Why Emotional Intelligence and Servant Leadership Are the Future of Work

What if the best leaders aren’t the ones who always have the answers, but the ones who know how to ask the right questions?

Learn from the incredible Angela Pappas in this unforgettable episode of The Ripple Effect Podcast! This conversation will leave you rethinking everything you know about career growth, team building, and what real leadership looks like today.

Angela’s journey is anything but ordinary. From leading software developers in cold data centers to building high-performing teams at Tesla and Palo Alto Networks, she’s seen firsthand how empathy, emotional intelligence (EQ), and vulnerability aren’t just “soft skills.” They’re the foundation of servant leadership, high-performing teams, and long-term success.

Angela believes trust-based relationships empower people to embrace autonomy, find inspiration, and hold themselves accountable to deliver results. From diversity and inclusion to onboarding, leadership development, and performance management, Angela works to engage employees and leaders in learning, growing, and accelerating individual, team, and organizational performance.

Angela has led technical training, cybersecurity training, and professional development teams at Thomson Reuters, Tesla, and Palo Alto Networks. She’s thrilled about her current role at Lumen Technologies, using her learning and organization development skills to support the company’s transformation to a next-generation tech company, redefining what’s possible beyond telecom. 

Angela lives in Minnesota with her husband, daughter, and the dog that rules their home. She enjoys being in nature and speaks gratitude fluently.

Introductions aside, this episode is packed with authentic stories, leadership strategies that actually work, and candid moments that will make you rethink your role as a leader. You’ll hear how Angela helped launch talent initiatives in some of the world’s top tech companies, turned setbacks into leadership superpowers, and why creating positive Ripples in your organization matters more than ever.

Sometimes, all you need to do is admit that you can’t possibly know everything, listen with curiosity, and use what you’ve learned to face challenges with a brave face.

Make sure to listen until the end!

 

Connect with Angela Pappas: linkedin.com/in/angelapappas-learndevelop

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Let me just say, I have one ofthe best jobs on the planet,

(00:06):
because I get to meet some ofthe most brilliant individuals,
and I get to learn from them,and I get to serve those
conversations up for you, mybeautiful ripplers to listen to,
to watch and to learn frombrilliant entrepreneurs, game
changers, people that are doingunbelievably incredible work out

(00:28):
there. And I feel like I'mstealing, because it's like I
get a master class with thesepeople, which I'm recording and
stealing a little bit. So I canbring it to you and say, check
this out. But I am very, verygrateful because I get to meet
some of the most brilliant mindsever, and today's interview is
no exception to that. Let metell you, the ripples come home,
my friends, they do you createpositive ripples out there in

(00:51):
the world. More positive ripplescome your way. I interviewed
Jennifer Hutchinson just a fewepisodes back Jennifer and I
really hit it off. I love hervibe, like what she's doing, and
just out of the blue one day,she ripples a connection to
Angela Pappas, and she said,trust me, Steve, you guys are
going to get a long I just knowit. So Angela and I exchanged a

(01:15):
few emails. We talked about thepossibility of having, like, a
pre call, and I'm like, let'sjust go for it. Let's just do
it. And when you watch thisinterview, you're gonna think
we've been friends forever,because she and I are so
simpatico on so many levels. Sheis brilliant. She has come from
the tech world, so she's beeninvolved in a lot of things that

(01:35):
are very unique, which sheoutlines a little bit in the
interview. But her real skillset is coaching talent and
leadership development, andshe's amazing at it. Um, she has
such a calming sense, and I cansee why people look at her, at
the as the resource that she is,because she is tremendous. And

(01:55):
I'm so grateful she agreed to bea part of the ripple effect
podcast, sight unseen, so tospeak, she did see Jennifer's
interview, so she knew I wasn'ta complete moron. But even
despite that, she decided tocome on the show and put her
trust in me to see where we tookthe conversation and what I
think we ended up with, puregold, magic, magic, my friends,

(02:18):
you are going to want to knowAngela Pappas, and by the time
you're done with this interview,you are probably going to ripple
this on to some people that needto know about her, know about
the topic, and are probably opento learning why some of the
things Angela and I talk aboutare critical, no matter how
small or how big yourorganization is. So I'm ready to

(02:41):
dive in to This interview withAngel of Pappas. Enjoy. You.

(03:03):
Angela, thank you so much forjoining the ripple effect
podcast. How are you doing
today? I'm great. Steve, thankyou for having me. How are you I
am fantastic. I'm
super excited for thisconversation. I'm a little
nervous because you are asJennifer has suggested, a rock
star at what you do and the I'mexcited to learn a little bit
more about your career path andsort of especially your take on

(03:25):
leadership, because you'veworked with talent in leadership
development, in the roles thatyou've been in. But I really
want to give my audience just asense of kind of who you are, so
maybe just give us a high levelof how the awesome Angela we're
seeing today became the awesomeAngela that you are. So how did
that unfold? Tell us a littlebit about your background. Wow,

(03:47):
I love that. I will. Mybackground is actually in
technology. I went to college inOhio, and I got a degree in
professional writing, whichisn't tech in itself, but I did
an internship at IBM, and thatset my path to be in the tech
space. And so I been a was atechnical writer, technical
editor, technical writer, andmoved quickly into leading

(04:10):
teams. And moved out of techwriting very quickly, and
started to lead teams of processimprovement engineers and
software developers, and did alot of fun work in the tech
space, working in a data center.And when I mean data center, I
mean like bat cave, hollowfloor, low ceilings, dark, cold,

(04:32):
like all the things. That waswhat our building was like. So
it was a it was fun to come outof the it was called the E
building. We come out of the Ebuilding into the rest of the
building where everyone worked,and it was like, we were out on
out of jail or something.
Then you could warm up, right?Because it was in those days,
like, you know, those were,like, super cold environments,

(04:53):
exactly,
and you could warm up, that'sexactly right. Yeah, everyone
had extra jackets and sweaterson the back of their chairs.
Back. In. So it was a greatexperience. And it actually I
did a little pit stop in talentdevelopment, so I moved from the
tech side of the world over tothe side, and did program
management for enablingemployees to be the best they

(05:17):
can be. And that was a reallyfun experience. But then landed
back in tech, specifically ininformation security, which we
know more commonly, is referredto as cyber security. Yeah, so
was tapped on the shoulder tocome and do a job that I
literally had no idea what I wasdoing, and I had relationships
with people, and I knew how tobuild relationships. And so I

(05:41):
walked into that role reallyclueless, if I'm honest, but I
knew that I was going to beworking with customers, and that
was fun again, sort of beingoutside of that data center,
really focusing externally, notjust on the internal customer,
which is what I was used to. Andstepped into that, and then very
swiftly thought, you know, thisis a lot of fun, but we need

(06:02):
some more things aroundinformation security. We need to
do more communication, we needto do more training. And so I
and my leader in some smallteam, we set up the first
information security trainingand awareness program for
Thompson Reuters. And that was agreat just a
small company is tiny.

(06:24):
Let's test this out. These guysare so small, they'll be a good
place to experiment with this.Yeah.
Well, just, yeah, exactly. It'sno big deal. Yeah, it was a lot
of fun.
I mean, I got to ask, though,the question it was so in that
environment, that that's a lotof, that's a that's a big

(06:45):
project to tackle, I wouldimagine what, what was that like
walking into that when you'relike, Well, hey, I didn't know
much about this, but now we'redoing it. How? How did that
evolve? And you know, anylessons learned throughout that
process for yourself, as as youwere gaining your confidence.
Yes, one was to surround myselfwith people who had similar

(07:06):
experiences already. So I gotsuper involved with an
organization that was a cyberorganization, cyber security,
but they also had this trainingand awareness arm to them. And
so I got really involved withthat organization, and with
that, then was contributing andhelping to plan some annual

(07:27):
conferences, and so then reallyhaving myself surrounded with
those people, as well as reallyleaning into curiosity and
figuring out inside the company,what are the biggest pain
points, what are the things thatWe're trying to actually solve
with this program, and that,networking with the Super
engineers, great group of guysand gals, and really picking

(07:47):
their brains to understand, whatare employees actually doing
that's putting us at risk,because that's what we need to
tackle. So having thoseconversations, leaning into that
curiosity, recognizing that Ididn't know, and I think just
being honest about that, andthen surrounding myself with
people who are doing this workalready, and learning from them,

(08:08):
and and I was able to to feelmore confident and build those
skills of what are, what we'redoing here is the right thing to
be doing.
So I so I sort of described youas an entrepreneur, because it
did seem, based on the researchI did, that you kind of would
dive feet first into newopportunities, and you're like,

(08:29):
figuring it out on the fly,which I think makes a really,
really good contributor, becauseas I think about like InfoSec,
for example, like the securitypiece for an organization, maybe
not coming in with preconceivednotions or prior experience, but
coming in and asking thequestions that maybe some people
that are so close to that topicwould not think to ask or even

(08:51):
acknowledge, I think, reallylends some really strong value,
and especially if you're leadingthe team, the thing I hear from
you is like, I didn't have toknow everything. I brought in
the people that did know thosethings, but collectively, as a
as a team, we could collaborateand work together. And you were
probably pointing some thingsout they hadn't thought about
because they were so close tothe topic. Yes,

(09:12):
and likewise, they were teachingme things, and I was pointing
things out because I wasn't. Ididn't have the to your point, I
didn't have those assumed orthose lived experiences. And so
I was just kind of going off thecuff of, well, what about this?
And why wouldn't we do this? Andhow about that? So that that it,
those questions were powerful inthat sense.

(09:34):
I you know, we were introducedby Jennifer Hutchinson, a mutual
friend that we have that wasalso on my podcast, and now I'm
starting to see the connection.She didn't give a lot of detail
when she made the introduction,but I can see how you and I are
very similar. So one of thethings I had shared with her, I
think, was I actually own asoftware company in addition to

(09:56):
what I do with ripple. And I atmy age. I'm old, not. Ever
expected to actually be involvedin a software company at all
right? But I always tell peoplewhen they're like, you know, I
get on a sales call, or I talkto somebody that's recently come
on board, and I'm like, Hey, I'mthe CEO, but I'm really the CDG.
I call myself the chief. Dumbguy I like, am not the smartest
person. I am smart enough tobring the right people to the

(10:19):
table to make it happen. But Ithink my superpower, my
strength, is I ask a lot ofquestions, because, like you,
I'm very curious, and every timeI ask the question and get a
data point or I learn something,get an answer that just builds
my stack right. And I think thatactually, from a leadership
perspective, makes you even morevaluable, because you're not

(10:40):
automatically coming in andsaying, here's how it needs to
be, and this is what we'redoing. And you know, you're
you're open to new ideas, andyou're a little more fluid or
organic in terms of decisionmaking, the approach that you
take especially, and I thinkthat reveals itself in the
people that you brought into theteam or that you're leading,
because you're giving them thespace and the flexibility to

(11:01):
operate at the level of whichyou pay, you know, you brought
them on and pay them to do it.So I see so many leaders that
then, you know, tamp down onthat, and they lose so much
potential. People leave hatetheir jobs, you know, don't feel
like they're contributing. So Ithink the way that you approach
it, I can see it now. I can seewhy there's a connection here.
For sure,

(11:21):
I love that, and I do think, Ithink for me, part of being
successful as a leader is beingvulnerable and sharing that you
don't have all the answers. Andactually, as a leader, it's not
our job to have all the answers.What I believe is our job is to
help our people either cultivatethe answers within themselves

(11:43):
and or point them to theresources who can be of help to
them. So I might not know, but Iknow six people who do, and so
let's connect you with those andyou can learn what you need to
learn from them. Yeah,
I talk about that all the time,as it relates to the ripple and
the process that I sort ofencourage people to do even in
their professional or personalor personal networks. It's
create that diversity, becauseif you don't have the answer,

(12:05):
chances are, if you'vecultivated good connections, or
you built really strongrelationships, you're probably
only one or two people away fromgetting the answer. And I've I
find a lot of times I, you know,it's actually speaking in a to a
conference a few weeks ago inLas Vegas, and I said, you know,
the most powerful question is aleader you can ask is, How can I
help you? Right? And somebodysaid, Well, yeah, but what if

(12:26):
they ask questions that youcan't answer? And they said,
well, then you're making mypoint right there, which is why
you need to have a solidnetwork. It's why you build a
network. As a leader, you'renothing more than just the
conduit between individuals,connections, resources,
information. And you don't haveto have the knowledge all in
here. You have to know theknowledge to know who the two or
three people are that we need totap to get their perspective,

(12:48):
their idea and maybe theirultimate solution or input.
Yeah. And so I love thatperspective. Did you always come
by that naturally with your asyou were coming up through your
career ranks? Was that somethingyou always sort of had, or did
you have to learn that as you,you know, came into different
environments? I
think it was wired in me. I'm apeople centered leader. I start

(13:09):
with the people. So I think thatthere was some light wiring. But
I do think that my as I've ledmore teens in different
organizations, I have been ableto hone some of those skills
even at greater levels. And Iabsolutely love the Ken
Blanchard leadership model,which is the basically, at the
end of the day, it's aboutgiving your people what they

(13:31):
need when they need it, in a waythat's meaningful to them. And I
think that that is how Ioperate, and I think it is also
key to being an inclusive leaderand being a successful leader
with a diverse team of peoplewith that are coming from all
different walks of life. If yougive them what they need, when
they need it, in a way that'smeaningful to them, then you are

(13:53):
being you're ultimately helpingthem to be the best that they
can be. And you're not justthrowing blanket answers at
them. You're not just answeringthe questions for them giving
because you're helping them totap within and then also
pointing them to the rightpeople who can be of assistance
when they need
it. Man, I think you justprobably came up with the

(14:14):
perfect definition for servantleadership, right? I mean,
that's that's ideal for thosethat are are watching this video
or listening to this on thepodcast platforms, who may be
like, who's Ken Blanchard? Kenis like this management guru
who, which, for leaders like me,that kind of need to look at
books from a pop up perspective,right? He does these short, very

(14:37):
thoughtful, story driven kind ofbooks, but they're, they're
really designed to be airplanereads. His most famous one is
the One Minute Manager, and Ilove his philosophy and his
approach. And I got to behonest, you are literally the
first guest that has everbrought his name up. And I'm a
super fan of his. So youautomatically. Get a bonus. You

(15:00):
didn't know you were getting abonus today, but you get the
gold star. And I'm sending yousomething just to say, hey, you
know we are compadres when itcomes to Kim Blanchard, for
sure, I even got to meet him,which was a total blast. Oh,
wait, how long ago was that?Right before COVID? So January,
21 Gosh, was COVID in 2021Listen to me. It's all a blur. I

(15:23):
was out in California to becertified as a facilitator, and
no kidding, he comes in and he'sat the office. So he comes into
each class each week andintroduces himself and sits down
and has conversation.
That's awesome. Yeah, he is asalt of the earth kind of
individual, without question. Iactually spoke at a conference
back in Gosh, 2015 2016timeframe. And actually it was

(15:48):
at the same event that, Ibelieve it was the same event
that Stephen Covey was at, andit was a quite the difference
experience, right? COVID waslike this entourage guy, like,
there's two or three peoplearound him. You could, like, you
know, no pictures, that kind ofthing. Nice guy, I did get a
chance to talk to him, because Iwent on stage right before he

(16:10):
did. But then Kim Blanchard wasjust, like, just showed up, you
know, kind of like, you thoughthe was just a regular conference
goer. And the most humble, I'mnot that Stephen Covey wasn't,
but Ken just came across as themost humble guy and wasn't
there. Didn't want any specialtreatment, didn't want to go to
the green room the speakersnormally go to because he wanted

(16:31):
to be out with people talking.What? What are you hearing? What
are you learning? What are youexperiencing? What? What new
leadership strategies are youguys uncovering out there that I
might need to write about? Ijust thought it was just such a
cool, cool way to approach it.So, yeah, I bet that was, I bet
that was a thrill for you tomeet him as well.
It was an absolute thrill. Andif I can tell you a quick story,
yeah, I was out there for theweek. I had a teammate of mine

(16:54):
that was also getting certified.So we rented an Airbnb because
it was cheaper than a hotel,sure, and that house that we
rented had previously been ownedby the person that Ken had been
in business with and had writtensome other books with. They had
since parted ways, but in thisgentleman's passing, I'm

(17:14):
blanking on his name. If Ilooked at the books behind me, I
could get get his name, but wewere in his house, so the owner
said to us, he's like, you saidyou're doing the Ken Blanchard
certification. He's like, so Ihave to tell you who used to own
this.
Paul Hersey. Paul Hershey, oh,yes, I know that name. Yeah,
you're in
his house. So it was just like,Oh, wow. Just all of it coming.

(17:36):
It was just so interesting howit was seemed synchronistic,
yeah, that's like, that's a fullcircle moment, right there.
That's pretty cool.
Well, so, so you obviously havea direction that you like in
terms of the technical, securityspace, that same that seems to
tick a box for you. Howdifferent is that in what you do

(17:57):
with that work, in comparison towhat you do with talent and
development, like, you know,leadership development.
So I think it's, it's differentin the sense that I'm fully
smack in the role of helpingpeople develop, whereas when I
was in the tech space, it waspart of my job as a leader.
Yeah, I was, I went to Tesla in2018 and so that is when I made

(18:21):
the shift from the HR domain,excuse me, the tech domain, to
the HR domain. Okay? And thereason I was able to do that a
couple different things. One, Iwas tapped on the shoulder by
some leaders at ThompsonReuters. So in addition to the
security awareness and trainingprogram, I was tapped on the
shoulder to be immersedcompletely as a facilitator in a

(18:43):
global culture and leadershipdevelopment initiative that we
kicked off. And so that reallybeing seen by those leaders and
being recognized for what Icould bring to that program that
really set my path to pivot andto be moving into that HR
domain. And so then it was atthat point I was like, I really

(19:04):
want to do this full time. Idon't want this to be a side
gig, right of my day job. Oh,okay, yeah. So then I Tesla came
and said, hey, we'd love for youto come lead our technical
trainers that train the servicetechnicians. So it was a great
fit, because it was still inthat tech space, but it was
leveraging my leadership skillsand leveraging my transferable
skills that we all have. All ofus have transferable skills,

(19:27):
right? And so that was
all you cool people. I don'tthink I have any transferable
skills.
I highly doubt that I could. Icould name three already, and
I've only been talking to youfor 28 minutes, so that that
that was what led me to moveinto that space, full time, and

(19:48):
it was an amazing experience.And was there some, was there a
little bit of drinking from thefire hose? Absolutely for sure,
there was good,
I was thinking you were going tostop it, like, was there a
little. Go to drinking. Yes,
maybe that too, but yeah, it wasthat is a that's a huge, like

(20:09):
180 shift right in, in a lot ofrespects, and now, like you
almost feel like the response,of course, security and, you
know, avoiding any potentialpitfalls or compromises from a
security perspective. I don'twant to undersell the value and
the importance of that, but nowyou are kind of literally
holding, you know, people'scareers in the palm of your

(20:31):
hand, and whether they'resuccessful or not really has a
direct correlation to your jobperformance. And you know your
overall the way your, you know,your bosses would look at what
you were doing for them. Sothere is a, you know, I think
people that make this shiftdon't think it's that big a
deal, and then you realize, ohmy gosh, the level of
responsibility that comes withthis is significant.

(20:53):
Right? When it's not just youryour fun job on top of your day
job, it's a completely shift.It's a complete shift in your in
your lens and in yourperspective. So it was, it was a
good shift. That was a greatshift. Unfortunately, it didn't
last long, because Elon laid off15% of the workforce to build
the model threes, and so my rolewas eliminated, but I was able

(21:17):
to land at a cybersecuritycompany called Powell to
networks. And that was a really,really cool experience to come
into that environment, come intoa company that was growing,
remember, tr was 60,000 people,right? And so I'm gone to Tesla,
which it was tiny compared tothat. Now I'm at pal, which is
tiny compared to that. And sogetting all these experiences

(21:39):
that I haven't had beforebecause of being at TR most of
my career, it's like there wasno red tape, there's no
bureaucracy, like you can getstuff done faster, and it was
just so exhilarating. And so itwas like whiplash, because we
were constantly your head's on aswivel of all the things that

(22:01):
need to happen and when theyneed to happen by but you feel
supported. You're all in ittogether. Um, I came in to stand
up a global graduate program. Ialso did some Manager
Development. I did professionaldevelopment. I mean, we were all
in the weeds on everything,because there weren't a ton of
us at the beginning. Yeah, yeah.Really a brilliant experience.
Well, I gotta ask you, comingfrom that space, especially in a

(22:23):
growing concern, like a companythat is in, you know, either
receiving another round offunding or is hit, a hit, a
growth plan, you know, a growthpath that seems like that. What
you would do for them would bevery needed. But what shocks me,
and tell me if this is right, itcould be completely my

(22:43):
perception, but having done alot of corporate training and
and spent time in that space,actually as a provider, not
necessarily working in anorganization to do it, but it
seems like the organizations,it's one of the first areas that
they cut, which doesn't seemlike it's The smartest area to
cut. You know, when you'redecreasing your workforce, you

(23:03):
want to make sure that you'vegot training resources and
leadership support and employeedevelopment, all of that, you
know, locked down so that thepeople are being asked to do
more. Don't get pissed off andleave or, you know, just stop
putting, you know, caring behindthe work that they do. It seems
like that role would become evenmore critical, but I've seen it

(23:24):
at Apple, I've seen it at Dell.I've seen it a lot of tech
spaces that that, unfortunately,is one of the first places that
they look to cut when they'reeither going through hyper
growth and they're trying toreduce some of the spend, or
they've had a slowdown in thebusiness unit and the people
that you would count on to bringyour people through that are the
ones that are the ones in thecrosshairs. It doesn't make

(23:46):
sense to be
it's interesting, isn't it,because it does seem like an
oxymoron. It's opposite to whatwe would do. And what I would
offer is that the CEO nekesh andthe CPO were absolutely in
alignment around the developmentof people and the critical role
that it played in in helping theorganization Excel and meeting

(24:10):
the goals that have been setout. And if we didn't have
people skilled to do that, thenwe were at a loss. And so there
was a huge focus on people,people first, because nothing
else happens if you don't havethe people that you need. And
they, the whole leadership team,understood that, and so I think
that that's why there was somuch focus and energy and

(24:31):
resources for us to do the workthat we needed to do to really
develop people across theorganization
based on your experience. Couldyou boil down like three to five
things that you typically lookedat when you were working with
someone, one on one, to helpthem achieve, you know, the next
level with their career path, orto advance as a leader? You

(24:53):
know, just a you know thingsthat you might naturally
gravitate towards, that arethings. That either everybody
misses or things that maybepeople haven't put enough time
or energy towards,
I think we often get sucked intowhat's their technical skill.
That's where we get our focus.And I think we lose sight that

(25:15):
just because someone has amazingtechnical skill doesn't make
them an amazing people leader.They're not mutually exclusive.
And so what I what I always liketo start with, is the idea of
this self awareness. So do weunderstand how we operate? Do we
understand how we show up, howwe communicate, how we build

(25:36):
relationship? Do we buildrelationship? How do we operate?
What's our what makes us tick,and I think that's really
critical with any person, butespecially when we're looking at
the leader level, they have tohave that understanding. And so
I think a high EQ is the firstand foremost thing, from my
perspective, that is going tohelp people be successful in

(25:57):
whatever role that they're in.So I think that, I think the
ability to communicate clearlyand the ability to give feedback
that is both constructive, butkind I think that that's, I
think of Kim Scott and radicalcandor, and I absolutely love
what the work that she's donethere. We actually brought Kim
Scott into Palo Alto Networks asa speaker to meet with her. It

(26:20):
was, it was a really amazingexperience. So I think that that
the ability to give and receivefeedback, to clearly communicate
and these are kind of thosetransferable skills, right?
Sure, I think that if we have,if we have that baseline of
things, then the rest of the ofthe components just kind of fall

(26:41):
into place, but I think thatthose are the essential, the
foundation, the bedrock to everyperson being successful. And I
think I might have gone a littlebit off on tangent, but everyone
being successful in theircareer, and that's where we
like, where I like to start, asa coach and as a people here,
I love that. Do you think thatif you had someone in the

(27:04):
audience that's like, well, Idon't, I don't have someone like
Angela at my company, or Idon't, you know, I'm not lucky
enough to be of the size to beable to bring somebody like that
in. What do you recommend forfolks that are out there either
trying to, you know, they'reeither part of a small team, or
they're doing their, you know,doing a side hustle, growing a
business or an operation, orthey're starting to scale their

(27:25):
own business and starting tothink like, hey, you know, this
is this really makes sense. Butyou know, I can only do so much
because I'm the leader, andeverything falls on me. So how
do you encourage those folks toeither A, go self educate and B,
how do you know when it's timeto bring someone like you in as
a, you know, full timecontributing member of the team?

(27:48):
I think that I can myself as anas an example, I was sort of in
between. I'd kind of outgrownthe role I was in, the level I
was in, but I wasn't quite readyfor the next. And my manager saw
that, and she knew that I wascapable of doing more, but I
just needed some refining, ifyou will, and a little bit of at

(28:09):
the end of the day, it was aboutbuilding my confidence and so
that she had resources for me tobe coached by someone. And that
really was a huge opportunityfor me to to move into that next
level, because I built. I notbuilt. I increased my self

(28:31):
awareness. I understood where Ihad an opportunity to grow and
develop, and what I started waswith was my own self worth and
my own confidence. And when Ibuilt that, the other things
fell into place. Now that mightnot be everyone's story, but it
certainly was mine. So the skillwas there, but sort of this

(28:54):
imposter syndrome, because Imoved out of that tech domain
into the HR domain sitting on myshoulder and sort of saying, you
know, you're actually this isn'treally what you should be doing.
And so that coaching and thatreally diving into where's that
story coming from, enabled me tomove through it, acknowledge it,
move through it, and get movedto that next level of job that I

(29:17):
that I wanted and that Ideserved. I
love that well. And you, and youbrought up the term coaching, is
that, how you sort of gear whatyou do, like, you know, from
from an organizationperspective, is that you are,
that you know that coach andthat resource that folks can
come to. And maybe, maybe I'mstruggling. I know I want to

(29:38):
continue to be here at thecompany, but I'm struggling to
find my my purpose, or where Ireally fit, which I think a lot
of times, you know, especiallyin today's corporate world, and
I don't think it's exclusivejust the tech. I think it's a
lot of organizations are are,you know, they don't give you
the road map to success. And Ithink that people often are

(29:59):
trying. To figure it out on thefly. And sadly, you know, more
people are smarter than me, butI'm not very good at figuring
that out on the fly when,especially when it comes to the
topic of me, right? You know,and I'm not. I need that
outsider's perspective. I need asounding board. I need someone
that can coach me through thegood times and the bad. What's

(30:20):
your you know, I'm I'm curious,how does that impact how you go
about coaching the folks thatyou get the opportunity to work
with? So yes, to answer yourquestion, I I was a people
leader, so I was a coach to myteam, but then I worked a ton
with people in the business, andso then could be also a mentor

(30:42):
and a coach for them, and theyknew that. And yes, people would
come to me and ask questions,and I don't know that I would
say that there was this ongoingformal coaching relationship,
because unfortunately, peoplefelt like they didn't have time,
which is sad. That's, I don'tthink an unusual thing. I think
it's more common than than Iwould like it to be. So being
that coach, and when I when Icoach people, I'm not giving

(31:04):
them the answers. The answersare within and so all I like to
do is ask powerful questions forthem to get to those answers
that are a fit for for what theyneed and where they want to go.
I can't decide that for them.They have to, they have to do
that work. But I can be there topartner with them on sort of
exploratory process, and thatdiscovery phase, if you will.

(31:27):
And I think after the discoveryphase, then you can have that
transformation phase, but notuntil you've kind of figured out
some of those things that sitwithin so powerful questions.
And I think that that is whenpeople can lean into that and be
open, to be honest withthemselves. It can really

(31:48):
provide answers that they needin order to do whatever it is
that they want to do if theywant to get promoted. And to
your point, around sort of aWhat does success look like? I
would offer that the days aregone of this ladder approach,
right? Our careers are not aladder. They're a jungle gym and

(32:09):
sweeping back and forth, and sothe moves might be lateral, but
you're picking up all thesefabulous experiences and
transferable skills along theway, so that at some point maybe
you do go up. But if all we'redoing is climbing, we're missing
the opportunity to build thisbroad level of experience that I
think fuels us and serves us aswe as we mature in our careers.

(32:35):
I love
that. I i will have to borrowthat and give you proper credit
for the jungle gym analysisanalogy. I love that, because
you are right. Everybody thinksabout advancement as up, up, up,
but you have to climb over or onsomebody in order to get there
in most cases. And I thinkthat's where I think
organizations that really getit, that understand it, they

(32:57):
would bring folks like yourselfin to be a part of that team.
Know that the opportunity to getthe best out of their people is
there, but you can't gamify it,and you can't you can't create
an Uber competitive environment,because then people won't be
open or share collaborative,they won't innovate together.
That's right, but you have tohave, you have to strike a
balance. And I think that thesad thing for what I see in a

(33:19):
lot of corporations is it's, youknow, it's a dog eat dog world,
right? And, and they're theleadership is like, well, you
know, it's survival of thefittest. And whoever's here at
the end is whoever's here at theend. It's like, you invested all
this time and money to bringevery single person that comes
into that, you know, that plantor that company on a daily
basis. And why would you not tryto put the best possible things

(33:43):
in their path to make them thebest they can? And I'm not even
just saying from, you know, aselfish reason like more
productivity or moreprofitability or landing more
customers, but creating aculture and an environment where
people actually love the workthey do, because they not only
feel seen in what they do andhow they perform, but there is

(34:05):
encouragement to advance andgrow and expand those skill sets
and get better. And maybe youstart here doing one thing, kind
of like you are, and then moveand shift, and then you're doing
and you're, you know, stretchingyour legs in something new, but
you're leveraging the pastexperience to inform what you do
next and leveraging that, Idon't think there's enough
encouragement of that in mostcompanies, because they get so

(34:28):
bogged down in terms of growthor retention or these high level
priorities, which are all very,very valid and important. But if
you don't have people thatreally are executing on the work
that love what they do, it'sgoing to come across somewhere,
yep,
yes. And I would offer to buildon what you said, when we also
have a culture where people canfail, that is where we can

(34:49):
really innovate and we can givepeople help, people feel safe.
We want to fail fast, feelquick, right? Yeah, but just
creating that environment to dothat. Yeah, especially when
we're talking about the techworld, you can, I believe that
you recognize extreme, extremelyhigher levels of innovation when
it's safe to do that. Yeah,yeah. And I think if, if people

(35:12):
don't feel that they can dothat, then you're stagnant as a
company. Because how can yougrow? How can you excel, and how
do you engage and motivatepeople if they're not feeling
safe, to build on what you towhat you said,
yeah, oh, absolutely, I lovethat. Well, you brought up
failure. So that makes me thinkof a ripple connection question,
what's a failure you had in yourcareer that you actually learned

(35:33):
from and, you know, maybe stillinforms what you do day to day?
Now
I when I took on theresponsibility to be the lead of
a managed a group of softwareengineers. I really was out of
my comfort zone. I had not donethat job, and I asked me if I

(35:56):
would, and I was like, Sure. Whynot? I mean, I this is me my
whole career, sure. I don't knowwhat I'm doing. I don't say that
out loud always, but often. ButI'll do it. I'll figure it out
like I'll figure it out. That'swhat we do, right? If I
developers,
there's not scary people, that'sright. I don't even talk
well, I would offer that I didnot do enough homework when I

(36:18):
went into that, into that space,and quickly realized that I was
not gaining their respect andtheir trust in in ways that had
become had come to me sonaturally, yeah, and easily
before, and I was just like,what is it that I'm not Doing
Right? Like, how? What's what'sgoing wrong here? And I had a

(36:43):
couple guys that were just hardon me, super hard on me, but
what I learned was I needed tobe even more curious, which some
deeper levels of curiosity. Ineeded to not act like I knew
what they were talking about.Always they and they because
they knew I didn't. So then justright, yeah, just and be like,

(37:05):
Excuse me. Can you say thatagain? Because yeah, didn't get
any of that, yeah. So mywillingness to be vulnerable in
that space and not into to notjust nod my head and smile, but
to say whole time out, I whatyou just said to me is like the
peanuts teacher. No idea what'sgoing on. So let's start over.

(37:25):
So when I was able to admit thatand willing to be vulnerable in
that space and also lean intotheir expertise and at either
even deeper levels, I builttrust with them, and we had
really strong relationship bythe time I moved on, and now I
remain friends with a couplereally good friends with a

(37:45):
couple of those people. And thatwas a scenario from like, almost
22 years ago. So it was a longtime ago, and I'm, I'm proud to
say that that it was a massivefailure, also, I would offer
that was not set up for success,which was a good learning Sure,
throw someone into the wolves.You know, you gotta give them a

(38:06):
fighting chance. Yeah, exactly,give them a fighting chance. But
because I was willing to do it,and sure, and I didn't ask a lot
of tough questions back, theywere like, Oh, she's got it.
Let's just throw her in there.Or I didn't. I did not have it,
but, and so it was a failure,but I also learned from that.
And so moving forward, and I ledteams, I came at it a little bit

(38:29):
differently. I started also withthem as individuals at a greater
level, which I maybe hadn't donewith them right away. Did more
of a team approach. And sothere's lots of things I learned
from that, and I think it'sbeen, it's constantly sort of
runs in the back of my head,that experience and what, how I
don't want to go back to that.
Well, yeah, and, I mean, it kindof informs how you function

(38:51):
today, right? You know, like,don't know the situation, that
you don't know what you'retalking about, and try to be
asked your way through it,because it will inevitably come
back to bite you and it, I mean,it almost always does. Yeah, I
was talking to a group ofcollege, you know, seniors
recently about first jobs andopportunities, and I told him,
yeah, I'm really envious of you,because you get to walk in and
you get to announce that youdon't know anything, and that

(39:13):
you get to be in a situationwhere I am a sponge. Teach me
what you'll teach me. And it wasreally interesting because
somebody said, Well, you know,they are hiring us. They expect
us to walk in with a certainlevel of confidence. And I'm
like, I'm a CEO of a company, Ican tell you right now, if you
walked in day one, I alreadyknow you don't know anything,
right? I mean, we you don't knowanything about my business

(39:33):
anyway. You might know about theindustry, you might know about
the vertical, but if you come intrying to sound smart or try to
be a little bit too assertivewith what your take on certain
things are. Until you've got thelay of the land, all you'll do
is alienate people, right? Andit's generally why people
struggle to keep the job comingout of college for that first

(39:55):
year, because sometimes we comea little bit more we've either
been ill advised or. We have ainflated perspective of what we
bring to the table, andsometimes just being quiet,
sometimes paying attention, orjust sometimes being willing to,
you know, raise your hand. Askthat question, like you said, I
think that's brilliant advice toto be able to say, look, I don't
understand it. Could you explainit to me? Will carry more weight

(40:19):
in terms of reputation, incareer growth than you could
possibly imagine.
I agree with that. I absolutelyagree with that. And it's, it's
funny, right? How new collegegrads, they think they know
everything. And I'm generallyspeaking, not that way. But I
would love to ask them, in 10years, like, how would you how
do you see yourself work out foryou? Right? How would it work

(40:40):
out for you. What would you givethat person? What advice would
you give them day one? Yeah, itwould be interesting to hear
what they what they offered
well. So for those that aregoing to see this on video or
listen to this on the podcast,they heard you say, you know,
like this. This happened 22years ago. To see you on the
video, I would think that youstarted your career like five.

(41:02):
So I just don't buy the wholeresume thing going on here. But
I mean, you definitely, you'rethe you're the kind of leader
that I think companies need.You're the kind of person that
gets it and understands it andrealizes that, like certain
approaches. You know, there'snot a one size fits all people.

(41:24):
I tell people this all the timewhen I talk, it's like, you
know, your common sense may bedifferent than my common sense,
and none of us, unfortunately,ever had anybody take us by the
hand when we get into our firstcouple of jobs and say, Come on,
kid, let me show you how to getalong with the other kids in the
sandbox. You figure it out byosmosis. And sadly, the osmosis
effect is by people that aredoing it really, really bad.

(41:46):
They're not contributing, youknow, contributing. They're not,
you know, taking someone undertheir wing to guide and mentor
and direct them. Or, you know,they often look, you know,
threatened at the new hire, orI'm going to keep that person in
their place. And the it's as Iwas explaining it to somebody
recently. It's like a lot ofcorporate environments is like,
it's the grown up version ofhigh school, like, who's in,

(42:08):
who's out, and, you know,organizations that don't have
someone like you that can seeacross those lanes and be able
to say, Look, I need thesepeople collaborating. I need
these people talking andlearning from one another. And I
actually need to eliminate thewhole authority and position
thing. It's like everybody herehas the ability to teach and has
the ability to learn. And if youbring people in with that

(42:30):
mindset and recognize that, youknow, this is the type type of
culture we're trying to create,you just get so much more value
out of that, right? But, youknow, I my common complaint with
especially kids that are comingout of college. I shouldn't say
kids, but young adults that arein their first or second, big
job is nobody taught them how todo what you and I are doing.
Right? You know, we're we're ona zoom. We've never met in

(42:53):
person. We got introduced bysomebody. But people are too
reserved. They don't know how tohave a conversation or dig into
really meaty conversation topicslike right away, but come at it
from the perspective of, well,what's in it for me, or that I'm
always the only person that hasthe right answer. It's like
being open and collaborative andand I wish companies would wake

(43:14):
up and figure that out, becauseI think you would find
productivity increasesignificantly faster. You would
find job satisfaction andemployee satisfaction go way,
way up. And I think at the endof the day, you're going to
create more opportunities.There'll be more innovation and
creativity, because people arenot afraid to speak their mind
or solicit collaboration, andthey don't care whether they're

(43:34):
the only one that gets thecredit for the idea. They're
like, Hey, me and Angela putthis thing together, and Angela
really brought some great ideasto this, and we think, you know,
senior leader, this is somethingthat we should be looking at,
maybe new direction, newstrategy, whatever. But they
just don't encourage that enoughwithout someone like you in that
position saying, Look, leaders,we gotta do this. And it needs
it's not a once a year when wedo our kumbaya summer picnic.

(43:57):
It's a every day every week kindof thing.
I to add to that. I was at aspring forum for the Strategic
Communications master's programat the University of Minnesota
last week, and this brilliantspeaker presented some findings
they do research every year withCEOs and with individual
contributors. And what do theyneed? What do they want? And he

(44:20):
pointed out the fact that we'renot we're no longer in this age
of authoritarian leadership.We've moved on from that,
generally speaking, obviously,there are some organizations who
still operate that way, yeah,but now what people want is
humanity. They wantadaptability. They want empathy.
They want highly communicative.And with this generation, this

(44:45):
this new generation that'scoming up, and they don't want
to wait for everything to besolved and then told what's what
they're going to do. They wantto be a part of the problem
solving. They want to be at thetable, contributing their ideas.
And if we can't change how we.Leadership thinks about those
people coming in and what theyhave to offer, we're missing out
on really tapping into what'sgoing to motivate them and

(45:07):
engage them, and we need tostart moving away from that. But
so many people in leadershipwere sort of brought up in that
that way and in that space, andso it's what's natural and
normal if we don't make adecision to rewire and choose a
different lens through which weview leadership and in our own
leadership skills. So I was justreminded of it's a big task for

(45:30):
us when we've got these newgrads coming in to really help
them set their foot in the rightdirection to be successful.
Because I feel like they, youknow, they're pretty clear on
how they want to operate, andcertainly there is some molding
and some shaping there thatneeds to occur. But I also think
we need to understand, how do weget the very best out of them,

(45:51):
and how do we back to, how do wecustomize our approach with them
so that we can really understandhow they're going to excel and
make a true impact for theorganization? Yeah, we're not
having those conversations.We're not figuring out that's a
miss, that's a loss on us. Yeah,and
by the time you end up havingthat conversation, it's probably
too late anyway, right? Becauseyou've either lost momentum or

(46:13):
you've lost the heart and mindof the individual, and by that
time, it's it's an uphill battleto even try to reverse that
trajectory. Sadly, thecounterpoint to that, or the
flip side to that, that youraise, I think, is also thinking
about people like my age thatwould go back into the workforce
or go into a company, and nowhaving an understanding of the

(46:37):
dynamics, because now you'relooking at a younger leadership
team. You're looking at adifferent generational shift
there in terms of the powers tobe. It's also equally important
to stay abreast of what's goingon there, and understanding how
you can come in and not becauseyou think you have age

(46:57):
experience or wisdom because ofyou know your career path. But I
see that a lot of times wherepeople are coming back into the
work environment and they'refailing to gel, and it's because
they're not really open to beingled by a younger generation, and
so they get closed off. They getthey're constantly I'm thinking
of one particular client, she'sjust really struggled to

(47:19):
maintain any forward momentum onher career, because she ends up
irritating the leadership team.Because, like, I know you guys
have done it this way, but thisis, I come from this experience,
I have this knowledge, and atthe end of the day, she was like
a high level executive, but nowshe's several layers down from
that, and still trying tooperate at that high level,

(47:39):
which is created conflict andchallenges. So I guess the
reason I bring that up is Ithink it's equally important for
people to think about it as theygo into these younger, different
generational managementhierarchies, to understand the
way that those things work aswell and figure out what you're
going to need to do to eithertamp down your enthusiasm to

(48:01):
share or say things maybe out ofturn, or tell people that
they're wrong or they're doingit, you know, incorrectly, and
maybe figure out how to go withthe flow a little bit more,
because the dynamics in theworkplace have shifted so
dramatically.
Yes, well, I think it goes backto my earlier point. EQ, yeah,
and on both parties, as well asthe ability to communicate

(48:23):
clearly, honestly, but withkindness. And I think that's
critical. I
love that. I love that for ouraudience that may not be
familiar with EQ, could you justexplain that really quickly from
your perspective? Yeah,
from my perspective, basicallyemotional intelligence is
understanding. How do I show upfor others, what makes me tick
personally, and then, how doesthat show up when I'm in

(48:47):
collaboration with others, whenI'm leading a team? How do I
listen? How do I communicate,and how do I morph the way that
I show up in order to meetpeople where they're at so that
together, we can be successful.So a long answer, but that's for
me, that's what it means.
But a brilliant answer. If, ifeverybody just listened to that,

(49:08):
go back. Pause. Go back 30seconds. Listen to those
questions that Angela just putout there. These become
phenomenal question points foryou to have that inner dialog
with yourself, and if you'retruly honest about what the
answers are and where you needto adjust, slow down, speed up,
adapt to the environment you'rein. There's so much that can be

(49:31):
gained there. And what I likeabout that is you sort of gave
everybody the blueprint to sortof do the self evaluation
themselves, but you still need acoach or someone with expertise
like yourself to really say,okay, you know this is your
tendency when there's like a lotof stress, or projects are
delayed, or there's frustrationamongst the team. You know, your

(49:51):
tendency is to, you know,either, you know, try and rule
with an iron fist or just getout of my way. I'm going to fix
it having a clear understandingof how. Your natural reactions
are to certain situations likethat before they occur. Give you
the guideposts for which tomaybe not make those mistakes,
especially with a new team. Yes,
and I think those are skillsthat we build. And this is what

(50:13):
I love about EQ, and this iswhat I love about talent
development. You're buildingskills professionally, but
you're also building skillspersonally, and so it's
impacting who I am as a whole,and wherever I show up. And to
me, what a gift that we canoffer employees, but also for
employees who take advantage toreally show up, for people in a
different way that's moremeaningful, more rich, and build

(50:36):
stronger levels of connectionand relationship. And for me,
that is what makes the worldtick. Is that true connection?
Well, I Jennifer knew what shewas doing by connecting us,
because we are going to be fastfriends. You're stuck with me.
So sorry. But it, it I you and Icould talk about this stuff for,

(50:57):
you know, hours. I I'm so inlove with this topic and this
approach and and quite honestly,quite passionate about it.
Because I think companies,number one, the role that you're
playing, should be the last onethat they ever think about
laying off, like when things youknow, take a downturn. But most
importantly, as you're beginningto scale on operation, it's one
of the first hires that you needto make, because you are the

(51:20):
guiding light for which thesuccess of the organization
really depends on. And so verylucky, I think, you know, the
organizations that you've workedwith, and you know we'll work
with in the future, I think arevery lucky to have someone like
you. Thank you. I I always liketo shift gears a little bit,
just kind of keep it light. Butwhat we always do is we always

(51:40):
like to ask a couple of rippleconnection questions, and so
yeah, know what those are? Yeah,the questions are just fun to
ask. They're fun to answer,hopefully, and they give a
little bit more insight as towho you are. We've been talking
about a lot of the work orientedstuff, but I want to get a gage
of who Angela is like outside ofthat part of her personality. So

(52:01):
are you game for a fewquestions? Sure, awesome. What
did the seven year old versionof Angela want to be when she
grew
up? And I won't be an ice
skater? No kidding. Well,Minnesota, that Yeah, makes
sense.
Dorothy Hamill, I just thoughtshe racked the world. Oh yes,

(52:21):
that was one of my firstcrushes.
I had her haircut even, yeah.Oh, no kidding. Do you do? You
still ice skate? This is
the thing. I've never iceskated. So where that came from?
I have no idea.
Oh, that that might be one ofthe best answers ever. Like, I
want to be a professional iceskater. I'm not taking any

(52:42):
lessons to do it. I fall everytime I hack the haircut. I still
don't do it.
I I sort of, I know many peoplefrom Minnesota. I thought you
guys came out of the womb withice skates. I mean, yeah, yeah.
Or snow plow, one to the two,yep. So you grew up in
Minnesota. What's kept you inMinnesota all these years? My

(53:05):
family? Yeah, I went to schoolin Ohio. I got my undergraduate
in Ohio.
Which University in Ohio? I wentto a very small
private school called CedarvilleUniversity. Okay, so about 2700
students at the time. Thatsounds like heaven. It was. It

(53:25):
was a great experience. I wouldnever change that college
experience, but I wanted to comeback to Minnesota because
family,
yeah, that's great. Who do yougive credit for for helping you
become who you are today? Idon't know that
I could pinpoint one person,right? I think I've had a lot of
really great role models andinfluencers, yeah, that I've and

(53:50):
I think who I'm becoming today,hopefully is different than who
I am tomorrow, because my mybelief is about this life is a
journey, and there isn't adestination. And I feel like
each and every day is a day togrow and learn and do something,
be something different, besomeone different. And so when I
think about sort of thefoundation of it, where it

(54:10):
started, I would say my mom hada lot of influence on me. She
you did not mess with thatwoman. She was born and raised
in the south, and came from ahuge family and sort of a
militant approach to life, butthat she was, she showed up with
so much love and alwaysencouraged me, and always had me

(54:33):
convinced that I could dowhatever I wanted to do and
whatever I put my mind to.
Oh, I love that. I love that isshe still with us.
She is she has Alzheimer's, soshe is here physically, but not
mentally.
But my mom suffered with it for10 years, so I feel the pain for

(54:54):
you. Yeah, it's the worst, it'sthe worst disease, but it's
terrible. Yeah, I did hear areally positive take on on the
disease when we were dealingwith it with my mom, is that,
you know, we're the ones thatsuffer, but every day is a new
day to them, and even if they'velost that connection to who you

(55:16):
are, they're meeting a newfriend for the first time. They
make new friends every day,yeah, yeah. So if there has to
be a positive out of the, youknow, the challenge of that
disease, that kind of does resetthat, right? Yes. So I know
that's tough, but Well, maybeyou can show her this interview
and say, Hey, you gave her somereal, you know, positive kudos

(55:37):
for how she made an impact onyour life. For sure. I think
that's awesome. When you thinkabout your career path now, and
you've done a number of thingsif you weren't doing what you're
doing now, what do you thinkyou'd like to do
if the world was my oyster? Iwould volunteer at a NICU

(56:00):
hospital and with babies and theother part, I would be working
with animals in helpingorganizations do good things for
dogs and cats and helping themfind homes and be healthy and
feel safe and secure. Oh, I
love that. I love that thosegreat answers for sure, when you

(56:24):
think about your superpower,what is that superpower, hidden
genius that you have that, andI'm going to throw a twist here,
that you don't often get to usein the corporate environments
that you've been involved in,
cheapers, the twist I would saythat I was going to say

(56:46):
listening, because that is whatI hear a lot, is that I'm an
amazing listener. And duringCOVID, which, by the way,
started in 2020 I was thinkingabout that after I was told that
I was the glue that kept theteam together, and that I was
the person that everyone came toif they wanted to feel better
and feel grounded and feel lessnervous and uptight. So I think

(57:11):
I bring sort of this, I don'tknow, this grounding energy, and
people can just sort of take adeep breath and relax and feel
like everything's going to beokay. Yeah,
I I could see that, you know,obviously, this is the first
time we've gotten on a zoom, butyou have, like, a you have this
aura and energy about you thatis super calming and, like,

(57:33):
super supportive. I could seewhy you're perfect for the roles
that you've done, but at the endof the day, I can also see why
people will work their asses offto make you happy because you
set the bar high. But at the endof the day, you're also like,
Hey, I'm going to kick you inthe butt to go do what you need
to do, but I'm there to supportyou along the way. And I can see

(57:55):
that from you, you get certainvibes from different people. And
I could, I mean, from the momentyou started speaking, I could
tell that you have that that's agift, that's a true, true gift,
and people are lucky to bearound it, for sure. I
gifts are so fun to talk about,too, because they're not
something that we sit around andpontificate, right? And so when

(58:16):
we can kind of land on what itis, it's, it's affirming and
kind of fun.
Yeah, absolutely. If you weregiving, given your experience
knowing the corporate landscapeas it is today, small size
companies, large size companiesdoesn't really matter. If you
had someone that was before youand they were like, Angela,

(58:36):
What's the best advice you couldgive me as I'm starting my
career? What would you givethem?
I would say that it's puttingyourself out there and being
willing to try new and differentthings. Ask questions. Back to
that being realmable. Be willingto say when you don't know
something, and raising yourhand. I think that that's really

(58:59):
important. And I think when yousee something that needs to be
done, and I know you said onething, I think the way that we
make an impact is raising ourhand to do something, even if
it's not part of our job. Andwhen you can see that, you can
name it, and you can say, hey,I'm going to help with this, I
think that that is a great wayto operate when in any part of
your career, but it's a greatskill to build when you start

(59:21):
your career.
Yeah, I love that you said that,because one of the things that I
often tell audiences I get theopportunity to train or speak
for is that when you're theresource on the team, you're
generally the last person to beput on a list, when people know
that you are the person thatwill go out of their way to
check on people or take on theproject nobody else wants. Or

(59:42):
you stay late, you work, youknow, you come in early, you
work just a little bit harder, alittle bit smarter than most
people, but you kind of knowwhere all the bodies are buried.
You've got your ear to theground, and you know what's
happening, where it's happening.And kind of like we talked, you
know, about when you have adiverse network, right? You
know, and you've got. People outthere. You may not always have
the answers, but your chancesare you've built relationships

(01:00:05):
with some that can help youarrive at those answers. You
become so invaluable to anorganization. And I, I find like
especially younger people, theydon't they don't recognize how
important that is right now, andreally how vocal you need to be
about being that resource like Iwant to learn more things. I may
have a job responsibility, but Iwould love to learn about a

(01:00:26):
different division in thebusiness, or I would like to
know, you know, where we go asan organization from a strategic
perspective, and whatcontributions could I
potentially make if you don'task these questions or don't get
engaged in these conversations,you'll never know, and you
likely will never differentiateyourself quite as well as you
could.
Yeah, I agree with that, and Ithink things have changed since

(01:00:47):
when I entered the work marketin that I was often just tapped
on the shoulder. Hey, do youwant to do this? Do you want to
do this? How about this? You'dbe good at this. And so I think
something else I would say isthat you need to have some
clarity around what inspires youand what drains you, even when
you're just starting, because Ithink that you can easily get
sort of brought along by theshoulder into different roles

(01:01:09):
that actually might not be a fitfor what you want to do. The
willingness to move is great.But also have some be clear on
what is it that you really wantto apply your skill and your
your your experience to and helpthat and then ask for what you
need in that space to do thosethings. So I think it's a sort
of a blended approach, but Ithink that it's not an easy it's

(01:01:32):
not an easy market to navigatefor people just coming into it.
I think that it's a totallydifferent world. And I don't, I
wouldn't want to be coming innow, frankly, I mean, it was, it
seemingly has different and morechallenging situations than when
I started. Probably not, maybe,I don't know, but I just think
that there's a lot of differentthings coming at the young grads

(01:01:55):
that are moving into into theirfirst roles. Yeah,
and it's, you know, sadly, it'slike drinking from a fire hose
in a lot of environments, butyou still have to make time to
really, you know, ask yourselfthose deeper questions, and if
you don't have a resource, youknow that the company's provided
to you, like someone likeAngela, the big thing is, go

(01:02:16):
find someone, find a careerCoach, find a mentor, find
someone who can help guide youalong the way. Because the
reality is, you know, even withour experience and our work
history, we don't have all theanswers. We don't know
everything, and you know, we'restill trying to figure it out on
the day to day as well. And sohaving someone there that's in

(01:02:37):
your corner, I think, is such aninvaluable tool and resource.
And I, I know that the youngergeneration that's coming into
the workforce today doesn't knowabout coaching or why there's
value. I mean, even from mygeneration, there was a stigma
to it, right? You know, therewas a stigma to having a coach.
Like, why would you need that?Like, you don't you're we hired
you because you're supposed toknow all the answers. But the

(01:02:59):
reality is, nobody ever doeshave the answers, and even if
you have an answer doesn't meanit's the right answer. So having
someone that you can rely on togive feedback, guidance,
direction, help bring you youknow, kind of pick you up when
things aren't going so well,dust you off, put you back in
the game, but also someone thatwill be there to celebrate your
successes as you advance,because if you do it well,
you'll advance pretty quickly.Because companies need that

(01:03:22):
level of talent, and certainlylooking for that on a on the
daily,
I agree. I agree. And it's greatto have someone in your corner
who, when something, a newopportunity comes up, they think
of
you, oh, yeah,
right. But I think that there'sa there's different roles
between coach and mentor andeven sponsor, and I think having
sort of someone in your cornerfor each of those is really

(01:03:42):
critical. Yep, I love that. Whatis the best thing you could hear
a colleague or, you know, youknow, a client or or or just a,
you know, a close personalconnection say about you
that I impacted them in a waythat positively changed their
life, that they walked away froma conversation or a situation

(01:04:09):
feeling seen and heard andvalued. I
love that. I love that a lot.Last three questions, if you had
to tell someone how to best takemaybe not so positive, maybe
negative feedback or criticism.What's the best thing they can

(01:04:31):
do with that gift that somebodygives them? They may not feel it
as a gift in the moment, but youknow what? What's your take on?
How do you take it? How do you Imean, you're you said one of
your skills is listening andinterpreting. How do you take
what you're listening andhearing and interpreting and
then apply it to your benefit,even if it stings a little bit?
I think that one thing thatcomes up for me is to be

(01:04:52):
reminded that it's about mybehavior, not about who I am as
a person. That's great and. Is,and maybe even do a little
asking a few other people, doyou see this happening as well?
And so that you can get a littlebit more of a broader group,
sort of green. And then theother thing I would say is, you

(01:05:18):
can take it or you can leave it.It's up to you. You know, it's
up to you what you want to dowith it. But I think that if you
can get honest and really say,Is this something I do then, or
this is how I showed up, orwhatever the feedback is, you
know, you can make a decisionwhat you do with

(01:05:40):
it. It you just made me think ofand this will date me a little
bit, but years and years ago,there was a professor, Randy
posh, posh, I think he wrote abook about his experience living
with cancer, which wasultimately going to be terminal,
right? So he knew it had a youngfamily, and wanted to leave his
mark, not only on his kids, butultimately on the students that

(01:06:03):
had gone through his class orwere in the pro had been in his
class, but he wanted to leavesome lasting words of wisdom.
And I remember one of thestories he was talking about he
might have been like, you know,seventh or eighth grade, and he
was on the football team, andone of the assistant coaches, he
had had a particularly badpractice, and the coach was
really hard on him. The headcoach was just yelling at him,
and his feelings were hurt, likehe was really upset, right? And

(01:06:26):
he's walking off, and he's kindof crying, and assistant coach
walks over and says, Well, coachwas on you pretty hard. He's
like, Yeah, I just couldn't doanything, right? And he said,
you know, you're lucky. And hesaid, it's when they stop giving
you feedback that you reallyhave to worry. And he said he
always learned that, and helearned it from that point
forward, that, you know, I haveto seek out feedback, even if

(01:06:48):
it's not the best, positivefeedback where I need to improve
what I need to do. But themoment people stop talking to
you and stop sharing is themoment you really gotta worry.
And I have thought about thatlesson so many times over the
course of my career, or inconversations with people that
I'm coaching through careertransition or they're struggling
to get to the next level. And Ialways ask people like, how

(01:07:12):
often are you asking for thefeedback? What are you when you
know? Are you waiting until thereview? Are you asking for time
with your superior, your boss orwhoever in between those
moments. And you know it's truefor people that you know that
are assigned to lead you. That'simportant, but also your coaches
and your confidants and yourclose friends having those

(01:07:33):
conversations in hearing thefeedback can be such an
invaluable commodity, and it'sin if used correctly, there's an
ROI to it every single time,
absolutely. And I think you'respot on with ask for feedback.
Don't sit in angst waiting tohear it right. Go after it. Go
for it. And you really want toimprove. That's one way to do

(01:07:55):
it. And I think about in neuroLeadership Institute, the
science behind feedback is thatwhen someone comes at us with
feedback, our brain shut down.Just happens, and so a way to
avoid that is to proactively,consistently ask for feedback
from a variety of sources sothat you are not shutting down
when you hear it.

(01:08:16):
Yeah, you're not immune to it,or your defense mechanisms,
where you close off your ears toeven hear the words once you get
practiced at it, then not onlyare you good at receiving it,
but then you don't take it aspersonal, right? You know that
it's coming from a place ofgenuine interest in who you are,
and kind of going back to thatassistant coach, if they stop
talking to you, then, you know,or stop giving you feedback or

(01:08:37):
yelling at you, then you mightwant to worry.
I've not heard that. So thatstory, in that way, it's really
powerful.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's one of myfavorites, and I it has informed
me a lot of times, because Idon't like getting feedback. I
don't like getting negativefeedback. No one does there.
None of us do. But at the end ofthe day, it's the negative

(01:08:59):
feedback that actually stickswith you, that actually makes
you better, sharper, morecapable the next time out. So I
just think it's so important.Well, like I said, I could talk
to you for forever. I am sograteful for this emerging
friendship. And like I said,you're stuck with me. But my
last two questions, yeah,because when you hear the words,
the ripple effect, what doesthat conjure up for you? What

(01:09:21):
does it bring to mind? Well, one
thing is it brings up to mindfor me is that we all have a
responsibility for how we showup, and because we have no clue
who we are impacting and who weare trickling down to, either
negatively or positively, and soI think it's a responsibility to

(01:09:42):
be showing up for others in thevery best way that we can, and
because we know that there'sgoing to be a downfall of
whatever that might be. And sothat's to me, is what comes up
that's not a very eloquentlystated. Way. But I just was,
yeah, no, it's very good. We

(01:10:03):
don't know who we're going toimpact, either directly or
indirectly. And to me, that sortof that ripple effect, how I
show up for my daughter impactshow she shows up for her friends
at school and how she shows upfor the teachers and vice versa.
I love that. Now I think it wasvery eloquently put in a really,
good definition. So my finalquestion is, what ripples could
I be looking to create for you?

(01:10:26):
Oh, wow, I think keep doing thework that you're doing with this
podcast. I've listened to a fewof your episodes, and I think
they're really just enlighteningand full of fabulous information
and nuggets to kind of grab,grab onto. So I would say, keep
doing that beautiful work withthat that, to me, creates,
creating massive ripple effectsand impacting me as I continue

(01:10:50):
to listen to what you've put out
there. Well, I appreciate thatvery much. Well, I will continue
to do my best have brilliant,amazing people like yourself on
the show. So it makes it reallyeasy. I always feel like I rob
the bank, because I get so muchgreat information from these
amazing subject matter expertslike yourself, that that I can
immediately put into practice,not only for myself, but for the

(01:11:12):
clients I serve. But I'm super,super appreciative of the fact
Jennifer connected us, and shewas right. She knew we would
like, we would gel, and we wouldconnect in a big, big way. And
so I'm so grateful that youspent the time and were able to,
you know, come on the showtoday.
Thank you for having me. Steve.I wasn't sure what to expect,
but this was a super funconversation, and I agree. I

(01:11:34):
feel like we just sort ofscratched the surface.
Oh yeah, we're definitely, we'rehaving more conversations, for
sure, if someone wanted to learnmore about your work or maybe
reach out to you on somethingthat they heard, what's the best
way for them to do that? And ifyou don't want that, no problem.
Well, you know, we can cut thisout, but you know, I just want
to give you that opportunity
LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn isthe best way to get a hold me.

(01:11:56):
I'm I'm, uh, low key on thesocials right now, and so I
think that that's where I'mshowing up the most. And so
that's the most, easiest way Iwould offer. Okay, yeah,
and we'll, we'll put a link toyour LinkedIn and make sure that
everybody knows to find that.Guys, we will be back again with
another episode of the rippleeffect podcast. But until then,

(01:12:17):
Angela, thanks for being here.And as always, ripple on.
Thank you, Steve, this
has been a blast. Thank you.You.