July 21, 2025 • 50 mins
The conversation around PEX piping has generated a LOT of opinions on this channel. We thought the episode with Eric Aune would be the last on the topic, but inspector Jon Bolton reached out to us regarding material failures and class action lawsuits that are still ongoing surrounding the product. So, we figured we'd bring him on for a rebuttal of sorts. But we want to kick the conversation to YOU guys? As inspectors, have we reached the point of discovery where a PEX disclaimer is warranted? Or are we still sorting out and improving a product that has a strong future use case? Sound off in the comments!
Oh and if you're in the Dallas area tonight, go hear Matt speak at the regional BS and Beer event happening this evening! BS = Building Science 😉Â
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, guys, thanks for joining us again here on the ride along today.
We are talking with Mr.
John Bolton in the third of a three part series, unintentional three part series aboutpecs plumbing.
And this is going to really kind of put a bow tie a little bow on the conversation.
But we appreciate everybody that's chimed in on this.
I mean, this is something that has been getting all kinds of interest Matt.
(00:22):
Yeah, I mean, it's a hot topic and I think that, you everyone has a bunch of opinions andto be honest with you, I think, I don't know how everyone else feels, but I have learned
quite a bit um from people commenting on it and chiving in on it and other people'sopinions.
So, I mean, I think that's what this is all about.
We should keep going.
Now I definitely agree, but John, thanks for jumping on.
This whole thing kicked off when you and I talked, think, Inspection Fuel last year aboutpex plumbing, man.
(00:47):
And people have some very strong opinions on this.
man, you are not kidding.
It's like, you guys, here's where I come from.
I learned something and I brought it to people.
And I said, hey, brothers and sisters, inspectors all over the place, this is some stuff Ilearned and you might want to look at it.
And every time I do, man, the attacks are just brutal sometimes.
(01:13):
you're all laughing because you've all heard them.
And some of them are just rank.
uh
extremely unprofessional and I'm like this doesn't make any sense and I'm just trying totell you something.
That is the internet though.
mean, like, you know, I mean, there, can't put an opinion out there without somebodygiving some ridiculous uneducated opinion on it.
(01:36):
Look, the fact of the matter is we can have a difference of opinion.
And I think that that is good.
I encourage differences opinions and for us to talk about this kind of things and seeother sides of it.
But without like somebody just kind of coming out uneducated and just throwing a wholebunch of nonsense at us.
But that happens.
I deal with that on a regular basis.
(01:57):
Now it does.
But before we get into sharing opinions here one more time again, we want to hear y'alls.
We want to hear y'alls keep it respectful y'all seriously.
I mean, ah there's we're all here to help each other.
And honestly, the position of this show is to be as helpful as possible to home inspectorsin this industry that want to be successful.
Okay, there's all kinds of drama online.
We've actually taken some flack for not getting involved in it.
(02:19):
We won't.
I'm just going to tell you all right now.
We don't right?
We're here to be as helpful as possible.
to as many people as possible.
ah but we're gonna kick it off real quick with the drink of the day because John, I gotyou hooked on something man.
And you're welcome.
That's all I'm gonna say what are you sipping on?
You did and you know, I've got to send you that video.
(02:43):
I don't know if Matt knows the story, but when we're doing the you don't know the story.
OK, so we're doing the fireside chat thing and I know you.
I listen to the show right?
So I called Brad and I said, hey dude, what's your you know what you drink?
What's your favorite drink?
Because he was going to come over here to my place and I wanted to be the hostess with themost of right and he says.
(03:05):
in old fashioned and I'm like, okay, I'll figure it out.
I've never had one before ever in my life.
So I literally go to ABC Liquor and I go, I have a friend coming over his favorite is oldfashioned, how do I make them?
And he goes, well, do you know?
And I go, no, I know nothing.
He says, okay, you need this, you need this and you need this.
I said, done.
(03:25):
And it brought home the stuff.
And that was the drink of the day on that episode, Brad showing John how to make
this old fashioned and like all of a sudden he had me hooked.
You know, I've been making them ever since and that's what I'm drinking today is a reallynice old fashioned but with a twist.
(03:47):
This is one with maple syrup.
is just chef's kiss.
Awesome.
I've got no problem with that.
I like adding a little bit of sweetness, obviously, whenever I make a cocktail, usually,and an old-fashioned definitely calls for that.
I think maple syrup is a really good addition.
So cheers to that.
What you got, Matt?
well, me?
See, I'm on location right now.
I am in Grapevine, Texas right now.
(04:08):
I'm out of town.
I'm not in my stomping grounds.
So I've got minimal supplies with me, right?
And so today, I have just Wild Turkey 101 in a cup.
Neat.
Cheers.
go, but we're going to toast to what you are going to be doing there.
That's true.
So yeah, I'm in town because tomorrow I am speaking from four to six at Oak HighlandsBrewery at the BS and beer two year anniversary of the DFW DFW chapter.
(04:36):
And I want to explain BS and beer and what that is, cause that can sound like somethingit's not.
And I don't think there's enough people to understand that like the BS in BS and beerstands for building science.
The reason why they have
this BSNBR meetup and there's different chapters all throughout the US and even in Canada.
They meet up to discuss building practices, building science, and uh just network togethera community of people that like to learn, very smart people that like to teach, and just
(05:06):
like to share what they do and what we can do to build better.
uh so yeah, building science, the building science community, they have chapters allthroughout the US, like I say, and in Canada.
find one of your local chapters.
I encourage inspectors to become a part of this because as inspectors we can learn a tonabout what's going on inside the walls that may be causing the problems that we're finding
(05:32):
during our inspections.
I love it, man.
That's fantastic.
Anchor grass to you.
Let me know how the topic goes.
We are we're going to wait to talk about it on the next episode.
Yeah, definitely.
is in the DFW area tomorrow, that is the 21st of July, four to six, I'll be speaking atthe Oak Highlands Brewery.
You're all welcome.
It's a, anybody can come.
(05:52):
So come on out.
Fantastic, man, dude, I'm looking forward to it.
I'm just sitting here.
be today, because this is going to come out tomorrow, which will be today.
This is happening today, Monday.
What are you drinking, Brad?
man.
So I am sitting here in Florida and if y'all see me dabbing here, uh like I'm full gospelpreacher, you know, I'm just getting going a little bit, you know, the Holy Spirit's just
(06:17):
moving.
You know, it's only because my AC's been out for three days and the part magically doesn'tcome in until tomorrow.
Isn't it amazing how contractors suddenly the part just shows up on Monday?
I bet it was there today, you if I was being honest, but I don't know.
(06:38):
You don't want to pay for that part.
yeah, so.
Sunday part.
That Sunday part's a lot more expensive.
That's it.
But I need this a bit extra then because of that.
You know, I talked about this in the last episode.
It's a rum old fashioned, which I think, you know, John being as we are Floridians overhere, it's it fits for a culture.
I love bourbon.
(06:59):
You know, that's definitely a heart of the country spirit.
But when I showed up in Florida and I was looking at the bourbon and whiskey selectionsand Scotches, I'm like, is dwarfed by
by the rum selection down here.
We're in the Caribbean, man, and we're in the tropics.
So rum old fashioned, it's on the sweet side.
(07:20):
you don't like sweeter cocktails, it might not be for you, but I think it adds a reallydifferent experience to it.
Super, super approachable and very dangerous.
Because they go down really sweet.
old fashioned.
I've had a tequila old fashioned before.
So I can see where like that pivot in alcohol and it doesn't make a big difference whatspirit you choose.
(07:42):
um Especially, mean, bourbons even, but I mean, like if you go from tequila to, you know,a rum, I can see that being a really big difference and make a really interesting
cocktail.
I'm looking forward to trying it.
Yeah, man, tequila old fashions just get me in trouble and then I express opinions thatpeople don't like and then it turns into fights, know, which were.
(08:05):
Let's do that.
Yeah, maybe that's what happens online when when you see these inspectors they get intokeyboard war fights with each other.
They all drink it tequila old fashioned y'all need to stop it.
Okay, we're here to elevate the dialogue, not not lower it to the lowest commondenominator.
But anyway.
opinions.
Let's give some opinions.
John, we have been talking about PEX plumbing.
(08:28):
we had a guest on, Eric Ony last time, master plumber up in Minnesota.
And I feel like regionally, that affects different people's preference in materials,right?
His was a preference of a hybrid kind of approach to using copper and PEX.
He wasn't as opposed to it.
Down here in Florida, water chemistry is so different.
(08:48):
uh Water table and soil content are so different.
again, you have a bit more of caution towards it.
And you sent us some really, really insightful stuff ah that kind of supports the positionthat you made previously when we talked about this on the show, in that uh this is not a
(09:10):
foolproof material.
Yeah, that's true.
And you know, the funny part was, and I completely respect your master plumber guy.
He does what a lot of us can't do and I totally respect.
Okay, so I don't mean anything ill towards him whatsoever.
(09:32):
And I do realize that there may be some regional differences.
Matter of fact, I was talking with Ruben Saltzman one time and he's in the same Minnesota.
area, right?
And he consulted his plumber on this because we were having the same conversations and hisplumber was telling him he doesn't have some of these issues and some of that makes sense.
(09:53):
Okay, there is a long list of issues with PECS and actually let me back up one second andsay, listen, I am not here to fight.
I'm here to inform.
Okay, I'm not I'm not supporting one manufacturer, you know, or one brand, one type ofplumbing, copper.
CPVC, PVC, anything like that.
(10:14):
None of it matters to me.
All I want to do is say, hey guys, listen, there's something going on here and you need tolook.
ah But to the regional thing, one of the issues with pecs is fungal growth.
Yes, it's fungal growth inside the piping.
And you can find plenty of this stuff online.
That's how I found it.
(10:36):
Okay.
I didn't invent any of this stuff.
I read about it and I saw and I listened to the plumbers and stuff that are going throughit.
And I've seen the pictures.
Matter of fact, we did a PEX discussion not too long ago and I had Jonathan Simon andGabe, last name's escaped me right now.
They were from FlowGuard Gold manufacturer.
(10:58):
Now they know their competitors better than all of us put together, right?
So they could talk about, and they were there to talk about technical stuff, chemicalstuff, anything like that.
ah He has memorized a lot of uh these issues in, it could memorize dates and all that,which are irrelevant really to me, to us.
(11:19):
The fact is they're there, but.
In some of those areas like Minnesota, you don't have the fungal growth issue as much asyou do in Florida, where we are.
And I have pictures, I can show you multiple pictures of the stuff, the nasty stuffgrowing inside these pipes, okay?
(11:39):
UV gets through plastic.
It doesn't get through something like copper.
Okay, now, and if your temperatures are not as conducive in Minnesota as they are inFlorida, well, then maybe you won't experience that.
as much there.
So, okay, all that makes sense.
However, there's so many other things on the list.
And I bet you most people sitting here listening going, what are you talking about?
(12:01):
Fungal growth.
Yes, fungal growth.
Mold inside pipes.
I have seen it.
Again, I can show you the pictures, but I don't want you to believe me.
I want you to go prove it to yourself and find it online.
You will find it.
It's readily available information.
wonder, it is the same issue happen in PVC or is it more impermeable to light in both CPVCand PVC?
(12:25):
be specific to a pipe.
It seems like it would be more water chemistry based than anything.
They don't have the UV penetration and there's something else in chemically and that'swhere Jonathan Simon can answer that exact question scientifically where they don't have
that issue at all with CPVC, but it's a chemical thing.
(12:47):
Yeah, we're just turning into a part four, but I'm here for it, Well, I've seen that like,yeah, I've seen, John, I've seen that chemical permeability is another issue with PEX as
well.
ah
huge chemical permeability.
I but I mean, that's an issue with copper too.
mean, maybe to a lesser degree sometimes, but I mean, like the whole Thunder Bay situationis all about, you know, uh a chemical issue that happened with the water that failed
(13:19):
copper fittings.
So I mean, like, you know, yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
but the chemical permeation is a huge issue.
Way back in the day, California uh contracted a lab and stuff to do these studies, andthey were able to measure.
(13:41):
So these are guys with lab coats and powerful microscopes and all this stuff.
They can measure chemicals down to parts per billion.
And they were measuring all of these chemicals that you can't even pronounce.
It doesn't make any difference.
I can name them, but some of them anyway, but it doesn't make any difference.
They measure them to the parts per billion.
And what was allowed by California code at the time and what they were measuring was like10 times the amount allowed.
(14:10):
Some of the chemicals come out of the pipe.
Some of the chemicals come through the pipe.
In Florida, we don't have to worry about freezing.
So some of our pipes are outside.
So you'll have the pipe go underground, come up and then go into the house.
That exposed part, then all of sudden you get the yard guy and he's spraying for bugs andants and weeds and whatever else.
(14:32):
They prove those chemicals can leach through.
This is an EIR study, environmental impact report.
And very, very uh interesting thing about this environmental report, they have all thesestats, right?
And where they measure all this stuff.
And then one day, poof.
It's gone.
And you're like.
Like the Epstein files?
(14:52):
No, I'm sorry.
Maybe we had it up or down.
All of sudden we're gone.
And it's been replaced with another EIR.
So if you're going online looking for this EIR report, the one you're going to find saysit's all rainbows and unicorns.
There's nothing wrong.
You're going, wait, wait, wait, wait a second.
Somebody in lab coat just measured it and told me.
Well, it's a big issue here because we, in so many of the properties around here,sprinkler systems and irrigation systems use reclaimed water.
(15:20):
That's not fully treated.
Maybe that could contribute to the fungus among us on the interior.
I don't know.
if it's in the soil, I mean, it's getting through to the pipe.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a possibility.
But the big one, John, that I...
they're using PEX for irrigation.
I think they're using uh PERT and straight up polyethylene.
(15:44):
Yeah, but if your pipe is coming in, if your water is getting fed in, I mean, what's thatgetting fed in with from the city?
If that's coming city if it's coming copper from the city or yeah something else
that copper.
don't know, could be.
But I've got a picture I can show you where you can actually visually see, okay, because Iknow a lot of people are visual learners, as am I.
(16:04):
You can see when they print the information on the pipe and it has all kinds of where itwas made and age and all that stuff, you can watch that ink go through the plastic to the
water.
You can see it.
I'll show you the picture.
So chemical permeation is absolutely huge.
Sure.
But the big thing too, John, that this is honestly number one that stood out to me whenyou wrote in kind of in response to the last episode.
(16:34):
I can't remember if it was said that there were no PECS lawsuits in last 10 years or not,but you gave evidence of the fact that there are several that are still underway.
But these go back as far as 2013, and then there's been one every year since 2021.
Let me I want to I can't wait to address that.
(16:54):
Let me say one thing real quick because I want somebody that attacked me big time ah onthis the chemical permeation things is you just get a water treatment system.
So I go maybe there's instead of attacking him.
I said maybe there's something to this.
I don't know.
I am not this chemical water expert.
I don't claim to be so I looked into it and what I found was there is no system that isgoing to completely eliminate all the
(17:21):
the stuff out of the water.
And if you've got something that was really close, it would be more expensive than justre-plumbing.
So it doesn't make any sense, okay?
I think does that.
But I mean, like, you don't want reverse osmosis for your entire house.
That's the reason why people don't do that.
It will never, nothing does 100 % gets rid of 100 % of the chemicals in the water.
(17:44):
That's from what I have read.
Okay.
And again,
did.
I mean, I don't have any facts on that.
I just thought RO did that.
So, but as far as the lawsuits, what I sent you specifically was the last 10 years becausethe master plumber said, oh, well, it's that we haven't had really had any problems in the
last 10 years.
(18:05):
And I went like, that's not true.
It's just patently untrue.
These lawsuits have been happening for a very, very long time.
So what I sent you was just the ones in the last 10 years.
But did you guys know that every major
Tex manufacturer has had a minimum of one class action lawsuit.
That's fascinating.
(18:25):
again, I want to be fair here because I'm, I can't say that there have been, but I'm surethat previously, you know, used materials have as well from CPVC to galvanize to copper.
So if you know of any, let's have a fair discussion, drop them in the chat, but John's notwrong.
And I can read these off to you here.
So go ahead, Matt.
(18:47):
I just want to emphasize that.
I mean, not all of them, but I think where this really this conversation, at least wherethis conversation and kind of where we took it with Eric was the comparison of polybutyly
to pecs piping.
And there's two things I want to mention here.
(19:07):
And one is, I mean, at least most of the class action lawsuits in the last 10 years onpecs, not all of them.
but a good chunk of them have been in relation to fittings, mostly to brass, and then uhwhich, I mean, is understandable.
I mean, not acceptable, but understandable.
(19:28):
I mean, comparison of PB to PEX, we're talking about a billion dollars versus like threequarters of a million.
I mean, that's a lot of money.
Don't get me wrong, it's a lot of lawsuits, but I just don't think that...
that it really, don't think we can compare the two because it's just.
PEX is a polyolefin based plastic.
(19:50):
Guess what else is a polyolefin based plastic?
PB.
Yeah, I get that.
But I think it's, think we are talking about two different systems altogether.
I mean, the amount of lawsuits and the amount of money paid out for PB is exponentiallylarger than anything that has happened in the entire life of and they've been around about
(20:14):
the same period of, mean, different periods, but the same amount of years, right?
PB was like,
quick.
Let me read these off to you real quick, Matt.
So these are the ones that Johnson in.
So 2013, there was a case filed.
was Cole versus NIBCOing.
Yeah, 2013.
(20:35):
yeah, we'll get to the rest.
That was the core allegation was that PEX tubing brass fitting.
So you got it there and stainless clamps oxidize and de-zincify and leak.
And 2021 only four years ago, four years ago, this was brasswell versus bow plumbinggroup.
had white bow PEX tubing oxidizes and fails that paid out 8 million August 29, 2024.
(21:00):
Then 2023 it was Currico versus
a uponer oxidative degeneration of uponer pex pipe.
Court denied the motion to dismiss and the discovery is still underway as of March of2025.
Then I missed this one here 2021 again, Matt Storr versus uponer.
(21:22):
So uponer again brought up here.
Pipe cracking was another issue with that one.
Australia had one in 2024 that was hot water pecs lines were rupturing.
And then 2025 here, this was McCoy versus upon her again.
So you hear that name keep coming up.
(21:43):
Micro cracks and oxidation in red, white and blue aqua pecs piping.
The biggest one that was paid out.
And this one is still ongoing and this is coming back to once again, desyncifyingfittings.
ah There's a fund of 125 million for it with final payments issued this month.
(22:04):
those, John, those are the ones just that you sent in there.
Those are just in the last 10 years.
And then I sent you like four of them that are ongoing where they're still doing, there'sa whole law process and I don't understand it.
It's all I can explain is it's in the process.
But in 2011, was the lawsuit against Upanore was categorized by the construction, yeah,categorized by the construction defect center as possibly the largest effective plumbing
(22:34):
recall in US history.
That's just that one, okay?
uh However, I don't care.
It really doesn't matter.
The point is there's issues with this pex.
So why would you ignore all this stuff?
To me, that's like ignoring the cracks in the foundation and then being surprised if thehouse falls down.
(22:56):
It doesn't make any sense.
Let's look into this, right?
Instead of ignoring, honest to God, I think if you ignore it, that's professionalnegligence.
Well, but mean, like, is there, we have issues with other pipes too.
Like, what do you think the solution is?
I think that's really where, like we have to pivot.
if, if, if, PECS has all these problems, then what's the, what's the solution?
(23:20):
I don't know.
I am not sitting here to try to say this is the solution.
That's not my job.
My job is to go, hey, guys and gals, you need to look into this.
OK?
Yeah, so you can sit here and make arguments a little.
Anyway, you can sit here and make the arguments.
It doesn't make any difference.
There are issues with pecs.
(23:42):
And I think everybody needs to have some type of disclosure statement, whatever you arecomfortable with.
I don't care if you use ours or not.
You don't hurt my feelings.
And you don't get to me when you insult me.
I'm too old to give a crap.
So, you know, it doesn't matter to me.
I want you to go discover and I want you to come up with some kind of disclosure.
(24:06):
Is that fair?
I don't know.
that makes sense.
I get where you're coming from.
it makes sense, but I just, you know, the one thing that I, I mean, look, I'm not sayingthat your findings and your opinions are not based in facts or at least, you know, things
that you have read.
But I mean, I don't, I would have to do my own research before I considered any type ofdisclaimer because I don't want to be a fear monger.
(24:35):
And I really think that like, you know, I
You know, there are an awful lot of people buying houses with pecs and there are an awfullot of houses being repiped with pecs.
And if we throw some type of strong disclaimer out there, mean, look, it's not, I put in adisclaimer about federal Pacific electric.
(24:56):
I don't think we're in the same category personally.
think it's worse because there's more.
There's more of it.
don't I don't have any I don't think I can back that up.
I don't feel like I could back that up as being worse.
of where's the line at what point we call it out, right?
That's our thing as inspectors.
It's like, when do you call it out?
(25:17):
Where do you call it out?
We call out polybutylene because it was banned, right, as a material.
So do you call it out in advance of that or do you call it out after it's no longer anapproved material?
Listen, we have gone through this with so many other things and everybody made the sameexact arguments with FPE, with polybutylene, with Bulldog, with Zinsko, with whatever.
(25:41):
Okay.
They make the same exact arguments and then time will tell.
And then all of a you prove it.
I've lived through the whole polybutylene thing.
I've been doing inspections since 98.
All right.
I've lived through that whole thing where we're going, we're starting to learn about poly.
You're going, holy cow, are you kidding?
But it's so everybody's using it.
We all use the same argument.
Everybody's using it and it's so awesome.
(26:02):
And it does all these things and saves so much time and et cetera.
And it did nothing but get worse and worse and worse, right?
Answer me this.
In Florida specifically, insurance is a huge deal.
it's uh recently citizens has added PECS specifically to their form.
(26:23):
If there were no issues with PECS, we would not be seeing this.
on the insurance forms.
And I have had for years and years ago, people still calling the office going, hey, I'mgetting canceled.
My insurance is getting canceled because I have PECs or they're giving me so much timebefore I have to replumb.
Why didn't you tell me this?
We have had disclosures for a long time.
Now, again, come up with your own disclosure.
(26:45):
Hold on, Matt, come up with your own disclosure.
Even if it's something as simple as some systems have had issues, I recommend you lookinto this yourself.
Something simple that Matt feels comfortable with.
Yeah.
But I mean, like determining insurability, at least in Texas, isn't our job.
So, I mean, like, I don't really see that.
(27:06):
Florida.
Okay?
But again, I'm not here to argue that point.
Yes, but I'm not here to argue the point.
It's instruments.
Dude, you can get denied for debris in your gutter.
huge.
Yeah, no, I get that.
Like insurance is huge.
That's a big deal to a homeowner, but determining insurability, at least by Texasstandards, that isn't what we do.
(27:30):
uh And so and so, you know, it wouldn't that wouldn't be I mean, I know that you guys dohave some different inspections that are related specifically to insurance that we don't
do here.
You know, when Mets and whatnot.
ah
that you have a major insurer that has recognized there's issues with it and they don'twant to pay the claims.
That's what it boils down to is the money.
(27:51):
They don't want to pay the claims.
Okay, so I'm telling you it is PEX is an issue and there's a lot of them.
You have the chemical permeation, you have the oxidation, the chlorination degradation,the fungal growth.
There's so many things and speaking of chlorination degradation, 98 % of the United States
(28:11):
treats their water, sanitizes their water with some form of chlorine.
Okay?
If you're lucky enough to be in that 2%, God bless you, that's fantastic.
But 98 % of municipalities sanitize their water with some type of chlorine, chloramines,chlorine dioxide, and the chlorine dioxide has now, PECS has come out and says, oh, if you
(28:33):
are using chlorine dioxide to sanitize your water, don't use our product.
It's in their, it's in, they typed it, not me, okay?
And the number of facilities that are changing from other chlorine type of sanitizationstuff to this chlorine dioxide is growing.
Huge, very, very large numbers.
(28:53):
So even if today you're not in that category where they're using the chlorine dioxide, youmight be tomorrow, next week, next year.
uh
a comp here, would be almost like that.
Matt, I don't know if they have this in Texas.
I encountered it plenty up in Virginia and DC.
But like Atlas Chalet shingle, where it was made to look like architectural shingle, butit fell apart in no time.
(29:21):
And now I don't.
I can't speak to a ban being in place on it.
Maybe after a while there was, but ah it was something that I called out anytime that Ifound it just because it was known to have issues, even though I found instances of its
use.
So maybe this is something that we're looking at where it's kind of going the route.
(29:41):
We haven't quite reached a polybutylene ban on PEX, but it might be something where it'slike there's known defects just as there were with that with Shelly shingles.
Is that something?
can the product get better over time?
I guess it would depend on the chemical makeup, wouldn't it?
mean, well, I mean, mean, it can be manufactured to do.
(30:03):
I'm sorry, you meant what?
I think he's saying like, we learn things about the pipe and we correct things about thepipe.
And then I think it can be manufactured better over time, possibly, or installed betterover time.
mean, if leaching is a problem, you can sleeve it.
There are practices that could help reduce things that are happening.
(30:27):
called for back in the original EIR.
They said, uh okay, if you're going to use it, then you have to sleeve it.
And it was codified for a while.
And then the plastic industry, whatever fought back in California, ran out of money.
Go figure, right?
And so that kind of died out.
But okay, if you can solve a problem or maybe the fungal growth problem, maybe you cansolve some of those issues with that.
(30:54):
You still have others.
So again, my point is, guys, there's a long list of issues here and you need to look intothem and come up with your disclosure.
yeah, I, yeah, I don't know.
I mean, that would be like me disclosing builders that have known issues with theirbuilds.
(31:15):
I don't, I don't.
Yeah, I don't actually, but I mean like, but no, I mean like some people do, right?
But I mean like, I, I, I feel like that's what it's like, you know?
And I think, I think it's so, a lot of the things are region specific.
fitting specific, installation specific.
And so I just wonder as inspectors, mean, look, I want to provide my clients with the bestpossible inspection money can buy.
(31:44):
But I also, I mean, I could freak them out literally about almost everything about theirhome.
And I mean, you know, a lot of this, a lot of things, I think come down to what someonecan afford.
There's a lot of things to factor in.
mean, if someone's buying a house from the 70s and it's got galvanized pipe in it, theyare bound to have, I mean, it is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when they are going
(32:13):
to have catastrophic problems of some sort.
And so they need to consider repiping.
They, you know, a standard 2,500 square foot house, you're looking at six to $12,000 toput pecs in.
You're looking at 15 to $30,000 to put copper in.
Like, I don't know.
And then, and then there's a factor of at least here, like in 2021, we never, we're kindof like Florida.
(32:36):
We don't freeze, but in 2021, we, we froze, right?
A lot of people want to act like that's a really big deal.
And it was for us at the time, but it was like a 500 year situation.
we're not gonna change our entire building practices based on this one event.
But what pipe held up during that time?
PECs.
Everything else, especially copper, busted.
(32:59):
A lot of catastrophic flooding situations happened in homes that had metal pipes.
I mean, some PVC too, but know, galvanized obviously, which is a problem.
I don't even wanna include that in there because it's such a anyway, but copper had a lotof problems.
And PECs had a few, but...
Not really.
And so I just think there's so many things to factor in.
(33:21):
But listen, and a lot of this degradation is from the inside out.
Okay, so you're looking at it and it looks fine.
The exact same defense that somebody with a Zinsko panel goes, well look, it's been therefor 20, 30, 40, 50 years, John, we've never had an issue with it.
You might and you might not know it, you can't see it.
So when you look at these things under a microscope, some of them you don't even need inthe microscope, you can see radial cracks.
(33:45):
I can show you numerous images of the cracks and maybe you can't see it from the surface.
And when is it going to reach that crack going to reach from the center to the surface?
When's it going to reach that tomorrow, next week, next month, next year?
Who knows?
The point is you said you want to provide the best possible product.
Then you are you, it's your responsibility to look into this and read about it, geteducated on it and come up with some type of disclosure because I don't want to see Matt
(34:12):
get sued over something that only took you a sentence to say, Hey, listen, I've done someresearch and there are some issues associated with this.
Here's some websites or here's additional things for you to look into because it's not ourjob to tell people to buy, not buy, anything else like that.
Educate.
I I get that.
(34:33):
I mean, like, I think that, like, as inspectors, like, I don't think, I don't know, it'shard for me to say that this this disclaimer is protecting us from any type of lawsuit.
I mean, it is, we're responsible for telling what kind of pipe the house has, but I don't,I mean, I don't see how it's, I mean, it's, it's covering us for sure to have some type
(34:56):
of, I could see that.
But I mean, I don't know at what cost.
I mean, there's like a
There's like a 90 % chance no matter what house somebody buys out here, they're buying itwith pecs.
um And so I don't, but I don't see where we're liable.
It's almost, mean, Matt, almost sounds like you're kind of, again, this is not todiscredit, ah you know, what John has been saying and the evidence that he's been
(35:20):
presenting, but it's almost like, where do you make the line on disclaimers?
Because I could in Florida go look at a 20 to 25 year shingle.
And we know in Florida, John, that that thing is going to last maybe 15 tops because we
here.
cook through shingles.
Yeah, we cook through shingles, right?
So if you don't, if somebody assumes because the homeowner told them when they bought it,yeah, that's a 30 year shingle.
(35:46):
And then they find out five years in, wait, it was 10 years old and now I have to replaceit.
Well, my home inspector should have told me, I mean, do you make a note?
Hey, we live in Florida, maybe consider getting metal or concrete tile or anything that'snot asphalt shingle or
you know, what do you, what do you say?
(36:07):
mean, where do you draw a line on that?
You know what's interesting?
As I've researched some of this stuff, I've gone into plumber forums to see what they haveto say about it.
And I will tell you what plumbers have to say about it.
50 % of them love it, 50 % of them hate it.
OK?
So ask your plumber and you're going to whatever.
You're going to get an opinion.
But look at the evidence.
(36:27):
Look at all these settled cases.
Look at all this stuff.
You cannot ignore it.
OK?
Do you know when chlorine degradation starts?
This is a thought I've meant to finish before.
Immediately.
After I did this presentation at our state association one time, and I had all kinds ofpeople upset, go figure, right?
But this one young lady, Megan Keith, her niche is 11 month.
(36:51):
She lives in an area where everything's new.
And that's her niche, 11 month inspections.
And she's like, my God, this is what I'm seeing.
Now she understands it.
again, I can show you numerous images of chlorine degradation, what it looks like.
And you need to know what to look for, that popcorning and that yellowing.
of the pipe, that's chlorine degradation or chlorination degradation, whatever you want tocall that.
(37:14):
Yeah.
Where are you seeing the pipe?
We see the pipe all over the place in the garage, the attic, because it's all exposed.
there's very little pipe exposed and usually almost none unless it's always covered withinsulation or pipe insulation.
So if you can't see it, does it make it untrue?
(37:35):
Of course not.
Okay.
The good thing is I can see it and I can show you the pictures.
The pipes eventually turn yellow.
They start what they call popcorning and you get in yellow spots.
That is chlorination degradation, which occurs on the interior.
you see, first of all, PEX is inherently incompatible with chlorine treated water, whichis where I was going with the 98 % of the country.
(38:00):
is using that.
So they have to add antioxidants to it so it doesn't break down as fast.
Well, all of these things uh accelerate that process.
Heat, you know, you, Mr.
Plummer, mentioned heat, uh the exposure, obviously, the chlorine, those kinds of things,just to accelerate it.
uh So if you had it, if you kept it away from heat, would that prolong it?
(38:24):
Yeah, maybe.
OK, but again, it does not make any difference.
There are these issues exist and I don't make them up.
You can read them for yourself.
I'll be happy to provide resources for you to read yourself.
it's everybody's obligation as a home inspector if our job is to provide someclarification of something so somebody can make an informed decision.
(38:48):
That's all I'm asking.
that seems to be what you're getting at right there.
It's educating about what information is available.
Right, right.
You know what?
I was mentioning a year earlier this everybody is aware that the old 410A refrigerant isgoing out and the what was it 454B or and some 32 and something.
OK, so there's whatever this new refrigerant is coming out.
(39:11):
It's codified.
It's all over the country.
And what if I sat here and told you, holy cow, did you see all the fires that arehappening because of this refrigerant?
And all of a sudden they're they're combusting.
Systems are combusting.
Would you sit there and say, yeah, but wait a minute, they're installing all over theUnited States, so I'm going to ignore everything you're telling me.
Well, that would be ignorant, right?
Now, hold on, right?
(39:34):
I'm right.
You would have to go, wow, well, let me look into this.
Let me read these news stories.
Let me read this and find out, is this a regional thing?
Your obligation would be to educate yourself and find out about it, is my point.
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
what I'm saying.
I don't think that's the point I'm trying to make.
I'm trying to figure out how to articulate it.
(39:56):
But if someone is going to buy a house, OK, all right.
If you want to talk about the refrigerant, if someone's going to buy a house within acertain time frame, it's going to have that.
If someone's going to buy a house right now, whether it's new or in the last five or sixyears, it's
(40:18):
almost 100 % going to have pecs in it.
And so, I I could, I could, I could, I'm not saying it does.
I'm not saying it does, but does it make me a better inspector to tell them, hey, this,this product is probably going to fail on you at some point.
Um, and to tell them that, I mean, is it, I mean, I don't know.
(40:41):
We're, we're, that's speculation, but that's
But that's speculation.
We don't know if any of that's going to happen.
Well, it don't.
But no, you've read about specific.
and years and years, more than the 10 years that we're talking about.
It's proven.
The scientists have proven all this stuff with oh their fancy magnifying glasses and allthis stuff.
(41:07):
It's all proven.
The chemical permeation, UV degradation, uh chlorination degradation, oxidation, thefungal growth.
It goes on and on and on.
I-
know, man.
I don't know.
It's let's kick it to the audience here because I think this is a great place becauseagain, you guys have been sounding off on this for the past six months on two episodes.
(41:31):
This is now the third we're doing on it.
So we want to hear respectfully.
We want to hear y'all's opinion as an inspector.
Are you guys calling this out?
Do you have a disclaimer?
What are you saying in that disclaimer?
And again, let's say let's open this up.
Is this something that's specific to PECS alone or are you guys aware of any lawsuits thathave applied to CPVC?
(41:52):
and PVC or any materials before that.
Where do we draw the line as inspectors on what we call out, what we don't, whatdisclaimers we use, and basically what we go through and approve of or alert buyers to?
ah Drop it in the comments.
Please share this with other inspectors so we can get them to buy in on this as well,because I want this to be a community-wide discussion.
(42:16):
And we welcome y'all's opinions here, for sure.
and please make it a discussion.
Okay, don't sit here and say, it's installed everywhere.
Therefore, okay, that's not an argument.
You know what saying?
don't want it to be that's not the argument that I'm making.
I just think that like, say this and I so I freaked them out and now what are they goingto do?
(42:41):
If you put some scary disclaimer in your report about this, what are they going to do?
Okay, well then don't.
Then don't do that.
I'm saying there are ramifications for ignoring it.
When I was going through a lot of these forms and stuff reading about it, because again, Ididn't come up with this opinion.
(43:06):
Everybody else, the facts did, the lawsuits did.
I'm finding all kinds of complaints from consumers.
My inspector didn't tell me.
And they're making social media posts.
I can't get insurance because...
The inspector missed it.
You can find those too.
I did not make this up.
I'll let you read them.
(43:27):
So, so, so, hey, it is what it is.
There's ramifications of the morning.
But did the inspector miss it?
It doesn't matter.
It does.
It matters a great deal to the inspector.
is mad and they're making social media posts about it.
It doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong.
They are going to make the social media post.
You know, it matters.
We have our job has limitations.
(43:49):
It is very clear.
middle of the road here guys.
What if you just the same way that we have a life expectancy or at least in my reports, Iput a life expectancy on appliances and materials, right?
Roof.
kitchen appliances, heating and cooling, water heaters.
I put life expectancies.
When it comes to plumbing, can we say for a fact, hey, you might be good with this for 20to 30 years.
(44:13):
It's rated for a 50 year life expectancy, but there are known issues that could cause thelife expectancy to be shortened.
Just you need to be aware.
What if you said life expectancy may vary?
That could work.
Yeah, yeah.
you say, I just want to protect you.
That's all.
we're, but that's where we're getting that.
Like what I think Matt was driving home at is, is what, what can we do with thisinformation that helps the buyer?
(44:36):
I think that's what he was really getting at.
So, I mean, I feel like that's a good solution right there where you can give a lifeexpectancy or simply say that it varies due to known conditions.
that may be affected by your water, have a water test done to uh clarify quality in yourarea.
mean, you could, because again, that goes beyond the scope of the inspection there, butthat's something that you could do if you really, really want to know the nuts and bolts
(45:01):
of your home is what kind of effect is the water quality having on the piping in yourhome?
It could be completely different.
mean, we're talking, John, we're talking in Florida in a place where, you know, water istreated with chlorine, but is this going to apply on a private well system?
that's mineral rich and fairly clean, you know?
You know, that's funny you mentioned that because that's a great question.
(45:22):
I don't have the technical answer to it, but in one of these forums, a guy, and I use thisin my presentation.
I've got a two hour presentation on PECS.
All these facts, and I show you the pictures, the lawsuits, you read it for yourself.
But one of the guys that responds, goes, I'm having all these problems, the leaks, etcetera, et cetera.
I'm on a well.
Some of these leaks are coming from mechanical stresses.
(45:46):
That's another one of the weak points.
When you start, you know,
bragging and show how you can bend this stuff you're causing That's the impetus of thecrack development
to, or it can even go back to a pressure reducing valve that's oversized for the capacityof the home or for the pipe.
that, again, if it's over pressurizing the pipe, that's going to cause failures no matterwhat material you're using.
(46:10):
Yeah, I don't recall any pressure issues with pecs, that being part of the defect.
It's all been the, and we've talked a lot about the pipe because that's where people aresaying, well, it's only the fittings.
It's only de-zincification in the brass fittings causing occlusion and et cetera, etcetera.
It's not just the fittings.
And you know, back in God, 10, 15 years ago, whatever it was, when everybody was learningabout de-zincification, what is that?
(46:37):
Well, that was something we learned and it was the F-1807 Cupex issues.
Then there was a lawsuit after that that said for all the other bright brass fittings.
So it's not just the F-1807s, it's all the other ones.
A of lawsuits, done.
So again, it's not fittings, it's fittings and pipes.
some of these lawsuits even include the stainless steel ones.
(47:00):
One of the manufacturers I forget right now, tuck my head.
uh stopped manufacturing those stainless steel fittings because of failures.
I can't go on and on and on.
My point is guys and gals, read for yourself, come up with a disclosure that you arecomfortable with because I don't want to get you sued.
If you do, well, that's your own.
If you choose to ignore, if you choose to not say anything, you might get away with it,but you might not.
(47:26):
Now, John, we appreciate it.
Seriously, man.
This has been a ton of information.
And again, you know, it's yeah, very helpful, very educational.
And we want to kick it back to the comments, you know, guys, sound sign, which I wasagainst sound off in the comments on your take on this, what you've read and researched
yourself.
it verify everything that John's saying?
Have you seen what he's seeing?
(47:47):
And if you're using disclaimers, what are you saying?
How are you warning it?
Um, and if, I was, yeah, go ahead.
to say something, I mean, like, regardless of the fact that we may have some difference ofopinions or, or, whether or not I choose to disclose this or how I choose to disclose this
or how you choose to disclose this, I have learned some things for you today and Iappreciate your commentary.
(48:11):
I appreciate your take on everything.
I appreciate you being on here and I like that we can have these types of discussions.
Even if friction occurs, we learn something from that friction and I
do intend to be the very best inspector I can be.
And whether or not it's a consideration of something like a disclosure like this andeveryone else out there, whether you choose to do this or like Brad was saying earlier,
(48:34):
some type of life expectancy, these types of conversations, we have to have these so thatwe can be the best we can be.
I'm fortunate to be a part of this conversation.
I thank both of you.
Thank you.
I appreciate that and I got an idea.
I got a great idea.
What if you had some kind of contest and use chat GPT if you want.
(48:55):
See who can come up with the best disclosure.
best disclosure.
Come up with the best disclosure.
Yeah.
Hey, post them in the comments.
Seriously.
And look, you guys can go in and like it.
Right?
One with the most likes, dude, we'll send a gift card.
We'll send some t ra swag, something bad.
That'd be pretty cool.
Because we're gonna we got some t ra swag that we're rolling out here at some point soon.
Everybody wants a t-shirt, right?
(49:17):
A ride along t-shirt.
Well, the funny here's what's funny guys.
Like when we jumped on we were like, hey, let's let's just make this it's a Sunday we'rerecording.
We all want to get in or enjoy the rest of our weekends.
We're like, this is just going to be a short one.
No, we're at 50 minutes now.
Like, yeah, it's been good.
That's it, man.
That's it.
Get a little drink involved.
We get talking shop and here we are in almost an hour.
(49:39):
So, john, thank you for being here, man.
We really appreciate it.
Thank you everybody so much for watching.
Enjoy your Monday.
uh If you're listening to this, go check out Matt's presentation.
It's Dallas, right, Matt?
Yep.
DFW, actually, Richardson is the specific location.
Go check that out, four to six.
(49:59):
otherwise, we'll see you right here next time on.
The Ride Along.
All right, guys, thanks for joining us again here on the ride along today.
We are talking with Mr.
John Bolton in the third of a three part series, unintentional three part series aboutpecs plumbing.
And this is going to really kind of put a bow tie a little bow on the conversation.
But we appreciate everybody that's chimed in on this.
I mean, this is something that has been getting all kinds of interest Matt.
(00:22):
Yeah, I mean, it's a hot topic and I think that, you everyone has a bunch of opinions andto be honest with you, I think, I don't know how everyone else feels, but I have learned
quite a bit um from people commenting on it and chiving in on it and other people'sopinions.
So, I mean, I think that's what this is all about.
We should keep going.
Now I definitely agree, but John, thanks for jumping on.
This whole thing kicked off when you and I talked, think, Inspection Fuel last year aboutpex plumbing, man.
(00:47):
And people have some very strong opinions on this.
man, you are not kidding.
It's like, you guys, here's where I come from.
I learned something and I brought it to people.
And I said, hey, brothers and sisters, inspectors all over the place, this is some stuff Ilearned and you might want to look at it.
And every time I do, man, the attacks are just brutal sometimes.
(01:13):
you're all laughing because you've all heard them.
And some of them are just rank.
uh
extremely unprofessional and I'm like this doesn't make any sense and I'm just trying totell you something.
That is the internet though.
mean, like, you know, I mean, there, can't put an opinion out there without somebodygiving some ridiculous uneducated opinion on it.
(01:36):
Look, the fact of the matter is we can have a difference of opinion.
And I think that that is good.
I encourage differences opinions and for us to talk about this kind of things and seeother sides of it.
But without like somebody just kind of coming out uneducated and just throwing a wholebunch of nonsense at us.
But that happens.
I deal with that on a regular basis.
(01:57):
Now it does.
But before we get into sharing opinions here one more time again, we want to hear y'alls.
We want to hear y'alls keep it respectful y'all seriously.
I mean, ah there's we're all here to help each other.
And honestly, the position of this show is to be as helpful as possible to home inspectorsin this industry that want to be successful.
Okay, there's all kinds of drama online.
We've actually taken some flack for not getting involved in it.
(02:19):
We won't.
I'm just going to tell you all right now.
We don't right?
We're here to be as helpful as possible.
to as many people as possible.
ah but we're gonna kick it off real quick with the drink of the day because John, I gotyou hooked on something man.
And you're welcome.
That's all I'm gonna say what are you sipping on?
You did and you know, I've got to send you that video.
(02:43):
I don't know if Matt knows the story, but when we're doing the you don't know the story.
OK, so we're doing the fireside chat thing and I know you.
I listen to the show right?
So I called Brad and I said, hey dude, what's your you know what you drink?
What's your favorite drink?
Because he was going to come over here to my place and I wanted to be the hostess with themost of right and he says.
(03:05):
in old fashioned and I'm like, okay, I'll figure it out.
I've never had one before ever in my life.
So I literally go to ABC Liquor and I go, I have a friend coming over his favorite is oldfashioned, how do I make them?
And he goes, well, do you know?
And I go, no, I know nothing.
He says, okay, you need this, you need this and you need this.
I said, done.
(03:25):
And it brought home the stuff.
And that was the drink of the day on that episode, Brad showing John how to make
this old fashioned and like all of a sudden he had me hooked.
You know, I've been making them ever since and that's what I'm drinking today is a reallynice old fashioned but with a twist.
(03:47):
This is one with maple syrup.
is just chef's kiss.
Awesome.
I've got no problem with that.
I like adding a little bit of sweetness, obviously, whenever I make a cocktail, usually,and an old-fashioned definitely calls for that.
I think maple syrup is a really good addition.
So cheers to that.
What you got, Matt?
well, me?
See, I'm on location right now.
I am in Grapevine, Texas right now.
(04:08):
I'm out of town.
I'm not in my stomping grounds.
So I've got minimal supplies with me, right?
And so today, I have just Wild Turkey 101 in a cup.
Neat.
Cheers.
go, but we're going to toast to what you are going to be doing there.
That's true.
So yeah, I'm in town because tomorrow I am speaking from four to six at Oak HighlandsBrewery at the BS and beer two year anniversary of the DFW DFW chapter.
(04:36):
And I want to explain BS and beer and what that is, cause that can sound like somethingit's not.
And I don't think there's enough people to understand that like the BS in BS and beerstands for building science.
The reason why they have
this BSNBR meetup and there's different chapters all throughout the US and even in Canada.
They meet up to discuss building practices, building science, and uh just network togethera community of people that like to learn, very smart people that like to teach, and just
(05:06):
like to share what they do and what we can do to build better.
uh so yeah, building science, the building science community, they have chapters allthroughout the US, like I say, and in Canada.
find one of your local chapters.
I encourage inspectors to become a part of this because as inspectors we can learn a tonabout what's going on inside the walls that may be causing the problems that we're finding
(05:32):
during our inspections.
I love it, man.
That's fantastic.
Anchor grass to you.
Let me know how the topic goes.
We are we're going to wait to talk about it on the next episode.
Yeah, definitely.
is in the DFW area tomorrow, that is the 21st of July, four to six, I'll be speaking atthe Oak Highlands Brewery.
You're all welcome.
It's a, anybody can come.
(05:52):
So come on out.
Fantastic, man, dude, I'm looking forward to it.
I'm just sitting here.
be today, because this is going to come out tomorrow, which will be today.
This is happening today, Monday.
What are you drinking, Brad?
man.
So I am sitting here in Florida and if y'all see me dabbing here, uh like I'm full gospelpreacher, you know, I'm just getting going a little bit, you know, the Holy Spirit's just
(06:17):
moving.
You know, it's only because my AC's been out for three days and the part magically doesn'tcome in until tomorrow.
Isn't it amazing how contractors suddenly the part just shows up on Monday?
I bet it was there today, you if I was being honest, but I don't know.
(06:38):
You don't want to pay for that part.
yeah, so.
Sunday part.
That Sunday part's a lot more expensive.
That's it.
But I need this a bit extra then because of that.
You know, I talked about this in the last episode.
It's a rum old fashioned, which I think, you know, John being as we are Floridians overhere, it's it fits for a culture.
I love bourbon.
(06:59):
You know, that's definitely a heart of the country spirit.
But when I showed up in Florida and I was looking at the bourbon and whiskey selectionsand Scotches, I'm like, is dwarfed by
by the rum selection down here.
We're in the Caribbean, man, and we're in the tropics.
So rum old fashioned, it's on the sweet side.
(07:20):
you don't like sweeter cocktails, it might not be for you, but I think it adds a reallydifferent experience to it.
Super, super approachable and very dangerous.
Because they go down really sweet.
old fashioned.
I've had a tequila old fashioned before.
So I can see where like that pivot in alcohol and it doesn't make a big difference whatspirit you choose.
(07:42):
um Especially, mean, bourbons even, but I mean, like if you go from tequila to, you know,a rum, I can see that being a really big difference and make a really interesting
cocktail.
I'm looking forward to trying it.
Yeah, man, tequila old fashions just get me in trouble and then I express opinions thatpeople don't like and then it turns into fights, know, which were.
(08:05):
Let's do that.
Yeah, maybe that's what happens online when when you see these inspectors they get intokeyboard war fights with each other.
They all drink it tequila old fashioned y'all need to stop it.
Okay, we're here to elevate the dialogue, not not lower it to the lowest commondenominator.
But anyway.
opinions.
Let's give some opinions.
John, we have been talking about PEX plumbing.
(08:28):
we had a guest on, Eric Ony last time, master plumber up in Minnesota.
And I feel like regionally, that affects different people's preference in materials,right?
His was a preference of a hybrid kind of approach to using copper and PEX.
He wasn't as opposed to it.
Down here in Florida, water chemistry is so different.
(08:48):
uh Water table and soil content are so different.
again, you have a bit more of caution towards it.
And you sent us some really, really insightful stuff ah that kind of supports the positionthat you made previously when we talked about this on the show, in that uh this is not a
(09:10):
foolproof material.
Yeah, that's true.
And you know, the funny part was, and I completely respect your master plumber guy.
He does what a lot of us can't do and I totally respect.
Okay, so I don't mean anything ill towards him whatsoever.
(09:32):
And I do realize that there may be some regional differences.
Matter of fact, I was talking with Ruben Saltzman one time and he's in the same Minnesota.
area, right?
And he consulted his plumber on this because we were having the same conversations and hisplumber was telling him he doesn't have some of these issues and some of that makes sense.
(09:53):
Okay, there is a long list of issues with PECS and actually let me back up one second andsay, listen, I am not here to fight.
I'm here to inform.
Okay, I'm not I'm not supporting one manufacturer, you know, or one brand, one type ofplumbing, copper.
CPVC, PVC, anything like that.
(10:14):
None of it matters to me.
All I want to do is say, hey guys, listen, there's something going on here and you need tolook.
ah But to the regional thing, one of the issues with pecs is fungal growth.
Yes, it's fungal growth inside the piping.
And you can find plenty of this stuff online.
That's how I found it.
(10:36):
Okay.
I didn't invent any of this stuff.
I read about it and I saw and I listened to the plumbers and stuff that are going throughit.
And I've seen the pictures.
Matter of fact, we did a PEX discussion not too long ago and I had Jonathan Simon andGabe, last name's escaped me right now.
They were from FlowGuard Gold manufacturer.
(10:58):
Now they know their competitors better than all of us put together, right?
So they could talk about, and they were there to talk about technical stuff, chemicalstuff, anything like that.
ah He has memorized a lot of uh these issues in, it could memorize dates and all that,which are irrelevant really to me, to us.
(11:19):
The fact is they're there, but.
In some of those areas like Minnesota, you don't have the fungal growth issue as much asyou do in Florida, where we are.
And I have pictures, I can show you multiple pictures of the stuff, the nasty stuffgrowing inside these pipes, okay?
(11:39):
UV gets through plastic.
It doesn't get through something like copper.
Okay, now, and if your temperatures are not as conducive in Minnesota as they are inFlorida, well, then maybe you won't experience that.
as much there.
So, okay, all that makes sense.
However, there's so many other things on the list.
And I bet you most people sitting here listening going, what are you talking about?
(12:01):
Fungal growth.
Yes, fungal growth.
Mold inside pipes.
I have seen it.
Again, I can show you the pictures, but I don't want you to believe me.
I want you to go prove it to yourself and find it online.
You will find it.
It's readily available information.
wonder, it is the same issue happen in PVC or is it more impermeable to light in both CPVCand PVC?
(12:25):
be specific to a pipe.
It seems like it would be more water chemistry based than anything.
They don't have the UV penetration and there's something else in chemically and that'swhere Jonathan Simon can answer that exact question scientifically where they don't have
that issue at all with CPVC, but it's a chemical thing.
(12:47):
Yeah, we're just turning into a part four, but I'm here for it, Well, I've seen that like,yeah, I've seen, John, I've seen that chemical permeability is another issue with PEX as
well.
ah
huge chemical permeability.
I but I mean, that's an issue with copper too.
mean, maybe to a lesser degree sometimes, but I mean, like the whole Thunder Bay situationis all about, you know, uh a chemical issue that happened with the water that failed
(13:19):
copper fittings.
So I mean, like, you know, yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
but the chemical permeation is a huge issue.
Way back in the day, California uh contracted a lab and stuff to do these studies, andthey were able to measure.
(13:41):
So these are guys with lab coats and powerful microscopes and all this stuff.
They can measure chemicals down to parts per billion.
And they were measuring all of these chemicals that you can't even pronounce.
It doesn't make any difference.
I can name them, but some of them anyway, but it doesn't make any difference.
They measure them to the parts per billion.
And what was allowed by California code at the time and what they were measuring was like10 times the amount allowed.
(14:10):
Some of the chemicals come out of the pipe.
Some of the chemicals come through the pipe.
In Florida, we don't have to worry about freezing.
So some of our pipes are outside.
So you'll have the pipe go underground, come up and then go into the house.
That exposed part, then all of sudden you get the yard guy and he's spraying for bugs andants and weeds and whatever else.
(14:32):
They prove those chemicals can leach through.
This is an EIR study, environmental impact report.
And very, very uh interesting thing about this environmental report, they have all thesestats, right?
And where they measure all this stuff.
And then one day, poof.
It's gone.
And you're like.
Like the Epstein files?
(14:52):
No, I'm sorry.
Maybe we had it up or down.
All of sudden we're gone.
And it's been replaced with another EIR.
So if you're going online looking for this EIR report, the one you're going to find saysit's all rainbows and unicorns.
There's nothing wrong.
You're going, wait, wait, wait, wait a second.
Somebody in lab coat just measured it and told me.
Well, it's a big issue here because we, in so many of the properties around here,sprinkler systems and irrigation systems use reclaimed water.
(15:20):
That's not fully treated.
Maybe that could contribute to the fungus among us on the interior.
I don't know.
if it's in the soil, I mean, it's getting through to the pipe.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a possibility.
But the big one, John, that I...
they're using PEX for irrigation.
I think they're using uh PERT and straight up polyethylene.
(15:44):
Yeah, but if your pipe is coming in, if your water is getting fed in, I mean, what's thatgetting fed in with from the city?
If that's coming city if it's coming copper from the city or yeah something else
that copper.
don't know, could be.
But I've got a picture I can show you where you can actually visually see, okay, because Iknow a lot of people are visual learners, as am I.
(16:04):
You can see when they print the information on the pipe and it has all kinds of where itwas made and age and all that stuff, you can watch that ink go through the plastic to the
water.
You can see it.
I'll show you the picture.
So chemical permeation is absolutely huge.
Sure.
But the big thing too, John, that this is honestly number one that stood out to me whenyou wrote in kind of in response to the last episode.
(16:34):
I can't remember if it was said that there were no PECS lawsuits in last 10 years or not,but you gave evidence of the fact that there are several that are still underway.
But these go back as far as 2013, and then there's been one every year since 2021.
Let me I want to I can't wait to address that.
(16:54):
Let me say one thing real quick because I want somebody that attacked me big time ah onthis the chemical permeation things is you just get a water treatment system.
So I go maybe there's instead of attacking him.
I said maybe there's something to this.
I don't know.
I am not this chemical water expert.
I don't claim to be so I looked into it and what I found was there is no system that isgoing to completely eliminate all the
(17:21):
the stuff out of the water.
And if you've got something that was really close, it would be more expensive than justre-plumbing.
So it doesn't make any sense, okay?
I think does that.
But I mean, like, you don't want reverse osmosis for your entire house.
That's the reason why people don't do that.
It will never, nothing does 100 % gets rid of 100 % of the chemicals in the water.
(17:44):
That's from what I have read.
Okay.
And again,
did.
I mean, I don't have any facts on that.
I just thought RO did that.
So, but as far as the lawsuits, what I sent you specifically was the last 10 years becausethe master plumber said, oh, well, it's that we haven't had really had any problems in the
last 10 years.
(18:05):
And I went like, that's not true.
It's just patently untrue.
These lawsuits have been happening for a very, very long time.
So what I sent you was just the ones in the last 10 years.
But did you guys know that every major
Tex manufacturer has had a minimum of one class action lawsuit.
That's fascinating.
(18:25):
again, I want to be fair here because I'm, I can't say that there have been, but I'm surethat previously, you know, used materials have as well from CPVC to galvanize to copper.
So if you know of any, let's have a fair discussion, drop them in the chat, but John's notwrong.
And I can read these off to you here.
So go ahead, Matt.
(18:47):
I just want to emphasize that.
I mean, not all of them, but I think where this really this conversation, at least wherethis conversation and kind of where we took it with Eric was the comparison of polybutyly
to pecs piping.
And there's two things I want to mention here.
(19:07):
And one is, I mean, at least most of the class action lawsuits in the last 10 years onpecs, not all of them.
but a good chunk of them have been in relation to fittings, mostly to brass, and then uhwhich, I mean, is understandable.
I mean, not acceptable, but understandable.
(19:28):
I mean, comparison of PB to PEX, we're talking about a billion dollars versus like threequarters of a million.
I mean, that's a lot of money.
Don't get me wrong, it's a lot of lawsuits, but I just don't think that...
that it really, don't think we can compare the two because it's just.
PEX is a polyolefin based plastic.
(19:50):
Guess what else is a polyolefin based plastic?
PB.
Yeah, I get that.
But I think it's, think we are talking about two different systems altogether.
I mean, the amount of lawsuits and the amount of money paid out for PB is exponentiallylarger than anything that has happened in the entire life of and they've been around about
(20:14):
the same period of, mean, different periods, but the same amount of years, right?
PB was like,
quick.
Let me read these off to you real quick, Matt.
So these are the ones that Johnson in.
So 2013, there was a case filed.
was Cole versus NIBCOing.
Yeah, 2013.
(20:35):
yeah, we'll get to the rest.
That was the core allegation was that PEX tubing brass fitting.
So you got it there and stainless clamps oxidize and de-zincify and leak.
And 2021 only four years ago, four years ago, this was brasswell versus bow plumbinggroup.
had white bow PEX tubing oxidizes and fails that paid out 8 million August 29, 2024.
(21:00):
Then 2023 it was Currico versus
a uponer oxidative degeneration of uponer pex pipe.
Court denied the motion to dismiss and the discovery is still underway as of March of2025.
Then I missed this one here 2021 again, Matt Storr versus uponer.
(21:22):
So uponer again brought up here.
Pipe cracking was another issue with that one.
Australia had one in 2024 that was hot water pecs lines were rupturing.
And then 2025 here, this was McCoy versus upon her again.
So you hear that name keep coming up.
(21:43):
Micro cracks and oxidation in red, white and blue aqua pecs piping.
The biggest one that was paid out.
And this one is still ongoing and this is coming back to once again, desyncifyingfittings.
ah There's a fund of 125 million for it with final payments issued this month.
(22:04):
those, John, those are the ones just that you sent in there.
Those are just in the last 10 years.
And then I sent you like four of them that are ongoing where they're still doing, there'sa whole law process and I don't understand it.
It's all I can explain is it's in the process.
But in 2011, was the lawsuit against Upanore was categorized by the construction, yeah,categorized by the construction defect center as possibly the largest effective plumbing
(22:34):
recall in US history.
That's just that one, okay?
uh However, I don't care.
It really doesn't matter.
The point is there's issues with this pex.
So why would you ignore all this stuff?
To me, that's like ignoring the cracks in the foundation and then being surprised if thehouse falls down.
(22:56):
It doesn't make any sense.
Let's look into this, right?
Instead of ignoring, honest to God, I think if you ignore it, that's professionalnegligence.
Well, but mean, like, is there, we have issues with other pipes too.
Like, what do you think the solution is?
I think that's really where, like we have to pivot.
if, if, if, PECS has all these problems, then what's the, what's the solution?
(23:20):
I don't know.
I am not sitting here to try to say this is the solution.
That's not my job.
My job is to go, hey, guys and gals, you need to look into this.
OK?
Yeah, so you can sit here and make arguments a little.
Anyway, you can sit here and make the arguments.
It doesn't make any difference.
There are issues with pecs.
(23:42):
And I think everybody needs to have some type of disclosure statement, whatever you arecomfortable with.
I don't care if you use ours or not.
You don't hurt my feelings.
And you don't get to me when you insult me.
I'm too old to give a crap.
So, you know, it doesn't matter to me.
I want you to go discover and I want you to come up with some kind of disclosure.
(24:06):
Is that fair?
I don't know.
that makes sense.
I get where you're coming from.
it makes sense, but I just, you know, the one thing that I, I mean, look, I'm not sayingthat your findings and your opinions are not based in facts or at least, you know, things
that you have read.
But I mean, I don't, I would have to do my own research before I considered any type ofdisclaimer because I don't want to be a fear monger.
(24:35):
And I really think that like, you know, I
You know, there are an awful lot of people buying houses with pecs and there are an awfullot of houses being repiped with pecs.
And if we throw some type of strong disclaimer out there, mean, look, it's not, I put in adisclaimer about federal Pacific electric.
(24:56):
I don't think we're in the same category personally.
think it's worse because there's more.
There's more of it.
don't I don't have any I don't think I can back that up.
I don't feel like I could back that up as being worse.
of where's the line at what point we call it out, right?
That's our thing as inspectors.
It's like, when do you call it out?
(25:17):
Where do you call it out?
We call out polybutylene because it was banned, right, as a material.
So do you call it out in advance of that or do you call it out after it's no longer anapproved material?
Listen, we have gone through this with so many other things and everybody made the sameexact arguments with FPE, with polybutylene, with Bulldog, with Zinsko, with whatever.
(25:41):
Okay.
They make the same exact arguments and then time will tell.
And then all of a you prove it.
I've lived through the whole polybutylene thing.
I've been doing inspections since 98.
All right.
I've lived through that whole thing where we're going, we're starting to learn about poly.
You're going, holy cow, are you kidding?
But it's so everybody's using it.
We all use the same argument.
Everybody's using it and it's so awesome.
(26:02):
And it does all these things and saves so much time and et cetera.
And it did nothing but get worse and worse and worse, right?
Answer me this.
In Florida specifically, insurance is a huge deal.
it's uh recently citizens has added PECS specifically to their form.
(26:23):
If there were no issues with PECS, we would not be seeing this.
on the insurance forms.
And I have had for years and years ago, people still calling the office going, hey, I'mgetting canceled.
My insurance is getting canceled because I have PECs or they're giving me so much timebefore I have to replumb.
Why didn't you tell me this?
We have had disclosures for a long time.
Now, again, come up with your own disclosure.
(26:45):
Hold on, Matt, come up with your own disclosure.
Even if it's something as simple as some systems have had issues, I recommend you lookinto this yourself.
Something simple that Matt feels comfortable with.
Yeah.
But I mean, like determining insurability, at least in Texas, isn't our job.
So, I mean, like, I don't really see that.
(27:06):
Florida.
Okay?
But again, I'm not here to argue that point.
Yes, but I'm not here to argue the point.
It's instruments.
Dude, you can get denied for debris in your gutter.
huge.
Yeah, no, I get that.
Like insurance is huge.
That's a big deal to a homeowner, but determining insurability, at least by Texasstandards, that isn't what we do.
(27:30):
uh And so and so, you know, it wouldn't that wouldn't be I mean, I know that you guys dohave some different inspections that are related specifically to insurance that we don't
do here.
You know, when Mets and whatnot.
ah
that you have a major insurer that has recognized there's issues with it and they don'twant to pay the claims.
That's what it boils down to is the money.
(27:51):
They don't want to pay the claims.
Okay, so I'm telling you it is PEX is an issue and there's a lot of them.
You have the chemical permeation, you have the oxidation, the chlorination degradation,the fungal growth.
There's so many things and speaking of chlorination degradation, 98 % of the United States
(28:11):
treats their water, sanitizes their water with some form of chlorine.
Okay?
If you're lucky enough to be in that 2%, God bless you, that's fantastic.
But 98 % of municipalities sanitize their water with some type of chlorine, chloramines,chlorine dioxide, and the chlorine dioxide has now, PECS has come out and says, oh, if you
(28:33):
are using chlorine dioxide to sanitize your water, don't use our product.
It's in their, it's in, they typed it, not me, okay?
And the number of facilities that are changing from other chlorine type of sanitizationstuff to this chlorine dioxide is growing.
Huge, very, very large numbers.
(28:53):
So even if today you're not in that category where they're using the chlorine dioxide, youmight be tomorrow, next week, next year.
uh
a comp here, would be almost like that.
Matt, I don't know if they have this in Texas.
I encountered it plenty up in Virginia and DC.
But like Atlas Chalet shingle, where it was made to look like architectural shingle, butit fell apart in no time.
(29:21):
And now I don't.
I can't speak to a ban being in place on it.
Maybe after a while there was, but ah it was something that I called out anytime that Ifound it just because it was known to have issues, even though I found instances of its
use.
So maybe this is something that we're looking at where it's kind of going the route.
(29:41):
We haven't quite reached a polybutylene ban on PEX, but it might be something where it'slike there's known defects just as there were with that with Shelly shingles.
Is that something?
can the product get better over time?
I guess it would depend on the chemical makeup, wouldn't it?
mean, well, I mean, mean, it can be manufactured to do.
(30:03):
I'm sorry, you meant what?
I think he's saying like, we learn things about the pipe and we correct things about thepipe.
And then I think it can be manufactured better over time, possibly, or installed betterover time.
mean, if leaching is a problem, you can sleeve it.
There are practices that could help reduce things that are happening.
(30:27):
called for back in the original EIR.
They said, uh okay, if you're going to use it, then you have to sleeve it.
And it was codified for a while.
And then the plastic industry, whatever fought back in California, ran out of money.
Go figure, right?
And so that kind of died out.
But okay, if you can solve a problem or maybe the fungal growth problem, maybe you cansolve some of those issues with that.
(30:54):
You still have others.
So again, my point is, guys, there's a long list of issues here and you need to look intothem and come up with your disclosure.
yeah, I, yeah, I don't know.
I mean, that would be like me disclosing builders that have known issues with theirbuilds.
(31:15):
I don't, I don't.
Yeah, I don't actually, but I mean like, but no, I mean like some people do, right?
But I mean like, I, I, I feel like that's what it's like, you know?
And I think, I think it's so, a lot of the things are region specific.
fitting specific, installation specific.
And so I just wonder as inspectors, mean, look, I want to provide my clients with the bestpossible inspection money can buy.
(31:44):
But I also, I mean, I could freak them out literally about almost everything about theirhome.
And I mean, you know, a lot of this, a lot of things, I think come down to what someonecan afford.
There's a lot of things to factor in.
mean, if someone's buying a house from the 70s and it's got galvanized pipe in it, theyare bound to have, I mean, it is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when they are going
(32:13):
to have catastrophic problems of some sort.
And so they need to consider repiping.
They, you know, a standard 2,500 square foot house, you're looking at six to $12,000 toput pecs in.
You're looking at 15 to $30,000 to put copper in.
Like, I don't know.
And then, and then there's a factor of at least here, like in 2021, we never, we're kindof like Florida.
(32:36):
We don't freeze, but in 2021, we, we froze, right?
A lot of people want to act like that's a really big deal.
And it was for us at the time, but it was like a 500 year situation.
we're not gonna change our entire building practices based on this one event.
But what pipe held up during that time?
PECs.
Everything else, especially copper, busted.
(32:59):
A lot of catastrophic flooding situations happened in homes that had metal pipes.
I mean, some PVC too, but know, galvanized obviously, which is a problem.
I don't even wanna include that in there because it's such a anyway, but copper had a lotof problems.
And PECs had a few, but...
Not really.
And so I just think there's so many things to factor in.
(33:21):
But listen, and a lot of this degradation is from the inside out.
Okay, so you're looking at it and it looks fine.
The exact same defense that somebody with a Zinsko panel goes, well look, it's been therefor 20, 30, 40, 50 years, John, we've never had an issue with it.
You might and you might not know it, you can't see it.
So when you look at these things under a microscope, some of them you don't even need inthe microscope, you can see radial cracks.
(33:45):
I can show you numerous images of the cracks and maybe you can't see it from the surface.
And when is it going to reach that crack going to reach from the center to the surface?
When's it going to reach that tomorrow, next week, next month, next year?
Who knows?
The point is you said you want to provide the best possible product.
Then you are you, it's your responsibility to look into this and read about it, geteducated on it and come up with some type of disclosure because I don't want to see Matt
(34:12):
get sued over something that only took you a sentence to say, Hey, listen, I've done someresearch and there are some issues associated with this.
Here's some websites or here's additional things for you to look into because it's not ourjob to tell people to buy, not buy, anything else like that.
Educate.
I I get that.
(34:33):
I mean, like, I think that, like, as inspectors, like, I don't think, I don't know, it'shard for me to say that this this disclaimer is protecting us from any type of lawsuit.
I mean, it is, we're responsible for telling what kind of pipe the house has, but I don't,I mean, I don't see how it's, I mean, it's, it's covering us for sure to have some type
(34:56):
of, I could see that.
But I mean, I don't know at what cost.
I mean, there's like a
There's like a 90 % chance no matter what house somebody buys out here, they're buying itwith pecs.
um And so I don't, but I don't see where we're liable.
It's almost, mean, Matt, almost sounds like you're kind of, again, this is not todiscredit, ah you know, what John has been saying and the evidence that he's been
(35:20):
presenting, but it's almost like, where do you make the line on disclaimers?
Because I could in Florida go look at a 20 to 25 year shingle.
And we know in Florida, John, that that thing is going to last maybe 15 tops because we
here.
cook through shingles.
Yeah, we cook through shingles, right?
So if you don't, if somebody assumes because the homeowner told them when they bought it,yeah, that's a 30 year shingle.
(35:46):
And then they find out five years in, wait, it was 10 years old and now I have to replaceit.
Well, my home inspector should have told me, I mean, do you make a note?
Hey, we live in Florida, maybe consider getting metal or concrete tile or anything that'snot asphalt shingle or
you know, what do you, what do you say?
(36:07):
mean, where do you draw a line on that?
You know what's interesting?
As I've researched some of this stuff, I've gone into plumber forums to see what they haveto say about it.
And I will tell you what plumbers have to say about it.
50 % of them love it, 50 % of them hate it.
OK?
So ask your plumber and you're going to whatever.
You're going to get an opinion.
But look at the evidence.
(36:27):
Look at all these settled cases.
Look at all this stuff.
You cannot ignore it.
OK?
Do you know when chlorine degradation starts?
This is a thought I've meant to finish before.
Immediately.
After I did this presentation at our state association one time, and I had all kinds ofpeople upset, go figure, right?
But this one young lady, Megan Keith, her niche is 11 month.
(36:51):
She lives in an area where everything's new.
And that's her niche, 11 month inspections.
And she's like, my God, this is what I'm seeing.
Now she understands it.
again, I can show you numerous images of chlorine degradation, what it looks like.
And you need to know what to look for, that popcorning and that yellowing.
of the pipe, that's chlorine degradation or chlorination degradation, whatever you want tocall that.
(37:14):
Yeah.
Where are you seeing the pipe?
We see the pipe all over the place in the garage, the attic, because it's all exposed.
there's very little pipe exposed and usually almost none unless it's always covered withinsulation or pipe insulation.
So if you can't see it, does it make it untrue?
(37:35):
Of course not.
Okay.
The good thing is I can see it and I can show you the pictures.
The pipes eventually turn yellow.
They start what they call popcorning and you get in yellow spots.
That is chlorination degradation, which occurs on the interior.
you see, first of all, PEX is inherently incompatible with chlorine treated water, whichis where I was going with the 98 % of the country.
(38:00):
is using that.
So they have to add antioxidants to it so it doesn't break down as fast.
Well, all of these things uh accelerate that process.
Heat, you know, you, Mr.
Plummer, mentioned heat, uh the exposure, obviously, the chlorine, those kinds of things,just to accelerate it.
uh So if you had it, if you kept it away from heat, would that prolong it?
(38:24):
Yeah, maybe.
OK, but again, it does not make any difference.
There are these issues exist and I don't make them up.
You can read them for yourself.
I'll be happy to provide resources for you to read yourself.
it's everybody's obligation as a home inspector if our job is to provide someclarification of something so somebody can make an informed decision.
(38:48):
That's all I'm asking.
that seems to be what you're getting at right there.
It's educating about what information is available.
Right, right.
You know what?
I was mentioning a year earlier this everybody is aware that the old 410A refrigerant isgoing out and the what was it 454B or and some 32 and something.
OK, so there's whatever this new refrigerant is coming out.
(39:11):
It's codified.
It's all over the country.
And what if I sat here and told you, holy cow, did you see all the fires that arehappening because of this refrigerant?
And all of a sudden they're they're combusting.
Systems are combusting.
Would you sit there and say, yeah, but wait a minute, they're installing all over theUnited States, so I'm going to ignore everything you're telling me.
Well, that would be ignorant, right?
Now, hold on, right?
(39:34):
I'm right.
You would have to go, wow, well, let me look into this.
Let me read these news stories.
Let me read this and find out, is this a regional thing?
Your obligation would be to educate yourself and find out about it, is my point.
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
what I'm saying.
I don't think that's the point I'm trying to make.
I'm trying to figure out how to articulate it.
(39:56):
But if someone is going to buy a house, OK, all right.
If you want to talk about the refrigerant, if someone's going to buy a house within acertain time frame, it's going to have that.
If someone's going to buy a house right now, whether it's new or in the last five or sixyears, it's
(40:18):
almost 100 % going to have pecs in it.
And so, I I could, I could, I could, I'm not saying it does.
I'm not saying it does, but does it make me a better inspector to tell them, hey, this,this product is probably going to fail on you at some point.
Um, and to tell them that, I mean, is it, I mean, I don't know.
(40:41):
We're, we're, that's speculation, but that's
But that's speculation.
We don't know if any of that's going to happen.
Well, it don't.
But no, you've read about specific.
and years and years, more than the 10 years that we're talking about.
It's proven.
The scientists have proven all this stuff with oh their fancy magnifying glasses and allthis stuff.
(41:07):
It's all proven.
The chemical permeation, UV degradation, uh chlorination degradation, oxidation, thefungal growth.
It goes on and on and on.
I-
know, man.
I don't know.
It's let's kick it to the audience here because I think this is a great place becauseagain, you guys have been sounding off on this for the past six months on two episodes.
(41:31):
This is now the third we're doing on it.
So we want to hear respectfully.
We want to hear y'all's opinion as an inspector.
Are you guys calling this out?
Do you have a disclaimer?
What are you saying in that disclaimer?
And again, let's say let's open this up.
Is this something that's specific to PECS alone or are you guys aware of any lawsuits thathave applied to CPVC?
(41:52):
and PVC or any materials before that.
Where do we draw the line as inspectors on what we call out, what we don't, whatdisclaimers we use, and basically what we go through and approve of or alert buyers to?
ah Drop it in the comments.
Please share this with other inspectors so we can get them to buy in on this as well,because I want this to be a community-wide discussion.
(42:16):
And we welcome y'all's opinions here, for sure.
and please make it a discussion.
Okay, don't sit here and say, it's installed everywhere.
Therefore, okay, that's not an argument.
You know what saying?
don't want it to be that's not the argument that I'm making.
I just think that like, say this and I so I freaked them out and now what are they goingto do?
(42:41):
If you put some scary disclaimer in your report about this, what are they going to do?
Okay, well then don't.
Then don't do that.
I'm saying there are ramifications for ignoring it.
When I was going through a lot of these forms and stuff reading about it, because again, Ididn't come up with this opinion.
(43:06):
Everybody else, the facts did, the lawsuits did.
I'm finding all kinds of complaints from consumers.
My inspector didn't tell me.
And they're making social media posts.
I can't get insurance because...
The inspector missed it.
You can find those too.
I did not make this up.
I'll let you read them.
(43:27):
So, so, so, hey, it is what it is.
There's ramifications of the morning.
But did the inspector miss it?
It doesn't matter.
It does.
It matters a great deal to the inspector.
is mad and they're making social media posts about it.
It doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong.
They are going to make the social media post.
You know, it matters.
We have our job has limitations.
(43:49):
It is very clear.
middle of the road here guys.
What if you just the same way that we have a life expectancy or at least in my reports, Iput a life expectancy on appliances and materials, right?
Roof.
kitchen appliances, heating and cooling, water heaters.
I put life expectancies.
When it comes to plumbing, can we say for a fact, hey, you might be good with this for 20to 30 years.
(44:13):
It's rated for a 50 year life expectancy, but there are known issues that could cause thelife expectancy to be shortened.
Just you need to be aware.
What if you said life expectancy may vary?
That could work.
Yeah, yeah.
you say, I just want to protect you.
That's all.
we're, but that's where we're getting that.
Like what I think Matt was driving home at is, is what, what can we do with thisinformation that helps the buyer?
(44:36):
I think that's what he was really getting at.
So, I mean, I feel like that's a good solution right there where you can give a lifeexpectancy or simply say that it varies due to known conditions.
that may be affected by your water, have a water test done to uh clarify quality in yourarea.
mean, you could, because again, that goes beyond the scope of the inspection there, butthat's something that you could do if you really, really want to know the nuts and bolts
(45:01):
of your home is what kind of effect is the water quality having on the piping in yourhome?
It could be completely different.
mean, we're talking, John, we're talking in Florida in a place where, you know, water istreated with chlorine, but is this going to apply on a private well system?
that's mineral rich and fairly clean, you know?
You know, that's funny you mentioned that because that's a great question.
(45:22):
I don't have the technical answer to it, but in one of these forums, a guy, and I use thisin my presentation.
I've got a two hour presentation on PECS.
All these facts, and I show you the pictures, the lawsuits, you read it for yourself.
But one of the guys that responds, goes, I'm having all these problems, the leaks, etcetera, et cetera.
I'm on a well.
Some of these leaks are coming from mechanical stresses.
(45:46):
That's another one of the weak points.
When you start, you know,
bragging and show how you can bend this stuff you're causing That's the impetus of thecrack development
to, or it can even go back to a pressure reducing valve that's oversized for the capacityof the home or for the pipe.
that, again, if it's over pressurizing the pipe, that's going to cause failures no matterwhat material you're using.
(46:10):
Yeah, I don't recall any pressure issues with pecs, that being part of the defect.
It's all been the, and we've talked a lot about the pipe because that's where people aresaying, well, it's only the fittings.
It's only de-zincification in the brass fittings causing occlusion and et cetera, etcetera.
It's not just the fittings.
And you know, back in God, 10, 15 years ago, whatever it was, when everybody was learningabout de-zincification, what is that?
(46:37):
Well, that was something we learned and it was the F-1807 Cupex issues.
Then there was a lawsuit after that that said for all the other bright brass fittings.
So it's not just the F-1807s, it's all the other ones.
A of lawsuits, done.
So again, it's not fittings, it's fittings and pipes.
some of these lawsuits even include the stainless steel ones.
(47:00):
One of the manufacturers I forget right now, tuck my head.
uh stopped manufacturing those stainless steel fittings because of failures.
I can't go on and on and on.
My point is guys and gals, read for yourself, come up with a disclosure that you arecomfortable with because I don't want to get you sued.
If you do, well, that's your own.
If you choose to ignore, if you choose to not say anything, you might get away with it,but you might not.
(47:26):
Now, John, we appreciate it.
Seriously, man.
This has been a ton of information.
And again, you know, it's yeah, very helpful, very educational.
And we want to kick it back to the comments, you know, guys, sound sign, which I wasagainst sound off in the comments on your take on this, what you've read and researched
yourself.
it verify everything that John's saying?
Have you seen what he's seeing?
(47:47):
And if you're using disclaimers, what are you saying?
How are you warning it?
Um, and if, I was, yeah, go ahead.
to say something, I mean, like, regardless of the fact that we may have some difference ofopinions or, or, whether or not I choose to disclose this or how I choose to disclose this
or how you choose to disclose this, I have learned some things for you today and Iappreciate your commentary.
(48:11):
I appreciate your take on everything.
I appreciate you being on here and I like that we can have these types of discussions.
Even if friction occurs, we learn something from that friction and I
do intend to be the very best inspector I can be.
And whether or not it's a consideration of something like a disclosure like this andeveryone else out there, whether you choose to do this or like Brad was saying earlier,
(48:34):
some type of life expectancy, these types of conversations, we have to have these so thatwe can be the best we can be.
I'm fortunate to be a part of this conversation.
I thank both of you.
Thank you.
I appreciate that and I got an idea.
I got a great idea.
What if you had some kind of contest and use chat GPT if you want.
(48:55):
See who can come up with the best disclosure.
best disclosure.
Come up with the best disclosure.
Yeah.
Hey, post them in the comments.
Seriously.
And look, you guys can go in and like it.
Right?
One with the most likes, dude, we'll send a gift card.
We'll send some t ra swag, something bad.
That'd be pretty cool.
Because we're gonna we got some t ra swag that we're rolling out here at some point soon.
Everybody wants a t-shirt, right?
(49:17):
A ride along t-shirt.
Well, the funny here's what's funny guys.
Like when we jumped on we were like, hey, let's let's just make this it's a Sunday we'rerecording.
We all want to get in or enjoy the rest of our weekends.
We're like, this is just going to be a short one.
No, we're at 50 minutes now.
Like, yeah, it's been good.
That's it, man.
That's it.
Get a little drink involved.
We get talking shop and here we are in almost an hour.
(49:39):
So, john, thank you for being here, man.
We really appreciate it.
Thank you everybody so much for watching.
Enjoy your Monday.
uh If you're listening to this, go check out Matt's presentation.
It's Dallas, right, Matt?
Yep.
DFW, actually, Richardson is the specific location.
Go check that out, four to six.
(49:59):
otherwise, we'll see you right here next time on.
The Ride Along.
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