The Truth in True Crime | Apologetics | Identity | Internet Trolls | J. Warner Wallace

J. Warner Wallace returns to the show to talk about his new book "The Truth In True Crime"! The guys chat about book, where people find their identities, why apologetics is so difficult in today's culture and how many energy drinks is too many.

Today's guest reprobate come from the  @jesusandjiujitsu  podcast! Go check them out and give them some love!

Rev and Rep Linktr.ee (all the show links can be found below) https://linktr.ee/revreppodcast

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Follow up hosts of Forest and Fires, Kyle Man Warner Wallace. You're Davis
bet Hey. This is Dave Basiscarry Palmroli. This is Mike Wader.
This this is LAMB. Morgan.Is Graham Parker, the Fifth GP.
And this is why you should nevernever, never, never never. How
I got suckered in. I'm soembarrassed that I'm here. You're wasting your
time. You got better things todo. Never lessen close, Darling yeng

(00:24):
Mate, Reverend and the Ramper Bike. Welcome to The Reverend and the Reprobating
Show. We're two best buds interviewpeople they have no business talking to.
My name is Lucas pingerd I'm anactual reverend and here with me as never
before seen is a friend of mine, one of the hosts of the Jesus
and Jiu Jitsu podcast, also amember of the ft X group. If

(00:47):
you don't know what that is,you go check out the Jesus and Jiu
Jitsu podcast the JP to L podcastto learn about the the experiential Leadership Trading
Field Trading Exercise. It's fabulous,the talented, the very tall enough to
turn our lights on and off withouta stool Josh Strasberger, what's going on?
Man? Hi, guys. It'sgood to be here, is it.
Yeah? I'm sure I'm pretty excited. But are you only minimally palm

(01:08):
sweaty? Yeah? You know,it's cool. So this is your first
episode like doing a like interview withwith somebody? Yes, yeah, So
what do you think before we becauseeverybody knows we record this at the end,
right right? So did you havefun? I had a lot of
fun. Yeah, And he wasa delight to talk to. He needs
super easy to interview, so yeah, he being Jay Warner Wallace. The

(01:33):
new book The Truth in True Crimejust came out from Zonoman Publishing. We
talk a little bit about his careergoal case detective. We get into a
lot about the fifteenth Like the thingabout this book is he outlines fifteen different
things like attributes that we as peopleneed to be successful in in order for

(01:57):
us to flourish. How those thingswere effective markers of like people's identity and
things through fifteen different true crime stories, which is what the book's about,
which is very very cool. Butwe hit on a number of those things
to kind of talk about, like, what are some things that we could
be doing, not just to bemore successful as Christians, more successful as
you know, pastors or whatever,but just successful as individual humans, right

(02:22):
right. And then in controlled roundinesswe get into some some pretty sporty seven
deep questions. Yeah about energy drinks. Yes, we go deep about energy
drinks. Yeah, and the Bluetheme song, Blue theme song. My
kids are older, did you guysever watch Blue Vie? Yes? And
my seven year old will still watchit and if it's on, we'll all

(02:43):
watch it. Are you so?Season three of Blue? I think it's
like almost at the end, there'sfifty something episodes which are like seven to
ten minutes, right, are youlike me? Like if when when my
wife watches a show like that's likeher right now? Her laundry show is
The Crown And yeah, so andfor those of you who don't know,

(03:06):
we just had baby number two hashas just arrived like three weeks old,
thank you very much. And solike while she's you know, she puts
him down, she'll throw the airPUDs in, turn on the Apple TV
while she's kind of you know,folding laundry or whatever, and and she'll
watch The Crown and I can popin and out of that one but it's
not a big deal to me.If I come home and they've watched like
two episodes of Blue and I'm likebehind, I get a little upset.

(03:30):
That is, like, for whateverreason, like this this kid's cartoon.
I'm like, hold on, what'shappening with the Healer family? And why
why is there a first sale signin their yard? Why are all these
yeah, like why are all ofthese things happening? And I don't know
what it is. She's like,oh, well, you know believe I
was having a little trouble getting downfor naps. So now that I've got

(03:53):
the one that you know is fullydependent on me, like bringing the two
year old up to watch an episodeof Blue before naptimes kind of chilling him
out. Yeah, I thanks forthe spoiler. By the way, we
don't have streaming, so we arebehind. We just received disc three on
disc to watch them. Now they'vewatched through them multiple times. Yeah,

(04:16):
okay, so if you're watching theones on disc, you actually get this
has nothing to do with the interview. But no, not at all.
You actually get some of the someof the stuff that is not shown on
the stripper services correct, And there'slike the actual like Australian cut of it
on some of the episodes too.Really, I haven't watched any, but

(04:39):
the kids, like even my olderboys will like laugh at some of the
stuff and and and the Aussie cutof it. Yeah, all right,
that's pretty cool. They made anepisode available called like baby Dad or Dad
Baby something like that where bandit.And the only reason that I watched it

(05:00):
is because, right Kirsten and Iwere talking about things because she's no longer
pregnant, how much things have changedand yeah yeah, and she's like,
well, I don't bump into stuffanymore. So this this one is an
episode that was not released on streaming, and so Bluey, like the official
Blue channel, made it available forfree on YouTube. You can watch just
like eight minutes long. It's prettyhysterical. The the like crux of the

(05:26):
episode is that bandit the dad findsa pappoose, right, a little baby
carrier, and he was like,oh, this is what we used to
carry around with your babies, andso Banjo, the younger daughter, hops
in it, and then he's like, oh, it wouldn't be that hard
to be pregnant, and so hepretends like he's a pregnant mom So that's
the game they decided to play,is that he's a pregnant mom the whole
time, and the wife follows hisfollows him around, and anytime he makes

(05:49):
like a derogatory comment, she hitshim with a rolled up newspaper. So
like there's several like level, butso much of it is like, Yeah,
these are the conversations that that Ihad. And the thing that that
got me the most about it waswhen Kirsten was pregnant. I especially in
the middle of the third trimester whenshe's getting up and she's like, I'm

(06:09):
kind of like holding her back whenshe's getting up from the ground. Our
oldest who was like eighteen nineteen monthsold at the time, would watch her
like kind of waddle to get upand move around, and he would wait
to get up, and then hewould look at me and he would hold
his back and be like like likeholding his bag whenever he's walking around.
She's like, you're gonna need todeal with your son newspaper. Yep,

(06:30):
that's exactly right. So before wehop into the interview, we got a
couple of minutes. Tell everybody realquick, give us a high level.
What is the Jesus and jiu Jitsupodcast that you're a part of that ministry
that you're you're a part of thepeople want to go check it out or
want to support that ministry. SoJesus and jiu Jitsu, it's me and
three other guy, well four becauseLucas is part of it barely. I'm

(06:50):
a producer of the show. He'shosted numerous episodes. But we started it
just I guess readers digest version tryingto bring I'm old a short version,
the tld R version. That's whatit is. That's what it is.

(07:11):
But we just wanted to bring twothings that we love together and it started
as a monthly to four to sixweek event in person where we teach a
seminar for jiu jitsu, you getsome live roles, and then we also
get to share a testimony about Jesusin there. The thought behind that is

(07:33):
there's a lot of people that we'refriends with, we're close with that train
jiu jitsu, but may or maynot have a church, or may not
ever go to a church. Butto bring these things together was just laid
upon our heart in an effort tospread the gospel. It branched out from
that we now have a weekly podcastevery Tuesday. We still do the in

(07:55):
person events, we have merch andthat's just where we're at. Yeah,
right on, man, Well,make sure that you check it out.
Links to Jesus and Jiu JITs aregonna be in the show notes as long
as every are as well as everythingthat Jay Warner Wallace has going on.
Hang around for the interview and withoutany further ado, Jay Warner, let's

(08:15):
go okay. On today's is SweetClean Airways, mister Strasburger, we have
one of my favorite intellectuals to getto talk to. It is a guy
who was first recommended to us byProfessor Nancy Pearcy. As we were talking
to her about some of the wonderfulpologetics works that she's done. She was
like, if you like me,you're gonna love Jay Warner Wallace. And

(08:35):
so we have got him back forthe third time on the show to torture
him with our less than stellar questions. It's it's detective and apologist Jim Wallace.
What's going on? Man? Well, I'm actually, you know,
I'm glad to be on a showwhere I get tortured with stupid questions.
You know, when you do abook. When you write a book,
you end up like doing interviews forthe book and right, and it's you

(09:01):
know, I hate to say that, but it's my one of my least
favorite things, because I do liketo talk about these issues, right,
but it feels like, my gosh, it's so self focused. I'm constantly
talking about me, me, me, me. So so now if you
can ask me something stupid there's notabout me, I can turn it around
and ask you a stupid question too. That's perfect curse the battle of stupid
questions. I like that. I'mtotally Yeah. So the new book is

(09:24):
called The Truth and True Crime.My wife did mention to me as I
was reading this. She was like, man, you do so good when
you read Jim's books. She's like, versus some of the other apologists that
you read. And I was like, you know why, Jim's books has
pictures, and those pictures really helpedme to understand the concepts. Whereas you
know, if if Carl Truman orProfessor Piercey are writing something, all it

(09:45):
is is like this block of text. I'm like, okay, I got
to read this again, all right, I need to read on this here.
Yeah, where I can read issomething that that you've written, and
then on the next page there's thispicture and I'm like, ah, okay,
now I get it. So Iwant to start with that. Like
you ever heard Have you ever heardNate Bargatzi the comedian? Oh yeah,
yeah, we got to see himin October. Okay, did you see

(10:05):
his bit for Saturday Night Liverrey.He talks about books and there's so many
words break, you know, likeyou want to catch a bread dude.
Just thought a few pages how Ifeel about writing books too. I think
I want to like space these thingsout, and this is a book that
has you know, it's a reallyquick read compared to a lot of the
other books that I've written. Istill wanted to put there was at one

(10:28):
point the publishers like, do weeven need images in this book? Like,
manh, I think so. Ithink I think it. I think
that people just want to break inthe text. You know. Think about
imagine if your Bible had they wentback to the original versions with no verse
designations, no chapter does and anda lot of the modern Bibles we have

(10:50):
now not just they have verses inchapters separated at but they've also separated out
within the chapter like subject matter.All this parable, now that parable,
and you think, well, it'sno big deal. Oh yeah it is,
because when you read it, youoften will stop right there. You'll
see, okay, this is agood breaking point, right, this is
a place I can catch a breath. I thought when Nate said that,
it was like brilliant because it's sotrue of how we actually read Lucas.

(11:13):
Don't you read a Bible that's freeof that. Yeah? I have the
CSB Reader's Bible and it's got nochapters or verse designations or anything. Yeah,
like okay, so how do youfeel about it? So when when
I read the Epistles, it's beautifulbecause there's no break in the ideas that
you just get to see the paragraphstructure because there's so many of the letters

(11:35):
that Paul wrote that like chapter eightends, but the idea doesn't really end
until like halfway through chapter nine.So there's some of that stuff that it's
really really great. Yeah, whenI'm in the lineages, oh my gosh,
I am begging that. I'm absolutelybegging for some diagram or something to
say, hey, this is whythis is important, you know, versus

(11:58):
the trust? Well, the newbook is called The Truth in True Crime,
and that's one of the first thingsI wanted to talk about were the
use of the diagrams, right,that you use these these things to illustrate
several of the different points that you'remaking. Particularly, and I don't want
to give like I've got questions foreverything throughout this book as I have for

(12:20):
you, like the last several timeswe've got to talk, but I don't
want to give too much of thebook away. So I want to start
with some stuff that's like in thevery beginning and kind of foundational for the
book, you talk about three differenttypes of identities, the inside out identity,
the outside in identity, and thetop side down. You've got a
wonderful diagram about those things. Thatidea in particular is one that a lot

(12:45):
of people are talking about. It'sone that really culturally is becoming a really
hot issue. Why do you thinkthat that is such an important thing for
us as believers and people who arenon believers to understand, like where we
get our identity from. Well,I try to talk about these things a
little different with every group I talkedto us. I'm not try to talk
about a little bit differently with youguys. So I knew the identity was

(13:05):
important. Say that again, Yeah, talk about it, make it.
Yeah what I mean though, it'slike it's like I get bored sometimes talking
about the same issues over and overand over again. But there's so many
nuances to them that it's just likea deep well you could really never dry
out. So when it comes toidentity, this is another deep well.
So much so that we do workin the summer, Susie and I with

(13:26):
police officers who have been critically injuredand their marriages are struggling, and often
they can't even get to the dangresiliency retreat before they get divorced, so
they don't even make it. Butif I can get them there, we
have a chance of helping them repairtheir marriages. And there's so many things
you can think of, Okay,what's the what's the issue here? Like
where's the real struggle because it seemsdifferent in every couple. Well, it

(13:50):
turns out that there's two things nowthat I focus on from the get go
with officers, whether they're you know, a female officer with a spouse or
a male with the spouse, andsometimes we get both where both are police
officers, and it's it's identity isone of the first things. And you
might think, well, what's thatWhy it's because it turns out that identity

(14:11):
is one of these issues that issneakily present in every other issue, and
everywhere you struggle, this issue comesup. And it's what I've discovered.
And a lot of these folks weare dealing with are been their agencies are
trying to retire them medically. Theyare being diagnosed with PTSD kind of like
a military diagnosis of PTSD after aninjury, and so the question then becomes,

(14:37):
all right, so how do wehelp them kind of recover from this
PTSD. Well, here's what Idiscovered is that every place where you have
a traumatic event in your life,if you could charge it somehow go back
and not everyone else, not allof us, have had a lot of
traumatic events. For a lot ofus, the trauma might simply be that
we didn't get something we were tryingto get, like a job. But
whatever it was where you said Istruggled in that season, bad health,

(14:58):
diagnosed, an injury, a divorce, loss of a loved one. Wherever
it is that you said, yeah, I really struggled in that. If
you go back and look at thatseason, you'll see that your identity shifted
how you saw yourself. If yousaw yourself as bulletproof, and then you
get injured in a way that's almostlike embarrassing, you start to change the

(15:20):
way you see yourself. If yousaw yourself and identify to yourself as a
happily married and that was really importantto you, and then suddenly your spouse
walks up and cheats on you ordivorces you, it affects your identity,
the way you see yourself, Andso this is interesting. Trauma shifts identity.
The converse is also true. Whenyour identity shifts, you'll experience trauma.

(15:45):
Oh so, knowing that it explainsa lot about what I'm dealing with.
When I see people who are sufferingtrauma, it's about identity and how
they now see themselves. So,if you did nothing else, recognize this.
If you form your identity in away that can be shifted or stolen
or bruised or altered, you're morelikely to suffer trauma. If you form

(16:08):
your identity in something that is unchanging, transcendent, more bulletproof, doesn't change
you're less likely to suffer trauma,or if you do suffer trauma, it's
not as deep. So the threeways we form identity is the way that
the ancients did outside in where welook at something that's outside of ourselves,

(16:30):
something that existed before we were evenborn. Maybe it's our group, our
tribe, our nation, our ethnicity. Maybe it's the family occupation. I
am a butcher. My family hasalways been butchers, and the ancients would
do this. There were certain classesof people, and you identify yourself based
on that class. Now the problem, of course with that is you may
not even like that. It mightbe who you really are, and it

(16:52):
can change. I discovered it myselfbecause for years I was a cold case
detective and I thought I was prettysuccessful at it, and then I retired
and I struggled for five or sixyears trying to figure out who I was,
Like, who am I? Now? Guys do this, We're terrible.
We do it all the time.I have a friend named Joe Martin
who says this about guys, andyou tell me this is you should have

(17:15):
them on your show. I thinkhe's excellent. Joe does this thing where
he'll say that all conversations between menare about the ass The conversation starts off
with the first question, what doyou do? Occupation is the first ation,
and what we're asking is who areyou really? Because we measure each
other. Remember, all identity iscomparative, So you know, not that

(17:38):
you would care about how strong youare, is that I'm stronger than you,
how rich you are that I'm richerthan you. It's a comparative thing.
So the first thing we're asking isoccupation. Men. Second thing we
typically ask was we get the occupationthing down, is we're going, I
don't know how much money that makes. Compensation is the second ation. Oh

(18:00):
and I know if you're a brainsurgeon that take re fires a certain amount
of training that I don't have.So you're comparing the next Asian education.
Oh and if you're a brain surgeon, are you a good one? Reputation
is the next as And if you'rea cop or in the military, there's
an even better one. Because Idon't care if you're the most educated person
in this close room, I makethe most money in this room. If

(18:23):
I'm six foot eight and cut likea Greek god, I win tenidation as
the next station. Okay, soit turns out, what are we doing
here? We are looking at ouridentity and trying to figure out who we
are compared to others. Now,that in outside in, that's an ancient
way of doing identity, but thatmost part today a lot of young people
are forming it from the inside out. So what they're saying is there's something

(18:45):
that I desire on the inside,something that's so unique to me. It's
my desires, my preferences, myunique giftedness. If you've got a Christian
you would say, you know,you're innate giftedness or you're innate ability.
Sure, and I'm so good atthis that this is how I identify.
And I'm gonna ask all of youon the outside to recognize that this is
how I see myself based on mypersonal desires, and you must accept that

(19:07):
it could even be based on mysexual preference or based on my gender identity.
You will see this is how Ifeel on the inside. You will
just recognize it. That's an insideout approach. The problem with both the
outside and the inside out approach isthey can be shifted. You can take
away someone's outside in identity. Eventuallyyou're going to retire away from that outside
in identity, and your desires oryour heart will change every other minute.

(19:32):
So you're going to put your identityin something that shifts that easily. Then
be ready for a turbulent life.Now, if you can go top side
down, if you can put youridentity in Christ as a Christian, things
will change because and I don't knoweven though I knew this was true for
me as as a guy who gettingready to retire, and I look forward
to my retirement for years, andthen that day I retired. I was

(19:56):
a Christian the day before I retired, and a Christian the day after.
Yet I still suffered with this becauseI wasn't putting my I just said my
identity was in Christ. My identitywas really my work. That's a very
selfish by the way. That's pride. Pride is that thing that says,
no, look I'm different than you. I can do this better than you.
Remember, all identity is comparative.And what we don't like, I

(20:18):
think, sometimes is to think,well, if I'm in Christ and you
two guys are in Christ, thenwe're just the same. No, no,
no, You're not gonna lose youruniqueness. Yeah, that's what we
have to remember is that God's goingto use this in different ways. But
we have to put our identity insomething that doesn't shift. And so a
lot of the work we're trying todo with the couples is to help them

(20:38):
get their identity in something they can'tlose. That they can't that a spouse
can't bruise, that your kids can'tmess up, that your job can't fire,
that your community can't sue. Youridentity isn't something that transcends all of
that, and if it is,you're gonna You're gonna survive this. That's

(21:00):
that's pretty incredible, especially when welike we get to do a lot of
work with with law enforcement. Joshgets to do a lot of work with
a company called Echelon Front that JockoWilling and Life Babin started that does leadership
consulting. But you guys do alot of stuff with with law enforcement.
We've got law yeah, yeah,we do some law enforcement training here.
We've got an event coming up onJune eleventh where we're going to be doing

(21:22):
that. And it's interesting to mehow much that group, in particular,
how much of their entire persona,their ego is tied to their job and
I think that you know, whenyou have people in law enforcement, when
you have first responders, when youhave guys that are former military, but

(21:44):
even with people who are like civilservants, that that is, you know,
whether it is a job that putsyou in the line of danger or
whether your identity is, hey,this is what I do for my community.
I'm a I'm a pastor, I'man alderman, a city councilman,
or whatever. So much of ouridentity is tied to that. And when
and when we get voted out,when we move to the new place,
when something happens in the department orwhatever, and those things change that there

(22:08):
is this you know, this trauma, this loss of identity. When you're
talking about this in this chapter,you're talking about a young may named Lincoln
who is who's an incredible athlete andends up in a place that is almost
unfathomable for people on the outside lookingin. Can you tell us a little

(22:30):
bit of that story and why,like you use that story because it is
so powerful when we're talking about identity. Well, so this is a guy
who his entire family were really goodathletes, and he kind of saw himself
in that legacy of football players,his dad's brother that would you know,
eventually take his place in the family, maybe even in his view, be
the best of the good family members. Right. So, so he has

(22:52):
this great high school career and thenhe hurts his knee. I think he
originally thought he was going to recoverfrom that, but it was just the
kind of injury you couldn't recover from, and originally was taking pain meds that
ended up evolving into other things.Someone eventually a friend he has eventually introduced
him to the harder stuff, andnow he's a drug addict, not that
many years later, suffering from hisloss of his identity and who am I

(23:14):
now? You know it's interesting too. One of the things we don't do
when we struggle with identity is becausewe have not prepared ourselves in a number
of varied areas. And that's oneof the things the gospel does. In
other words, if I put allof my eggs in this football basket and
then I can't play football anymore,I got nothing to rely on. I
got nothing to put to lean on. And that's exactly what he did.

(23:37):
And he just didn't have any otherway to identify himself, and he was
doing but I also what you adelvesdo. He was doing inside out and
outside in it. It's not asthough we do one or the other exclusively.
We typically do a little bit ofboth. And he was doing that
right. He was saying, I'mpart of this family. I identify as
this family. Like I did thesame thing. We are a three generation

(23:59):
law enforcement family. If you're aWallace, especially if you're a gym Wallace,
you're a cop because there's three ofus. Yeah, and there's the
problem, right, there's the problemis that you you you now you're doing
that outside in. Also, hewas good at this, like it wasn't

(24:19):
like he learned it. He learneda lot of stuff, but he was
just innately gifted of Nate. Idon't want to use that word gifted if
you're not thinking there's a gifter orbut you know, he had innate skills
and so he was doing a littlebit of outside in and a little bit
of inside out. I felt thesame way. I felt like, I'm
good at making these visual cases forjuries. It's where my skill set is,

(24:44):
which is part of my family tradition. So we're both doing the outside
in and the inside out stuff.Would you say that typically with your identity,
people default to a subjective more Iguess selfish, look at it just
by nature. Yeah, well,I think what we do is all of
this is driven by pride, right, because it's so comparative. So what
we're all something going to do.So when you look at the studies on

(25:08):
identity, you'll see a couple ofthings. One, the definition about how
we perceive self is we were workingfor the most continuous and stable. That
word continuous and stable is in theAPA definitions on identity. So, okay,
that's interesting. That's why you don'twant to put your identity in something
that's not continuous and stable. That'snumber one. Two, you see that

(25:33):
the research is almost always interconnected,Like you can hardly ever study identity when
you're not also studying a some researchon value and purpose because value and purpose
are so connected to identity. Sothere's a couple of ways you can form
identity. Right. One, youcan say i'd be wise if we do

(25:56):
it this way. We say,like cool, I really think about it,
and then form your value and purposeafter you've decided who you are in
Christ. Okay, we don't dothat. What we typically do is the
opposite. We're doing something that we'regood at, gives us value and it's
our purpose, and we say that'swho I am. So instead of taking

(26:17):
our identity first and forming our valueand purpose from our identity, we're looking
at what we're valuable and purposeful andforming our identity off of that. And
then the problem, of course,is what happens we're no longer valuable in
that area, or you don't feellike that's your purpose, and now you're
struggling right now, it's like,oh, now what do I do?
So I always put it this waywhen I'm talking to groups. Let me

(26:38):
see what I have in my deskhere. If I said this remote,
do you know what this remote isfor? Yes? Well not really,
maybe you do? Yeah, well, actually this I have this on this
remote is for my lights back there. Yeah okay, But if you didn't
know that, if you didn't knowwhat this is for, I could use

(26:59):
a number of ways I could assignit its purpose and identity. I could
make it a doorstop. I couldprop up stuff with it. I could
use it to prop you know,I could I could form I could give
it some other purpose and it mightwork just fine in that regard. But
if you really want to know whatthis is for, you need to look
at the brand on it, andthen you're just going to google it and

(27:19):
then when you can find the website, you'll discover, oh, this is
for lights. Okay, well,it turns out that's true for all of
us always. If you want,the surest way to know what something's purpose
is is simply to refer to themanufacturer. Now, that's what we're not
doing here, is that we're notreferring if there if we are who Christianity

(27:41):
says, what christian says we are, well, then there's a manufacturer we
could refer to, and then wecould form our identity based on what the
manufacturer intended, because the manufacturer willtell you, yeah, you could use
it for those other things, butI intended it for this purpose, right,
and now you actually could use Notthat you can't assign value and assign

(28:03):
purpose two things incorrectly. We dothat all the time. The question is
like, what's the manufacturer's purpose?That's surprisingly yep, off remote remote control.
Yeah. This is one of thereasons that I like that I like
Detective Warner Willace is because of thesethese kinds of things. Right there.
There is a really simple conclusion you'vedrawn in the beginning of the book about

(28:26):
the difference between knowledge and wisdom.And I think this is something that you
know from a pastoral perspective that Iwish I would have learned earlier on,
because if I would have recognized whatother people were trying to tell me as
like applicable wisdom versus just like,oh, these are a few things I
need to look out for or whatever, just kind of input output, you

(28:47):
know, especially as a young guy, where you're like, all right,
old man, kind of an attitude, right, yeah, but you you
bring up this point that failure isthe root of wisdom. One of the
things I think, in especially whenwe're looking at our very curated views of

(29:07):
ourselves on social media, everything everythingis is perfect and it's yeah, and
and part of our identity is inlike what you've talked about, that comparison
that we have to others, whichmight be more of an epidemic than it's
ever than it ever has been,right, And comparison is absolutely the thief
of joy. And so when wewhen we see those kinds of things,

(29:29):
there is this the idea that youput forth that failure is the root of
wisdom. Will in a culture wherefailure is like the pinnacle of embarrassment,
it's the last thing that we wantto do right. Right, how do
how do those of us who areour parents, those of us who are
our pastors and leaders, how dowe give the people around us the room
to fail so that you know,they realize that that it's something that they

(29:55):
can actually learn from and not somethingthey should be ashamed of. You know,
it's so interesting when they when theya married couples and they ask women,
like, what what is the thingthey fear the most? It's almost
always some form of loss of relationshipconnectivity. When they ask men what we
fear the most, it's almost alwaysthe perception of failure. It's shame,

(30:15):
It's that I can't, I don'thave the ability to do this. So
so you're right, that's why Ithink we shun the idea. But here's
the good news is that, yes, failure is and there's been studies out
there. I cite these in thebook. This is a different chapter in
the book, So I cite thesethese studies that talk about how how often
failure as what opens the door tomaking improve small improvements and how many times

(30:40):
that successful people have to fail beforethey actually hit on the thing that takes
off. It's it's very it's it'sso interesting because it's not so much well
they just got they were just notlucky. No, it's actually that the
failing part of it. You knowthis also in team sports, right,
Like if you've got a team that'sundefeated, now they're in the NFL and
they're in week fifteen and they finallytake a loss, a lot of times

(31:02):
they'll say, you know, thatwas good for us because we needed that
loss before we enter the playoffs,because we're going to learn more from that
loss from the first than the firstfourteen wins. We now know what we
need to improve we didn't know before. And failure it has that ability for
us. It can be. Buthere's the good news. It doesn't have
to be your failure. Because welearn as much from the failure of others

(31:25):
as we do from our own failures. And so if you're just a keen
observer of failure, that can helpyou. But there's actually an aspect of
wisdom that I try to cite inthe book that I think is uniquely Christian.
So you could say, well,This is the whole point of the
book is there's fifteen attributes for humanflourishing that I try to expose with fifteen

(31:48):
crime stories and then support with fifteenbodies of scientific secular research that demonstrates that
this is what we think is trueabout human flourishing, and then finally show
how the Christian worldview has been sayingthis all along, that even if you
don't believe Christianity is true, thatyou'd be wise to live as though it
is, because it turns out humanflourishing is dependent on the traditional teaching of

(32:10):
Christianity, believe it or not.That's what this book is trying to do.
And one of those aspects, Ithink there are surely two that I
can think of off the top ofmy head that require a Christian worldview to
do well is the first chapter onwisdom is one of them. And here's
why. One of the components it'snot just knowledge and experience and failure being

(32:30):
willing to make what I call ageappropriate mistakes. It's okay to fail,
but you want to fail at thelevel that where you are. So if
you're a first year homicide detective andyou make some first year homicide detective mistakes,
no problem. But if you're aten year homicide detective and you're still
making first year homicide detective mistakes,we got a problem. It's like grown,
but you haven't grown yet. Y'sright. It needs to be age

(32:52):
appropriate failure. So that's okay.But here's the other thing. Could it
be said, Could I say there'sa wise way to do a kidnapping?
Now, I've talked to gangsters aboutthis issue, Like, I had one
who did a I did not inthe book, but I had one who
I remember they did a robbery ofa hotel in our town. It was

(33:14):
like one of these, like Ikind of like a haul. It was
like a one person hotel at night. She like a couple of people could
staff the hotel at night, soassuming behind the counter, maybe somebody in
maintenance, and that was it.So they came in the front door,
put her at gunpoint, but thesafe was in the back. So they
walked her out their front door,drove her around to the back of the
hotel, and entered the back officeto get to the safe. And just

(33:35):
that movement is legally now a kidnapping. Shit. They moved her against her
will. So now I've done arobbery and a kidnapping, and trust me,
the kidnapping part is far worse froma legal perspective in terms of time
you're not to serve than the robberywas. So they had done both.
Now the question that comes up afterwards, well, is there that was that
wise? Is there a wise wayto do a robbery? Now, in

(34:00):
one sense you could say, well, yeah, if you mean is there
a way to be more successful?But I think you could honestly ask is
it ever wise to do a robbery? In other words, there is a
fourth dimension to wisdom that most peopledon't think about, and it's it's the
moral pillar. There's actually one studyout of an Ivy League school I cite
in the book that talks about howthere's got to be a moral pillar into

(34:24):
the formation of wisdom because of thiskind of thing that some things there's not
wise to do based on their moralthe immoral nature. Okay, well,
then the question becomes, well,who gets to decide then on what is
moral? Because if the gangsters willsay it, they've got their own quoto
conduct. And it's sometimes appropriate todo a robbery or a kidnapping to retaliate

(34:46):
against another gang. So, inother words, if your moral foundation is
determined by a group or by aperson, then it's really possible to do
some stupid, unwise things, eventhough you might think are morally grounded.
Right. So this means then thatwe have to seek an objective, transcendent

(35:07):
source for moral truth to know ifit's true wisdom. I call it this
better wisdom. That means that reallythe best wisdom you're going to get is
going to be under some theistic viewin which you consider that moral pillar to
be a godly moral pillar, nota cultural moral pillar or a subset or
moral pillar. You know, theGang's code of ethics. You know,

(35:29):
if you're working in the East Coastin the old mafia days, you know
there were certain codes of conduct thatyou just didn't violate, and a lot
of it involved murdering people. Yeah, you know that was okay to do
in a certain sting. So that'swhy we have to have a transcendent moral
pillar. But that just means thatwe if you want to be really wise,
you want better wisdom, you haveto kind of ground it in something
more than you I'm curious what yourthoughts are on some of the recent comments

(35:52):
by guys think Richard Dawkins, whohave you know, a decade and a
half ago, were comeing out justvehemently against Christianity than anyone who like bought
into faith of any kind, justshowed that they were intellectually inept. And
we've seen this shift and maybe itstarted with you know, Peter Bagoshen and

(36:13):
James Lindsay and Helen pluck Rose isthey're kind of making this shift back towards
towards that. But Dawkins has recentlycome out and said one that he's proud
that he comes from a Christian nationand that that's the foundation of the morality
and he's from the UK. Themorality of the UK, the way that
they write and structure their laws.You know, when we're seeing people like
that make those type of comments,does that one do you think that that

(36:37):
means that somebody like Dawkins Because obviouslya lot of influential Christian YouTubers and influencers
and those kind of things, Asmuch as I hate to use that terminology,
they're like, oh my gosh,this much means that the Dowkins is
on the path towards Christianity. Yeah, he is reachable, Yeah, Yeah,
First of all, everyone is reachable. There's no one who's beyond the
path that God can't reach them.So perfect. So that part I get,

(36:58):
And I think what he's saying here, it may not be that he's
he's actually favoring. He may justbe saying in some sense as you read
through his comments, well this isa lot better than Islam. That seems
to be where he stands in alot of positions, right, But I
think he holds a position kind oflike my dad, where he doesn't think
it's true, but it's useful.My dad always thought of Christianity as a

(37:19):
useful delusion, not true, butit will help you raise your kids.
He'll go to church with you.He'll sing the hymns. He likes the
hymns. He likes the kind ofcultural world of view that Christianity actually founds,
that morality encourages. Yeah, youknow, so he so he would
go, and he you know,he was. He has enough cultural awareness

(37:39):
of what what the hymns are thathe could stand in church and sing a
hymn. I always wonder how helearned that, because I don't I never
went to church with my dad never. I don't think i've ever attended a
church service. Even No, hedid come to our church when I was
the lead pastor really he one weekendhe happened to be in town, and
so he was there and he's sayingwith us. So I think that,

(38:01):
But honestly, growing up, thatwas just not who my dad was.
He'd be more likely to drop youoff if you got somebody who wants to
go to church than he would nevergo in. So I think that the
issue is that Dawkins is kind oflike that, that this has some But
isn't Jordan Peterson in a similar way, or I don't believe it's true,
but boy, it sure seems tocapture what's true about human nature and leverage

(38:25):
it for our flourishing. Well,there's the question then, So is it
just unbelievable coincidence that the principles thatare taught happen to align with the principles
that the sociologists have determined contribute tohuman flourishing? Is that a coincidence?
I would say that if you madean overarching, humulative case for the Christian

(38:47):
worldview, it's going to include alot of things. It's going to include
and I've been speaking about it thisway publicly now since I wrote this book.
It's going to include the case forGod's existence, and they'll have big
five or six or eight different piecesof evidence you'll use to make that that's
going to point toward Christianity being true. The case for the reliability of scripture

(39:07):
is going to point toward Christianity beingtrue. The case for the resurrection is
going to point toward Christianity being true. The case for the over arching,
unbelievable, unparalleled impact of Jesus onculture that roll about that book called person
of Interest, that's going to pointtoward it being true. And then there's
another piece of this, which isthat if it is true that the Bible
should describe us accurately, it shoulddescribe the world and people in it exactly

(39:30):
as the world is and as peopleare. And it seems to do that.
Yeah, soul, you could soyou could reverse engineer this and you
could say, hey, well,if this does seem to create the best
environment. But I still think rightnow the doctors will probably saying, well,
yeah, this is the creation ofhumans who happen to recognize what creates

(39:50):
the best environment and then built outa religious system around it. That's probably
where he is right now. Sohe doesn't think it's true, but he
thinks it's useful. So I'm kindof a realist about him. I don't
know that this is really it meansanything, but I think at the same
time, I mean, if youhadn't known me at the age of thirty
five, just how much how hostileI was my profanity and my views of

(40:12):
Christians, I don't think you wouldever guess I ever become one. Yet
within eighteen months here I am.So God can do anything, So I'm
not going to put it past Godto to but I often think it's harder
for God to do some things becausewe continue to make a mess of them.
And the more we talk about Docusas though he's on the verge of

(40:34):
becoming a Christian, I wonder ifwe aren't making a mess of this too
and just delaying the inevitable, becauseyou know, he's going to look at
all this at some point, he'sgoing to react to that, and he's
going to say, no, I'mnot a Christian for crying out loud,
you know. Yeah, so,yeah, I realize how much everybody wants
me on your team, but Idon't Yeah, yeah, exactly how flattering
it is. Apparently you like mebecause you want me on the team.

(40:54):
Yeah, that's like when Eli Manningwas drafted to the Chargers and they were
like that, He's like, we'renot going there. You can send me
to New York and then they'll makea trade for it. Right that the
same type of that, right,I'll said, is that? But I
mean, I think that this istrue. I think we have we have
we have hope for a couple ofguys, you know, for him and
for Jordan Peterson, because we Andlet me just tell you what I think

(41:16):
is. This is another chapter ofthis book. And I wrote this chapter
because I saw this issue of celebritythat I really wanted to talk about.
But it was getting here, goingto this place. This is where I
was wanting you to get really okay, well good. So there was a
guy named Polone who was a gangster. It was a really well known gangster

(41:36):
and this for a number of reasons, both based on who he was and
his family and how he looked andall this stuff. So but his life
didn't turn out well. And thischapter kind of talks about this. But
what I was interested in is ishow much celebrity pride affects us, and
it also affects people from So thisis a worldview. Our worldview is a

(42:01):
worldview that leverages the one thing thatpromotes human flourishing more than any other thing,
and that is this weird attribute thathardly anyone will just guess off the
top of their head, which iscalled humility, because it's the antidote for
celebrity. It's the opposite of celebrity. It's the humility. And most of
the guys I work who think somuch of themselves that they do all kinds

(42:21):
of stupid things. This is whatthey lack. They lack humility. And
most of the people, for example, who will not who are resistant to
the claims of Christianity, it's ahumility issue. I'm just going to say
that it is. I mean,so when you talk to when you hear
people pontificate and explain how smart theyare and try to explain smartly, how

(42:45):
all of the data that seems tobe dependent upon the truth of a Christian
worldview can be explained some other way, through psychological phenomena or through whatever science,
whatever it may be. It's oftenthat lack of humility that's keeping a
m because because it turns out oneof the things that humble people do more
than anyone else is we learn.We learn because we are not so proud

(43:07):
that we can't be taught anything.Humility is the key to learning, is
the only key. It's been statisticallyproven. You'll get better grades. You'll
actually there's one study that shows youwill be able to discern truth from error
at a higher level, at ahigher rate if you're simply humble. You'll
have deeper relationships, you'll live longer, you'll have better mental health, you'll

(43:28):
make more money, you'll be abetter employee, a better employer. Generally,
we resist people who are proud,yet we watch them on YouTube and
we often will follow them because wethink, oh, this guy's smart.
What it might just be that smartis what's keeping him from the truth is
that you start to over value yourown ability to process information, and you

(43:51):
start to think, hey, thisis a good take. I like my
takes better, you know, Andthen before long you're not listening to truth
anymore. Like you can't see thatthat's standing right in front of you because
you're just so full of yourself thatI would rather look Am I guilty of
this? Yeah? As a matterof fact, these fifteen attributes in this
book are fifteen things I don't dowell. I don't know anybody who does

(44:12):
any of these things well. Theseare targets we got to aim at,
but we very seldom ever can hitthem. Most of the time we are
just the opposite of what these fifteenthings would tell us. And I'm the
same way. So when I hearpeople who are just love to wait for
you to stop talking so they canshare their next theory, I see myself

(44:34):
in that. Yeah, And Ithink we all need to see ourselves in
that, because in the end,this is the one worldview that happens to
leverage from start to finish, theone most significant thing you can do for
human flourishing. Was that a coincidencethat it turns out that there's no other
world, no other worldview that leverageshumility like Christian sanity. It starts with

(45:01):
the first admission that you're a sinner. That takes humility. It starts with
you having to bend your need.Am I there's a God and you're not
him? That takes humility. Itcontinues because you can't earn anything under this
worldview. Every other spiritual worldview hasgot a series of steps you can take
to attain what the best this worldviewoffers. And even under secularism, it's

(45:23):
meritorious. You could earn your wayto the top. This is a worldview.
And by the way, once youdo that, you just separate yourself
from others. Right, yeah,I know I make more money than you.
It's that whole identity thing of comparison. Yet this is a worldview that
said, no, your identity isin Christ now, so stop comparing number
two. You're going to be giventhis because you could never earn it,

(45:44):
and you're going to be given thisas a free gift. Why does Paul
say that so that no one canboast? You're going to take that whole
pride thing out from under me.Now, just turns out that that one
act of humility, being humble willcontribute to the best life you can live.
And it turns out that there's noworldview that is more grounded in humility

(46:05):
than the Christian worldview. It mightbe that your designer has designed the truth
is such a way that you canapprehend it through scripture and actually become the
best version of you you can become. Because it's a coincidence. It's not
just a useful delusion. It mightjust be that this is the design of
the designer and you are the designed. But I think for a lot of
people in this All Star I wastalking about some of these more famous skeptics

(46:30):
and atheists and agnostics, what's keepingthem out is this lack of humility.
Do you think you cannot pursue humility? You cannot say here's I cannot say
to you guys, here's how youcan become humble. All I can say
is it's a realization. It's aproper it's what Spurgeon says, the proper
assessment of who you are. Doyou find that Christians struggle with this?

(46:52):
I mean, I know Christians arepeople, obviously, but on a broad
spectrum, you know, you geta lot of non believers that are are
very critical of Christians and how theyact. Do we not help with that
in the way we live our lives? Is that something you see a lot
of Well, I think that wehave to be uber careful about the same

(47:12):
things that everyone needs to be carefulabout generally, only because people are looking
at us and we are far morelikely to be hypocrites than any other group.
And here's why we have a standardthat is unparalleled. If the standard
is perfection, it's God's holy perfectnature. That's the standard. Well,

(47:37):
if your standard was lower, youcould probably hit the standard once in a
while, but the standard is notlow. That's number one. Number two
is we publicly profess it, soeveryone knows our worldview and what the standard
is. They all know what thestandard is. Look, there's some people
they're not Christians. I don't knowwhat they believe. I have no idea
what their personal standards, so Icouldn't tell you if they're acting hypocritically because

(47:58):
I don't know what they're standard wasto begin with. But everyone knows the
public standard of Christians, so youcan spot us when we're hypocritical much faster
than you can spot other groups whereyou don't know what their standard is.
So I think that for us,we are going to appear to break that
more often. But the reality ofit is is that we have certain because

(48:20):
there are no gatekeepers anymore, andbecause you know, you don't become famous
by getting that landing in one ofthose fifteen prime time episodes of a TV
show on the three legacy networks likethirty years ago, if you weren't at
eight o'clock or nine o'clock on ABC, NBC or CBS, you weren't a
star. You didn't have an audienceof followers. Now what are we doing

(48:44):
here. You've got an audience.You've got an audience on YouTube. There's
no gatekeeper. If you work hardenough, you can become a celebrity.
This is open to everyone without gatekeepers. This is also true for pastors.
As a matter of fact, wejustify usually that we want the larger platform.

(49:05):
You know, there's three things thisis a different chapter of the book
that people do. That they exploit, that they idolize, They worship at
their own peril. And it issex, money in the pursuit of power.
Now, most of us as pastors, will see the danger in sex
and money, but they don't seethe danger in this aspect of the pursuit
of power called celebrity seeking. Theyactually think that's a positive. Let me

(49:29):
hire someone, in fact, toget me more exposure so I can preach
the gospel to a larger audience,when in fact, that pursuit of celebrity
is another itch that if you scratchit, you will scratch the other two
inches I don't know very few peoplewho don't become famous who then aren't tempted
sexually or tempted by misusing money.The temptations weren't even there before they were

(49:51):
famous. Then they become famous,and suddenly they've opened the door to other
temptations. So we have to Ifyou know what we fall, and how
we fall and why we fall,it becomes a little bit easier to protect
yourself from falling. But we don'ttypically protect ourselves from celebrity. And even
as pastors, you know, we'veall got a podcast, We've all got

(50:13):
look I've done that. I mean, this is we're all guilty of this.
So this is why in the lasti'd say three years, even though
you know I run in the samecircles as all those other apologists you talk
about, I've just said, okay, we're just going to step back.
We're going to start talking about theseissues publicly, and we're going to do
less public events, because that,to me is the most uncomfortable aspect of

(50:37):
this is that you stand on astage and people think you're something. Now
I know the truth. I'm notsomething. I'm just another person like you
who's making observations who sees the worldaround me and I want to talk about
it, but I wish I couldtalk about it with that I'm going to
take a stage. So we're tryingto do more of that, right,
Let's see if we can. AndI just love I think also just my

(50:59):
vanity as such as I get older, do I really want to see myself
yacking on a screen anymore? Idon't, you know, So that has
kind of helped me to step backa little bit. But I think this
is my other concern, and itreally started with Robi. It started with
Robbie and it started with Mark Criscoll, two guys who I thought a lot

(51:19):
of at one point, and thatit's been an eye opening And by the
way, this isn't a different chapterin the book. This is true for
all of us. Look, guys, there's no good guys and bad guys.
We all have the killer inside.I've never really met anybody working cold
cases who wasn't pretty much like everybodyelse, just like us. Just as

(51:42):
a matter of fact, I haveyou for thirty years, thirty five years.
They've been excellent citizens, and youwould like to have them over for
dinner, and the people when youtake them to jail, are like,
there's no way I've got suspects Itook to jail. Who's the victim's family
said there's no way. They thoughtof them like a sudden in alow.
There's no way that guy killed mydaughter. No way, because you can't

(52:05):
see it, because we're all thatguy. You know. That is one
of the hard things about law enforcement, I think, is that you know,
you drive down the street and youtake a call, and you're at
a house on the middle of thestreet, and it's a nice neighborhood,
and you pulled into that house andyou see what a train wreck is going
on inside that house. This domesticsituation is such, and wow, how
messy our lives are. And thenyou go back out to your car and

(52:29):
you get in your car. You'vesettled that call, and now you're driving
away and you go, wow,that house looks like every other house on
this street and on my street.And then you start to wonder how many
other houses are just as messy asthat, And it's far more than you'd
like to think. And that's justbecause the fallen nature of who we are.

(52:52):
But I think we have to askthat question, and I try to
ask an answer. One chapter ofthis book is who are you? Are
you in innately pure, clean,innocent being that is corrupted by families and
situations and environments and governments and systems. So you know, we got to
be careful about all that. We'vegot to restructure all those things to protect

(53:14):
the innate goodness of humans. Orare you the kind of train wreck mess
that will mess up every family,every institution, every including religious institutions,
and every system. Because if that'sthe case, then you start to form
systems differently. You form them likewe did when we form the country,
with hopefully sufficient checks and balances,because you know, the human nature is

(53:35):
such that if I can corrupt this, I will, right. And by
the way, I'm not quick toreplace systems because I know that whatever I
replace the system with, I'm justgoing to find that's going to get corrupted
too, right. I mean,there is no system that humans haven't corrupted.
There isn't. So I would pickthe system that has the most checks
and balances because we have to knowsomething about human nature before we form the

(53:57):
system. And don't assume the bestin us, because we will disappoint you.
Yeah, that is one of thethings that I've always found a challenge
the rebel in me that's like,yes, I know that I need things
for checks and balances. But we'llget two or three years down the road
and then I'll have another meeting withwith our elders and our ministry team,
and I'm like, hey, guys, I just want y'all to know we're
at the point now where I amlooking for loopholes. So let's have a

(54:22):
conversation about like the things that needto happen. And I do think,
you know, to your point,the honest self assessments, but then also
like having people around you that you'rewilling to be honest with to say those
kinds of things. Right if Idon't say that, you know, we've
got a twenty five hundred dollars spendinglimit without it, you know, having
to go to a congregational vote orwhatever. That is where I'm like,
Okay, so this is the onething I want to accomplish, and I

(54:45):
am already thinking about how I canbreak this up into five pieces so I
don't need the vote. So like, let's let's have the you know,
like, let's have the conversation aboutit, because that is that's kind of
where where our mind's hed. AndI think that that's such an awesome point,
man. Just so you know,I love watching you yack on a
screen and we could do it allday. We do want to be respectful
of your time. We thank youso much for coming on the show.

(55:06):
But as you well know, wehad all of our interviews with us with
a segment that we call controlled routing. Now, this is just a series
of rapid fire questions. You cananswer them with as short as lengthy,
and answer as you would like.To expect nothing from us by way of
reply or response. As we getinto it. I'm going to send it
over to Josh to kick us off, all right. So I'm just curious

(55:30):
about what kind of pushback you've gottenover the years and how you've dealt with
it the goods the bads have youalways dealt with it right correctly, that
type of thing, Okay. SoI get pushback from people who are online
who are not Christians, who areusually atheists, who will literally lie about
my background to try to make toleverage a platform that they have, and

(55:52):
that's okay. I never I neverrespond. I've learned early on you listen
to the Academy it's kind of amind over matter. I don't mind it.
You don't matter because if you don'ttake that approach, everyone who cusses
at you in the street, you'regonna swinging on them. You can't do
that. You have to be like, you know, just a really really
thick skin, even when they saythings that aren't true. So, yes,
I have. That's been my responsealways is that, Hey, I'm

(56:15):
on mission. I'm going to dowhat I know. I don't respond to
lives, just don't do it.Yeah I have. I've seen some cartoonized
versions of you that a few peoplehave sent me there, like you've had
this guy on your show, andI'm like, actually, that's a cartoon.
I haven't had any cartoons. Thereal person who that's behind and the
person who's hosting the show is alsoa cartoon. So if you're trusting cartoons

(56:36):
more than the real thing, thenmaybe you're the one with the issue.
I'm noticing in the background there,we've got a silver YouTube play button.
Man, when did that happen?I guess about almost a year ago.
Wow, yeah, so what's that? What's that feel like? Now?
You just get thousand people on YouTubeand then they send you one of these
things, anybody. Yeah, someonesay you should put it behind you because

(57:00):
some people will know what that is. And I don't think you're the first
person's ever said anything about well youdon't think anyone knows what that is.
Yeah, I know exactly what itis. Yeah, so you're officially an
influencer now congratulations. Oh yeah.You know what's interesting about that is that
I don't even manage my YouTube channel. I have a guy who I support

(57:20):
who is doing that. We don'tget any profit or anything from that channel.
We just hopefully can help a youngman launch a business of his own,
and that's what we do with that. So that's pretty cool. It's
been Yeah, it's been great.I mean what's great about all of this
is if you start with the pension, if you just start with you have
freedom because we don't have intuitions.I'm not changing anything. I'm not if

(57:46):
I've made an extra million dollars thisyear, I tell you, I'm not
kidding. I'm not even sure Ido any remodeling around here. I'm not
doing nothing, Okay. I likemy life the way it is, and
I'm still driving Hondai's and I'm happyto drive hondays, I'm gonna be fan
upon days. Yeah, And Ijust feel like, why would I overspend?
I remember one time I was gettingready to buy an F fifty.
I wanted to buy an F onefifty truck, and I told my son

(58:07):
David, I'm gonna buy an Fone fifty for my sixtieth birthday. He
said, you can't do that,So why not? He said, Well,
you were a pastor, like you'rea Christian leader. Do you want
people to see you're driving an Fone fifty branding? Those things cost like
eighty grand back then. Yeah,I'm like, wow, I didn't know
my much attention to this kind ofstuff, but it reminded me that,

(58:30):
yeah, you know, you're You'reright, there's probably a certain level beyond
which we ought not live. That'skind of what we're talking about before,
is that people are watching and wehave a higher standard, and do I
really need that? So I didn'tbuy it? Yeah, that's why we
uh, that's why we buy usedand we know a guy. That's what
I was here. Start used andwe start start with a pension and then

(58:50):
move to used, and we knowa guy and let somebody else take the
losses on all of that. Ithink that's that's right. That's the way
to do Yeah, that's the wayto do it. All right, let's
talk energy drinks all right, Okay, two part question. What are your
favorites? And how many do youdrink a day? Okay, I'm only
I only drink one. Okay,okay, this is it. I usually
try to pour it in a cuphere so nobody knows that I'm nice.

(59:14):
Yeah, all right, Well,like as though, but you know these
aren't that bad. You know thoseCelsias drinks. I was drinking those.
Those are ridiculously hoigh cats. Andso I tried to kind of ratchet it
back to one, and I asked, you know how I started that.
My dad came out from my son'swedding years ago and he said, let's
go get an energy drink a monster. I said, what the heck is
that? I didn't know what itwas. So we go and we get

(59:36):
an energy He's like, you know, he's twenty one years older than me,
and that he was drinking one aday. And this started a fad
with my family that every we callhim Opah. I'm now the Opah because
I'm the old guy. But butwe used to always at two o'clock every
day, we would toast to whoeveris in the energy drink circle. And
usually it just started off as meand David and Jimmy, my two boys

(59:59):
and Opah. So we used toif we were gone, we say this
is the open and Jimmy and Davidand I would drink an energy drink.
You know, that's awesome. Thisbecame a daily ritual, okay, whenever
we're together. I have my daughterhere today, she's part of that circle.
Nice, so she came over,we popped an energy drink and we
toasted to the people who aren't here. Do you drink one before? When

(01:00:20):
you were a pastor? Did youdrink one before you got on the pulpit?
Uh? Yeah, I used to. It's like a comfort food sometimes.
So if I'm traveling and I'm outat some church, I sometimes like,
well make sure I have an energydrink in my bag just because I
feel like I'm at home. Isthat stupid? No? No, no,
no, no, It's like acomfort food. So no coffee though,
just one energy No, No,I drink coffee there, My guy

(01:00:44):
right there on the level. Itwasn't for caffeine, that would be like
a puddle. You don't have totell me nothing about it. Yeah.
I think that's the one reason Ihaven't become a Mormon is because of caffeine.
Like all the other stuff is reallynot a factor. An engine full
already arrest and I'll have to stopall of this, but until then,
we'll drink. Yeah, we needto get you on on some of the

(01:01:05):
Jocko Goes that we've been on becausethey're they're low caffeine, but they're they're
really good, very clean and sugarfree. Oh you know what I what
are they call Jocko go? Yeah, it's a I don't think I've ever
seen that. Okay, Okay,I'll shoot me an email. I'll get
okay sent out you can. Yeah. Last question, as we're wrapping up,

(01:01:28):
what are you learning on your guitar? Like the last couple of times
we've talked to you, you saidyou haven't been able to play much.
Like, what's what's going on inthe music daughter for Jim? Okay,
so it's all stupid stupid songs,Okay, Like like what, Okay,
I'm gonna tell you something. Okay, you're gonna get really geeked out on
this. This is I have mygrandad are four days a week, so
all of our musical taste have shiftedto she's thirteen months old. So let

(01:01:52):
me just tell you I'm ready.There's a guy out there. Okay,
huh, I'm gonna I'm gonna turnyou on to some really good stuff.
Now. Wait. His name isBrent Holmes h O. L M.
E. S Low. He doestunes for kids. He's got an album
of Hawaiian Island to island tunes.It's like volcano juice written that this is

(01:02:22):
he's got this song. This ishow bad this is, this is how
old I'm getting. Now, it'slike we listen to this on a loop
basically every time we're with you know, with our our daughter, our granddaughter
Emma. And there's a song thathe said does It's called the Kooky Little
Coconut. Okay, now you're everyonethinks I'm an idiot. Now, thanks

(01:02:42):
so much for that. You're well, but that's what we listen to now.
And so those are easy to learnthe guitar, and you can just
literally put it on and sit downwith your guitar and you could be playing
it as before they end of thesong, you already know how to play
it, and you just play itand then then you can play it all
the time. I'm looking at itright now, the kookie little coconuting,
you know what, don't play it, don't don't play until right. Yeah,
but I'm telling you that's that's agood one. Also, listen to

(01:03:05):
Volcano Juice and tell you don't lovethat song. Juice and Coconut, those
are my two favorite. All right, I'm just let it go there.
You know, watch Bluey Oh no, I know, I don't, I
don't. Okay, this is whatI tell you. We don't have a
lot of media. We are likewe are trying to go anti media.
But the only exception we love music. We want to The Bluey theme song

(01:03:28):
is really good and it's just yeah, and it's just a it's just a
major scale. But if you lookup the Blue theme song instrument parade,
the guitar solo and the instrument paradeis really so good it's unbelievable. I'm
looking it up right now. Andthere are several guys who are like shredhead
metal guitarists that do tutorials on thekids shows right up. Yeah, yeah,

(01:03:54):
it's yeah. The guitar solo andthe blue theme instrument parade is is
him? Okay, I'll look atlyget off with you guys, all all
all right, awesome, Jim,thanks so much for coming on The show
Man. Thanks withoutely appreciate it.We'll do it again, AhR brother,
thank you all right. Later onJay Freaking Warner Wallace, he was pretty

(01:04:15):
awesome. Dude. So this isyour first time getting to talk to him?
First time? Is this the wasthis book the first time you heard
about him whenever we we gave youthe copy of this or had you heard
about him from some of his otherstuff? So yes and no. That's
an interesting way to answer a binaryquestion. When we talked about that,
right right, Yeah, when wetalked about it, I was like,
no, I don't know anything abouthim. But as I started researching him

(01:04:38):
so I could be prepared to beon here, I was familiar with him.
Yeah. I had not read anyof his books, but I had
seen some of his videos. Ihave a couple of other friends that are
are big fans and have been tryingto get me to read his books from
I had some familiarity with him.That's cool. Like the first time we
talked about interviewing him. This wasseveral years ago when the book Person of

(01:04:59):
Interest came out. My my secretaryis a huge consumer of Dateline and he's
Dateline's most featured cold case detective.I found that out. Yes, I
was researching. Yeah. So wewere talking about some things and I was
like, yeah, this book cameout and it's this guy. And she's
like I was, and he's acold case detective. She's like, let
me see his picture. She's like, gay, I see him all the

(01:05:19):
time. Yeah, he's on TV. He's not on TV. It's like,
oh, yeah, cool. SoI had note nothing from the date
Line thing, but we we foundout about him from like I said,
from Professor Nancy Pearcy is brilliant.The new book is called The Truth in
True Crime. It is out onZondervan. You can get it on Amazon.
It's on some library apps right now. So if you're one of those

(01:05:40):
like like me and Daney Josh,we look at the library app get the
audio versions, those kinds of thingsto just help with the ease of life.
It's out there, or you canget a direct from from the publisher.
Make sure that you go check outJim's website. Coldcase Christianity dot com,
where he makes a lot of theresources from this book available for free
so that you can use it toteach your congregations, of your small groups

(01:06:01):
of those kinds of things. Josh, thanks for thanks for coming and hanging
out. Man. Yeah, thanksfor letting me go. Yeah, I
greatly appreciate it. Thank you guysfor watching and listening. Hopefully we will
be doing a little bit more revand rap as you're kind of revamping things
and coming back to make sure thatyou like subscribe ding a little bell.
Leave us a comment and let usknow whether or not you're happy we're back

(01:06:21):
or whether you think we need togo away again. Either way, I'm
new here. Yeah, I don'thelp us any algorithm hurt my feelings right
off that you're not gonna hurt Jim'sapparently, So you guys, y'all stay
hard, keep jamming, and we'llsee it. This is Jay Warner Wallace
and I just got done doing anepisode with Reverend and the Reprobate, which
is a show you should never listento it why because it's basically being led

(01:06:43):
by the most hated group in allof America, white heterosexual males. There's
no point in listening to them,and I'm one of those. Is about
it, So just don't listen toany of us. Don't ever, don't
listen to any of us.