them you have a ninety eight percent chance
of getting through this if you just stay with us.

Speaker 5 (10:53):
Just hang in there. We hope they do, and more
often than not, they do.

Speaker 6 (10:58):
Maybe a handful of clients have gone by the wayside, right,
that's how we do it.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
We keep them and I'm sure too.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
You know, the children are always a wonderful point to
bring up to people when they're going through mediation and
they do want it to be peaceful. Is you know,
you always bring the parents back to the child or
children and say, well, don't you want the best for
the children, don't you?

Speaker 3 (11:22):
You know?

Speaker 1 (11:22):
And I think that most you know, people that.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Are are rational are able to say, you know, are
able to say yes, of course, yes, we want what's
best for our children. We want to work together, we
want to we want to co parent constructively. And you know,
I think one thing that could be really really great
about mediation and doing it peaceful is it really sets

(11:45):
parents up to know how to co parent, because co
parenting is complex, and it's complex even.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
When you are peaceful.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
Right.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
So because it's it's new, right, you're you're you're creating
these new you know, uh dynamics with your families. And
so I think mediation could be beautiful and setting people
up properly to learn how to co parent together. And this,
this just gives people so much hope because I know
you know, I see a lot of messages that come

(12:16):
into Doc's practice. A lot of times people are just terrified, right,
they know they need to get a divorce, but they're
just absolutely terrified to do it.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Now.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
A lot of times there are abusive situations, which I think,
of course, maybe mediation isn't always right for that, but
a lot of times it's just finance based, right, It's
just because they're scared of what the financial situation will
be after that, or what the child situation will be
after that. And so I think that you know, what
you offer is beautiful. So I just want to know,

(12:53):
are there certain types of and you've sort of already
answered this, but maybe like give a real life example,
of course without like saying names, but are there certain
couples or situations where mediation really works best.

Speaker 6 (13:07):
Let's see, there are a few that come to mind.
One is we we have child focused parents. So these
are individuals where they both work, they both are actively
involved in their kids' lives. We call them, you know,
the all in mom, the all in dad. Dad's the coach.
Mom's the coach, these kinds of things. Those folks definitely, right,

(13:29):
as you said, can put the kids first and really
focus their their agreement on what's best for them, truly
what's best for them, not what is really best for us,
but we're going to pretend it's.

Speaker 5 (13:41):
Best for them.

Speaker 6 (13:42):
Yeah, right, and not another dynamic which I really I
enjoy working with given my background. My background is in
finance and negotiation. I tend to work with a lot
of high net worth couples where we have C level
executives vps. Folks like that we have a dynamic where
we have one person who works outside the home and

(14:02):
one person who works inside the home. Those individuals where
they each respect and recognize each other's roles. Those are
wonderful clients despite their income difference. The person who works
outside the home isn't saying that formula is unfair. I'm
paying all this child support. They say, you know what,

(14:22):
I could never have done what you did? You know,
person who worked inside the home. We work with what
we would call moms and dads right who are who
are raising kids. It's not just mom anymore, it's dad too,
or sometimes do that, and they're willing to provide the
resources whatever it takes. They'll live in a studio apartment
if the kids can stay in the house. They'll just

(14:44):
make sure. And those situations are wonderful when you have
that parent, for example, as I said, you've got someone
who's going to stay in the house, and let's say
it's dad, who's going to just have that studio apartment.
That sends such a strong message to the kids and
to the the other soon to be at that says
I really do still care about you and about my family.

(15:05):
And we'll see those folks spending holidays together and having
dinners together at the house and you're like, Wow, this
is fantastic. That's our ideal situation. Those kinds of clients
really tend to work best in mediation where they each
acknowledge the role the other party has played and value
it equally.

Speaker 5 (15:24):
So that's what I would say.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
And I'm so envious that you get to see this
beautiful side.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Of divorce, yes, because I think I.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
See I seen the ugly side, the fly.

Speaker 4 (15:35):
Side as well, been through mediation myself. I think in
my mediation process it really wasn't I think we had
a good mediator. It wasn't as terrible as I thought
it was going to be. But I have also been
close to another situation where basically the other party sat

(15:56):
and mediation and just said absolutely not to everything that
was put on the table, and they got one hundred
percent of their way, and it was either go to trial,
and we already knew that things were not going to
be that things were going to be biased. And at
the end of the day, this person who I am

(16:18):
close to, who went through the mediation just gave up
and got nothing, got absolutely nothing that was best for
the child. And the other party was so incredibly selfish,
not wanting anything that was best for the child, but
just what was best for her. And it was really

(16:38):
sad at the end of the day. And we ended
up the court made us pay for mediation because she
couldn't pay for it because of her financial situation, So
we basically paid for an entire mediation where we got nothing.
And So what do you have to say about those
types of situations when you hear a story like that,
what comes up for you?

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Well, I know you think you've had your own I
was going to say, you've had your own personal experience
with also seeing the ugly.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
With your childhood.

Speaker 6 (17:08):
Yeah, I'll get to that in a second. But to
answer the doctor's question, that's the classic impasse. That person
there's no you know, reasoning with that person, And all
I can think of is that poor kid or those
poor kids people. When you have children involved, and we

(17:28):
all know this as parents, you know this. If you
ever want, if you ever want to have some secrets
spread around the neighborhood, tell a kid and say to them,
do not tell anyone this, right. Children absorb things. They
shout it out from the rooftops. They model behavior. So
say you're in the kitchen and you cut your finger

(17:50):
while you're slice and a vegetable, and you swear you're
going to run around the house swearing this thing. Modeling
is huge. And so when you're in those situations and
that child or those children at that time, they might
not be old enough to understand what's happening. But trust
me when I tell you ten twenty thirty years down
the road, those kids are going to have a lot

(18:12):
of deep seated issues. They're going to need to do
a lot of work. And unfortunately, they might not recognize
they need to do work on themselves, because if they're
coming from that situation where there's an individual who's just
so self centered, they don't recognize that, oh, this is
a problem that just spurs another generation of that, and
unfortunately we do see that, We do see people who

(18:34):
do that, and sometimes there's just no getting around it.
And then you ask yourself not only the financial we
also say the biggest cost of divorce is not financial,
it's emotional. You have to ask yourself. Do I walk away, rebuild,
reconnect with myself and just shake off what happened despite

(18:55):
how unfair it was, and live my life, or do
I just stay in the mind and keep battling and
battling and battling for as you said, what nothing.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
We want to take a minute to think. Our sponsor
of this podcast, Cozy Earth, thank you so much, Cozy Earth.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
We love love, love your brow.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yeah, I love you, love you.

Speaker 4 (19:14):
I just bought a sheet set for our camper bed
and it has totally transformed my experience in the camper
because there is nothing like Cozy Earth sheets. Honestly, they
are made from the viscous from bamboo, and I don't
know what kind of magic they do to make this happen,
but the only way I can describe it is like
if the purest most organic cotton met the purest softest silk.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
Yes, yeah, that's like what it is. That was the
perfect description.

Speaker 4 (19:41):
Oh my gosh, that's exactly, but I can't, like, you
have to feel it to know it is so luxurious,
so soft. They hold up so amazingly well in the wash.
I don't know how many times we've watched ours, but
it's just like the day we got them.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, and there's never any fuzzy balls or never any feeling. Actually,
just my entire son's dorm is in co the Earth.

Speaker 3 (20:00):
I know Rena spent her Cozy Earth credit.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
I know on her.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
I love him, and you know what he's like, Uh No,
I don't want that on their mom.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
I'm like, look at this beautiful throw. Look at it's
Cozy Earths.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
It was the colors of his college.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
It was. It was perfect navy and gold. So maybe
someday he'll appreciate it. But we appreciate.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
We appreciate it because we love comfort.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
Yes, and you will not find comfort like you will
at Cozy Earth. Their pajamas are amazing, their socks are amazing.
We just got a bubble blanket, fuzzy bubble blanket that
is to die for. It is little weighted, it is
a little bit weighted, not so much where you feel
like it's crushing you, but enough to give you that
relaxation that you're craving because a little bit of heaviness

(20:46):
is wonderful for your nervous systems to calm you down.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
And it is my favorite TV watching blanket Now, So for.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
All Star careers, for all of our listeners, we offer
a special promo code love Doc for forty percent off.
So generous, yes, So go check them out at cozyearth
dot com. Use promo code love Doc. And while you're
at it, don't forget. After purchase, fill out their post
purchase survey and they will send you a free pair

(21:14):
of Cozy Earth socks.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
I love my Earth.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yes, thank you, Cozy, Thank you.

Speaker 4 (21:18):
Crux right there, of what you just said was what
exactly transpired, and you know the situation it was. It
seemed like a no brainer, but we we you know,
there was so much fighting involved, and it was basically
a situation where mom had made child truant from school

(21:41):
several years in a row, was not actively involved in school.
The school the child was attending in mom's district was
a failing school, and the child in dad's district or
the school in dad's district was like an a school
and dad had been paying for tutoring to catch the
child because of the truancy there had been there. You know,

(22:02):
test scores were low and a child was behind and
a friend of the court just said where, hey, kid,
where do you want to go to school? And kid says, well,
I kind of want to stay where I'm at. I
have friends. So a friend of the court said, okay,
well we keep them in where he's at. And then
it became about, well, you know, this is what the

(22:22):
kid wants. So court friend of the court who's going
to advise a judge just says, keep them where he's at,
and the bigger issues of truancy and you know, neglect
and being in a subpar school district just didn't seem
to matter. And then so basically, you know, you're forced
to the table at that point. You're forced to go
to mediation at that point because you know what the

(22:44):
outcome is going to be. Because you know that these
friend of the courts are the guardian ad items or
the parenting coordinators. Most of the time, their input weighs
so heavy on the judge, and so you have that upfront,
and so it's either we can go to the mediation
table and see if we can get some some compromise,

(23:04):
or we can go pay thirty thousand dollars for a
trial when you already know what the outcome is going
to be. And it played out exactly as you know,
Dad thought it would play out, which was get We're
going to get nothing, and Mom's going to stick her
heels in and say I know I have the upper hand,
So who cares about what?

Speaker 1 (23:24):
And then nothing changes? Nothing change, nothing, nothing changes, nothing
has changed.

Speaker 6 (23:29):
I think there's an important point to be made there, doc,
and that's in mediation, at least in private mediation. We
don't do court ordered mediation. We only do private and
in mediation, the parties decide. And you put it perfectly,
when you enter the court system, a stranger decides.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
Who is a stranger.

Speaker 6 (23:48):
This parenting coordinator certainly wonderful person. Want to always give
shout out to the people who do this difficult work.

Speaker 5 (23:56):
But this person may not even have met your.

Speaker 4 (23:59):
John people right right, they talk to the child for
five minutes five five?

Speaker 3 (24:06):
Where do you want to go to school?

Speaker 5 (24:07):
For the kid?

Speaker 6 (24:08):
Where do you want to go to school? If you
ask the kid what do you want for dinner? They're
going to say cake and ice creamer, right, they give them.

Speaker 4 (24:14):
And ice And I was absolutely I was a little dumbfounded, Like,
since when did we let six year olds make decisions
about what's best for them?

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Right?

Speaker 4 (24:23):
But that, honestly it shows the flaws in the family
court system.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
They're overburdened.

Speaker 4 (24:29):
We know that there can be corruption, especially in small towns.
We had Christine Miller on the podcast, who is the
founder of Judge, and she's doing so much work and
exposing corruption and family court and yes, there, like you said,
there are so many systems where people are doing the
best that they can and they're honorable people. And then
there's also systems that we might see, say in central

(24:51):
or eastern Kentucky. They're very very small towns, very close
knit communities, where it's the same actors and they kind
of all know each other and they're going to attacked
each other, and so you just don't know what you're
going to get when you go into that court system.
You don't know if you're going to have a set
of actors that are honorable, reliable people, or whether you're
going to be hometowned or.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
Home cooked as they called it.

Speaker 4 (25:13):
You don't know you're putting your the most important important
thing in your life, which is your children, and then
second to that your assets and what can support you
financially in the hands of complete and total strangers, where
you are then not an active person in the process

(25:35):
at all at that point. And so mediation allows you
to be an active part of the process. So tell
us about how people can be more of an active
part of the process through mediation versus that passive part
when it gets handed over to the court system where
you are just getting reactions and judgments and decisions from
total strangers. Talk about people being active in the process

(25:56):
oring mediation absolutely.

Speaker 6 (25:59):
So Number one one is get educated. One of the
things that a lot of people don't understand. And of course,
because I in my entire career, all the cases I've had,
I can count on one hand the number of second
marriages we helped mediate their divorce. Most of the folks
who come to us this is their first marriage. They come,

(26:21):
we work with them mediate their divorce. They don't know
anything about the process, and that makes perfect sense. So
number one is get educated, be your own best friend,
be your own advocate, and one of the things that
we like to do we'll talk about, I'm sure in
a little bit. But on the Equitable Mediation website we
have a learning center and all these free resources, these
state specific guides. How does child sport work, how does

(26:43):
alimony work? How is property division? How to negotiate a
divorce course? You know all these things. Just so you
don't have to be the pro Like we talked about,
there are people like myself right who do this professionally
day in and day out. You want to work with
someone like us, However, you do want to at least
be able to talk to talk number one.

Speaker 5 (27:01):
Number two engage. So as we were talking before about
the person who sits there folds their arms and things bow.

Speaker 6 (27:08):
You don't know what's going to happen if you enter
the court system. You might think by digging in you're
going to get what you want, but surprise, surprise, it
might go against you, and wow, won't you be in trouble?
So also engage in the process. And that is, if,
for example, the mediator asks you to complete an exercise,
do it. Go, gather the financial information, review the documents

(27:30):
that have been given to you.

Speaker 5 (27:31):
Don't just have time for.

Speaker 6 (27:33):
This, then when you come into the conversation and look
who I'm talking with, professionals who are professionals in communication.
You need to be willing to shift your mindset, shift
your communication, and understand that whatever happened past tense happened.
We say mediation is a forward looking process if you

(27:54):
can put that hat on when you walk into the
mediation space and say, you know what, I am going
to a or all those terrible things you did and
all those arguments we had, because I'm here at day zero,
I want to march forward. I'm going to give you
the benefit of the doubt and I'm going to just
talk about what it is I need, I want, I feel,
and directing those comments right, changing the language instead of

(28:16):
you you you. That really helps people engage because then
it's not an argument. You can't argue with someone if
they tell you how they feel. Right, So, you know,
kind of take the temperature down. Be forward looking, be
an advocate, be engaged, and get educated. And then once
you're in there, now you're feeling empowered and having someone
like us, having a good mediator, And I'm glad you

(28:37):
had a good experience because there are a lot of
bad mediators out there, So having someone that makes you
feel heard and validated might not side with you per se.

Speaker 5 (28:47):
But yeah, you know what, I see your point. That
does make perfect sense.

Speaker 6 (28:51):
I could see why you're upset about that, getting that
getting that strength to move forward.

Speaker 5 (28:55):
So that's how it answers.

Speaker 4 (28:57):
And I think, you know, with my husband, sort of
my first husband, having you know, sort of that narcissistic personality,
it was at a point in his life where I
think his addictions had taken over and he was very,
very beaten down, and he knew that if when this
went into the hands of the court, he was going

(29:20):
to probably kind of be in trouble because of so
many things that had happened. And so I think at
the point where we got to and this was two
weeks before his death to the day we were at
the mediation table and he died of an overdose, the
one thing that I couldn't get him to agree on
was drug testing, and so that's I said, Okay, we

(29:40):
got breathalyzing, we got you know, pretty much, I was
going to have the girls almost completely. He was going
to get them four days a month, and I still
was like, no, we're gonna I'm going to go to
trial and I'm going to push for this drug testing,
but the fact that that trial just kept getting pushed
back and pushed back and all of the that happen

(30:00):
in the court system. I walked away from mediation thinking
that was the most win. I knew I was going
to get there, But I'm still going to have to
utilize the court system. And so do you ever have
cases where things just you said you had ninety eight percent?

Speaker 3 (30:16):
But are are there ever the cases.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
Where you think you come to the table and you're like, no,
I think at this point you're going to have to
take your chance at trial. Like, do you ever get
something that is so critically important that can't be resolved
where you, as the mediator are like really telling people, no,
it is the best case at this point that you

(30:38):
guys go through the family court system.

Speaker 5 (30:40):
Do you ever have a badly Yes, I do.

Speaker 6 (30:43):
I do, And people are often surprised, they're shot, what
do you mean you're the mediator?

Speaker 5 (30:48):
You have to you have to do this, right.

Speaker 6 (30:51):
What people don't understand mediation is a voluntary process. And
guess what, it's voluntary for me as well, right, So
it's and it's one of those situations where it's my house,
my rules. You don't like my rules, no problem. I
like to tell people I'm a nice guy. You know,
I'm a peacemaker. I want everybody to get along. I
want to help everyone out to my own detriment. Sometimes

(31:14):
my wife will be like, why don't you let those
folks go? Like, I know I can get them there.
I have to do this. So at the end of
the day, there are cases where I just see the
fact pattern and I'm watching how it's unfolding when I ask,
for example, there's there's a couple. There's three of them
that come to mind, and one you already touched on.

(31:35):
And I'm sorry to hear about the situation you had, Doc,
because I too have had a client die in the
middle of mediation from an overdose. Not literally at the table,
but they didn't show up for their next session. And
those those kinds of demons. So when we have someone
whose addiction is to the point where it's now interfering
with their ability to make rational decisions, that's where I

(31:57):
have to pass them on.

Speaker 5 (31:58):
And I have to.

Speaker 6 (31:58):
Say I I am not a mental health professional, not
a clinician at all, and I want to totally qualify that. However,
by my estimation, I would say twenty five percent of
our cases involve some sort of alcoholism drug addiction. And
I'm not talking person that we think about under the
bridge shooting up. I'm thinking pain pills. I'm thinking person

(32:22):
at their desk who goes out and has the three
martini lunch.

Speaker 5 (32:25):
This is these.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
Functioning individuals, individuals.

Speaker 6 (32:28):
Very functioning. So that's number one. Number two is what
we'll call financial infidelity. It's an interesting statement, however, we've
got a there's an archetype of an individual and we
see a lot more of this today when we watch
the news and we see the Jeff Bezos's and the
Mark Zuckerberg's hitting into billion trillionaires seemingly making money hand

(32:48):
over fist because they're investing in the latest, greatest thing.
And so we have some clients who said, oh, it
was a sure bet I drained our four to one
K because I really thought we were going to build
the base on Mars and I.

Speaker 5 (33:00):
Really believed in it.

Speaker 6 (33:01):
They didn't tell their spouse, So those things happen, right,
and then so you've got that situation, and then you've
got your classic hidden infidelity and where these are the
situations that are so extreme where I tend to I
tend to play dumb sometimes as a technique. I love
the phrase, help me understand. I just walked in, I

(33:26):
just walked in off the street, I just met you folks,
help me understand why X, Y Z, And a lot
of times you because as a communicator, a professional communicator,
you're listing for the patterns. You're giving enough people, You're
giving people enough sort of rope to hang themselves. They're
tripping over their words. You're just letting them walk themselves

(33:48):
into the thorn bushes, if you will. And then something
dynamic is revealed and that happens. So we'll find those patterns.
It's a very rare day where that happens. However, to
your point, I'll come along and I'll say, listen, this
is a situation where there is really a lot of
financial infidelity or impropriety or dissipation of assets.

Speaker 5 (34:10):
You're going to need the legal.

Speaker 6 (34:12):
System in order to recoup these because I just don't
see how a person with no money is going to
pay you back two hundred and fifty thousand.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
Times, right, Oh my goodness.

Speaker 6 (34:22):
Those are the situations where we get into it. And
the last thing I'll say is I do my very
best to balance the playing field when there's a power
and balance. I'm always advocating for the say, the quieter spouse,
the one who's perceived as at the disadvantage, whether it's educationally, financially, etc. Sometimes, though,

(34:45):
to your point, that narcissistic personality is just such a
know and all is just so convinced that what they
are saying is correct. And that's when I say, well,
you know what, folks, I'm not an attorney, but it
sure sounds like you are, so maybe I'll represent yourself
in court. And I think that's where this is headed.
So I'm going to just call out here. I don't

(35:06):
give up easily. I'm talking a handful of cases, maybe
two or three in my entire career with others where
I've guided them to attorneys and I've said, look, you've
made good progress on this front. Here's an issue you
really need to get involved with lawyers. I'll hand them off,
try to find mediation friendly lawyers, explain the situation, and
then you know, you need to take it from here.

(35:28):
So there's a lot of interesting things that happen with
people that that was you don't see on the surface.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yeah, I was actually going to ask you if you
ever see the opposite where because it is so peaceful
coming in with a couple. Do you ever see couples
get back together?

Speaker 6 (35:44):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (35:44):
Occasionally, rarely, occasionally, Yeah, sometimes we've had We've had one
in the middle of mediation.

Speaker 6 (35:50):
Sometimes folks do say wow, it's sometimes it's a process.
So we know, for example, the prospect person who calls
and lead a voicemail at one in the morning, I
need to see you tomorrow. I'm not calling you back.
I'm so sorry, you're probably drunk, it's late. I'm not
calling you back. You don't want a divorce. You just

(36:11):
had to fight the folks who come in and then
been thinking about it for a while. Certainly the folks
who sometimes come in because they're so frustrated. And I
know this speaks to exactly what you two do. We
sometimes are in agreement, yet because and I use the example,
one of us speech speaks French and the other one
speaks German, we just don't understand each other, even though

(36:32):
we're saying the exact same thing. So when they get
into mediation and you get someone like me asking questions
and saying, I don't know you guys, but it sounds
like you're in agreement on how to handle this, or
I'm here, Okay, you're saying it one way and you're
saying it the other way, but I'm hearing the same
thing here, Am I mistaken?

Speaker 5 (36:51):
And then they kind of step back and they're like,
I said, maybe you might want to consider some counselor
or some coaching.

Speaker 6 (36:57):
Or stuff, because if we all have to work on
our own selves, that's a lot of what I think
people fail to realize is that when you're working with
a partner, you're bringing your own set of baggage in
here and so well.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
And I thought that, yeah, I think that this is
why I asked that question, because this, this collaboration between
you two is so important because I think what Doc
sees a lot are people who come in trying to
save their marriage. But she may look at them and
be like, hey, it's time for a divorce, right, and
then she can push she can push those people to you,

(37:32):
Whereas on your end of things, within your practice, you
may see people that aren't quite ready to get a
divorce and may just need some coaching or counseling or
therapy and then you can push them to DOC. So
it's sort of this perfect collab where you guys can
really help each other based on the direction that the

(37:52):
people may need to go. And I know that DOC
works with you know some higher stakes clients that you know, finances,
I'm in deploy a lot finances or.

Speaker 6 (38:02):
Yeah, there's a lot of stake. Yeah, yeah, person, you
say to yourself, why not take the chance? Right, you've
done You've done this thing where you've stood up in
front of your friends and family, or maybe you've done
it at the city hall wherever you've gone. You have
somehow made some statement that says I profess my love
or my commitment or whatever it is to you other individual.

(38:23):
And we've worked hard, and we've gone through this process
and heck, nobody there's no instruction manual on how to
be married when we get married. I think someone said
to me once. You know that it was a totally
offhanded comment, and you know how it resonates and it
sticks in your craw and then it sits there and
you going wow, said you know, it's really easy.

Speaker 5 (38:43):
To get married, but it's really hard to get divorced.
I think it should be the other way around.

Speaker 6 (38:48):
Oh it's a great point, right, and make it hard
to get married. So you know what you're up against.
You know you have to go to counseling right out
of the gate. People only want to fix things that
are broken. Why not set a good foundation, right and
and build on that rather than saying, which stumbled along,
we got in these unhealthy patterns we can't get out of.

Speaker 4 (39:10):
Up we're going oers right, Yeah, and yeah, I agree
one hundred percent. I mean I think even like I
have this in the back of my mind and maybe
I shouldn't say it out loud somebody will steal my idea.
But I almost want to create like a dating app
where people are assessed for like their attachment and like
and then like there's compatibility there, right, So like it's like, oh,

(39:34):
you're not ready to date. You've got some major insecurities.
You need to go through this coaching program first. So
you need to go through this counting program first, some
kind of program, right that actually gets to the heart
of your issues that, let's face it, those issues don't
show up until later. Dating phases are usually magical, and

(39:56):
then it's when attachment takes place, and then people are
too afraid to face the pain of detachment that we
see people's attachment wounds really start to elevate and show
up in their relationship. And then sometimes, and actually a
lot of times, this doesn't show up in full force
until people are married because maybe they're not super insecure,

(40:18):
but their insecurities really start to bounce off of each
other once that marriage dynamic takes place. Because marriage is
such a profound step where people feel a little bit trapped,
a little bit stuck, especially more avoidant people, that marriage
itself is a huge trigger for them, and so the
full effect of their avoidance doesn't really come out until

(40:39):
after marriage. And so how can we get people to
recognize their issues before they take this big step, before
they end up at your table for example?

Speaker 3 (40:50):
That's just something that goes through.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
It's our new long term goal.

Speaker 4 (40:54):
Okay, yeah, somebody's going to be like yeah, yeah, somebody's
already going to start accept Yeah they don't really a
lot of people don't understand attachment.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
Right, so they won't be able to I do want
to go back and revisit the question just about you know,
your personal journey and how you got to this point
in your your career and wanting to help people.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
So let's just if you're comfortable talking about that, of course, Okay.

Speaker 6 (41:17):
Great, absolutely, So I am a child of a litigated divorce,
so I know of what I speak. I can bring that,
you know, that experience to the table. And before when
you asked me about how you keep people at the table,
one of the things I'll say to folks is if
you don't think it can happen to you, take a

(41:38):
look at me. I am the example of what happens
when your folks litigate your divorce. So my mom dad,
they went through a pattern where they were volatile. They
were kerosene in a match. They were that kind of
mix Mom's Italian, dad's Irish two very calm wow yoh,
mellow backgrounds, you know, just really laid back people and

(42:00):
only fine and so sarcasmo are in case the listeners.

Speaker 4 (42:04):
Can't see you, Oh, I'm watching I'm watching Boardwalk Empire
right now, and it's all about like Italian mob and
like Irish mob, and like the strong personalities of like
those two things merging. So I'm picking up on what
you're putting down with that, right, And.

Speaker 6 (42:20):
So they would go For first, it would be a day,
then it would be a week, then it would be
a month, and it would be months where they wouldn't talk.
They'd have these epic blowouts and then silence. As an individual,
as a kid growing up, what you learned is, Wow,
conflict is bad. It leads to silence, It separates people.
And that really had a mark on me, so my

(42:43):
my role and my philosophy. As when I say a peacemaker,
if someone said, how would you describe yourself in one word,
I'd say peacemaker.

Speaker 5 (42:51):
It's because I know what those.

Speaker 6 (42:53):
Lasting effects can be on both the adults and the child.
I learned, wow, we don't talk one, we have a problem,
we avoid each other. So I did a lot of
work myself to flip that script around. Now I see
it a lot in my profession. However, one thing that
I think was most impactful for me is we were

(43:13):
talking about going to court. Now, apparently these days, about
two percent of cases actually wind up in litigation, So
statistically it's shown that very few actually make it to
in front of a judge. Because there are a lot
of these preemptive programs, right parenting coordinators in New Jersey,
we have what's called an early settlement panel, where there's
three individuals who will basically make a ruling that they

(43:35):
recommend to the judge who probably will take the ruling.
So in my experience growing up as a child of divorce,
my folks were arguing over who was going to pay
for me to go to college. Now, at the time,
my mom had just gotten a part time job. She
was inside the home with me until I was eleven,
and now I'm a teenager, I'm getting to that place
applying to colleges, and my dad wanted to share fifty

(43:56):
to fifty. Well, at that time, he probably made about
ten times more than my mom did.

Speaker 5 (44:01):
Probably even more.

Speaker 6 (44:02):
And so they went to court, and my mom thought
it would be a great idea to put me in
a suit, sit me in the back of the courtroom
so that the judge could see my face and put
the name in the face and the good grades and
all of that stuff together. And I sat there and
watched them go back and forth and scream and yell,
and it was so strange because I'm watching my dad

(44:26):
and he's getting madder and madder, and he's starting to
yell at.

Speaker 5 (44:30):
The judge, and you know, I don't know much about judges,
but they don't like it when you yell at him.
So I learned lesson. So the judge says, mister Dylan,
I'm now I'm going to make it sixty forty that
you're going to pay sixty forty. And my father is like, now,
he's just incensed.

Speaker 6 (44:48):
And the judge says he's banging the gavel the whole thing,
and he's like.

Speaker 5 (44:52):
Now it's seventy thirty.

Speaker 6 (44:53):
So now my dad actually physically gets up, his lawyer
grabs him, bailiff is coming over. I'm s in the
back watching this whole thing, and the judge says, would
you like to try for eighteen twenty? And he's literally
being like restrained and I'm.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Laughing only now only that's that's.

Speaker 6 (45:12):
Up right, And so that's what you're thinking to yourself.
You're like wow. And then we went out into the hall.
My mom and my dad, I guess, were just doing
their last little ted of ted arguing there and I'm
just standing there thinking, man, when can I get this
tie off my neck? Because I'm, you know, fifteen or sixteen.
And that was the last I ever saw of my
father was in the Hall of the courtroom, didn't hear

(45:33):
from him. I got a letter, I think maybe one
or two letters from him saying he was getting remarried.
And then the last letter I got from him, well
not from him, but from his lawyer his estate. He
had died in twenty nineteen, so I simply got a
very lovely form letter that said, we're required to inform you.
You know your father's passed away. You have any questions,

(45:56):
contact our office. So that was a thirty five year
span and that was it. So I tell folks, I'm like,
guess what that can happen to you. It happened to me.
Pop quiz. Do you want that for your kids?

Speaker 5 (46:08):
I sure hope the answers yea.

Speaker 4 (46:11):
I have so many clients with such a similar story
that you know, and every time I hear it, I'm thinking,
oh my goodness. You know, people don't understand the lasting
attachment trauma that that creates, and how much work that
child is going to have to do to undo these

(46:33):
blueprints right of what it means to be close to someone,
what marriage means, what intimacy means, and to see it
play out in such a dysfunctional manner, it's just heartbreaking.
And I'm really sorry that you had to go through that.
And I think what a full circle, you know, like
the moment, like life decisions gorgeous, Yeah, to get into

(46:58):
this perfect to make sure that people don't have to
experience that type of trauma and heartbreak.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
Well, and it's sad because you know, I'm sure both
of your parents were in the wrong in those situations
in certain circumstances. But what is so sad and heartbreaking
or one of the saddest parts about it is that
your dad thought.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
The easier route out was just to never see you again.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
And that is really really heart wrenching, you know, and
and when I have, you know, not knowing your father,
but I'm sure that that's not really what he wanted.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
And it does sound like it sounds like a coward.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
Move to make that decision, but maybe he just felt
so defeated, right, He felt so defeated in the moment
and felt so wronged in the moment that he felt like, well,
I'm waving the white flag of surrender here and I'll
just choose to never see my son again.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
And I'm sure, in fact, I know that this still happened.

Speaker 4 (47:57):
It does my husband's literal best friend is in this
exact same situation. He was in the army with my husband.
He had a lot of PTSD, got married very young,
and he was the best man at our wedding just
a few years ago. And then he entered the divorce
process with his wife. He started drinking again. Drinking was

(48:20):
a huge issue for him, and he had been sober
for a really long time and just went down the
alcohol rabbit hole. I think their major mental health issues
started coming up because of the excessive drinking, and.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
He basically just pieced out on his kids.

Speaker 4 (48:34):
And he's living in another state and he is fully
convinced that his kids are better off without him. And
knowing their mom, she's such a great mom. She's an
amazing mother. She does such a she's a business owner,
she does great for herself. But my heart breaks for
her children because no matter how good of a mother
she is, they are going to feel the effects of

(48:55):
that father abandonment and there's nothing she can do to fully,
you know, mitigate that in any way. And she's, like
I said, she's a wonderful mother and she has great kids.
Her kids are doing are doing well, but they hurt,
you know, and we know that they hurt, and and

(49:17):
that's just that it's just unacceptable at every level that
you you have those beliefs that somehow your kids are
going to be better off without you. I think the
the healthy mindset is I got to do whatever it
takes to become someone that can be a healthy role
model and a healthy engaged parent.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Just parenting is sacrificial, it is and and it's very sacrificial,
and we don't always get what we want. A lot
of times we don't get what we want as parents.
But I think the beauty of your testimony is that
you real life experience. You've got a great education. You
graduate from Yale correct.

Speaker 6 (49:55):
Drexel in my undergrad but my mediation train is Harvard
in Northwestern.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
You've got so much, so much credibility when it comes
pretty good when it comes to your education. But more importantly,
you have credibility when it comes to personal experience.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
And that is the best. It's the best.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
And so I think for our listeners, just to wrap
this up, I think that you know, if you are
in the midst of of you know, a divorce or
on the verge of a divorce, and it can be peaceful.
You know Joe and his team at Equable Equitable Mediation, right,
is the name of your business, would be a great resource,

(50:35):
and just I want just to wrap things up, tell
people where else they can find you, and then talk
a little bit about those resources that are available on
your website.

Speaker 6 (50:46):
Certainly, So best place is our website exactly, That's where
we would tell everyone to start. It's Equitablemediation dot com.
So you have to be careful because sometimes people spelt meditation,
so I just want to point.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
That out, correct.

Speaker 5 (51:00):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 6 (51:01):
We get a lot of spam for yoga studios, so
it's really strange. But it's Equitable Mediation dot com. And
there's up on the menu. You'll see it's called the
Learning Center. When you click that, it's going to bring
you to a host of resources and they're all tagged
out by various categories. Ebooks, blog posts, podcasts, videos. We
have some paid courses, some free courses, resources, and.

Speaker 5 (51:22):
Really we feel the more you can get.

Speaker 6 (51:25):
Educated and I was talking about books, right, We're firm
believers in this, the more you can educate yourself. You
don't have to do it yourself, right. We just like
when we talk about if you have a leaky sink.
You want to know where the leak is coming from.
But you're not going to get under there, at least
I'm not because I can't do blumbing. But you're going
to want to learn. Okay, what is it going to
take to get through this process? And a lot of
that stuff is free available. You can just go read it,

(51:47):
download it, whatever you do. And we just feel we've
always been doing that. You know, we've had a million
visitors to our website, We've had you been doing this
for seventeen years, and it's always been with that one
mantra in mind. I remember my mom, you know, when
she got divorced, there was no Internet, there was no Google,
and she had to rely on her lawyers. She had
to ask her friends who gave her advice air quotes sure,

(52:09):
who were not lawyers. But we want to give you
information from a reliable source. Go out there, take as
much as you can, take as much as you need,
and if you are so inclined, there's a button up
there that's us talk to us, and you click that,
you'll get in touch with my partner, who's my wife, Cheryl,
she's our divorce coach, and you'll talk to her, see

(52:30):
if mediation is right, see if we can help, and
you know, we're always happy to answer questions.

Speaker 5 (52:35):
Right, it's a free call.

Speaker 6 (52:36):
You can always just reach out to her and if
you're a good fit for mediation, great, and if not,
we'll be honest with you. We want you to get
the best result in your situation. It might not mean
working with us. We don't want to prolong your pain
any longer than it has to be, So just reach
out if we can help, happy to do so, or
guide you to.

Speaker 5 (52:53):
Someone who can.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
So Yeah, that's amazing.

Speaker 4 (52:55):
I think this actually felt very healing for me to
know that there are people and there are resources that
can help you have an amicable divorce and can help
you really truly do what's best for your child, because
we have shown you the other side of it through
family Court in our Family Court series of just what

(53:18):
a gamble it can be, both in my personal experience
and the experience of people that I have been close to,
as I mentioned on this podcast, and how how brutal
it can be if you end up in the family
court system. And so if there is a way around that,
take it, take it. And so thank you so much,
Joe for coming on our podcast and for telling us

(53:39):
that there can be a softer and more collaborative side
of divorce and.

Speaker 3 (53:43):
How you help people achieve that. We really appreciate your time.

Speaker 5 (53:46):
Yes, so thank you, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
So please go check out Joe and his wife Cheryl
at Equitable Mediation dot com and of course, while you're there,
check out the lovedoc dot com see all of doctor
Hensley's services there. For our listeners, we offer a special
promo code love Doc twenty seven for twenty seven percent
off all of doctor Hinsley's coaching programs, her courses, and

(54:09):
her hybrid group program. And until next time, peace, love
and perspective