June 5, 2025 • 36 mins
Co-Host Zach Schleien (https://mountaintoppodcast.com/spark) My returning guest Zach Schleien has founded dating companies and now serves as the General Manager of Matchmaking for Spark Networks. Over the course of his career, he's learned a thing or two about what attracts men and women to each other. So what are the mindsets, trigger and attitudes that make attraction happen at the primal, psychological level? Well, obviously physical attraction matters (hence Zach's commitment to video dating), but how that works differs between men and women. It has been said that none of us should expect to 'punch above our weight' in the looks department, but we see exceptions around us all the time. What is that attributable to? Is it true that if a guy has a great job or lots of money it'll cover over 'a multitude of sins' in the looks department? What do women find attractive that's in relatively short supply among men here in the post-modern era? Was David DeAngelo right when he famously said, 'attraction is not a choice'? What is the general rule that governs what the media tells us is 'attractive'? What happens to our sense of attraction as we cross cultures and travel to different countries? Are all pretty women attractive? What about women who know they're beautiful, and seem to think they can get by on their looks alone? How do dating apps mess up our entire mindset about attraction? And on that note, are we really attracted to women we think we're attracted to, or are our minds playing tricks on us (again)? And if we really don't have our type figured out yet, what's the disarmingly obvious solution to solving the puzzle? Get in on the Masterclasses For Men, reserve your half-hour of FREE phone time with me and MORE at https://mountaintoppodcast.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Live from the mist and shrouded mountaintop fortress that is X & Y communicationsheadquarters, you're listening to the world famous mountaintop podcast.
And now, here's your host, Scot McKay
Oh, how's it going gentlemen?
Welcome to yet another episode of the world famous mountaintop podcast I am your host ScotMcKay from X & Y communications as always and today we have a returning guest who is gonna
(00:28):
talk with me about a subject that I think has been a long time coming and Probably willtake a lot of interesting twists and that's the psychology of attraction
Before we do that, I want to remind you that you can find me on X on Tik Tok, on YouTubeand on true social at Scot McKay and on Instagram at real Scot McKay.
(00:50):
The website as always is mountaintoppodcast.com.
Lots of goodies to find there.
And gentlemen, The Mountain Top Summit on Facebook is where are you going to find a groupof like-minded men getting better with women and being better men?
Hope you'll join us there.
The last time we talked to my guest, Zach Schlein, he was
the head honcho over at filter off nowadays he is the gm of matchmaking at spark networkswhich you've heard of of course and he is in new york city and as advertised we're going
(01:19):
to talk about the psychology of attraction zach welcome back to the show man
Thanks so much for having me.
Yeah man, glad to have you back.
Last time you were heading up an operation called Filter Off and now you've kind ofchanged roles.
Tell us a little bit about what's been going on with you over the past few years, man.
Yeah.
So I started filter off in 2020.
(01:40):
So it's probably right around when we first raised our initial capital and I went fulltime.
was a video speed dating app.
It was quite successful during the pandemic.
We were at many videos, speed dating events for different communities around the world.
And then about a couple of years ago, we introduced white glove matchmaking, whichprovided a more efficient
(02:05):
and authentic and more valuable experience to our users and where they get paired with anactual human matchmaker and set some up on video dates.
That did very, very well.
And in October of 24, we were acquired by Spark networks.
And my role at Spark is to head up matchmaking as the GM of matchmaking.
(02:28):
I think that sounds fantastic, man.
That was a long way to go and a relatively short amount of time.
So congratulations on that.
Thank you.
Yeah.
And I'm going to go ahead and give the guys the URL to go check that out at the end.
mean, you know, just to spill the beans up front, it'll be mountaintoppodcast.com frontslash spark, which seems reasonable enough.
But the topic today is indeed the psychology of attraction.
(02:51):
What have you discovered over the last four years or maybe
over a longer course of time than that.
Certainly there was time leading up to your decision to found FilterOff.
What have you found out about how human attraction works and how has your knowledge andyour skill based on that been fine-tuned over the course of your tenure with FilterOff and
(03:11):
with Spark?
Yeah, I think initially for anyone who dates, physical is always going to be on someone'smind.
However, it is different for men and women, but that's why we introduced video dating justlike efficient, but it allows you to see who they are and allows you to gauge them.
And as humans, we're constantly judging and assessing whether this person couldpotentially fit into our life.
(03:37):
Well, you said something very interesting already.
Physical attraction is undeniably at the forefront, but it's different for men and forwomen.
How so?
For men, it's very much at the forefront.
For women, sometimes it can develop over time.
However, even for women, is also very, very important.
(03:58):
However, as you date, it's not uncommon that the woman may not be super, super attractiveuh to you, but that builds over time as you prove that you could be a good mate, that you
could be a good provider, that you could be a good husband.
potentially if you have children to raise their kids well.
(04:19):
So, I mean, these are all things that many people value when it comes to dating and thenand beyond.
There's this assumption that goes around, I think on the part of most people, that ifyou're say a 7 out of 10, as a man or a woman, you should pretty much expect to not really
punch above your weight.
(04:40):
You'll probably end up dating and marrying someone who's about a 7 out of 10 also, yet wesee exceptions all the time.
What would you attribute that to?
few things.
think it's at end of the day, you could always work on yourself.
So, do you eat well?
So you, are you in good shape?
Are you driven?
Do you have a good career?
So it's obviously you're born a certain way.
(05:01):
So like, can't always change that aside from maybe cosmetic surgery, but I'm notrecommending that whatsoever.
All the point I'm trying to make is you could always work on yourself to become a betterperson.
and to potentially even attract someone that you may have not been able to attractbeforehand.
You know, this conversation, Zach, is already taking uh a turn that I didn't expect, but Ilove.
(05:27):
In there, kind of nonchalantly, you mentioned that, you know, if a guy has a career, itwould sort of count towards how good he looks to a woman.
Is it true in your estimation really that if a guy has a good job or makes a lot of money,then that would cover over the proverbial multitude of sins in the looks department?
I think there's a lot of guys who kind of cynically believe that.
(05:48):
So I just want to...
See if you're with them or perhaps indicating something else there.
I don't think it's necessarily black and white.
If you're passionate about what you do and love what you do and you could uh share thatpassion with someone and show that, Hey, I can provide and I've made a great career.
Like that's attractive versus someone who maybe isn't a career and they make lots ofmoney, but they're not passionate about it.
(06:13):
And they're not excited about it.
And they hate their job.
Like that's not attractive.
So I don't think it's necessarily based off of like level income, but it's based off of.
Like, am I living my authentic life?
Obviously, there's gonna be days that are tougher than others.
You're not always going to love your job.
But like, are you passionate about what you do?
And again, it also comes down to how you take care of yourself.
(06:36):
Do you let yourself go or are you eating well?
Do you go to the gym?
Like, these are all variables that help with finding someone who can be a great mate foryou.
Yeah, well, you bring up the other good point that I was going to move on to next.
So nice segue there.
if you are a seven out of 10, you could drop some LBs.
(06:58):
You could get a little more athletic.
You could go to the gym.
You could drink less alcohol and get more sleep to get rid of the bags under your eyes andbecome probably an eight and a half with at least a modicum of effort.
And I think a lot of women also nowadays are looking pretty frumpy, might have a lot to dowith self-esteem.
They don't think they're beautiful.
Someone who's abusive told them they were ugly.
And meanwhile, there's a swan underneath that ugly duckling.
(07:20):
If she would just take better care of herself.
I think that's all very true.
Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to also like how you handle your past traumas.
And I think it's interesting when you date, a lot of things do come up and are you goingto just push them away or are going to work on yourself?
So it's very important, at least I can only speak for myself.
(07:41):
It's important for me to work on myself physically, emotionally, because I want to be thebest human that I can be.
You also mentioned in terms of psychology relative to attraction that for women being aprovider and a protector, making a woman feel safe and comfortable is part of the
attraction process.
And you know, we talked about that quite a bit on this show, but I'd love for you toexpound on that fact your own way for these guys.
(08:06):
Yeah, I mean, as a caveat, I'm not a sociologist or a psychologist.
It's just based off of my experience running a dating company for the many years I have,and also reading a lot about attraction and this industry.
So just want to put that up front.
But yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, if you could be a great provider and if you canshow her that you can raise children and be there and
(08:32):
be there for her as well as your kids.
I mean, that is very attractive.
So I think there's again, there's a number of variables that come into play.
So here's another factor that I would love to get your opinion on.
It's been said that women, since they're the beautiful ones in this species, we're notpeacocks, thank God, right?
Where the men are the beautiful ones.
(08:53):
Women are all about beauty and just exuding that gorgeous artistic sexuality thatfemininity portrays so well.
Women really don't want a man who's going to be prettier.
They don't want a guy who's going to outshine them at the cocktail parties.
They want to be the beautiful one.
They want to be the arm candy, if you will, if I could say something so crass on the guy'sarm.
(09:16):
They don't want to have to deal with a boyfriend or a husband who's better looking thanthey are.
That would be sort of humiliating to a woman.
What do you think about that?
Is there something to that?
I depends.
think certain women think a lot of is confidence.
think there's going to be women that would agree with you.
And I think there's going to be women that really don't.
(09:36):
I think it gets a little dangerous when we generalize like a whole gender, but I thinkthere are, I think at the end of the day, yeah, there are certain like norms.
There are things that you could do for yourself personally.
And it's also what you want.
I think at the end of the day, it's most important to understand what you want.
for your authentic self.
And that's important to date and see what women for you click.
(10:00):
And that's whole point of dating, right?
Like you're in relationships and maybe she doesn't like certain things about you whenyou're out at a party.
Like you have to take that and then decide like, hey, do I want to take that feedback?
Like, is this authentic to me or is it not?
And then, and if it doesn't feel good and you feel like she's trying to change you and youdisagree, like you could always end it in trust.
(10:22):
just meet someone else.
So I think it's up to you.
David D'Angelo years ago, one of the well, 800 pound gorilla type of guys in the men'sdating advice space, everybody was listening to David D'Angelo back around 2003, 2004,
once famously said, attraction is not a choice.
In other words, I don't decide who I think is hot, who does it for me.
(10:44):
It's just something that I viscerally, even primally feel.
And going along with that, what you're alluding to is that attraction just isn't amonolith.
There is no specific formula for quote unquote being attractive.
We are all very subjectively attracted to whoever is going to do it for us respectively,right?
100%.
If we were just look at your friends, right?
(11:06):
You'll say, they'll show you a photo of like some of their day and you may not feel likethey're super attractive, but for them, they're like, wow, she's like the most beautiful
girl in the world.
And if attraction was all the same, that'd be a very dangerous thing.
I think that's the beauty of being human where it allows you to have options and allowsyou to have your own perspective of what attraction is for you.
(11:32):
I think that's a really beautiful thing.
Yeah, it is a beautiful thing and that's the way it's supposed to be because every humanbeing is indeed unique.
So it's almost silly to think that there's this formulaic version of attractiveness.
But Zach, that's what the media would have us believe.
And just to kind of kick off this portion of the conversation, it seems like the mediawould have us believe that if it's hard to attain and costly, it's what's attractive.
(11:55):
Like women should have six pack abs.
Men don't lose your hair.
My God, you you got to do something about that.
You got to get with some company who's going to replace your hair for you.
And women, you know, you need to be real skinny, but still have big boobies and all thesethings that are just incongruously difficult to juxtapose kind of heading towards this
supposed paragon of attraction, which doesn't even really exist for people.
(12:17):
mean, as crass as this is going to sound, the anonymous internet does not lie.
If you go to a porn site and you look at the top porn actresses, most of them don't looklike five foot 10 leggy supermodels.
A lot of them look like the girl next door.
And frankly, some of the most popular ones are probably more like five foot three, 140 or150 instead of like five foot 10, 105.
(12:40):
So the proof is no matter what the media tells us that's unattainable and we should throwmoney and time and energy and resources at in reality,
we as human beings have not only a much wider range of what's attractive to us, it'susually true that more of us than not are attracted to something we might not even be
willing to admit to other people we're attracted to vis-a-vis what the media narrative is.
(13:05):
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I think if you travel, you'll see what quote unquote attractive is, right?
Like different countries have a different standard of attractive.
When you travel to these different countries, it's, very unique what the level of likeattraction or what the perfect woman is, whether it's in a country in South America versus
(13:27):
let's say South Korea, like very different of what
perfection or attraction is.
So I think you can't really look at it that way.
You have to decide what's best for yourself in an authentic way for myself personally.
I really care about health because for me, I want to be the best person I can be.
I want to excel in my career.
I want to feel good.
I want to live a long time.
(13:49):
want to be able to have children.
I want to be able to play with them as, as a older person.
So I think it comes down to what you want and you have to be authentic to yourself and
You have to look at the media and take it with a grain of salt.
And if you're obsessed with like social media, it could get a really, it could become areally dangerous place and could really mess up your mind.
(14:11):
So then it comes down to what you want personally and be, and feel confident in your ownskin.
That's what comes down to it.
Now you mentioned a good keyword, Zach, which was health.
There have been peer-reviewed scientific studies that indicate we tend to be attracted topeople who are healthy.
We have this sort of primal human radar that detects healthy women, women who will besuccessful at bearing children, being good mommies.
(14:38):
That's why we like boobies.
That's why we like a seven to 10 golden ratio between waist and hips.
There are certain traits like that that portend, you know, not only good positive healthin general, but the ability to procreate.
And, know, this is all wrapped up into what I call God's dirty little trick, but therereally is some deep seated primal psychology there that helps us decide who is going to be
(15:02):
the best mate for us.
You know, this is like evolutionary psych, evolutionary biology stuff, but it'sinteresting to talk about at least, you know.
Totally.
I mean, when it comes down to evolution and you want someone, especially if you wantchildren, someone who's in good health uh and vice versa, someone that can play with their
(15:23):
kids as they get old.
Like, and that's an attractive thing and something that could be supportive for yourchildren.
There's also a difference in my estimation, and I'm interested to see if you agree with meon this.
It's okay if you don't, by the way.
But I think there's a difference between beautiful and attractive.
I think we as guys can acknowledge a girl's really pretty, but we're still not attractedto her.
(15:45):
Attraction is this magnetism.
Like, oh, there's one who does it for me.
There's one I'm very interested in.
There's one I want to get to know more.
And we may look at a woman, and you kind of sort of alluded to this already, who's...
someone else's girlfriend and they're like, well, you know, great dude, she does nothingfor me and I'm not going to say anything like that around you, but I'm happy for you, you
know, and we kind of go roll our eyes.
(16:07):
But meanwhile, this is this guy's perfect dream woman and they're just perfect for eachother.
Right?
So attraction really is not only subjective, but it isn't really even about physicalbeauty.
It's am I drawn to this person?
Because that's what attraction means.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
A hundred percent.
And how they make you feel.
(16:27):
can go on dates with a beautiful woman, but she doesn't make you feel good.
You'll probably lose attractions are quite quickly.
Yes.
If she rubs you in the wrong way in certain ways, or she's demanding or not kind, likethat's not type of woman I would want to be with.
Like if you let's say pay for the check and she doesn't thank you or she, uh, let's sayshe gets up.
(16:51):
out of bed after you and she doesn't make the bed.
those are, again, those are maybe for certain people, it doesn't matter, but for otherpeople, like, no, I, there's certain things that I like about a woman.
So, and that's what draws you in.
And when you're with someone that's like easy to be with and you can laugh and she makesyou feel great and she makes you feel just like yourself, like the best version, like that
(17:15):
is so attractive and so sexy.
So, and that's the type of woman I think any guy would want to be.
Yeah, and I don't think that's gender specific either.
I think that goes for both men and women.
We're more alike than different when it comes to that.
I've polled audiences live and I've asked them, have you ever had this huge, massive crushon this chick?
(17:35):
You couldn't wait to go out with her.
And then when you actually get to go out with her and you're on that first date, 40minutes later, you can't get out of there soon enough.
And almost every hand in the room went up.
Like she looked great.
I thought she was hot.
I was fantasizing about her sexually and then I met her and I'm just done.
We're finished here.
Yeah.
And certainly if you take two women who are equally beautiful, right?
(18:00):
And one of them you get along with and it feels like you've known each other 10 years whenyou've known each other for 10 minutes.
And meanwhile, the other one is boring or mean to the waiter, just not very pleasant.
It's going to be a no brainer, which one you're more quote unquote attracted to.
The magnetism is going to be there with the person who's more well-rounded and more well,like one of you, which brings up an interesting question.
(18:24):
What do you think's going on psychologically with people, Zach, when they think they canjust get by on being beautiful?
You know, I think the stereotype is this girl is absolutely gorgeous.
She gets the halo effect bestowed upon her because of that beauty, but she's really justan awful person, very selfish, very uh entitled.
(18:44):
and just think she can treat people like garbage because she's so beautiful and guys willstill worship her and put her on a pedestal.
I think a lot of us as guys are guilty of, well, creating that monster, but it just seemsto me if you're one of the beautiful people, quote unquote, why not just have some
character also and be well-rounded so you're the whole package and you don't have tosettle for these people who are just wanting to be with you sexually because they're
(19:08):
putting you on some sort of pedestal that
It just seems like a losing proposition to kind of abdicate any responsibility for havingcharacter because you're just getting by on your looks.
And for women in particular, I think there's a shelf life, you know what I mean?
mean, you said a few things.
for one, I think it's dangerous for a guy to get obsessed before actually meeting them.
(19:31):
and I mean, that's really what dating apps have done to us.
When you swipe right and swipe left, it's literally about, am I attracted to this person?
Yes or no.
And we build a fantasy around that person before ever even having the benefit of havingmet him.
100%.
And then you also create that fantasy through text messaging.
Like it could be the best sort of texting game and the convo.
(19:55):
It feels magnetic.
And then you meet them and it feels nothing like that text.
I mean, that's in short, this is why I built a video dating apps.
We actually talked them first on video, before being in person because you, like you said,you hit the nail on the head, which is.
They could be really beautiful in their photos.
then you get on video chat with them or meet them in real life.
(20:16):
And you realize, I don't want to be here.
Like whether or not you're still attracted to them, but maybe you start chatting with themand your values are not aligned or it could be something as small as just like how their
voice sounds or their smile or just like how they laugh.
It could be just anything.
And that's the beauty of just like getting on.
whether it's a video chat or an in-person date as quickly as possible to see if thechemistry is there.
(20:42):
And then in terms of your other point, if you're a beautiful woman who has a really crappypersonality, yeah, you could probably get by in many cases and you're gonna attract a
certain sort of guy and then it's up to her if she wants to develop herself.
It's kind of like the guy that maybe in high school was like, or bullied and he has thatchip on his shoulder.
(21:05):
and he crushes in life.
And I think it's, I think you see that, especially with like a lot of men, or you couldsee that with athletes too, when they've always kind of been the underdog and then they
crush it later in life versus someone who is always crushing it young and then they stopdeveloping themselves and they have a pretty lousy performance as an adult and they don't
(21:25):
work as hard because things were handed to them.
So I think again, like that's up to that person, but it could be tough.
If you're young and you always get everything handed to you and everyone says yes to youand it's easy because then you don't always put in the work as you get older.
And, know, we are taught what to think, what to believe, how to act very early in life.
(21:46):
And then later in life, once we built those habits and literally our entire young life wasspent feeling that way, it can be hard to unravel that stinking thinking, even if we need
to.
So I understand exactly what you're saying.
A couple of things came up there.
First of all, we set ourselves up for failure for sure.
When we look at a woman's filtered profile picture,
(22:06):
and read some drivel written by chat GPT about who she is and then meet her in person andshe's someone completely different.
And there's sort of this cognitive dissonance that can enter into that where we're goingto tell ourselves we're attracted even though we're not because we've already decided
ahead of time we are.
And meanwhile, if we would have seen this woman at the grocery store or just out andabout, we wouldn't have given her a second look, but now we somehow feel obligated
(22:32):
psychologically having met her.
That's a weird
Weird phenomenon, isn't it?
100 % totally is.
And it's only gone weirder and it's messed up, mess us up more with many of the datingapps that are out there.
And the psychology can get even weirder when you juxtapose that phenomenon with thepressure based on media and social media and whatever the prevailing narrative is to find
(22:57):
a person who looks like this or beautiful women look like that.
Because then what might end up happening is you find a woman who fits the media narrativeof beauty and somehow she falls for you.
But you don't really get along with her and she's sort of awful.
Meanwhile, there's a woman who really does do it for you.
She would be your 10 even in the looks department, but she, you know, looks, if it wereme, she looks more like a retired gymnast with short hair.
(23:20):
You know what I mean?
And yet, because you're sort of ashamed thinking you're maybe different than everybodyelse and you don't want to be humiliated and embarrassed, you go after the woman you're
not really attracted to because you think that's what the media and what society
tells you you should be attracted to, and forsake a woman who's perfect for you and youget along better and probably are more compatible with, all because of something that
(23:43):
doesn't really exist.
It's in their sats, faux representation of what you should want anyway.
I actually see that play out in real life often, and it's generally socially and sexuallypretty disastrous.
Yeah.
mean, I think it's important to take your time finding a partner.
I would say is the most arguably the most important decision in your life.
(24:05):
That's why it's helpful to get a professional working with, for example, a dating coach oreven a matchmaker.
I mean, these people are super beneficial because they can see A, blind spots that youhave and B, they work with so many other people.
that have gone through what you're going through.
(24:26):
So they could kind of normalize, hey, it's not that big of a deal to just say like, hey,let me help you find the person you actually want versus what you think you should have
because clearly what you're doing is not working.
And that's why it's so important to find a professional in the field to help you when it'snot working.
(24:46):
Well, obviously I'm a biased opinion as a professional dating coach among other things.
Yeah, but you know what the magic there is having been at this for 19 years and you'vebeen at what you've been doing for many years as well, Zach, is we've seen all the
patterns.
We've worked with so many people that we know kind of how it all fits together.
When a certain factor's there, another one's likely also to be there when there's acertain issue.
(25:10):
Usually it's caused by this and or can be corrected by that.
And that's where being able to see that forest for the trees can really come into playbecause it helps literally with your psychology of attraction.
If you think you should be attracted to something or someone and you're just not, it canbe confusing to try to fix that, especially if you have like familial pressure, you know,
(25:30):
go marry a nice Jewish boy, you know, that kind of thing.
And you feel like you've got to obey that societal pressure coming.
from maybe even within your own family, yet the media is telling you something completelydifferent, it can get really, really complicated.
And I think there's also a psychology where if we're told we can't have something, itmakes us want it even more, even if we don't really, at our base level, authentic level,
(26:00):
really want it.
And the example that comes to mind, just because I've seen it so many times, is you'll getguys who aren't very tall.
and they'll read article after article about how women want tall men, right?
And they just feel like, well, women aren't ever gonna want me.
And the prevailing psychological state becomes, well, I'll show them I'm gonna go date sixfoot tall women.
I'm gonna act like a tall guy and I'm gonna get tall women to want me even though I'mshort.
(26:25):
I'm gonna prove I can do this.
Meanwhile, it isn't like the guy really wanted taller women.
He would have been much happier with a woman who was like 5'1", 5'2".
but he just has to prove society wrong because he's got that chip on his shoulder again.
That's the best example I can think of that.
And that's, once again, stinking thinking.
Why can't we just relax and go after who we really want?
(26:46):
I think a lot of guys haven't even thought about who they really want.
It's like, who is your type?
Well, any chick who can fog a mirror and will have sex with me is a good start.
And I think we should be a little more selective than that and give ourselves the freedomto be.
You know what I mean?
Totally.
I think it's important to date intentionally and see what you like and you don't like.
And then when you go on these dates in the future, you'll start having a betterunderstanding of what you actually want and lean into that because it's, you don't want to
(27:14):
waste your time on going on dates you actually don't want to go on just for clinicalpractice.
Like I think it's important to be super intentional because if you are intentional, thelikelihood of finding your
match is going to be higher.
However, the caveat would be it's important to be open minded.
That's also why working with a professional can be valuable because they could see thingsthat you don't.
(27:38):
And I've seen that in my experience where a lot of people are like, Hey, I'm super picky.
And it's like, well, maybe that's why you've been single for all these years.
And it's not working or it, cause you're looking for perfection that doesn't exist.
So I think there's like something in the middle where it's not.
You don't want to take the extremes.
You should take an approach that's a little bit more subtle.
Yeah, there's a big wide chasm between settling for someone you don't want and being sopatently unreasonable at the wholesale level that the person you think you want doesn't
(28:07):
even exist.
It's just unreasonable.
Somewhere in the middle there is the person who's right for you, who, you know, is quirkyand perhaps flawed in the same way you are in a good way.
And they're perfectly imperfect, as I like to say.
That's how my wife and I view each other.
And I think that's healthy.
And I would really also like to underscore what you said about
how we really don't know what it is we truly want until we put it to the test.
(28:31):
If we have this mental image of the kind of woman we want and we haven't really dated awhole lot yet, I would say it's almost a 100 % certainty that that's gonna be subject to
change a little bit.
That design, that blueprint for your perfect woman, so to speak, you know, your perfectlyimperfect woman, right, is subject to change after you've dated a dozen or two dozen or 50
(28:53):
women.
Because then you're going to go, well, you know, I always thought I wanted a woman whowould contend with me a little and maybe be a little argumentative because that would be a
lot better than if she was a shrinking violet.
But it isn't that you wanted a woman to argue with you after all.
It's just you wanted an interesting conversation.
So you find a woman that you get along with, but the two of you can just riff on thingsfor hours and you realize, Hey, that's a lot better than having a contentious woman.
(29:16):
You know, I'm raising my hand because that's a little bit of a self projection.
I used to think I wanted that kind of woman is weird as it sounds.
and realized the latter scenario that I presented was much better for me and that's whoI'm with today.
But I think that's exactly on point.
I think we brought up a whole lot of good things so far.
Zach, is there anything you want to leave guys with that maybe we didn't cover yet aboutperhaps fine tuning their psychology for better success with women in general?
(29:41):
I mean, to also add what you don't want is to just be like someone who's just analyzing.
Cause then you get like analysis paralysis.
It's important to like just go on the fields and experience and see what you like and whatyou don't.
And then just be authentic to yourself.
And if you have to unfortunately break someone's heart, cause it's not the right fit foryou, like do it because it's not fair to him or her to not do that.
(30:08):
Cause you're wasting their time.
That's a great point, and people do that too.
100 % they stay in something because they're like, I'm not saying grass is green on theother side.
It's if you, if you fundamentally believe you're in the wrong relationship or you'redating the wrong person, like trust your intuition because it's typically correct.
Yeah, staying with them because of shame and guilt is definitely not a strategy.
(30:30):
That's bad.
That's definitely bad.
His name is Zach Schlein and he is now the GM, the General Manager of Matchmaking at SparkNetworks.
And when you go to mountaintoppodcast.com front slash spark, you will be sent directly tothe matchmaking page at spark.com.
And what are they going to find there, Zach?
(30:51):
Yes, you'll learn all about our matchmaking program and what we offer.
Well, that seems pretty cut and dried and simple enough.
And so guys, you're definitely going to want to go to mountaintoppodcast.com front slashspark.
Zach Schlein from New York city.
Thanks once again for joining us.
I'm thrilled to hear that, you know, your career has evolved a little bit.
You're doing something a little bit different, but just as exciting and so glad that youjoined us today to share a little bit of insight on the psychology of attraction.
(31:18):
I think it's been a fun conversation and I hope to have you back.
Well, sooner than four years from now, at the very least, cause there's
certainly a lot to talk about.
You're a guy who is immersed in this field at least as much as I am and I appreciate youfor that.
Thanks again, man.
Yeah, Scott, that was a lot of fun.
Thanks so much for having me.
Yeah, man, absolutely.
Gentlemen, please go to mountaintoppodcast.com.
Check out everything we got that's brand new around there, including new soap from oursponsor, heros soap.com, including the triumphant return of spearmint soap, which is
(31:47):
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You can check that out at mountaintoppodcast.com, heros soap.
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They've got
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It's just fantastic always made in the USA and Last but not least the guys over at thekeyboard are always putting out new faceplates so you can customize your keyboard device
(32:16):
Find them at mountaintoppodcast.com front slash keyboard Whichever of our fine sponsorsare longtime sponsors I might add that you choose to work with Please do enter the coupon
code mountain 10 for 10 % off at checkout
Also guys, I'm gonna throw it on the table.
Some of you need to do some coaching and I've made it easier than ever to do that.
(32:38):
I have come out with an introductory program that is a great balance between doing nothingand signing up for one of my more advanced 10 plus programs.
This is the program that I present to people if they've never heard the podcast or neverbeen on my newsletter and just wanna kinda, you know.
Figure out whether we know what we're doing around here before diving into a biggerprogram.
(32:58):
It's called the introductory package.
It's $300 and it includes two full coaching sessions.
The ability to talk to me in between those coaching sessions with whatever comes up andemail coaching till at least two days after you're done the second session won't cost you
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And if you do decide to work with us for a longer term, guess what?
(33:20):
That 300 bucks gets rolled in to your 10 plus program.
You can find out more about that by going to mountaintoppodcast.com frontslash intro.
That's mountaintoppodcast.com frontslash intro.
And as always guys, all of the goodies, all of the downloads, all the free stuff is alwaysthere for you at the main site, which is mountaintoppodcast.com.
(33:44):
And until I talk to you again real soon, this is Scot McKay from X & Y Communications inSan Antonio, Texas.
Be good out there.
you
The Mountaintop Podcast is produced by X & Y Communications, all rights reservedworldwide.
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(34:08):
And while you're there, sign up for the free X & Y Communications newsletter for men.
This is Ed Roy Oldham speaking for the Mountaintop Podcast.
Live from the mist and shrouded mountaintop fortress that is X & Y communicationsheadquarters, you're listening to the world famous mountaintop podcast.
And now, here's your host, Scot McKay
Oh, how's it going gentlemen?
Welcome to yet another episode of the world famous mountaintop podcast I am your host ScotMcKay from X & Y communications as always and today we have a returning guest who is gonna
(00:28):
talk with me about a subject that I think has been a long time coming and Probably willtake a lot of interesting twists and that's the psychology of attraction
Before we do that, I want to remind you that you can find me on X on Tik Tok, on YouTubeand on true social at Scot McKay and on Instagram at real Scot McKay.
(00:50):
The website as always is mountaintoppodcast.com.
Lots of goodies to find there.
And gentlemen, The Mountain Top Summit on Facebook is where are you going to find a groupof like-minded men getting better with women and being better men?
Hope you'll join us there.
The last time we talked to my guest, Zach Schlein, he was
the head honcho over at filter off nowadays he is the gm of matchmaking at spark networkswhich you've heard of of course and he is in new york city and as advertised we're going
(01:19):
to talk about the psychology of attraction zach welcome back to the show man
Thanks so much for having me.
Yeah man, glad to have you back.
Last time you were heading up an operation called Filter Off and now you've kind ofchanged roles.
Tell us a little bit about what's been going on with you over the past few years, man.
Yeah.
So I started filter off in 2020.
(01:40):
So it's probably right around when we first raised our initial capital and I went fulltime.
was a video speed dating app.
It was quite successful during the pandemic.
We were at many videos, speed dating events for different communities around the world.
And then about a couple of years ago, we introduced white glove matchmaking, whichprovided a more efficient
(02:05):
and authentic and more valuable experience to our users and where they get paired with anactual human matchmaker and set some up on video dates.
That did very, very well.
And in October of 24, we were acquired by Spark networks.
And my role at Spark is to head up matchmaking as the GM of matchmaking.
(02:28):
I think that sounds fantastic, man.
That was a long way to go and a relatively short amount of time.
So congratulations on that.
Thank you.
Yeah.
And I'm going to go ahead and give the guys the URL to go check that out at the end.
mean, you know, just to spill the beans up front, it'll be mountaintoppodcast.com frontslash spark, which seems reasonable enough.
But the topic today is indeed the psychology of attraction.
(02:51):
What have you discovered over the last four years or maybe
over a longer course of time than that.
Certainly there was time leading up to your decision to found FilterOff.
What have you found out about how human attraction works and how has your knowledge andyour skill based on that been fine-tuned over the course of your tenure with FilterOff and
(03:11):
with Spark?
Yeah, I think initially for anyone who dates, physical is always going to be on someone'smind.
However, it is different for men and women, but that's why we introduced video dating justlike efficient, but it allows you to see who they are and allows you to gauge them.
And as humans, we're constantly judging and assessing whether this person couldpotentially fit into our life.
(03:37):
Well, you said something very interesting already.
Physical attraction is undeniably at the forefront, but it's different for men and forwomen.
How so?
For men, it's very much at the forefront.
For women, sometimes it can develop over time.
However, even for women, is also very, very important.
(03:58):
However, as you date, it's not uncommon that the woman may not be super, super attractiveuh to you, but that builds over time as you prove that you could be a good mate, that you
could be a good provider, that you could be a good husband.
potentially if you have children to raise their kids well.
(04:19):
So, I mean, these are all things that many people value when it comes to dating and thenand beyond.
There's this assumption that goes around, I think on the part of most people, that ifyou're say a 7 out of 10, as a man or a woman, you should pretty much expect to not really
punch above your weight.
(04:40):
You'll probably end up dating and marrying someone who's about a 7 out of 10 also, yet wesee exceptions all the time.
What would you attribute that to?
few things.
think it's at end of the day, you could always work on yourself.
So, do you eat well?
So you, are you in good shape?
Are you driven?
Do you have a good career?
So it's obviously you're born a certain way.
(05:01):
So like, can't always change that aside from maybe cosmetic surgery, but I'm notrecommending that whatsoever.
All the point I'm trying to make is you could always work on yourself to become a betterperson.
and to potentially even attract someone that you may have not been able to attractbeforehand.
You know, this conversation, Zach, is already taking uh a turn that I didn't expect, but Ilove.
(05:27):
In there, kind of nonchalantly, you mentioned that, you know, if a guy has a career, itwould sort of count towards how good he looks to a woman.
Is it true in your estimation really that if a guy has a good job or makes a lot of money,then that would cover over the proverbial multitude of sins in the looks department?
I think there's a lot of guys who kind of cynically believe that.
(05:48):
So I just want to...
See if you're with them or perhaps indicating something else there.
I don't think it's necessarily black and white.
If you're passionate about what you do and love what you do and you could uh share thatpassion with someone and show that, Hey, I can provide and I've made a great career.
Like that's attractive versus someone who maybe isn't a career and they make lots ofmoney, but they're not passionate about it.
(06:13):
And they're not excited about it.
And they hate their job.
Like that's not attractive.
So I don't think it's necessarily based off of like level income, but it's based off of.
Like, am I living my authentic life?
Obviously, there's gonna be days that are tougher than others.
You're not always going to love your job.
But like, are you passionate about what you do?
And again, it also comes down to how you take care of yourself.
(06:36):
Do you let yourself go or are you eating well?
Do you go to the gym?
Like, these are all variables that help with finding someone who can be a great mate foryou.
Yeah, well, you bring up the other good point that I was going to move on to next.
So nice segue there.
if you are a seven out of 10, you could drop some LBs.
(06:58):
You could get a little more athletic.
You could go to the gym.
You could drink less alcohol and get more sleep to get rid of the bags under your eyes andbecome probably an eight and a half with at least a modicum of effort.
And I think a lot of women also nowadays are looking pretty frumpy, might have a lot to dowith self-esteem.
They don't think they're beautiful.
Someone who's abusive told them they were ugly.
And meanwhile, there's a swan underneath that ugly duckling.
(07:20):
If she would just take better care of herself.
I think that's all very true.
Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to also like how you handle your past traumas.
And I think it's interesting when you date, a lot of things do come up and are you goingto just push them away or are going to work on yourself?
So it's very important, at least I can only speak for myself.
(07:41):
It's important for me to work on myself physically, emotionally, because I want to be thebest human that I can be.
You also mentioned in terms of psychology relative to attraction that for women being aprovider and a protector, making a woman feel safe and comfortable is part of the
attraction process.
And you know, we talked about that quite a bit on this show, but I'd love for you toexpound on that fact your own way for these guys.
(08:06):
Yeah, I mean, as a caveat, I'm not a sociologist or a psychologist.
It's just based off of my experience running a dating company for the many years I have,and also reading a lot about attraction and this industry.
So just want to put that up front.
But yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, if you could be a great provider and if you canshow her that you can raise children and be there and
(08:32):
be there for her as well as your kids.
I mean, that is very attractive.
So I think there's again, there's a number of variables that come into play.
So here's another factor that I would love to get your opinion on.
It's been said that women, since they're the beautiful ones in this species, we're notpeacocks, thank God, right?
Where the men are the beautiful ones.
(08:53):
Women are all about beauty and just exuding that gorgeous artistic sexuality thatfemininity portrays so well.
Women really don't want a man who's going to be prettier.
They don't want a guy who's going to outshine them at the cocktail parties.
They want to be the beautiful one.
They want to be the arm candy, if you will, if I could say something so crass on the guy'sarm.
(09:16):
They don't want to have to deal with a boyfriend or a husband who's better looking thanthey are.
That would be sort of humiliating to a woman.
What do you think about that?
Is there something to that?
I depends.
think certain women think a lot of is confidence.
think there's going to be women that would agree with you.
And I think there's going to be women that really don't.
(09:36):
I think it gets a little dangerous when we generalize like a whole gender, but I thinkthere are, I think at the end of the day, yeah, there are certain like norms.
There are things that you could do for yourself personally.
And it's also what you want.
I think at the end of the day, it's most important to understand what you want.
for your authentic self.
And that's important to date and see what women for you click.
(10:00):
And that's whole point of dating, right?
Like you're in relationships and maybe she doesn't like certain things about you whenyou're out at a party.
Like you have to take that and then decide like, hey, do I want to take that feedback?
Like, is this authentic to me or is it not?
And then, and if it doesn't feel good and you feel like she's trying to change you and youdisagree, like you could always end it in trust.
(10:22):
just meet someone else.
So I think it's up to you.
David D'Angelo years ago, one of the well, 800 pound gorilla type of guys in the men'sdating advice space, everybody was listening to David D'Angelo back around 2003, 2004,
once famously said, attraction is not a choice.
In other words, I don't decide who I think is hot, who does it for me.
(10:44):
It's just something that I viscerally, even primally feel.
And going along with that, what you're alluding to is that attraction just isn't amonolith.
There is no specific formula for quote unquote being attractive.
We are all very subjectively attracted to whoever is going to do it for us respectively,right?
100%.
If we were just look at your friends, right?
(11:06):
You'll say, they'll show you a photo of like some of their day and you may not feel likethey're super attractive, but for them, they're like, wow, she's like the most beautiful
girl in the world.
And if attraction was all the same, that'd be a very dangerous thing.
I think that's the beauty of being human where it allows you to have options and allowsyou to have your own perspective of what attraction is for you.
(11:32):
I think that's a really beautiful thing.
Yeah, it is a beautiful thing and that's the way it's supposed to be because every humanbeing is indeed unique.
So it's almost silly to think that there's this formulaic version of attractiveness.
But Zach, that's what the media would have us believe.
And just to kind of kick off this portion of the conversation, it seems like the mediawould have us believe that if it's hard to attain and costly, it's what's attractive.
(11:55):
Like women should have six pack abs.
Men don't lose your hair.
My God, you you got to do something about that.
You got to get with some company who's going to replace your hair for you.
And women, you know, you need to be real skinny, but still have big boobies and all thesethings that are just incongruously difficult to juxtapose kind of heading towards this
supposed paragon of attraction, which doesn't even really exist for people.
(12:17):
mean, as crass as this is going to sound, the anonymous internet does not lie.
If you go to a porn site and you look at the top porn actresses, most of them don't looklike five foot 10 leggy supermodels.
A lot of them look like the girl next door.
And frankly, some of the most popular ones are probably more like five foot three, 140 or150 instead of like five foot 10, 105.
(12:40):
So the proof is no matter what the media tells us that's unattainable and we should throwmoney and time and energy and resources at in reality,
we as human beings have not only a much wider range of what's attractive to us, it'susually true that more of us than not are attracted to something we might not even be
willing to admit to other people we're attracted to vis-a-vis what the media narrative is.
(13:05):
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I think if you travel, you'll see what quote unquote attractive is, right?
Like different countries have a different standard of attractive.
When you travel to these different countries, it's, very unique what the level of likeattraction or what the perfect woman is, whether it's in a country in South America versus
(13:27):
let's say South Korea, like very different of what
perfection or attraction is.
So I think you can't really look at it that way.
You have to decide what's best for yourself in an authentic way for myself personally.
I really care about health because for me, I want to be the best person I can be.
I want to excel in my career.
I want to feel good.
I want to live a long time.
(13:49):
want to be able to have children.
I want to be able to play with them as, as a older person.
So I think it comes down to what you want and you have to be authentic to yourself and
You have to look at the media and take it with a grain of salt.
And if you're obsessed with like social media, it could get a really, it could become areally dangerous place and could really mess up your mind.
(14:11):
So then it comes down to what you want personally and be, and feel confident in your ownskin.
That's what comes down to it.
Now you mentioned a good keyword, Zach, which was health.
There have been peer-reviewed scientific studies that indicate we tend to be attracted topeople who are healthy.
We have this sort of primal human radar that detects healthy women, women who will besuccessful at bearing children, being good mommies.
(14:38):
That's why we like boobies.
That's why we like a seven to 10 golden ratio between waist and hips.
There are certain traits like that that portend, you know, not only good positive healthin general, but the ability to procreate.
And, know, this is all wrapped up into what I call God's dirty little trick, but therereally is some deep seated primal psychology there that helps us decide who is going to be
(15:02):
the best mate for us.
You know, this is like evolutionary psych, evolutionary biology stuff, but it'sinteresting to talk about at least, you know.
Totally.
I mean, when it comes down to evolution and you want someone, especially if you wantchildren, someone who's in good health uh and vice versa, someone that can play with their
(15:23):
kids as they get old.
Like, and that's an attractive thing and something that could be supportive for yourchildren.
There's also a difference in my estimation, and I'm interested to see if you agree with meon this.
It's okay if you don't, by the way.
But I think there's a difference between beautiful and attractive.
I think we as guys can acknowledge a girl's really pretty, but we're still not attractedto her.
(15:45):
Attraction is this magnetism.
Like, oh, there's one who does it for me.
There's one I'm very interested in.
There's one I want to get to know more.
And we may look at a woman, and you kind of sort of alluded to this already, who's...
someone else's girlfriend and they're like, well, you know, great dude, she does nothingfor me and I'm not going to say anything like that around you, but I'm happy for you, you
know, and we kind of go roll our eyes.
(16:07):
But meanwhile, this is this guy's perfect dream woman and they're just perfect for eachother.
Right?
So attraction really is not only subjective, but it isn't really even about physicalbeauty.
It's am I drawn to this person?
Because that's what attraction means.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
A hundred percent.
And how they make you feel.
(16:27):
can go on dates with a beautiful woman, but she doesn't make you feel good.
You'll probably lose attractions are quite quickly.
Yes.
If she rubs you in the wrong way in certain ways, or she's demanding or not kind, likethat's not type of woman I would want to be with.
Like if you let's say pay for the check and she doesn't thank you or she, uh, let's sayshe gets up.
(16:51):
out of bed after you and she doesn't make the bed.
those are, again, those are maybe for certain people, it doesn't matter, but for otherpeople, like, no, I, there's certain things that I like about a woman.
So, and that's what draws you in.
And when you're with someone that's like easy to be with and you can laugh and she makesyou feel great and she makes you feel just like yourself, like the best version, like that
(17:15):
is so attractive and so sexy.
So, and that's the type of woman I think any guy would want to be.
Yeah, and I don't think that's gender specific either.
I think that goes for both men and women.
We're more alike than different when it comes to that.
I've polled audiences live and I've asked them, have you ever had this huge, massive crushon this chick?
(17:35):
You couldn't wait to go out with her.
And then when you actually get to go out with her and you're on that first date, 40minutes later, you can't get out of there soon enough.
And almost every hand in the room went up.
Like she looked great.
I thought she was hot.
I was fantasizing about her sexually and then I met her and I'm just done.
We're finished here.
Yeah.
And certainly if you take two women who are equally beautiful, right?
(18:00):
And one of them you get along with and it feels like you've known each other 10 years whenyou've known each other for 10 minutes.
And meanwhile, the other one is boring or mean to the waiter, just not very pleasant.
It's going to be a no brainer, which one you're more quote unquote attracted to.
The magnetism is going to be there with the person who's more well-rounded and more well,like one of you, which brings up an interesting question.
(18:24):
What do you think's going on psychologically with people, Zach, when they think they canjust get by on being beautiful?
You know, I think the stereotype is this girl is absolutely gorgeous.
She gets the halo effect bestowed upon her because of that beauty, but she's really justan awful person, very selfish, very uh entitled.
(18:44):
and just think she can treat people like garbage because she's so beautiful and guys willstill worship her and put her on a pedestal.
I think a lot of us as guys are guilty of, well, creating that monster, but it just seemsto me if you're one of the beautiful people, quote unquote, why not just have some
character also and be well-rounded so you're the whole package and you don't have tosettle for these people who are just wanting to be with you sexually because they're
(19:08):
putting you on some sort of pedestal that
It just seems like a losing proposition to kind of abdicate any responsibility for havingcharacter because you're just getting by on your looks.
And for women in particular, I think there's a shelf life, you know what I mean?
mean, you said a few things.
for one, I think it's dangerous for a guy to get obsessed before actually meeting them.
(19:31):
and I mean, that's really what dating apps have done to us.
When you swipe right and swipe left, it's literally about, am I attracted to this person?
Yes or no.
And we build a fantasy around that person before ever even having the benefit of havingmet him.
100%.
And then you also create that fantasy through text messaging.
Like it could be the best sort of texting game and the convo.
(19:55):
It feels magnetic.
And then you meet them and it feels nothing like that text.
I mean, that's in short, this is why I built a video dating apps.
We actually talked them first on video, before being in person because you, like you said,you hit the nail on the head, which is.
They could be really beautiful in their photos.
then you get on video chat with them or meet them in real life.
(20:16):
And you realize, I don't want to be here.
Like whether or not you're still attracted to them, but maybe you start chatting with themand your values are not aligned or it could be something as small as just like how their
voice sounds or their smile or just like how they laugh.
It could be just anything.
And that's the beauty of just like getting on.
whether it's a video chat or an in-person date as quickly as possible to see if thechemistry is there.
(20:42):
And then in terms of your other point, if you're a beautiful woman who has a really crappypersonality, yeah, you could probably get by in many cases and you're gonna attract a
certain sort of guy and then it's up to her if she wants to develop herself.
It's kind of like the guy that maybe in high school was like, or bullied and he has thatchip on his shoulder.
(21:05):
and he crushes in life.
And I think it's, I think you see that, especially with like a lot of men, or you couldsee that with athletes too, when they've always kind of been the underdog and then they
crush it later in life versus someone who is always crushing it young and then they stopdeveloping themselves and they have a pretty lousy performance as an adult and they don't
(21:25):
work as hard because things were handed to them.
So I think again, like that's up to that person, but it could be tough.
If you're young and you always get everything handed to you and everyone says yes to youand it's easy because then you don't always put in the work as you get older.
And, know, we are taught what to think, what to believe, how to act very early in life.
(21:46):
And then later in life, once we built those habits and literally our entire young life wasspent feeling that way, it can be hard to unravel that stinking thinking, even if we need
to.
So I understand exactly what you're saying.
A couple of things came up there.
First of all, we set ourselves up for failure for sure.
When we look at a woman's filtered profile picture,
(22:06):
and read some drivel written by chat GPT about who she is and then meet her in person andshe's someone completely different.
And there's sort of this cognitive dissonance that can enter into that where we're goingto tell ourselves we're attracted even though we're not because we've already decided
ahead of time we are.
And meanwhile, if we would have seen this woman at the grocery store or just out andabout, we wouldn't have given her a second look, but now we somehow feel obligated
(22:32):
psychologically having met her.
That's a weird
Weird phenomenon, isn't it?
100 % totally is.
And it's only gone weirder and it's messed up, mess us up more with many of the datingapps that are out there.
And the psychology can get even weirder when you juxtapose that phenomenon with thepressure based on media and social media and whatever the prevailing narrative is to find
(22:57):
a person who looks like this or beautiful women look like that.
Because then what might end up happening is you find a woman who fits the media narrativeof beauty and somehow she falls for you.
But you don't really get along with her and she's sort of awful.
Meanwhile, there's a woman who really does do it for you.
She would be your 10 even in the looks department, but she, you know, looks, if it wereme, she looks more like a retired gymnast with short hair.
(23:20):
You know what I mean?
And yet, because you're sort of ashamed thinking you're maybe different than everybodyelse and you don't want to be humiliated and embarrassed, you go after the woman you're
not really attracted to because you think that's what the media and what society
tells you you should be attracted to, and forsake a woman who's perfect for you and youget along better and probably are more compatible with, all because of something that
(23:43):
doesn't really exist.
It's in their sats, faux representation of what you should want anyway.
I actually see that play out in real life often, and it's generally socially and sexuallypretty disastrous.
Yeah.
mean, I think it's important to take your time finding a partner.
I would say is the most arguably the most important decision in your life.
(24:05):
That's why it's helpful to get a professional working with, for example, a dating coach oreven a matchmaker.
I mean, these people are super beneficial because they can see A, blind spots that youhave and B, they work with so many other people.
that have gone through what you're going through.
(24:26):
So they could kind of normalize, hey, it's not that big of a deal to just say like, hey,let me help you find the person you actually want versus what you think you should have
because clearly what you're doing is not working.
And that's why it's so important to find a professional in the field to help you when it'snot working.
(24:46):
Well, obviously I'm a biased opinion as a professional dating coach among other things.
Yeah, but you know what the magic there is having been at this for 19 years and you'vebeen at what you've been doing for many years as well, Zach, is we've seen all the
patterns.
We've worked with so many people that we know kind of how it all fits together.
When a certain factor's there, another one's likely also to be there when there's acertain issue.
(25:10):
Usually it's caused by this and or can be corrected by that.
And that's where being able to see that forest for the trees can really come into playbecause it helps literally with your psychology of attraction.
If you think you should be attracted to something or someone and you're just not, it canbe confusing to try to fix that, especially if you have like familial pressure, you know,
(25:30):
go marry a nice Jewish boy, you know, that kind of thing.
And you feel like you've got to obey that societal pressure coming.
from maybe even within your own family, yet the media is telling you something completelydifferent, it can get really, really complicated.
And I think there's also a psychology where if we're told we can't have something, itmakes us want it even more, even if we don't really, at our base level, authentic level,
(26:00):
really want it.
And the example that comes to mind, just because I've seen it so many times, is you'll getguys who aren't very tall.
and they'll read article after article about how women want tall men, right?
And they just feel like, well, women aren't ever gonna want me.
And the prevailing psychological state becomes, well, I'll show them I'm gonna go date sixfoot tall women.
I'm gonna act like a tall guy and I'm gonna get tall women to want me even though I'mshort.
(26:25):
I'm gonna prove I can do this.
Meanwhile, it isn't like the guy really wanted taller women.
He would have been much happier with a woman who was like 5'1", 5'2".
but he just has to prove society wrong because he's got that chip on his shoulder again.
That's the best example I can think of that.
And that's, once again, stinking thinking.
Why can't we just relax and go after who we really want?
(26:46):
I think a lot of guys haven't even thought about who they really want.
It's like, who is your type?
Well, any chick who can fog a mirror and will have sex with me is a good start.
And I think we should be a little more selective than that and give ourselves the freedomto be.
You know what I mean?
Totally.
I think it's important to date intentionally and see what you like and you don't like.
And then when you go on these dates in the future, you'll start having a betterunderstanding of what you actually want and lean into that because it's, you don't want to
(27:14):
waste your time on going on dates you actually don't want to go on just for clinicalpractice.
Like I think it's important to be super intentional because if you are intentional, thelikelihood of finding your
match is going to be higher.
However, the caveat would be it's important to be open minded.
That's also why working with a professional can be valuable because they could see thingsthat you don't.
(27:38):
And I've seen that in my experience where a lot of people are like, Hey, I'm super picky.
And it's like, well, maybe that's why you've been single for all these years.
And it's not working or it, cause you're looking for perfection that doesn't exist.
So I think there's like something in the middle where it's not.
You don't want to take the extremes.
You should take an approach that's a little bit more subtle.
Yeah, there's a big wide chasm between settling for someone you don't want and being sopatently unreasonable at the wholesale level that the person you think you want doesn't
(28:07):
even exist.
It's just unreasonable.
Somewhere in the middle there is the person who's right for you, who, you know, is quirkyand perhaps flawed in the same way you are in a good way.
And they're perfectly imperfect, as I like to say.
That's how my wife and I view each other.
And I think that's healthy.
And I would really also like to underscore what you said about
how we really don't know what it is we truly want until we put it to the test.
(28:31):
If we have this mental image of the kind of woman we want and we haven't really dated awhole lot yet, I would say it's almost a 100 % certainty that that's gonna be subject to
change a little bit.
That design, that blueprint for your perfect woman, so to speak, you know, your perfectlyimperfect woman, right, is subject to change after you've dated a dozen or two dozen or 50
(28:53):
women.
Because then you're going to go, well, you know, I always thought I wanted a woman whowould contend with me a little and maybe be a little argumentative because that would be a
lot better than if she was a shrinking violet.
But it isn't that you wanted a woman to argue with you after all.
It's just you wanted an interesting conversation.
So you find a woman that you get along with, but the two of you can just riff on thingsfor hours and you realize, Hey, that's a lot better than having a contentious woman.
(29:16):
You know, I'm raising my hand because that's a little bit of a self projection.
I used to think I wanted that kind of woman is weird as it sounds.
and realized the latter scenario that I presented was much better for me and that's whoI'm with today.
But I think that's exactly on point.
I think we brought up a whole lot of good things so far.
Zach, is there anything you want to leave guys with that maybe we didn't cover yet aboutperhaps fine tuning their psychology for better success with women in general?
(29:41):
I mean, to also add what you don't want is to just be like someone who's just analyzing.
Cause then you get like analysis paralysis.
It's important to like just go on the fields and experience and see what you like and whatyou don't.
And then just be authentic to yourself.
And if you have to unfortunately break someone's heart, cause it's not the right fit foryou, like do it because it's not fair to him or her to not do that.
(30:08):
Cause you're wasting their time.
That's a great point, and people do that too.
100 % they stay in something because they're like, I'm not saying grass is green on theother side.
It's if you, if you fundamentally believe you're in the wrong relationship or you'redating the wrong person, like trust your intuition because it's typically correct.
Yeah, staying with them because of shame and guilt is definitely not a strategy.
(30:30):
That's bad.
That's definitely bad.
His name is Zach Schlein and he is now the GM, the General Manager of Matchmaking at SparkNetworks.
And when you go to mountaintoppodcast.com front slash spark, you will be sent directly tothe matchmaking page at spark.com.
And what are they going to find there, Zach?
(30:51):
Yes, you'll learn all about our matchmaking program and what we offer.
Well, that seems pretty cut and dried and simple enough.
And so guys, you're definitely going to want to go to mountaintoppodcast.com front slashspark.
Zach Schlein from New York city.
Thanks once again for joining us.
I'm thrilled to hear that, you know, your career has evolved a little bit.
You're doing something a little bit different, but just as exciting and so glad that youjoined us today to share a little bit of insight on the psychology of attraction.
(31:18):
I think it's been a fun conversation and I hope to have you back.
Well, sooner than four years from now, at the very least, cause there's
certainly a lot to talk about.
You're a guy who is immersed in this field at least as much as I am and I appreciate youfor that.
Thanks again, man.
Yeah, Scott, that was a lot of fun.
Thanks so much for having me.
Yeah, man, absolutely.
Gentlemen, please go to mountaintoppodcast.com.
Check out everything we got that's brand new around there, including new soap from oursponsor, heros soap.com, including the triumphant return of spearmint soap, which is
(31:47):
actually my personal favorite.
You can check that out at mountaintoppodcast.com, heros soap.
And you can also be sure to check in with Jocko Willinks company, Origin in Maine atmountaintoppodcast.com front slash origin.
They've got
Brand new goodies there so you can look like a man wherever you go.
It's just fantastic always made in the USA and Last but not least the guys over at thekeyboard are always putting out new faceplates so you can customize your keyboard device
(32:16):
Find them at mountaintoppodcast.com front slash keyboard Whichever of our fine sponsorsare longtime sponsors I might add that you choose to work with Please do enter the coupon
code mountain 10 for 10 % off at checkout
Also guys, I'm gonna throw it on the table.
Some of you need to do some coaching and I've made it easier than ever to do that.
(32:38):
I have come out with an introductory program that is a great balance between doing nothingand signing up for one of my more advanced 10 plus programs.
This is the program that I present to people if they've never heard the podcast or neverbeen on my newsletter and just wanna kinda, you know.
Figure out whether we know what we're doing around here before diving into a biggerprogram.
(32:58):
It's called the introductory package.
It's $300 and it includes two full coaching sessions.
The ability to talk to me in between those coaching sessions with whatever comes up andemail coaching till at least two days after you're done the second session won't cost you
any more than that ever.
And if you do decide to work with us for a longer term, guess what?
(33:20):
That 300 bucks gets rolled in to your 10 plus program.
You can find out more about that by going to mountaintoppodcast.com frontslash intro.
That's mountaintoppodcast.com frontslash intro.
And as always guys, all of the goodies, all of the downloads, all the free stuff is alwaysthere for you at the main site, which is mountaintoppodcast.com.
(33:44):
And until I talk to you again real soon, this is Scot McKay from X & Y Communications inSan Antonio, Texas.
Be good out there.
you
The Mountaintop Podcast is produced by X & Y Communications, all rights reservedworldwide.
Be sure to visit www.mountaintoppodcast.com for show notes.
(34:08):
And while you're there, sign up for the free X & Y Communications newsletter for men.
This is Ed Roy Oldham speaking for the Mountaintop Podcast.
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