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In this conversation, we welcome back Erik Holland, Aftersales Engineer with Advansor to dive into his unique journey from electrician to refrigeration expert. Eric has some great insights on understanding complex systems from his work traveling the world doing startups and teaching techs how to start their systems up and best utilize them. We also discuss computerized control systems, working with CO2 refrigeration, and drop tons of practical advice for refrigeration technicians looking to advance their careers.
In this episode, we discuss:
-From electrician to refrigeration expert
-Learning in the Field
-Understanding complex refrigeration systems
-Training and knowledge sharing
-Resourcefulness in remote locations
-Troubleshooting tips
-CO2 heat recovery and environmental considerations
-Safety measures in refrigerant handling
-Importance of proper training and equipment
-Embracing advanced refrigeration systems and technology
-Investing in training early in your career
Helpful Links & Resources:
Episode 265. CO2 Experts Live: Startup & Commissioning a CO2 Heat Pump with Erik Holland
Erik on LinkedIn
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Trevor (00:00):
Welcome to the Refrigeration Mentor Podcast. Super excited you're here listening in, always taking the time to join us. It means a lot to us and we're bringing top guests from around the world. Top technicians, field provider, service expert, technical experts, and this is what I love learning with.
(00:01):
That was a really good one. So check that one out. But now we're gonna just dive into some technical questions. We're gonna learn a little bit about his journey because I think this is really important because all of us are on a journey here in refrigeration. Doesn't matter what part of the world you're listening to this from, and we're always trying to learn a little bit, grow a little bit, and help each other out.
Erik (00:02):
I, I wasn't even in the industry. I was started out as a, an electrician. So, so after high school, I, I started on my electrician training.
So, yeah, it was a long, it was a long way just by schooling. But then finally on the other side, I, I, I came out and, and had to find my first, , real job and by, by accident I ended up at the Johnson Controls.
So I was there but a great, great team that was, that was really a great team. It, and I don't know why I, I have tendencies to, to, to drop in with, with, , with. People of a certain kind, , the team makes up a team made up of, , really, really highly qualified people who work very much independently, but as a team.
And yeah. And then yeah, and also did a lot of , , provision cooling systems. We had this standup platform we kept on development, developing on and making more and more user friendly and efficient this was all on. Ammonia systems and, and four fours, 1, 1 32 A. So you, yeah, little bit of the natural stuff, but also some of the nastier stuff.
People that come into my trainings and I find they, if you have that hands-on experience, , if it's electrical or if it's PLC or if it's hvac, you already got some of the, some of the bases. And when they come into supermarket or CO2, a lot of stuff makes a lot of sense, a lot quicker than if you're just starting out brand new.
Trevor (00:07):
How did you, 'cause I, I really like what you said. You're looking at the drawings, you see the compressors, you see all the components on the, the, the piping schematic or the PNID or whatever it is you're looking at it.
And and then when you started wondering, oh, what why is it, why is it doing this? When I, when I change the pressure and the temperature and this mysteriously superheat. What is, what is this super heat value? What, what, how, how, how do you measure it? Where, where did that come from? And of course, it's not a one man job.
How is it working? But, but get it, get it integrated. And, and checking if it's actually working as, as described, that that is a challenge. And that's where you. Really get to learn about the system, even if you don't have the system, but just have a simulation of it.
Erik (00:10):
Yeah. There's clearly a difference between people who. They, they know refrigeration, of course, because otherwise it wouldn't be in the business. Yep. But they may be new to these complex, more complex system as, as only a system. So CO2 systems are but they have a, they have a good knowledge about how compressor works and how evaporators works and everything.
Yep. I usually say my, my, my, my, my, my most important job is just to, just to stand still with my hands in my pocket, because. My job is to teach the guys on the floor how to, how to start their system up, how to use their system. So I, I'm not to do that work because they learn learn by experience. Yeah.
Here are the oil separators and the gas coolers and whatever you have components on, on the system. And pointing the out on the actual rack so everybody knows what we are talking about. If you have any questions, we answer questions and get a good understanding of, of how the system's working. And then Yeah.
So when we're doing a video chat and they're at rack and we're, they're walking through the rack, I think it's so important to have What rate, what you said there, the PP and IPID or the piping schematic with them walking through it step by step. Like this is something I train, that I train people to train other people.
Yeah. Over the time easy. It's, it's still new stuff, right? There's still maybe we Of course, yeah. 90% of everything is the same. You got, you got, you got your compressors, you got your valves, you got your whatever. But there's still new nuances to everything. So now this system have to work in, in, in a specific way.
Trevor (00:15):
I love that. And this is what I talk about my training. When I do a group training with a bunch of technicians from the same company, I'm like, sometimes they're in different states, they're different provinces, they're all over the place.
Erik (00:16):
That's, that's the basic thing we do actually. We, we really push on to, to, to teach both each other and our customers how, how these systems are working and, and all the new self at all time. One of the best things could ever happen on, on a startup, on a commissioning is when I've been introducing the system and, and, and.
Exactly. And it, yeah, to say it doesn't have to be the lead technician. It could be a, it could be an apprentice who just came out of school, but he learned something new in school. The other guys didn't learn. They may be been out of the field for, , 5, 6, 7, 10 years, and they may not have learned these brand new control methods or control equipment.
I'm always curious. I'm trying to ask even newer people, how would you explain this? Even if what I mean? Like how would you explain
Trevor (00:19):
Yeah. Yeah. That's very interesting. I guess I, I guess I should ask you, like, you've been, you've been doing this a long time. You've been working on a lot of different equipment and helping a lot of people. What would be like one or two of like the toughest service calls or what toughest calls that you, you had to figure out?
What can we do? What else, what else do we have around us we can use? And, and, , coming from completely dead system and , just, picking whatever you can find and constructing some something, work around around it and make that work that is, that's not perfect situation. Yeah.
Yeah, no, and I like it when I worked in Northern Northwestern Australia.
Yeah. And have it fixed. Like just, just keep him going. Exactly. That's, that's some of the, the good things about it. And, and when you're out there in the outback as you were, and also on a ship somewhere, you really learn how to, how to work on your own. It, it builds you it builds you as a person, as a, as a technician because there's nobody there to help you.
Suction pipe and liquid line or something. They figure that out at some point and, oh, what do you do now? Right, because we are on a, we are on a time budget here. We have to be, we have to be done by tomorrow evening or something. What do we do now? Either do we, do we just start up what we can isolate the, the, the fault system and, and start up what we can or do.
And now we have to swap pipes. It could be anything, it could be broken valves or whatever. Just to, just to have them think about what could we do and, and, and how to do it is, is a great learning experience. And of course, I, I give them all the inputs I can and we. We can do a lot of magic on, on control systems that is programmable, right?
To come to that conclusion that, okay, we can actually start the system, but we have these points, the outstanding, they're gonna fix it themselves when I leave. Because the most important thing is we check that our system is actually working. And then if they're missing out a, a few evaporators, there's few rooms, anything doesn't really matter because the principles are okay, right?
Erik (00:26):
Of course as much you can save, you try to save as much as possible. So you do your pump downs and everything and you try to move the liquids around or you move the gases around as you can Of course, at some point, yeah.
Not to blow, blow out in, in the machine room, directly in the machine where you, when you are working. So if you have to blow it out, use, use the discharge pipes for, for from the p. The safety valves, basically valves use that line. Normally we have a connection. So, so you just have a flare connector on, on the manifold.
Trevor (00:28):
Yeah. So, so that, that's another question too, is like, well there's lots of people say there's no CO2 recovery units. I, we use four 10, , we recover four 10, we put in a cylinder. Those, those recovery cylinders can work up to five 600 PSI or whatever, 40 or 50 bar. You definitely have to check their rating.
Yeah. And, but of course you, you always have to take chaos of, but when you say you have to evacuate some of the system, how big part of the system do you really have to open up? Like, can I, can I always try to isolate the, the smallest amount of pipe work and vessels?
Your chart here, just make the volume as small as possible. Yeah. Also, so you also, you have a good overview of where do I have a pressurized system and where do I have a non pressurized system? Because cutting a, cutting open a pipe with, with, with, yeah. 1400 PSI that, that, that's gotta hurt the day after I, I guarantee you.
Passing through floors. Maybe, maybe at some point for construction reasons, they have swapped the liquid line and the suction line. And if you have pressure on your liquid line or you're working on your suction line and you cut what you think is the suction line and you just cut open the liquid line, then you have big trouble here, so, so always, always be safe. Yeah.
Yeah. That league is controllable. It's not, it is not gonna be exploding in your face. Anything. It's affordable. So Okay. Then, , okay, there's liquid here or there was pressure here. Okay. I have to wait until it bleeds off and then repaired. Yeah. And, and figure out what, what I did wrong here.
Make sure you, you are, you're at zero level and, and then you can, then you can, then you can touch it and always log out your breakers. Not just, not just switching him off, because some other guy could come by and say, oh, why did that switch off? And then then you're with two faces in your hand and then, and yeah, and then it's over.
To do your work proper. Yeah. So you don't have to go buy the lock yourself, you get it supplied because it's a part of your safety instructions in the work zone. So so always use that especially if you're working a place where there are the people and maybe the, the main switchboard is, is also supplying other equipment because that could be that you, you switch up the, the main breaker and the this.
Yeah. So one of the things that I get a lot of questions in my training programs. So Trevor, these, these systems are, are getting more advanced and, , there's a lot more VFDs or drives on the systems. What are your thoughts and how do you help I guess technicians overcome the fear or overwhelm of all these new electronics, like drives on compressors, for example?
That's, that's probably today is probably, that is the easy part, knowing how the compressor's working, how the expensing valves, valves are working. But the control system on, on, on these kind of systems here are, are getting more and more complex and they can have more and more functions. So, so getting comfortable with how all these different functions are, are working and, and learning how they're working and, and for us to teach people how they're, they're working, how to use them, how we set 'em up, then then they're much more comfortable in, in, in, in using them.
The company shouldn't have to, you should have your own computer to be able to log into all the different equipment, keep all your documents, your data on there. It makes your life so much easier. And this is the difference I see between. Commissioning technicians who have to do the commissioning, so they need to get a computer or have a computer versus service technicians.
How it's working, how to configure it. You can do a lot of things from, from the small displays on them. They're mainly just for your basic data output, so you can monitor the system, but to get deep into the system, you really need you really into your laptop. And today, the laptop is just a tool.
You don't need a gaming laptop to work on these controllers and No,
Even here in North America. There's thousands of 'em now. Versus like when I first started learning CO2, like 10 years ago, 11 years ago, there was a few hundred. What I mean? And now there's thousands of them. So it's gonna continue con, continue to evolve. This has been real good. This has been real good.
You can take a a, a shortcut class. So you can just have a, , an overlay on your, on your training. It takes about, , half a year or something. And then you, then you're, you're good to go and then you go with your colleagues and, and learn all the practical stuff. But you've got all the theories and all the methods and all the, , paperwork done on the trade school, and then you go back to your company and, and work in the field and, and get the, your experience there.
But you need, just need the finest things. , you need all the background, how the haylock p P diagrams work and all that stuff. And, and all the deep theories and, and that, that part of it, I, I, I probably missed out a bit, but yeah, you catch up. Of course, but it could have been the a faster way.
What I mean? To prove that I went to do it. And that's showing responsibility and accountability to your, your employer. And I've done it before, or as well as like, if it's a big ticket purchase, like you gotta, it's tens of thousands of dollars. I've, I've signed contracts with my employers where I would stay on for a couple extra years, or I would have to pay that money back.
Of course, it's nice to be in a safe environment of your company you've been working for, for a long time, but it could be at some point that company really can't help you on your career anymore. Yeah. But that's, they are, they're max level now you have to go over here. Yeah. But then you have to go find another place or go back to school.
And then maybe it's, that's when you have to make a move and there's nothing wrong with that. But investing in yourself is so important. And then even if they do say no, say that it's not. Not in the budget right now, come up with a different solution. If you come up with a plan as a technician, that's different than just telling them what they should be doing as a company.
Erik (00:46):
I figure some, some, some, some employers may be a little bit scared about or people may be leaving after, after they get this new training and everything. And, and I, a guy I spoke with one, one of my old colleagues his old boss always said, oh, that's no problem for my people to leave because they can only come back wiser.
We're trying to help our business out. We're trying to help our friends and family out, and we're trying to help the, , what we do in refrigeration help, help the whole society out. I love it. Eric, any final thoughts for all the listeners out there?
Trevor (00:48):
No, I, I like that. I think that's a big thing is anyone in my community that I'm talking with or any, anybody in my program is like, you gotta create that journey. 'cause you don't know what that journey is at this point. You might be doing it five or six years, but do you want to become a startup technician?
And if you're listening to this, don't share this with someone. If you, if you took anything away, put it in the comments. I. Into either Apple or Spotify. Let us know what you, what you thought, because getting out there investing in yourself, learning a little bit, growing a little bit is going to get you to the next level in your career.
Welcome to the Refrigeration Mentor Podcast. Super excited you're here listening in, always taking the time to join us. It means a lot to us and we're bringing top guests from around the world. Top technicians, field provider, service expert, technical experts, and this is what I love learning with.
(00:01):
That was a really good one. So check that one out. But now we're gonna just dive into some technical questions. We're gonna learn a little bit about his journey because I think this is really important because all of us are on a journey here in refrigeration. Doesn't matter what part of the world you're listening to this from, and we're always trying to learn a little bit, grow a little bit, and help each other out.
Erik (00:02):
I, I wasn't even in the industry. I was started out as a, an electrician. So, so after high school, I, I started on my electrician training.
So, yeah, it was a long, it was a long way just by schooling. But then finally on the other side, I, I, I came out and, and had to find my first, , real job and by, by accident I ended up at the Johnson Controls.
So I was there but a great, great team that was, that was really a great team. It, and I don't know why I, I have tendencies to, to, to drop in with, with, , with. People of a certain kind, , the team makes up a team made up of, , really, really highly qualified people who work very much independently, but as a team.
And yeah. And then yeah, and also did a lot of , , provision cooling systems. We had this standup platform we kept on development, developing on and making more and more user friendly and efficient this was all on. Ammonia systems and, and four fours, 1, 1 32 A. So you, yeah, little bit of the natural stuff, but also some of the nastier stuff.
People that come into my trainings and I find they, if you have that hands-on experience, , if it's electrical or if it's PLC or if it's hvac, you already got some of the, some of the bases. And when they come into supermarket or CO2, a lot of stuff makes a lot of sense, a lot quicker than if you're just starting out brand new.
Trevor (00:07):
How did you, 'cause I, I really like what you said. You're looking at the drawings, you see the compressors, you see all the components on the, the, the piping schematic or the PNID or whatever it is you're looking at it.
And and then when you started wondering, oh, what why is it, why is it doing this? When I, when I change the pressure and the temperature and this mysteriously superheat. What is, what is this super heat value? What, what, how, how, how do you measure it? Where, where did that come from? And of course, it's not a one man job.
How is it working? But, but get it, get it integrated. And, and checking if it's actually working as, as described, that that is a challenge. And that's where you. Really get to learn about the system, even if you don't have the system, but just have a simulation of it.
Erik (00:10):
Yeah. There's clearly a difference between people who. They, they know refrigeration, of course, because otherwise it wouldn't be in the business. Yep. But they may be new to these complex, more complex system as, as only a system. So CO2 systems are but they have a, they have a good knowledge about how compressor works and how evaporators works and everything.
Yep. I usually say my, my, my, my, my, my most important job is just to, just to stand still with my hands in my pocket, because. My job is to teach the guys on the floor how to, how to start their system up, how to use their system. So I, I'm not to do that work because they learn learn by experience. Yeah.
Here are the oil separators and the gas coolers and whatever you have components on, on the system. And pointing the out on the actual rack so everybody knows what we are talking about. If you have any questions, we answer questions and get a good understanding of, of how the system's working. And then Yeah.
So when we're doing a video chat and they're at rack and we're, they're walking through the rack, I think it's so important to have What rate, what you said there, the PP and IPID or the piping schematic with them walking through it step by step. Like this is something I train, that I train people to train other people.
Yeah. Over the time easy. It's, it's still new stuff, right? There's still maybe we Of course, yeah. 90% of everything is the same. You got, you got, you got your compressors, you got your valves, you got your whatever. But there's still new nuances to everything. So now this system have to work in, in, in a specific way.
Trevor (00:15):
I love that. And this is what I talk about my training. When I do a group training with a bunch of technicians from the same company, I'm like, sometimes they're in different states, they're different provinces, they're all over the place.
Erik (00:16):
That's, that's the basic thing we do actually. We, we really push on to, to, to teach both each other and our customers how, how these systems are working and, and all the new self at all time. One of the best things could ever happen on, on a startup, on a commissioning is when I've been introducing the system and, and, and.
Exactly. And it, yeah, to say it doesn't have to be the lead technician. It could be a, it could be an apprentice who just came out of school, but he learned something new in school. The other guys didn't learn. They may be been out of the field for, , 5, 6, 7, 10 years, and they may not have learned these brand new control methods or control equipment.
I'm always curious. I'm trying to ask even newer people, how would you explain this? Even if what I mean? Like how would you explain
Trevor (00:19):
Yeah. Yeah. That's very interesting. I guess I, I guess I should ask you, like, you've been, you've been doing this a long time. You've been working on a lot of different equipment and helping a lot of people. What would be like one or two of like the toughest service calls or what toughest calls that you, you had to figure out?
What can we do? What else, what else do we have around us we can use? And, and, , coming from completely dead system and , just, picking whatever you can find and constructing some something, work around around it and make that work that is, that's not perfect situation. Yeah.
Yeah, no, and I like it when I worked in Northern Northwestern Australia.
Yeah. And have it fixed. Like just, just keep him going. Exactly. That's, that's some of the, the good things about it. And, and when you're out there in the outback as you were, and also on a ship somewhere, you really learn how to, how to work on your own. It, it builds you it builds you as a person, as a, as a technician because there's nobody there to help you.
Suction pipe and liquid line or something. They figure that out at some point and, oh, what do you do now? Right, because we are on a, we are on a time budget here. We have to be, we have to be done by tomorrow evening or something. What do we do now? Either do we, do we just start up what we can isolate the, the, the fault system and, and start up what we can or do.
And now we have to swap pipes. It could be anything, it could be broken valves or whatever. Just to, just to have them think about what could we do and, and, and how to do it is, is a great learning experience. And of course, I, I give them all the inputs I can and we. We can do a lot of magic on, on control systems that is programmable, right?
To come to that conclusion that, okay, we can actually start the system, but we have these points, the outstanding, they're gonna fix it themselves when I leave. Because the most important thing is we check that our system is actually working. And then if they're missing out a, a few evaporators, there's few rooms, anything doesn't really matter because the principles are okay, right?
Erik (00:26):
Of course as much you can save, you try to save as much as possible. So you do your pump downs and everything and you try to move the liquids around or you move the gases around as you can Of course, at some point, yeah.
Not to blow, blow out in, in the machine room, directly in the machine where you, when you are working. So if you have to blow it out, use, use the discharge pipes for, for from the p. The safety valves, basically valves use that line. Normally we have a connection. So, so you just have a flare connector on, on the manifold.
Trevor (00:28):
Yeah. So, so that, that's another question too, is like, well there's lots of people say there's no CO2 recovery units. I, we use four 10, , we recover four 10, we put in a cylinder. Those, those recovery cylinders can work up to five 600 PSI or whatever, 40 or 50 bar. You definitely have to check their rating.
Yeah. And, but of course you, you always have to take chaos of, but when you say you have to evacuate some of the system, how big part of the system do you really have to open up? Like, can I, can I always try to isolate the, the smallest amount of pipe work and vessels?
Your chart here, just make the volume as small as possible. Yeah. Also, so you also, you have a good overview of where do I have a pressurized system and where do I have a non pressurized system? Because cutting a, cutting open a pipe with, with, with, yeah. 1400 PSI that, that, that's gotta hurt the day after I, I guarantee you.
Passing through floors. Maybe, maybe at some point for construction reasons, they have swapped the liquid line and the suction line. And if you have pressure on your liquid line or you're working on your suction line and you cut what you think is the suction line and you just cut open the liquid line, then you have big trouble here, so, so always, always be safe. Yeah.
Yeah. That league is controllable. It's not, it is not gonna be exploding in your face. Anything. It's affordable. So Okay. Then, , okay, there's liquid here or there was pressure here. Okay. I have to wait until it bleeds off and then repaired. Yeah. And, and figure out what, what I did wrong here.
Make sure you, you are, you're at zero level and, and then you can, then you can, then you can touch it and always log out your breakers. Not just, not just switching him off, because some other guy could come by and say, oh, why did that switch off? And then then you're with two faces in your hand and then, and yeah, and then it's over.
To do your work proper. Yeah. So you don't have to go buy the lock yourself, you get it supplied because it's a part of your safety instructions in the work zone. So so always use that especially if you're working a place where there are the people and maybe the, the main switchboard is, is also supplying other equipment because that could be that you, you switch up the, the main breaker and the this.
Yeah. So one of the things that I get a lot of questions in my training programs. So Trevor, these, these systems are, are getting more advanced and, , there's a lot more VFDs or drives on the systems. What are your thoughts and how do you help I guess technicians overcome the fear or overwhelm of all these new electronics, like drives on compressors, for example?
That's, that's probably today is probably, that is the easy part, knowing how the compressor's working, how the expensing valves, valves are working. But the control system on, on, on these kind of systems here are, are getting more and more complex and they can have more and more functions. So, so getting comfortable with how all these different functions are, are working and, and learning how they're working and, and for us to teach people how they're, they're working, how to use them, how we set 'em up, then then they're much more comfortable in, in, in, in using them.
The company shouldn't have to, you should have your own computer to be able to log into all the different equipment, keep all your documents, your data on there. It makes your life so much easier. And this is the difference I see between. Commissioning technicians who have to do the commissioning, so they need to get a computer or have a computer versus service technicians.
How it's working, how to configure it. You can do a lot of things from, from the small displays on them. They're mainly just for your basic data output, so you can monitor the system, but to get deep into the system, you really need you really into your laptop. And today, the laptop is just a tool.
You don't need a gaming laptop to work on these controllers and No,
Even here in North America. There's thousands of 'em now. Versus like when I first started learning CO2, like 10 years ago, 11 years ago, there was a few hundred. What I mean? And now there's thousands of them. So it's gonna continue con, continue to evolve. This has been real good. This has been real good.
You can take a a, a shortcut class. So you can just have a, , an overlay on your, on your training. It takes about, , half a year or something. And then you, then you're, you're good to go and then you go with your colleagues and, and learn all the practical stuff. But you've got all the theories and all the methods and all the, , paperwork done on the trade school, and then you go back to your company and, and work in the field and, and get the, your experience there.
But you need, just need the finest things. , you need all the background, how the haylock p P diagrams work and all that stuff. And, and all the deep theories and, and that, that part of it, I, I, I probably missed out a bit, but yeah, you catch up. Of course, but it could have been the a faster way.
What I mean? To prove that I went to do it. And that's showing responsibility and accountability to your, your employer. And I've done it before, or as well as like, if it's a big ticket purchase, like you gotta, it's tens of thousands of dollars. I've, I've signed contracts with my employers where I would stay on for a couple extra years, or I would have to pay that money back.
Of course, it's nice to be in a safe environment of your company you've been working for, for a long time, but it could be at some point that company really can't help you on your career anymore. Yeah. But that's, they are, they're max level now you have to go over here. Yeah. But then you have to go find another place or go back to school.
And then maybe it's, that's when you have to make a move and there's nothing wrong with that. But investing in yourself is so important. And then even if they do say no, say that it's not. Not in the budget right now, come up with a different solution. If you come up with a plan as a technician, that's different than just telling them what they should be doing as a company.
Erik (00:46):
I figure some, some, some, some employers may be a little bit scared about or people may be leaving after, after they get this new training and everything. And, and I, a guy I spoke with one, one of my old colleagues his old boss always said, oh, that's no problem for my people to leave because they can only come back wiser.
We're trying to help our business out. We're trying to help our friends and family out, and we're trying to help the, , what we do in refrigeration help, help the whole society out. I love it. Eric, any final thoughts for all the listeners out there?
Trevor (00:48):
No, I, I like that. I think that's a big thing is anyone in my community that I'm talking with or any, anybody in my program is like, you gotta create that journey. 'cause you don't know what that journey is at this point. You might be doing it five or six years, but do you want to become a startup technician?
And if you're listening to this, don't share this with someone. If you, if you took anything away, put it in the comments. I. Into either Apple or Spotify. Let us know what you, what you thought, because getting out there investing in yourself, learning a little bit, growing a little bit is going to get you to the next level in your career.
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