Growing Up Hinn and Knowing the Spirit | Costi Hinn | Reverend and the Reprobate Podcast

The Reverend and Reprobate (Brolen Jourdan, Danley in his search for Kyle became his stall-mate for the week) sit down with pastor, apologist and author Costi Hinn!

Costi talks to the guys about his upbringing and when he truly met God. In his new book "Knowing the Spirit" Costi talks about the importance of knowing who the Holy Spirit is and what His work is in our lives.

Get Knowing the Spirit: http://bit.ly/3EDkRD3

Check out more from Costi:

https://www.forthegospel.org/
Instgram: https://www.instagram.com/costiwhinn
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/costiwhinn/


Rev and Rep Linktr.ee (all the show links can be found below) https://linktr.ee/revreppodcast

Make sure to check out all the amazing shows that are part of the Christian Nerd HQ network! Christian Nerds Unite: https://apple.co/438CjcI
Fangirling Over Jesus: https://apple.co/41NovU5
Tatooine Sons: https://apple.co/3IndbXX
Speaking Nerdy: https://apple.co/3MCgtsE

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi guys, Ricky Pope here fromthe Christian r Nite Podcast. On the
show, we dive deep into ournerdy fandoms and look at them through the
lens of our faith by chatting withChristian content creators and experts who love comics,
science, video games, media,sci fi and fantasy, discovering how
their faith shapes their creative work andtheir lives. You can listen on your

(00:23):
favorite podcast app or find links toeverything at Christian rsnit dot com. Hey,
this is Kosti Hinn. I amthe pastor of Shepherd's House Bible Church
and the founder for the Gospel.I wrote a book called Knowing the Spirit
that I think you should read,and my preferred pronouns are reverend and reprobate.
Now here is one of the mainreasons why you should never listen to

(00:46):
the Reverend and Reprobate podcast is isthey will likely ask you about aliens at
the end and things just get weird. But other than that, great theology,
great show, great guys, andI hope that you enjoy episode.
Hosts of forestne Forrest Kyle Man,I'm Jay Warner Wallace, Heara Davis.
This is Davy Business for Kerry Pomroli. This is Mark war this is even

(01:08):
Cole, this is glam Morgan misGraham Barker, the fifth GP. And
this is why you should never ever, never, never, never never.
How I got suckered in. I'mso embarrassed about your You're wasting your time.
You got better things to do.Never lessen loves Darling Yummy and the
Ramper Bay say everybody, welcome tothe Reverend and the Reperbay to show about

(01:29):
two best buds interviewing people they haveno business talking to you. Today is
no exception. My name is LucasFinger and I'm a real life reverend and
here with me, boy, lookat for today, Dan filling in for
the very sick Dan Gibson as heis dealing with Kyle there and partnering stalls
with their bathroom issues. We've gota friend of the show, Brolan Jordan,

(01:52):
who's joined us. What's going on, Brolin? That's Jordan? Oh
Jordan, old man? Or isit Jarradin? Anti French already? Well
tracking you know, World War Twokind of made me anti French. Jordan.
Uh. Jordan is the proprietor ofa Liberation coffee co which you will
see us sporting these uh these cups. There we go this camera from from

(02:15):
time to time. You you're alsofor people who have listened to the show.
You're also our our connection with thefabulously talented Dave Trosco. Oh yes,
yeah, you hooked us up withpresent Mike. Oh yeah, so
you guys have known each other foryears, right, Yes, I forget

(02:36):
how many four? I think four, okay, something like that, so
some years. Yes, yeah,so you you met Present Mike around the
time you met Reverend Pinkard sometime inthat in that same same time. Which
one of us is cooler? It'sthe podcast over you. But I don't
know how many enemies. If you'vedone sir zero today, I'll just put

(03:00):
it like zero ever but also zerotoday. It makes it sound like it's
a little a little more definitive.Yeah, so Dave's way cooler than I
am. Zebrolan Is is filling inthe hot seat today as we interview costly
hand. Now. One of thereasons I wanted you to come on it,
to do this interview with me firstis because we talk a lot of

(03:21):
theology, you and I do,and in my office or in your coffee
shop where we we are able toget together. We have had a lot
of discussions on the the use,abuse and manipulation that surrounds the words Holy
Spirit and what that has meant inour ministry backgrounds and the church backgrounds and

(03:43):
things that we grew up in.And we're both people who started off a
little bit as skeptics of Costly Handas we start to hear the hand name,
you know, being being thrown aroundand now both I think admire would
be certainly an appropriate term to describeit. And we've gotten to read his

(04:05):
newest book, Knowing the Spirit justa little bit, and so today in
our interview, we do get tosit down with Costi Hen and talk to
him about who the Holy Spirit is, why it's important that we refer to
the Holy Spirit as a he andnot an it. We talk to him
a little bit about why the HolySpirit participation in worship is necessary, but

(04:30):
also how we should interact with himin that setting. And most importantly,
especially for cal Jamison, we findout whether or not the Nephelium are aliens,
and Costly Hen gives us a definitiveanswer. You guys, thanks for
watching. To make sure to likesubscribe ding a little bill, give us
a review on Apple podcast to letus know what you think, and you

(04:56):
stay up today on all of ourprograms. YadA, YadA, YadA,
without any further Ado Brolin on thesesweet clean air waves. Today we have
maybe one of the most influential pastors, apologists people speaking about discernment. He's
a bestselling author, he's a podcasthost, and he is the pastor of

(05:17):
the Shepherd's House Bible Church in Arizona. He's better looking than us, he's
smarter than us, and he's alreadyproven in the pre interview he's funnier than
us. It's the wonderfully talented,the very handsome, costly handlet's going on,
dude, what's up? And theneveryone can look. Now, as
I'm in study day mode on aThursday, I've got college ministry tonight.
They're making me preach. So II went in the cave, the study

(05:42):
cave this morning five thirty am,hat for the Gospel T shirt and I
think I brushed my teeth. Idon't know, but it was about getting
my work done today and studying andnot coming out of the cave. So
it's now in the aft late afternoonhere we are. I would not say
I'm more handsome at all. Youare. You've taken that prize with the

(06:04):
golden locks that owen Strand would sayhe'd cut. But if he met you
in person, he'd probably wouldn't messwith you. He'd probably give me.
What did they say in a blazingsaddles, here's a laurel and hardy handshake
and that's ah, that's what we'reroll with. Well man, I'm so
excited that you're on the show.I want to thank you again for coming
on. We've we've found out overthe course of the last couple of years,

(06:27):
as we've gotten the opportunity to interviewsome authors and some apologists, we
found out that a lot of ouraudience, even though we may be really
familiar with them as being in ministry, there's a lot of people in our
audience that don't know your story oryour backstory. Because so, can you
kind of give us like a highlevel of your your testimony over the last
you know, several years, andwhy we should listen to you as an

(06:49):
author of Good Grief several books now, but but the one we're talking about
today, which I'm most excited about, is knowing the spirit. Yeah,
I mean we can get to whyyou should listen to me. I think
that's really optional for sure, fromthe standpoint of salvation. About ten years
ago, I was in ministry.I was a pastor, and I had

(07:12):
come out of but grew up insorry, I should say, grew up
in the Prosperity Gospel. So mylast name is him. My uncle Benny
hen my dad was in this fordecades. His whole ministry church planted in
it U you know, faith healing, the Word of Faith movement, all
the name it and claimate stuff.So right now, if you were to
say, okay, give us amenu. Like the modern day guys that

(07:36):
you'd be hanging with or rolling withor consider friends if you were still in
that world, this will just tellyou the belief system I was in.
Michael Todd, who's in Tulsa.He's like dresses like lebron and rolls in
on the maserati's and the tesla's andpreaches a lot of weird stuff that's not
biblical. Todd White, who's kindof in the Dallas Fort Worth area.

(08:00):
Another guy named Michael Kuliano's actually mightbe married. My cousin and his brother
married my sister, So they're likemy brother in laws. And he's got
Jesus Image ministries down in Florida.Bethel would be another one. That whole
movement was what I was in,and but we were pretty wild. I
mean, my uncle's lifestyle and hisflamboyant charisma was I think partially entertaining for

(08:26):
a lot of people, but menmillions, and I would say hundreds of
millions of people around the world wereswooned by him and taken in. We
flew on private planes, stayed inthe nicest hotels in the world, eight
at the nice restaurants in every city. Very much high life, they think
at the peak of the ministry andtheir head offices. One of their HQ
offices were in Grapevine over there inTexas. They were raking in like between

(08:50):
eighty and one hundred million dollars ayear, all on donations, selling the
idea that if you have enough faithand if you declare and decrease certain things,
and if you obey the anointed leaders, that God would bless you would
make you healthy, wealthy, happy. So I was in all that,
grew up in it, complete immersion, and I've often described it as a

(09:13):
mixture between the royal family and themafia. Royal family because the wealth,
and then mafia because loyalty. Wewere very The family's Middle Eastern and my
mom's Canadian. She's as white asyou can get. But I get this
like Arab beard because my father's Palestinian. That family dynamic means loyal tight.

(09:33):
So even if your father, yourmother, your uncle, whoever is lying,
scamming, deceiving, living a lifestylethat is completely reprobate in many different
ways, you never talk about themor go against them. Well, Jesus
saved me. And had he savedme and made me an investment banker or

(09:54):
a coach or gave me any otherjob, I wouldn't be writing these books.
And I would just call my familymembers heretics at Thanksgiving and tell them
I'm praying for them, and I'dgo on my way to my Bible church
or FBC where you are. Buthe made me a pastor and in that

(10:18):
after salvation, and I wrote abook about it called God Greed and the
Prosperity Gospel, mainly so that Iwould stop having to answer the question like
wait, your last name is Hin, all right? Why are you in
our Baptist Church speaking and not gettingrun out of town. It's like,
here's a book, please read this. First. I'm we're a family.
That's kind of the idea there.And then I taught against the prosperity Gospel

(10:39):
pretty heavily because I was in it. I had this deep burden. Then
Jesus was saving people left and right, not just me, And so we
did the American Gospel documentary, anda lot of that was an effort to
push back against darkness and against deception. And because I'm a pastor, I've
really got two voices. Got tocall the sheep and care for the sheep,

(11:01):
and I've got to call out thewolves and push them back. And
so those two jobs, to preachtruth and refew error have landed me in
this position where I write and wehave for the Gospel, which is a
media ministry where we put out videosand teaching and stuff like that. But
that's sort of the quick flyover.Lots of drama, lots of rabbit trails
in that, but overall leading tonow, I've written on the prosperity Gospel

(11:26):
and the true Gospel, which that'sthe most important thing. To emphasize the
truth I've written a book called MoreThan a Healer, which is about Jesus
and how he's more than just ahealer. So many people go to him
like give me this, give methat. Well, there's all these other
incredible, beautiful attributes about the Lordthat we should relish in. So I
wrote a book on that that wouldhelp people, I think if they were

(11:48):
in that world, but also justsuffering and going through things. And then
this book called Knowing the Spirit,is about the Holy Spirit's work and who
he is, what he does,how he transforms our lives is because that
tends to be the work of theSpirit tends to be the most what I
would say twisted or abused. Eventhough you can't literally abuse the Holy Spirit,

(12:09):
but we abuse people, abuse hiswork, and misrepresent him. So,
besides the Gospel and really the personof Christ, I think the Holy
Spirit gets some of the worst prin the Christian world. In the whole
world, Jesus for sure, becausefalse religions have their versions of Jesus.
He is terrible pr everywhere, Butin the Christian world, the evangelical professing

(12:33):
Christian world, the Holy Spirit's gotto be getting the worst of it.
It just gross misrepresentations across the board, and just ignorance. Not even picking
on the twisters and manipulators, butjust generally people have no clue what to
do with him, and so Iwanted to write a book to help people
on that topic. I really lovethe fact that you're calling the Holy Spirit

(12:56):
him because so often, and youaddress this the very beginning of knowing the
Spirit is we have a lot oftimes in like Protestant or mainline conservative Evangelical
churches, right, we got toput all of the qualifiers in front of
everything to make sure we know whowe're talking about, right. But in
those settings, we have almost beenconditioned either to not talk about the Holy

(13:22):
Spirit or to depersonalize him and referto the Holy Spirit as it in the
sense that like God will send hisHoly Spirit and it will do this in
your life, or it will giveyou whatever Your very beginning of your book
starts with the idea that we needto repersonalize the Holy Spirit. Why is
that such an important thing in understandingwho the Spirit is? Well? Because

(13:46):
in my research for the book,and a lot of the reason I wrote
the book comes from seeing certain thingsonline, talking to different Christian leaders,
educators and pastors and then saying,oh man, this is just rampant.
I want to research more. Thismight be a book if I if the
Lord allows me to write another one. And so I saw this study put

(14:09):
out by Arizona Christian University. They'rein my backyard out this way in the
Phoenix area, and they put outthis study. They did this huge survey
and all this research and found thatfifty eight percent of people did not believe
the Holy Spirit was God. Butthey're professing Christians. And I'm like,
are you kidding me? How doyou profess Christianity and get the Trinity wrong?

(14:31):
How do you say, well,the Father yeah, Jesus, yeah,
I'm not really sure what to dowith the Holy Spirit. That's crazy.
So I started doing more research andthere were a number of studies to
put out. I don't I think, I know League in the Ear put
theirs out. I don't know ifthat was published by Life Way or like
in you know, tandem with LifeWay. But all of these organizations had
their surveys and the statistics are alarmingthat people who profess to be Christians don't

(14:58):
know what to believe. They're notsure if he's a person. There's a
lot of people I'm sure if he'sGod, is he just the spirit of
Christ? Is he an expression ofthe other two members of the Godhead?
What do we do with him?And then you pair that with the abusive
presentations or the manipulative, twisted presentationsof him. And you know, with

(15:22):
some of these ministries and churches,we've seen this for years. It's gone
on for a long time. Itdoesn't mean we ever stop dealing with it.
But you know, like Bethel Churchand Reading have these fire tunnels and
they have all sorts of other thingsgoing on in their services. We did
a video recently for the Gospel calledSlain in the Spirit, and we were
running some b roll of things thatare happening there. And those manifestations don't

(15:46):
look like what the Bible describes asbeing filled with the Holy Spirit, a
lack of control. There's people makingsounds, they're roaring, barking like dogs.
And there'll be people who say like, oh, come on, that's
such a caricature, or that's notfair, that's not accurate. Go look
at the footage. Go to oneof David Diga Hernandez's services. He's an

(16:06):
old friend of mine, I trulydo love him. I want him to
walk in the truth and preach thetruth. But he's made himself the understudy
of my uncle Benny, and he'sgot over a million subscribers on YouTube.
He's big in California, He's bigall over the world. Now. He
makes a huge point of emphasizing theHoly Spirit and is teaching his books,
his teaching series. He's all overthe next generation, reaching young people.

(16:30):
And that's this same old presentation ofthe Holy Spirit. It's just got skinnier
jeans and cooler outfits and modern music. But in the end, it's the
same thing again and again and again. And I'm not saying every Pentecostal or
person that's a charismatic or a continuationist, you know, blanketing them with some
railing accusation. I'm just saying Ithink we can do better across the whole

(16:53):
of the Body of Christ. Firstand foremost, Yeah, let's get some
control in our service is and inour theology when it comes to the spirit.
But also, you know, pickon us for a little bit.
I think in some of the morereformed Baptist circles, well, we don't
want to be accused of being acrazy charismatic, and so figuratively we've sort

(17:15):
of relegated the Holy Spirit. Notliterally because you can't, but just figuratively.
He's like awkwardly over in the corner, and we're kind of like,
you stay there. We're not reallysure what to do. You're raising your
hands, why are you? Areyou a charismatic? Have you like you're
going to ruin the service? Andother people that we're I think in our
camp we're not really always sure whatto do with him. Should we pray

(17:37):
to him? About him? Wedon't want to say too much about him
because he exists a glorified Christ,so let's not make a big deal because
that that's actually not good theology.And he sort of just gets a lot
of dismissal. And I talked toone guy, really really dear friend,
he's a pastor, and he said, I'll be honest with you, man,
I'm reformed to the core. Idon't think I pray about I don't.

(18:02):
I don't say much about the HolySpirit, not because I just don't
care. It's because it's such ahabit to to not really go there.
And so I think we have extremesthat we need to find some balance on
biblically and there's a lot of that, so I think a book like this
could be helpful. I would agree. You know, there's there's a pastor

(18:25):
in your area that had a veryfamous podcast that was recently published about him
kind of talking about his last churchthat he was at, and he had
mentioned that there he had moved awayfrom the Father's Son Holy Bible churches to
now he's a father, son andHoly Spirit, and that there's so much
more encouraging and that I think thatlabel has been one that has been accurate

(18:49):
to describe a lot of certainly thechurches that I that I grew up with.
You know, if we were goingto sing the docsologies praise Father's Son,
you know, we we sort ofskip over that because, like you
said, we don't know, wedon't know what to do. We're timid
about the gifts of the spirit andbeing planted in DFW. We are sort

(19:11):
of in the heart of New ApostolicReformation country, right. I remember when
when I was growing up, thebig church that was right down the road.
We used to pass it every daywhenever we were going back and forth
with Mom and daddy. Good stuffwas a word of faith. I mean
it was right off of the highway. It's now been turned into the Doctor

(19:33):
Pepper Star Center, so you cango skate on the very places you know
that all those things are happening.But all of that to say that,
like, we're kind of in thecenter of this place, and I think
in particularly like the people that arein the buckle of the Bible belt,
if you will. The Holy Spirithas almost become a bad word because we
don't know not only not what todo with the Holy Spirit, but we

(19:55):
also don't know enough about what webelieve with his work. We hear a
lot of talk about being filled withthe spirit and living the spirit filled life
and those kinds of things, andalso baptism is the Holy Spirit. And
you you do a great job oftalking specifically about what Jesus and John the
Baptist meant when they talked about thebaptism of the Holy Spirit as it relates

(20:15):
to what happens in the Book ofActs. How has your I guess,
the thoughts and theology on that changedfrom when you were a part of you
know, a more charismatic and faithhealing movement to now looking at you know,
what you see now as a morereformed Baptist. Yeah, so I

(20:38):
used to teach and believe that thebaptism of the Holy Spirit always accompanied tongues,
and early on, to be fair, this changed. But I need
to stayed accurately early on all theway up until maybe like early twenties.
All throughout my life. Early onwould believe, and we taught ardently that

(21:00):
if you don't speak in tongues,you are not filled with the spirit,
and what you need then is thebaptism of the Holy Spirit to make that
happen. It was a second classcitizen in christ approach. However, there
were those who would say, howbut you need to be careful because you
might not even be saved, Sothat would be the more open ended approach

(21:25):
in some of our circles. WhenI met my wife and we were dating,
one of the first questions from afamily member was is this gals spirit
filled? And I said, yep, yep, she is pretty sure,
and I knew what was coming.And the follow up was, yeah,

(21:45):
but has she been baptized in theHoly Spirit? Is she speak in tongues?
She pray in the spirit? COSTIand I had gone to college baseball
at Dallas Baptist University. I hadenough baptis theology under my belt to go
no, no, no, sheis baptized in the Holy Spirit. First
Is twelve thirteen says we're all baptized, one Spirit, one Lord, one.

(22:07):
So yeah, I had a littlebit of that. And you know
that that's an example of what webelieved and what some of those conversations were
like. Over the years, I'vestudied all of it. I've studied every
side there is to study. I'velooked at views by you know, doctor
Sam Storms and Grudam who would belike reformed charismatic or continuationist, or the

(22:30):
open but cautious continuationists like the MattChandler. I've looked at like the Mark
Dristol views where he's just i mean, he's kind of full blown charismatic now,
but he was like the classic reformedcharismatic cool guy. Yeah back in
the day. Yeah he was.He was like the bad boy of it
all. Yeah, Mark, thecussing pastor, I think is how Donald
Miller referred to him. Yes,and and that's that that could be a

(22:53):
second episode. I'm ready. I'mready, me too. Twenty minutes from
my church. Yeah, all ofthat. You know, I've looked at
all that, and then I've beendown the rabbit trails of you know BB
Warfield with the hard line cessationism whereit's like God does nothing, and looked

(23:14):
at classic sessationism. In looking atall of it and studying guys out of
DTS from the old days, youknow, Ryrie and ask Lewis Johnson and
Chris Well and all of them,there's like unanimous scholarship that the baptism of
the Holy Spirit is in fact beingbaptized into the body of Christ. It

(23:37):
is attached to conversion. Now somewill say yes, and speaking in tongues
can be this or can be that. But the idea that you could that
you would say, if you don'tspeak in tongues, you should question your
salvation or question the Spirit's work inyour life. We're treading on dangerous,
blasphemous, unorthodox territory there. Myviews have changed completely on that regard,

(24:04):
and in that looking at the Actsaccount and studying the patterns in the Book
of Acts, and looking at thehistorical picture and seeing what took place and
the uniqueness of those moments, andthen studying the gift of tongues and I
came to a position that I mean, many hold and I know some won't,
but that tongues are We're known languages, and so it wouldn't be the

(24:29):
ecstatic utterance that we see today.But in all of that, I think
we could find more unity if welet scripture drive the bus of our positions,
and in that even the filling ofthe Holy Spirit, not always making
blanket statements or associating it with someeuphoric encounter or some glory cloud or gold
dust falling from the rafters, orspeaking in tongues or feeling goosebumps. The

(24:52):
filling of the spirit, as definedin Scripture, is a moment by moment
yieldedness to the Holy Spirit, tobe under his control, to bear his
fruit Glacians five twenty two and twentythree, and to walk by the spirit
Glacians five sixteen. To the Greekword there paul uses peripateo means to go
about your business, to be totallypreoccupied moment by moment with the things of

(25:17):
the spirit. So I want togo, well, okay, what's the
will of the Holy Spirit. Whatdoes the Bible say he does and will
do? I want to be preoccupiedwith the things of God. That has
nothing to do with babbling in anothertongue or seeking some experience. That has
everything to do with walking an obedientlife for the glory of Christ. So

(25:38):
in studying all this, I thinkI have more understanding and appreciation for those
who don't won't agree with me,but they'll formulate their positions based on biblical
study and a little more of aheart to reach and reason with those who

(26:00):
are really driven by experiences and go, Okay, you know that's fine,
but could you formulate that position usingscripture? And rightly divided scripture so important
when it comes to baptism and fillingand all that. I'm around a lot
of people in that kind of campright now and have been most of my

(26:21):
life. I started my church journeyand a word of faith up until I
was six years old. My dadplayed in the band, so we were
very involved in the back end andthe front as well, and I really
didn't change any style of church forquite a while. Even after that we
moved away and kind of always wentto a church of that kind of nature,

(26:45):
more Word of faith style, andI've been a church drummer since I
was fourteen. I'm thirty eight now, and so I've been a part of
a lot of different ministries that everythingyou are saying is so familiar and still
going on. Of course, thatwhat hins why he wrote the book,
and I was really I was excitedwhen I saw the chapter on worship in

(27:11):
your book and was really curious tosee what you were going to say there,
because I've I've heard, especially withregards to the Holy Spirit, so
many strange things in the back roombefore I go out and play, from
many different people, and most ofmy theology around the Holy Spirit being formed

(27:33):
over all this time has been oh, that's that thing that energizes the music.
It uh, you know, thatmeans it's going really well, you
know, you know, it's makingthis a really good worship experience for everybody.
That's all the Holy spiritually doing hereand all my life, I didn't
even think about it until kind ofwhen we Lucas told me about this,

(27:56):
and I was like, wow,that's really kind of what I've been conditioned
think. I don't think that now, but and have it for quite a
while. But for you know,half my life, I didn't even realize
that's how I thought of him too. I was like, oh, yeah,
that's just a thing that God hasthat you know. It'll maybe play
drums really well. People really lovethe worship music. They'll come up and

(28:17):
you know, tell me I didgreat, you know, during the worship
service. And you know, andI don't mean to speak too negatively if
somebody's trying to just genuinely just bethankful you know that you were up there.
But you know, it's more justsad just their theology doesn't inform them
to maybe think differently about you know, that thought and why why am I

(28:38):
thinking him for his worship to God? You know, and and maybe that's
we're just focusing on the wrong directionhere, you know, and even going
up and saying that to somebody orjust saying it in a different way,
like hey, I appreciate you,you know, helping us lead us into
God's presence today worshiping God. Youknow. And uh, I was reading

(29:00):
through this chapter. It made mego, man, I wish and you
kind of touch on it, butI wish we had something in our churches
that taught the kind of congregation levelabout more about worshiping and like you you
know, you're mentioning. Everyone equatesit to music. Of course, which

(29:22):
is still how a lot of peoplethink if I talk to anybody, given
person on a given day. Sohow do you teach that then? Because
one of the things, like Isaid, we've had some other apologies that
are on the show. One ofthe questions that we posed specifically to Jim
Wallace was, all right, youhave presented us with all of this incredible
information, right and now I havebecome this wonderful intellectual Christian. How do

(29:49):
I engage emotionally? How do Ifind that balance between loving the Lord my
God with all my heart, allmy soul, all my mind, and
all my strength because right now I'vegot the all my mind part here?
Mmm. How do I get tothe point where I can balance the knowledge
that I have with the emotional encouragementof the Holy Spirit? How do you

(30:11):
balance those two things out? Andhow do you teach people how to balance
those things out? Those are greatquestions and important ones. There's a reason
that at the end of each chapterI did that learning to Live section and
at I what drives me nuts,And it's why our tagline for the Gospel

(30:32):
is sound Doctrine for everyday people.It's because I just can't stand and I
do this to a fault. SoI'm mad at myself when I do this,
when you just talk in lofty termsand you know, blast everyone with
with great theology, and you never, as like Chuck Swindall and so many
other men have said, bring thecookies down from the top shelf for all

(30:52):
of us, even the pastors needthat is, we got to go all
right, we've got some high theologyhere. Can we just bring that down
to you know, Monday and Tuesdayand Wednesday? What do I do now?
And so the last section of everychapter is called learning to Live,
and it's inspired by a friend ofmine who says, we don't just learn
to learn, we learn to live. So I want us to live the
truth. So I boil it downinto these principles, and you can put

(31:17):
these into practice. How you teachthat is, you've got to then press
into application and you look and say, okay, if the Holy Spirit's God,
so what now what? That's aclassic line from a football coach is
you know you won one game,great, So what now what? We
got another game coming? We gotMonday morning film to watch. I think
of that approach with theology, soI know something, Okay, now what

(31:41):
I'm going What am I going todo about it? And when it comes
to our worship, I think weneed to have the really honest, uncomfortable
conversations in our churches. Here's whatthe Bible teaches. What does that mean
for us? Here's what the Biblesays? How should that impact the worship
service? What meaning when the gathers? You mentioned something already when you said

(32:02):
worship, and it's not just music, okay, worship is a lifestyle biblically,
How then should our language change?Here's another one for you. If
the Holy Spirit is God, andhe is, and he's a person he
is, then how should we treathim in our worship gatherings? How should
we acknowledge him? Well, firstof all, he's God. We should

(32:22):
be very reverent of his work.That's gonna shape how we act and how
we operate. But maybe more thanthat, there's a lot of kind of
Christian jargon that comes out. AndI think we got this from the Passion
era and the Hillsong Conference era,when everyone would go with their youth group
and it was like the coolest thing, and you'd hear these guys up there

(32:44):
on the mic and these gals,and they would say, what, Holy
Spirit, we just welcome you herein this place. And they would say
in this place like every two seconds, you know, we just we just
want your presence here in this place, and we're so thankful that you're you
would meet us here in this place. And there's all this talk about the
presence and power and the Holy Spiritjust coming, we're like beckoning him in.

(33:07):
Well, when you get an understandingthat the Holy Spirit's God, what
is he omnipresent who entered whose presence? First, we don't ask him to
come. We thank him that he'shere, and we acknowledge that we've entered
into the presence of God, meaninghe was already there. But then let's
go deeper. First, Corinthian sixthnineteen and twenty talks about us being the

(33:30):
Holy Spirit's temple or the temple ofthe Holy Spirit. So God resides in
us. So why am I begginghim to come and just be here and
just fall on us when he's alreadyin us. So let's change our language.
Some people might say, ah,you're just be a nippicky. No,
let's change our language biblically and saywe're so thankful for the presence of
the Holy Spirit in us, andwe pray and ask that he would do

(33:54):
a mighty work in our hearts,that we would glorify Christ bear his fruit.
I mean, we should pray.Some people won't like this, especially
in the reform camp. When Isay we should pray to the Holy Spirit,
They're like, where's that in theBible, or where's this in the
Bible? Or well, we don'twant to get too weird. Now that's
what charismatics do. You can prayto every member of the Trinity in line

(34:15):
with their role. Now what youwouldn't do is Father, thank you for
coming and dying for me. No, Father, thank you for sending Christ
to die for me. I wouldn'tthank the Holy Spirit for going to the
cross and rising from the dead.So let's get our trinitarian theology correct.
The persons of the Godhead in theirrole. But the idea that I can

(34:37):
acknowledge the Father's work boldly and clearlyand accurately, and acknowledge the Son's work
boldly, clearly and accurately, butwe shouldn't really say much about the Holy
Spirit to him or ask him todo anything. Now we've swung the pendulum
the opposite direction into the other extreme. We should pray, because he's God,
we should pray for his work inline with his role to happen.

(34:59):
So I'm not being for it tobe now this stoic hymn saying where you
have to act like you're in amonastery and it can't you know, talk
to the talk to the Holy Spiritor about the Holy Spirit. No,
but why don't we stop begging himwith like what we heard at the Hillsong
conference and just repeating what we hearon the like these mushy radio stations and

(35:20):
they're like just pumping out fortune cookietheology, and let's change our language to
matt scripture. Thank him that he'sthere, thank him for his work,
ask him to do what the Biblesays he'll do, and that actually teaches
people sound theology, and it's puttingit into practice. So those are all
things. There's a lot there obviously. That's why there's seventy five thousand other

(35:42):
words on it in the book.Right, Yeah, for sure, you
know the I know we're running outof time. I want to hop into
the gifts of the Holy Spirit stuff. You've got some wonderful things in here
about particularly healing and miracles and theway that the Holy Spirit works and things
that we look for as signs oftrue healing and true miracles as works of
the Holy Spirit. One of thethings that I've read through this and I've

(36:07):
been following your story for a while, as I had some friends that were
at Dallas Baptist at the same timethat you were, and the fact that
there was a hint that was goingthere was like a thing, you know,
for all the young guys who werethinking about or considering going into ministry
during that time. And then whenyou know, I've seen some of your

(36:29):
your transformation over the last ten years, heard some of the things that you
have said on other podcasts, andI noticed with this book in particular,
as you have been very bold inthe last decade of you know, calling
out who is doing what where thesethings are on for the Gospel. You
guys are very bold and doing that. I'm noticing as I'm reading this book

(36:53):
that you you say something I'm like, I know who that's about. Why
it's so counterintuitive when I'm reading thisbook based on you know, the things
in your past, any other booksthat you've written, Why didn't he say
to this person's name, Like,I know exactly who this person is that
you're talking about in in Healing withLeg Lengthening. I saw you talk about
him on camera, But but nowyou're not mentioning their name. What was

(37:17):
different stylistically for you in this bookthat made that change? Is it that
you know, maybe you're you're softeningbecause you're becoming a pastor. Is that
that you're getting a little mushy oris it is it something where you wanted
a different tone to the book?Oh man, you're just you're you're piercing

(37:38):
my soul here. It's all yesto all of it. First of all,
I'm so sorry to everyone who Iwent to DVU with who had to
endure me at that time and myhypocrisy and my hummer and parking it wherever
I wanted. But you had agood swing, so accurate. Go Thank

(38:01):
god, Chris Grace. That's whyI winced. When you're like, I
know some people are like, ohon that note you said to think,
so here here's my soul laid bare. Honesty number one. Everybody knows we've
called everyone out, and we willcall you out if you're doing shenanigans and

(38:22):
leading people astray. You know therethere could be other resources that deal with
that and name their names and gointo that, and we have and I
mean we just did last week.So all of that's true and still the
consistent job of ministers. In thisbook, I wanted to make it or
write it in such a way thatanyone could come to the table with their

(38:45):
theology and learn and consider and hearmy arguments without being derailed by me knocking
out one of their heroes or namedropping or name calling. There are there
names named, Yes, are theresome footnotes? Yes, are there some

(39:06):
hard statements? Absolutely every chapter allthroughout. However, pastorally, I got
a goal here. My goal isto live out that last chapter, which
is about the unity of the spirit, and help people who may not be
outside the faith, but they're outsidethe bounds of good theology feel welcome to

(39:29):
the table for discussion, sort ofthe HMU like, help me understand where
are you at? Here's where I'mat. Rather than just name them now,
we've I've written Defining Deception. That'son the NR. Just names them
all. It's got hundreds of footnotes. There's a place for that if people
want to kind of go a littledeeper, and it's a little more gloves

(39:50):
off for a purpose. We goafter all the heresy with this. There's
that, but you said something else. You said, you're just you're becoming
more pastoral. You pastor a church. Now, I'm a sure planter.
I'm meaning people every week and they'regetting saved. And others are coming from
churches that are more Pentecostal. Somehave come from churches that would be like

(40:15):
the things I describe in the book. And they're coming to the church and
I'm having a coffee with them,I'm talking to them and I'm thinking,
man, I'm watching God work intheir life from a conversation about theology,
asking good questions, sharing the truth, but not jumping down their throat immediately
when they say, yeah, Iwas you know, I was reading a

(40:36):
book by so and so. I'mlike, oh, by the way,
they're a heretic, so you shouldburn that. And here's why they're wrong,
and here's the four evidences. Letme send you a link as well
for that. Boo boo boom,just absolute tko. And they're going,
I don't know what to do withany of this. That seemed aggressive.
So yes, at thirty eight I'msure that when I'm forty eight, like

(40:58):
I wish they could go back andtalk to the younger me. I am
not stopping the freight train of truthat all or slowing it down. I'm
just finding pastorally that there's a timeand a place to set the thing on
fire. And there's a time forstrong apologetics and name dropping a name name

(41:20):
calling if you will, or notnamed sorry, not name calling, never
into the cussing pastor again. Andthere's a time with people to be reasonable
and to dialogue and ask questions.And so in those chapters, my goal
is it's not an attack on falseteachers. That's not the concept of the

(41:42):
book. The concept of the bookis to help people understand the Holy Spirit.
So in that regard, I wantto deal with the theology. And
here's the last thing. I wantedit to be a little bit more timeless
because the topics so important, Andif you were to remove the names,
would the theology and the arguments standin forty years, my prayers they will?

(42:07):
Why because it was about the truth. It was not about slamming someone
or one upping, and so onemore element on that. I have had
more conversations with guys that I don'tagree with in the last year who I
don't know what changes they'll make intheir ministries. I don't know if Phil

(42:28):
one day like come out and justrepent like crazy and be honest with everyone
publicly. I don't know. ButI've had good conversations with some guys that
I have strong disagreements with, andthere was that was another reason, as
I thought, if if they wereto get saved, do I have to
do footnotes in the book? SoI tried to stick with and you know

(42:51):
you're a pastor. Yeah, it'stough. It's tough to like, you
know. So I wanted to stickto like what I know and really have
everyone come to the table for theologyon this. Yeah. I do like
the the intent that this is amuch more ever green piece of work than
than what your previous books have been. And we've we've kind of used a

(43:12):
similar analogy with instead of it beingthe freight train of truth, you know,
we don't want people to get runover by the truth bus. That
instead of instead of people getting hitby the truth bus, which sometimes happens,
what we would rather do is thatwe'd rather get them a ticket and
help them on the journey, becausethe destination is going to be the same.
And whether that is being hammered byit, or somebody walking that path

(43:35):
with you, or just getting alongfor the ride, then that's it.
Well, COSTI. As we toldyou beforehand, we finish all of our
segments with a little or all ofour shows with a segment we call controlled
routing us. This just a seriesof rapid fire questions which you can answer
with as short or as lengthy responseas you would like. Expect nothing from
us by way of reply or response, and to get us going. Question

(43:59):
number one, how much faith doI need to have if I want a
jet more than more than more thancrafflo dollar? Because I don't know if
he got his sixty five minutes oryet last time he tried. And this
is why it's always more fun todo it with apologists and pastors than it
is comedians. Question number two.Aliens have landed, they have picked you

(44:24):
up, and they've said, listen, Cossi. We we've looked at a
lot of your stuff. We reallylove it, but we need you to
tell us a story so good inthe next sixty seconds that we decide not
to destroy the world. And itcan't be the gospel. You're on the
clock. Once upon a time therewere a group of demons who tried to

(44:47):
confuse mankind by pretending they were aliens. But we're onto you. It's demonic
and come out in Jesus name loveit now? Is the that is that
Genesis six point five? Is thatwhat that was? Was the Nephelim that?
I like that. I like thata little bit. Listens to like

(45:09):
blurry creatures or some of these.Uh yeah, But I'm really trying to
I'm trying to figure out where Iland. I still think the Earth is
a sphere. Don't don't at me, people out there, I do not.
I'm not. I can't believe thatgoing into space is fake because I

(45:29):
know astronauts that are believers, Like, sure, they're liars. And I
know someone right now is like,yep, they're in on it. They're
totally in Yeah. But I'm reallyworking through this, the aliens and the
demonic. But if there are aliens, then I have to go live out
the Great Commission because they're a lifeform. I need to evangelize them.
Can't that can't fly. It's notflying with my theology. So I've got

(45:50):
like, if this is jeopardy,you know, I've got got a little
category for them. It's got tobe demonic or some sort of counterfeit,
right man, distracted and getting crazyon it. Anyway, that's not part
of this. But well, Ithink the good news is the aliens were
exercised and we were saved because allof that happened just over like ninety seconds.
So so well done, and congratulationsand good on all of us.

(46:14):
Thank you Costi Hen for saving theworld once again. Now we can know
the Holy Spirit and rest in thegood fortune we had that he casted out
the alien devons. Well man,well, tell our audience where it is
they can find if they want tofollow you on social media. I'm on
Instagram and Facebook. I had toget rid of Twitter because it started getting

(46:34):
death threats for seeing homosexuality as asin and true story and people were threatening
to come to my house. Thenthey found my wife's number. It was
a very long story. And thenour ministry for the Gospel is on every
social media outlet and you go tofor the Gospel dot org for resources there,
and yeah, you can get thebook wherever books are sold. And

(46:57):
then there's an audible version to thismade for someone if they like audio books.
This is the first book I've evernarrated, So it is eight hours
of me preaching at you. Becausewhen you put a preacher who wrote a
book in a studio for an audiobook, I just sort of went knots
for three days and was like woo, that was like twelve sermons. So

(47:19):
that's awesome. I'll get to hearCosty at one point seven speeds and whenever
I pick up the audible book.Well, man, thanks so much for
coming on the show. It's beenan absolute last We appreciate the boss,
appreciate you guys. Costy freaking handdude, what an absolute blast of an
interview. Oh yeah, I'm Iwas really cautious going into this, like

(47:44):
there are so many people you've beenin industry for a really long time as
well. We're we're the same age. We're the same age as Costy,
right, And so when we approachsomebody who has such vast theological background,
there's always the question of is itlegit right? Did they because we've seen

(48:07):
it happened before. Did they seekind of the culture or the theology or
the you know, whatever the dollarsmoving to a different thing, and are
they making this turn in order thatthey can profit off of it? And
so I was. I was reallycautious whenever I first heard that he was
moving away from prosperity Gospel. Iwas really cautious whenever we saw the first

(48:30):
couple of books, whenever I heardhis first few interviews. He's proved to
be nothing but genuine. And oneof the things I found out, and
we both you mentioned this as soonas our time with him is up,
was what a just genuinely nice guyhe is, because that when when you're
talking about it we talked a lotin the interview, when you're talking about

(48:52):
like naming names and coming out againsta heretical doctrine, so often you're not
able to show the kindness, goodness, gentleness side of yourself because you you
are, as he said, you'vegot to have that voice that calls out

(49:13):
the wolves while you you protect thesheep. I believe it's a Calvin quote,
is that the pastor has two voices, one to call his sheep home
and the other to drive away thewolves. And when you're using that voice,
even though it's done in love andit is it is kind because you
are moving someone or making someone awarethat they're in a place of heresy.
It is, you know, animportant rebuke to make. There are sometimes

(49:35):
where it's just difficult, I thinkfor that average person or even somebody who
steeped in the theological debates, it'shard to look at that and be like,
Okay, who's he calling out thistime? Man, that the guy
we just interviewed is is incredible andto see his journey, his journey has
been also. Now I know youare a big fan of his podcasts,

(49:58):
You've got some some similar background stuff. You know. What were your big
takeaways from the interview? Well,it was definitely focusing just the book focusing
on kind of teaching about the HolySpirit versus addressing hot topics and addressing people
around those hot topics, and kindof making it a little bit more hit

(50:20):
piece style book and not necessarily arguingagainst everybody on all their positions, more
just trying to bring a biblically basedposition and just learning about it. Like
he'd mentioned, no matter which youknow background you were coming from, which
I thought was really cool. Mostof the time, any book I've ever

(50:42):
seen written on the Holy Spirit's definitelynot that way. Yeah, it's not
very approachable at all unless you comefrom only a certain style or background,
and so it's always kind of rough, a rough read if you're not that
right person. And and I'm gladthat he has a strategy to, uh,
you know, let people see wherehe was coming from biblically on the

(51:04):
Holy Spirit, and then maybe someof the heavier in the topics or at
the latter part of the book,so that they can see, hey,
this is where we're coming from,and then here's some of those heavier things
that you know, cause a littlebit more conflict interpretation and everything like that.
You know. He made mention ofMacArthur's book, Strange Fire, and
one of the criticisms of MacArthur's book, and a criticism of a lot of

(51:27):
apologists, is more often than not, we know what you're against, we
don't know what you're for. Right. This was a has been a big
criticism of even some of the gueststhat we've had on our show. And
I really love not only the commenthe made about Strange Fire that Okay,
if you take chapter one and thenyou bury it further into the book,
then it doesn't seem so harsh.This is really the first thing I've seen

(51:52):
from Costi where then the entirety,especially the first six chapters, is all
about what he's for. You know, this is how you should approach the
Holy Spirit. This is what thescripture says about the Holy Spirit. And
there is this just beautiful kind oflaying out of who this Holy Spirit is,

(52:13):
why he is active and alive,and every believer, how we should
respond to him in worship and inprayer. And then moves into Okay,
now that we've established who the HolySpirit is and what we believe about the
Holy Spirit based on the scriptures,then we go into the next thing.
And he's also very gracious about peoplethat have other viewpoints and that just because

(52:37):
of the journey that he's had,I think anyway, and it was fun
to get to kind of ask thisin a way. And that last question,
you know, is it because nowyou're a pastor and before control wrouting
is right, you know, what, why is there this this softening here?
And yes, some of it,certainly, he says, is pastoral.
Some of the tone of the bookthat he wanted it to be more
more theological than something else. Thenida that now he gets to for maybe

(53:05):
the first time in his ministry ashe's planting and pastoring at church. Well,
now the whole context of his ministryhas changed. He's not being asked
to come and to speak at conferencesagainst the prosperity Gospel or to be a
part of documentaries that are against thisor against this. Now, weekend and

(53:27):
week out he has to, asyou know, he's called, get into
the pulpit, talk about why heis for the gospel. It's what his
ministry's called, right, Why he'sfor the gospel, Why it's so important?
What are the things that we needto do and believe? And he's
in a much more teaching roling.You can really see that come across in
this book. And I have tosay again, you know there's there's always

(53:49):
apprehension all the way through. Andwhat I didn't tell him was I knew
him at DVU, had friends whoare on the I say, I knew
him. I had friends who areon the baseball team at DVU, right,
And and we we ran in somesimilar circles. The guy we talked
to today is certainly not the onefrom twenty years ago who was who is
playing it at Dallas Baptist. Butalso on top of that, when you

(54:15):
when you look at the book knowingthe Spirit, it is so much about
not what he's against, which ishow I think a lot of people have
tried to pigeonhole his ministry. Itis completely about what he's and I will
I will say at times I havebeen one of those have said, all
right, this is you know,have you read the you know the costi

(54:37):
hen blog is like what's he against? This time? Right? Like?
What sure? You know? Thisis is totally different. It's a beautiful
theological not just book and educational thing, but it's also kind of a in
my estimation without signing too romantic,it's a bit of a love letter to

(55:00):
people who do not have a greattheological foundation for the Holy Spirit of this
is who the Scripture says the HolySpirit is, and how you can respond
to him in your life in aloving way where he can he can go
in and change it in the waythat He was designed here. It's it's
absolutely incredible. But I've never seena resource that I've ever come across that

(55:22):
that has everything laid out, especiallygoing through a lot of the basics,
and not only basics, but thenjust a lot of the scriptural reference all
in one place, not to beproving some point, but to teach people,
Hey, this is everything the Bibleis saying about the Holy Spirit all
in one area. Just it's almosta quick and easy reference straight from the

(55:45):
Bible. He has so many scripturereferences in there. Yeah, sure,
it's it's a could near just bea study Bible, you know, in
that kind of way. Right.Absolutely, he's not relying on here's my
opinion on this. There's a littlescripture that likes my opinion on the Holy
Spirit. You know, was alot of good, good things in there,
and it almost seems like he stopshimself if there is too much without

(56:06):
a scripture reference, just so youknow, he can show that, hey,
this is not coming from this,you know, Costi Hind is saying
this about the Holy Spirit, andthere's a lot of good foundation that someone
could have with it. A lotof people I talked to, especially if
the Holy Spirit is brought up,which as we talked about, is usually
pretty often yeah, well yeah,yeah, it's often in some circles and

(56:29):
rare in others, depending on whereyou're at. Well, the circles that
I mean even if it's talked about, though it's not really talked about theologically,
it's just emotionally, like I hadmentioned earlier, you know, musically,
it's always like, oh, that'sthe thing that supercharges the room,
you know whatever, and the HolySpirit bring the energy. Almost none of
the stuff that as we were goingthrough the chapters and stuff, almost none

(56:52):
of that stuffs brought up. Andeven a Christian conversation that I might have
much as some of that's not thatwould bring that up. And even I
have to go, oh, man, it's hard for me to I've never
thought about all this stuff. Itwants almost in my own self when I'm
reading through that and different those differentverses in the Bible about the Holy Spirit,

(57:14):
what it does, what he does. Sorry, yeah, And that's
so like that little language change,which is something that he talks about at
the very beginning in the introduction,is moving from the ED to the He
is such an important thing, andhe doesn't ever encourage and I'm gonna use
a second semester word here, anthropomorphizationof the Holy Spirit. Right that you're

(57:36):
not he's not saying that you needto refer to the Holy Spirit as a
dove he's not saying that you needyou know, the Holy Spirit is not
a bird or whatever. He's talkingabout the Holy Spirit within biblical context,
and the level that he breaks itdown at makes it very intellectually available.
But like, this is something Iwould feel completely comfortable recommending to our high

(57:57):
school students and saying, hey,you know what, if you need a
good basis of theology about the HolySpirit, this is a great place to
start. This is a book thatI would encourage people to use to teach
from probably the high school leveling up. And it's one that the concepts are
easy to get. They're explained soso so well with such great clarity,

(58:21):
and in a way that's really likeI said, it's very gracious and very
humble. Like he states, youmay not agree with everything that I say,
but please realize I am doing mybest to give grace to each one
of the systems of belief that areset forward, right, And he doesn't
talk about it like, you know, to give grace to each one of

(58:44):
these pieces of theology Aaron and notAeron as they apply to blah blah blah.
No, like each one of thesedifferent beliefs in their place. What
people believe why I agree with this, why I don't with this. You
don't have to agree with me,but just know I'm going to give a
fair biblical overview of all of him, and I think he does a phenomenal
job of that. Brolin. Ican't say how much I appreciate you.

(59:06):
You're coming on hanging out with ustoday, filling in that that reprobate chair
for the sick. Dan. Yeah, so it's a big chair to fill,
but you know, here we are. Yeah. The man's got He's
got very big feet and an amplehaunch us. So thank you guys for
watching the Reverend and the Reverband.Make sure that you check out Costi's book,
Knowing the Spirit came out and theday before yesterday, so you can

(59:28):
get it now. Order it onAmazon and wherever books are sold. Click
all the linked in there, andmake sure that you go follow him and
stay hard to keep jamming. We'llsee you flee