May 15, 2025 • 43 mins
Co-Host Judith Kaluzny (https://mountaintoppodcast.com/judith) Plenty of us as men have not only had our run-ins with what's commonly known as the family law system, we feel as if we've been thoroughly shafted by it. Well, my guest is a retired divorce lawyer and mediator who is out to overthrow the family law system as we know it. Judith Kaluzny is the author of two books, Marriage License Handbook: Rules Of The Road For Getting Married and her upcoming one The American Way of Divorce: A Fraud on Families. Basically, Judith says we need to quit the systems designed with an adversary process as the default, and start over with a mediation system. She says that's because the divorce industry profits at the expense of the wife, husband and especially the children. The costs are financial, emotional and, for young children, developmental. So then, what are the pros and cons of mediating a divorce vs. litigating? What should marital property rules be? Should there be a marriage contract, like we see routinely in business? How does domestic violence factor in? As far as children go, Judith has seven (!) and believes strongly in 'parenting plans' instead of custody battles. What should a relational agreement with a woman look like? And finally, what I think is the centerpiece of her overall position, her argument for post-nuptial agreements rather than simply pre-nups. Get your copy of Sticking Points Solved for free and so much more at https://mountaintoppodcast.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Live from the mist-enshrouded mountaintop fortress that
is X and Y Communications Headquarters, you're listening
to the World Famous Mountaintop Podcast.
And now, here's your host, Scott McKay.
All right.
How's it going, gentlemen?
Welcome to yet another episode of the World
Famous Mountaintop Podcast.
As always, I'm your host, Scott McKay.
(00:25):
You can find me on TikTok, on YouTube,
on True Social, and on X, at Scott
McKay, and on Instagram, at realscottmckay.
And the website, as always, is mountaintoppodcast.com.
And gentlemen, if you haven't already joined the
Mountaintop Summit on Facebook, we're looking for you
(00:46):
there.
Join it.
It's not your typical men's group where everybody's
complaining about their relationships, and everybody's just telling
guys they've never met before to divorce their
wife and kick them with a curb because
a guy made a post on Facebook.
Nah, we don't do anything like that.
I'm not a self-absorbed guy who comes
on and basically bans guys and tells them
they're wrong every time they post something.
(01:06):
Nah, we don't do that.
We have lots of fun.
We admire women.
We enjoy women.
We get to be better men, in the
truest sense of the word, all at the
Mountaintop Summit on Facebook.
With me today is a new friend of
mine.
You're going to adore her.
She's very wonderful.
She comes from Fullerton, California, which is in
the OC out there in California.
(01:28):
And check this out, guys.
Judith Kaluzny is a divorce lawyer and mediator.
She's retired these days.
And she is on a mission to not
just reform family law, but to overthrow it.
I know that's going to be music to
a lot of your guys' ears after what
some of you have been through.
And with that in mind, I really, really
(01:49):
am looking forward to everything she's going to
bring to the table today.
From California, Judith Kaluzny, welcome to the show.
Oh, thank you very much.
Let me explain why I say overthrow instead
of reform.
Please, jump right into it.
In my research, I've got a stack of
books on how many feet high of people
that wrote about divorce reform.
(02:10):
I mean, books back to 1975.
And all these books have as many as
35 pages of listing their sources, their footnotes.
These books are written by academics.
And academics really don't accomplish changes that are
(02:30):
effective.
Ouch.
You don't pull any punches, do you?
You go right after them.
We have to start with a whole different
premise.
See, all the reforms that I've encountered start
with a court process.
And when you talk about court, that sets
(02:51):
up a win-lose sort of mindset that
sets up a mindset of proving you're right
and the other side is wrong.
Even if they mean to guide you into
a mediation, but still that you have to
go to a courthouse to file.
Scott, I've been thinking about this for 30
years.
(03:11):
And let me tell you how I started
thinking about this.
Back in the day, I was contacted by
a deputy sheriff in regard to establishing a
parental relationship.
He had had a child out of wedlock.
And he was now, the child was about
four years old.
(03:32):
But he was now married and had his
own child.
But the grandmother of this child out of
wedlock called him up and said, George, your
son is living in a drug house.
And if you don't go get him, I
will.
And so he did go get his son
and he came to me to establish the
(03:53):
legal parental relationship.
And in that process, we also met with
the mother and arranged supervised visits with the
son while my guy got custody of the
child.
So two months later, this woman's mother hired
a lawyer for her daughter.
And they went to court claiming that now
(04:16):
that I've had more time with my son,
two months worth, I want custody.
Well, the judge appointed a psychologist to do
a study.
The psychologist was very offensive.
My guy says his wife almost divorced him
over the stress.
The report, the psychologist took, was it three
or five months, wrote a 53-page report,
(04:38):
cost $5,000.
This was 30 years ago.
And on top of that, my guy was
a tall Chinese man from Vietnam.
And part of the psychology report included an
MMPI test.
Well, I knew you do not use MMPI
(04:59):
on a person with a Confucian cultural background.
So I quickly hired another psychologist to testify
against this guy.
And we go to court and mom's lawyer
puts the psychologist on the stand.
The 53-page report is given to the
judge.
And the lawyer starts to question.
(05:21):
The judge interrupts and he starts talking directly
to the parents.
And mom's lawyer kept interrupting until the judge
almost threw her out of court.
Anyway, so the judge did not listen to
the psychologist.
The judge did not read the 53-page
report.
The judge did not look at my wonderful
brief.
(05:43):
And he talked to the parents for 20
minutes and had an agreement between them.
And that was it.
Wow.
I drove back to my office, just stunned.
It was kind of like if anybody saw
the bridge on the River Kwai.
And I thought, why didn't we do this
in the first place?
Why the five months and the $5,000
(06:03):
in this?
I'm laughing with you, not at you.
And I don't know why I'm laughing.
Probably laughing to keep from crying.
Yeah.
And so that's when I started my thinking,
why not do this differently?
Let's be logical.
It's very interesting you would say that.
First of all, you said that you have
academic papers, probably peer-reviewed studies and so
(06:26):
forth dating back to 1975.
And 50 years later, here we are, right?
Right.
What's improved?
Exactly.
I'll tell you, when I went through my
divorce, I feel very strongly that the lady
I hired prolonged the process a lot longer
than it had to be.
I've said this on this show before, but
you and I are just getting to know
each other.
So I'll share it again here briefly.
(06:48):
My ex was crazy and she came to
court unprepared.
She didn't have a lawyer.
She hadn't even filed an answer yet.
And the judge was ready to rule a
hundred percent in my favor, give me custody
of my daughter and everything.
And my lawyer said, wait, stop.
I want five minutes with my client.
And we went out and convened and my
lawyer had me out of the goodness of
(07:11):
my heart, grant my soon to be ex
another two weeks to get her act together,
saying that would cause the judge to look
favorably on our case.
And when I said, but it's over, we
can walk now.
She goes, no, no, no, that's not how
it works.
And now I realize you're already chomping at
the bit, right?
Go for it.
Oh, well, let me tell you the difference
(07:33):
between mediation and litigated divorce.
When I learned about mediation, I was invited
by a sociologist who took mediation training to
be her attorney consultant.
And pretty soon I just started sitting in
the whole sessions.
And then I took my own mediation training
and I quit going to court.
(07:53):
43 years as a lawyer in second half
of it was no court.
I did mediated divorces in my office.
Anyway, so one couple came to me in
February and they had one house and two
pensions, three kids and spouses support for a
stay at home dad.
Before the end of April, they were single
(08:15):
again and their judgment filed with the court
and signed by a judge, February, March, April.
And another time, a man who lived in
the apartments across the street from my office,
saw my mediation sign, came over.
He wanted to mediate the rest of his
divorce.
His wife had hired a, who I said
must've been a nice lawyer because the first
(08:36):
thing that lawyer did was sit them down
and do a parenting plan.
They had two kids, but he wanted to
finish the rest of his divorce through mediation.
And I said, I can't contact your wife
because she's got a lawyer.
But I wrote for him an interim agreement
as to how to finish the divorce, including
hiring a certified divorce financial expert and a
(09:01):
neutral way as how to choose a financial
expert.
And he's offering 10,000 a month in
support, which was half of his income.
But they had a lot of investments and
they had property real estate.
Apparently wife was offended by this proposal because
she fired her nice lawyer and hired the
(09:23):
number one shark, Orange County.
And four years and $429,000 in attorney's
fees and five court appearances and two days
in negotiating and respective lawyer's offices.
The couple went to a coffee shop one
evening and spent all night and wrote their
(09:44):
own agreement.
Isn't that something after three and a half
years of the would be financial support amount
going to the lawyers?
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
Where I was going to go from there
with the story I was telling is that
if you fast forward about a decade and
a half, we had another problem with one
of our exes.
And of course, Emily and I are married
by then.
And the lawyer said, I don't know if
(10:06):
anybody's ever told you this, but here in
the state of Texas, at least judges will
agree on whatever the two of you agree
on.
Yes.
As long as it's within the confines of
the law.
I mean, they're not going to agree that
you get to murder the other person or
something like that, but any reasonable agreement.
Yes.
Right.
Exactly.
And the lawyers can argue it out, but
(10:27):
what did the two of you want?
What is going to be reasonable to the
two of you?
Almost exactly like what they're attempting to do
right now with Ukraine and Russia on a
grand global scale.
Yet the people who want things only their
own way and think that somebody's got to
win and somebody's got to lose, don't like
that mediation approach at all.
I mean, you get that even in other
(10:49):
venues and other situations outside of divorce.
And yes, even on a global scale.
I mean, if Russia doesn't pay and lose
and leave this whole aggression with their tail
between the legs thoroughly defeated, then Donald Trump
is some sort of Putin sympathizer when really
he said over and over, I just really
like to watch people stop dying here.
(11:10):
And that's the essence of mediation is, okay,
what's going to be agreeable to both sides
to stop this.
And until we come up with something, really,
we're just going to keep arguing and the
price to pay there.
I mean, in a divorce situation, in a
family dissolution situation, it's not necessarily with the
lives of soldiers and blood on the battlefield,
but you can feel that way sometimes, can
(11:31):
it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
My proposal was to start with a triage.
First of all, have an office or a
department that's called family services.
And you go to a family services department
and they'll do an intake, a triage.
And the reality is, is at least 3
(11:51):
.8% of people in divorce are high
conflict.
And high conflict people are not appropriate for
mediation.
And so the high conflict people must be
dealt with in a more structured manner.
But I think that the other people should
be, have a guided divorce.
(12:12):
And the services that they need, some people,
if they have a lot of assets, and
they need a forensic accountants or other appraisers,
those should be public employees that are accountable
to their work, but then paid for by
the people that need the services.
Now, there was one case that a forensic
(12:33):
accountant told me about that he represented the
wife, his fees were $100,000.
He said, but husband's accountant did most of
the work at his fees were $300,000.
And that divorce was held every Friday, the
trial, every Friday for five years in Long
(12:55):
Beach.
And we're paying for that.
We're paying for the judges and the bailiffs
and the clerks and the people are playing
games with it all.
It's hard to see how that benefits the
people who are the claimants.
Well, and then they pay the same filing
fee that a divorce that takes one year.
(13:16):
So they they're using up five times or
at least the amount of court time and
they're paying the same amount of money.
Just to argue out something that's probably going
to end up the same way in the
end that it would have after six months
or a year.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
That's just insane.
You mentioned three plus percent of people.
(13:37):
I don't remember the exact figure you gave
are just not going to respond well to
mediation.
They're high conflict people.
Briefly, tell us how you spot one of
those people so you know you're dealing with
them up front.
I mean, I would think it's obvious, but
just clarify that.
I'm not an expert in that, Scott.
Couldn't tell you.
I'll give you a reference is that the
number one expert in high conflict people is
(13:59):
Bill Eddy, who has a high conflict institute,
and he writes books for judges and people
on dealing with high conflict people.
For instance, one book he has is five
types of people who could ruin your life.
Well, I tell you what, I think I
might be a little bit more of an
expert on that than people might think.
(14:21):
Yeah.
If someone is just saying no to everything
or they've been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder
or some kind of psychosis or even the
most simplest suggestion like, hey, let's go out
for coffee, is just met with aggression.
If they have a history of being provoked
to physical or even verbal violence without much
(14:42):
provocation at all, I would think those would
fall under that category.
Domestic violence.
But there's another book that I bought online
and it's titled, it's got the most god
awful cover.
The name is Screw the Bitch, and it's
how to weaponize the court system.
(15:02):
I thought maybe it was an animal husbandry
book for dog lovers.
Yeah.
No, no, no.
It's all about how to screw the woman
using the court system.
Boy, I bet the men going their own
way love that book.
Yeah, but right now I paid for it
because I wanted it in my library as
(15:23):
an illustration, but it cost me 60 bucks
online.
Wow.
Someone's getting good money for that book.
It's a popular thing.
Yeah.
I have two ways I want to go
with this conversation.
And the first one is what you just
brought up is amazingly important to every guy
(15:45):
listening, because I think a lot of guys
are really under the impression, Judith, that anytime
a man enters into the family law system,
he's the one who's going to get screwed.
He's going to be the bitch, right?
And the women always find favor with the
lawyers.
They get full custody.
They get most of the man's wealth, and
he gets to be stuck with the house
payments until the house sells, and more men
(16:07):
who are divorced end up committing suicide.
And it's just poor me, a victimhood fest
for men who have to go through divorce.
And I know your opinion is a little
different on that, even though you're in California,
and I'd love to hear that.
And I think that's the first place we
ought to go next, because it seems like
it's what comes next here.
So talk about the reality of how men
fear in the family law system.
(16:29):
Well, it is especially notable that in cases
of domestic violence, that there's an organization that
was founded by a lawyer that teaches at
Berkeley, the Family Violence Appellate Project.
And the basis of their formation was that
in domestic abuse cases, 54% of the
(16:53):
time, men get custody of the children.
If they were the abuser.
Yes.
Yes.
And I know a woman who was a
police officer and is now an internationally known
custody expert.
She told me she thinks it's closer to
80% of the time.
Why is that?
What goes on?
Well, the man is so cool that he
(17:18):
shows up in court totally together, and he's
got the control of the money.
By this time, the woman is worn down
and distraught, and perhaps less articulate because she's
just in a panic over her life.
And afraid of the guy.
And yeah, and getting out of everything.
And if I say something bad about this
(17:40):
guy in court under oath, he may come
kill me two hours later.
Tell you this, is that educating judges and
psychologists, I say, probably doesn't help unless they're
initially prone to reasonableness in the first place.
There was a judge that wanted to pay
more attention to domestic violence.
(18:02):
He was in charge of the Family Law
Department.
And he said, you cannot be a referral
for a custody investigation as a psychologist, unless
you take this 12-hour domestic violence training.
And I had a client who was a
tall, nice-looking woman.
And she was a teacher.
(18:23):
And her husband was tall and good-looking.
And he was a lawyer.
And they had two kids.
But she said the violence started, the abuse
started, on their honeymoon in Hawaii.
Wow.
She lasted four years with him.
So there was a judge ordered a psychological
evaluation.
So I called the psychologist's office.
(18:44):
And I just wanted to be sure that
they were in the separate room because she
was very concerned.
And when there is abuse, you need to
have people in separate rooms if you're going
to mediate or try to mediate anything.
And the receptionist that answered the phone was
offended that I should tell them how to
do their business.
(19:05):
And my client came back.
And sure enough, the psychologist had her sitting
right next to him.
And she said to me, I couldn't say
what I wanted to say because I was
afraid he'd get even with me later.
Yep.
You betcha.
Right.
And then they're under oath in court.
And as you know and I know, people
(19:26):
who are clinically psychotic or even narcissistic can
pass polygraph tests, lying.
Because they feel like they're doing the right
thing in their own mind.
Oh, yeah.
If there was another woman that came to
me, I knew her mother when I was
lawyering.
So she came to me just to talk
to see what she could glean.
(19:46):
And her husband started the divorce by filing
and they separated.
And she had the little girl 11 year
old with her nine year old.
And he filed a report with the DA
and or the police department that she had
absconded with their child, child stealing.
So she was arrested.
(20:08):
And this whole thing was finally cleared.
But she's tainted now.
It even went through child services.
Now dad has custody.
He's disobeying the visitation orders.
And she hasn't seen her daughter for 11
months.
Well, lest I come off as anti man,
which is the last thing I want to
do on a podcast for men when I'm
trying to help guys be better men.
(20:30):
I want to be the first one to
clarify here.
This can go both ways.
Men can do this stuff to women and
vice versa.
It's not gender specific, which is our whole
point here, right?
Yeah.
Except that the woman's book I have on
how to deal with divorce is how to
conciliate, how to be reasonable as opposed to
(20:50):
screw the bitch.
Well, yeah.
I mean, I think we could all use
better terms, not such inflammatory terms, perhaps not
to sell as many books, but to be
more reasonable and have a more logical, helpful
discussion on the whole matter for sure.
But my own purely anecdotal evidence is that
having dated a lot of single moms when
(21:13):
I was a single dad.
And for all you guys out there who
are kind of anti the concept of dating
single moms, remember when I was single, I
had custody of my little five-year-old
daughter.
So I was a single dad.
So dating single moms, well, you know, Judith,
I got really good at meeting women who
had five-year-old daughters like I did
perpetrate a play date when it was actually
(21:34):
a date date for mom and dad.
But I was dating woman after woman who
was scrambling, Judith.
I mean, they had been divorced and they
got the kids and now they had to
get a job and feed the kids and
the husbands.
If they had child support, it wasn't much
and they were probably not paying it and
(21:55):
getting away with it.
This was all here in Texas.
Okay.
But I only met maybe two women who
were thriving as single moms.
And in both cases, it was not because
of daddy's money.
They're a baby daddy's money.
I should clarify.
Never did I ever see a situation where
a woman just took a guy for everything
he had and was living large in the
(22:17):
company of her kids.
And dad was somewhere out there suffering.
I never saw it.
It didn't really happen in my own marriage.
I mean, yes, my crazy ex got half
the income.
She got custody of our daughter until she
went nuts and got put away.
And then I got full custody.
But in the end, I think I came
out better than she did.
But a lot of guys, especially if they
(22:38):
want to find reasons to be angry at
women in general, will cite the family law
process as being patently unfair to men.
And, you know, I'll talk to guys and
I'll hear just about everything.
I'll hear, okay, well, my crazy ex hired
a lawyer and now she's getting the most
out of me and I'm getting the short
(22:59):
end of the stick.
But I'll also hear from guys who say,
well, you know what?
Finally, in many cases, they got mediation and
this is behind me and now I have
the means and the ability to move on.
And Scott helped me go out there and
date again and meet some women.
And their dating budgets are massive and they're
living pretty well.
So, I mean, it's not a foregone conclusion
that a guy is going to do better
(23:22):
or a woman's going to do better once
the dust clears from this divorce.
But what I think you'll agree with me
on, and I know this as a fact
because you've already talked about it and even
written a book on it, is that who
usually wins here is the legal system, the
lawyers.
Yes.
Yes.
I have a cartoon that said that his
(23:43):
lawyer got the condominium and the power boat
and my lawyer got the condo and something
else.
Exactly.
Exactly.
But I think, you know, with this, I
think it's the result of Hollywood movies.
Also lawyers pitting couples against each other for
personal profit.
Oh my God, yes.
(24:04):
I had a woman that I met at
some organization, a young woman, and she and
her husband were married for two years and
started her marriage, let's call it.
And they had a prenuptial agreement and their
divorce took four years.
And later on, they met at a party,
(24:26):
you know, sometime later and they started talking
and they found out that all the nasty
things that said the divorce process that were
allegedly said by one to the, about the
other were made up by the lawyers.
They'd never said those things.
That's horrible.
That's practically incredible.
Absolutely so.
(24:47):
And unethical.
I mean.
Oh really?
Attorneys should get disbarred for that sort of
activity.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, I'm looking back at my own
divorce and the interesting thing in retrospect is
my lawyer rolled her eyes and groaned out
loud when she found out who my ex
had hired as a lawyer.
Uh-huh.
Oh, he's terrible.
(25:08):
I can't work with him.
And as it turned out, they couldn't do
this little dance together that we're talking about
very well because he was too stupid and
incompetent to do it.
So she couldn't call him up and formulate
this plan on how to approach our divorce
together from his legal perspective and her legal
perspective combined.
And looking back, that's most likely what she
(25:29):
meant when she rolled her eyes and said,
oh, he's incompetent because if he's incompetent at
representing my now ex-wife, then it should
have been a slam dunk for her and
she should have been happy about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She was upset.
She couldn't work with them in exactly the
devious ways we're talking about.
Oh, two things.
One is one client that came to me,
(25:50):
said she had gone to a lawyer and
sat down and says, you know, we just
want to be friends when we're finished.
And the lawyer said to her, when we're
finished with this, you won't be friends.
At least she was honest.
Yeah.
She ran out of the room.
And in other cases, especially young women lawyers
were so hostile that I would not talk
(26:14):
to them on the phone because they would
twist whatever had been said.
I would deal with them only in writing.
Maybe the worst legal advice I've ever had
from a friend.
And it's not legal advice.
It was advice on how to hire a
lawyer was get a female lawyer because she'll
tear up your ex.
The older ones that I knew were fine.
They were reasonable and they knew the process,
(26:34):
but the new young ones and one older
lawyer says, you know, I think they're just
behaving like they think the men are.
That's probably true.
You know, I said there were several things
I wanted to ask you about.
The second one is a while back, you
dropped this phrase parenting plan, which presumably is
(26:56):
as opposed to a custody battle.
Yes.
That seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to
do.
And this is the first time I've ever
heard of such a thing.
So elaborate on that idea.
Oh, Texas has parenting.
Oh no.
Texas calls it guardianship, but they do not
say custody.
The Texas law, Wyoming Cowboys do parenting plants.
(27:17):
Tiger Woods in Florida did a parenting plan.
California does custody.
Well, what's the difference?
Well, think of the words.
I won custody.
I lost custody.
I was awarded custody.
Yeah.
Like the best interest of the child is
a proxy war.
It's like a battle for territory even.
(27:40):
Well, and in 1989, you think California is
a progressive state.
There was a psychologist who was expert in
custody and also taught at Berkeley Law School.
He wrote a new law changing the language
to something like parenting plan and the state
assembly passed that and the state senate rejected
(28:01):
it.
But there are 17 states that have changed
their family statutes to talk about parenting plan
or parental responsibility.
And Utah has gone one step even further
that I think is amazing.
As of last September, 2024, in the state
(28:21):
of Utah, if you have children, you cannot
file for a divorce until you have a
written parenting plan.
That is amazing.
So in other words, it's a more compassionate
and responsible approach to the children involved because
after all, the children aren't the ones getting
a divorce.
The children aren't the ones with the problem.
(28:41):
Right.
And the state offers a lot of forms
and advice online to help you with a
parenting plan.
And then if that's not enough, they offer
you mediation to help you with a parenting
plan.
And if all else fails, the judge will
write a parenting plan for you.
Oh, you probably wouldn't want that.
You want your own autonomy if you can
(29:02):
swing it, right?
Yes.
In Colorado, I was invited to address their
standing committee on family issues.
And I did a little research on Colorado
and their parenting plan state.
And I looked at the websites of their
lawyers that do family law, several lawyers that
do family law.
(29:23):
And every one of them right up front
advertised custody and visitation litigation.
And I told this to this committee, you
call it parenting plans, but the lawyers are
advertising litigation for custody.
And so I thought, well, now Utah has
(29:44):
avoided that by saying you can't do a
divorce without a parenting plan first.
Wow.
I would imagine there's some Latter-day Saints
influence on that legislation, isn't there?
I haven't researched that part of it, but
- Then again, the Mormons don't really believe
in divorce much at all.
Ah, they just believe in extra wives.
(30:05):
Well, there you go.
More importantly, I have another question for you.
Yes.
This is actually what piqued my interest in
having you on the show at all, Judith.
But now you've come and been so wonderful
and so charming and you have so much
wonderful wisdom on the whole concept of family
law.
I'm so glad you showed up because this
(30:26):
has been just a content-rich experience and
you've been wonderful so far.
But what indeed caught my eye was the
idea of a post-nuptial agreement.
I'd never heard of such a thing, but
it's something that you advocate and talk about
a lot.
So what's going on there?
What's up with that?
Well, first of all, people maybe don't understand
(30:47):
that marriage is a contract.
It is a contract.
And if you don't write- Whether we
like it or not.
And the state has a default contract unless
you write your own.
And the essence of a contract is a
mutual understanding.
And to be enforceable, you need it in
writing and signed and dated, signed by both
(31:08):
parties.
Well, hold on a second.
I don't like interrupting my guests, but I
want to clarify something here because I think
it's important for the guys who are listening,
most of us being laymen.
We recite vows to each other at a
spiritual level and consider that just de facto
standard derogatory stuff for having a marriage ceremony.
Yes.
(31:28):
But it is also a legally binding institution.
Yes.
Which, by the way, is my argument for
gay marriage.
I mean, whether you're Christian, gay or straight,
if it's going to be something that has
legal ramifications, in other words, we can file
jointly as a couple for tax purposes in
tax season or whatever.
Even back before it was popular, I always
(31:49):
thought that gay couples should have the same
rights and privileges thereof without perhaps having the
spiritual aspect of being in a conservative Christian
church even.
But that aside, we don't give a second
thought about the contract before God, assuming that's
how we are and that's what our faith
lends us to believe is necessary and right
(32:11):
and good and proper in that circumstance.
But it is always also a legally binding
contract.
I mean, you can get married at the
Justice of Peace, for goodness sake.
Yes.
So there's a lot of bad press, a
lot of bad juju given to the idea
of needing a prenuptial agreement, like we don't
trust each other.
But it is also, like you said, and
(32:32):
I'm just now realizing this based on how
you positioned it, that it's foolish to go
into any legally binding relationship or arrangement of
any kind without a contract.
Yes.
For example, in California, the state-mandated contract
is community property, which is all assets acquired
(32:54):
through work, your own efforts after marriage.
And there was a movie with George Clooney
and what's her name, Zeta Jones, where the
morning after the wedding night, now everything you
own is mine too.
Oh, I remember that movie.
I can't remember the name of it either,
but it was like a swindle she ran,
right?
Yeah, but it wasn't true because everything you
(33:17):
own remains your separate property unless you do
something to the state of California anyway.
But it made for an interesting plot complication.
Exactly.
In any case, so a contract in California,
it's community property and it's fiduciary relationship.
You owe to your spouse the highest good
(33:37):
faith and fair dealing.
And the courts these days in California are
taking that obligation very seriously.
Well, either you write your own or the
court's going to write it for you after
the fact.
Yeah.
And in California, there was one example that
a couple that were separated, but the woman
used community money to buy a lottery ticket
(33:58):
and she won the lottery and she didn't
tell her husband, soon to be ex, he
wasn't ex yet.
Anyway, he found out later and he took
her to court and the judge punished her
not by just dividing that winnings, but gave
the whole thing to husband.
Wow.
That's the consequences of a breach of fiduciary
(34:20):
relationship.
There's a movie about that too.
With Nick Cage and Rosie Pettis called, It
Could Happen to You, where he tries to
give the waitress half of his lottery ticket
if he wins.
And then Rosie Pettis is like the evil
soon to be ex who divorces him over
it and wants the whole lottery ticket.
That's what the whole movie's about.
Oh, they know this story.
(34:42):
Yeah.
Well, it's an old movie.
It's probably a 25 year old movie now,
but that is the plot of it.
Exactly.
Fascinating.
So what is a post nuptial agreement then?
So that's, you're changing your property relationships during
marriage.
One example in real life is that I
had a woman come to me for divorce
and she had established her own business and
(35:05):
it was a thriving business.
But 11 years before when she was starting
it, she had consulted with a lawyer and
said, I want this business to be my
separate property.
And he said, oh no, it has to
be community property.
Not true.
She and husband could have written an agreement
to say in writing that this would be
(35:25):
her separate property.
And so it's like during the marriage, one
spouse wants to go back to school or
get some kind of education and it's going
to cost money.
Well, maybe you can write a post-nup
to agree how that's going to be paid
for.
Or if they ever split up that the
community will be compensated for what they spent
(35:45):
on her or his books or tuition or
whatever, any kind of thing, or like starting
a business during marriage.
Or perhaps at some point, well, let's say
you inherit a house and you both want
to live there and you want the house
to remain your separate property, but the house
has a mortgage on it.
Well, during marriage, your earnings are community property.
(36:08):
So if you pay the mortgage with community
property money, that asset is going to have
a community interest.
So you could write an agreement to say
all payments on here, or you establish separate
bank accounts and you deposit your wages in
separate accounts.
(36:29):
And you have an agreement that these accounts
are separate property.
And then you pay the mortgage out of
a separate money.
So you can come up with these agreements
long after you're married, just because your circumstances
have changed.
Yes.
Yes.
And a judge will agree to it because
you've agreed to it.
Oh, well, yeah, the judge doesn't have any
choice.
Well, yeah, exactly.
(36:49):
Why not?
Well, there are some things in a prenup
that would not pass muster in a court
of law.
Such as what?
That would be something that impairs the ability
of the court to make judgments on the
best interest of the child.
Okay.
Or you can agree to waive spousal support
or alimony in a premarital agreement.
(37:11):
But that will not hold up.
One, if you did not have that agreement
seven days, at least before the marriage.
So you had time to consider it and
consult.
Or secondly, if the circumstances of your old
life, say you've been horribly maimed and disabled
and you cannot work.
(37:31):
The court might overthrow the agreement for no
spousal support in that case.
I see.
You know, it's funny.
I joked with you before we hit click
to record this.
Yes.
That I anticipated talking to you was going
to be a lot like talking to someone
who teaches you how to buy and sell
cars and gives you all the tricks of
the trade that you never even knew existed.
(37:52):
You know, like that you can actually buy
a car that's sitting on one dealership through
another dealership and you can actually trade in
your car to a different dealership than the
one you're buying it from.
And people don't even know that.
And once you know that and how it
all works, you'll always get a better deal
for a car.
And I feel like you've given us the
same conversation relative to marriage and divorce.
(38:12):
And I greatly appreciate it because I think
you've told us so many things guys never
even knew we were allowed to ask about
or ask for.
And it turns out so much of it
is always available.
Now, obviously, Judith, you have seven children, correct?
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
And you're all about families and you're all
about marriages staying together.
(38:34):
So you're not someone who's out there being
a divorce monger.
Obviously, the name of your book is the
Marriage License Handbook Rules of the Road for
Getting Married.
And I noticed that the word divorce doesn't
even present itself in that title.
You're talking about helping people get married on
the right track before saying I do.
(38:56):
So that's always been your attitude, right?
I noticed in all my 43 years of
doing divorces that a lot of times people
had not understood what they were getting into
in the first place.
Gee, you think?
I mean, a lot of women just want
the marriage.
They just want the wedding.
They just want a big pretty wedding and
their biological clock is ticking and they need
(39:17):
some guy to pop a baby into her.
No, in my case, it was my mother
that wanted it.
Oh, yeah.
The family pressure.
It gets to be crazy, especially in certain
cultures.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
That's crazy.
Well, the name of her book is indeed
the Marriage License Handbook Rules of the Road
for Getting Married.
And of course, her name is Judith Kalusny.
(39:38):
And you can find that book when you
go to mountatoppodcast.com front slash Amazon very
quickly and easily, because if you're listening to
this particular show within a few days of
its release, I put that book right at
the top of my Amazon influencer queue.
Also, when you go to mountatoppodcast.com front
slash Judith, J-U-D-I-T-H,
(39:59):
you will be teleported to Judith Kalusny's wonderful
website.
And what will they find when they get
there, Judith?
There's two websites, judithkalusny.com, where I have
many articles I wrote about mediation and ending
a marriage with reasonableness.
(40:20):
And dignity.
And dignity.
Yes.
I do have a second website, which is
the safe and same divorce project.com.
And that's about my thinking on doing divorces
in a whole different way.
So what I'll do is I'll point mountatoppodcast
.com front slash Judith to the aforementioned judith
kalusny.com.
(40:41):
And also gentlemen in the show notes, I
will link you to safe and sane divorce
project.com.
So you can find out Judith's thoughts on
that.
Judith Kalusny, thank you so much for joining
us.
This has been such a wonderful episode.
Well, thank you.
I enjoyed it.
Yes.
And yeah, it is.
It's wonderful information.
Every guy needs to know.
(41:01):
I mean, certainly before you get married.
And I know a lot of these guys
who are already married are going to be
glad to have this information in their back
pocket.
So yes, thank you so much.
Gentlemen, please go to mountatoppodcast.com.
Visit our three longtime sponsors, Jocko Willink's company
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Also Hero Soap Company, who has now shampoo
(41:21):
and conditioner for you guys made of the
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feminize your circuits or cause you to become
some sort of soy boy and make you
smell like a man finally, instead of making
you smell like whatever ivory and Irish spring
make you smell like, which smells more like
chemicals than manhood to me, but whatever.
So visit Hero Soap.
(41:42):
Also visit the guys at the key port
all when you go to mountatoppodcast.com.
Listen, gentlemen, some of you have not gotten
on my calendar and talked to me for
about a half an hour about what's going
on in your life with women.
I want to hear what's going on with
you.
Tell me what's on your mind.
If we can give you some results in
advance and give you something to emerge from
that conversation with, that's going to help your
(42:03):
life immediately.
That would be my goal.
And if it makes sense to put together
a plan of action to get you better
with women and help you be the greatest
guy you've ever been and can possibly be
through coaching, we'll do that too.
All of that is there for you and
more at mountantoppodcast.com.
And until I talk to you again real
soon, this is Scott McKay from X and
(42:24):
Y Communications in San Antonio, Texas.
Be good out there.
The Mountaintop Podcast is produced by X and
Y Communications, all rights reserved worldwide.
Be sure to visit www.mountaintoppodcast.com for
(42:47):
show notes.
And while you're there, sign up for the
free X and Y Communications newsletter for men.
This is Ed Roy Odom speaking for The
Mountaintop Podcast.
Live from the mist-enshrouded mountaintop fortress that
is X and Y Communications Headquarters, you're listening
to the World Famous Mountaintop Podcast.
And now, here's your host, Scott McKay.
All right.
How's it going, gentlemen?
Welcome to yet another episode of the World
Famous Mountaintop Podcast.
As always, I'm your host, Scott McKay.
(00:25):
You can find me on TikTok, on YouTube,
on True Social, and on X, at Scott
McKay, and on Instagram, at realscottmckay.
And the website, as always, is mountaintoppodcast.com.
And gentlemen, if you haven't already joined the
Mountaintop Summit on Facebook, we're looking for you
(00:46):
there.
Join it.
It's not your typical men's group where everybody's
complaining about their relationships, and everybody's just telling
guys they've never met before to divorce their
wife and kick them with a curb because
a guy made a post on Facebook.
Nah, we don't do anything like that.
I'm not a self-absorbed guy who comes
on and basically bans guys and tells them
they're wrong every time they post something.
(01:06):
Nah, we don't do that.
We have lots of fun.
We admire women.
We enjoy women.
We get to be better men, in the
truest sense of the word, all at the
Mountaintop Summit on Facebook.
With me today is a new friend of
mine.
You're going to adore her.
She's very wonderful.
She comes from Fullerton, California, which is in
the OC out there in California.
(01:28):
And check this out, guys.
Judith Kaluzny is a divorce lawyer and mediator.
She's retired these days.
And she is on a mission to not
just reform family law, but to overthrow it.
I know that's going to be music to
a lot of your guys' ears after what
some of you have been through.
And with that in mind, I really, really
(01:49):
am looking forward to everything she's going to
bring to the table today.
From California, Judith Kaluzny, welcome to the show.
Oh, thank you very much.
Let me explain why I say overthrow instead
of reform.
Please, jump right into it.
In my research, I've got a stack of
books on how many feet high of people
that wrote about divorce reform.
(02:10):
I mean, books back to 1975.
And all these books have as many as
35 pages of listing their sources, their footnotes.
These books are written by academics.
And academics really don't accomplish changes that are
(02:30):
effective.
Ouch.
You don't pull any punches, do you?
You go right after them.
We have to start with a whole different
premise.
See, all the reforms that I've encountered start
with a court process.
And when you talk about court, that sets
(02:51):
up a win-lose sort of mindset that
sets up a mindset of proving you're right
and the other side is wrong.
Even if they mean to guide you into
a mediation, but still that you have to
go to a courthouse to file.
Scott, I've been thinking about this for 30
years.
(03:11):
And let me tell you how I started
thinking about this.
Back in the day, I was contacted by
a deputy sheriff in regard to establishing a
parental relationship.
He had had a child out of wedlock.
And he was now, the child was about
four years old.
(03:32):
But he was now married and had his
own child.
But the grandmother of this child out of
wedlock called him up and said, George, your
son is living in a drug house.
And if you don't go get him, I
will.
And so he did go get his son
and he came to me to establish the
(03:53):
legal parental relationship.
And in that process, we also met with
the mother and arranged supervised visits with the
son while my guy got custody of the
child.
So two months later, this woman's mother hired
a lawyer for her daughter.
And they went to court claiming that now
(04:16):
that I've had more time with my son,
two months worth, I want custody.
Well, the judge appointed a psychologist to do
a study.
The psychologist was very offensive.
My guy says his wife almost divorced him
over the stress.
The report, the psychologist took, was it three
or five months, wrote a 53-page report,
(04:38):
cost $5,000.
This was 30 years ago.
And on top of that, my guy was
a tall Chinese man from Vietnam.
And part of the psychology report included an
MMPI test.
Well, I knew you do not use MMPI
(04:59):
on a person with a Confucian cultural background.
So I quickly hired another psychologist to testify
against this guy.
And we go to court and mom's lawyer
puts the psychologist on the stand.
The 53-page report is given to the
judge.
And the lawyer starts to question.
(05:21):
The judge interrupts and he starts talking directly
to the parents.
And mom's lawyer kept interrupting until the judge
almost threw her out of court.
Anyway, so the judge did not listen to
the psychologist.
The judge did not read the 53-page
report.
The judge did not look at my wonderful
brief.
(05:43):
And he talked to the parents for 20
minutes and had an agreement between them.
And that was it.
Wow.
I drove back to my office, just stunned.
It was kind of like if anybody saw
the bridge on the River Kwai.
And I thought, why didn't we do this
in the first place?
Why the five months and the $5,000
(06:03):
in this?
I'm laughing with you, not at you.
And I don't know why I'm laughing.
Probably laughing to keep from crying.
Yeah.
And so that's when I started my thinking,
why not do this differently?
Let's be logical.
It's very interesting you would say that.
First of all, you said that you have
academic papers, probably peer-reviewed studies and so
(06:26):
forth dating back to 1975.
And 50 years later, here we are, right?
Right.
What's improved?
Exactly.
I'll tell you, when I went through my
divorce, I feel very strongly that the lady
I hired prolonged the process a lot longer
than it had to be.
I've said this on this show before, but
you and I are just getting to know
each other.
So I'll share it again here briefly.
(06:48):
My ex was crazy and she came to
court unprepared.
She didn't have a lawyer.
She hadn't even filed an answer yet.
And the judge was ready to rule a
hundred percent in my favor, give me custody
of my daughter and everything.
And my lawyer said, wait, stop.
I want five minutes with my client.
And we went out and convened and my
lawyer had me out of the goodness of
(07:11):
my heart, grant my soon to be ex
another two weeks to get her act together,
saying that would cause the judge to look
favorably on our case.
And when I said, but it's over, we
can walk now.
She goes, no, no, no, that's not how
it works.
And now I realize you're already chomping at
the bit, right?
Go for it.
Oh, well, let me tell you the difference
(07:33):
between mediation and litigated divorce.
When I learned about mediation, I was invited
by a sociologist who took mediation training to
be her attorney consultant.
And pretty soon I just started sitting in
the whole sessions.
And then I took my own mediation training
and I quit going to court.
(07:53):
43 years as a lawyer in second half
of it was no court.
I did mediated divorces in my office.
Anyway, so one couple came to me in
February and they had one house and two
pensions, three kids and spouses support for a
stay at home dad.
Before the end of April, they were single
(08:15):
again and their judgment filed with the court
and signed by a judge, February, March, April.
And another time, a man who lived in
the apartments across the street from my office,
saw my mediation sign, came over.
He wanted to mediate the rest of his
divorce.
His wife had hired a, who I said
must've been a nice lawyer because the first
(08:36):
thing that lawyer did was sit them down
and do a parenting plan.
They had two kids, but he wanted to
finish the rest of his divorce through mediation.
And I said, I can't contact your wife
because she's got a lawyer.
But I wrote for him an interim agreement
as to how to finish the divorce, including
hiring a certified divorce financial expert and a
(09:01):
neutral way as how to choose a financial
expert.
And he's offering 10,000 a month in
support, which was half of his income.
But they had a lot of investments and
they had property real estate.
Apparently wife was offended by this proposal because
she fired her nice lawyer and hired the
(09:23):
number one shark, Orange County.
And four years and $429,000 in attorney's
fees and five court appearances and two days
in negotiating and respective lawyer's offices.
The couple went to a coffee shop one
evening and spent all night and wrote their
(09:44):
own agreement.
Isn't that something after three and a half
years of the would be financial support amount
going to the lawyers?
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
Where I was going to go from there
with the story I was telling is that
if you fast forward about a decade and
a half, we had another problem with one
of our exes.
And of course, Emily and I are married
by then.
And the lawyer said, I don't know if
(10:06):
anybody's ever told you this, but here in
the state of Texas, at least judges will
agree on whatever the two of you agree
on.
Yes.
As long as it's within the confines of
the law.
I mean, they're not going to agree that
you get to murder the other person or
something like that, but any reasonable agreement.
Yes.
Right.
Exactly.
And the lawyers can argue it out, but
(10:27):
what did the two of you want?
What is going to be reasonable to the
two of you?
Almost exactly like what they're attempting to do
right now with Ukraine and Russia on a
grand global scale.
Yet the people who want things only their
own way and think that somebody's got to
win and somebody's got to lose, don't like
that mediation approach at all.
I mean, you get that even in other
(10:49):
venues and other situations outside of divorce.
And yes, even on a global scale.
I mean, if Russia doesn't pay and lose
and leave this whole aggression with their tail
between the legs thoroughly defeated, then Donald Trump
is some sort of Putin sympathizer when really
he said over and over, I just really
like to watch people stop dying here.
(11:10):
And that's the essence of mediation is, okay,
what's going to be agreeable to both sides
to stop this.
And until we come up with something, really,
we're just going to keep arguing and the
price to pay there.
I mean, in a divorce situation, in a
family dissolution situation, it's not necessarily with the
lives of soldiers and blood on the battlefield,
but you can feel that way sometimes, can
(11:31):
it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
My proposal was to start with a triage.
First of all, have an office or a
department that's called family services.
And you go to a family services department
and they'll do an intake, a triage.
And the reality is, is at least 3
(11:51):
.8% of people in divorce are high
conflict.
And high conflict people are not appropriate for
mediation.
And so the high conflict people must be
dealt with in a more structured manner.
But I think that the other people should
be, have a guided divorce.
(12:12):
And the services that they need, some people,
if they have a lot of assets, and
they need a forensic accountants or other appraisers,
those should be public employees that are accountable
to their work, but then paid for by
the people that need the services.
Now, there was one case that a forensic
(12:33):
accountant told me about that he represented the
wife, his fees were $100,000.
He said, but husband's accountant did most of
the work at his fees were $300,000.
And that divorce was held every Friday, the
trial, every Friday for five years in Long
(12:55):
Beach.
And we're paying for that.
We're paying for the judges and the bailiffs
and the clerks and the people are playing
games with it all.
It's hard to see how that benefits the
people who are the claimants.
Well, and then they pay the same filing
fee that a divorce that takes one year.
(13:16):
So they they're using up five times or
at least the amount of court time and
they're paying the same amount of money.
Just to argue out something that's probably going
to end up the same way in the
end that it would have after six months
or a year.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
That's just insane.
You mentioned three plus percent of people.
(13:37):
I don't remember the exact figure you gave
are just not going to respond well to
mediation.
They're high conflict people.
Briefly, tell us how you spot one of
those people so you know you're dealing with
them up front.
I mean, I would think it's obvious, but
just clarify that.
I'm not an expert in that, Scott.
Couldn't tell you.
I'll give you a reference is that the
number one expert in high conflict people is
(13:59):
Bill Eddy, who has a high conflict institute,
and he writes books for judges and people
on dealing with high conflict people.
For instance, one book he has is five
types of people who could ruin your life.
Well, I tell you what, I think I
might be a little bit more of an
expert on that than people might think.
(14:21):
Yeah.
If someone is just saying no to everything
or they've been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder
or some kind of psychosis or even the
most simplest suggestion like, hey, let's go out
for coffee, is just met with aggression.
If they have a history of being provoked
to physical or even verbal violence without much
(14:42):
provocation at all, I would think those would
fall under that category.
Domestic violence.
But there's another book that I bought online
and it's titled, it's got the most god
awful cover.
The name is Screw the Bitch, and it's
how to weaponize the court system.
(15:02):
I thought maybe it was an animal husbandry
book for dog lovers.
Yeah.
No, no, no.
It's all about how to screw the woman
using the court system.
Boy, I bet the men going their own
way love that book.
Yeah, but right now I paid for it
because I wanted it in my library as
(15:23):
an illustration, but it cost me 60 bucks
online.
Wow.
Someone's getting good money for that book.
It's a popular thing.
Yeah.
I have two ways I want to go
with this conversation.
And the first one is what you just
brought up is amazingly important to every guy
(15:45):
listening, because I think a lot of guys
are really under the impression, Judith, that anytime
a man enters into the family law system,
he's the one who's going to get screwed.
He's going to be the bitch, right?
And the women always find favor with the
lawyers.
They get full custody.
They get most of the man's wealth, and
he gets to be stuck with the house
payments until the house sells, and more men
(16:07):
who are divorced end up committing suicide.
And it's just poor me, a victimhood fest
for men who have to go through divorce.
And I know your opinion is a little
different on that, even though you're in California,
and I'd love to hear that.
And I think that's the first place we
ought to go next, because it seems like
it's what comes next here.
So talk about the reality of how men
fear in the family law system.
(16:29):
Well, it is especially notable that in cases
of domestic violence, that there's an organization that
was founded by a lawyer that teaches at
Berkeley, the Family Violence Appellate Project.
And the basis of their formation was that
in domestic abuse cases, 54% of the
(16:53):
time, men get custody of the children.
If they were the abuser.
Yes.
Yes.
And I know a woman who was a
police officer and is now an internationally known
custody expert.
She told me she thinks it's closer to
80% of the time.
Why is that?
What goes on?
Well, the man is so cool that he
(17:18):
shows up in court totally together, and he's
got the control of the money.
By this time, the woman is worn down
and distraught, and perhaps less articulate because she's
just in a panic over her life.
And afraid of the guy.
And yeah, and getting out of everything.
And if I say something bad about this
(17:40):
guy in court under oath, he may come
kill me two hours later.
Tell you this, is that educating judges and
psychologists, I say, probably doesn't help unless they're
initially prone to reasonableness in the first place.
There was a judge that wanted to pay
more attention to domestic violence.
(18:02):
He was in charge of the Family Law
Department.
And he said, you cannot be a referral
for a custody investigation as a psychologist, unless
you take this 12-hour domestic violence training.
And I had a client who was a
tall, nice-looking woman.
And she was a teacher.
(18:23):
And her husband was tall and good-looking.
And he was a lawyer.
And they had two kids.
But she said the violence started, the abuse
started, on their honeymoon in Hawaii.
Wow.
She lasted four years with him.
So there was a judge ordered a psychological
evaluation.
So I called the psychologist's office.
(18:44):
And I just wanted to be sure that
they were in the separate room because she
was very concerned.
And when there is abuse, you need to
have people in separate rooms if you're going
to mediate or try to mediate anything.
And the receptionist that answered the phone was
offended that I should tell them how to
do their business.
(19:05):
And my client came back.
And sure enough, the psychologist had her sitting
right next to him.
And she said to me, I couldn't say
what I wanted to say because I was
afraid he'd get even with me later.
Yep.
You betcha.
Right.
And then they're under oath in court.
And as you know and I know, people
(19:26):
who are clinically psychotic or even narcissistic can
pass polygraph tests, lying.
Because they feel like they're doing the right
thing in their own mind.
Oh, yeah.
If there was another woman that came to
me, I knew her mother when I was
lawyering.
So she came to me just to talk
to see what she could glean.
(19:46):
And her husband started the divorce by filing
and they separated.
And she had the little girl 11 year
old with her nine year old.
And he filed a report with the DA
and or the police department that she had
absconded with their child, child stealing.
So she was arrested.
(20:08):
And this whole thing was finally cleared.
But she's tainted now.
It even went through child services.
Now dad has custody.
He's disobeying the visitation orders.
And she hasn't seen her daughter for 11
months.
Well, lest I come off as anti man,
which is the last thing I want to
do on a podcast for men when I'm
trying to help guys be better men.
(20:30):
I want to be the first one to
clarify here.
This can go both ways.
Men can do this stuff to women and
vice versa.
It's not gender specific, which is our whole
point here, right?
Yeah.
Except that the woman's book I have on
how to deal with divorce is how to
conciliate, how to be reasonable as opposed to
(20:50):
screw the bitch.
Well, yeah.
I mean, I think we could all use
better terms, not such inflammatory terms, perhaps not
to sell as many books, but to be
more reasonable and have a more logical, helpful
discussion on the whole matter for sure.
But my own purely anecdotal evidence is that
having dated a lot of single moms when
(21:13):
I was a single dad.
And for all you guys out there who
are kind of anti the concept of dating
single moms, remember when I was single, I
had custody of my little five-year-old
daughter.
So I was a single dad.
So dating single moms, well, you know, Judith,
I got really good at meeting women who
had five-year-old daughters like I did
perpetrate a play date when it was actually
(21:34):
a date date for mom and dad.
But I was dating woman after woman who
was scrambling, Judith.
I mean, they had been divorced and they
got the kids and now they had to
get a job and feed the kids and
the husbands.
If they had child support, it wasn't much
and they were probably not paying it and
(21:55):
getting away with it.
This was all here in Texas.
Okay.
But I only met maybe two women who
were thriving as single moms.
And in both cases, it was not because
of daddy's money.
They're a baby daddy's money.
I should clarify.
Never did I ever see a situation where
a woman just took a guy for everything
he had and was living large in the
(22:17):
company of her kids.
And dad was somewhere out there suffering.
I never saw it.
It didn't really happen in my own marriage.
I mean, yes, my crazy ex got half
the income.
She got custody of our daughter until she
went nuts and got put away.
And then I got full custody.
But in the end, I think I came
out better than she did.
But a lot of guys, especially if they
(22:38):
want to find reasons to be angry at
women in general, will cite the family law
process as being patently unfair to men.
And, you know, I'll talk to guys and
I'll hear just about everything.
I'll hear, okay, well, my crazy ex hired
a lawyer and now she's getting the most
out of me and I'm getting the short
(22:59):
end of the stick.
But I'll also hear from guys who say,
well, you know what?
Finally, in many cases, they got mediation and
this is behind me and now I have
the means and the ability to move on.
And Scott helped me go out there and
date again and meet some women.
And their dating budgets are massive and they're
living pretty well.
So, I mean, it's not a foregone conclusion
that a guy is going to do better
(23:22):
or a woman's going to do better once
the dust clears from this divorce.
But what I think you'll agree with me
on, and I know this as a fact
because you've already talked about it and even
written a book on it, is that who
usually wins here is the legal system, the
lawyers.
Yes.
Yes.
I have a cartoon that said that his
(23:43):
lawyer got the condominium and the power boat
and my lawyer got the condo and something
else.
Exactly.
Exactly.
But I think, you know, with this, I
think it's the result of Hollywood movies.
Also lawyers pitting couples against each other for
personal profit.
Oh my God, yes.
(24:04):
I had a woman that I met at
some organization, a young woman, and she and
her husband were married for two years and
started her marriage, let's call it.
And they had a prenuptial agreement and their
divorce took four years.
And later on, they met at a party,
(24:26):
you know, sometime later and they started talking
and they found out that all the nasty
things that said the divorce process that were
allegedly said by one to the, about the
other were made up by the lawyers.
They'd never said those things.
That's horrible.
That's practically incredible.
Absolutely so.
(24:47):
And unethical.
I mean.
Oh really?
Attorneys should get disbarred for that sort of
activity.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, I'm looking back at my own
divorce and the interesting thing in retrospect is
my lawyer rolled her eyes and groaned out
loud when she found out who my ex
had hired as a lawyer.
Uh-huh.
Oh, he's terrible.
(25:08):
I can't work with him.
And as it turned out, they couldn't do
this little dance together that we're talking about
very well because he was too stupid and
incompetent to do it.
So she couldn't call him up and formulate
this plan on how to approach our divorce
together from his legal perspective and her legal
perspective combined.
And looking back, that's most likely what she
(25:29):
meant when she rolled her eyes and said,
oh, he's incompetent because if he's incompetent at
representing my now ex-wife, then it should
have been a slam dunk for her and
she should have been happy about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She was upset.
She couldn't work with them in exactly the
devious ways we're talking about.
Oh, two things.
One is one client that came to me,
(25:50):
said she had gone to a lawyer and
sat down and says, you know, we just
want to be friends when we're finished.
And the lawyer said to her, when we're
finished with this, you won't be friends.
At least she was honest.
Yeah.
She ran out of the room.
And in other cases, especially young women lawyers
were so hostile that I would not talk
(26:14):
to them on the phone because they would
twist whatever had been said.
I would deal with them only in writing.
Maybe the worst legal advice I've ever had
from a friend.
And it's not legal advice.
It was advice on how to hire a
lawyer was get a female lawyer because she'll
tear up your ex.
The older ones that I knew were fine.
They were reasonable and they knew the process,
(26:34):
but the new young ones and one older
lawyer says, you know, I think they're just
behaving like they think the men are.
That's probably true.
You know, I said there were several things
I wanted to ask you about.
The second one is a while back, you
dropped this phrase parenting plan, which presumably is
(26:56):
as opposed to a custody battle.
Yes.
That seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to
do.
And this is the first time I've ever
heard of such a thing.
So elaborate on that idea.
Oh, Texas has parenting.
Oh no.
Texas calls it guardianship, but they do not
say custody.
The Texas law, Wyoming Cowboys do parenting plants.
(27:17):
Tiger Woods in Florida did a parenting plan.
California does custody.
Well, what's the difference?
Well, think of the words.
I won custody.
I lost custody.
I was awarded custody.
Yeah.
Like the best interest of the child is
a proxy war.
It's like a battle for territory even.
(27:40):
Well, and in 1989, you think California is
a progressive state.
There was a psychologist who was expert in
custody and also taught at Berkeley Law School.
He wrote a new law changing the language
to something like parenting plan and the state
assembly passed that and the state senate rejected
(28:01):
it.
But there are 17 states that have changed
their family statutes to talk about parenting plan
or parental responsibility.
And Utah has gone one step even further
that I think is amazing.
As of last September, 2024, in the state
(28:21):
of Utah, if you have children, you cannot
file for a divorce until you have a
written parenting plan.
That is amazing.
So in other words, it's a more compassionate
and responsible approach to the children involved because
after all, the children aren't the ones getting
a divorce.
The children aren't the ones with the problem.
(28:41):
Right.
And the state offers a lot of forms
and advice online to help you with a
parenting plan.
And then if that's not enough, they offer
you mediation to help you with a parenting
plan.
And if all else fails, the judge will
write a parenting plan for you.
Oh, you probably wouldn't want that.
You want your own autonomy if you can
(29:02):
swing it, right?
Yes.
In Colorado, I was invited to address their
standing committee on family issues.
And I did a little research on Colorado
and their parenting plan state.
And I looked at the websites of their
lawyers that do family law, several lawyers that
do family law.
(29:23):
And every one of them right up front
advertised custody and visitation litigation.
And I told this to this committee, you
call it parenting plans, but the lawyers are
advertising litigation for custody.
And so I thought, well, now Utah has
(29:44):
avoided that by saying you can't do a
divorce without a parenting plan first.
Wow.
I would imagine there's some Latter-day Saints
influence on that legislation, isn't there?
I haven't researched that part of it, but
- Then again, the Mormons don't really believe
in divorce much at all.
Ah, they just believe in extra wives.
(30:05):
Well, there you go.
More importantly, I have another question for you.
Yes.
This is actually what piqued my interest in
having you on the show at all, Judith.
But now you've come and been so wonderful
and so charming and you have so much
wonderful wisdom on the whole concept of family
law.
I'm so glad you showed up because this
(30:26):
has been just a content-rich experience and
you've been wonderful so far.
But what indeed caught my eye was the
idea of a post-nuptial agreement.
I'd never heard of such a thing, but
it's something that you advocate and talk about
a lot.
So what's going on there?
What's up with that?
Well, first of all, people maybe don't understand
(30:47):
that marriage is a contract.
It is a contract.
And if you don't write- Whether we
like it or not.
And the state has a default contract unless
you write your own.
And the essence of a contract is a
mutual understanding.
And to be enforceable, you need it in
writing and signed and dated, signed by both
(31:08):
parties.
Well, hold on a second.
I don't like interrupting my guests, but I
want to clarify something here because I think
it's important for the guys who are listening,
most of us being laymen.
We recite vows to each other at a
spiritual level and consider that just de facto
standard derogatory stuff for having a marriage ceremony.
Yes.
(31:28):
But it is also a legally binding institution.
Yes.
Which, by the way, is my argument for
gay marriage.
I mean, whether you're Christian, gay or straight,
if it's going to be something that has
legal ramifications, in other words, we can file
jointly as a couple for tax purposes in
tax season or whatever.
Even back before it was popular, I always
(31:49):
thought that gay couples should have the same
rights and privileges thereof without perhaps having the
spiritual aspect of being in a conservative Christian
church even.
But that aside, we don't give a second
thought about the contract before God, assuming that's
how we are and that's what our faith
lends us to believe is necessary and right
(32:11):
and good and proper in that circumstance.
But it is always also a legally binding
contract.
I mean, you can get married at the
Justice of Peace, for goodness sake.
Yes.
So there's a lot of bad press, a
lot of bad juju given to the idea
of needing a prenuptial agreement, like we don't
trust each other.
But it is also, like you said, and
(32:32):
I'm just now realizing this based on how
you positioned it, that it's foolish to go
into any legally binding relationship or arrangement of
any kind without a contract.
Yes.
For example, in California, the state-mandated contract
is community property, which is all assets acquired
(32:54):
through work, your own efforts after marriage.
And there was a movie with George Clooney
and what's her name, Zeta Jones, where the
morning after the wedding night, now everything you
own is mine too.
Oh, I remember that movie.
I can't remember the name of it either,
but it was like a swindle she ran,
right?
Yeah, but it wasn't true because everything you
(33:17):
own remains your separate property unless you do
something to the state of California anyway.
But it made for an interesting plot complication.
Exactly.
In any case, so a contract in California,
it's community property and it's fiduciary relationship.
You owe to your spouse the highest good
(33:37):
faith and fair dealing.
And the courts these days in California are
taking that obligation very seriously.
Well, either you write your own or the
court's going to write it for you after
the fact.
Yeah.
And in California, there was one example that
a couple that were separated, but the woman
used community money to buy a lottery ticket
(33:58):
and she won the lottery and she didn't
tell her husband, soon to be ex, he
wasn't ex yet.
Anyway, he found out later and he took
her to court and the judge punished her
not by just dividing that winnings, but gave
the whole thing to husband.
Wow.
That's the consequences of a breach of fiduciary
(34:20):
relationship.
There's a movie about that too.
With Nick Cage and Rosie Pettis called, It
Could Happen to You, where he tries to
give the waitress half of his lottery ticket
if he wins.
And then Rosie Pettis is like the evil
soon to be ex who divorces him over
it and wants the whole lottery ticket.
That's what the whole movie's about.
Oh, they know this story.
(34:42):
Yeah.
Well, it's an old movie.
It's probably a 25 year old movie now,
but that is the plot of it.
Exactly.
Fascinating.
So what is a post nuptial agreement then?
So that's, you're changing your property relationships during
marriage.
One example in real life is that I
had a woman come to me for divorce
and she had established her own business and
(35:05):
it was a thriving business.
But 11 years before when she was starting
it, she had consulted with a lawyer and
said, I want this business to be my
separate property.
And he said, oh no, it has to
be community property.
Not true.
She and husband could have written an agreement
to say in writing that this would be
(35:25):
her separate property.
And so it's like during the marriage, one
spouse wants to go back to school or
get some kind of education and it's going
to cost money.
Well, maybe you can write a post-nup
to agree how that's going to be paid
for.
Or if they ever split up that the
community will be compensated for what they spent
(35:45):
on her or his books or tuition or
whatever, any kind of thing, or like starting
a business during marriage.
Or perhaps at some point, well, let's say
you inherit a house and you both want
to live there and you want the house
to remain your separate property, but the house
has a mortgage on it.
Well, during marriage, your earnings are community property.
(36:08):
So if you pay the mortgage with community
property money, that asset is going to have
a community interest.
So you could write an agreement to say
all payments on here, or you establish separate
bank accounts and you deposit your wages in
separate accounts.
(36:29):
And you have an agreement that these accounts
are separate property.
And then you pay the mortgage out of
a separate money.
So you can come up with these agreements
long after you're married, just because your circumstances
have changed.
Yes.
Yes.
And a judge will agree to it because
you've agreed to it.
Oh, well, yeah, the judge doesn't have any
choice.
Well, yeah, exactly.
(36:49):
Why not?
Well, there are some things in a prenup
that would not pass muster in a court
of law.
Such as what?
That would be something that impairs the ability
of the court to make judgments on the
best interest of the child.
Okay.
Or you can agree to waive spousal support
or alimony in a premarital agreement.
(37:11):
But that will not hold up.
One, if you did not have that agreement
seven days, at least before the marriage.
So you had time to consider it and
consult.
Or secondly, if the circumstances of your old
life, say you've been horribly maimed and disabled
and you cannot work.
(37:31):
The court might overthrow the agreement for no
spousal support in that case.
I see.
You know, it's funny.
I joked with you before we hit click
to record this.
Yes.
That I anticipated talking to you was going
to be a lot like talking to someone
who teaches you how to buy and sell
cars and gives you all the tricks of
the trade that you never even knew existed.
(37:52):
You know, like that you can actually buy
a car that's sitting on one dealership through
another dealership and you can actually trade in
your car to a different dealership than the
one you're buying it from.
And people don't even know that.
And once you know that and how it
all works, you'll always get a better deal
for a car.
And I feel like you've given us the
same conversation relative to marriage and divorce.
(38:12):
And I greatly appreciate it because I think
you've told us so many things guys never
even knew we were allowed to ask about
or ask for.
And it turns out so much of it
is always available.
Now, obviously, Judith, you have seven children, correct?
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
And you're all about families and you're all
about marriages staying together.
(38:34):
So you're not someone who's out there being
a divorce monger.
Obviously, the name of your book is the
Marriage License Handbook Rules of the Road for
Getting Married.
And I noticed that the word divorce doesn't
even present itself in that title.
You're talking about helping people get married on
the right track before saying I do.
(38:56):
So that's always been your attitude, right?
I noticed in all my 43 years of
doing divorces that a lot of times people
had not understood what they were getting into
in the first place.
Gee, you think?
I mean, a lot of women just want
the marriage.
They just want the wedding.
They just want a big pretty wedding and
their biological clock is ticking and they need
(39:17):
some guy to pop a baby into her.
No, in my case, it was my mother
that wanted it.
Oh, yeah.
The family pressure.
It gets to be crazy, especially in certain
cultures.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
That's crazy.
Well, the name of her book is indeed
the Marriage License Handbook Rules of the Road
for Getting Married.
And of course, her name is Judith Kalusny.
(39:38):
And you can find that book when you
go to mountatoppodcast.com front slash Amazon very
quickly and easily, because if you're listening to
this particular show within a few days of
its release, I put that book right at
the top of my Amazon influencer queue.
Also, when you go to mountatoppodcast.com front
slash Judith, J-U-D-I-T-H,
(39:59):
you will be teleported to Judith Kalusny's wonderful
website.
And what will they find when they get
there, Judith?
There's two websites, judithkalusny.com, where I have
many articles I wrote about mediation and ending
a marriage with reasonableness.
(40:20):
And dignity.
And dignity.
Yes.
I do have a second website, which is
the safe and same divorce project.com.
And that's about my thinking on doing divorces
in a whole different way.
So what I'll do is I'll point mountatoppodcast
.com front slash Judith to the aforementioned judith
kalusny.com.
(40:41):
And also gentlemen in the show notes, I
will link you to safe and sane divorce
project.com.
So you can find out Judith's thoughts on
that.
Judith Kalusny, thank you so much for joining
us.
This has been such a wonderful episode.
Well, thank you.
I enjoyed it.
Yes.
And yeah, it is.
It's wonderful information.
Every guy needs to know.
(41:01):
I mean, certainly before you get married.
And I know a lot of these guys
who are already married are going to be
glad to have this information in their back
pocket.
So yes, thank you so much.
Gentlemen, please go to mountatoppodcast.com.
Visit our three longtime sponsors, Jocko Willink's company
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Also Hero Soap Company, who has now shampoo
(41:21):
and conditioner for you guys made of the
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you smell like whatever ivory and Irish spring
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So visit Hero Soap.
(41:42):
Also visit the guys at the key port
all when you go to mountatoppodcast.com.
Listen, gentlemen, some of you have not gotten
on my calendar and talked to me for
about a half an hour about what's going
on in your life with women.
I want to hear what's going on with
you.
Tell me what's on your mind.
If we can give you some results in
advance and give you something to emerge from
that conversation with, that's going to help your
(42:03):
life immediately.
That would be my goal.
And if it makes sense to put together
a plan of action to get you better
with women and help you be the greatest
guy you've ever been and can possibly be
through coaching, we'll do that too.
All of that is there for you and
more at mountantoppodcast.com.
And until I talk to you again real
soon, this is Scott McKay from X and
(42:24):
Y Communications in San Antonio, Texas.
Be good out there.
The Mountaintop Podcast is produced by X and
Y Communications, all rights reserved worldwide.
Be sure to visit www.mountaintoppodcast.com for
(42:47):
show notes.
And while you're there, sign up for the
free X and Y Communications newsletter for men.
This is Ed Roy Odom speaking for The
Mountaintop Podcast.
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