October 11, 2024 • 36 mins
In this special episode of The Leaders' Lounge, Marianne Rutz sits down with none other than Kevin Wilkinson - Founder of Ethical Maintenance and her husband! Together, they share an in-depth conversation about Kevin’s inspiring journey from a successful corporate career to building a Community Interest Company (CIC) that’s revolutionising property factoring in Scotland.
Kevin opens up about his decision to leave a well-established career and embrace entrepreneurship in a notoriously unloved industry. He shares insights into why property factoring in Scotland has been so problematic, and how Ethical Maintenance has risen to the challenge by putting homeowners first and creating a community-focused service model.
In this episode, Kevin and Marianne discuss:
- The history behind Ethical Maintenance and how it empowers homeowners to take control of their communal areas.
- Kevin’s role as an advisor to the Scottish Government during the creation of the Property Factors Act 2011 and his input in shaping the industry’s code of conduct.
- The challenges of serving an entire community versus individual homeowners, and how clear communication and transparency are key.
- The unique approach of Ethical Maintenance as a Community Interest Company and why that sets them apart from traditional property managers.
This episode offers a behind-the-scenes look at how Ethical Maintenance continues to disrupt the property factoring industry while staying true to its ethos of transparency, empowerment, and community engagement.
Resources Mentioned:
- Ethical Maintenance: ethicalmaintenance.org
- Connect with Kevin Wilkinson and Marianne Rutz on LinkedIn
Subscribe to The Leaders' Lounge for more insights on operational excellence, leadership, and creating lasting impact in your industry.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marianne Rutz (00:00):
Hello, bonjour, salud, greeting and welcome to
the leaders lounge, the successpodcast for ambitious leaders in
the operational excellencespace.
Each week, we feature powerfulinsights, training and
interviews, helping you todeliver operational excellence
(00:23):
in your business, leadingpeople, executing process,
amplifying profit. In thatorder, I'm your host, Marian,
CEO of ethical maintenance andthe owner of the leaders lounge.
I live and breathe operationalexcellence now in the property
(00:43):
maintenance management world.Now, I know this is a mouthful,
but I am so proud to bring mysuperpower customer experience
to a starving, underserved andunloved industry, and I'm
delighted to share my brownieswith you too. So thank you for
(01:05):
spending time with me. Helloeverybody, and welcome to this
week's operational excellenceshow. I'm absolutely delighted
to have a very, very specialguest. All of you probably know
that I started podcasting in2020 now today, the special
(01:26):
guest is Kevin Wilkinson, thefounder of ethical maintenance.
And yes, of course, my listenersknow he is also my husband.
Welcome to the show, Kevin.
Kevin Wilkinson (01:38):
That's good to be here. At last,
Marianne Rutz (01:40):
it's about time, I would say so too. Now today's
topic is really about factoringproperty management, property
factoring, as we call it inScotland, and also very much
about why would anyone actuallychoose a career in such an
unloved and not well regardedindustry at all. So the first
(02:05):
question to you, obviously, is,Kevin, you started ethical
maintenance well before we met.And why would you even consider
going out by yourself, goinginto entrepreneurship,
considering you in the past, youhad a very good career in a in
in a property factor firm.First, you had also a career in
(02:28):
the military. You worked for thegovernment. You traveled the
world. Why on earth would you doentrepreneurship in property
management?
Kevin Wilkinson (02:36):
It was just serendipity. At the time I was
working for. There's a longstory behind it, but I was
working for one of the largeproperty management companies. I
was lucky. I was in charge oftheir their services, their
services they provided tohomeowners. And to be honest, it
(02:57):
went really, really well. Weexpanded rapidly. And yes, it
was going, it was going reallyexcitingly, but, but it's a but
there were some flaws in in thebusiness model. And what was
very clear is that when youprovided the service, and when
(03:19):
you talk to the homeowners thatyou were providing the service
to, and you had the dialog andcould explain what was going on
and what they were paying for.Then it worked really well. But
actually, if you didn't talk tothem, it went horribly wrong.
And that's what happened inScotland, in about in the 2000s
(03:41):
let's say 2004 to 2000 Well,actually, some people would stay
still ongoing, but by about 20052006 it was in the press about
the industry provides such a badservice. It was on the news
programs on the television, andit was very clear, not only was
(04:03):
the firm that I was working forproviding a service that was
causing lots and lots ofproblems, but it was it was also
a service that actually peopleneeded to look after their
property and to have a Niceplace to live and to keep the
value of their investment andand somehow a lot of homeowners
(04:27):
didn't sort of engage with that,that concept. But where they
did, it worked really well, andthat was the prompt to to step
out of a successful career andset up. On why, on set up
ethical maintenance, and see ifwe could actually keep to the
ethos of serving the communityand and making it go well. And
(04:52):
to be honest, since then, we've,we've more or less managed that.
There's always bumps in theroad, but as soon as the
homeowners start to engage.Then, then they really
understand how it works and andit's gone from strength to
strength. And
Marianne Rutz (05:06):
when we started, I think I thought that it was
2007 Correct? Yeah, when youstarted off with ethical
maintenance at that time, I hopeI'm getting this right.
Otherwise you will keep youright. There was no property
factors act for Scotland. Isthat correct?
Kevin Wilkinson (05:25):
That's correct.
Marianne Rutz (05:27):
So let's expand a little bit on that. Clearly, the
industry was so bad it wasmisused or abused, so that the
Scottish government felt theyhad to step in, and they started
consult with factors. Theystarted to see what can happen,
what should happen. How shouldfactors be regulated, if at all,
(05:50):
or at least registered, I'massuming they weren't before
this, before the Act came intoplay. And tell us a little bit
of how you ended up being partor be being an advisor to that
parliamentary group in in thegovernment, whilst at the same
time you're just building a newbusiness. I mean, juggling both
(06:13):
is is asking a lot for commonentrepreneur. At the same time
you build a business, you try tobring some legislation into the
into the world of propertyfactoring. That was, you know,
you know, government's taken offa long time to get things going,
and the act only came into playin 2011 How did that work for
(06:34):
you? Why did you even engagethere? You surely had your hands
full otherwise.
Kevin Wilkinson (06:38):
Well, it well, it's back to so. The fundamental
principles are, the homeownerhas the responsibility to look
after the home, yeah, but a lotdon't, and that is truly
amazing, and that's part ofwhere ethical maintenance is
different, because we talk tothem and say, Look, this is your
responsibility now, to lookafter their home, and you can
(07:02):
imagine, in a block, block offlats, they probably look after
their own flat, but who looksafter the how they get into the
building? Who looks after theroof, who cleans the stairs, who
looks after the garden? Well,it's those homeowners that do
it, but because so manyhomeowners did not engage with
that. Then most property factorstook it on themselves just to
(07:26):
get on and do it. But they tookit on themselves in such a way
without telling the homeowners.They they did jobs without
telling the homeowners. Andsometimes when they asked
homeowners, when the homeownersasked for work, it was never
done, and sometimes it was notdone and it was charged for so
(07:46):
you can see that that's why itgot in the press and the news.
And then as soon as you thehomeowner didn't pay for work
that wasn't done, then theproperty factors, debt
collection procedures, got intogear and and pursued these
people for for payment. Andthat's why it got in the press.
That's why it got on the news.And then people started writing
(08:09):
to their MPs and to the theMSPs, and that's why Parliament
took it up. Now, in fairness toParliament, they said, well, we
better do something about this.We better find out what's going
on. We better talk to theindustry and and before they did
that, they got consumer,consumer focus Scotland and the
(08:33):
English equivalent of theconsumer Association, to look at
property factoring. Andbasically, they came up with the
industries broken. There is nodialog between the customer and
the service provider. Thecustomer can't walk away. The
customer is stuck with a poorservice. And that's why,
(08:53):
fundamentally, where, where itall went wrong. And because of
that, the government then said,well, we better talk to
everybody and ask the propertymanagers why they weren't
talking to the homeowners, whythey were not helping the
homeowners. And because we sothey so the government was
talking to loads of people inthe industry, but because we
(09:13):
were different, and we were setup to do exactly what the
government wanted, and actuallynot what the government wanted,
what all the homeowners wanted.Then they invited in as as part
of the panel to advise on whatwas going on. And that was not
only in setting up the propertyfactors act, but the key part of
that was the code of conduct forproperty factors, for property
(09:38):
managers. And we had a majorinput into saying, you know,
there needs to be that dialog.You need to enable the
homeowners to talk to you, andyou need to tell them what you
a, what you're doing, and B,that they're in charge, and that
tell them what they're payingfor, which in most industries
you just said, was a prettybasic thing, but it. It just
(10:00):
wasn't happening in propertymanagement in Scotland. Hence
the government stepped in, andhence they talked to lots of
people, and we were part ofthat. And
Marianne Rutz (10:12):
it's interesting, this communication piece that
you just alluded to is clearlythe one that still today makes
or breaks the community and theproperty the success of a
property factoring company, aswe can see every day, as we now
work together as a result ofthat engagement with the
(10:34):
Scottish Government, youobviously got noted, and you
were even published in theparliamentary review in 2020,
and that was in support ofrecognizing the ethical
maintenance contribution to theindustry, the reputation of the
industry, and how the industryhad changed. That was, if I
(10:56):
recall correctly, probably thefirst outing as a husband and
wife team, when we got invitedby Lord blanket to the House of
Lords for to celebrate thatrecognition, and at that
gathering, there were, we wereasked a number of times, you
know, what is this with ethicalmaintenance? CIC, why did you
(11:20):
set your firm up as a communityinterest company, where, in
fact, it is just not muchdifferent than a limited
company. Can you just talk to usabout that? Because people then
think it's a community interestcompany. Oh, well, it's a
charity, is it?
Kevin Wilkinson (11:39):
There's two areas that you've just covered
over there being published inthe parliamentary review,
obviously being engaged in thesetting up of the property
factors act 2011 then then wegot some profile out of that,
but then continuing to providethe service, and growing, and
(12:00):
then growing the business andbeing recognized across the
industry as something different,and then continuing to do it,
and getting all our work frompeople who actually then use the
property of actors act to switchfrom their their the service
that they didn't want, to aservice that they did want, and
(12:21):
that was part of why we wererecognized by the parliamentary
review. And in essence, theparliamentary review was, is a
Westminster organization set upto promote British industry. And
there's all different sectors.There's manufacturing, there's
(12:43):
it in electronics, and there's aproperty section, and in that we
were recognized as an industrybest practice provider because
of the way our services aredelivered. And then that got us
into the parliamentary reviewand published and obviously
being invited down toWestminster, which was all very,
(13:07):
very nice. Yes, that'sdifferent. So and then the
second part of what you talkedabout was becoming a Community
Interest Company. It really thechallenge when we started out,
is if the consumer Associationand consumer focused Scotland
said there are one or two goodones, but actually most of the
(13:27):
industry is not providing aservice, the service could be
improved considerably. What'sthe point in changing property
factor? You jump in, out of thefrying pan, into the fire,
you're going from one badservice provider to the next
service provider that may or maynot be any better. And so we
(13:49):
thought, well, how are we goingto distinguish ourselves? Why
would anybody trust us? Whyaren't we going to be just
assumed to be like every otherproperty manager? Yeah, and
looking around, and that's whywe became a social enterprise
serving our communities, andwere registered as a community
(14:11):
interest company. And the two,what the community interest
company style of legal setup is,there is a regulator of
community interest companies.There is loose regulation of
property factors now, throughthe Scottish through the
property factors act. Butactually, anybody who reads the
(14:32):
results of the first tierTribunal will know that lots of
homeowners think the tribunalsare could be given a lot more
power. So we are doublyregulated. We're regulated the
same ethical maintenance isdoubly regulated. We're
regulated by the propertyfactors act through the first
tier property tribunal. Ifanybody doesn't, then that's
(14:56):
basically a court. In fact. Whythe tribunal one of the. Reasons
the tribunal was set up is thatthere were so many claims
against the existing propertyfactors that it clogged the
courts up, and they had to setup a tribunal that was
experienced in running propertymatters and that could deal with
(15:16):
the volume of cases against theproperty factors in a timely
way. And the point of being acommunity interest company is,
not only did we have thatregulation, like all the other
property managers, but we've gota second tier of regulation
through the Community InterestCompany regulator. And
basically, if there is acomplaint that is upheld, then
(15:40):
the community interest companyregulator has the power to serve
management orders on ethicalmaintenance, to tell us to serve
our community, and if we don't,the regulator can remove the
directors. That would be me andno other property factor. Can
you actually remove thedirectors of the company for not
(16:03):
providing a service. So that'swhy we went down the line to to
be different and to give ourhomeowners the reassurance that
they really did have control,whereas the if going with
somebody else in the industry,they don't have that level of
control. And
Marianne Rutz (16:20):
that really leads nicely to that distinction.
There is a clear distinction howto serve the community versus
how serving an individual. Canyou elaborate on that? Because
you said earlier on in the inour discussion, people look
after their own flat or aftertheir own house, if they are
(16:41):
talking a housing estate, butthey hardly ever consider the
environment, either the block offloods they live in, or if they
live in an estate, theplayground that's part of the
estate, or whatever it may be.How? How does this service? How
do you serve a community?Basically, because you can
(17:03):
hardly say to an individual,rather, can't help you. Sorry.
Kevin Wilkinson (17:06):
When anybody buys a property, there are the
regulations on basically howthey live with the neighbors and
how they get on with theneighbors. And it's clearer in a
block of flats you mentionedthere the environment and the
playgrounds. But actually, in ablock of flats, it's either more
important who looks after theroof if there's a leak in the
(17:30):
roof, is it just the top flatsthat pay, or is it all of them?
But basically, when every flatowner in that block bought the
flat, then they agreed, throughthe legal agreement when they
bought the flat, the title deedsthat they would contribute to
the repair of the roof. Theywould contribute to the
(17:51):
insurance of the building. Theywould contribute to the repairs
of the common areas. And yes, itdoes throw up issues individual
flat owners or and the same onhousing estates as well.
Individuals want differentlevels of service, and that's
(18:12):
and that's fine, but what theyagreed when they bought their
property was that they wouldwork with their neighbors, and
they would all come to anagreement on the common areas
and the common parts, and thenthey would all pay for the
maintenance and the repair ofthose areas. So in essence, an
individual can't come to us andsay, we want the stairs cleaned
(18:35):
every week, and the next theirname, their neighbor comes to
us, oh, I don't want to pay forall that. I just want to clean
once a month. Point is they haveto come to an agreement
together, and then, as theiragent, we'll do whatever they
then they ask us to do. And sothat's you can't it's not like
(18:55):
being a customer in a shop. Whenyou say, Well, I'd like to buy
that. I'd like to pay for thatservice. You've got to talk to
your neighbors, and you've allgot to decide what the service
is. And that's the differencebetween serving a community.
It's a community decision, notan individual decision.
Marianne Rutz (19:14):
And you just mentioned that it's regulated in
title deeds. And in allfairness, the very first house I
bought in Scotland. I didn'thave a clue. I didn't know that
I had the title deeds. I didn'tknow that I was supposed to know
what they said, and I didn'tactually know that they
regulated how I paid my factor.So since joining, obviously at
(19:35):
the ethical maintenance team,I've read countless title deeds
and at the staff are reallythought they were gibberish.
They're very they are written inendless sentences with no comma
and no full stop. They're justthey're just a whole lot of
legal jargon. How do you makesure that your homeowners, or I
(19:56):
should now say our homeowners,really understand. That their
title deeds are actually thebackbone of how they live
together as community and whatthey can do and what they cannot
do. There's various
Kevin Wilkinson (20:08):
different ways. But right at the start of the
service, from ethicalmaintenance, we tell them about
the service and why they need topay for it. That's the written
statement of services. And itwill say in your title deeds,
this burden, this section, thisparagraph, it says you've got to
(20:29):
pay for the maintenance of thecommon areas. So right at the
start, they know that they'regoing to have to pay for it.
Whether they all read it, is, isa different question, and when
they do really? Do theyunderstand it? Probably some do,
some don't. But we meet with ourhomeowners every year and and
(20:50):
basically the point of meetingwith them is to say, how has it
gone so far? Can we improve onanything? And do you want
something different? And what doyou want going forward. And it's
at that point, what do you wantgoing forward? We say, well,
that's fine, and it's great thatthat you're here at this
meeting, but actually, to worktogether as a community, you
(21:13):
need if, let's say you're in thetenement with eight flats, then
we need at least five of you tocome to the meeting and say,
This is what we want. So weexplain it how they work
together at the meetings that wehold. And then some people
think, well, actually, oh, wehad an interesting one the other
day. The building was built inthe 1970s and there's a few
(21:39):
owners now with electricelectric cars, which is totally
understandable, and they want toput an electric charger on the
outside of the building toservice the cars. Now it is it
was a new estate, a new block offlats. It would probably be
there already, but the deedswritten in 1970 didn't even
(22:04):
imagine electric cars or water,and it just said, and an owner
who's not allowed to change theoutside of the building us,
yeah, so, so interestingly, thefirst thing is to say, and, and
what's, what's really got theirattention and for the community
Here is, is that a couple ofowners have said, No, we don't
want electric car chargers onthe outside of this building,
(22:27):
and the deeds say we don't.We're not allowed to make
changes to the outside of thebuilding unless we all agree on
it. But the deeds also say thatthe community can make rules of
how they live together, and sowe've gone into the deeds and
gone through paragraph byparagraph and said, Well, you
(22:48):
can do this, and you can dothat, and this is how you work
together to do this. So asissues arise, so how we go into
this discussion as issues arise,then we explain to them what
their deeds see. And the pointof this is, unlike homeowners,
feel other factors deal withthis is we make sure our
(23:08):
homeowners are in charge. Theyknow what's going on, they know
what their responsibilities are,and they know how to make
decisions, and then they makethe decisions. We don't ethical
maintenance doesn't make anydecisions. It's always the
homeowners that make thedecisions. And
Marianne Rutz (23:25):
I think that's a fundamental insight, that we as
the factor, as the propertyfactor, we can only do what you
ask us to do. It's actuallypretty straightforward anything
that we as factor, factors arenot asked to do. We cannot just
do, or if we do, we have nohandle to issue a bill or
(23:50):
literally, we don't have a legala legal leg to stand on, haven't
we? If we were just to go aheadand do things and then charge
homeowners for it without prioragreement or at least a
framework to obtain thatagreement. Yeah, that's
basically it. So, yeah, wediscussed that a couple of
times. My listeners know you'remy husband. They also know that
(24:14):
I have worked in the in thecustomer experience space for
many, many, many years, and whenI joined ethical maintenance,
for me, it was very clear, I'mnot joining for the factoring,
end of saying I'm joining forthe homeowner experience side of
things, for what we loosely callCX. And therefore I probably,
(24:37):
when I first started, went in alittle bit. No. Light. And
thought, Oh, well, I can, I cantake this thing and turn it
around. It's not quite thatsimple. But what we have done,
or what we are doing in ethicalmaintenance, very, very clearly,
is holding this communication toour homeowners really high,
(24:57):
whether or not they like toengage. And that's their
prerogative, but we engage andwe change the number of things,
how we how we deal with ourhomeowners. We issue
newsletters, for example, weissue quarterly, monthly,
whatever update is needed to thehomeowners. We meet with them.
You brought me in, and I'm surethere wasn't an easy decision,
(25:20):
although you always said youwanted me in the business, but
sometimes, surely you think, Oh,my God, she drives me, Matt,
would that be a fair assessment?
Kevin Wilkinson (25:29):
Absolutely not. We've both got different
approaches to there's two issuesand and that what makes a good,
a strong, a stronger team. Wedon't always agree and totally
comfortable not agreeing. Butthen when we don't agree, we've
just got to find a way forward.
Marianne Rutz (25:49):
I think it goes with that. Say we agree to
disagree, and then we just needto, we need to find, we really
need to find the way forward.And I think here is where our
leadership colors, if you wantto go quickly into that, not in
much detail. So for ourlisteners, we did have a team
day in August where we in depth,looked at how we lead, what type
(26:11):
of color, if you, if you know,if you're familiar with the
color coded leadership or thecolor coded behaviors, if not,
you can go and get the bookthat's called surrounded by
idiots, by Thomas Ericsson. Youcan read it all in there. Long
story short, I am a very clearRed Leader, which means I am
very focused on processes. I'mvery focused on procedures. But
(26:36):
Kevin, you are red and green,right? If I remember correctly,
yeah. And how does that show?
Kevin Wilkinson (26:42):
So I've done loads of these psychometric
things, from Myers Briggs to theThomas International to Colby to
to whatever. But fundamentally,in what we've got four corners
blue is the steady person thatlikes to follow procedures and
(27:05):
doesn't like change a lot. Greenis the team worker who brings
everything together. Yellow isthe artistic, quick start, sort
of person who would be good insales and marketing and red is
the process driven. But if youdon't follow the process, then L
(27:26):
mend you. So most of the time,I'm green, which means I'm I'm
supportive and and there'sthings like, there's no such
thing as a bad question, just apoor teacher. So if you haven't
been taught how to do something,then it's great asking, and I'll
show you how to do it. However,on the third time of asking
(27:49):
exactly the same question, Iflipped from Green, supportive
to red, process and dominant.And say, this has been shown to
you three times already. Ifyou're asking a different
question, I'll flip back togreen. But if you're asking the
same question again, then it'sno longer the poor teacher, it's
(28:12):
the poor student, and you needto pull your socks up and and
people know that I can make thatexplicitly clear, and that's how
my leadership style works. And
Marianne Rutz (28:24):
so far, I think we, we all know that we are
watched by our teams, probablymore so than you know the team
members watch each other. Wehave already established most of
them are blue. That doesn't makeit extra exactly the most,
easiest combination peoplewaiting to be guided. Where, in
(28:45):
a growing business, you needpeople that take the lead, and
they just, they drive, and theyjust do things. Hence, when I
came in, for me, it's alwaysvery it's very clear you have to
inform people. You have toeducate people, and you empower
them. Talk a little bit to ourlisteners, how we do this. I
don't know. You will say thatthese are not your words. They
(29:05):
are my words, and they are Iaccept that. So information,
education and empowerment. Howdoes this show now in ethical
maintenance?
Kevin Wilkinson (29:15):
So that's fundamentally how we work with
the homeowners. Very clearly,most of them don't understand
the responsibilities they tookon when they bought the
property, and so we we help themand show them where it is in
their deeds. And if they don'thave a copy of the deeds, show
how to get a copy of the deeds,and we provide the information.
(29:39):
And then once they've got theinformation, then we educate
them on using it. So to do thisjob, it me. What it says in the
deeds is this. So this is howyou need to approach it. You
can't just say, I would like thestairs painted green this week.
You have to work with everybodyelse and and so we educate them.
And. Then on the empowerment, weactually hold meetings and
(30:03):
invite all the homeowners tocome to it and what we see. But
you can run your own meetings,and we'll support you and and in
some properties, they do, that'swhen they get the best service,
because they're all workingtogether, they're empowered to
do stuff and, you know, and ifthey're not running their own
(30:23):
stuff, and they want to come tomeetings, so come to discussions
on on what they want with us,then we say, well, and the way
you're going to get your resultis by talking to your neighbors
before you come to the meeting,and work through the issues and
how the votes going to run. Soyou are all empowered to make a
(30:44):
decision at the meeting. Andreally that's that's the way it
goes.
Marianne Rutz (30:48):
And I would say the same applies to our team
members. We know that theythere's a lot to know in our
industry, so we offer them theopportunity to inform themselves
about what does the property theProperty Act in Scotland
actually say, what, whattribunal have been held? They
(31:08):
cannot. They can read up on thatwe we put them to education. You
are probably the one that doesthat much more when it comes to
the subject matter than I do,because, you know, inside out
and then it makes you go andjust do it, because, you know,
we do things based on what weknow and the best foot forward.
(31:30):
Yes, sometimes it might not goright, but chances are 80% of
the time it is, it is right andit is, it is good, from what,
what do you now see? How, howthe firm has grown? How do you
make sure that this ethos staysalive, that you are not falling
(31:52):
into the same scheme of propertyfactoring that you absolutely
never wanted to fall into in thefirst place. Basically
Kevin Wilkinson (32:02):
the procedures in the company, where we didn't
want to be is we don't want tobe doing work that has not been
instructed and that thecommunity don't want to pay for.
And basically all the proceduresare in place. Have the
homeowners actually voted forthis and have they actually paid
(32:22):
for it? That's the essence ofit. So with those it can't
actually, with ethicalmaintenance, it can't actually
run any differently, becausethat's how all the work and all
the jobs are set up. Ifsomebody, if one of the team,
went off and instructed work,then that hadn't been voted for
by the homeowners. You know,they know they're in full breach
(32:44):
of the procedures. Yeah,
Marianne Rutz (32:46):
so procedures really then form the background,
as we said earlier, based on thetitle deeds, the procedures kick
in, and based on what thehomeowners vote wanted in the
various meetings, we act upontheir vote whether or not we
they wanted a and by when theywanted and how. So it's it's
really again, it comes into thecommunity, and it comes into
(33:09):
communication, and it comes intomaking sure that we all know
what has been said at any onetime on behalf of the whole
owner
Kevin Wilkinson (33:21):
that be fair? Yeah, no, that's the way it is,
yeah.
Marianne Rutz (33:25):
So from that on, I can imagine that probably one
or the other listener nowthinks, hmm, I have a factor. I
don't know. I don't knowanything about it, or I don't
know anything about factoring.And I want to know more. I would
quite like to talk to ethicalmaintenance. Where do they go?
Kevin, go
Kevin Wilkinson (33:43):
to the website, www, dot ethical
maintenance.org, that's O, R, G,and you'll get all the contact
details. And just phone up andsay, I listen to that podcast.
I'd like to know more. And we'llget back to you. Brilliant.
Marianne Rutz (33:57):
So all our listeners, we will put that link
into the show notes. If you wantto get in contact, fill in the
contact form, or better, ringus. Give us a call. Say who you
are, refer to the podcast, andeither Kevin myself or one from
our team will get back to you.Kevin. Thank you very much for
(34:21):
being my guest. It was anabsolute pleasure and our
listeners, I hope you enjoyedthis. I hope it gave you a bit
of an insight of what we do andhow we are positively different,
as in, factoring than ourcompetitors are. Thank you very
much. Bye, bye. Before we wrapthis episode up, I would like to
(34:45):
tell you about my mastermind theuser lounge. This is a small by
invitation only room for eightto 10 executives in the property
maintenance management industryor related services. So for
example, accountants dealingwith property management
trainers. Human Resources, etc.It's a place for an honest,
(35:09):
elevated conversation aroundwhat's going on, where we
struggle with and how we cansupport each other better. I
only open this forum once ortwice a year, so if you would
like to be considered for it,please do let me know either via
instant message on LinkedIn, myLinkedIn profile or via email,
(35:33):
that's Marianne at theleaderslounge.co.uk, and please
put the leaders lounge into thesubject line. Please leave us a
review on your chosen podcastingpath platform. It really helps,
because it helps to get theworld out to leaders who want to
make a difference in theirindustry. I will be very, very
(35:57):
grateful. Thank you very muchfor that. And last but not
least, let me tell you, thispodcast is teamwork. I couldn't
do it on my own. A big shout outto my audio technician and
technology. With technology,technology, visit Mike Roberts.
He is the owner of makingdigital real, an awesome support
(36:20):
to have. Thank you so much,Mike. If you want to find out
what we are up to, head over toethical maintenance.org where
you can find us and until nexttime bye, bye,
Hello, bonjour, salud, greeting and welcome to
the leaders lounge, the successpodcast for ambitious leaders in
the operational excellencespace.
Each week, we feature powerfulinsights, training and
interviews, helping you todeliver operational excellence
(00:23):
in your business, leadingpeople, executing process,
amplifying profit. In thatorder, I'm your host, Marian,
CEO of ethical maintenance andthe owner of the leaders lounge.
I live and breathe operationalexcellence now in the property
(00:43):
maintenance management world.Now, I know this is a mouthful,
but I am so proud to bring mysuperpower customer experience
to a starving, underserved andunloved industry, and I'm
delighted to share my brownieswith you too. So thank you for
(01:05):
spending time with me. Helloeverybody, and welcome to this
week's operational excellenceshow. I'm absolutely delighted
to have a very, very specialguest. All of you probably know
that I started podcasting in2020 now today, the special
(01:26):
guest is Kevin Wilkinson, thefounder of ethical maintenance.
And yes, of course, my listenersknow he is also my husband.
Welcome to the show, Kevin.
Kevin Wilkinson (01:38):
That's good to be here. At last,
Marianne Rutz (01:40):
it's about time, I would say so too. Now today's
topic is really about factoringproperty management, property
factoring, as we call it inScotland, and also very much
about why would anyone actuallychoose a career in such an
unloved and not well regardedindustry at all. So the first
(02:05):
question to you, obviously, is,Kevin, you started ethical
maintenance well before we met.And why would you even consider
going out by yourself, goinginto entrepreneurship,
considering you in the past, youhad a very good career in a in
in a property factor firm.First, you had also a career in
(02:28):
the military. You worked for thegovernment. You traveled the
world. Why on earth would you doentrepreneurship in property
management?
Kevin Wilkinson (02:36):
It was just serendipity. At the time I was
working for. There's a longstory behind it, but I was
working for one of the largeproperty management companies. I
was lucky. I was in charge oftheir their services, their
services they provided tohomeowners. And to be honest, it
(02:57):
went really, really well. Weexpanded rapidly. And yes, it
was going, it was going reallyexcitingly, but, but it's a but
there were some flaws in in thebusiness model. And what was
very clear is that when youprovided the service, and when
(03:19):
you talk to the homeowners thatyou were providing the service
to, and you had the dialog andcould explain what was going on
and what they were paying for.Then it worked really well. But
actually, if you didn't talk tothem, it went horribly wrong.
And that's what happened inScotland, in about in the 2000s
(03:41):
let's say 2004 to 2000 Well,actually, some people would stay
still ongoing, but by about 20052006 it was in the press about
the industry provides such a badservice. It was on the news
programs on the television, andit was very clear, not only was
(04:03):
the firm that I was working forproviding a service that was
causing lots and lots ofproblems, but it was it was also
a service that actually peopleneeded to look after their
property and to have a Niceplace to live and to keep the
value of their investment andand somehow a lot of homeowners
(04:27):
didn't sort of engage with that,that concept. But where they
did, it worked really well, andthat was the prompt to to step
out of a successful career andset up. On why, on set up
ethical maintenance, and see ifwe could actually keep to the
ethos of serving the communityand and making it go well. And
(04:52):
to be honest, since then, we've,we've more or less managed that.
There's always bumps in theroad, but as soon as the
homeowners start to engage.Then, then they really
understand how it works and andit's gone from strength to
strength. And
Marianne Rutz (05:06):
when we started, I think I thought that it was
2007 Correct? Yeah, when youstarted off with ethical
maintenance at that time, I hopeI'm getting this right.
Otherwise you will keep youright. There was no property
factors act for Scotland. Isthat correct?
Kevin Wilkinson (05:25):
That's correct.
Marianne Rutz (05:27):
So let's expand a little bit on that. Clearly, the
industry was so bad it wasmisused or abused, so that the
Scottish government felt theyhad to step in, and they started
consult with factors. Theystarted to see what can happen,
what should happen. How shouldfactors be regulated, if at all,
(05:50):
or at least registered, I'massuming they weren't before
this, before the Act came intoplay. And tell us a little bit
of how you ended up being partor be being an advisor to that
parliamentary group in in thegovernment, whilst at the same
time you're just building a newbusiness. I mean, juggling both
(06:13):
is is asking a lot for commonentrepreneur. At the same time
you build a business, you try tobring some legislation into the
into the world of propertyfactoring. That was, you know,
you know, government's taken offa long time to get things going,
and the act only came into playin 2011 How did that work for
(06:34):
you? Why did you even engagethere? You surely had your hands
full otherwise.
Kevin Wilkinson (06:38):
Well, it well, it's back to so. The fundamental
principles are, the homeownerhas the responsibility to look
after the home, yeah, but a lotdon't, and that is truly
amazing, and that's part ofwhere ethical maintenance is
different, because we talk tothem and say, Look, this is your
responsibility now, to lookafter their home, and you can
(07:02):
imagine, in a block, block offlats, they probably look after
their own flat, but who looksafter the how they get into the
building? Who looks after theroof, who cleans the stairs, who
looks after the garden? Well,it's those homeowners that do
it, but because so manyhomeowners did not engage with
that. Then most property factorstook it on themselves just to
(07:26):
get on and do it. But they tookit on themselves in such a way
without telling the homeowners.They they did jobs without
telling the homeowners. Andsometimes when they asked
homeowners, when the homeownersasked for work, it was never
done, and sometimes it was notdone and it was charged for so
(07:46):
you can see that that's why itgot in the press and the news.
And then as soon as you thehomeowner didn't pay for work
that wasn't done, then theproperty factors, debt
collection procedures, got intogear and and pursued these
people for for payment. Andthat's why it got in the press.
That's why it got on the news.And then people started writing
(08:09):
to their MPs and to the theMSPs, and that's why Parliament
took it up. Now, in fairness toParliament, they said, well, we
better do something about this.We better find out what's going
on. We better talk to theindustry and and before they did
that, they got consumer,consumer focus Scotland and the
(08:33):
English equivalent of theconsumer Association, to look at
property factoring. Andbasically, they came up with the
industries broken. There is nodialog between the customer and
the service provider. Thecustomer can't walk away. The
customer is stuck with a poorservice. And that's why,
(08:53):
fundamentally, where, where itall went wrong. And because of
that, the government then said,well, we better talk to
everybody and ask the propertymanagers why they weren't
talking to the homeowners, whythey were not helping the
homeowners. And because we sothey so the government was
talking to loads of people inthe industry, but because we
(09:13):
were different, and we were setup to do exactly what the
government wanted, and actuallynot what the government wanted,
what all the homeowners wanted.Then they invited in as as part
of the panel to advise on whatwas going on. And that was not
only in setting up the propertyfactors act, but the key part of
that was the code of conduct forproperty factors, for property
(09:38):
managers. And we had a majorinput into saying, you know,
there needs to be that dialog.You need to enable the
homeowners to talk to you, andyou need to tell them what you
a, what you're doing, and B,that they're in charge, and that
tell them what they're payingfor, which in most industries
you just said, was a prettybasic thing, but it. It just
(10:00):
wasn't happening in propertymanagement in Scotland. Hence
the government stepped in, andhence they talked to lots of
people, and we were part ofthat. And
Marianne Rutz (10:12):
it's interesting, this communication piece that
you just alluded to is clearlythe one that still today makes
or breaks the community and theproperty the success of a
property factoring company, aswe can see every day, as we now
work together as a result ofthat engagement with the
(10:34):
Scottish Government, youobviously got noted, and you
were even published in theparliamentary review in 2020,
and that was in support ofrecognizing the ethical
maintenance contribution to theindustry, the reputation of the
industry, and how the industryhad changed. That was, if I
(10:56):
recall correctly, probably thefirst outing as a husband and
wife team, when we got invitedby Lord blanket to the House of
Lords for to celebrate thatrecognition, and at that
gathering, there were, we wereasked a number of times, you
know, what is this with ethicalmaintenance? CIC, why did you
(11:20):
set your firm up as a communityinterest company, where, in
fact, it is just not muchdifferent than a limited
company. Can you just talk to usabout that? Because people then
think it's a community interestcompany. Oh, well, it's a
charity, is it?
Kevin Wilkinson (11:39):
There's two areas that you've just covered
over there being published inthe parliamentary review,
obviously being engaged in thesetting up of the property
factors act 2011 then then wegot some profile out of that,
but then continuing to providethe service, and growing, and
(12:00):
then growing the business andbeing recognized across the
industry as something different,and then continuing to do it,
and getting all our work frompeople who actually then use the
property of actors act to switchfrom their their the service
that they didn't want, to aservice that they did want, and
(12:21):
that was part of why we wererecognized by the parliamentary
review. And in essence, theparliamentary review was, is a
Westminster organization set upto promote British industry. And
there's all different sectors.There's manufacturing, there's
(12:43):
it in electronics, and there's aproperty section, and in that we
were recognized as an industrybest practice provider because
of the way our services aredelivered. And then that got us
into the parliamentary reviewand published and obviously
being invited down toWestminster, which was all very,
(13:07):
very nice. Yes, that'sdifferent. So and then the
second part of what you talkedabout was becoming a Community
Interest Company. It really thechallenge when we started out,
is if the consumer Associationand consumer focused Scotland
said there are one or two goodones, but actually most of the
(13:27):
industry is not providing aservice, the service could be
improved considerably. What'sthe point in changing property
factor? You jump in, out of thefrying pan, into the fire,
you're going from one badservice provider to the next
service provider that may or maynot be any better. And so we
(13:49):
thought, well, how are we goingto distinguish ourselves? Why
would anybody trust us? Whyaren't we going to be just
assumed to be like every otherproperty manager? Yeah, and
looking around, and that's whywe became a social enterprise
serving our communities, andwere registered as a community
(14:11):
interest company. And the two,what the community interest
company style of legal setup is,there is a regulator of
community interest companies.There is loose regulation of
property factors now, throughthe Scottish through the
property factors act. Butactually, anybody who reads the
(14:32):
results of the first tierTribunal will know that lots of
homeowners think the tribunalsare could be given a lot more
power. So we are doublyregulated. We're regulated the
same ethical maintenance isdoubly regulated. We're
regulated by the propertyfactors act through the first
tier property tribunal. Ifanybody doesn't, then that's
(14:56):
basically a court. In fact. Whythe tribunal one of the. Reasons
the tribunal was set up is thatthere were so many claims
against the existing propertyfactors that it clogged the
courts up, and they had to setup a tribunal that was
experienced in running propertymatters and that could deal with
(15:16):
the volume of cases against theproperty factors in a timely
way. And the point of being acommunity interest company is,
not only did we have thatregulation, like all the other
property managers, but we've gota second tier of regulation
through the Community InterestCompany regulator. And
basically, if there is acomplaint that is upheld, then
(15:40):
the community interest companyregulator has the power to serve
management orders on ethicalmaintenance, to tell us to serve
our community, and if we don't,the regulator can remove the
directors. That would be me andno other property factor. Can
you actually remove thedirectors of the company for not
(16:03):
providing a service. So that'swhy we went down the line to to
be different and to give ourhomeowners the reassurance that
they really did have control,whereas the if going with
somebody else in the industry,they don't have that level of
control. And
Marianne Rutz (16:20):
that really leads nicely to that distinction.
There is a clear distinction howto serve the community versus
how serving an individual. Canyou elaborate on that? Because
you said earlier on in the inour discussion, people look
after their own flat or aftertheir own house, if they are
(16:41):
talking a housing estate, butthey hardly ever consider the
environment, either the block offloods they live in, or if they
live in an estate, theplayground that's part of the
estate, or whatever it may be.How? How does this service? How
do you serve a community?Basically, because you can
(17:03):
hardly say to an individual,rather, can't help you. Sorry.
Kevin Wilkinson (17:06):
When anybody buys a property, there are the
regulations on basically howthey live with the neighbors and
how they get on with theneighbors. And it's clearer in a
block of flats you mentionedthere the environment and the
playgrounds. But actually, in ablock of flats, it's either more
important who looks after theroof if there's a leak in the
(17:30):
roof, is it just the top flatsthat pay, or is it all of them?
But basically, when every flatowner in that block bought the
flat, then they agreed, throughthe legal agreement when they
bought the flat, the title deedsthat they would contribute to
the repair of the roof. Theywould contribute to the
(17:51):
insurance of the building. Theywould contribute to the repairs
of the common areas. And yes, itdoes throw up issues individual
flat owners or and the same onhousing estates as well.
Individuals want differentlevels of service, and that's
(18:12):
and that's fine, but what theyagreed when they bought their
property was that they wouldwork with their neighbors, and
they would all come to anagreement on the common areas
and the common parts, and thenthey would all pay for the
maintenance and the repair ofthose areas. So in essence, an
individual can't come to us andsay, we want the stairs cleaned
(18:35):
every week, and the next theirname, their neighbor comes to
us, oh, I don't want to pay forall that. I just want to clean
once a month. Point is they haveto come to an agreement
together, and then, as theiragent, we'll do whatever they
then they ask us to do. And sothat's you can't it's not like
(18:55):
being a customer in a shop. Whenyou say, Well, I'd like to buy
that. I'd like to pay for thatservice. You've got to talk to
your neighbors, and you've allgot to decide what the service
is. And that's the differencebetween serving a community.
It's a community decision, notan individual decision.
Marianne Rutz (19:14):
And you just mentioned that it's regulated in
title deeds. And in allfairness, the very first house I
bought in Scotland. I didn'thave a clue. I didn't know that
I had the title deeds. I didn'tknow that I was supposed to know
what they said, and I didn'tactually know that they
regulated how I paid my factor.So since joining, obviously at
(19:35):
the ethical maintenance team,I've read countless title deeds
and at the staff are reallythought they were gibberish.
They're very they are written inendless sentences with no comma
and no full stop. They're justthey're just a whole lot of
legal jargon. How do you makesure that your homeowners, or I
(19:56):
should now say our homeowners,really understand. That their
title deeds are actually thebackbone of how they live
together as community and whatthey can do and what they cannot
do. There's various
Kevin Wilkinson (20:08):
different ways. But right at the start of the
service, from ethicalmaintenance, we tell them about
the service and why they need topay for it. That's the written
statement of services. And itwill say in your title deeds,
this burden, this section, thisparagraph, it says you've got to
(20:29):
pay for the maintenance of thecommon areas. So right at the
start, they know that they'regoing to have to pay for it.
Whether they all read it, is, isa different question, and when
they do really? Do theyunderstand it? Probably some do,
some don't. But we meet with ourhomeowners every year and and
(20:50):
basically the point of meetingwith them is to say, how has it
gone so far? Can we improve onanything? And do you want
something different? And what doyou want going forward. And it's
at that point, what do you wantgoing forward? We say, well,
that's fine, and it's great thatthat you're here at this
meeting, but actually, to worktogether as a community, you
(21:13):
need if, let's say you're in thetenement with eight flats, then
we need at least five of you tocome to the meeting and say,
This is what we want. So weexplain it how they work
together at the meetings that wehold. And then some people
think, well, actually, oh, wehad an interesting one the other
day. The building was built inthe 1970s and there's a few
(21:39):
owners now with electricelectric cars, which is totally
understandable, and they want toput an electric charger on the
outside of the building toservice the cars. Now it is it
was a new estate, a new block offlats. It would probably be
there already, but the deedswritten in 1970 didn't even
(22:04):
imagine electric cars or water,and it just said, and an owner
who's not allowed to change theoutside of the building us,
yeah, so, so interestingly, thefirst thing is to say, and, and
what's, what's really got theirattention and for the community
Here is, is that a couple ofowners have said, No, we don't
want electric car chargers onthe outside of this building,
(22:27):
and the deeds say we don't.We're not allowed to make
changes to the outside of thebuilding unless we all agree on
it. But the deeds also say thatthe community can make rules of
how they live together, and sowe've gone into the deeds and
gone through paragraph byparagraph and said, Well, you
(22:48):
can do this, and you can dothat, and this is how you work
together to do this. So asissues arise, so how we go into
this discussion as issues arise,then we explain to them what
their deeds see. And the pointof this is, unlike homeowners,
feel other factors deal withthis is we make sure our
(23:08):
homeowners are in charge. Theyknow what's going on, they know
what their responsibilities are,and they know how to make
decisions, and then they makethe decisions. We don't ethical
maintenance doesn't make anydecisions. It's always the
homeowners that make thedecisions. And
Marianne Rutz (23:25):
I think that's a fundamental insight, that we as
the factor, as the propertyfactor, we can only do what you
ask us to do. It's actuallypretty straightforward anything
that we as factor, factors arenot asked to do. We cannot just
do, or if we do, we have nohandle to issue a bill or
(23:50):
literally, we don't have a legala legal leg to stand on, haven't
we? If we were just to go aheadand do things and then charge
homeowners for it without prioragreement or at least a
framework to obtain thatagreement. Yeah, that's
basically it. So, yeah, wediscussed that a couple of
times. My listeners know you'remy husband. They also know that
(24:14):
I have worked in the in thecustomer experience space for
many, many, many years, and whenI joined ethical maintenance,
for me, it was very clear, I'mnot joining for the factoring,
end of saying I'm joining forthe homeowner experience side of
things, for what we loosely callCX. And therefore I probably,
(24:37):
when I first started, went in alittle bit. No. Light. And
thought, Oh, well, I can, I cantake this thing and turn it
around. It's not quite thatsimple. But what we have done,
or what we are doing in ethicalmaintenance, very, very clearly,
is holding this communication toour homeowners really high,
(24:57):
whether or not they like toengage. And that's their
prerogative, but we engage andwe change the number of things,
how we how we deal with ourhomeowners. We issue
newsletters, for example, weissue quarterly, monthly,
whatever update is needed to thehomeowners. We meet with them.
You brought me in, and I'm surethere wasn't an easy decision,
(25:20):
although you always said youwanted me in the business, but
sometimes, surely you think, Oh,my God, she drives me, Matt,
would that be a fair assessment?
Kevin Wilkinson (25:29):
Absolutely not. We've both got different
approaches to there's two issuesand and that what makes a good,
a strong, a stronger team. Wedon't always agree and totally
comfortable not agreeing. Butthen when we don't agree, we've
just got to find a way forward.
Marianne Rutz (25:49):
I think it goes with that. Say we agree to
disagree, and then we just needto, we need to find, we really
need to find the way forward.And I think here is where our
leadership colors, if you wantto go quickly into that, not in
much detail. So for ourlisteners, we did have a team
day in August where we in depth,looked at how we lead, what type
(26:11):
of color, if you, if you know,if you're familiar with the
color coded leadership or thecolor coded behaviors, if not,
you can go and get the bookthat's called surrounded by
idiots, by Thomas Ericsson. Youcan read it all in there. Long
story short, I am a very clearRed Leader, which means I am
very focused on processes. I'mvery focused on procedures. But
(26:36):
Kevin, you are red and green,right? If I remember correctly,
yeah. And how does that show?
Kevin Wilkinson (26:42):
So I've done loads of these psychometric
things, from Myers Briggs to theThomas International to Colby to
to whatever. But fundamentally,in what we've got four corners
blue is the steady person thatlikes to follow procedures and
(27:05):
doesn't like change a lot. Greenis the team worker who brings
everything together. Yellow isthe artistic, quick start, sort
of person who would be good insales and marketing and red is
the process driven. But if youdon't follow the process, then L
(27:26):
mend you. So most of the time,I'm green, which means I'm I'm
supportive and and there'sthings like, there's no such
thing as a bad question, just apoor teacher. So if you haven't
been taught how to do something,then it's great asking, and I'll
show you how to do it. However,on the third time of asking
(27:49):
exactly the same question, Iflipped from Green, supportive
to red, process and dominant.And say, this has been shown to
you three times already. Ifyou're asking a different
question, I'll flip back togreen. But if you're asking the
same question again, then it'sno longer the poor teacher, it's
(28:12):
the poor student, and you needto pull your socks up and and
people know that I can make thatexplicitly clear, and that's how
my leadership style works. And
Marianne Rutz (28:24):
so far, I think we, we all know that we are
watched by our teams, probablymore so than you know the team
members watch each other. Wehave already established most of
them are blue. That doesn't makeit extra exactly the most,
easiest combination peoplewaiting to be guided. Where, in
(28:45):
a growing business, you needpeople that take the lead, and
they just, they drive, and theyjust do things. Hence, when I
came in, for me, it's alwaysvery it's very clear you have to
inform people. You have toeducate people, and you empower
them. Talk a little bit to ourlisteners, how we do this. I
don't know. You will say thatthese are not your words. They
(29:05):
are my words, and they are Iaccept that. So information,
education and empowerment. Howdoes this show now in ethical
maintenance?
Kevin Wilkinson (29:15):
So that's fundamentally how we work with
the homeowners. Very clearly,most of them don't understand
the responsibilities they tookon when they bought the
property, and so we we help themand show them where it is in
their deeds. And if they don'thave a copy of the deeds, show
how to get a copy of the deeds,and we provide the information.
(29:39):
And then once they've got theinformation, then we educate
them on using it. So to do thisjob, it me. What it says in the
deeds is this. So this is howyou need to approach it. You
can't just say, I would like thestairs painted green this week.
You have to work with everybodyelse and and so we educate them.
And. Then on the empowerment, weactually hold meetings and
(30:03):
invite all the homeowners tocome to it and what we see. But
you can run your own meetings,and we'll support you and and in
some properties, they do, that'swhen they get the best service,
because they're all workingtogether, they're empowered to
do stuff and, you know, and ifthey're not running their own
(30:23):
stuff, and they want to come tomeetings, so come to discussions
on on what they want with us,then we say, well, and the way
you're going to get your resultis by talking to your neighbors
before you come to the meeting,and work through the issues and
how the votes going to run. Soyou are all empowered to make a
(30:44):
decision at the meeting. Andreally that's that's the way it
goes.
Marianne Rutz (30:48):
And I would say the same applies to our team
members. We know that theythere's a lot to know in our
industry, so we offer them theopportunity to inform themselves
about what does the property theProperty Act in Scotland
actually say, what, whattribunal have been held? They
(31:08):
cannot. They can read up on thatwe we put them to education. You
are probably the one that doesthat much more when it comes to
the subject matter than I do,because, you know, inside out
and then it makes you go andjust do it, because, you know,
we do things based on what weknow and the best foot forward.
(31:30):
Yes, sometimes it might not goright, but chances are 80% of
the time it is, it is right andit is, it is good, from what,
what do you now see? How, howthe firm has grown? How do you
make sure that this ethos staysalive, that you are not falling
(31:52):
into the same scheme of propertyfactoring that you absolutely
never wanted to fall into in thefirst place. Basically
Kevin Wilkinson (32:02):
the procedures in the company, where we didn't
want to be is we don't want tobe doing work that has not been
instructed and that thecommunity don't want to pay for.
And basically all the proceduresare in place. Have the
homeowners actually voted forthis and have they actually paid
(32:22):
for it? That's the essence ofit. So with those it can't
actually, with ethicalmaintenance, it can't actually
run any differently, becausethat's how all the work and all
the jobs are set up. Ifsomebody, if one of the team,
went off and instructed work,then that hadn't been voted for
by the homeowners. You know,they know they're in full breach
(32:44):
of the procedures. Yeah,
Marianne Rutz (32:46):
so procedures really then form the background,
as we said earlier, based on thetitle deeds, the procedures kick
in, and based on what thehomeowners vote wanted in the
various meetings, we act upontheir vote whether or not we
they wanted a and by when theywanted and how. So it's it's
really again, it comes into thecommunity, and it comes into
(33:09):
communication, and it comes intomaking sure that we all know
what has been said at any onetime on behalf of the whole
owner
Kevin Wilkinson (33:21):
that be fair? Yeah, no, that's the way it is,
yeah.
Marianne Rutz (33:25):
So from that on, I can imagine that probably one
or the other listener nowthinks, hmm, I have a factor. I
don't know. I don't knowanything about it, or I don't
know anything about factoring.And I want to know more. I would
quite like to talk to ethicalmaintenance. Where do they go?
Kevin, go
Kevin Wilkinson (33:43):
to the website, www, dot ethical
maintenance.org, that's O, R, G,and you'll get all the contact
details. And just phone up andsay, I listen to that podcast.
I'd like to know more. And we'llget back to you. Brilliant.
Marianne Rutz (33:57):
So all our listeners, we will put that link
into the show notes. If you wantto get in contact, fill in the
contact form, or better, ringus. Give us a call. Say who you
are, refer to the podcast, andeither Kevin myself or one from
our team will get back to you.Kevin. Thank you very much for
(34:21):
being my guest. It was anabsolute pleasure and our
listeners, I hope you enjoyedthis. I hope it gave you a bit
of an insight of what we do andhow we are positively different,
as in, factoring than ourcompetitors are. Thank you very
much. Bye, bye. Before we wrapthis episode up, I would like to
(34:45):
tell you about my mastermind theuser lounge. This is a small by
invitation only room for eightto 10 executives in the property
maintenance management industryor related services. So for
example, accountants dealingwith property management
trainers. Human Resources, etc.It's a place for an honest,
(35:09):
elevated conversation aroundwhat's going on, where we
struggle with and how we cansupport each other better. I
only open this forum once ortwice a year, so if you would
like to be considered for it,please do let me know either via
instant message on LinkedIn, myLinkedIn profile or via email,
(35:33):
that's Marianne at theleaderslounge.co.uk, and please
put the leaders lounge into thesubject line. Please leave us a
review on your chosen podcastingpath platform. It really helps,
because it helps to get theworld out to leaders who want to
make a difference in theirindustry. I will be very, very
(35:57):
grateful. Thank you very muchfor that. And last but not
least, let me tell you, thispodcast is teamwork. I couldn't
do it on my own. A big shout outto my audio technician and
technology. With technology,technology, visit Mike Roberts.
He is the owner of makingdigital real, an awesome support
(36:20):
to have. Thank you so much,Mike. If you want to find out
what we are up to, head over toethical maintenance.org where
you can find us and until nexttime bye, bye,
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