May 8, 2025 • 41 mins
Co-Host Adam Darrow (https://mountaintoppodcast.com/risk) My first-time guest Adam Darrow has always been a thrill-seeking risk taker. Early on, that meant participating in extreme sports, of course. But not until he met ONE woman in particular did he ever consider dating and relating to women an extreme sport unto itself. She made it very clear that she was not the kind of woman who wanted to settle down with one man. That led to a path of sexual discovery for Adam that would make Mickey Rourke's character in 9 1/2 Weeks jealous. So who was this woman, and what made her so tantalizingly different? And how did Adam's response to her--and what she offered--differ from most guys who might dream about finding a chick and getting into 'The Lifestyle' with her? When Adam's new girlfriend was quite public about their non-monogamous relationship, how did Adam's family and friends respond? And did he care? How did this new relationship affect his masculinity? Well, given they got married and stayed together for over ten years, you can already sense how amazing the story of this adventure is going to get. What happened when Adam entered the 'underground' sex society of New York City, and what was that like? Were there any pitfalls or was it all pleasure? How did Adam feel about sharing his girl with other men...even in real time? Is desiring and living such a lifestyle a matter of nature or nurture? And is there such thing as 'cheating' is a completely open relationship? Is monogamous intimacy overrated? Can you go back to monogamy after extreme non-monogamy, even if you want to? Ultimately, would Adam recommend a non-monogamous lifestyle? These are some powerful questions amidst one of the most shocking episodes in recent memory, but it all made for a great episode. Check in with the latest Masterclass For Men and more at: https://mountaintoppodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Live from the mist-enshrouded mountaintop fortress that is X&Y Communications Headquarters,
you're listening to the World Famous Mountaintop Podcast. And now, here's your host, Scot McKay.
Greetings, gentlemen. Welcome to yet another episode of the World Famous Mountaintop Podcast.
As always, I am your host, Scott McKay. Scott with one T, that is. That was my nickname,
(00:28):
actually, in junior high, much to my own chagrin. But anyway, on to the social media information.
I am, indeed, at scottmckay on X, on YouTube, on True Social, and on TikTok. And you can find me
at realscottmckay on both threads and on Instagram. But like I've said before, you're not going to find
(00:49):
me on threads too much because that place is just a cesspool. I mean, good grief. I hope you guys
aren't using threads, actually. The Facebook group is Mountaintop Summit, as always. And the
website is mountaintoppodcast.com. Gentlemen, I'm excited. I'm pumped. I'm stoked for this show
today. I've got a new friend. We've been chatting for a while before we clicked record on this
(01:10):
particular episode. His name is Adam Darrow from Brooklyn, New York, although he spends his winters
in Boulder, Colorado, lucky bastard, which is where he is skiing and snowboarding and doing all
sorts of extreme sports, like I am also jealous of him doing. His book is called Seek the Risk,
go figure, which you could find on Amazon at mountaintoppodcast.com, front slash Amazon,
(01:32):
of course. And his website is seektherisk.net. And I don't know if this has directly to do with
risk taking or not. I guess we'll find out together. But the topic du jour is one we've
been meaning to cover for a long time, and I just have to have the right guest. And the topic is
non-monogamy, which is a pretty broad topic with a lot of number of broads, I'm sure.
(01:55):
So what Adam says is that he had a journey he took into non-monogamy, and that is the conversation
starter wherever he goes, but probably not church. Adam, how are you doing, man? Good
to have you on the show. Thanks. Thanks for the intro, Scott. It's good to be here.
Yeah, man. That was probably a little bit wackier an intro than I've done in weeks or months.
(02:20):
But hey, this is not a conventional topic. Define non-monogamy. What are we going to
talk about today? Oh, well, non-monogamy at its root level just means not having
one sexual partner. And there are many different facets of it, but at the root level, it means
not one life, one wife. It means there's flexibility in the number of either sexual
(02:44):
or emotional partners you have, depending on how you practice the non-monogamy.
Okay, perfect. That's what I was hoping you'd say. So in other words, we're not talking about
just being swingers. We can be talking about anything polyamorous up to and including,
well, dating more than one woman at a time and doing the wild thing with more than one
woman at a time in your life. Or having a harem of loyal girlfriends. Or if you can, sure.
(03:09):
If you can. Or other dudes. Or dudes, whatever you're into. It can be bisexual,
heterosexual, whatever. So I guess the best place to continue after we've defined the term that
we're going to be referring to again and again in the show is tell us a little bit about this journey.
Right. So I came out of college and I was like a lot of typical young men now to prove myself and
(03:31):
got into the world of extreme sports, but then into business. And through all that time, I had
lots of different girlfriends. And I had an image of, and we all tell stories about who we are,
and I had an image of myself of being this wild and crazy guy. I had a lot of sexual experiences.
I had some threesomes and such with my girlfriends and thought that I was badass. And then I met a
(03:56):
woman who sort of blew everything I thought about female sexuality and male sexuality
and relationships away. I met a woman who totally blew me away.
All in one convenient package. The male sexuality, the female sexuality, all of it.
She got me to question everything. But I met her at a dinner party at my house of all places. A
friend brought her. And she's Eastern European. She was model gorgeous. She was getting a PhD from
(04:21):
an Ivy League university. Speak in five different languages.
And had that accent.
And had that incredible accent. And just stunningly beautiful. And I was blown away by her.
We got to know each other and started hanging out and then started hooking up a little bit.
And I realized very quickly that she was someone who did not play by the rules. I don't know if
(04:47):
rules is the right word. But didn't paint within the lines of sexuality. And she was very clear
about that as well. And as we got close, she was like, look, I'm not the kind of girl who has a
boyfriend. But I was falling for this woman. Because every other part of her was amazing.
And we had the best time together. And as our spending time together got into a relationship,
she was like, look, I only do non-monogamy. And you're going to have to be cool with the
(05:11):
fact that I'm going to sleep with whoever I want to, whenever I want to.
I'm happy to have you as a boyfriend. But that's the only way I do relationships.
And that was sort of presented to me. And I was a little bit taken back, as I think most people
would be. But I started thinking about it. And I was like, okay, this sounds interesting. It's
terrifying to me. But I kind of like scary things. The book parallels my life in extreme sports and
(05:40):
this extreme relationship. And I started seeing how similar and how I had to learn how to control
the emotions in both of them the same way. So that's how it all started. I was presented with
a choice. And I decided to take that choice. Yeah, I think amongst the rule players who indeed
color within the lines in this society, the euphemism for her would be a free spirit.
(06:02):
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, she was, yeah, about as free a spirit as you can imagine.
Okay. You know, it's interesting. A lot of guys think they want to date lots of women. A lot of
guys fantasize about being a swinger and living the lifestyle. But really, perhaps immaturely,
they're thinking about it from the standpoint of what they're going to gain from it. Like,
(06:22):
man, I get to have a wife and then bang a bunch of other chicks on the side.
And when the reality strikes and they're at a swinger club and they watch some guy pegging
their wife, all of a sudden everything changes. It's almost like Mike Tyson. Everybody's got
to plan until they get punched in the face. It sort of feels like that.
Exactly. Yeah.
Exactly. And my experience actually took it one step beyond that. So she's a sex educator.
(06:49):
She's a psychologist and a relationship coach. And she was very public about her life. So not only
was I entering into a situation like the one you described, but also she was very public.
She was also very clear this, look, if we're going to date, everyone's going to know that we're
non-monogamous because I believe in broadcasting my sexuality because I'm here to help women
(07:12):
expand their own sexuality and I lead by example. So when we originally started dating,
she announced on Facebook, hey, Adam and I are in an open relationship. And my world absolutely
turned upside down when that happened. All my friends, family were like, what are you doing?
And my masculinity suffered. It was unbelievable.
(07:32):
Oh, wow. Everybody's like, what are you doing, step bro?
Because it's funny when everyone first met her, everyone was like, oh my God, Adam hit the
jackpot. It was incredible. And then when- I didn't know you'd hit the jackpots, plural.
I guess so. And then when this thing happened on Facebook, what was interesting to me is not only
did my masculinity suffer in the eyes of other people, also her value of a woman went down as
(07:57):
well. I was seeing a side of life that I was blown away by it. All of a sudden she was like a slut.
No, she's not worth- she's not marriage material anymore. She just likes casual sex. And people
were calling me a sissy man because I think my best friend was like, you let your woman fuck
other men? And I was like, I don't let her fuck other men any more than I let her be female.
(08:21):
That's just who she is. And so there was the initial baseball bat to the face, if you will,
about getting into this. That's even worse than a Mike Tyson punch, man.
That could kill a brother, that baseball bat. But it was interesting. It was a huge growth
period for me because all of a sudden I started realizing how much I was basing my own masculinity
(08:41):
on all these external forces. So it caused me a lot of introspection, which then carried over into
once I did have to watch my wife getting fucked by other men.
So you married this woman?
We actually got married. Yeah, we got married a few years later.
You dropped the W word there, man.
Yeah, wife. Yeah, she became my wife. And we were together 10 years. And it was after that I was
(09:06):
talking with a buddy of mine who was starting to go down the non-monogamy road. And I told him
everything that went through. And he's a writer. And he was like, dude, you need to write that
story down. It's unbelievably intense.
It's like Hank Moody stuff there.
I wish I knew who that was.
Oh, the lead character in Californication.
Yeah, people have told me I need to watch that show.
Yeah. It sounds like something he'd write in one of his fictional, fictional books.
(09:30):
Got it.
Anyway, it's very fascinating. You would say that you felt your masculinity was being stretched
and strained by this experience as people found out about it. I mean, the slut shaming towards her
is largely to be expected.
Sure. Yep.
We're not past that in society yet. But it seems like it's super macho to have a chick who'll
(09:53):
introduce you to other chicks and you bang her buddies and she's bringing people home and you're
having all this sex. So you must have had some straight laced friends that were like, bro,
is that what was going on here?
Well, yes, there was a lot. I mean, there's no question that I had an incredible sex life
being with this woman. But it was the idea of her being with other men that was a bridge too far
(10:17):
for a lot of my friends and even my family. They were cool with her bringing a girlfriend over for
us to have a threesome with. But as soon as they're like, wait, she's out fucking other guys
on her own, that was like, whoa, no, no, no, no, no. That's too much. So if it had only been
her bringing friends over, yeah, I think I probably would have been a hero in a lot of
the bro's eyes. But that's not what she was about.
(10:42):
If this is Siam or the top copy in Istanbul, Turkey, then having a bunch of women licking
each other all the time till you're ready for one or two of them at a time is fine. Just
it can't be a sausage party.
Exactly.
Yeah, that's probably, ironically enough, a more conventional viewpoint towards potential
non-monogamy than one would probably think. That's how we imagine it. I'm the king of Siam.
(11:04):
I'm King Solomon from the Bible, and I have a harem of 157 women and counting,
and I just get to pick whichever two or three I can handle at once in one night.
I don't care if they lick each other, have a bunch of eunuchs guarding them. They don't
have balls anyway, who cares? But when it comes to other dudes who can jackalode on them,
(11:26):
forget about it.
Forget about it. Yeah, so there was that.
I want all the babies to be mine, selfishly.
Yeah.
Well, what about that? Lots of birth control?
Well, yes, obviously, there's a lot in that world. And what was that world? She pulled
me into the underground sex world of New York City, and I saw a side of New York I
(11:46):
did not know existed. But yes, there's a lot.
That sounds like gonorrhea waiting to happen, though.
Believe it or not, when people are very deliberate about their sexuality at sex parties and such,
everyone is tested, everyone's practicing safe sex. It's a remarkably
educated crowd. You'd be surprised. No, I was like-
(12:07):
Kind of like porn.
You know, in some way, I think so. Yeah. It was surprisingly safe.
You know, I have to ask this question. It's a small world, although there's 8 billion
people in it. But I've had like five women who fit the description of who you're talking about
on this show as guests. And by the way, they're always fantastic guests, real crowd pleasers.
(12:27):
Has she ever been on this show?
I don't think so.
Okay, that's probably better for all of us. Let's keep it anonymous.
I mean, her name is Jane in the book. All names are changed in the book for obvious reasons.
But I don't know if she's been on your podcast or not.
Yeah, we've had like five or six Eastern European sex goddesses who-
(12:47):
Yeah, there's a lot of them.
Incredibly glib about talking about screwing, and the guys just love them. Some of them,
I don't care what they're talking about. They could be talking about avionics or something,
for all I care.
That accent.
Yeah, right. With that accent, I could listen to them read the phone book.
And everyone asks me, who is it? And I go, oh, come on. You don't know? It's Esther Perel.
That's who it was.
(13:10):
Sure.
Eastern European sex educator, PhD. Fits the description.
It's Dr. Ruth.
Dr. Ruth.
Yeah, she's dead now, right?
Yeah, bless her heart. She's a sweetie. She died at a ripe old age. She was late 90s.
Yeah. So 10 years with this woman, were the two of you non-monogamous immediately,
(13:34):
and to the extent that you eventually were relatively quickly? Or was there an evolution
to how much you were introduced to, and how much you felt like you could handle along the way?
Yeah. So yes, there was a bit of an evolution, but we were non-monogamous from the beginning.
When we met, she was still at school, getting her PhD, and I was in New York. So we only saw
(13:56):
each other every other weekend. So I basically was like, whatever you're doing at school,
when I'm not there, that's great. I don't want to know about it. It was sort of like a don't ask,
don't tell thing. And then after she graduated, and she moved in, then I traveled a lot for work.
So I was like, look, can you just keep your extracurriculars to when I travel? And if I'm
(14:18):
going to play around, I'll do it while I travel. And then when I'm home, we would play together
with other people. So I never really had to deal with it right in front of me initially.
But then over time, she wanted to start relaxing those rules, because to her, her sexuality was a
very important part of who she was. And if she was hiding it from me, she kind of felt like
we weren't as close as we should be for people that were living together and now married.
(14:42):
So slowly, she started opening up about the kind of sex she was having with other guys. So I was
listening to it, which was incredibly difficult for me, until eventually we started relaxing the
rules more. And then by the end of our marriage, she was going on dates while I was home and
sometimes even bringing a guy home and such. So yeah, there was definitely an evolution.
(15:02):
What I would say to all those guys who were shaming you and your masculinity is, yeah,
I wonder if they're honeys to kind of whack them over the head with a rolling pin if they catch
them watching porn. Right. Yeah, more of a traditional 1950s marriage kind of thing.
Yeah, I mean, they're probably so hamstrung in their sexuality with this one woman that
they probably can't think aloud about anything different. You know, meanwhile,
(15:24):
there's something wrong with you. Why not live and let live, you know?
Yeah, absolutely. And I will say that for my close friends who judged me harshly initially,
they're my close friends, because I know they're good people, and they're smart people. And
they all came around. In fact, one of them who really judged me-
Joined the party. He came over and he banged your wife.
They didn't come around that much. One of them who judged me really harshly for the choices once
(15:49):
it became public, you know, what Jane was doing, almost when I started writing the book and we were
out skiing together once, he said, look, I want you to know that I actually think you're a far
stronger man than I am for doing what you did and how you did it. And I'm really impressed. And
that's 15 years later. But people, there was a lot of the masculinity thing was a big deal for me.
(16:11):
And it seems that this actually showed me being a pretty strong man to a lot
of people in the end. And that was great. Adam, why do you think more people don't
embrace this kind of sexual lifestyle? Is it because of nature or nurture?
You know, it's funny because Jane actually was a sex scientist and a sex educator. And so we
(16:33):
talked about this a lot. And in the scientific community, there's a lot of debate about that.
And I also want to be clear. The book is neither a celebration nor a cautionary tale about
non-monogamy. It's just a story. And so I don't have a good answer for your question,
other than some people it works for and some people it doesn't. You know, I wouldn't recommend
non-monogamy, but I wouldn't recommend monogamy either. You just decide what problems you want
(16:56):
because you're going to have them either way. So I don't know if it's nature or nurture. I think
I'm an adventure-seeking kind of person. So having a little excitement in my life
meant that I was a little more attuned to it. Now, the non-monogamy I did with Jane was something
I never want to do that again. That was crazy. But, you know, a little flexibility here and there
is kind of interesting to me. And I think a lot of people would sort of fall into that
(17:18):
kind of idea that they're monogamous with a partner in terms of their emotion, but, you know,
maybe a little something on the side now and again to keep things spicy wouldn't be a terrible idea.
Well, the one thing that happens in a situation such as you're describing is there's really
little margin for calling somebody a cheater. You have truly an open relationship. You can
(17:40):
do whatever you want sexually. And when we talk about cheating on someone, let's face it,
99.9% of the time it's something sexual. The breach was sexual. I mean, I guess you could
cheat on someone by spending all their money and pretending you didn't and hiding the records or
something. But whenever we talk about someone having cheated on their spouse,
(18:01):
the knee-jerk reaction is somebody screwed someone on the side.
Right. In the book, I talk about trust violation, not cheating, right? Did someone violate the other
person's trust? And that can be about anything. It can be about sex. It can be about money. So
it takes it more to that space. When you have an open relationship, what's cheating is if you've
violated someone's trust. So it's not that cheating's gone. It's just it's sort of a
(18:24):
little different. That's all. Well, you know, in the modern Judeo-Christian tradition,
it's one man, one woman, although the Old Testament is replete with examples of non-monogamy
and even stealing other people's wife and God blessing the guy for it in the case of King David,
famously, of course. Nowadays, it seems like we have a very strict definition of what's proper
(18:51):
and what's not when it comes to human sexual relationships. And all of it is kind of debatable.
But here we are. And anytime, even if you're dating more than one woman at once,
you probably don't want to tell your parents about it.
Yeah. You know, your grandma asks you at Thanksgiving, so do you have a girlfriend?
(19:13):
Yeah, actually, Nana, I have 16 of them. And, you know, sometimes three a day. You know,
you just don't blurt that across the table, you know, while you're eating pumpkin pie.
So meanwhile, I got a guy's fantasize about this. There's a lot of porn about this. And porn is
purely fantasy, of course. And like, I'm not sure most men would actually sign up to be male
(19:39):
strippers and have 45 women sucking their dicks while they're the only ones being naked. But it
sure seems like a nice fantasy. But in reality, most of us would quiver and fall apart under
such circumstances. But you have a situation where people will judge you and people don't
want to be judged. And we tell ourselves, this isn't how I was designed. I was designed by
(20:02):
God Almighty himself. You know, imagine Billy Graham saying it, to be one man with one woman.
And guys take great pride in saying, I'm a one woman man, you know, and wives take great pride
in having a relationship that's rock solid with their husband. So many marriages fall apart
because people literally can't hold it together. Right? You can't hold it together. So it falls
(20:24):
apart, go figure. But whether that's innately in us or something we've been socialized to accept
really is a big question. Because everybody has a prurient fascination with what you've got going on.
About 10 years ago, thrupling was a thing. You know, I have basically three wives and I have
(20:44):
children by all of them. And these guys are appearing on the Today Show. I even had one
of them on my show, you know, to talk about it. And they all broke up. And now that same guy's
with one woman, you know what I mean? But he's got four baby mamas. And so basically it just ends up
looking old school in retrospect. You know, I have four kids I'm paying child support for by four
(21:06):
different women. You know, next thing you know, you look more like Sean Kemp from the NBA instead
of some non-monogamy hero. So I think it's really a good question whether it's in our being,
either archetypally or even genetically versus something we can kind of train ourselves to
accept. And the reason why I think that's a really poignant question is because it seems like you
(21:27):
weren't naturally bent towards being monogamous. And yet this woman came along and I don't want
to say talked you into it. She probably was very convincing. But there you were.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I thought I was pretty wild and crazy because I'd had
a couple of threesomes.
Well, you know what my problem with threesomes is? Maybe you've had better luck than me.
(21:50):
Okay.
But I have a type. I'm probably borderline demisexual. In other words,
only certain women do it for me. And every time, every time, and it isn't just a couple of times
I've ever been presented with a threesome, the other chick just awkwardly didn't do it for me.
And I refused it. And it wasn't she was ugly. It's just that-
(22:10):
Yes, yeah. It wasn't your type.
There's no way I'm going to give both of them the same attention. I'd really just rather
have you and maybe you can spectate or something. I don't know.
Assess. Give the assist.
Whatever. But the threesome thing, it seems like if you can find a porn movie where there's two of
them that look exactly the way you like it, and let's face it, I mean, unless they're really
(22:32):
kinky, you're not going to find twin sisters who are doing the threesome. That's incestuous. That's
really weird. But the reality of threesomes in real life is not what you see in porn.
Now, I think porn can be very indicative of the kind of sex you have in real life,
even though some people will say none of it is. I think those people are probably just
(22:53):
very judgmental towards it. But the threesome thing, the monogamy thing, sometimes it's
overwhelming. Sometimes it's disappointing. Sometimes it doesn't go the way you want it
to go. And the more people you have involved, the more margin for error there is. So, I mean,
what are the pitfalls of living this lifestyle from that perspective?
(23:14):
I mean, it's like anything else. You take risks and you seek the risk. You try something and
sometimes it doesn't always work out great, but that's okay. If it didn't work out great,
you think about, okay, why didn't it work out great? Did I say yes just because I wanted to
do it, yet I wasn't that into the person and that's why? Or what were the other reasons why
(23:34):
it didn't work out? I've had numbers of threesomes that, yeah, that wasn't so good. That didn't go
well. But then I've had a number of them that were absolutely amazing and mind-numbing nights.
Just like climbing a mountain, some big great mountain adventure, just an incredible night.
It's you have to take the good with the bad. Porn makes it seem like every sexual experience is
(23:57):
the be-all and end-all, and that's just not reality.
Yeah, especially anal sex. I mean, you've got to clean yourself out or you're going to have a mess.
There's ways around that, I think.
Well, there's ways around that if you prepare.
Right.
Anyway, by the way, if you don't like my line of questioning, I'm anti-fragile. Just tell me to
go screw myself.
No, please. There's no topic that I'm... Let me tell you, the book is about as salacious as
(24:21):
you can imagine, dives deep into my own psyche and all the challenges that I had to go through
in terms of my masculinity and the jealousy and all that. I've already laid it out there.
You're not going to go too far with me.
Okay. Well, on that note, here's a truly salacious question that I think a lot of guys would really
(24:41):
like for me to ask. Non-monogamy. Okay. A lot of guys have become heroes in the pickup community,
right? I'm thinking of guys like David Shade and a guy named Stefan Heman from years ago who
set the world on fire with his David D'Angelo interview when he basically announced how he
(25:03):
had a main girlfriend who brought home four or five other girls to have threesomes with all the
time without ever having any other men involved. And people were like, yeah, I want a piece of that.
I want in on that party. But you're talking about other guys being involved.
Yep.
Now, if you're a bisexual dude, that's fine. But how do you handle the sausage party if
(25:23):
you don't want to touch dicks? Yeah. Well, I'm not bisexual. I'm straight.
Well, good. That makes for a better answer. Tell me how you handle that. How can you spit roast a
chick and look at this guy's crank while you're doing it? I'm not interested. I don't know you.
Yeah. That's an interesting question. I don't know if I have a good answer. I think that's
(25:43):
a nature-nurture thing. I'm just not offended by seeing other guys' cocks.
Well, was that immediate or did you kind of get accustomed to that?
Well, hard to say. The first time it happened to me was not with Jane. When I was in my 20s in
(26:04):
my extreme sports days, one of the guys I did a lot of pretty badass climbing with,
one day, we were out climbing and his girlfriend was over. He said,
hey, would you fuck my girlfriend with me? I was like, really? I thought she was so hot.
He was like, yeah. We had this experience where we were both having sex. We were spit roasting,
as you say. It was really fun. It was just kind of an enjoyable thing. It wasn't my girlfriend.
(26:29):
It was his girlfriend. I was this other guy. I think that having that as my first
threesome experience with another guy kind of made it okay.
It kind of softens the blow, literally.
It softened the blow, right? If it had been my girlfriend the first time, I think that would
have been a lot harder because the first time I did it with Jane was difficult because there were
(26:52):
a lot of emotions around it. Then we do all the comparison things that guys do and learning how
not to have that competitive element going on was a challenge.
Yeah. That is pretty much my next question. I mean, what if you don't measure up and this
guy comes and he's long donk silver and good grief?
Yeah. It's an interesting-
(27:14):
But what if it's the other way around and the other poor bastard's like,
oh God, I want out of here. It's like, oh, you had to ruin everything, didn't you?
I haven't had that. I haven't had either of those things where-
Well, then we know which side of the ledger you fall on.
I think I'm probably about average. That was part of the growth that happened when I started
realizing how much of my own masculinity and a lot of worth things were coming from this
(27:40):
external markers instead of looking inside. What experiences like that helped me do was
to really focus on the connection I did have with Jane and the wonderful life we have.
If I was starting to feel jealous, I'd be like, wait a second, didn't she bring home that
ridiculously hot redhead last week for us to have a threesome and she's loving this and she's into
this guy? That's great. The thought that to think that you are absolutely going to be the be-all,
(28:05):
end-all of sex to every woman you're with is not realistic. If you're open-minded,
you can actually learn something from other guys because they might know things you don't. You
might know things they don't. It's about keeping an open mind and just keeping that chill mindset.
I talk a lot about that in the book about the climber's mindset. It's this chill space that
(28:25):
you have to get into when you're free soloing. I had to really rely on that to get through a
lot of this before I started getting comfortable with the various places I found myself with Jane.
Interesting, both being a good lover and free climbing involve having very talented fingers.
There you go. You're right. I hadn't thought about that.
Let that be our thought for the day among other salient ones, I'm sure.
(28:48):
You said you're into extreme sports. Would you classify this as an extreme sport?
That's the point of the book. I did a very extreme form of non-monogamy. That was way too
much. I don't ever want to do that again. It was absolutely an extreme sport.
It's like how Neil Strauss wrote the book, The Game. It's an extreme version of meeting and
(29:12):
picking up and banging chicks. It's neither a blessing nor a curse on the whole process.
He reports, you decide kind of thing. I didn't read that book. I don't know that book,
so hard for me to comment on it. Well, that's basically how it is. A lot of
guys read the first half of it because it's kind of long and pronounce Neil Strauss this hero of
meeting and banging chicks. They didn't read far enough into the book to see where it all falls
(29:35):
apart and gets complicated and toxic. Right. Okay.
It happened sometime right after Courtney Love moved in with it.
Courtney Love. Yeah, I wouldn't have minded Courtney Love.
She took everything because she wanted to. Right.
All right. You don't either recommend or not recommend being monogamous,
but you think that the extreme to which you took it is probably a little much in retrospect.
(30:00):
Well, for me, it was much. I'm never going to comment on what someone else's limits are
to each their own. What part was too much for you?
Well, it's hard to say if it was too much because of Jane or just because of the environment,
but I want to be more connected to my partner on a daily basis. For Jane, her sort of reason to be
(30:21):
was to go out and fuck as many guys as she could. That meant there was less time for me. Also, when
I was going out and having sex with other women, which was great because she was like, please go,
and she wanted to hear all about it. She got turned on by it. It just meant that I was losing focus
from my partner and I wasn't getting the intimacy from the connection, from the relationship,
from the marriage that I wanted. In the end, I went searching for more connection.
(30:45):
It's kind of a reverse of the typical gender stereotype to an extreme.
At some level, it is, yeah. She was one of a kind, still is.
I used to look at online dating as an extreme sport because you have these pictures and these
profiles and she can write back or she might not, and then you have this chance to meet her.
(31:10):
Essentially, every date is a blind date. She could have lied about her pictures and
be 100 pounds heavier than she was eight years ago when she took the pictures,
or she could have been kind of shy, not so photogenic, and you hit the proverbial
jackpot when she shows up. I used to love that uncertainty. I used to think that was great.
(31:30):
To me, that was like catching a wave that you might wipe out on or ride all the way to the
beach or road racing a motorcycle in the canyon. It's a rush, but if you wreck, you could end up
in traction for three months. To me, it was just as extreme a sport. Yeah, I can understand that.
I think if you don't have butterflies and a lot of nervous energy and excitement
(31:53):
surrounding sexuality with a woman in general, you might as well check the pulse.
It's fun. It adds an element of fun and excitement. Like you said, spice,
it gets you out of your comfort zone and forces you to think and grow.
It was great. I wouldn't trade it for anything. It made me a lot more of who I am today.
(32:16):
Is it kind of like the thrill is terrific, but you need an increasing dose
until one day you realize, oh, crap, I've taken this too far and I need to get sober?
No, no, it wasn't like that. The doses were fine. It was fun. It was a lifestyle.
It was great. It's just, again, eventually I realized, yeah, I need more intimacy. I don't
(32:38):
want this much external involvement in my relationship and the primary connection I
have with somebody. It was just a personal choice. Yeah, you know what? The mic drop here is a lot
of guys really want to be an international playboy, bang bunches of chicks, have threesomes,
foursomes and moresomes and have an Eastern European girlfriend with a sexy accent and
(33:02):
have orgies every night until one day they realize I've gotten that out of my system
or had that experience. I'm done with the trophy bagging that I can say I've done this and I've
done that. And now my experience sounding as you also like to talk about as opposed to trophy
bagging, it's just going to take me in a different direction. I mean, one time I was talking to a guy
(33:25):
who was really good with women about the same time I was getting really good with women.
And I said to him, I said, I never thought I'd get to the point in my life where I could have
sex tonight, but I'd really just, you know, for one time this week, rather go to the range and
hit a bucket of golf balls. You know, that's just more what I feel like. He goes, yeah, that's when
(33:45):
you know you've arrived. I said, yeah, yeah, I think so. And so there is more to life than just
banging chicks. And once you've had enough sex, you realize it would be great to have a female
best friend to build a legacy with, maybe have some kids with spent all my frequent flyer miles
with build a house with grow old with, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, your buddies, you know,
(34:08):
maybe a different set of guys than who would have scoffed at you for having a non monogamous
girlfriend. Maybe your buddies won't scoff at you for wanting to settle down and have one great
woman in your life. And, you know, like the red pill guys would say, well, you sawed your balls
off at the altar because it becomes an informed choice. Yeah. You know, you, you've had the other
(34:30):
things and you've decided you don't want that anymore. And now you're looking at something that
has potentially more meaning to you and for the longer term. And, and that's the next adventure
for a lack of a better word. And I would encourage guys to go explore, find if it's interesting,
see if you like it, you may not, it may be too much, but then again, it may force you to grow
like it forced me to grow. And that was great. And then in the end I decided, yeah, it's a little
(34:54):
much for me, but it's, I think life is a daring adventure and nothing at all. And pushing my,
pushing my boundaries and my buttons is, is where I seem to get the experiences that leave
permanent marks on my soul. And that's, that's what life's about to me. What did Hunter Thompson
say? You want to slide in sideways, beat up and used up. You want to look good in your coffin.
Exactly.
(35:15):
Last question. Sure. Have you found your honey?
I have not. I am currently just met someone who I have been just a couple of months in who
certainly is showing, showing some promise. But it feels different than anyone else I've met.
Someone who I've been completely open, who has read the book and says, knows all my deep, dark,
(35:39):
dirty secrets. And she's very forgiving of it for lack of a better way to put it. She's
accepting of it. Not only she thought it was really cool and she was like, wow, that was
pretty amazing, pretty amazing story. So that's, that's been fun. I've, you know, the, the,
the relationship with Jane ended in 2019 and then I wrote the book during the pandemic. So I've been
dating on and off since then. What else did you have to do? There weren't going to be, you know,
(36:04):
12 sums during the pandemic. Yeah. No more 12 sums. Not in New York. Yeah. I actually was in
Colorado. You needed to come to Texas or North Dakota. You know, I'm going to hook you up.
There you go. Yeah. Just keep my dog away from her. Yes, exactly.
We don't want to have any other mammalian types of species involved
(36:26):
in the bedroom. That would be, that would be more non-monogamous. And I really care to talk
about a little more than that. Yeah, that's, that's, I know I'm not, I will judge. I'm sorry.
No, I don't judge, but I'm going to judge on that. I don't even remember what the question was you
asked me. Well, no, we were talking about your new honey. And I think the point that I want to
get across to these guys is even if you've been like a man, whore, according to some purely
(36:51):
judgmental woman out there, you just need to find the woman who's right for you. And you're not going
to be judgmental of another woman's sexual experience. And I firmly believe Adam, that a
man and a woman with lots and lots of sexual experience can find each other and be happy
together and even live a monogamous life. If that's what they choose for the duration. I think
(37:11):
a lot of people, and it's part of the shaming process, in my opinion, we'll tell people,
Oh, if you go out and bang a bunch of people, you'll be spoiled for a monogamy and having a
normal sexual lifestyle forever. And I think they're full of it. I think it's projection.
Yeah. And actually it, for me, it's the opposite, right? I went so nuts with Jane. I'm like,
you know what? Okay. I did that. That was fun. You know what? I'm looking for something else now.
(37:36):
Yeah. And you show me a guy who has a real problem with the number of sex partners
his fiance has had before. And a hundred percent of the time, I'll show you a guy
who's had fewer sex partners than his fiance. It's all jealousy. Even if it's faith-based,
it's thinly veiled jealousy. I mean, I, I, that was no, there was no issue with that. You know,
(37:58):
I thought I was such a bad-ass cause I'd slept with a hundred women and Jane was like, Oh,
I've slept with 500 guys. I was like, Oh, what? It was like, okay, there we go. So it was, it was
from the go-get. I was, I was the sexual neophyte in this relationship, which was a totally new
place for me. It was wild. Yeah. It felt kind of new, huh? Yeah. It was interesting, you know,
the, you know, I met her in my late thirties and it was yeah, it was, it was a, it was a journey
(38:24):
and I wrote a book about it. His name is Adam Darrow from Brooklyn, New York,
although he's kind of an erstwhile New Yorker cause he's in Boulder, Colorado. The name of
his book is Seek the Risk. You can find it on Amazon at mountaintoppodcast.com front slash
Amazon. And when you go to mountaintoppodcast.com risk R I S K, you will be magically transported
(38:48):
to seek the risk.net where you can find out more about Adam and grab a copy of his book from there
as well. If you'd like Adam, what a great conversation. This took wonderful twists
and turns and all sorts of directions that I'm glad they went in. Thank you for your candor
and for being so honest about this. I think it's been a great show. Thank you.
(39:09):
Thanks for having me, Scott. I really, I really appreciate the time.
Yeah, man. And I'd love to have you back on to talk specifically about experience hunting
versus trophy bagging cause that's a wonderful topic also. Absolutely. Yeah. But this,
this topic was burning a hole in my life, so it had to come first.
No problem. No problem at all.
Thanks again, man.
Sure. Thank you.
And gentlemen, be sure to go over to mountaintoppodcast.com download the free book,
(39:33):
sticking point solved. I don't have a sticking point about what to do if you're dating
a hundred women at once and banging 13 of them at a time that you'll have to go see Adam about,
but just about everything in the world else that could be a sticking point in your dating
and relationship life and, or in your relationships with women is in there.
Also want to thank my sponsors, all three of whom may be panicking at this point,
(39:58):
Jocko Willink's company, origin in Maine, also the key port and hero soap.com. When you use the
coupon code mountain 10 with any of our sponsors, you will enjoy an additional 10% off. And guys,
if you want to get on my calendar and then pick up the phone and talk to me about whatever's on
your mind for half an hour or so, I'm open to that. If you just want to give suggestions on
(40:19):
how the show could be better, maybe recommend a couple guests hook us up. That would be great.
Or if you want to talk about how to improve your life as a man and with women,
maybe we can put a plan of action together that won't break the bank,
but we'll give you exactly the results you want that opportunity to get on my calendar.
And so much more is there for you at mountaintoppodcast.com. And until I talk to you
(40:44):
again, real soon, this is Scott McKay from X and Y communications in San Antonio, Texas. Be good out there.
The mountaintop podcast is produced by X and Y communications, all rights reserved worldwide.
(41:05):
Be sure to visit www.mountaintoppodcast.com for show notes. And while you're there,
sign up for the free X and Y communications newsletter for men.
This is Ed Roy Odom speaking for the mountaintop podcast.
Live from the mist-enshrouded mountaintop fortress that is X&Y Communications Headquarters,
you're listening to the World Famous Mountaintop Podcast. And now, here's your host, Scot McKay.
Greetings, gentlemen. Welcome to yet another episode of the World Famous Mountaintop Podcast.
As always, I am your host, Scott McKay. Scott with one T, that is. That was my nickname,
(00:28):
actually, in junior high, much to my own chagrin. But anyway, on to the social media information.
I am, indeed, at scottmckay on X, on YouTube, on True Social, and on TikTok. And you can find me
at realscottmckay on both threads and on Instagram. But like I've said before, you're not going to find
(00:49):
me on threads too much because that place is just a cesspool. I mean, good grief. I hope you guys
aren't using threads, actually. The Facebook group is Mountaintop Summit, as always. And the
website is mountaintoppodcast.com. Gentlemen, I'm excited. I'm pumped. I'm stoked for this show
today. I've got a new friend. We've been chatting for a while before we clicked record on this
(01:10):
particular episode. His name is Adam Darrow from Brooklyn, New York, although he spends his winters
in Boulder, Colorado, lucky bastard, which is where he is skiing and snowboarding and doing all
sorts of extreme sports, like I am also jealous of him doing. His book is called Seek the Risk,
go figure, which you could find on Amazon at mountaintoppodcast.com, front slash Amazon,
(01:32):
of course. And his website is seektherisk.net. And I don't know if this has directly to do with
risk taking or not. I guess we'll find out together. But the topic du jour is one we've
been meaning to cover for a long time, and I just have to have the right guest. And the topic is
non-monogamy, which is a pretty broad topic with a lot of number of broads, I'm sure.
(01:55):
So what Adam says is that he had a journey he took into non-monogamy, and that is the conversation
starter wherever he goes, but probably not church. Adam, how are you doing, man? Good
to have you on the show. Thanks. Thanks for the intro, Scott. It's good to be here.
Yeah, man. That was probably a little bit wackier an intro than I've done in weeks or months.
(02:20):
But hey, this is not a conventional topic. Define non-monogamy. What are we going to
talk about today? Oh, well, non-monogamy at its root level just means not having
one sexual partner. And there are many different facets of it, but at the root level, it means
not one life, one wife. It means there's flexibility in the number of either sexual
(02:44):
or emotional partners you have, depending on how you practice the non-monogamy.
Okay, perfect. That's what I was hoping you'd say. So in other words, we're not talking about
just being swingers. We can be talking about anything polyamorous up to and including,
well, dating more than one woman at a time and doing the wild thing with more than one
woman at a time in your life. Or having a harem of loyal girlfriends. Or if you can, sure.
(03:09):
If you can. Or other dudes. Or dudes, whatever you're into. It can be bisexual,
heterosexual, whatever. So I guess the best place to continue after we've defined the term that
we're going to be referring to again and again in the show is tell us a little bit about this journey.
Right. So I came out of college and I was like a lot of typical young men now to prove myself and
(03:31):
got into the world of extreme sports, but then into business. And through all that time, I had
lots of different girlfriends. And I had an image of, and we all tell stories about who we are,
and I had an image of myself of being this wild and crazy guy. I had a lot of sexual experiences.
I had some threesomes and such with my girlfriends and thought that I was badass. And then I met a
(03:56):
woman who sort of blew everything I thought about female sexuality and male sexuality
and relationships away. I met a woman who totally blew me away.
All in one convenient package. The male sexuality, the female sexuality, all of it.
She got me to question everything. But I met her at a dinner party at my house of all places. A
friend brought her. And she's Eastern European. She was model gorgeous. She was getting a PhD from
(04:21):
an Ivy League university. Speak in five different languages.
And had that accent.
And had that incredible accent. And just stunningly beautiful. And I was blown away by her.
We got to know each other and started hanging out and then started hooking up a little bit.
And I realized very quickly that she was someone who did not play by the rules. I don't know if
(04:47):
rules is the right word. But didn't paint within the lines of sexuality. And she was very clear
about that as well. And as we got close, she was like, look, I'm not the kind of girl who has a
boyfriend. But I was falling for this woman. Because every other part of her was amazing.
And we had the best time together. And as our spending time together got into a relationship,
she was like, look, I only do non-monogamy. And you're going to have to be cool with the
(05:11):
fact that I'm going to sleep with whoever I want to, whenever I want to.
I'm happy to have you as a boyfriend. But that's the only way I do relationships.
And that was sort of presented to me. And I was a little bit taken back, as I think most people
would be. But I started thinking about it. And I was like, okay, this sounds interesting. It's
terrifying to me. But I kind of like scary things. The book parallels my life in extreme sports and
(05:40):
this extreme relationship. And I started seeing how similar and how I had to learn how to control
the emotions in both of them the same way. So that's how it all started. I was presented with
a choice. And I decided to take that choice. Yeah, I think amongst the rule players who indeed
color within the lines in this society, the euphemism for her would be a free spirit.
(06:02):
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, she was, yeah, about as free a spirit as you can imagine.
Okay. You know, it's interesting. A lot of guys think they want to date lots of women. A lot of
guys fantasize about being a swinger and living the lifestyle. But really, perhaps immaturely,
they're thinking about it from the standpoint of what they're going to gain from it. Like,
(06:22):
man, I get to have a wife and then bang a bunch of other chicks on the side.
And when the reality strikes and they're at a swinger club and they watch some guy pegging
their wife, all of a sudden everything changes. It's almost like Mike Tyson. Everybody's got
to plan until they get punched in the face. It sort of feels like that.
Exactly. Yeah.
Exactly. And my experience actually took it one step beyond that. So she's a sex educator.
(06:49):
She's a psychologist and a relationship coach. And she was very public about her life. So not only
was I entering into a situation like the one you described, but also she was very public.
She was also very clear this, look, if we're going to date, everyone's going to know that we're
non-monogamous because I believe in broadcasting my sexuality because I'm here to help women
(07:12):
expand their own sexuality and I lead by example. So when we originally started dating,
she announced on Facebook, hey, Adam and I are in an open relationship. And my world absolutely
turned upside down when that happened. All my friends, family were like, what are you doing?
And my masculinity suffered. It was unbelievable.
(07:32):
Oh, wow. Everybody's like, what are you doing, step bro?
Because it's funny when everyone first met her, everyone was like, oh my God, Adam hit the
jackpot. It was incredible. And then when- I didn't know you'd hit the jackpots, plural.
I guess so. And then when this thing happened on Facebook, what was interesting to me is not only
did my masculinity suffer in the eyes of other people, also her value of a woman went down as
(07:57):
well. I was seeing a side of life that I was blown away by it. All of a sudden she was like a slut.
No, she's not worth- she's not marriage material anymore. She just likes casual sex. And people
were calling me a sissy man because I think my best friend was like, you let your woman fuck
other men? And I was like, I don't let her fuck other men any more than I let her be female.
(08:21):
That's just who she is. And so there was the initial baseball bat to the face, if you will,
about getting into this. That's even worse than a Mike Tyson punch, man.
That could kill a brother, that baseball bat. But it was interesting. It was a huge growth
period for me because all of a sudden I started realizing how much I was basing my own masculinity
(08:41):
on all these external forces. So it caused me a lot of introspection, which then carried over into
once I did have to watch my wife getting fucked by other men.
So you married this woman?
We actually got married. Yeah, we got married a few years later.
You dropped the W word there, man.
Yeah, wife. Yeah, she became my wife. And we were together 10 years. And it was after that I was
(09:06):
talking with a buddy of mine who was starting to go down the non-monogamy road. And I told him
everything that went through. And he's a writer. And he was like, dude, you need to write that
story down. It's unbelievably intense.
It's like Hank Moody stuff there.
I wish I knew who that was.
Oh, the lead character in Californication.
Yeah, people have told me I need to watch that show.
Yeah. It sounds like something he'd write in one of his fictional, fictional books.
(09:30):
Got it.
Anyway, it's very fascinating. You would say that you felt your masculinity was being stretched
and strained by this experience as people found out about it. I mean, the slut shaming towards her
is largely to be expected.
Sure. Yep.
We're not past that in society yet. But it seems like it's super macho to have a chick who'll
(09:53):
introduce you to other chicks and you bang her buddies and she's bringing people home and you're
having all this sex. So you must have had some straight laced friends that were like, bro,
is that what was going on here?
Well, yes, there was a lot. I mean, there's no question that I had an incredible sex life
being with this woman. But it was the idea of her being with other men that was a bridge too far
(10:17):
for a lot of my friends and even my family. They were cool with her bringing a girlfriend over for
us to have a threesome with. But as soon as they're like, wait, she's out fucking other guys
on her own, that was like, whoa, no, no, no, no, no. That's too much. So if it had only been
her bringing friends over, yeah, I think I probably would have been a hero in a lot of
the bro's eyes. But that's not what she was about.
(10:42):
If this is Siam or the top copy in Istanbul, Turkey, then having a bunch of women licking
each other all the time till you're ready for one or two of them at a time is fine. Just
it can't be a sausage party.
Exactly.
Yeah, that's probably, ironically enough, a more conventional viewpoint towards potential
non-monogamy than one would probably think. That's how we imagine it. I'm the king of Siam.
(11:04):
I'm King Solomon from the Bible, and I have a harem of 157 women and counting,
and I just get to pick whichever two or three I can handle at once in one night.
I don't care if they lick each other, have a bunch of eunuchs guarding them. They don't
have balls anyway, who cares? But when it comes to other dudes who can jackalode on them,
(11:26):
forget about it.
Forget about it. Yeah, so there was that.
I want all the babies to be mine, selfishly.
Yeah.
Well, what about that? Lots of birth control?
Well, yes, obviously, there's a lot in that world. And what was that world? She pulled
me into the underground sex world of New York City, and I saw a side of New York I
(11:46):
did not know existed. But yes, there's a lot.
That sounds like gonorrhea waiting to happen, though.
Believe it or not, when people are very deliberate about their sexuality at sex parties and such,
everyone is tested, everyone's practicing safe sex. It's a remarkably
educated crowd. You'd be surprised. No, I was like-
(12:07):
Kind of like porn.
You know, in some way, I think so. Yeah. It was surprisingly safe.
You know, I have to ask this question. It's a small world, although there's 8 billion
people in it. But I've had like five women who fit the description of who you're talking about
on this show as guests. And by the way, they're always fantastic guests, real crowd pleasers.
(12:27):
Has she ever been on this show?
I don't think so.
Okay, that's probably better for all of us. Let's keep it anonymous.
I mean, her name is Jane in the book. All names are changed in the book for obvious reasons.
But I don't know if she's been on your podcast or not.
Yeah, we've had like five or six Eastern European sex goddesses who-
(12:47):
Yeah, there's a lot of them.
Incredibly glib about talking about screwing, and the guys just love them. Some of them,
I don't care what they're talking about. They could be talking about avionics or something,
for all I care.
That accent.
Yeah, right. With that accent, I could listen to them read the phone book.
And everyone asks me, who is it? And I go, oh, come on. You don't know? It's Esther Perel.
That's who it was.
(13:10):
Sure.
Eastern European sex educator, PhD. Fits the description.
It's Dr. Ruth.
Dr. Ruth.
Yeah, she's dead now, right?
Yeah, bless her heart. She's a sweetie. She died at a ripe old age. She was late 90s.
Yeah. So 10 years with this woman, were the two of you non-monogamous immediately,
(13:34):
and to the extent that you eventually were relatively quickly? Or was there an evolution
to how much you were introduced to, and how much you felt like you could handle along the way?
Yeah. So yes, there was a bit of an evolution, but we were non-monogamous from the beginning.
When we met, she was still at school, getting her PhD, and I was in New York. So we only saw
(13:56):
each other every other weekend. So I basically was like, whatever you're doing at school,
when I'm not there, that's great. I don't want to know about it. It was sort of like a don't ask,
don't tell thing. And then after she graduated, and she moved in, then I traveled a lot for work.
So I was like, look, can you just keep your extracurriculars to when I travel? And if I'm
(14:18):
going to play around, I'll do it while I travel. And then when I'm home, we would play together
with other people. So I never really had to deal with it right in front of me initially.
But then over time, she wanted to start relaxing those rules, because to her, her sexuality was a
very important part of who she was. And if she was hiding it from me, she kind of felt like
we weren't as close as we should be for people that were living together and now married.
(14:42):
So slowly, she started opening up about the kind of sex she was having with other guys. So I was
listening to it, which was incredibly difficult for me, until eventually we started relaxing the
rules more. And then by the end of our marriage, she was going on dates while I was home and
sometimes even bringing a guy home and such. So yeah, there was definitely an evolution.
(15:02):
What I would say to all those guys who were shaming you and your masculinity is, yeah,
I wonder if they're honeys to kind of whack them over the head with a rolling pin if they catch
them watching porn. Right. Yeah, more of a traditional 1950s marriage kind of thing.
Yeah, I mean, they're probably so hamstrung in their sexuality with this one woman that
they probably can't think aloud about anything different. You know, meanwhile,
(15:24):
there's something wrong with you. Why not live and let live, you know?
Yeah, absolutely. And I will say that for my close friends who judged me harshly initially,
they're my close friends, because I know they're good people, and they're smart people. And
they all came around. In fact, one of them who really judged me-
Joined the party. He came over and he banged your wife.
They didn't come around that much. One of them who judged me really harshly for the choices once
(15:49):
it became public, you know, what Jane was doing, almost when I started writing the book and we were
out skiing together once, he said, look, I want you to know that I actually think you're a far
stronger man than I am for doing what you did and how you did it. And I'm really impressed. And
that's 15 years later. But people, there was a lot of the masculinity thing was a big deal for me.
(16:11):
And it seems that this actually showed me being a pretty strong man to a lot
of people in the end. And that was great. Adam, why do you think more people don't
embrace this kind of sexual lifestyle? Is it because of nature or nurture?
You know, it's funny because Jane actually was a sex scientist and a sex educator. And so we
(16:33):
talked about this a lot. And in the scientific community, there's a lot of debate about that.
And I also want to be clear. The book is neither a celebration nor a cautionary tale about
non-monogamy. It's just a story. And so I don't have a good answer for your question,
other than some people it works for and some people it doesn't. You know, I wouldn't recommend
non-monogamy, but I wouldn't recommend monogamy either. You just decide what problems you want
(16:56):
because you're going to have them either way. So I don't know if it's nature or nurture. I think
I'm an adventure-seeking kind of person. So having a little excitement in my life
meant that I was a little more attuned to it. Now, the non-monogamy I did with Jane was something
I never want to do that again. That was crazy. But, you know, a little flexibility here and there
is kind of interesting to me. And I think a lot of people would sort of fall into that
(17:18):
kind of idea that they're monogamous with a partner in terms of their emotion, but, you know,
maybe a little something on the side now and again to keep things spicy wouldn't be a terrible idea.
Well, the one thing that happens in a situation such as you're describing is there's really
little margin for calling somebody a cheater. You have truly an open relationship. You can
(17:40):
do whatever you want sexually. And when we talk about cheating on someone, let's face it,
99.9% of the time it's something sexual. The breach was sexual. I mean, I guess you could
cheat on someone by spending all their money and pretending you didn't and hiding the records or
something. But whenever we talk about someone having cheated on their spouse,
(18:01):
the knee-jerk reaction is somebody screwed someone on the side.
Right. In the book, I talk about trust violation, not cheating, right? Did someone violate the other
person's trust? And that can be about anything. It can be about sex. It can be about money. So
it takes it more to that space. When you have an open relationship, what's cheating is if you've
violated someone's trust. So it's not that cheating's gone. It's just it's sort of a
(18:24):
little different. That's all. Well, you know, in the modern Judeo-Christian tradition,
it's one man, one woman, although the Old Testament is replete with examples of non-monogamy
and even stealing other people's wife and God blessing the guy for it in the case of King David,
famously, of course. Nowadays, it seems like we have a very strict definition of what's proper
(18:51):
and what's not when it comes to human sexual relationships. And all of it is kind of debatable.
But here we are. And anytime, even if you're dating more than one woman at once,
you probably don't want to tell your parents about it.
Yeah. You know, your grandma asks you at Thanksgiving, so do you have a girlfriend?
(19:13):
Yeah, actually, Nana, I have 16 of them. And, you know, sometimes three a day. You know,
you just don't blurt that across the table, you know, while you're eating pumpkin pie.
So meanwhile, I got a guy's fantasize about this. There's a lot of porn about this. And porn is
purely fantasy, of course. And like, I'm not sure most men would actually sign up to be male
(19:39):
strippers and have 45 women sucking their dicks while they're the only ones being naked. But it
sure seems like a nice fantasy. But in reality, most of us would quiver and fall apart under
such circumstances. But you have a situation where people will judge you and people don't
want to be judged. And we tell ourselves, this isn't how I was designed. I was designed by
(20:02):
God Almighty himself. You know, imagine Billy Graham saying it, to be one man with one woman.
And guys take great pride in saying, I'm a one woman man, you know, and wives take great pride
in having a relationship that's rock solid with their husband. So many marriages fall apart
because people literally can't hold it together. Right? You can't hold it together. So it falls
(20:24):
apart, go figure. But whether that's innately in us or something we've been socialized to accept
really is a big question. Because everybody has a prurient fascination with what you've got going on.
About 10 years ago, thrupling was a thing. You know, I have basically three wives and I have
(20:44):
children by all of them. And these guys are appearing on the Today Show. I even had one
of them on my show, you know, to talk about it. And they all broke up. And now that same guy's
with one woman, you know what I mean? But he's got four baby mamas. And so basically it just ends up
looking old school in retrospect. You know, I have four kids I'm paying child support for by four
(21:06):
different women. You know, next thing you know, you look more like Sean Kemp from the NBA instead
of some non-monogamy hero. So I think it's really a good question whether it's in our being,
either archetypally or even genetically versus something we can kind of train ourselves to
accept. And the reason why I think that's a really poignant question is because it seems like you
(21:27):
weren't naturally bent towards being monogamous. And yet this woman came along and I don't want
to say talked you into it. She probably was very convincing. But there you were.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I thought I was pretty wild and crazy because I'd had
a couple of threesomes.
Well, you know what my problem with threesomes is? Maybe you've had better luck than me.
(21:50):
Okay.
But I have a type. I'm probably borderline demisexual. In other words,
only certain women do it for me. And every time, every time, and it isn't just a couple of times
I've ever been presented with a threesome, the other chick just awkwardly didn't do it for me.
And I refused it. And it wasn't she was ugly. It's just that-
(22:10):
Yes, yeah. It wasn't your type.
There's no way I'm going to give both of them the same attention. I'd really just rather
have you and maybe you can spectate or something. I don't know.
Assess. Give the assist.
Whatever. But the threesome thing, it seems like if you can find a porn movie where there's two of
them that look exactly the way you like it, and let's face it, I mean, unless they're really
(22:32):
kinky, you're not going to find twin sisters who are doing the threesome. That's incestuous. That's
really weird. But the reality of threesomes in real life is not what you see in porn.
Now, I think porn can be very indicative of the kind of sex you have in real life,
even though some people will say none of it is. I think those people are probably just
(22:53):
very judgmental towards it. But the threesome thing, the monogamy thing, sometimes it's
overwhelming. Sometimes it's disappointing. Sometimes it doesn't go the way you want it
to go. And the more people you have involved, the more margin for error there is. So, I mean,
what are the pitfalls of living this lifestyle from that perspective?
(23:14):
I mean, it's like anything else. You take risks and you seek the risk. You try something and
sometimes it doesn't always work out great, but that's okay. If it didn't work out great,
you think about, okay, why didn't it work out great? Did I say yes just because I wanted to
do it, yet I wasn't that into the person and that's why? Or what were the other reasons why
(23:34):
it didn't work out? I've had numbers of threesomes that, yeah, that wasn't so good. That didn't go
well. But then I've had a number of them that were absolutely amazing and mind-numbing nights.
Just like climbing a mountain, some big great mountain adventure, just an incredible night.
It's you have to take the good with the bad. Porn makes it seem like every sexual experience is
(23:57):
the be-all and end-all, and that's just not reality.
Yeah, especially anal sex. I mean, you've got to clean yourself out or you're going to have a mess.
There's ways around that, I think.
Well, there's ways around that if you prepare.
Right.
Anyway, by the way, if you don't like my line of questioning, I'm anti-fragile. Just tell me to
go screw myself.
No, please. There's no topic that I'm... Let me tell you, the book is about as salacious as
(24:21):
you can imagine, dives deep into my own psyche and all the challenges that I had to go through
in terms of my masculinity and the jealousy and all that. I've already laid it out there.
You're not going to go too far with me.
Okay. Well, on that note, here's a truly salacious question that I think a lot of guys would really
(24:41):
like for me to ask. Non-monogamy. Okay. A lot of guys have become heroes in the pickup community,
right? I'm thinking of guys like David Shade and a guy named Stefan Heman from years ago who
set the world on fire with his David D'Angelo interview when he basically announced how he
(25:03):
had a main girlfriend who brought home four or five other girls to have threesomes with all the
time without ever having any other men involved. And people were like, yeah, I want a piece of that.
I want in on that party. But you're talking about other guys being involved.
Yep.
Now, if you're a bisexual dude, that's fine. But how do you handle the sausage party if
(25:23):
you don't want to touch dicks? Yeah. Well, I'm not bisexual. I'm straight.
Well, good. That makes for a better answer. Tell me how you handle that. How can you spit roast a
chick and look at this guy's crank while you're doing it? I'm not interested. I don't know you.
Yeah. That's an interesting question. I don't know if I have a good answer. I think that's
(25:43):
a nature-nurture thing. I'm just not offended by seeing other guys' cocks.
Well, was that immediate or did you kind of get accustomed to that?
Well, hard to say. The first time it happened to me was not with Jane. When I was in my 20s in
(26:04):
my extreme sports days, one of the guys I did a lot of pretty badass climbing with,
one day, we were out climbing and his girlfriend was over. He said,
hey, would you fuck my girlfriend with me? I was like, really? I thought she was so hot.
He was like, yeah. We had this experience where we were both having sex. We were spit roasting,
as you say. It was really fun. It was just kind of an enjoyable thing. It wasn't my girlfriend.
(26:29):
It was his girlfriend. I was this other guy. I think that having that as my first
threesome experience with another guy kind of made it okay.
It kind of softens the blow, literally.
It softened the blow, right? If it had been my girlfriend the first time, I think that would
have been a lot harder because the first time I did it with Jane was difficult because there were
(26:52):
a lot of emotions around it. Then we do all the comparison things that guys do and learning how
not to have that competitive element going on was a challenge.
Yeah. That is pretty much my next question. I mean, what if you don't measure up and this
guy comes and he's long donk silver and good grief?
Yeah. It's an interesting-
(27:14):
But what if it's the other way around and the other poor bastard's like,
oh God, I want out of here. It's like, oh, you had to ruin everything, didn't you?
I haven't had that. I haven't had either of those things where-
Well, then we know which side of the ledger you fall on.
I think I'm probably about average. That was part of the growth that happened when I started
realizing how much of my own masculinity and a lot of worth things were coming from this
(27:40):
external markers instead of looking inside. What experiences like that helped me do was
to really focus on the connection I did have with Jane and the wonderful life we have.
If I was starting to feel jealous, I'd be like, wait a second, didn't she bring home that
ridiculously hot redhead last week for us to have a threesome and she's loving this and she's into
this guy? That's great. The thought that to think that you are absolutely going to be the be-all,
(28:05):
end-all of sex to every woman you're with is not realistic. If you're open-minded,
you can actually learn something from other guys because they might know things you don't. You
might know things they don't. It's about keeping an open mind and just keeping that chill mindset.
I talk a lot about that in the book about the climber's mindset. It's this chill space that
(28:25):
you have to get into when you're free soloing. I had to really rely on that to get through a
lot of this before I started getting comfortable with the various places I found myself with Jane.
Interesting, both being a good lover and free climbing involve having very talented fingers.
There you go. You're right. I hadn't thought about that.
Let that be our thought for the day among other salient ones, I'm sure.
(28:48):
You said you're into extreme sports. Would you classify this as an extreme sport?
That's the point of the book. I did a very extreme form of non-monogamy. That was way too
much. I don't ever want to do that again. It was absolutely an extreme sport.
It's like how Neil Strauss wrote the book, The Game. It's an extreme version of meeting and
(29:12):
picking up and banging chicks. It's neither a blessing nor a curse on the whole process.
He reports, you decide kind of thing. I didn't read that book. I don't know that book,
so hard for me to comment on it. Well, that's basically how it is. A lot of
guys read the first half of it because it's kind of long and pronounce Neil Strauss this hero of
meeting and banging chicks. They didn't read far enough into the book to see where it all falls
(29:35):
apart and gets complicated and toxic. Right. Okay.
It happened sometime right after Courtney Love moved in with it.
Courtney Love. Yeah, I wouldn't have minded Courtney Love.
She took everything because she wanted to. Right.
All right. You don't either recommend or not recommend being monogamous,
but you think that the extreme to which you took it is probably a little much in retrospect.
(30:00):
Well, for me, it was much. I'm never going to comment on what someone else's limits are
to each their own. What part was too much for you?
Well, it's hard to say if it was too much because of Jane or just because of the environment,
but I want to be more connected to my partner on a daily basis. For Jane, her sort of reason to be
(30:21):
was to go out and fuck as many guys as she could. That meant there was less time for me. Also, when
I was going out and having sex with other women, which was great because she was like, please go,
and she wanted to hear all about it. She got turned on by it. It just meant that I was losing focus
from my partner and I wasn't getting the intimacy from the connection, from the relationship,
from the marriage that I wanted. In the end, I went searching for more connection.
(30:45):
It's kind of a reverse of the typical gender stereotype to an extreme.
At some level, it is, yeah. She was one of a kind, still is.
I used to look at online dating as an extreme sport because you have these pictures and these
profiles and she can write back or she might not, and then you have this chance to meet her.
(31:10):
Essentially, every date is a blind date. She could have lied about her pictures and
be 100 pounds heavier than she was eight years ago when she took the pictures,
or she could have been kind of shy, not so photogenic, and you hit the proverbial
jackpot when she shows up. I used to love that uncertainty. I used to think that was great.
(31:30):
To me, that was like catching a wave that you might wipe out on or ride all the way to the
beach or road racing a motorcycle in the canyon. It's a rush, but if you wreck, you could end up
in traction for three months. To me, it was just as extreme a sport. Yeah, I can understand that.
I think if you don't have butterflies and a lot of nervous energy and excitement
(31:53):
surrounding sexuality with a woman in general, you might as well check the pulse.
It's fun. It adds an element of fun and excitement. Like you said, spice,
it gets you out of your comfort zone and forces you to think and grow.
It was great. I wouldn't trade it for anything. It made me a lot more of who I am today.
(32:16):
Is it kind of like the thrill is terrific, but you need an increasing dose
until one day you realize, oh, crap, I've taken this too far and I need to get sober?
No, no, it wasn't like that. The doses were fine. It was fun. It was a lifestyle.
It was great. It's just, again, eventually I realized, yeah, I need more intimacy. I don't
(32:38):
want this much external involvement in my relationship and the primary connection I
have with somebody. It was just a personal choice. Yeah, you know what? The mic drop here is a lot
of guys really want to be an international playboy, bang bunches of chicks, have threesomes,
foursomes and moresomes and have an Eastern European girlfriend with a sexy accent and
(33:02):
have orgies every night until one day they realize I've gotten that out of my system
or had that experience. I'm done with the trophy bagging that I can say I've done this and I've
done that. And now my experience sounding as you also like to talk about as opposed to trophy
bagging, it's just going to take me in a different direction. I mean, one time I was talking to a guy
(33:25):
who was really good with women about the same time I was getting really good with women.
And I said to him, I said, I never thought I'd get to the point in my life where I could have
sex tonight, but I'd really just, you know, for one time this week, rather go to the range and
hit a bucket of golf balls. You know, that's just more what I feel like. He goes, yeah, that's when
(33:45):
you know you've arrived. I said, yeah, yeah, I think so. And so there is more to life than just
banging chicks. And once you've had enough sex, you realize it would be great to have a female
best friend to build a legacy with, maybe have some kids with spent all my frequent flyer miles
with build a house with grow old with, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, your buddies, you know,
(34:08):
maybe a different set of guys than who would have scoffed at you for having a non monogamous
girlfriend. Maybe your buddies won't scoff at you for wanting to settle down and have one great
woman in your life. And, you know, like the red pill guys would say, well, you sawed your balls
off at the altar because it becomes an informed choice. Yeah. You know, you, you've had the other
(34:30):
things and you've decided you don't want that anymore. And now you're looking at something that
has potentially more meaning to you and for the longer term. And, and that's the next adventure
for a lack of a better word. And I would encourage guys to go explore, find if it's interesting,
see if you like it, you may not, it may be too much, but then again, it may force you to grow
like it forced me to grow. And that was great. And then in the end I decided, yeah, it's a little
(34:54):
much for me, but it's, I think life is a daring adventure and nothing at all. And pushing my,
pushing my boundaries and my buttons is, is where I seem to get the experiences that leave
permanent marks on my soul. And that's, that's what life's about to me. What did Hunter Thompson
say? You want to slide in sideways, beat up and used up. You want to look good in your coffin.
Exactly.
(35:15):
Last question. Sure. Have you found your honey?
I have not. I am currently just met someone who I have been just a couple of months in who
certainly is showing, showing some promise. But it feels different than anyone else I've met.
Someone who I've been completely open, who has read the book and says, knows all my deep, dark,
(35:39):
dirty secrets. And she's very forgiving of it for lack of a better way to put it. She's
accepting of it. Not only she thought it was really cool and she was like, wow, that was
pretty amazing, pretty amazing story. So that's, that's been fun. I've, you know, the, the,
the relationship with Jane ended in 2019 and then I wrote the book during the pandemic. So I've been
dating on and off since then. What else did you have to do? There weren't going to be, you know,
(36:04):
12 sums during the pandemic. Yeah. No more 12 sums. Not in New York. Yeah. I actually was in
Colorado. You needed to come to Texas or North Dakota. You know, I'm going to hook you up.
There you go. Yeah. Just keep my dog away from her. Yes, exactly.
We don't want to have any other mammalian types of species involved
(36:26):
in the bedroom. That would be, that would be more non-monogamous. And I really care to talk
about a little more than that. Yeah, that's, that's, I know I'm not, I will judge. I'm sorry.
No, I don't judge, but I'm going to judge on that. I don't even remember what the question was you
asked me. Well, no, we were talking about your new honey. And I think the point that I want to
get across to these guys is even if you've been like a man, whore, according to some purely
(36:51):
judgmental woman out there, you just need to find the woman who's right for you. And you're not going
to be judgmental of another woman's sexual experience. And I firmly believe Adam, that a
man and a woman with lots and lots of sexual experience can find each other and be happy
together and even live a monogamous life. If that's what they choose for the duration. I think
(37:11):
a lot of people, and it's part of the shaming process, in my opinion, we'll tell people,
Oh, if you go out and bang a bunch of people, you'll be spoiled for a monogamy and having a
normal sexual lifestyle forever. And I think they're full of it. I think it's projection.
Yeah. And actually it, for me, it's the opposite, right? I went so nuts with Jane. I'm like,
you know what? Okay. I did that. That was fun. You know what? I'm looking for something else now.
(37:36):
Yeah. And you show me a guy who has a real problem with the number of sex partners
his fiance has had before. And a hundred percent of the time, I'll show you a guy
who's had fewer sex partners than his fiance. It's all jealousy. Even if it's faith-based,
it's thinly veiled jealousy. I mean, I, I, that was no, there was no issue with that. You know,
(37:58):
I thought I was such a bad-ass cause I'd slept with a hundred women and Jane was like, Oh,
I've slept with 500 guys. I was like, Oh, what? It was like, okay, there we go. So it was, it was
from the go-get. I was, I was the sexual neophyte in this relationship, which was a totally new
place for me. It was wild. Yeah. It felt kind of new, huh? Yeah. It was interesting, you know,
the, you know, I met her in my late thirties and it was yeah, it was, it was a, it was a journey
(38:24):
and I wrote a book about it. His name is Adam Darrow from Brooklyn, New York,
although he's kind of an erstwhile New Yorker cause he's in Boulder, Colorado. The name of
his book is Seek the Risk. You can find it on Amazon at mountaintoppodcast.com front slash
Amazon. And when you go to mountaintoppodcast.com risk R I S K, you will be magically transported
(38:48):
to seek the risk.net where you can find out more about Adam and grab a copy of his book from there
as well. If you'd like Adam, what a great conversation. This took wonderful twists
and turns and all sorts of directions that I'm glad they went in. Thank you for your candor
and for being so honest about this. I think it's been a great show. Thank you.
(39:09):
Thanks for having me, Scott. I really, I really appreciate the time.
Yeah, man. And I'd love to have you back on to talk specifically about experience hunting
versus trophy bagging cause that's a wonderful topic also. Absolutely. Yeah. But this,
this topic was burning a hole in my life, so it had to come first.
No problem. No problem at all.
Thanks again, man.
Sure. Thank you.
And gentlemen, be sure to go over to mountaintoppodcast.com download the free book,
(39:33):
sticking point solved. I don't have a sticking point about what to do if you're dating
a hundred women at once and banging 13 of them at a time that you'll have to go see Adam about,
but just about everything in the world else that could be a sticking point in your dating
and relationship life and, or in your relationships with women is in there.
Also want to thank my sponsors, all three of whom may be panicking at this point,
(39:58):
Jocko Willink's company, origin in Maine, also the key port and hero soap.com. When you use the
coupon code mountain 10 with any of our sponsors, you will enjoy an additional 10% off. And guys,
if you want to get on my calendar and then pick up the phone and talk to me about whatever's on
your mind for half an hour or so, I'm open to that. If you just want to give suggestions on
(40:19):
how the show could be better, maybe recommend a couple guests hook us up. That would be great.
Or if you want to talk about how to improve your life as a man and with women,
maybe we can put a plan of action together that won't break the bank,
but we'll give you exactly the results you want that opportunity to get on my calendar.
And so much more is there for you at mountaintoppodcast.com. And until I talk to you
(40:44):
again, real soon, this is Scott McKay from X and Y communications in San Antonio, Texas. Be good out there.
The mountaintop podcast is produced by X and Y communications, all rights reserved worldwide.
(41:05):
Be sure to visit www.mountaintoppodcast.com for show notes. And while you're there,
sign up for the free X and Y communications newsletter for men.
This is Ed Roy Odom speaking for the mountaintop podcast.
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