Batman, Comic Books, and The Movie Biz | Michael E. Uslan | Reverend and the Reprobate Podcast - The Reverend and the Reprobate

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi guys, Ricky Pope here fromthe Christian Nerds Unite podcast. On the
show, we dive deep into ournerdy fandoms and look at them through the
lens of our faith by chatting withChristian content creators and experts who love comics,
science, video games, media,sci fi and fantasy, discovering how
their faith shapes their creative work andtheir lives. You can listen on your

(00:23):
favorite podcast app or find links toeverything at Christian Unite dot com. File
hosts of Fortune Kyle Man, thisis days basiness to Kerry Pomeroli, This
is Mike Writer, this is eventhe Cold, This is Lam Wargan is
Graham Parker, the fifth GP,And this is why you should never ever,
never, never never. How Igot suckered in. I'm so embarrassed

(00:46):
about here. You're wasting your time. You got better things to do.
Never listen those darlin yummy. Reverendand the ramper By. Hey, welcome
to the Reverend and the Reverbay toshow about two best buds interviewing people they
have no business talking to. Myname is Lucas Pickert, I'm an actual
reverend and here with me as alwaysis the birthday fanboy himself. Is dan
Phip Gibson. What's going on?Man, not a lot to this time?

(01:10):
And Sam's birthday cake, I willbe eating beef jerky. Yeah.
Is the lovely Missus Gibson making youa beef jerky cake? Yeah? Is
she? No, she's gonna spellyour name out. And Jerry ay,
but it's jerky. Didn't give mesome wonderful beat jerky. And I might
be trying your dehydrator here pretty soon. Oh yeah, yeah. If if

(01:30):
you ever come to the house andget in yep, because baby Leaves don't
even know who you are. Iforgot what dude. Well, hey,
today on the show, and wedon't want to be labor this. We
have a longer interview, but withone of the most amazing people. Yeah,
we we've ever gotten to talk to. It is Batman. It's it's
Michael Euslin, It's Batman's Batman.This is this is Danley's birthday gift.

(01:51):
He's the author of these two books, The Boy Who Loved Batman and Batman's
Batman, the executive producer for allthe Batman movies. We talk about all
that stuff in the show. Hetells us how he acquired the rights to
Batman, and what it was likemaking the first Batman movie, what it
was like writing Batman comics, howKeaton made it, how Michael Keaton made
his daughter stop being grumpy. Yeah, and one of my favorite things.
He talks specifically about the Batman storythat the world needs the most right now.

(02:16):
Yeah, it's absolutely incredible. Makesure that you guys like subscribes.
So cool. Yeah, without anyfurther ado, on our sweet clean airways
today. Oh yeah, whip ohyeah. Is probably the guest that has
us more excited than anyone in ourlifetime, even though we may not have

(02:38):
known who he was back in nineteeneighty nine. It's actually my birthday,
guests. It is it is.It is your birthday, guests. It
is the fabulously talented the man whohas literally authored our childhoods. It is
the executive producer for Every Batman forNational Treasure. He wrote The Boy Who
Loved Batman and Batman's Batman Biographies abouthis incredible story in comics books. It

(03:00):
is a truly man, myth andlegend, the wonderful of the talented,
the very handsome Michael Yuslin, howare you, sir? Well? After
that introduction, um, you'll neverget me to leave this show. That
was fine. Yeah. Yeah,Well if you decide to never leave,
then I guess we'll just have toput up with it. I will talk

(03:21):
about Batman for four hours. Yeah, so twist of my arm. I
want to start out by asking aboutyour your books, because they're they're absolutely
phenomenal. We found out about youand and your work with the with Batman
through some friends of ours on apodcast called The Tattooine Sons. You were
you were interviewed by Nate, oneof the kids on there, who's an

(03:42):
absolute I mean, he's an encyclopediaof Batman. And one of the things
that stood out to me the most. I want to get to this first
because Daney's gonna hate it. Thatstood out to me the most in your
book is that you had a MickeyMantle baseball card in your bicycle spokes.
No, no, I had MickeyMantle baseball cards bolt upon on four spokes

(04:05):
attached by a close pin on thefront wheel, four more Mickey Mantle cards
attached with clothes pins on the back, and in that in those summers of
nineteen fifty nine, sixty sixty one, sixty two, they were good to
get the nice flapping noise that youwanted for about two weeks, maybe three,

(04:27):
and then they were kind of wornout. So I would take the
eight Mickey Mantle cards, chuck them, and put eight new Mickey Mantle cards
for the next two to three weeks. You know, yeah? Shoot me?
Now, how much? How muchwould those be worth? Now?
I mean, does ballpark? Doesanyone know? That's not a pun?
I assume no ballpark accidental. Ihave no idea, but it's got to

(04:54):
be a fortune. Yeah, yeah, I know. You you mentioned that
you had to buy four of theNumber one fantas pasting four comics that they're
worth like fifty two thousand dollars each. Those those Mickey Mantal cards have just
increased in value. So you howmany sets of eight do you think you
went through in that summer? Well, in those days, the summer lasted

(05:14):
a lifetime, you know, whenyou're a kid. So it was probably
about two months. And let's sayI got three weeks out of each set
of cards, so probably i've fourtimes eight, so I probably went I
probably went through you know, maybethirty two Mickey Mantle cards in the summer.

(05:36):
Well, so an we're all soloMickey Mantle. A lot of them
would have been freaking Team New YorkYankee pictures because Mickey was on it.
And in sixty two, the onething I did not do in sixty two
was my favorite baseball card of mylife and it was my idols, Mickey
Mantle and Willie Mays on one cardcalled Manager's Dream and I I refused to

(06:00):
put that on my bike. Ikept that one. I still have it.
Okay. So the nineteen fifty ninemint Mickey Mantel card, right,
that not the main condition, theone that is graded at an eight and
a half spokes, it's been itlooks it's got some rubbing on the edges.
Was just auctioned off for three hundredand nine thousand dollars. Yeah,

(06:20):
kill me now, seriously. Well, you know, and all of them
were mint because I opened up apackage of baseball cards and they had the
little white powder on the bubble gumon the bubble gum, yeah, and
you just kind of wiped it off. So they were all in mint condition
when I got them in it.It would have been you know, fifty
eight, fifty nine, sixty sixtyone, sixty two. That that would

(06:41):
have been the era. That's amazingwas that the most expensive summer of young
Michael's life. No, No,the most expensive summer was in let's see
fifth grade, when my uh mygood friend Bobby Klein, who was the
only other kid who was growing upwho was really into comic books and superheroes

(07:02):
like like I was. We wereat his house and we had just come
back from the first Comic Con,which was held in New York City in
like nineteen sixty four or sixty fivein this rundown, decrepit downtown hotel.
And when mister Klein heard that Bobbyhad taken out his Christmas Club account and

(07:28):
actually gave an adult man at thecomic con five dollars for a ten cent
comic book from nineteen forty, hefreaked out. And he as Bobby and
I were standing there, guys andI still occasionally wake up screaming in the
middle of the night, he tooka fireplace shovel and shoveled Bobby's entire comic

(07:49):
book collection into the fireplace. AndI can tell you right now we watched
Amazing Fantasy fifteen, Spider Man onethrough ten, Fantastic four one through twenty
All Avengers one X Men one notto mention, Showcase, Green Lantern,

(08:09):
Brave and Bowld, Justice League Flashone O five. All of it went
up in flames. Was Bobby notdoing his homework or something like occasionally I
see videos of Wow destroying this property. Why did he do that? Because
Bobby had taken out from his littlebank account that he saved fifty cents every

(08:31):
weekend and converted into cash. Andthen at the comic con he bought I
gotta think now he bought more funcomics. It was first Doctor Fate,
whatever the number was, escaping,but paid five dollars for what his father
said was a ten cent comic book. So some adult ripped him off of

(08:54):
his Christmas club money, the moneythat Bobby had to save for college,
and that tip scales. But yougot to remember, in the context of
the time, what was going onin America. There were comic book burnings
in America in the mid fifties.There were there. It's documented. You
can see stills of it online,you can see footage of it. It
was a bad time when doctor FrederickWortham's book Seduction of the Innocent came out

(09:16):
accusing comic books of being the causeof the post World War two rise of
juvenile delinquency in America. And hewent beyond that and said, if boys
read Batman and Robin comics, theywould turn into homosexuals, if girls read
Wonder Woman, they would turn intolesbians. And of course comic books cause
asthma because kids were staying indoors toread them instead of playing in the fresh

(09:41):
air and ptas and churches and templesand tea parties. Everybody got on board
because there had to be some reasonthat there was the juvenile delinquents running around,
and it couldn't be the fault ofthe parents, the schools or authority
figures. It had to be somethingin the media. Why don't they always

(10:03):
get to pick cool stuff? Theyalways got to pick cool stuff. They
go, Oh, it's D andD and all, let's torch it.
It's Harry Potter, let's burn it, burn the witches, Batman Terrible.
Yeah, it's always cool book.I'll tell you what savee com books.
It was rock and roll and ElvisPresley. Really, Oh, that's Satan.
There, sat is now and thewhole focus shifted. Satan now works

(10:26):
through us. It's abandoned it's nolonger Batman. It's Elvis. The pelvis
that's our real enemy these days.So and then it became Saturday Morning cartoons,
Then it became video games, thenit became rap and hip hop.
I mean, it's always something that'scausing these things, not society. Interesting.

(10:46):
Wow, Well, the the lossof comic books and the loss of
the mini Mantal Mickey Mantle cards,uh, does lead us to your fantastic
find. And I would love tohear the genesis from you of how you
came about getting involved with a Batmanbecause it seems like of all the losses
of the Mickey Mantle cards and thecomic books, you, I'm guessing would

(11:11):
say that you have gained tremendously stillfrom Batman. I would say your net
positive. How did you get involvedwith Batman? Okay? So how do
I tell the story in under sevenhours? Let me thank you? Take
seven hours. We're fine, We'vegot time, all right, So let's
start with genesis. When I wasa kid, I loved comic books.

(11:35):
I collected everything superheroes in particular,but I read and collected everything Archie classics,
illustrated, Richie rich It wasn't untilI was an adult that I was,
I realized, oh my god,that's Donald Trump and short pants.
I mean, I collected everything.By the time I graduated at high school,

(12:00):
I had over thirty thousand comic booksdating back to nineteen thirty six filled
my parents entire garage. My dadnever once got his car in a garage.
When I was five, I havean older brother, Paul. He's
four years older, so he kindof indoctrinated me and brought comic books into
the house and he brought me inand when I was five, Batman was

(12:22):
a little too dark and scary forme. I was more comfortable with Superman
because he was on TV every day, five days a week, and he
was more kitty, little kitty friendly. But by the time I was a
sophisticated six or seven, I wasreally into Batman. And it was all

(12:43):
the magic of what makes Batman sospecial. He has no superpowers. I
was able to so identify with himmore than Superman or Spider Man or the
Hulk, and it was for thatspecific reason. By the time I was
ten and read his origin and realizedhow he was created, that's primal.

(13:05):
I'm telling you. As a littlekid, I never thought about my parents
dying or what that would be like, and that Batman origin story took me
to a different level as a kid. He also had the greatest supervillains in
history, greatest Rogue Scaller, oh, no doubt, inarguably the greatest supervillain

(13:26):
ever created in the form of theJoker. And then he had the Car,
My god, the Car. Soyou know when I by the time
I was eight, I really didbelieve in my heart of hearts that if
I studied hard, if I workedout real hard, if my dad bought
me a cool car, I couldbe this guy. That's how strongly I
identified with Batman. So I wasalways looking for a way to make comic

(13:52):
books and superheroes into my primary hobbyand then into my primary work. How
I dreamed of one day writing BatmanComic Books Part two. It was a
cold night, January nineteen sixty six, a night I had been waiting for
for months and months. I'm soexcited because I'm downstairs in our den and

(14:16):
the Batman TV series is coming onthe air, and I look at it
and I go, oh, it'sin color. That's good. Oh,
look at that opening animation. Itkind of looks like Bob Kane Jerry Robinson
artwork. Wow, they're spending alot of money on these sets. Hey,
the Batmobile is really cool. Twentyminutes in it hits me like a

(14:39):
ton of bricks. Oh my god, this is a comedy. They're making
a joke out a Batman. Thewhole world is laughing at my Batman and
that just killed me. And toput it into perspective, why did it
hurt me so badly? A coupleof reasons. Number One, it was

(15:01):
the only version of Batman the wholeworld knew. The whole world didn't read
comic books. That was all theyknew about Batman. That was it that
hurt Number Two, At that firstlittle comic con that I went to,
I met a guy his name wasBill Finger, and Bill Finger sat with
thirteen year old Michael and told himthe story of how Batman was created.

(15:26):
And I felt this was a blemishon what Bill Finger and Bob Kane and
another guy I had a chance tomeet who became one of my mentors,
Jerry Robinson, who co created thejoker Robin Penguin to face. The list
goes on and on. So Imade a vow that Night at the end
of that TV show, and notunlike the vow that young Bruce Wayne once

(15:50):
made, except his parents were slaughteredon the street. Mine was safe in
the kitchen upstairs. But I vowedthat someday I would show the world a
true Batman the way they created innineteen thirty nine is a creature of the
Knight who stalks deeply disturbed villains.And part of that mission would be to

(16:11):
erase these new words that are flyingaround pal zap, wham. And that,
by the way, was the hardestthing of all of do decades and
decades and decades that anytime there wasa damn article about Batman anything, you
would see power, zapp or whamin the headline. You know. Even
when Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns cameout, a lot of the headlines where

(16:33):
pal Batman goes dark. It waslike inescapable. That was the beginning of
that Part three. I'm at IndianaUniversity. I'm an undergrad. It's the
seventies, and they had an experimentalcurriculum department at the school. If you

(16:56):
were if you had an idea fora college course, who've been taught before
and had the backing of a departmenton campus, even though you were an
undergrad, you would have the rightto teach it on campus for up to
three hours of credit. And Ithought, Wow, here's a way to
get my foot in the whole comicbook door. Nobody on the planet has
ever taught a course on comic books. Man, how great if I could

(17:18):
teach the world's first college accredited courseon comics. So I wrote out an
outline. I went to see doctorHenry Glassie, professor of folklore in Indiana,
and I said, doctor Glassie,these characters are a modern day mythology.
The ancient gods of Greece, Rome, Egypt all still exist, except

(17:41):
today they wear spandex and capes.I said. The Greeks called him Hermes,
the Romans called him Mercury. Icall him the Flesh. And he
said, you know, Michael,you're right. These really are the same.
It's the same stories of brave heroesfighting the demons and dragons of their
day. And it really doesn't matterif we call them King Arthur and the

(18:02):
Knights of the Round Table, orif we call them the Avengers or the
Justice League. It's all the same. I will back you so arm with
that with a pile of comic booksunder my arm, I go into pitch
to the dean and the professors.I have a Spider Man T shirt on,
my hair is down to my shoulders. I go walking in the door
of this big conference room with thisbig conference table. Dean sitting at the

(18:26):
end. Did ever see an olderperson? It has like half glasses,
and they were so looking down atme over those little glasses. And he
says, so you're the fellow whowants to teach a course on funny books
at my university. And I knewI was in deep trouble. I start

(18:49):
pitching for the first time in mylife. He lets me speak for two
minutes and cuts me off. Hesays, mister Yusland, stop, come
on, really, He goes,I read Superman comics when I was a
little boy, but all comic booksare our cheap entertainment for little children,
no more, no less, AndI reject your theory. Guys. This

(19:11):
became a life changing moment for mebecause I could have bad my head,
picked up my funny books and turnedaround and walked out of the room.
But instead, figuring I have nothingto lose, I stood my ground and
I said to the Dean, mayI ask you just two questions. He
said, ask me anything you want. I said, Dean, are you
familiar with the story of Moses?And he looked at me like I was

(19:33):
crazy. He says, yeah,So I said, Soudan, very very
briefly, could you just summarize forme the story of young Moses? And
he sat back its arms folded.He goes, mister Uslin, I don't
know a game you're playing here,but I have no problem playing this with
you. The Hebrew people were beingpersecuted and their first born were being slain.

(19:56):
A Hebrew couple placed their infants onin a little wicker basket and send
him down the River Nile. Thereis discovered by an Egyptian family who raised
him as their own son. Butwhen he grows up and learns of his
true heritage, he becomes a greathero to his people. By stop,
I said that was great, Dean, Thank you very much. You said
you're a superman when you were akid. By an a chance to remember
the origin of Superman, he says, sure. The planet Kryptom was about

(20:19):
to blow up. A scientist andhis wife placed their infant son in a
little rocketship and send him to Earth. There he's discovered by the Kent who
raised him as their own son.When he grows up. And then the
Dean stops, stares at me forwhat I swear to you was an eternity
and says, your course is accredited. Wow, that was there. I

(20:41):
am now the world's first college professorof fricking comic books. Wow, tying
Superman and Moses together. What you'reright, they do have very similar born
there from what I understand it.You can correct me if I'm wrong here.
I'm liable to be wrong a lotin this interview that that was also
created by Jewish writers, and thiswas like one of their intense Is that

(21:03):
correct? Yeah? Well it wasJerry Siegel is Jewish, Joe and Joe
Schuster who was the artist. Itwas more to to recreate the immigrant experience
of Jews who left Europe and cameto America. That's so cool. It
was more of the ultimate immigrant story, assimilation and you know the difficulties and

(21:30):
everything that went along with it.Um. Yeah, we could talk for
hours just about the influence of likeStanley told me, the Goallum, which
is a a myth, a Jewishmyth about this creature made out of clay
who comes to life in a templein Prague and becomes a hero to the

(21:53):
downtrodden Jewish people. And it's theHulk. I mean eight, I really
truly was the Hulk. So yeah, there was a lot of it like
that. So I go back tomy apartment and I call my mom in
New Jersey and she I'm so excited, and she says, well, Michael,
you know this is really great.But you know, if you don't

(22:15):
market yourself, if you don't marketyour creative ideas and whares, nobody'll ever
know about them. I said,Mom, how do I market myself?
I'm like nineteen and a half yearsold. I'm in Bloomington, Indiana.
I have no money. She said, oh, you're a smart boy.
You'll think of something. So Iput down the phone. I thought for

(22:37):
a few minutes, picked up thephone again and called United Press International.
Back then, they were as biga nuisen to get as the Associated Press
is today. I asked to speakto a reporter and began to scream at
this man when he got on thephone. I said, what's wrong with
you? You're not doing your job? You're supposed to be the watchdogs of
our society. He said, Calmdown, sir, He goes, what

(23:00):
are you talking about? What areyou talking about? Are you kidding me?
I just heard there's a course oncomic books being taught at Indiana University.
Are you telling me, as ataxpayer in this state, that they're
using my money to teach our kidscomic books? This is outrageous. This
must be some communist plot to subvertthe youth of America. And I slammed
down the phone. Three days later, this guy tracked me down, rang

(23:23):
my doorbell with a photographer, andthat article went out and was picked up
by virtually every newspaper in North America, a bunch in Europe. My phone
started ringing and it never stopped.I was invited on radio and TV talk
shows. Every comic book class Itaught, the room was filled with television
cameras and reporters. And about twothree weeks later, my phone rings and

(23:48):
it's this exuberant mail voice. Hiis this Mike Uselin? Yeah, he
goes, Hi, a Mike,this is stan Lee from Marvel Comics,
New York. I call this myburning Bush moment. I was talking to
my god, and he said,Mike, everywhere I look, I'm seeing

(24:10):
on TV. I'm reading about yournewspapers. What you're doing is great for
the whole comic book industry. Howcan I help you? At that moment,
Stanlee transformed from being my idol tomy mentor ultimately to my friend.
Ultimately we worked together creatively, andat the end of the day, my
son David and I were two ofthe producers of his memorial at Grahman's Chinese

(24:33):
Theater in Hollywood Wow. Two hourslater, the phone rings, mister Yuselin.
My name is Saul Harrison. I'mvice president of DC Comics in New
York. The president Carmine Infantino,and I have been listening to you on
the radio. We've been reading aboutyou in magazines. You are a very

(24:55):
innovative young man. We would liketo fly you to New York City and
talk about ways we could work together. I don't have to tell you.
Comic book geek dream come true.Yeah to New York. Um. You
know, I grew up in NewJersey, So I'm I'm going to go
to work in New York summers andthen they're gonna put me on retainer.
And paint me when I go backto Indiana to finish school. I mean

(25:18):
it was. It was amazing.So and that was two And that was
two hours later after talking to Stanley. Yeah, but where do you go
from there? As in your nightyou forget forget the Mickey Mantle car.
Yeah, no kidding, that's incredible. It was absolutely amazing. So first

(25:40):
day on my job at DC,maybe it wasn't the first day, let's
call it the first week. Um, It's like six o'clock at night.
So I'm getting ready to go catchthe subway so I could catch the train
back to the Jersey Shore. AndI start to hear yelling and screaming coming

(26:02):
from down the hallway, the editorshall. It sounds like somebody's being murdered.
I go running down there. It'sDenny O'Neill, who happens to be
one of my favorite comic book writersof all time. And he was also
at that time writing and editing acomic book called The Shadow. If you
guys have ever seen a draw byit was one of the best comic books

(26:23):
on the market. It was magnificent, all set in the nineteen thirties and
forties. And I said Denny,what's wrong? Are you okay? He
goes, I am not okay,Michael, I go, what's the matter.
He goes, Carmine had canceled theshadow and now they got the latest
sales report and the sales spiked andhe just uncanceled it. I go,

(26:47):
well, isn't that good news?He says no, because now we're on
our original printing schedule and you haveto meet that for the printing press,
and that means I have to havea full script in by the end of
the day eight tomorrow. I said, what's the problem. He said,
Well, the problem is I don'thave a shadow script. I don't have

(27:07):
a shadows story. He goes,I don't even have an idea for a
shadows story. And I raised myhand to go, Denny, I have
an idea for a shadow story.He said, you do. I didn't.
What I mean, really what Itold the door open a crack like
this. I just shoved my footin. He goes, all right,
come in, sit down, tellme what your idea is for a shadow

(27:29):
story. Well, the wheels arerolling. Yeah, Well you're you're really
gonna like this, Denny. It'sreally my girlfriend and I just came back
from Niagara Falls and up in NiagaraFalls. Back in the nineteen thirties and
forties, when the Shadows stories wereset, people were walking across the falls

(27:52):
on tight ropes and they were goingover the falls and barrels. I go,
so my story would be the Shadowbattling a bad guy on a tight
rope over Niagara Falls at night withthe searchlights going. He says, Michael,
that's a great visual, that's agreat cover. But what's the story
about. I said, well,I'm glad you asked me that question,
because the story is about smuggling.He goes, well, what are they

(28:18):
smuggling? I go, well,Danny, they are smuggling drugs. And
he says, all right, Michael, there has to be a creative take.
What's different, what's unique about theway they're smuggling drugs That will make
a good story. And I'm goinglong, I'm glad you said you asked
me that, Quesse, I've beensaving this for last it's the best part.

(28:41):
And they were going over the fallsand barrels back then, false bottoms
and the barrels they're putting the drugsin there. They're going over the Canadian
Falls, washing up on the Americanside. That's how they're getting them through.
He says, Now that's creative.Can you have a full sure ripped
on my desk by six o'clock tomorrownight? I said, not a problem,

(29:03):
he says, go do it.I'm now a writer for DC Comics.
Wow, that's awesome. I pullan all nighter. I get the
script in at six o'clock that night. Next night, a week or so
goes by. I'm walking down theeditorial hall, and who's coming toward me
but arguably the greatest editor in thehistory of comics, Julie Schwartz. Now,

(29:26):
if you don't know what Julie did, folks, he is responsible in
the comics for returning Batman to hisdarkness after the TV show went off the
air. He was the guy whobrought in irv Novic and then Neil Adams
and Denny O'Neill to reinvent Batman andbring the darkness back. He also happened
to give us the silver aged flashgreen lantern Hawkman Adam in Justice League.

(29:49):
Julie was a gruff guy. Imean, once he got to know him,
he was kind of a marshmallow,but it was gruff. So he
sees me coming the kid with thelong hair. He goes, hey kid.
I said, yes, Julie.He goes, I read your shadow
script. I said, you did. He goes, yeah, it didn't

(30:11):
stink. I said, wow,thank you so much, thank you,
thank you. And he looks atme, goes, how'd you like to
take a shot at writing Batman?Oh my gosh, Man, I still
get the chills. I still getthe chills. I started writing Batman with

(30:33):
my buddy Barbara Zakis and Detective Comics. Yeah. When that first issue came
out, I will admit it throughall the tears, I panicked. I
said, oh my god, thisdream I had since I was eight years
old to write Batman comics has cometrue. I don't have a dream anymore.

(30:55):
I need a new dream. Ittook ten minutes for the epiphany to
hit. I remembered back to thatcold night in January nineteen sixty six.
In my vow, I said,Okay, I am going to make dark
and serious Batman movies, and Iam going to show the whole world who
the true Batman is. Love it. Man, you are the author of

(31:15):
my childhood. I can't telling youmy adulthood too. Yeah, like This
is one of the things that myfavorite picture. We've got a ten month
old. He was born two monthspremature. One of the very first things
that was given to us is thisBatman onesie, right and it has been
a long emotional journey for my wifeand I, you know, eight weeks

(31:36):
in the niku and then he getsout and he's still so tiny and all
this. But the minute that weput that Batman onesie on him for the
first time, I was like,he's this is our freaking hero right here.
And he's laughing. And immediately hespits up on it and it's covered
and I'm like, hey, itscreen printed. We can just wipe it
right off. That's one of myfavorite pictures of our son is that.

(31:56):
And I'm so excited to get toshare with him these these stories that are
coming from Batman and the new moviesthat are that are coming out, and
just the whole history of it.The fact that we get to share that
with our kids, and that You'vebeen such a big part of that is
just incredible. So you write yourfirst Batman comics, like, I'm not
done with Batman? Yeah, yeah, you write your first Batman comic.
How do you get to make inthe Batman movies. Okay, So I

(32:20):
go back to Saul Harrison, whomentored me into the business. And while
I was working at DC, sometimesinstead of going to lunch with the guys,
I'd go to the downstairs lunch whenSaul and Carmine and Bill Gaines and
Jack Adler and Julie Schwartz and MurrayBoltonoff and Bob Kannager Joe Hubert. I

(32:44):
would sit with these guys, askquestions, listen to their stories, and
I learned the whole history of DCand the comic book industry. And I
also gained their confidence. They allrealized how much I loved this stuff,
how I was actually a comic bookhistorian and thirsted for this. So they
got to know me while I wasgetting to know them. So I go

(33:06):
back to Saul, and I said, Saul, I want to buy the
rights to Batman and make dark andserious comic book movies. And Saul,
who was very father to me,fatherly toward me. He looked like,
did you guys ever see the movieposter for Home Alone? Yeah? Yeah,
yeah, yeah yeah, this iswhat he looked like, you know,
with his hands on his head andhe goes Michael. For God's sake,

(33:30):
don't do this. He said,I don't want to see you lose
all your money. Don't you understandSon that when Batman went off the air
in television, the brand has becomedead as a dodo. That's a quote,
he said, Michael, nobody's interestedin Batman anymore. I said,

(33:51):
but, Saul, nobody's ever seena movie, a comic book movie,
a superhero movie done in a darkand serious way. This could be like
a whole new form of entertainment.He said, Look, go get credentials.
I'll let you know if anybody pokesaround for the rights, but nobody's
going to be poking around for theserights. Go get credentials and then come

(34:13):
back and see me. Plan B, Plan B. So I wound up
going to law school at Indiana.I took every course I could find having
anything to do with copywriter communications.I wrote one hundred and four page copyright
paper on copyright infringement in the comicbook industry, and it won an award.

(34:35):
I get out of law school.I immediately get a job as a
motion picture production attorney for United Artistsin New York when it was one of
the major movie studios. There.They put the lawyers in charge of all
business, legal and financial affairs witheach picture as it's going to be developed
and produced and released, so onesthat fell into lap. Of course,

(35:00):
they quickly turned to me. Knowingmy background. They gave me Sheena,
Queen of the Jungle, but Ialso had the first three Rocky pictures,
Black Stallion, Raging Bull, andfor two and a half years of my
life, Apocalypse Now, which wasa crisis every single day. They used
to tell me I was getting theexperience of eleven movies on that one.

(35:23):
I networked like mad I learned howyou finance and produce movies. And after
doing that for about three and ahalf years, I went back to Saul,
who's now president of DC Comics.I said, Saw, I have
the credentials. He said, Michael, this is a terrible idea. I
don't want you to lose your money. Is there any way I can talk

(35:45):
you out of this? And Isaid no. He said, and here's
a quote. All right, Schmusel, come on in. And that began
a six month negotiation that gave meenough time to a find a partner who
knew had amount of production and mypartner is a legend in the movie business.

(36:08):
He was my dad's age. Hisname was Benjamin Melnicker. Ben in
the Tiffany days of MGM was theirone executive vice president. All divisions reported
to Ben. He was chairman ofthe film Selection Committee. He was on
the parent board for Lowe's. Benput together to deal with Colonel Tom Parker
to bring Elvis Presley to MGM.He put together the deals for Ben Hur

(36:31):
Doctor Gavago two thousand and one,A Space Odyssey, Gigi, and all
those musicals. When I say legend, I am not kidding. October third,
nineteen seventy nine, we formed batFilm Productions. We signed the contract,
we paid the money, and Iput Batman in my back pocket and

(36:57):
off I went to Hollywood. Iwas so damn convinced that this was going
to be a slam dunk situation forme. How could it not be?
How could anybody in Hollywood not seethe potential for sequels, animation, toys,
games. I get out there,I am turned down by every single

(37:19):
studio in Hollywood, every mini majorin Hollywood. I am told point blank,
I'm crazy, that it's the worstidea they ever heard. Kid,
you can't do serious comic book movies, son, you can't do dark superheroes.
You can't make a movie out ofan old television series. It's never

(37:42):
been done. As a result,from the time that day I bought the
rights to Batman till the day wefinally got our first movie made in nineteen
eighty nine, took ten years,dang, ten years of reject in,
ten years of everybody telling you yousuck, your idea stinks. And let

(38:06):
me tell you something, guys,it tests your metal as a human being.
You have to look deep inside yourselfand say, Okay, is the
whole world right and I'm just beingstubborn? Or do I absolutely truly believe
in this and believe in myself?And I kept coming up with a latter
answer. It was a human endurancecontest for me. My wife, God

(38:30):
bless her. We didn't know howwe were going to pay next week's bills,
never mind next month's bills, butshe had faith in me. I
had faith in this vision of Batman. And let me just tell you one
story. Of all the rejections,we finally came back and pitched to Columbia

(38:55):
this is down the road a bit, and the guy we pitched too had
been there for decades. He wasan old buddy of Ben's from the forties
or fifties. I pitched my heartout for a dark and serious Batman.
This was the last studio shot wehad, and when I finished, he

(39:15):
said, Michael, you're crazy.Batman will never be successful as a movie
because our movie Annie isn't doing well. I said, are you talking about
the little redheaded girl from Broadway whosings the song Tomorrow? He goes,

(39:37):
yeah. I go, what doesthat have to do with Batman? He
said, Oh, come on,Michael, they're both out of the funny
pages. Oh my gosh. Thatwas my rejection from Colombia. So what
I asked you guys to do,because you know, anyone listening to this
is going to say, well,wait a minute, this is impossible.

(40:00):
A kid in his twenties can't goin and buy the rights to Batman.
That can't be They're gonna go it'simpossible. You can't go to every single
studio in Mini Major and have peopleturned it down for reasons like this.
So I have to make sure youunderstand the context of the times, the
culture it was. These were alladults at the time that doctor Frederick Wortham

(40:22):
published Seduction of the Innocent in themid fifties, when comic books came under
attack, when they were looked downupon by all of society as either garbage
or something that could be harmful toour kids. So that's the mentality I
was facing in the late seventies andinto the eighties in the world of Hollywood,

(40:45):
and that's why this stuff was happening. So then he turns to Ben
finally and he says, look,Ben, you and I go back a
long way. If you boys reallywant to do a Batman movie, I
will consider, but it's got tobe that pot bellied, funny guy with
the pals apps and whams from TV, because that's the only one audiences will

(41:07):
remember in love. And I saidno. And with that he pulled his
chair right in front of me andleaned into me and he said, Son,
better to have a movie made thanno movie at all. And I
looked at him and I said no. Wow, that was that. After

(41:30):
that meeting, we're on a littlepark bench on the studio lot. I
have my head down. I amdestroyed, and I know that was our
last shot. And Ben, inhis fatherly way, turns to me,
says, you know, Michael,isn't it ironic that the last no we

(41:51):
received came from you? He said, you know what that makes you?
I said, yeah, Ben,I know, an idiot. He says,
no, no, no, no. He says, Michael, you
just passed up a chance to makea lot of money and to produce your
first big movie because you have thisvision of this dark and serious batman they

(42:13):
eat with your heart and soul youbelieve is the right one, and you
gave all that up to preserve that. He says, Michael, you're Batman's
defender. You are Batman's protector.He says, Michael, you're Batman's Batman.
He said, now pick yourself up. There's other places we can go.

(42:35):
There's foreign sources, there's independent sources. Let's redouble our efforts and let's
do it. And he pulled meout of it, and we jumped off
that park bench, ultimately into history. And now you know where the title
of the second volume of my memoircomes from. It's from that anecdote,
Good Grief, What a shot inthe arm. That had to be,

(42:58):
like, you're Batman's Batman. I'mif I was, If I was Thor's
Thor. I would be there.That would be the happiest little boy on
the plane if I would. IfI was Thor Thor, I would go
out and get hammered. I believethe pun was intended. There was an

(43:19):
Okay, so you you acquire therights, you become Batman's Batman, and
now have given us the thirty plusyears of our our favorite films. Um
what a title. Yeah, no, no kidding, I'm I'm at this
point in your story. I'm justkind of glad. I'm still walking about
that for words of like how allof this stuff happens and Dark Nights Defender.

(43:43):
Yeah. One of the things thatI think is so interesting is that,
Okay, so you get it donein nineteen eighty nine, while you're
in production of and you can correctme again if my timeline is wrong here,
while you're in production of U Batmaneighty nine, you're on set with
with Keaton and with all of theselegends Keaton and Nicholson and Tim Burton want

(44:07):
yeah. Yeah, So you guysare making this well in the comic world.
We're having this huge, huge,huge crisis with Batman because it's it's
during the time of a death inthe family if I'm correct, Like that's
a nineteen eighty eight story. Sowere you guys in production when all of
that is going on. Yeah,we went into production October tenth, nineteen

(44:28):
eighty eight. Okay, so youknow, I mean it was even really
too late for Dark Knight Returns tohave that big of an impact on Tim.
Right, the Dark Knight Returns hada bigger impact on Hollywood and the
executives in the world audience when theyrealize, oh, you mean these stories,
these characters are not just for eightto twelve year old boys and you're

(44:52):
That was the beginning of the tryingto tell in that culture I was dealing
with, and that was where ithad the biggest impact of all. But
I'll take you back on the TimBurton thing and then remind me to tell
you about my kids on the set, because you brought up about the impact
on kids, and as a parent, you know what you see. So

(45:15):
from seventy nine to eighty six,it was development hell, just development hell.
And in eighty six, my recollectionis a little fuzzy. I think
it was Roger Burnbaum who brought Timinto the fold, but I'm not one
hundred percent sure of that. Iget a call from must have been Michael

(45:37):
Bestman at the studio, who wasour production executive, brilliant production executive who
deserves tons of credit for Sam Ham'sscript ultimately for everything coming together really nicely.
But anyway, it was we gotthis kid. He came out of

(45:59):
Disney Animation and he's been doing thismovie for us. You need to see
this. We want to set upa screening of the fine cut of Peewee's
Big Adventure. So I go tothe studio, I see the movie,
I come out and I said,my god, I've never seen a more
creative combination of direction in art directionin my life. I would love to

(46:19):
beat this guy. So they setup a series of three lunches for me
with Tim and my primary job.My secondary job was to indoctrinate him into
the world of Batman. My primaryjob was to keep him away from all
the crazy Batman. So I hadto keep him away from bat Genie,

(46:45):
bat Might, oh, Robot Batman, Yeah, all the crazy, crazy,
campy stuff. So what I woundup giving him either out of my
own collection or in reprint Detective Comicstwenty seven through thirty eight. Batman comics
number one that introduced the Joker andCatwoman. I then gave him the Denny

(47:10):
O'Neill, Neil Adams run and theMarshall Rogers Steve Engelhart run and I said
this, these constitute the Batman andexplained there's a big difference from Batman and
the Batman. Yeah. So bythe end of the third lunch, I
knew this was the guy. Thiswas absolutely the guy. And he had

(47:36):
worked with Michael Keaton Beetlejuice, andhe then had the big idea. That's
what I always call it, thebig idea. Tim Burton a genius,
and the pure genius of this ideahas changed Hollywood forever, has changed the
world culture's perception of comic books andsuperheroes forever. And it was this said

(48:01):
to me one day, Michael,if we are going to do the first
dark and serious movie superhero movie,and we don't want to get unintentional laughs
from the audience when they see aguy getting into a batsuit to go out

(48:22):
and fight a guy who looks likethe Joker, there's only one real way
to do it. He said,this movie cannot be about Batman. Now,
I think at that moment I wassomewhere between catatonic and melting into the
ground. What are you talking about? What this is about Batman? Yeah?

(48:43):
He said, no, this moviemust be about Bruce Wayne. Okay,
and go yeah, guys, thatis the big idea. It is
that that changed history. It isthat that and Stanley told me this point
blank, and I'm sure Kevin Fagiwill agree. That is what opened the

(49:06):
door to the Marvel cinematic universe.Let me think about it. We've all
been to the Iron Man movies.Should they really be entitled Tony Stark?
Yeah, yeah, for sure.We watched the Spider Man movies. They
should really be called Peter Parker.This is all Tim Burton's big idea,
and he had a corollary to it. His corollary was, from the opening

(49:27):
frames of this movie, Gotham Citywill be our third most important character,
because we must get audiences right upfront to suspend their disbelief, believe in
Gotham City, and only then willthey be able to believe a guy could
get dressed up as a bat andgo fight a guy who looks like the
Joker. And he was right,he was right. And then we were

(49:52):
joined by the second genius. Iever had the pleasure of working with my
dear friend whom I miss greatly.Anton First and Ton was our production designer.
He was the guy who came inand envisioned Gotham City and the Batmobile,
the whole look of the picture.I mean, it was just it
was just incredible, incredible what wastaking place. I remember, I don't

(50:17):
know how old it was. Icould have been that old. Yeah,
we're eighty five models, so wewere young whenever this came out, and
I was at my grandparents house andthey said, do you want to watch
Batman? Your parents won't like that. I'm showing you this ye And I
said, yes, I want towatch Batman and we're just seeing it.
I'm Beta Max or VHS. Itwas VHS for sure. I don't know.

(50:37):
It had to have been late eighties, so I mean it wasn't it
wasn't that. Yeah, it wasprobably four or five. Yeah, we
had it on VHS and my dadhad taped it from HBO, and that
is the we would walk home fromschool. And so it's me. I'm
the oldest of four, So it'sme and my two younger brothers and my
sister and there's five years between allof us, so my parents had us

(51:00):
all really close together. We wouldwalk home from school and we would we
would get our snack and while momand dad were at work and their kind
of Dad worked the day shift,Mom works the night shift, and so
they're in that period right before dadgets home, right after Mom left for
work, we would go to thecabinet where they kept the HBO movies.
We would pull out Batman and wewould watch as much of it as we

(51:21):
could before Dad got home, becausehe didn't think our little sister was old
enough to be watching it. Sowe would all watch as much of it
as we could, and we wouldput it back because it would save the
spot right, we didn't have torewind it. And then the next day
we would do the same thing.And we watched that movie for weeks on
end until we discovered Monty Python's Questfor the Holy Grail, and that gave
us a little shift into another genreof film, but but that was it.

(51:43):
Batman was the movie that we allwe all watched together. It was
totally different than anything that had everbeen made. And you said, your
kids got to come and we're onset with you during Batman eighty nine.
Yeah, just a couple of things, because, as you said before,
these are legacy issues, you know, when it comes down to it.
My son was eight, my daughterwas four, and for David, I

(52:07):
got Andy Smith, who was theguy who worked with Anton on the Batmobile.
He drove it. He was oneof the primary drivers of it because
the thing had virtually no visibility yea, So like when he drove it through
the chemical factory and had a machinegun the door and that was all Andy

(52:27):
driving almost blind. So Andy tookmy two kids for a ride in the
Batmobile through Gotham City and there werefive square city blocks built of Gotham City.
So my daughter was It's only atwo seater, so my daughter's kind
of stuck in the middle, andof course, my son, being my
son, tells her, you seethat button, Sarah, If I press

(52:52):
that button, you're in the ejectorscene. It's going to shoot you out.
You're gonna land on top of theroof of that. To this day,
my daughter gets very nervous and upsetif she has to sit in the
front seat of a car. Mysister and with Sarah, just two things.

(53:12):
Number one, she was having aparticularly bad day. She wasn't happy
about anything. Miss a kid atfour years old. She had a headful
of curls like Shirley Temple. Andshe was sitting We're in the executive dining
room at Pinewood and she's sitting nearGrumpy and it's lunchbreak and incomes Michael Keaton
in full gear without the cowl andthe cake, and he's walking by the

(53:35):
table. He eyes her, thenstops and turns around and he goes,
Sarah, what's the matter. Andshe goes and he winds up sitting in
her lap, and she had greenpeas on her plate and he starts flicking
the green peas up at her.To make a long story short, she

(53:58):
gets into a food fight with Batman. Changed her whole outlook. It was
just it was just a magical littlemoment. My favorite thing is when we
were shooting that incredibly iconic scene upon the roof and it wasn't a real
roof. It was, you know, a set inside, but you had

(54:19):
to climb up a ladder day toget up there. This was the rooftop
scene where he takes the guy andhe goes, who are you man?
He goes, I'm Batman. Throwshim down, turns around and jumps.
That was the scene to be shot. So I was up on the roof
with my wife and my two kidsand Sarah at age four, who after

(54:43):
the food fight. You know,she was in love with Michael Peter.
She's literally underneath his right elbow.And I said to the first ad,
oh, let me get her outof the way. He goes. Now,
she's fine there, She's gonna beout of shot. So while oh,
this is happening, the thing thatthe world knows I'm Batman every time

(55:05):
I see it on a big screen, I'm looking at the bottom of Michael's
right elbow for just a little snippetof one of those Shirley Temple curls on
top of my daughter's head. Youknow, you can't You can't buy moments
like that, no kidding. Andthere was a thing a couple a few

(55:29):
weeks ago in Los Angeles where theywere doing a special Michael Keaton connected Batman
flash thing, and they brought outthe original Batmobile from eighty nine that was
also used a bit in ninety two, and the guys from Warners were there,

(55:52):
and I started asking them questions,and I had both of my kids
and I had my two granddaughters thereand they said, no, this is
the one that was This one wasat Pinewood And it turned out that was
the Batmobile. My two kids werein Wow when they were eight four,
and we put my two granddaughters inand they got to be in that very

(56:16):
very same batmobile. That was itfor me. That was for me.
So yeah, there's a lot ofsweet moments to it all, a lot
of legacy moments. Did their uncletalk about the injector seat? Oh?
Absolutely absolutely, and so did mydaughter. Boy, this is why out
in her this is why mom doesn'tlike sitting in the front seat with daddy.

(56:37):
Yeah, that's it. So youyou have these magical moments with Michael
Keaton and with your kids on theset. What was it like for you
getting to see him come back asBatman in in the Flash overwhelming, surrealistic,
nostalgic. Um, It was likethe connection of the circle of life.

(57:06):
Yeah. I had a very surrealisticmoment watching Birdman. Yeah and knowing.
I mean, Bob Kane told mepoint blank when he created the character,
originally it was called Birdman. Onlya little bit later did he change
it to Batman. And my god, it was just very surrealistic to me.

(57:28):
And then this topped it. Thistopped it. It was an amazing
thing to feel an experience. Andit wasn't just about him being there.
It was him being there with theeighty nine batmobile, with the eighty nine
bat cave, you know it wasit was the whole nine yards for bat
nuts. Yeah, yeah, man, it really truly was. It was

(57:51):
very incredible. It was nostalgic forus to I I loved his every every
second he was on screen in theflash. I love And I found that
interesting that you said, you know, you mentioned that you didn't want to
have any in order to keep peoplefrom laughing when they come on screen.
Right, we focused on Bruce Wayne. I am curious. Did you have

(58:17):
any decision making in casting Keaton inthe first place because he is he's hysterical,
Yeah, because he has a strongcomedic Yeah, that's Tim Burton.
Really, Tim had worked with him. I'm beetle, I'm making a beetle
juice, right, Okay? Andall right, So then I get the
call from again Michael Bestman. I'msure who said, so, what do

(58:39):
you think of Tim's new idea forcasting? I said, what's that.
He said, Michael Keaton as Batman. I said that that's very funny.
I said, yeah, we've beenworking on this now seven and a half
years to do a dark and seriousfatman. Let's have mister mom do it
exactly now. Mister Mom is Batman. I thought he was kidding me.

(59:02):
It took him twenty minutes to convinceme this was real, and I had
a meltdown and I talked to Timabout it, and I said, Tim,
he's a comedian. He's my height. He doesn't have the musculature,
and for God's sake, he doesn'thave the square jaw of Batman. And
Tim Burton, in his genius andinfinite wisdom, said to me, you

(59:29):
know, Michael, when you movefrom one medium to another, a square
jaw does not a Batman make.He said, this is all about Bruce
Wayne, and with Michael Keaton,wen he goes. With Michael Keaton,
I can convince audiences that this BruceWayne is so driven, so obsessed to

(59:50):
the point of being psychotic, thatthey will believe he would put on a
costume like this and go out anddo it. He says, if I
have to do that with a quoteunquote serious actor. Now back then we're
talking Dennis Quaid, Harrison Ford,Kevin Costner. He goes, I don't
know how to shoot that without gettingunintentional asking the audience, he said,
I can carve musculature into a costume. Yeah, I can cheat height,

(01:00:16):
but um, that's what it takes. And once again he was absolutely right.
Yeah, he nailed changed everything.I was so happy to see in
the flash. I just I hadthis picture burned into my image, into
my brain now of Michael Keaton inthe in the cowl, flying the eighty

(01:00:37):
nine ye, when he's got thissmirk on his face that I just I
love. I love Keaton as Batman. I'm so happy he was back.
Yeah. I think we both considerMichael Keaton our Batman because it was our
first exposure to it. I reallylove following your socials your take on who

(01:00:59):
the real Batman is because from thevery beginning, from we disagree, we
do, but from the from thevery beginning that Keaton was a controversial Batman
because he came from is it alwayscontroversial? Every Batman is like that?
And a lot of people argue aboutBatman. Will you share with our audience
what your take is on who thereal Batman is, because I love this.

(01:01:21):
Sure, there's only one who isit? There is only one true
Batman. The one true Batman isthe one you were first introduced to when
you were five or eight, ortwelve or sixteen, whether it was one
incarnation or another from a comic book, whether it was a cartoon, whether
it was a TV show or amovie or a video game, that is

(01:01:45):
your one true Batman. And what'sbeen lost in the madness of social media
is the fact that if we agreewe can live in a civilize this world,
we all need to respect each otherfor the individual choice of who each

(01:02:07):
person's one true Batman is. Wecan debate it, we can talk about
why ours is a better Batman,but it has to be done with respect
because it is a person's true belief. I think that same logic applies to
a lot, like like the doctorfrom Doctor Who. Yeah, he's been

(01:02:29):
around for so long that there arepeople that tom I'm try to remember his
name. He's in Lord of theRings. It doesn't matter, but there's
been um Mine is probably David Tennant, which is when I started watching.
So I think you're you're riots whicheverwhen you when you first fall in love
with the character, when you firstget exposed to him. My my Batman

(01:02:49):
is Will Arnett, and I thinkthat far and away absolutely solid, legitimate
choice for a lot of people.With Kevin Kevin Conny, well that's that's
Danley's Batman and Danley you uh,you had a question about Kevin that you
wanted to ask. Yeah, so, you know, we tragically lost Kevin
Conroy, who was who was myprobably favorite? I mean, I love

(01:03:15):
almost all of them, but Batmananimated series was every day for us.
Yeah, and then the and thenthe the video games and the different animated
the Pantasm please oh yeah, gosh, but maybe the quintessential animated movie for
or Batman. Yeah. So,so I guess my question is we've got
Suicide Squad coming up in twenty twentyfour, the release um in which I

(01:03:37):
believe was his last performance the videogames Suicide Squad. Um. Did where
did you get to be there atall? Uh, you know, for
his last performance or did you knowthat was going to be the last time
he voiced Batman? Now I waswith Kevin. So every year I go

(01:03:59):
back to Indiana University and teach twointensive courses for three weeks at the Media
School. One of my two coursesis Live from Hollywood Experiential Learning from the
Trenches. And I have thirty ofmy pals in the industry who represent every
aspect of filmmaking. An agent,entertainment lawyer, a talent manager, a

(01:04:21):
screenwriter, a director, a studiopresident, someone in marketing, someone in
merchandising. Tony Bancroft, the directorof the animated Mulan for Disney. Mark
Hamill will often do my class totalk about acting. And every year Andrea

(01:04:43):
Romano, who did the voicecasting andvoice direction on the Batman, the Great
Batman stuff. I've had, PaulDeaney Heath Courson, who were two of
the writers. Paul, of course, you know, created Harley Quinn and
was probably you know, it wassuch a great force on Batman the animated

(01:05:05):
series. Legendary people, and Kevinalways did it. This last year I
reached out to him and he said, I'll absolutely do it if I can.
I said, well, and Ididn't know how sick he was,
but at all, And I said, oh, because I got to kind

(01:05:28):
of, you know, lock thisin. He said, you know what,
just put down I will do it. I said, okay, this
was two weeks before he passed away. He came on the zoom screen in
my classroom, and I immediately realizedthat this was the end for him.

(01:05:55):
It's very clear. For the nexthour, he spoke to my class in
a way I have never heard himspeak to my class. He's always great,
he's always entertaining, but there wasa depth to what he was saying

(01:06:18):
and how he was saying it,almost to the fact of leading with my
class. Explore, find your passion, be driven by your passion. Include
your passion in your work, whateveryou choose to do. And I don't

(01:06:40):
know which one of you out therewant to be a writer, a director,
an editor, a DP, aproducer. He goes an actor.
It doesn't matter. Everything involves acraft, and your job is to master
your craft, whatever it takes.And if you make the commitment and get

(01:07:05):
up off the couch and persevere,because nothing worthwhile is ever easy or quick,
that you can live the kind oflife I've been able to live and
do these great, wonderful things thatare that are fun but also are meaningful.

(01:07:26):
He knew he had days left,and the thirty five people who interacted
with him, we'll never forget it. I believe for all of them it
was life impactful and for a goodlynumber them it was life changing. That,

(01:07:50):
folks, was Kevin Conroy my favoritebatman and why I believe he's the
greatest Batman of just further further andfurther evidence, no no doubt. And
that was when when I first reachedout to Michael. It was one of
the things that I had mentioned tohim is that we had been trying for
a couple of years to get Kevinon the show because he is your favorite

(01:08:12):
batman for your for your birthday.And and when when I first was told
by um, I guess his hisassistant, that he because we had tried
and we were trying to find adate, and then she said, you
know, Kevin's no longer going tobe taking um, you know, appearances
or bookings for a little while.I kind of knew that that something was

(01:08:34):
up because he was always so gracious, so wonderful. He was on so
many wonderful you know, podcasts andthings like that, but but really just
an incredib was the man. Yeah, And and let me just add one
thing that he doesn't get enough creditfor, and that is that it's not
just how he created the definitive voiceof Batman. He also fully understood and

(01:08:58):
then created the definitive voice of BruceWayne. Yeah yeah, and that a
lot of times gets lost in theglitzy shadow of Batman, but it is
just as important. Yeah, that'sfair. As as Tim Burton, you
know, discovered that the story,the true story, at least on film,
is the story of Bruce Wayne,because you can't. I mean,
as much as I would love tohave Batman on screen just the whole time,

(01:09:23):
just a video of Batman, youdo have to develop the character story
arc. I get it. Yeah, yeah, And all of those those
wonderful storylines with in Batman, theanimated series with Vicky Vale and all that
stuff, especially struggling Yea, howto tell her that? That was so
incredible, I think as a kid, because when you're seeing one of your

(01:09:44):
heroes that's struggling with a secret thatthey have and also is the same thing
because we we did things that wedidn't want to tell our parents or whatever,
and there was this connection that youcould make with, Oh, my
heroes are going through this same thingand yet finding ways to to overcome it
and to work through and that's whyI think comic books are just such a
wonderful meeting. Well, you yousaid you're continuing a class on comics you

(01:10:04):
partner with the Smithsonian and something you'vedone with stan Lee and with your son
David. Can you tell us aboutthat edX course that you offer. Oh,
this is this is great? Um, we did it. God,
it must be ten years ago.I'm thinking, no, I can't be
that at all. Well, theSmithsonian Institution came to me and said we

(01:10:24):
would like to develop the first everonline course on comic book superheroes. And
I designed the course, and Isplit it up into three and I reached
out to stan Lee and I said, Stan, I'd like to do forties
like nineteen thirty eight through the seventieswith you, and then we'll let my

(01:10:48):
son David take the eighties and onand and stan agreed. So the three
of us teach this course. Ithink it's seventeen lessons, and I got
a chance to spend a lot oftime drawing anecdotes out of stand which were
wonderful, really wonderful. The courseis available now through edX eed X.

(01:11:10):
It's called Rise of the Superheroes,and it's being offered again, and we've
had hundreds of thousands of students signup for it from all around the world.
And it's free. It's absolutely free. So if it's something you'd be
interested in taking a look at,I think you would get a lot out
of it. And it is hopefullyfun and entertaining. And as you watch

(01:11:34):
it and you hear whether it's thelectures, the discussions, the conversations,
not once was there a script ora que card. Everything comes out of
the top of everyone's heads and itmade it kind of special. Well,
we'll have links to that stuff inthe show notes. Michael. We thank
you so much for the time.We end all of our interviews with a

(01:11:57):
quick rapid fire question segment, Soif you're game, if you've got a
couple of minutes, we would loveto do it with you. This is
a segment we call controlled rowdiness.It is, like I said, just
a series of rapid fire questions.You can answer them with a short or
as long a response as you wouldlike. To expect nothing from us by
way of reply or response after weask him, and to get us go
on, I'm gonna send it overto General Greece, all right, Michael

(01:12:19):
opening scene, we have a tightrope tied over Niagara Falls. I'm trying
to figure out how how it staysup. Yeah, I guess it's tied
up, isn't it. Yeah,And we see Batman and the Shadow sparring
over it. My question is whowins. That's a great question. I

(01:12:43):
think that because of the utility belt, that gives Batman an advantage, but
the Shadow has another advantage. Hecan take his forty five and kill you.
So I think what this question setsup is exactly the same scene as

(01:13:08):
in Raiders of the Lost Arc whenyou got the guy with the scimitars,
Indiana Jones standing there with his whipand he just whips out the gun and
shoots yeah, and a very embarras. Yeah. And by the way,
my wife and I saw the newIndiana Jones movie last night, which we
loved. Nice. I don't wantto I don't want to spoil it.

(01:13:29):
But if you're a fan of Raiders, there's a couple of there's a couple
of great moments. Well, weare fans of looking looking forward to that,
all right. So you say inyour book that going to led Zeppelin
was not your favorite concert of alltime, which to me sounds like anathema.
So what was your favorite concert ofall time? The Doors Um I
was second row Aisle. I wasthere with my high school French teacher who

(01:13:57):
looked exactly like Linda Carter and couldquote my mentors. Stanley Enuff said,
So, Jim Morrison was one ofmy gods. I was so into the
Doors at that point in time.This was right after the incident in Miami

(01:14:19):
where he was arrested and the copswere all over the place at Asbury Park
Convention Hall on the boardwalk, justwaiting for him to say or do the
wrong thing. And then we hitcurfew and they ordered the show closed down,
and Morrison and Raymond's that they keptgoing, and then they finally shut

(01:14:39):
the lights out, and it wasa whole thing and everybody was up on
their chairs. If Jim Morrison itsaid all right, throw your chairs,
go out and overturn cart whatever hewould have said, I think the whole
crowd would have done. That wasan amazing, amazing night. But I
also saw Cream's farewell concert at MadisonSquare Garden Jimmy Hendri, I saw Janis

(01:15:00):
Joplin and stayed for both shows.I stood at her feet while she was
performing. Wow. I was atthe concert for Bangladesh. I was at
the garden party that Ricky Nelson wrotea song about. I took my family
to England for the concert for Georgewhen George passed away. But man,
I didn't except for Elvis and thefull Beatles in concert, I never missed

(01:15:27):
anything. Wow. Wow. AndI saw Eric Clapton and every incarnation he's
ever been in. That's pretty coolbecause there are several of those. Oh
yeah, yeah, I haven't seenMetallica has actually seen him in Bellanium,
Bonnie and Friends. I am justnow finding out about Delaney and Bonnie and
Friends now that you've just said it. I've never I've never known of that

(01:15:49):
iteration. The Dominoes I'm very familiarwith obviously, the stuff he did with
Cream has solo stuff that's so wildthat you get to see him in every
blind faith. Yeah, I've heardof them, but I couldn't think of
his song or there's off the topof my head. Now I feel like
I don't know enough about Eric Clapton. Yeah, yeah, you do it
deeper, Guve, that's for sure. Yeah, yeah, uh. You

(01:16:09):
mentioned that Joker, which we completelyagree that was correct. The Joker is
the greatest comic book villain of alltime? Who is the second? The
second greatest comic book villain of alltime? I'm going to call it a
tie. I'm gonna say Doctor Doom, the Red Skull and Catwoman? Interesting?

(01:16:34):
How is Catwoman? Because again withthe with the Batman has no power,
Catwoman doesn't either with Doctor Doom.What do you think puts her in
the in the tie? She isa woman, she is a powerful woman,

(01:16:56):
She's a complex woman. She's notevil, but she certainly puts herself
first and she's got it cannot bedenied. There is this romantic entanglement with
Batman, and you have these forcesthat come together in this relationship physically,
emotionally, mentally, going back tothe core, defining elements of what makes

(01:17:27):
Bruce Wayne Bruce Wayne, and whatmakes Selena Kyle Selina Kyle, and how
they clash and where they mesh.This is as complex stuff as the eternal
dance between Batman and Joker. AndI could do a dissertation on each of
these, and books have been written. Travis Langley has done some great books

(01:17:47):
about psychologically Batman and Joker, butthe complexity of that, and then you
add in the sexuality layer of that, and and how it impacts him in
his decisions, you know those Insome of those early adventures, Robin's going
like, what the what the hellhappened? Here? It? What mean

(01:18:09):
you? You tripped me on purpose? Yeah? Yeah, all that stuff.
Robin was jealous, so um yeah, I think that's why. Well,
our our last question is what isthe Batman's story that you think the
world needs the most right now?Knight of the Reaper? Are you guys

(01:18:39):
familiar with that? That is?I believe that's your number one on your
list of twenty? Is that correct? Is my number one? Okay,
that's the greatest Batman's story ever writtenin comics Um Detective Comics four thirty nine,
he said, geekily, yeah,and I gave that comic to Tim
Burton, and the opening of Batmannineteen eighty nine you can see direct inspiration

(01:19:03):
from that story. I hate tospoil it for anyone, so let me
simply say, without talking about theending of that story, in that entire
issue, Bruce Wayne or Batman doesnot he does not speak one word,
really, and yet it is themost emotionally impactful Batman story ever written in

(01:19:28):
Night of the Reaper, which camelater and is my number two most favorite
Batman's comic book story. It dealswith anti semitism and bigotry and prejudice in
a very impactful way. And Ithink in this day and age, with

(01:19:56):
a polarized world, a polarized country, Pandora's box having been opened in the
last few years, and once they'retopened, it's hard to put it back
in and what a lot of peopleof all walks of life, religions,
creeds, sexual identity, gender havehad to go through. I think the

(01:20:23):
story at this moment in time isthe most important Batman story right on Night
of the Reaper. Yeah, definitivelyfrom Batman's Batman, Michael, thank you
so much for being on the show. Tell our audience where it is that
they can find you if they wantto follow you on social media, because
you're You're an absolutely wonderful follow soencouraging and so much fun to watch the

(01:20:44):
stuff that you post. I appreciatethat. Yeah, I try to do
behind the scenes stuff, fun stuff, historic stuff, kind of mix it
all up. You can find meon Instagram, you can find me on
Facebook. And it took both ofmy kids and all my grandkids to pull
me out of my comfort zone andget me onto those two. So don't
don't talk to me about TikTok orTwitter, but you will find but you

(01:21:09):
will find my presence on Instagram andFacebook. Well, thank you. It's
a lot of fun. Absolutely blast. We'd love to have you on again
sometime. Thanks so much, man, Thanks a lot. This was really
fun. You know, a lotof times I speak to people who are
too mainstream and don't know enough aboutthis stuff when we get into discussions.

(01:21:29):
You guys are thick and thin.It's in your blood, and I just
love having an opportunity to talk withfolks like you. Thank you, Michael
freaking Youth. Yeah, how aboutthat, dude. I am so blown
away that you came on our littleshow. Yeah, and he had so

(01:21:50):
many interesting things to say that there'sjust there was not enough time now and
what a great like we didn't evenget into some of the stuff that he
told, like at the very beginningwhen he first comes on, he has
a ton of ongoing projects that wecan't talk about and that he could only
give us like one or two linesentences from so we were like, all
right, we're gonna avoid some ofthose because we know that we're not gonna

(01:22:13):
we're not gonna get a lot inby way of a replier response. And
we just talked about Batman nineteen eightynine. So before he comes on,
he talks to us about this ringthat he's wearing, right, and you
can see it in the episode ifyou're if you watch it on YouTube,
you can see the ring in theepisode. It was his grandfather's ring.
He gave it to his father,his father gave it to Michael. That

(01:22:34):
is the ring that inspired the entireNational Treasure series because it's a Masonic ring
from from the early nineteen I thinkhe said it was from nineteen seventeen.
But that was what inspired all ofNational Treasure. And we didn't even get
to touch the surface of No,didn't any of it treasure at all.
Oh my gosh, we didn't talk. I really want to maybe maybe next

(01:22:58):
time. Yeah, the Batman,you know, he mentions the difference between
Batman and the Batman and then themovie that comes out and what was that
two twenty twenty two, Yeah,yeah, yeah, um yeah. Last
year, Matt Reeves when Robert PattinSenson. Yep, uh, what do
they call him Pat Pattinson now Patpat Fleck? No, it doesn't.
Uh. I think that movie wasthe most true to form to the comics.

(01:23:25):
I believe he does too. SoI really want to talk about,
you know, what it felt liketo have made this this huge successful series
of movies and TV shows and allthe stuff with Batman and then really culminating
with probably the most true to formof the of the movies. Yeah,
original, how do you comics?How do you in? And I mean

(01:23:45):
and the guy talked to us foran hour and a half, Yeah,
I know. How do you cramin fifty years of working on Batman films
into that? Like when he gaveus his story, Yeah, when he
gave us the story of how hehe acquired the rights and how he fell
in love with Batman. It's great. And that's why, you know,
we didn't get it really a chanceto talk to him about the book.
They're both here, The Boy WhoLoved Batman and Batman's Batman, both by

(01:24:09):
Michael Uslin. They are his memoirs. They go way more in depth than
too telling these stories. Not onlyare the book's phenomenal reads and filled with
all kinds of pictures, which Ilove, love a good picture book,
but the pictures that they're filled withare you know the things. When he

(01:24:29):
went on a tour of DC ComicStudios when he was like twelve years old,
and they just gave him some originals, like full pages of Superman that
they were just going to do youknow whatever with, But when kids came
on tour, they would give themthose original pages that would be shrunk down
and used to print the original artwork. They just gave him some of it
and he got it autographed by youknow those guys. When he was talking

(01:24:54):
with you know, Bill Finger atthe very first comic con, well,
he had met Bill Finger a fewyears earlier, and he got to meet
him and talk to him, andhe has this whole thing about like okay,
so so Bob Kane actually created Batmanand it started off as Birdman.
Well Bill Finger was the guy whoturned Birdman to Batman. That was like,
hey, we got to make himdark and broody and all then and

(01:25:14):
started to create the Rogues Gallery andall of this just incredible pieces of history
that he was on the forefront of. And we, like I said,
we couldn't even scratch the surface ofit. But in the books, the
books are so great, and ifyou listen to the audio books, if
you get a library app, likeSweet Young Camden has just done. Got

(01:25:36):
a library card, got onto thelibrary app. Cloud Library, Yeah,
Cloud Library, libby Hoopla, Ithink are the big ones on Hoopla.
Both of his books are on thereif you want to listen on the library
ap. They're also on Audible,and he reads the books. He's the
one that's doing the audio versions ofthe books, so when he's telling the
stories, it's exactly like what youjust heard him. And that's why I

(01:25:59):
think I was so sucked, LikeI didn't say a word during so much
of that except for like, wow, it's the story that I've always wanted
to hear. Yeah, it isthe is the that didn't know existed.
But it was the one man crusadeto make Batman, of all people,
the one man crusade to make Batman. And of course it wasn't exactly one
man, but it kind of was. I mean, yeah, he got
the opportunity to compromise and cave alittle bit, and he decided not to

(01:26:21):
that he wanted to make the filmthat he's dreamed about his whole life,
which is what has influenced me probablythe most. Yeah, and he talks
he goes in depth in the booksabout um talking with the creators of Batman
begins and how he wanted to dothat. I was really surprised that he

(01:26:41):
didn't say Race was the great becausehe talks a lot about Rachel gul Well.
It was funny because because we whenwe asked the villain question, Yeah,
we had we had this conversation aboutwho the greatest villains were. Ye,
and we we both kind of werelike Joker as one doctor and doctor
doom is never too. And immediatelyhe's like after doing yes, yeah,
like this is this is perfect,this is what um. You know.

(01:27:03):
It's kind of that affirmation that wewere right. You know, we know
some stuff about comic books too,all right, Batman agreed with us.
Yeah, and that dude, it'ssuch a his entire story is so cool.
We didn't get to talk to himabout this. In twenty twenty five,
this is being turned or this willrelease hopefully as a Broadway production of

(01:27:27):
the Boy Who Loved Batman, wherethey're going to take his memoirs and turn
it into to a story that willbe told on Broadway because it is unbelievable.
And some of the things he didn'the didn't mention because we didn't get
to get into him. So therewere rules that were created after this guy's
book, right, that kind ofruins comic books, And then the Comic
Book Censorship Association starts in there,like censoring work can be put in there,

(01:27:48):
you can't talk about drugs, youcan't do any of this stuff.
Well, one of the things thatthey said you couldn't do is no walking
dead zombies. Solomon Grundy like thosetype of characters. They're out, you
can't do that that type of stuffanymore, but they still had. Casper
with a friendly goes, so he'swriting into DC about the Specter. He
wants the Specter back, which isthis ghost detective, and they're like,
we can't do it. And everyday he's writing letters to the executives at

(01:28:14):
DC, like I wonder if theyget him into the and they're like we
we like, we recognize this kid'sname because he's been whipping us with letters
for years and years. So thestory goes that he continues to write in
all these things he wants to seethe Specter back and they're like, we
can't do it, and he's thenext day, well, I want to
see the Spector back, and again, you know, we can't do it.
And he goes, well, theytold us we can't do this,

(01:28:35):
and he goes well. Eventually hecomes up with the argument Casper is a
ghost. He's technically, you know, in violation of this rule. They're
not walking dead, they're ghosts.He gets a letter back a few weeks
later and it says, hey,kid, this the Specter's coming back and
it's thanks to you. He's likethirteen at the time, right. He

(01:28:59):
writes this comic bookstory, sends itto a legit artist in La. He's
like, Alexia Hamilton's, yeah,it's unbelievable. So he writes this story
about a comic. He creates hiscomic book about a character called the Cricket.
He sends the story to a guyin LA who's an animator. The
guy's gonna he's gonna illustrate it.He's gonna do all this stuff and he's
like, hey, this is incredible. He goes, I need a picture
of you, and he sends hima picture of himself from the school pictures

(01:29:24):
he's thirteen, and then he neverhears from the guy again, like yeah,
no, this isn't gonna work,you're a child. But the whole
time He's been able to do this, this guy, Michael's story, mister
Yuselin's story is so incredible, andit revolves so much about his love for
the Batman and comics and finding theirplace in the mythology of today and the

(01:29:46):
guy's on tattoine Suns talk about thatoften absolutely unreal, like just blows me
away and so happy birthday, man, I think, yeah, so it
was. It was awesome. Yeah, I loved every second. I wasn't
ready for it to be over.Yeah. Uh, Batman is my favorite

(01:30:09):
and I got to meet Batman's Batman. What do you think about the Kevin
Conroy story. Yeah, it wasawesome. It was all awesome. That's
that Kevin Conroy. H I meanthat was kind of hard to hear,
you know, because it was hewas clearly trying to get impart some some

(01:30:29):
wisdom and he knew who time wascoming up and that was clearly in a
very emotional story. But so sogreat. I mean, Kevin Conroy is
the goat and and that's what youwhen you you talk. This is one
of the things that that Henry cavillhas said that I think has endeared him
the most too comic book fans isthat when you are one of these characters,

(01:30:55):
whether it's in the animation, whetherit's on screen, whether you know,
on the silver screen in movies oron the small screen, when you
are one of these characters, youare that too kids. Yeah, and
you are that to the fans.And so you have to be kind and
gracious and all of those things.And by all accounts, Kevin Conroy he

(01:31:15):
was that smiles more and and Iwill say so is Michael Uselin. Yeah,
because he came on our our littlepopcorn fart of a show, a
little popcorn yeah and uh and yeah, but just talk to us about Batman.
But he he also embodies everything thatwe want out of our comic book

(01:31:40):
creators, is that he he heloves the fans. He wants to be
a positive force in the world anda positive force in the world for comic
books, which is his love,the love of his life. Aside from
aside from this as useless, yeah, aside from Nancy. You know,
he mentioned something about um the Reapercome, which is one of the reasons

(01:32:00):
he thinks it needs to be rightnow. He talks about this in in
his book. You know, theywere not so far removed from World War
Two when he started this whole process. He's going to law school in Indiana,
his wife, they've been married fora few months. His wife is
going to nursing school. One ofthe greatest stories in this entire book is

(01:32:23):
them having this conversation about, like, we don't get to see each other
like passing ships in the night.We need to determine, you know,
we don't have kids. Are wegoing to make this work or is this
going to be over? And thedetermination that they had in order to stick
with a commitment that they had tobe married, persevering through that in order
to see these dreams be accomplished asincredible. He also tells a story about

(01:32:45):
Nancy Becomes like the head nurse atare sort of like the spokesperson for this
group of nurses. They're talking abouthow to treat Jewish people, and they're
like, well, you got tohave two sets of plates because like they
won't eat on unclean dishes, blahblah bla. So she starts to tell
me. She's like, listen thatnot all of this applies. I'm Jewish.
Let me talk to you a littlebit about this. The girls start

(01:33:08):
talking at the table, and now, mind you, like at this point
we're in the seventies, right,But these are kids who grew up in
families that their their dads, theiruncles were fighting in World War Two.
So they sit down with Nancy.These other girls are talking and they ask
Nancy's like, you know, whatwhat's going on? And they ask her,

(01:33:30):
They're like, hey, can wesee your horns? And and it's
this really really thought. So thisno, it was legit, Like they
didn't know whether or not that wasa thing. And you have all of
this like propaganda and propaganda stuff thatwas was put out there for so long,

(01:33:51):
and it's impolite to ask. Andthey didn't know whether or not they
knew a Jewish person anywhere in theirlives. And and so that's what she
that's what she gets asked. Andshe pulls back her hair and there's no
horns, and it, you know, it blows their mind opens up a
new thing of conversation. And sowhen we think about those types of things,

(01:34:13):
can you know, our comic bookstory is still relevant for helping you
know, over overcome that stuff.Like the reason that he talks about this
is not um it's not virtue signaling. It's not because he's trying to to
put himself in in a particular lightone way or the other for his you
know, um own personal gain orfor cultural cloud or whatever. It's because

(01:34:35):
this is the stuff that they livethrough. That he didn't just get prejudiced
because they you know, he wasa boy that liked comic books under time
where they weren't popular. Um,he didn't just get prejudiced because he was
going to a very serious law schooland he wanted to study entertainment law.
Or he's this kid that had thisincredible dream. Like they experienced some of
this stuff firsthand, the racial prejudice, the heat that he that he actually

(01:34:58):
experienced, like his somebody literally andseriously asked his wife if she had horns
because that's what they had heard aboutabout Jewish people. And not only does
he maintain this and their family maintainthis incredibly positive attitude, but they're creating
stories that help people of all agesto bridge the gap to learn good life

(01:35:20):
and moral lessons. And that areso much fun and reading that stuff in
the memoirs, and that's why Ican't recommend this stuff to you highly enough,
especially when you listen to the audiobooks. Hearing him tell those stories in
his own voice is absolutely incredible.And as much as I wish we would

(01:35:40):
have been able to get Kevin Conroyon, you know, for you m
me too, I think that Ican't think of anybody better for our show
or that represents comic bookdom as awhole better than Michael Euslin. As I
agree, Man, it was giggedyep. So thank you guys for watching

(01:36:02):
and listen to make sure you checkout all the stuff and the show notes.
Wished Big Dan a happy birthday becausehe is thirty eight, which,
according to Dennis, means you areold now. Yeah, when you're thirty
seven. Yeah, across thirty seven. You're not old, across the threshold.
And even though we didn't know youwere called Dennis, you've made it.
You've made it seven. I'm thirtyeight. I am old. You

(01:36:25):
am you am old. Even ina macro syndilistic commune that chooses new executive
officers, we will go to thewhole thing but thank you guys for watching
listen. To make sure you checkout links to all Michael stuff in the
show notes, the edex class,the books, um, the audiobooks,
and please go check him out onon Facebook and Instagram. He's such a

(01:36:46):
fun follow because he's a really,really great and ecstatic granddad and he posts
all of the things from comic bookslike Batman's especially Batman, all the stuff
that's no good. There's a millionpictures of him with the Batmobile, him
in his great period of Battmobile andeverything. So thank you all for watching

(01:37:08):
listen, and make sure you checkout all the awesome podcast on Christian Nerd
HQ. Just stay her Keith Dannonand we'll see you. Hi. This
is Michael Yuslin. I'm the originatorand executive producer of the Batman movie franchise.
And this is the reason you shouldnever listen to the Reverend and the Reprobate.

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Batman, Comic Books, and The Movie Biz | Michael E. Uslan | Reverend and the Reprobate Podcast

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Batman, Comic Books, and The Movie Biz | Michael E. Uslan | Reverend and the Reprobate Podcast