July 21, 2025 • 41 mins
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In this conversation, we sit down with Dylan Mackenzie of Kerr Controls to talk about his intriguing refrigeration journey - from mechanical interests in high school to a varied academic path, before getting into HVAC and refrigeration. Dylan shares his perspective on modern changes in refrigeration technology, such as CO2, hydrocarbons and A2Ls, and also his experience with design and collaborating with contractors. A great example of the value in hearing other’s journeys, particularly for new refrigeration technicians and those contemplating the career.
In this episode, we discuss:
-Getting into the refrigeration industry
-Dylan's journey into refrigeration
-Changes in the refrigeration industry
-Working with contractors and technicians
-Importance of design in refrigeration
-Kerr Controls and team dynamics
Helpful links & resources:
Episode 225. The Industry’s Daily News Source: The Story of The Cooling Post with Neil Everitt
Episode 302. Journey Into Refrigeration with Connor Strickland
Episode 185: Refrigeration is a Journey: Ashley Fuller's Refrigeration Roadmap
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Trevor (00:00):
welcome to the Refrigeration Min podcast. I'm your host Trevor Matthews, and as always, bring in guests from all over the world who love refrigeration.
(00:01):
Oh man. Super excited. You're here too. It's been super hot here where I'm at and I'm assuming you've been getting some good weather down there, so lots of work going on. Summertime is the busiest season for us here in Canada for sure.
Yeah, no. Awesome. So you've been in the industry quite a while. You're with current controls now and really helping build their team.
I went that way, but I was already at that point, torn because I was really interested in the arts in both history and philosophy in particular. So I actually started in mechanical engineering and I had an emergency surgery on my, what was it? The appendix, which got a little bit complicated and I was out for like, what was it, four months or something like this.
I carried that through all the way to doing a master's in philosophy. In between, I did work in the family business, which is custom cabinet making, which is what I grew up in. And ironically, once I was ready after my master's to see what the future held, a wholesaler that is in primarily HVAC and plumbing contacted me and they said, look, you grew up in the trades.
Helping people get money to do much needed retrofits and stuff like this to get efficiency. A little more sustainable. And it was really, I fell into refrigeration from there by the fact that as these building owners got more comfortable with us, and of course we'd be working as a wholesaler at, at that time, basically getting these opportunities either with engineering firms or with the contractors for design builds and, , doing walkthroughs together.
What can you do? And at that time, the wholesaler that I was with also had another division in the country that was focused on refrigeration. So we went back to the drawing board and we said, can we get into refrigeration? Can we learn this? Those other folks were happy to teach. I mean, one thing as you yourself show constantly on, on this show is that ev everyone that's really into refrigeration is passionate about refrigeration and, and will go outta their way to, to teach others.
Really full tilt. I'm, I'm in the trenches on refrigeration for everything from design and sales to technical support and wherever I gotta be, though I would say that in the last half year or more, it's shifted to more equal parts, really. HVAC and refrigeration, both and, and there of course. That's probably just because I'm almost interested in too many things here.
Yeah, no, and that, and that's it. There's it like the journey has just begun too, ? And it's been changing and evolving even though since 2019 there's so many massive changes. What have you seen?
Everyone was really restarting a little bit. I mean, it wasn't a radical change, but I, for being an absolute beginner, I got to get in on the industry wide trainings from HRI and from, , keep Pride and Heatcraft and Ref Boss, all these main manufacturers that are offered these free trainings to the wholesalers and contractors alike.
And , some plants for sure, but once you get into a supermarket, there's a lot more moving parts naturally. So as much as I participated in a lot of training, it really wasn't a part, a big part of my job at the time. I would say that the, that particular big change really, it started then, but I would say that it has kind of continued to now.
There was a man that came up from the southern states, flew up and took them six months to successfully. Troubleshoot that thing. I mean, they had it running, but to really fine tune it and to figure out why this thing seemed to still be needing tuning six months in, and it turned out to be a defrost issue after all, that the, , what I mean?
Some 4, 4 9 ones for that, which I'm surprised over, but that was a big change. I even, , I've come across some contractors who really don't like the hydrocarbons, but that, so I would say that we could use some more training on on that. I know there is training available. There's training that's gone out, but.
There's, there's no question you're already seeing it in Europe. The, the most recent, I guess focus changes the A two Ls, which obviously in ac that's a big thing right now. It's a complicated thing. It's even changing how some of the products are going out to market. I would say like in V-R-F-V-R-F kind of took a beating in confidence with the engineer engineering firms because they were very iffy on a two L.
So I did see 4 54 a on one of those projects probably two and a half years ago. And then since then. In the past six months in particular, I'm seeing some of our main Manufac manufacturing partners come out with, , half through six horsepower systems in core refrigeration that are using 44 A or four, four C.
Dylan (00:15):
Yeah, so, so it's interesting their strategy here. 'cause they have that, they have the legacy that's not compatible.
Then you can actually replace it with the, the other side of the A two L system and simply add the leak detection system. And in their case, if they're doing that, they would field mount, this is another new one to me, where they will then field mount two outside. Let's say it was a. A system that was for a, , a small walk-in cooler box or walk-in freezer box where they will, on the suction side, they will add an additional check valve immediately outside the box and they'll add an additional solenoid valve right before the box to essentially isolate that room when the leak detection system goes off.
Trevor (00:17):
Yeah, it's definitely complicated right now in that, especially for the technicians and the contractors on what needs to be done because it's still, there is still no exact, there is stuff in the codes, but it's not. Laid out very easily for anyone.
Dylan (00:18):
exactly the c2, it'll be R two 90. And honestly, I'm seeing. I don't know if you follow Coolant Post is a great online free journal, mainly based outta the uk, but it's got all, it's got all these up to date sort of developments on the refrigerant development front.
And I feel for all different groups, what I mean? They're all struggling. It's a, because I hear people saying. Blame and manufacture for this, but they're just trying to figure it out because they have to figure it out. With these regulators who are putting in some regulations that sometimes makes sense, sometimes don't make sense 'cause they're not involved in industry, they don't know what it's all about and how difficult some things are.
And I would try to space it that, say if I did one that. One day was really slapping panels together that the next day it was getting out there with folks brazen and the next day maybe hanging stuff, not days in a row, but next job. I mean that went like that. And, and trying to see different aspects and, , wasn't necessarily always tied to having to win a job, but the customer, sometimes I'd be on jobs that I wasn't involved in, but just to see interesting stuff.
And I, I see it all the time, contractors that compete with each other and as companies. Or maybe even too aggressively keep competing with each other, but in the trenches, their techs are talking to each other and helping them out of a jam. Right on, oh, no, you can't do that with, with this refrigerant, but here's who you gotta talk to.
So over the years, these different people are helping you connect them. And I would say that that's been probably the most fun thing. Like, and obviously refrigeration, just like hvac, just like most things is constant learning, right? Lifelong learning. Some of these topics are. You wanna learn, like let's say when I star at it and , the very first thing was just getting familiar with the nomenclature of the equipment and the different types of items there are, but you say you take like a con contactor or a type of relay or whatever, and you get mildly familiar with that enough to be able to, , in my position, sell it or source it.
It's filling in these gaps in the knowledge from before and connecting a doc that you were kinda had hanging for maybe four or five years, and you're like, you're like, I appreciate that so much. I, , I wonder about this old compressor failure that really was never fully resolved. Was this part to what was going on there that might fit, , so I would say that the constant learning.
Vein on that front is when, when I got into refrigeration and there's these great guys like Ryan Metz up in Ontario that, , really taught me a lot about refrigeration selection for the equipment side. And there was other guys like Willem Painter that taught me a lot on the, on the parts side at the time even.
Would you be willing to work with us? And, and we had a great chat. And one thing he said, he said, look, I'm gonna tell you a big secret here. He said, we're all just selling. Boxes of fans, but I'm gonna teach you how to design, sell, and support refrigeration commercial product. And I promise you this, it's gonna be the funnest career that you're gonna have.
Trevor (00:26):
And that that's it's so true. Continue to learn every day. Like today, I learned something when we were doing the 12 week design course. We're in the piping section, the course at Utah, and I'm just learning on the pressure drops and, and you're each terminal and the load and making sure that that one has enough , a velocity to make sure you don't need a double riser or if you do need a double riser and when you do it, what I mean?
What, what intrigues you about the design and working with the contractors and different manufacturers, because that's a, an important job in refrigeration because you're like the, that middleman, right? Because you have manufacturers, you have that contractor, you have the design firm, and you're trying to make all the pieces come together.
So what they're coming to you for is really reassurance that their interpretation of the products that you can offer them can do what they're hoping there. When they really kind of did the design primarily, right? Yeah. Where, whereas in some other cases you might have a. Especially at the manufacturers you might have, whether it's an electrical or industrial or mechanical engineer working for them or someone that's not necessarily an engineer, but an engineering type engineering practice where , they're really good at either that particular product line or just in general.
But , there's been tons of instances where really the manufacturer's given me the training. The engineer and the CO and or the contractors gimme the opportunity and I or or others on our team are really the ones doing a lot of the heavy lifting on design or at least getting something. In front of those guys that then you have a process that's really a, a two-way street and, and from there, kind of, whether it's making changes or completely scrapping and going a different direction.
I haven't used it on a ton of projects, but for us, really even, even when we are in really any of those three design sort of paths. We're still responsible to a certain amount to support the contractors on piping design, really? Or, or either the others. I mean, some, in some cases a manufacturer will give a, , a pipe design and bill of material, but not always, of course.
It'll show you multiple, like how the velocity of the pressure drop would work for different options as opposed to, , redoing that calculation completely from scratch. So that was a big step up with that, and I was familiar with that. I used to use it as more just to check my work with the contractors, or sometimes they would, same with the Tecums one, but what I found with micro pipe now for systems where I have a few evaporators or if it's an industrial system.
No problem, man. It's, but it, it's so interesting. There's so many verticals in refrigeration that anyone can take.
And even I had, I was, it was Zach from Za and Carrie from Copeland here a couple months ago. And they were actually not even really talking to me. They were talking to a couple other people at our table, but they could see I had a after hours request for a semi and on an old Hussman. And, and they could, they saw the COPA mobile app on my screen and my phone, so, , obviously then they had to inquire, what are you working on?
Who's great guy, Gord, he's really our head of logistics for the company, but he would do any of our new construction for internal buildings or retrofits. And Gord pointed out to me once he's like the value of what he calls lunchbox sessions, where you're, you're either just working side by side I with someone while, , doing your lunch or you're out for lunch with a contractor like the, you can't even calculate the benefit.
That's what refrigeration is. It's always exciting to to hear different aspects, and I would love to find out where people can learn more about you, learn more about your organization if they ever want to get in touch, because I know this is something that you, that you're passionate about. You're passionate about helping people.
So we have a group email for that so customers can reach out directly to that if they have, , things that are. Really, especially tricky that their usual lines of support with us aren't able to get. And honestly, that's a big internal resource for us where our teammates are coming to that for like, oh, this came up with a customer.
It's not just coming to one person and possibly falling between the cracks. It's coming to all of us and we're able to really maintain that level of service, which again, is the same principle with the Go Blue email where we're able to actually. Ensure that true refrigeration emergencies are getting taken care of as quickly as possible.
That kind of gives a sense of the markets that we're in, the manufacturers that we're partnered with, and. At the end of the day, it's really interesting with, with Kerr, with how we've started. So Kerr's founder David Kerr Wilson started this company out of a milk truck in 1949, selling thermostats in, in the big, , heating revolution in those days away from coal.
And Halifax and Dartmouth both. We also have branches up in Ontario there in London, Sudbury and Owen Sam. So honestly, we're a company that is focused on Canada East, and I think a lot of people really can connect with the family run, family owned business. Model. Right. We're from Atlanta, Canada, you and I, you and I both, it's a, it's a success story and, and Kerr is all about fun relationships and learning and yeah, having success together with our customers, but also the end users even because we're trying to, , as, as I think you've gathered with me from the past, we're trying to support our.
Projects, not just when they go in with the contractor in terms of procurement, logistics, commissioning, but how is that equipment running over time? Can we tune that? Can we support you on that? Can we make sure, like for us, for example, we have critical parts list for our company for supermarket, industrial, whatever sort of important refrigeration and heating needs there are that, , there could be.
Like I was shocked. I mean, coming to Kerr and what I've got to learn with some of the folks here since coming, people that have honestly been in it 40 years, like. We've got Henry up there in Cornerbrook, we've got Don in, we've got Heath ett, and Mark Moser and Halifax, and. Dartmouth and I hope you get to meet these guys at some point and Well, I
welcome to the Refrigeration Min podcast. I'm your host Trevor Matthews, and as always, bring in guests from all over the world who love refrigeration.
(00:01):
Oh man. Super excited. You're here too. It's been super hot here where I'm at and I'm assuming you've been getting some good weather down there, so lots of work going on. Summertime is the busiest season for us here in Canada for sure.
Yeah, no. Awesome. So you've been in the industry quite a while. You're with current controls now and really helping build their team.
I went that way, but I was already at that point, torn because I was really interested in the arts in both history and philosophy in particular. So I actually started in mechanical engineering and I had an emergency surgery on my, what was it? The appendix, which got a little bit complicated and I was out for like, what was it, four months or something like this.
I carried that through all the way to doing a master's in philosophy. In between, I did work in the family business, which is custom cabinet making, which is what I grew up in. And ironically, once I was ready after my master's to see what the future held, a wholesaler that is in primarily HVAC and plumbing contacted me and they said, look, you grew up in the trades.
Helping people get money to do much needed retrofits and stuff like this to get efficiency. A little more sustainable. And it was really, I fell into refrigeration from there by the fact that as these building owners got more comfortable with us, and of course we'd be working as a wholesaler at, at that time, basically getting these opportunities either with engineering firms or with the contractors for design builds and, , doing walkthroughs together.
What can you do? And at that time, the wholesaler that I was with also had another division in the country that was focused on refrigeration. So we went back to the drawing board and we said, can we get into refrigeration? Can we learn this? Those other folks were happy to teach. I mean, one thing as you yourself show constantly on, on this show is that ev everyone that's really into refrigeration is passionate about refrigeration and, and will go outta their way to, to teach others.
Really full tilt. I'm, I'm in the trenches on refrigeration for everything from design and sales to technical support and wherever I gotta be, though I would say that in the last half year or more, it's shifted to more equal parts, really. HVAC and refrigeration, both and, and there of course. That's probably just because I'm almost interested in too many things here.
Yeah, no, and that, and that's it. There's it like the journey has just begun too, ? And it's been changing and evolving even though since 2019 there's so many massive changes. What have you seen?
Everyone was really restarting a little bit. I mean, it wasn't a radical change, but I, for being an absolute beginner, I got to get in on the industry wide trainings from HRI and from, , keep Pride and Heatcraft and Ref Boss, all these main manufacturers that are offered these free trainings to the wholesalers and contractors alike.
And , some plants for sure, but once you get into a supermarket, there's a lot more moving parts naturally. So as much as I participated in a lot of training, it really wasn't a part, a big part of my job at the time. I would say that the, that particular big change really, it started then, but I would say that it has kind of continued to now.
There was a man that came up from the southern states, flew up and took them six months to successfully. Troubleshoot that thing. I mean, they had it running, but to really fine tune it and to figure out why this thing seemed to still be needing tuning six months in, and it turned out to be a defrost issue after all, that the, , what I mean?
Some 4, 4 9 ones for that, which I'm surprised over, but that was a big change. I even, , I've come across some contractors who really don't like the hydrocarbons, but that, so I would say that we could use some more training on on that. I know there is training available. There's training that's gone out, but.
There's, there's no question you're already seeing it in Europe. The, the most recent, I guess focus changes the A two Ls, which obviously in ac that's a big thing right now. It's a complicated thing. It's even changing how some of the products are going out to market. I would say like in V-R-F-V-R-F kind of took a beating in confidence with the engineer engineering firms because they were very iffy on a two L.
So I did see 4 54 a on one of those projects probably two and a half years ago. And then since then. In the past six months in particular, I'm seeing some of our main Manufac manufacturing partners come out with, , half through six horsepower systems in core refrigeration that are using 44 A or four, four C.
Dylan (00:15):
Yeah, so, so it's interesting their strategy here. 'cause they have that, they have the legacy that's not compatible.
Then you can actually replace it with the, the other side of the A two L system and simply add the leak detection system. And in their case, if they're doing that, they would field mount, this is another new one to me, where they will then field mount two outside. Let's say it was a. A system that was for a, , a small walk-in cooler box or walk-in freezer box where they will, on the suction side, they will add an additional check valve immediately outside the box and they'll add an additional solenoid valve right before the box to essentially isolate that room when the leak detection system goes off.
Trevor (00:17):
Yeah, it's definitely complicated right now in that, especially for the technicians and the contractors on what needs to be done because it's still, there is still no exact, there is stuff in the codes, but it's not. Laid out very easily for anyone.
Dylan (00:18):
exactly the c2, it'll be R two 90. And honestly, I'm seeing. I don't know if you follow Coolant Post is a great online free journal, mainly based outta the uk, but it's got all, it's got all these up to date sort of developments on the refrigerant development front.
And I feel for all different groups, what I mean? They're all struggling. It's a, because I hear people saying. Blame and manufacture for this, but they're just trying to figure it out because they have to figure it out. With these regulators who are putting in some regulations that sometimes makes sense, sometimes don't make sense 'cause they're not involved in industry, they don't know what it's all about and how difficult some things are.
And I would try to space it that, say if I did one that. One day was really slapping panels together that the next day it was getting out there with folks brazen and the next day maybe hanging stuff, not days in a row, but next job. I mean that went like that. And, and trying to see different aspects and, , wasn't necessarily always tied to having to win a job, but the customer, sometimes I'd be on jobs that I wasn't involved in, but just to see interesting stuff.
And I, I see it all the time, contractors that compete with each other and as companies. Or maybe even too aggressively keep competing with each other, but in the trenches, their techs are talking to each other and helping them out of a jam. Right on, oh, no, you can't do that with, with this refrigerant, but here's who you gotta talk to.
So over the years, these different people are helping you connect them. And I would say that that's been probably the most fun thing. Like, and obviously refrigeration, just like hvac, just like most things is constant learning, right? Lifelong learning. Some of these topics are. You wanna learn, like let's say when I star at it and , the very first thing was just getting familiar with the nomenclature of the equipment and the different types of items there are, but you say you take like a con contactor or a type of relay or whatever, and you get mildly familiar with that enough to be able to, , in my position, sell it or source it.
It's filling in these gaps in the knowledge from before and connecting a doc that you were kinda had hanging for maybe four or five years, and you're like, you're like, I appreciate that so much. I, , I wonder about this old compressor failure that really was never fully resolved. Was this part to what was going on there that might fit, , so I would say that the constant learning.
Vein on that front is when, when I got into refrigeration and there's these great guys like Ryan Metz up in Ontario that, , really taught me a lot about refrigeration selection for the equipment side. And there was other guys like Willem Painter that taught me a lot on the, on the parts side at the time even.
Would you be willing to work with us? And, and we had a great chat. And one thing he said, he said, look, I'm gonna tell you a big secret here. He said, we're all just selling. Boxes of fans, but I'm gonna teach you how to design, sell, and support refrigeration commercial product. And I promise you this, it's gonna be the funnest career that you're gonna have.
Trevor (00:26):
And that that's it's so true. Continue to learn every day. Like today, I learned something when we were doing the 12 week design course. We're in the piping section, the course at Utah, and I'm just learning on the pressure drops and, and you're each terminal and the load and making sure that that one has enough , a velocity to make sure you don't need a double riser or if you do need a double riser and when you do it, what I mean?
What, what intrigues you about the design and working with the contractors and different manufacturers, because that's a, an important job in refrigeration because you're like the, that middleman, right? Because you have manufacturers, you have that contractor, you have the design firm, and you're trying to make all the pieces come together.
So what they're coming to you for is really reassurance that their interpretation of the products that you can offer them can do what they're hoping there. When they really kind of did the design primarily, right? Yeah. Where, whereas in some other cases you might have a. Especially at the manufacturers you might have, whether it's an electrical or industrial or mechanical engineer working for them or someone that's not necessarily an engineer, but an engineering type engineering practice where , they're really good at either that particular product line or just in general.
But , there's been tons of instances where really the manufacturer's given me the training. The engineer and the CO and or the contractors gimme the opportunity and I or or others on our team are really the ones doing a lot of the heavy lifting on design or at least getting something. In front of those guys that then you have a process that's really a, a two-way street and, and from there, kind of, whether it's making changes or completely scrapping and going a different direction.
I haven't used it on a ton of projects, but for us, really even, even when we are in really any of those three design sort of paths. We're still responsible to a certain amount to support the contractors on piping design, really? Or, or either the others. I mean, some, in some cases a manufacturer will give a, , a pipe design and bill of material, but not always, of course.
It'll show you multiple, like how the velocity of the pressure drop would work for different options as opposed to, , redoing that calculation completely from scratch. So that was a big step up with that, and I was familiar with that. I used to use it as more just to check my work with the contractors, or sometimes they would, same with the Tecums one, but what I found with micro pipe now for systems where I have a few evaporators or if it's an industrial system.
No problem, man. It's, but it, it's so interesting. There's so many verticals in refrigeration that anyone can take.
And even I had, I was, it was Zach from Za and Carrie from Copeland here a couple months ago. And they were actually not even really talking to me. They were talking to a couple other people at our table, but they could see I had a after hours request for a semi and on an old Hussman. And, and they could, they saw the COPA mobile app on my screen and my phone, so, , obviously then they had to inquire, what are you working on?
Who's great guy, Gord, he's really our head of logistics for the company, but he would do any of our new construction for internal buildings or retrofits. And Gord pointed out to me once he's like the value of what he calls lunchbox sessions, where you're, you're either just working side by side I with someone while, , doing your lunch or you're out for lunch with a contractor like the, you can't even calculate the benefit.
That's what refrigeration is. It's always exciting to to hear different aspects, and I would love to find out where people can learn more about you, learn more about your organization if they ever want to get in touch, because I know this is something that you, that you're passionate about. You're passionate about helping people.
So we have a group email for that so customers can reach out directly to that if they have, , things that are. Really, especially tricky that their usual lines of support with us aren't able to get. And honestly, that's a big internal resource for us where our teammates are coming to that for like, oh, this came up with a customer.
It's not just coming to one person and possibly falling between the cracks. It's coming to all of us and we're able to really maintain that level of service, which again, is the same principle with the Go Blue email where we're able to actually. Ensure that true refrigeration emergencies are getting taken care of as quickly as possible.
That kind of gives a sense of the markets that we're in, the manufacturers that we're partnered with, and. At the end of the day, it's really interesting with, with Kerr, with how we've started. So Kerr's founder David Kerr Wilson started this company out of a milk truck in 1949, selling thermostats in, in the big, , heating revolution in those days away from coal.
And Halifax and Dartmouth both. We also have branches up in Ontario there in London, Sudbury and Owen Sam. So honestly, we're a company that is focused on Canada East, and I think a lot of people really can connect with the family run, family owned business. Model. Right. We're from Atlanta, Canada, you and I, you and I both, it's a, it's a success story and, and Kerr is all about fun relationships and learning and yeah, having success together with our customers, but also the end users even because we're trying to, , as, as I think you've gathered with me from the past, we're trying to support our.
Projects, not just when they go in with the contractor in terms of procurement, logistics, commissioning, but how is that equipment running over time? Can we tune that? Can we support you on that? Can we make sure, like for us, for example, we have critical parts list for our company for supermarket, industrial, whatever sort of important refrigeration and heating needs there are that, , there could be.
Like I was shocked. I mean, coming to Kerr and what I've got to learn with some of the folks here since coming, people that have honestly been in it 40 years, like. We've got Henry up there in Cornerbrook, we've got Don in, we've got Heath ett, and Mark Moser and Halifax, and. Dartmouth and I hope you get to meet these guys at some point and Well, I
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