May 10, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode, Jenn and I are thrilled to welcome William Parker! A longtime educator from Oklahoma who transitioned into full-time consulting, speaking, and writing, Will is the author of "Messaging Matters" and his new book, "Whose Permission Are You Waiting For?: An Educator's Guide to Doing What You Love"
Will shares how his new book, born from coaching conversations with high-achieving leaders at crossroads, is designed to help educators think through career options, get out of ruts, and reconnect with their joy.
We dive into key concepts from the book, including:
• Avoiding the Binary: Why you don't always have just two options and how to explore multiple pathways.
• The Power of Curiosity and Inquiry: How asking questions and reaching out to experts leads to discovery.
• Idea to Action: Moving from thinking to doing with intentionality and achievable goals.
• Goal Setting and Reflection: The importance of looking back to learn and setting goals for the future across all parts of your life.
• Whose Permission Are You Waiting For?: Identifying yourself as your biggest obstacle and realizing you often only need your own permission to take the next step towards what you want.
• Figuring Out What You Want: Practical exercises like the 'Doing, Not Doing, Want to Do, Don't Want to Do' framework.
Join us to explore how to give yourself permission to dream, inquire, and rediscover the joy of learning in your career.
Also, don't forget to tune in to William's podcast, Principal Matters. It’s packed with practical tips and inspiration for school leaders.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jenn David-Lang (00:05):
Hello and welcome to The School Leadership Show.
I am here with my veryenergetic co-host, Mike Doughty.
Hi Mike.
Dr. Mike Doughty (00:12):
Hi Jenn.
Jenn David-Lang (00:14):
And, um, we are, we have a very special guest today who
already, Mike has threatened to, uh,take over the conversation and make it
all about him and his career trajectory.
But you'll, you'll getthat in just a moment.
Um, today we have Will Parker joining us.
Um, I actually first heard of Will Parkermany years ago when I was researching
like the top 10 education leadershippodcasts for subscribers of the main Idea.
(00:39):
And I found his podcast PrincipalMatters and listen to it.
And it's an excellent mixof both practical advice and
inspiration for school leaders.
So listen to his podcast.
Um, and then I learned more about him.
Will has been a long time educatorin Oklahoma since 1993, starting
as a teacher then a. School leader.
(00:59):
Then eventually he ran the entireOklahoma Association of Secondary School
Principals, as well as the OklahomaMiddle Level Education Association.
And now I think about two years will.
He is been full-time, um,everything consultant, he
speaks, he coaches, leaders, heteaches leaders, he writes books.
(01:20):
He, uh, runs masterminds like I do.
Um, all in the name of serving leaders.
So I summarized his earlier book MessagingMatters and now he has a new book and
I also just got to meet Will in personat a wonderful SAM conference where we
were both presenting and it was great.
And um, it's just wonderful to have youhere to join Mike and me on the show.
(01:42):
So welcome Will.
Will Parker (01:44):
Oh my gosh, it's so great to be with the two of you.
I admire your both of your works and thankyou for bringing me on the podcast and
we were just celebrating off the air the.
The New York Power that's inthis room with the two of you.
And I have had a chance to workwith S'S a little bit this year,
doing some virtual work with them.
The possibility of mecoming up there in the fall.
(02:04):
So, uh, so we'll, we'll see ifI'm, if I'm in your neck of the
woods, I'll let you guys know.
Dr. Mike Doughty (02:09):
I love it.
And for people who don't know,S'S is the School Administrators
Association of New York State.
So if, uh, you're a schooladministrator in New York, you
definitely know what S'S is.
So cool.
You're doing some work with them.
Well, they're, they're a great group.
Will Parker (02:24):
They are, it's a privilege.
Jenn David-Lang (02:27):
Come join us.
We'd love to see you in person.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so you have a new bookout and it's called Whose
Permission Are You Waiting For?
An Educator's Guide toDoing What You Love.
Mm-hmm.
And when I first picked it up, Iwasn't sure exactly what it was
going to be about, but it turns outthat it is a great book to help you
think through career options or evenjust get yourself out of a rut and
(02:51):
reconnect to your joy as an educator.
So I was expecting a whole bunch ofcareer advice in this book, but one
of the things that I got out of thisbook Will, is that you are just like
a shining role model of a person.
You're a lovely human being.
There are all these fantastic anecdotesabout your daughter, your wife, about
going sailing, and you just, you seemso grounded and reflective that I think
(03:14):
that anybody should read this book.
Just to learn a little bit more about you.
What Mike, you're putting in your head.
Wait,
Dr. Mike Doughty (03:19):
wait.
Hang on a second.
I got, now you gotta go to this one.
Where does one sail in Oklahoma?
Will Parker (03:25):
Well, Mike, uh, I have a really good friend who has a sailboat,
um, off the coast of Maryland.
And so in that chapter, um, I getto, to tell that story, but I, I
love to travel, so you're gonna findin that book all kinds of stories
about times on farms and sailing andhiking, the coastal path in Wales.
And so, uh, travel's a,a big part of my love.
Jenn David-Lang (03:48):
And a, and a good reminder how important it's to be
balanced and have something other thanschool and leadership work in your life.
So that, that's great.
But yeah, so this is a different bookthan one that I would normally summarize.
We would talk about whereyou're really, um, you know.
Some guidance to people who maywanna, you know, shift a little
bit in their education career.
(04:09):
So can you tell a little bit about like,why did you write this book and what
you hope people will get out of it?
Will Parker (04:14):
Jenn, thank you for your, like, such a, you're so generous.
But, um, so let's rewind like,I don't know, 25 years ago and.
My entire career as an educator,teaching administration, and even
the work I do now, I, I always feellike I'm prepping for something else.
Like I'm loving what I do, but I'm alwaysthinking about, you know, well five
(04:36):
years from now or 10 years from now.
And if you could have gone back 25 yearsago, um, I was looking for this book.
Uh, you know, I was, I was, Ifound myself constantly thinking
about, well, what is next?
Or what is the, what's thispathway and this journey look like?
So I would find books oncareers or self-help or business
entrepreneurship or, you know, name it.
There's all kinds of stuff out there.
(04:57):
But when I finally stepped into this work,full time consulting two years ago, um.
I was coaching a lot of, and I stillam coaching a lot of leaders and, and
I'm just gonna say when I say highachieving leaders, people that reach
out to me because they're, they'realready at the top of their field
and they really want to get better.
(05:18):
And the crazy thing is that inthose conversations, I find myself
answering a lot of the same questions,even from high performing leaders.
And not always, but it seems likeinevitably I get to the place
with someone too, where they'reat a crossroads and they're trying
to decide in their own career.
Or in their own life, um, that next thing.
Um, and, but then sometimes it's justa crossroads in their leadership.
(05:41):
Like there's something thatneeds to change and they need
to kind of know which way to go.
I. And so I just found myself kindof in these circles of conversations
over and over and over again, andall of my previous books have been a
result of when I find myself sayingthe same thing over and over again
and I haven't already written a bookabout it, it's time to write that book.
And so this book was really bornfrom the coaching, it was born from.
(06:04):
These are those crucial conversationsI keep having over and over again.
So.
Gosh, more than three years ago, Iguess I, when I first stepped into
the work and was doing it full time,I, I just sat down one day and just
started brain dumping what are themajor themes I keep touching on?
And I came up with 20 of them, uh, whichbecame the, the content for this book.
And so it was the labor oflove to try to write and.
(06:24):
Coach and all the other thingsI'm doing at the same time.
'cause I also do a podcast like you guys.
Um, but it's, uh, that's what was, that'swhere it was born from Jenn, because so
many of the lessons I've learned throughmy own path and journey, I'm able now to
go, you know, looking back now I can, thisis a gift I hope to younger educators,
but also to my peers because, uh, they'rethings that are, that are still helping
(06:47):
me, um, in my own decision making.
Jenn David-Lang (06:50):
I think it's really timely.
'cause I think a lot of us are hearingabout educators who, who wanted to shift
a little something in their careers.
And also, you know, it can be toughin our field in particular to stay
in education for the long haul.
'cause we don't seem to havethat same career ladder that a
lot of other professions have.
Like you might enter as a middleschool teacher and 40 years later
(07:10):
you're a middle school teacher.
Right?
Yeah.
Maybe you'll be a department chair, right?
Um, or, and even if you dodecide to become an assistant
principal or principal, it's,it's really a different job.
It's not necessarily, you know, movingup in, uh, in the same type of ladder.
So, you know, you have a chapter on.
Avoiding the binary and how educatorscan open up ideas for themselves, um,
(07:37):
when there's not always a clear path.
So what do you say to that, you know,principal who's been in the position
for 40 years and doesn't really see soclearly the next step, it's like, either
I'm a superintendent or I'm retired,you know, or So what, explain a little
bit more about avoiding the binary.
Will Parker (07:53):
Yeah, well, avoiding the binary for me and, and pathway thinking.
They go, they're companions.
So there's probably two chapters thatI cover on those, but, um, this has
just been a really helpful idea tokeep in mind that so often when we're
facing a really difficult decision, andI'm, and I'm thinking back to my own
(08:14):
years, even as a young administrator,um, a lot of times you're expecting.
Things to be very black andwhite, which we know they're not.
Or we're expecting that we canmake a choice between two really
good options, but sometimes it'sa good option and a bad option.
But what I've discovered withleaders is a lot of times you've
got decisions between sometimes,which is the best option, and but.
(08:38):
I don't even know where, wherethis thinking began for me.
There was a really good bookby Dave Evans and Bill Burnett
called Designing Your Life.
And I mentioned thisin in the book as well.
And they were design engineeringprofessors at Stanford
University who while workingwith really talented students, I.
Ran into the same things with thesehigh achieving kids that we run into
with everybody we know, which isthey were getting degrees in design,
(09:01):
engineering and still wonderingwhat am I supposed to do next?
And so their professors, um,Evans and and Burnett decided
to create an elective course forstudents on designing your life.
And so they use the samedesign engineering ideas.
For helping them to think aboutmultiple pathway options in front
(09:22):
of you that you could beta test.
In order to identify potentialgoals, look at possible solutions.
Talk to people who may be expertsin those potential pathways and
look for open doors within them.
And the key is not to think aboutone or two potential pathways.
The key is to think of three orfour, is to give yourself the i, the
(09:44):
the permission to begin to navigatelooking at more than just the binary.
This is not a decisionbetween this and this.
Let's look at the decisionbetween A, B, or C or even D.
Uh.
What the reason that book resonatedwith me is because when I, um, came
across that idea and I first found themonline, and then I bought the book, I
looked across the offices of my wall,the walls of my office, excuse me.
(10:08):
And I laughed becauseI was doing it already.
I had all these huge post-its whereI had different pathways up in front
of me, or I was exploring differentthings that I was working on and
and doing, and I would iterate them.
Um.
So the idea of avoiding the binaryis recognizing that most of the time
when you have a decision in front ofyou, a lot of times it's not between
(10:29):
A and B, or maybe it is only becauseyou've put that limit in your mind.
And so there's something reallyeye-opening when you start asking yourself
the question, is there a potential C orD here that I'm not even thinking about?
And uh, so in careers, a lot oftimes that question could be okay.
What's the potential pathway thatyou're on right now that could lead
(10:50):
to something else you may enjoy doing?
Um, right where you are,you don't even have to move.
Uh, maybe it's a promotion.
Maybe it's just a, an, an increasingof something you enjoy doing.
There B would be.
What's something really logical that couldbe a shift that's not too far from where
I'm at, but could be a logical next thing.
C could be something like, what if Ihad to completely change directions?
(11:12):
I'm going, but maybe it's connectedto my skills, my gift sets, uh,
the things that I'd love to do.
Uh, and, but my favorite one is to askthe question, what if you could create
a pathway for yourself where, um, fearof failure, um, was off the table?
What would you do then?
Boy, you talk about expanding your mind,and so really what you're doing when you
(11:35):
avoid the binary and you give yourselfpermission to think in terms of pathways
is you're, you're, you're giving yourselfthe permission to do what you did as kids
to create playgrounds for the potentialsthat are in front of you, and then begin
to explore them systematically until youfind the openings and the possibilities.
That usually are just waiting for you tofind them once you start down those paths.
(11:57):
So it's not magic.
I'm not trying to, you know, this isnot a book that's trying to give people
some formula for decision making orcareer projections, but, but I, what
I've tried to do is just, um, teachthe things that have helped me in my
own journey and I've seen help others.
Dr. Mike Doughty (12:14):
So it's, it's interesting that you say that because I
think we almost as educators need thatkind of framework because if you've been
an educator for your entire career, andI, and I have this conversation with
people all the time, like I, I don'tknow what somebody who works in business
does, because I've never done anythingother than basically be in school.
Will Parker (12:38):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Mike Doughty (12:38):
So, you know, how do you get people to.
To broaden their perspective.
I mean, I think every time I go visita career in tech ed class, I talk to
the kids and I'm like, you know what?
You'll never want for work.
You can cut hair or you cancook, or you can fix a car.
I lose my job.
I have no discernible skills.
(12:59):
So how, how do you get people tosee that what they're doing has the
potential to be, you know, desirablein other fields or, or maybe within
education, but in different ways?
Will Parker (13:14):
Well, I think a part of that is remaining curious.
Um, I have this little equation that,that I call, you know, inquiry plus
curiosity plus inquiry equals discovery.
Um, and so, um, who was it?
I I, I'm not gonna quote this personcorrectly 'cause I'm, it's, this just
came to my mind, but I can't rememberwho said it, so I'm gonna, but I
(13:34):
heard someone once say, I think itwas a, like a musician who once said
that, um, you know, creative people.
Are the creative adults are the oneswho survive childhood, you know?
So because we beat creativity out ofkids, you know, and so by the time they
get to a certain age, they quit askingquestions, they quit dreaming, they
quit being so in, you know, curious.
(13:55):
And I don't know why I am not gonna blameit on education or you know, the system
or whatever, but I'll just say that, um.
All of us are born with thislike insatiable curiosity.
So why do we not get to keepdoing that as, as as we grow?
And so, Mike, when I think aboutlike potentials, um, you don't
have to even travel now to,to explore your curiosities.
(14:19):
And so I'll give you a couple of examples.
One, um, when I was an assistant per,no, when I was a teacher and I was
getting my master's degree to become aschool admin, I, I was taking a class,
a course in, um, probably on, you know.
Capital management orschool funding or something.
And, but I had never doneanything but teaching.
So, you know, so trying to study schoolfunding was just so, like, it was a, it
(14:42):
was a tough thing for me to, to take in.
So one day I was on my planning period atschool and I just had this little thought.
I was like, you know, whatdo they do at payroll?
What do they do at the central office?
Said, you know what I did?
I went to central officeon my planning period.
I didn't even, I didn't even call.
I just walked in and said, is,is, would it be okay for me
to talk somebody in payroll?
And they were like, okay.
(15:03):
So they got me back to payroll and Iwent back there and she probably thought
I was upset with my check or something.
And I was just like,
Dr. Mike Doughty (15:09):
because nobody's showing up to tell those folks.
They're doing a great job.
Yeah.
So I was just
Will Parker (15:12):
like, I was just like, Hey, I'm just curious.
How do you do payroll?
And she was like, like, really?
And I was like, yeah.
And she was like, have a seat.
And so she starts pulling out allher stuff and it was the first
time I had ever sat and watchedwhat someone did to pay me.
And so, so Mike, I'm just like, somaybe it's just will, but I think that.
(15:33):
I didn't get in trouble forbeing curious, and I certainly
learned a lot from being curious.
And then later when I'm doing the workof other people getting paid well,
that, that I'm managing, I had a bettersense of what's going on down there.
And so that's just one example.
And another example is when I startedpodcasting, um, I was already writing
a blog like 12 years ago and then,but I started listening to podcasts
(15:55):
and I was like, man, these are so fun.
How do you do that?
And so I went online and started.
Watching, like I, pat Flynnhad a, had a six part How do
you podcast series on YouTube.
And I watched it.
And over Christmas break I sat downand I took notes and I followed it
step by step by step by step by step.
(16:16):
And I published my first podcast justas afraid as everything in the world
that someone would hear it and judge me.
But that curiosity just led me to let's gofigure it out and, and let's find it out.
So, um.
I probably am like that reallyannoying person though at like.
Um, people's parties too, because I alwaystry to find the person who does something
(16:38):
I don't know how to do, and, and I justliked, I wanna find out what it takes.
So, um, but I, I would just, I justdon't wanna invite listeners to think
about, um, giving yourself permissionto pursue, pursue the curiosity because
there's nothing people enjoy more.
Then when you call them and askthem, how do you do what you do?
(16:59):
People love to talk about what they do.
So in the book by Bernard and, andEvans, and I'm probably gonna talk
more about their book than mine, um,they encourage people to, um, when you
are identifying potential pathways andyou're in, you're trying to create.
Some, um, ideas of what to do next.
Identify experts within the fieldsthat you're most interested in, and
just find out how to message themand ask them, could I sit in a room
(17:23):
with you for 30 minutes or could wehave a coffee or could we do a zoom?
And just ask them those questions.
Can you tell me what you do and whatyou've learned from what you do?
And people love to answer those questions.
I,
Jenn David-Lang (17:33):
I wanna build on that.
And it's absolutely not because you'reannoying that you are curious and ask all
these questions, but, you know, I think,I think Mike is right, not just about
adults, but, but young, you know, but, butolder kids too, that you don't choose a
career path by sitting in your room and,you know, diving into the recesses of your
mind and imagining, you know, oh, I knowwhat an investment bank I'm gonna imagine.
(17:55):
Do I wanna be an investment banker?
I think it.
Yes, by what you're describing, beingcurious and reaching out to experts or
watching YouTube videos at this point.
But you know, you also described sort ofa very methodical, like, get your feet
wet and you describe some actual actions.
Get out, don't justsit there in your room.
But you talk about highlighting,shadowing, volunteering.
(18:17):
Can you share some of these, um, ideas sothat people, while they have their, their
full-time jobs and their benefits andeverything, what else can they be doing?
Um, in addition toreaching out to experts?
Will Parker (18:29):
Well, this, to me, this is the difference between idea and
action, and that's intentionality.
So if you, if you're curious aboutsomething and you really wanna
see it move from your curiosity toI. The potential for momentum to
be built, you gotta do something.
And so, um, for me, most of the timewhen I'm trying to, and when I'm coaching
(18:50):
others that wanna pursue action, um, giveyourself some, some achievable goals.
So what, maybe once a week you'regonna give yourself permission for 30
minutes or an hour of, of explorationand curiosity and looking into
something or researching someone.
Or maybe that same time a week,you're giving yourself permission
to reach out to four or five peoplethat are experts in that thing.
And just send 'em an email or a text or a,a social media message and ask them, would
(19:14):
it be okay if we, if we had some feedback,um, you know, set it on your calendar,
some, some, some milestones for, by thistime I will have learned this, um, or I
would've reached out to this many people.
Um, I tell a story about a good friend ofmine, Nick Davies, who's, uh, an assistant
principal in Vancouver, Washington.
And, um.
He called me a couple years ago becausehe was kind of curious about what I
(19:36):
do, and he was asking me questions andum, he just finished his PhD and he was
kinda like, man, well I've got this.
I, I devoted all this time tofinish this degree and now I
still have this time available.
How can I best maximize it?
And so, um, I said, well, how aboutdoing what you're doing right now?
Like reach, just keep reaching outto people that you wanna learn from.
Well, he, he's not stopped.
(19:57):
I, I had an email from him today and it'slike his 65th person that he's reached
out to, because he'll summarize everyconversation that he has with them.
And he posted on LinkedIn andso he's just on this journey of
learning, um, because every time hecalls somebody that does something,
he's curious in he something new.
Um, and so, um, and as aresult, uh, I think it was.
Last year, I know he isdone this more than once.
(20:18):
He's been presenting at nationalconferences on things I'm
learning from calling leaders.
And so, um, so because it'sbecome something that's a
passion for him and other peoplewanna know what he's learning.
So, um, so those are just somepractical things to keep in mind.
Jenn David-Lang (20:30):
Well also, you know, you mentioned achievable goals and you
were talking about like, you know, forthe week or for your calendar, but you,
you tell a, you tell a nice anecdotein the book about going to a church
dinner and meeting a man in his twenties
Will Parker (20:43):
who had
Jenn David-Lang (20:43):
already begun achieving some of his goals.
And, um, you know, you said, um, doesn'tit feel good to reach some of your goals?
And he turned to you as a mid-career.
Per se, mid-career and said,you know, okay, how about you?
What are your goals forthe next five to 10 years?
And you didn't have an answer for him.
So yeah.
That was such a, can you talka little bit about, yeah.
(21:03):
About, you know, goal setting atthis point when we are in the mid
or the twilight, wherever we are ofour career and still setting goals.
And also, can you talk aboutthe role of reflection in, in
helping to set those goals?
Will Parker (21:17):
Uh, thanks for that story, Jenn.
That was a, a crazy and, um,painful moment because, gosh,
I'm probably young, mid forties.
I'm already, you know, I'ma, I'm an administrator.
I'm a young dad.
I. Finished my ma, all these things, allthese milestones I had set for myself.
And so he's 20 years younger than meand he's telling me all these things
(21:37):
he's currently doing and I'm like,yeah, way to go, doesn't it feel good?
Bought his first house,started a new, new business.
And I was like, I remember when wewere achieving our goals when we,
you know, back in the day, you know,and he's like, oh, that's great.
So what do you plan forthe next five or 10 years?
And I was just like.
Um, to be honest, I'mjust trying to survive.
(21:58):
It's just all I can say,I'm just trying to survive.
And so when he walked away,I was haunted by that.
I was like, I haven't said it, like I'veachieved this thing in my mid-career, but
I haven't been thinking about what's next.
So, um, I. Uh, whatever you, you cancall it coincidence or providence.
But a few days later our church washosting an event for, uh, a, like a
men's retreat and it's the only timeI've ever been on an event like this.
(22:21):
I don't know why we haven't done itsince, 'cause it was so meaningful.
But we were given a day to startoff together with breakfast and.
And some, some study, but then wewere just kinda sent out on our
own for the af uh, the afternoonwith some reflection questions.
Just spend the dayreflecting, praying, whatever.
And those questions I've just held ontothem and I, 'cause I do this every year
for myself now, which are questionsand I'll just share 'em with listeners.
(22:43):
But you know, when's the last timeyou sit down and we just reflected
on what were the major milestonesyou've experienced in this past year?
What were the things you could saywere your greatest celebrations?
As you look back, what were you,what were the greatest challenges
that you faced over the past year,and what were the lessons learned
(23:09):
from those simple reflections?
And then after reflecting back then startlooking forward, what are some goals that
you would love to achieve for yourself?
And let's just fill inthe gaps physically.
Spiritually, relationally,vocationally, I mean, and you
could just keep listing them.
(23:30):
But by setting goals, then you giveyourself permission then to imagine the
possibilities of where you wanna go next.
But then, and this is the part where I'm,the educator kicked in for me, like how
then, how do you make them smart goals?
How do you actually make thosethings achievable, measurable.
Goals that you can put on your calendarand say, these are things that I wanna
try to accomplish throughout the year.
So if you look at the front of my.
(23:51):
I'm taking notes as we talk, but at thevery front of my notebook, the first
thing that I do and, and if I fill oneup, I always do this first, is I write
in all of my goals for the calendaryear in front of me that I've set.
And these aren't necessarily professionalgoals, but they're goals for my mind,
my body, my spirit, my money, my love,my family, my hobbies, my work, and
(24:14):
those are the things that I reviewon a regular basis so that I can be.
Giving myself permissionto achieve the next thing.
And this, and this isn'tabout like perfectionism.
It's not, um, uh, and, and this may notbe a formula that works for other people
or a practice that helps them, but, but,um, just to bring it back to a word,
(24:34):
said, Jenn, the power of reflection.
Um, oh, who was my friend that said this?
I'm gonna misquote someone ifI don't, um, get this right.
It was Pete Hall who said, I once heard,say, um, and he's a, he's a really great
educator and and writer, but he said,um, experience is not the best teacher.
I. Reflecting on yourexperiences is the best teacher.
(24:58):
And so there's something that powerfulthat happens when we pause and we
give ourselves permission to purposelyreflect so that we can then set goals
for those things that we wanna do next.
Dr. Mike Doughty (25:10):
And I, and I think to that point, will, I think it's very.
Growth mindset too, because I think thereare people who sort of naturally reflect
and it's just part of the way they think.
And there's other people whodo something and move on and
never think about it again.
But when prompted, you know, withsome sort of framework like you're
(25:30):
suggesting, they're able to makethose connections between what
happened and what might happen.
And I, and I think that's.
I mean, that gets lost on a, ona lot of people who are like,
ah, okay, yeah, that's over.
Let's just move.
Right on.
Will Parker (25:44):
No, I'm so glad you said that because you know, when Carol
Dweck's research on Growth Mindsetcame out, it was such, you know,
everybody was talking about it becausewe knew as educators that it works.
You know, I. When we're working with akid who struggles in math and he's telling
himself or herself, I'm not good at math,and, but you can say, well, maybe you're
not good at solving this problem yet.
Let's get there.
(26:05):
That whole growth mindset piece playsinto permission to learn something that
maybe you're scared to try or learn.
Why don't we do that for ourselves?
You know, why don't we giveourselves permission to just
keep expanding and growing?
So I think, um, for educators especially,and I'm not trying to say this be, you
know, we're recording this in May, soeverybody's exhausted this time of year.
(26:27):
But, but, but if we are trulycommitted, um, to the work of education,
we've gotta be truly committed.
To our own, how can we inspire otherpeople to learn if we're not constantly
like looking for that next thing or, orcurious or discovering the thing that's
keeping us wanting to be a student.
We, I don't know how we can, I don'tknow how we can lead students if
(26:50):
we're not staying students and, andreflection's a big part of that.
Jenn David-Lang (26:54):
I wanna push back a little bit.
Mike, I, I was just reading a book.
I think you interviewed him well, so youprobably know how to pronounce his name.
Um, Bari?
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not sure how to pronounce it, butI was just reading his book and he was
actually really arguing for reflecting.
Um, by writing stuff down, not justin that commute home from, from work,
because he said it's really by lookingback and seeing the patterns of, you
(27:17):
know, what happened in September,what was I thinking in October?
Now that you sort of, you see thepatterns and they help you, whatever
it is, whether you're improvingyour school or you're making a big
move for yourself professionally.
Um, he really argued for that.
Will Parker (27:30):
Yeah.
Jenn David-Lang (27:31):
Well,
Will Parker (27:31):
I love Marie,
Jenn David-Lang (27:33):
what were you gonna say?
Will Parker (27:34):
No, I love him.
He's got such greatwork, but he's so right.
Jenn David-Lang (27:37):
He is right.
Um, so will you keep, we keeptalking, getting to you, keep
using this word permission andit is the title of your book.
Whose permission are you waiting for?
And you say the chapter that is named,whose permission are you waiting for?
Chapter six is the heart of the book.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, you, yousuggest that perhaps in some.
(27:58):
We are the biggest obstacle to makingthe change that we want to see, whether
that's professionally our schools, but youknow, here you're talking professionally.
Can you talk about how it is thatwe might be our biggest barriers and
what you mean by whose permission?
Will Parker (28:12):
Yeah, it's, it's so hard to recreate this moment in, um,
in a conversation, so I'll just tryto recreate it from an just, let's
imagine you're having a conversation.
So a lot of times, especiallywhen I'm coaching leaders.
And I'm sitting in a room or a Zoom andthey're sharing that thing that's on
their mind, and then they're sharingthat thing that's really on their mind.
(28:34):
'cause usually what I've discoveredas leaders will share the surface
thing first, and then after a whilethey'll say, okay, this is really
what's what I'm challenged with.
Once they've identified what that realchallenge is, challenges, and then they
identify what they really believe is.
Um, what they want is a solution becausea lot of times when I'm reflecting
(28:55):
with leaders, it's that question,what is it that you really want?
Or I've heard some people say, ifyou can make wave a magic wand, what
would be the outcome that you want?
When they can identify and then explainthe outcome that they want, then they
begin to see potential solutions.
So I can't tell you how many timesI've sat with a leader who suddenly
(29:16):
has that light bulb where theyrecognize what they want or what
they know needs to happen next.
And then I'll be able to say,well, whose permission are you
waiting for for that to happen?
They recognize the onlyperson's permission they're
waiting for is their own.
Because when you can imagine thepossibilities and you can see the
potential of something that's gettingready to happen, there are times where
(29:37):
you may have an obstacle that's not you.
It could be a system, it could bea person, it could be a permission,
it could be an authority structure.
It could be.
Um, geography, it could belack of de degree people.
We can come up with a, a lot ofexcuses for why we can't do something.
Um, and I, I'm probably pushingreally hard on this, in this chapter,
(29:58):
but, but what I would like to sayto leaders is, um, you don't need
anybody's permission to keep learningor to take the next step or to.
Experience that thingthat's gonna bring you joy.
There's so much that we can do rightwhere we are, whether it's helping a
student or helping someone on our teamor building towards that next thing that
(30:21):
doesn't require anybody else's permission.
Um, and so, um, I think, and this isprobably because I had to overcome
these, this kinds of mindset growing up.
Um, I grew up in a, um,I wonderful parents.
We grew up on a farm.
Um.
But, uh, both my parents without anyadvanced degrees, my dad did not finish
(30:41):
high school, finished his GED wentin the military, um, loving family.
Um, but I also had a lot oflimits, like in my own mindset
of like what was possible.
And, um, and what I discovered as Iwas getting older, even when I became
a teacher, is I would sometimes believethere were limits that didn't even exist.
Like, you know how sometimes you createrules for yourself that don't exist?
(31:04):
And so, um.
I think that, um, once I started figuringout that for me, um, the person's
permission that I needed first was myown, then I began to again, break free
from that restriction that I was pushingagainst sometimes or the binary that
(31:25):
sometimes I was creating for myselfand was able to, um, begin to step.
Into some other potential.
So I don't, I know that's not answeringthe question directly, Jenn or Mike, but,
um, but I just wanna start there becauseI think that it's so important for people
to recognize that when you know whatyou want to do next, um, giving yourself
permission to move, um, gives you power,uh, and imagination to take the next step.
Dr. Mike Doughty (31:49):
Let, let's explore that a little bit more if we can.
Do you mind?
Yeah, let's do it.
Um.
How, how do you coach peopleto figure out what they want?
'cause I think sometimes, again, like,you know, many of us have only ever
worked in schools, so it's very narrow.
So is it, you know, just a bunch ofreflection, is it ask other people what
(32:14):
they think you're good at or, you know?
Mm-hmm.
How, how do you get people there?
Will Parker (32:20):
Well, let me give you an example.
So, um, several weeks ago I had aphone call, well, a Zoom meeting
with a, a teacher who's finishinga master's degree in education.
Leadership.
I. And, um, um, she had reached outto me because she was stuck, um,
and was just kind of, you know, knewmy podcast, but was just kind of
(32:43):
stuck with like, what to do next.
So we stepped into a conversation andin that conversation, Mike, I asked
her, okay, tell me what you currentlyare doing and what you love about it.
So she did, she was currently,uh, teaching but also, um, doing
some instructional coachingas a part of her, her duties.
Um.
I asked her, okay, based on your,you know, you have this new degree,
(33:05):
what's something that you think youmay want to do in addition to that?
And she was like, well, I'm thinkingabout, you know, the, in my school,
an assistant principal would belike the next thing that I could do
with that, with that degree area.
So I told her, okay, well tellme what you, what you would like
about that work and what youwouldn't like about that work.
And she did.
And I said, if, um.
(33:27):
And I'm coming back to that thingwe had talked about earlier.
I was like it, so if if moneywas off the table or feel fear of
failure was off the table, what'ssomething else you'd love to do?
And she was like, man, I would reallylove to expand more coaching with
teachers because it's only a part of mywork right now, but it's something that
I would just really love to do more ofbecause it just brings me so much joy
and I see how much it's helping them.
(33:48):
And so I was like,okay, well let's, let's.
Let's create some pathways, youknow, potentials for all three
of these things and see whichof them opens up doors for you.
And um, and this isn't somebodyI was gonna coach on an ongoing
basis, it was just a one time call.
So a couple of weeks later, um, sheactually lives in our community,
so she ran into my wife and she wastelling my wife, um, Hey, by the way,
(34:10):
I haven't called will, but, um, I.
Have just been chewing on these pathwaysand I just was, I couldn't get out of
this, this thought of how much more Iwould love to do instructional coaching.
So I went to my principal and just said,you know, I've got the potential now
to move on or do something differentor apply for these other positions,
but this has become such a passion.
Is there any way within the structurethat we currently have that I could
(34:32):
do more coaching with teachers?
And of course.
Because he's a leader that didn't wannalose a really great teacher, and he was
able to recognize the potential resources.
He's developed an entire new trajectoryfor her for next year where she's gonna
get to do a whole lot more teachercoaching than she was previously.
So I know that doesn't answer yourquestion directly, Mike, but I think
(34:55):
the first thing you have to askyourself is those, those same questions
that I ask her, what's somethingyou're currently doing that you enjoy
to do and would love to do more?
What's something that might be a,a second next best step for you?
Um, and something that she told mywife that I thought was funny too is
that she said the more she explored theoptions, the more she realized she didn't
really wanna be an assistant principal.
Like the things that were Well, andthat's what I was gonna ask you, right?
(35:16):
Like,
Dr. Mike Doughty (35:16):
how much of this thinking is, think about the stuff you
put off, think about the stuff you hatedoing about your current job, and then
think about how to do the stuff you like.
Will Parker (35:30):
Yes.
Dr. Mike Doughty (35:30):
Which sounds easy for people.
You know, I'm, I'm what, four yearsaway from retirement, so that,
that's easy for me to say, right?
Because I'm, I'm staring at a pension.
I can do whatever I want in four years.
But what about peoplewho are more mid-career?
Because that, that's the, that's likethe, the inflection point for so many
people because in order to make itworthwhile to make that transition to
(35:54):
being an administrator these days, youalmost have to go early in your career.
Otherwise it's not worth it.
It's not worth it to work anothertwo months out of the year and
not get paid that much more money.
Like how, so how do you, how do youkinda coach those folks who may feel
like they have, they, they have moreto, to lose or more to, you know, that's
(36:16):
holding them in the current situation.
Mm-hmm.
Will Parker (36:20):
Um, well, do you wanna do a quick practice together, Mike?
Dr. Mike Doughty (36:24):
You're killing me.
Yes.
Go.
Will Parker (36:27):
Okay.
I'm gonna, we're gonna do an abbreviatedversion, and this is a model that I,
I learned from, uh, uh, another coach.
Her name is, um, Sam Horn.
She's got a book called The Happiness Box.
I love to do this with myselfand with other leaders.
So, um, we'll do this for listeners,so you're gonna have to think out loud.
Okay.
So, um, we're gonna think in fourcategories because these four categories
(36:47):
are gonna be the, um, doing, notdoing, want to do and don't want to do.
Okay.
Are you ready?
Okay, so category one, doing,what are you doing right now in
work or life that you want to do?
You just love it?
Dr. Mike Doughty (36:59):
Uh, presenting, like learning new things and teaching
them to large groups of people.
Will Parker (37:08):
Okay.
I love that.
Dr. Mike Doughty (37:09):
Talking to interesting people and learning about what they do.
Will Parker (37:16):
Hmm.
Okay.
So you love to present, you love tolearn new things, you love to teach.
You love working with large groups.
What are some things, so category two thatyou're not doing but you want to be doing?
Hmm.
Or maybe you're not doingas much as you want to be,
Dr. Mike Doughty (37:35):
not doing, but want to be doing?
Well, I mean, is it just careerrelated or it can be life or work.
See, that's the thing.
I, I would, I would love to do more.
I. More things outdoors, more,more things that are physically
active that make my body feel good.
Will Parker (37:55):
Oh, I love that.
So you would love to spendmore time outdoors, physically,
ac just gimme outside.
Yep.
Let me, let me do thosethings that I love outside.
Awesome.
All right.
Category three.
What are you currently doingthat you don't want to be doing?
Dr. Mike Doughty (38:10):
Ugh.
Anything related to.
Details of day-to-day operations, email.
Mm-hmm.
HR stuff, budget.
Will Parker (38:21):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Mike Doughty (38:21):
Anything like that.
Things that we have to get competentat as administrators, but that
I would just prefer not to do.
Will Parker (38:30):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Calendars, all that stuff.
All that nonsense.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
And then category four,um, what are you not doing?
In your life and you'reglad you're not doing it.
Now, this may be something you used to doand you're so glad you no longer do it.
And like, for example, maybe youused to smoke and now you don't.
Dr. Mike Doughty (38:48):
Um, let's see.
Um, that's a good one.
Uh, you know, I, I work in an educationalservice agency and one of the things
that I really like about that isthat, you know, we don't have the same
interaction with a community or votersor things like that where I have other.
Folks that I have to respond toand work with, but not that piece.
(39:14):
Yeah.
And, and I, I, I don'tmiss student discipline.
I don't mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Miss employee discipline, likethings like that, that, ugh.
Will Parker (39:23):
So you're really glad that you're in a position where you can
still support the work, but you're notdealing with as much conflict as you did.
And especially when it comes in,and I was in AP for nine years,
I don't miss student discipline.
And so, you know, so that's somethingI always put down on my list.
So here's the, here's the thing.
So listeners, you may be takingmental notes for yourself.
When you think about those fourcategories, doing, not doing, want to
(39:44):
do, don't want to do, there's, there's a.
Yeah, there's a tension betweenyour not doing and don't want to do.
So, um, so in other words, youwould love to be able to spend
more time outdoors doing physicalactivities, being more active.
You would, you reallywish you were doing less?
(40:05):
Emails, HR, budgets, calendars,and those kinds of things too.
And here's what I've discovered isthat, um, and this doesn't always
work 'cause because when you'recomparing life and work, the,
it's not always in these tensions.
Don't always play on each other this way.
But in general, the more thingsyou can get off of that three, that
things I wish I was no longer doing,the more it frees you up to be able
(40:29):
to start doing things you want to.
And so let me take that back to my yearsas a principal when I recognize that like.
There's no way I can actually beout in classrooms and be observing
teachers unless I can train someoneelse to manage those phone calls that
are coming in or to be my tier one,tier two responders to these things
(40:49):
that I don't need to be answering.
I can train somebody elseto answer those things.
Once I began to train other peopleto do that for me, then it freed me
up to do the things only I could do.
But even in the work I'm doing now, likeconsulting full-time, um, I realized like.
I was no longer wanting to edit myown podcast or manage my own calendar
all the time, or do my own invoicing.
(41:10):
So I hired an assistant and trainedher to begin to do those things for
me and meet with me on a regular basisto kind of walk me through the things
that I should only be working on soshe could handle the things that.
She could do to free me up to domore of the things only I can do.
So there's a tension in allthese questions, Mike, which I
think we can all regularly visit.
(41:31):
'cause I do this practiceto myself every year.
Um, and I think when, when we visitthose practices over time, it becomes
a little more obvious to us where I canbegin to make some movement or where
I can begin to tweak things, um, togive myself permission to do more of
the things that I want to be doing.
So I. I dunno if that's helpful,but I, I just wanna understand.
(41:51):
Oh yeah,
Dr. Mike Doughty (41:51):
that was great.
I love, well, I, you know, I am my ownfavorite topic, so I appreciate that.
Well, well, this has been, I, wemight be sensitive to your time.
This has been just a, a fantasticconversation and I, I hope, I
hope more folks pick up your bookand, and, and reflect on all,
all of these questions and all 20chapters and, you know, just, it is.
(42:15):
It is kind of cool to, to think biggerabout what you're doing because I
think we get so, so mired in theday-to-day stuff that we forget there.
There's a lot out there.
I.
Will Parker (42:27):
There is.
Um, and you guys are so generous.
Thank you.
And I know in the book, Jenn,you mentioned this at the
top of the conversation, thatI do tell a lot of stories.
I'm a storyteller.
Um, but I tried to make it both somethingthat was conversational because these
are the kinds of conversations that, um.
It's usually when you're walking alongsidea friend that you'll open up and say, you
(42:49):
know, this has really been on my mind, soI wanted to invite readers to trust me.
Um, and then I want, but I also wantedto just share, just like you and I
did, mark, Mike, some of those thingsthat, that I. I regularly practice as
reflective tools or ideas or mapping.
I do a whole chapter on backward mapping.
I share my own resume.
Just all the things that, that becomepieces of that as you're planning and
(43:12):
thinking ahead, because, um, if I couldhelp one person to just feel like they've
given themselves permission to dreamand inquire and, uh, and allow yourself
to have the joy you did as a kid whenyou're discovering something new, um,
give yourself permission to have that joy.
Now you're, um, you'renever too old to, to.
It's a delight in the potentialpathways in front of us.
Jenn David-Lang (43:35):
We invite everyone to walk alongside Will as you read his book,
whose permission are you waiting for aneducator's guide to doing what you love.
We'll put some, um, contactinformation in the show notes
so you know where to find will.
And thank you so much for taking the time.
It really has been so great to,uh, see you and talk to you.
Thank
Dr. Mike Doughty (43:53):
you guys.
Thanks for listening to this episode ofThe School Leadership Show, a podcast for
aspiring and practicing school leaders.
Send your comments, questions, and showideas to me, mike@schoolleadershipshow.com
and please consider rating thepodcast and iTunes and leaving a
comment and definitely pass theshow along to your colleagues.
Hello and welcome to The School Leadership Show.
I am here with my veryenergetic co-host, Mike Doughty.
Hi Mike.
Dr. Mike Doughty (00:12):
Hi Jenn.
Jenn David-Lang (00:14):
And, um, we are, we have a very special guest today who
already, Mike has threatened to, uh,take over the conversation and make it
all about him and his career trajectory.
But you'll, you'll getthat in just a moment.
Um, today we have Will Parker joining us.
Um, I actually first heard of Will Parkermany years ago when I was researching
like the top 10 education leadershippodcasts for subscribers of the main Idea.
(00:39):
And I found his podcast PrincipalMatters and listen to it.
And it's an excellent mixof both practical advice and
inspiration for school leaders.
So listen to his podcast.
Um, and then I learned more about him.
Will has been a long time educatorin Oklahoma since 1993, starting
as a teacher then a. School leader.
(00:59):
Then eventually he ran the entireOklahoma Association of Secondary School
Principals, as well as the OklahomaMiddle Level Education Association.
And now I think about two years will.
He is been full-time, um,everything consultant, he
speaks, he coaches, leaders, heteaches leaders, he writes books.
(01:20):
He, uh, runs masterminds like I do.
Um, all in the name of serving leaders.
So I summarized his earlier book MessagingMatters and now he has a new book and
I also just got to meet Will in personat a wonderful SAM conference where we
were both presenting and it was great.
And um, it's just wonderful to have youhere to join Mike and me on the show.
(01:42):
So welcome Will.
Will Parker (01:44):
Oh my gosh, it's so great to be with the two of you.
I admire your both of your works and thankyou for bringing me on the podcast and
we were just celebrating off the air the.
The New York Power that's inthis room with the two of you.
And I have had a chance to workwith S'S a little bit this year,
doing some virtual work with them.
The possibility of mecoming up there in the fall.
(02:04):
So, uh, so we'll, we'll see ifI'm, if I'm in your neck of the
woods, I'll let you guys know.
Dr. Mike Doughty (02:09):
I love it.
And for people who don't know,S'S is the School Administrators
Association of New York State.
So if, uh, you're a schooladministrator in New York, you
definitely know what S'S is.
So cool.
You're doing some work with them.
Well, they're, they're a great group.
Will Parker (02:24):
They are, it's a privilege.
Jenn David-Lang (02:27):
Come join us.
We'd love to see you in person.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so you have a new bookout and it's called Whose
Permission Are You Waiting For?
An Educator's Guide toDoing What You Love.
Mm-hmm.
And when I first picked it up, Iwasn't sure exactly what it was
going to be about, but it turns outthat it is a great book to help you
think through career options or evenjust get yourself out of a rut and
(02:51):
reconnect to your joy as an educator.
So I was expecting a whole bunch ofcareer advice in this book, but one
of the things that I got out of thisbook Will, is that you are just like
a shining role model of a person.
You're a lovely human being.
There are all these fantastic anecdotesabout your daughter, your wife, about
going sailing, and you just, you seemso grounded and reflective that I think
(03:14):
that anybody should read this book.
Just to learn a little bit more about you.
What Mike, you're putting in your head.
Wait,
Dr. Mike Doughty (03:19):
wait.
Hang on a second.
I got, now you gotta go to this one.
Where does one sail in Oklahoma?
Will Parker (03:25):
Well, Mike, uh, I have a really good friend who has a sailboat,
um, off the coast of Maryland.
And so in that chapter, um, I getto, to tell that story, but I, I
love to travel, so you're gonna findin that book all kinds of stories
about times on farms and sailing andhiking, the coastal path in Wales.
And so, uh, travel's a,a big part of my love.
Jenn David-Lang (03:48):
And a, and a good reminder how important it's to be
balanced and have something other thanschool and leadership work in your life.
So that, that's great.
But yeah, so this is a different bookthan one that I would normally summarize.
We would talk about whereyou're really, um, you know.
Some guidance to people who maywanna, you know, shift a little
bit in their education career.
(04:09):
So can you tell a little bit about like,why did you write this book and what
you hope people will get out of it?
Will Parker (04:14):
Jenn, thank you for your, like, such a, you're so generous.
But, um, so let's rewind like,I don't know, 25 years ago and.
My entire career as an educator,teaching administration, and even
the work I do now, I, I always feellike I'm prepping for something else.
Like I'm loving what I do, but I'm alwaysthinking about, you know, well five
(04:36):
years from now or 10 years from now.
And if you could have gone back 25 yearsago, um, I was looking for this book.
Uh, you know, I was, I was, Ifound myself constantly thinking
about, well, what is next?
Or what is the, what's thispathway and this journey look like?
So I would find books oncareers or self-help or business
entrepreneurship or, you know, name it.
There's all kinds of stuff out there.
(04:57):
But when I finally stepped into this work,full time consulting two years ago, um.
I was coaching a lot of, and I stillam coaching a lot of leaders and, and
I'm just gonna say when I say highachieving leaders, people that reach
out to me because they're, they'realready at the top of their field
and they really want to get better.
(05:18):
And the crazy thing is that inthose conversations, I find myself
answering a lot of the same questions,even from high performing leaders.
And not always, but it seems likeinevitably I get to the place
with someone too, where they'reat a crossroads and they're trying
to decide in their own career.
Or in their own life, um, that next thing.
Um, and, but then sometimes it's justa crossroads in their leadership.
(05:41):
Like there's something thatneeds to change and they need
to kind of know which way to go.
I. And so I just found myself kindof in these circles of conversations
over and over and over again, andall of my previous books have been a
result of when I find myself sayingthe same thing over and over again
and I haven't already written a bookabout it, it's time to write that book.
And so this book was really bornfrom the coaching, it was born from.
(06:04):
These are those crucial conversationsI keep having over and over again.
So.
Gosh, more than three years ago, Iguess I, when I first stepped into
the work and was doing it full time,I, I just sat down one day and just
started brain dumping what are themajor themes I keep touching on?
And I came up with 20 of them, uh, whichbecame the, the content for this book.
And so it was the labor oflove to try to write and.
(06:24):
Coach and all the other thingsI'm doing at the same time.
'cause I also do a podcast like you guys.
Um, but it's, uh, that's what was, that'swhere it was born from Jenn, because so
many of the lessons I've learned throughmy own path and journey, I'm able now to
go, you know, looking back now I can, thisis a gift I hope to younger educators,
but also to my peers because, uh, they'rethings that are, that are still helping
(06:47):
me, um, in my own decision making.
Jenn David-Lang (06:50):
I think it's really timely.
'cause I think a lot of us are hearingabout educators who, who wanted to shift
a little something in their careers.
And also, you know, it can be toughin our field in particular to stay
in education for the long haul.
'cause we don't seem to havethat same career ladder that a
lot of other professions have.
Like you might enter as a middleschool teacher and 40 years later
(07:10):
you're a middle school teacher.
Right?
Yeah.
Maybe you'll be a department chair, right?
Um, or, and even if you dodecide to become an assistant
principal or principal, it's,it's really a different job.
It's not necessarily, you know, movingup in, uh, in the same type of ladder.
So, you know, you have a chapter on.
Avoiding the binary and how educatorscan open up ideas for themselves, um,
(07:37):
when there's not always a clear path.
So what do you say to that, you know,principal who's been in the position
for 40 years and doesn't really see soclearly the next step, it's like, either
I'm a superintendent or I'm retired,you know, or So what, explain a little
bit more about avoiding the binary.
Will Parker (07:53):
Yeah, well, avoiding the binary for me and, and pathway thinking.
They go, they're companions.
So there's probably two chapters thatI cover on those, but, um, this has
just been a really helpful idea tokeep in mind that so often when we're
facing a really difficult decision, andI'm, and I'm thinking back to my own
(08:14):
years, even as a young administrator,um, a lot of times you're expecting.
Things to be very black andwhite, which we know they're not.
Or we're expecting that we canmake a choice between two really
good options, but sometimes it'sa good option and a bad option.
But what I've discovered withleaders is a lot of times you've
got decisions between sometimes,which is the best option, and but.
(08:38):
I don't even know where, wherethis thinking began for me.
There was a really good bookby Dave Evans and Bill Burnett
called Designing Your Life.
And I mentioned thisin in the book as well.
And they were design engineeringprofessors at Stanford
University who while workingwith really talented students, I.
Ran into the same things with thesehigh achieving kids that we run into
with everybody we know, which isthey were getting degrees in design,
(09:01):
engineering and still wonderingwhat am I supposed to do next?
And so their professors, um,Evans and and Burnett decided
to create an elective course forstudents on designing your life.
And so they use the samedesign engineering ideas.
For helping them to think aboutmultiple pathway options in front
(09:22):
of you that you could beta test.
In order to identify potentialgoals, look at possible solutions.
Talk to people who may be expertsin those potential pathways and
look for open doors within them.
And the key is not to think aboutone or two potential pathways.
The key is to think of three orfour, is to give yourself the i, the
(09:44):
the permission to begin to navigatelooking at more than just the binary.
This is not a decisionbetween this and this.
Let's look at the decisionbetween A, B, or C or even D.
Uh.
What the reason that book resonatedwith me is because when I, um, came
across that idea and I first found themonline, and then I bought the book, I
looked across the offices of my wall,the walls of my office, excuse me.
(10:08):
And I laughed becauseI was doing it already.
I had all these huge post-its whereI had different pathways up in front
of me, or I was exploring differentthings that I was working on and
and doing, and I would iterate them.
Um.
So the idea of avoiding the binaryis recognizing that most of the time
when you have a decision in front ofyou, a lot of times it's not between
(10:29):
A and B, or maybe it is only becauseyou've put that limit in your mind.
And so there's something reallyeye-opening when you start asking yourself
the question, is there a potential C orD here that I'm not even thinking about?
And uh, so in careers, a lot oftimes that question could be okay.
What's the potential pathway thatyou're on right now that could lead
(10:50):
to something else you may enjoy doing?
Um, right where you are,you don't even have to move.
Uh, maybe it's a promotion.
Maybe it's just a, an, an increasingof something you enjoy doing.
There B would be.
What's something really logical that couldbe a shift that's not too far from where
I'm at, but could be a logical next thing.
C could be something like, what if Ihad to completely change directions?
(11:12):
I'm going, but maybe it's connectedto my skills, my gift sets, uh,
the things that I'd love to do.
Uh, and, but my favorite one is to askthe question, what if you could create
a pathway for yourself where, um, fearof failure, um, was off the table?
What would you do then?
Boy, you talk about expanding your mind,and so really what you're doing when you
(11:35):
avoid the binary and you give yourselfpermission to think in terms of pathways
is you're, you're, you're giving yourselfthe permission to do what you did as kids
to create playgrounds for the potentialsthat are in front of you, and then begin
to explore them systematically until youfind the openings and the possibilities.
That usually are just waiting for you tofind them once you start down those paths.
(11:57):
So it's not magic.
I'm not trying to, you know, this isnot a book that's trying to give people
some formula for decision making orcareer projections, but, but I, what
I've tried to do is just, um, teachthe things that have helped me in my
own journey and I've seen help others.
Dr. Mike Doughty (12:14):
So it's, it's interesting that you say that because I
think we almost as educators need thatkind of framework because if you've been
an educator for your entire career, andI, and I have this conversation with
people all the time, like I, I don'tknow what somebody who works in business
does, because I've never done anythingother than basically be in school.
Will Parker (12:38):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Mike Doughty (12:38):
So, you know, how do you get people to.
To broaden their perspective.
I mean, I think every time I go visita career in tech ed class, I talk to
the kids and I'm like, you know what?
You'll never want for work.
You can cut hair or you cancook, or you can fix a car.
I lose my job.
I have no discernible skills.
(12:59):
So how, how do you get people tosee that what they're doing has the
potential to be, you know, desirablein other fields or, or maybe within
education, but in different ways?
Will Parker (13:14):
Well, I think a part of that is remaining curious.
Um, I have this little equation that,that I call, you know, inquiry plus
curiosity plus inquiry equals discovery.
Um, and so, um, who was it?
I I, I'm not gonna quote this personcorrectly 'cause I'm, it's, this just
came to my mind, but I can't rememberwho said it, so I'm gonna, but I
(13:34):
heard someone once say, I think itwas a, like a musician who once said
that, um, you know, creative people.
Are the creative adults are the oneswho survive childhood, you know?
So because we beat creativity out ofkids, you know, and so by the time they
get to a certain age, they quit askingquestions, they quit dreaming, they
quit being so in, you know, curious.
(13:55):
And I don't know why I am not gonna blameit on education or you know, the system
or whatever, but I'll just say that, um.
All of us are born with thislike insatiable curiosity.
So why do we not get to keepdoing that as, as as we grow?
And so, Mike, when I think aboutlike potentials, um, you don't
have to even travel now to,to explore your curiosities.
(14:19):
And so I'll give you a couple of examples.
One, um, when I was an assistant per,no, when I was a teacher and I was
getting my master's degree to become aschool admin, I, I was taking a class,
a course in, um, probably on, you know.
Capital management orschool funding or something.
And, but I had never doneanything but teaching.
So, you know, so trying to study schoolfunding was just so, like, it was a, it
(14:42):
was a tough thing for me to, to take in.
So one day I was on my planning period atschool and I just had this little thought.
I was like, you know, whatdo they do at payroll?
What do they do at the central office?
Said, you know what I did?
I went to central officeon my planning period.
I didn't even, I didn't even call.
I just walked in and said, is,is, would it be okay for me
to talk somebody in payroll?
And they were like, okay.
(15:03):
So they got me back to payroll and Iwent back there and she probably thought
I was upset with my check or something.
And I was just like,
Dr. Mike Doughty (15:09):
because nobody's showing up to tell those folks.
They're doing a great job.
Yeah.
So I was just
Will Parker (15:12):
like, I was just like, Hey, I'm just curious.
How do you do payroll?
And she was like, like, really?
And I was like, yeah.
And she was like, have a seat.
And so she starts pulling out allher stuff and it was the first
time I had ever sat and watchedwhat someone did to pay me.
And so, so Mike, I'm just like, somaybe it's just will, but I think that.
(15:33):
I didn't get in trouble forbeing curious, and I certainly
learned a lot from being curious.
And then later when I'm doing the workof other people getting paid well,
that, that I'm managing, I had a bettersense of what's going on down there.
And so that's just one example.
And another example is when I startedpodcasting, um, I was already writing
a blog like 12 years ago and then,but I started listening to podcasts
(15:55):
and I was like, man, these are so fun.
How do you do that?
And so I went online and started.
Watching, like I, pat Flynnhad a, had a six part How do
you podcast series on YouTube.
And I watched it.
And over Christmas break I sat downand I took notes and I followed it
step by step by step by step by step.
(16:16):
And I published my first podcast justas afraid as everything in the world
that someone would hear it and judge me.
But that curiosity just led me to let's gofigure it out and, and let's find it out.
So, um.
I probably am like that reallyannoying person though at like.
Um, people's parties too, because I alwaystry to find the person who does something
(16:38):
I don't know how to do, and, and I justliked, I wanna find out what it takes.
So, um, but I, I would just, I justdon't wanna invite listeners to think
about, um, giving yourself permissionto pursue, pursue the curiosity because
there's nothing people enjoy more.
Then when you call them and askthem, how do you do what you do?
(16:59):
People love to talk about what they do.
So in the book by Bernard and, andEvans, and I'm probably gonna talk
more about their book than mine, um,they encourage people to, um, when you
are identifying potential pathways andyou're in, you're trying to create.
Some, um, ideas of what to do next.
Identify experts within the fieldsthat you're most interested in, and
just find out how to message themand ask them, could I sit in a room
(17:23):
with you for 30 minutes or could wehave a coffee or could we do a zoom?
And just ask them those questions.
Can you tell me what you do and whatyou've learned from what you do?
And people love to answer those questions.
I,
Jenn David-Lang (17:33):
I wanna build on that.
And it's absolutely not because you'reannoying that you are curious and ask all
these questions, but, you know, I think,I think Mike is right, not just about
adults, but, but young, you know, but, butolder kids too, that you don't choose a
career path by sitting in your room and,you know, diving into the recesses of your
mind and imagining, you know, oh, I knowwhat an investment bank I'm gonna imagine.
(17:55):
Do I wanna be an investment banker?
I think it.
Yes, by what you're describing, beingcurious and reaching out to experts or
watching YouTube videos at this point.
But you know, you also described sort ofa very methodical, like, get your feet
wet and you describe some actual actions.
Get out, don't justsit there in your room.
But you talk about highlighting,shadowing, volunteering.
(18:17):
Can you share some of these, um, ideas sothat people, while they have their, their
full-time jobs and their benefits andeverything, what else can they be doing?
Um, in addition toreaching out to experts?
Will Parker (18:29):
Well, this, to me, this is the difference between idea and
action, and that's intentionality.
So if you, if you're curious aboutsomething and you really wanna
see it move from your curiosity toI. The potential for momentum to
be built, you gotta do something.
And so, um, for me, most of the timewhen I'm trying to, and when I'm coaching
(18:50):
others that wanna pursue action, um, giveyourself some, some achievable goals.
So what, maybe once a week you'regonna give yourself permission for 30
minutes or an hour of, of explorationand curiosity and looking into
something or researching someone.
Or maybe that same time a week,you're giving yourself permission
to reach out to four or five peoplethat are experts in that thing.
And just send 'em an email or a text or a,a social media message and ask them, would
(19:14):
it be okay if we, if we had some feedback,um, you know, set it on your calendar,
some, some, some milestones for, by thistime I will have learned this, um, or I
would've reached out to this many people.
Um, I tell a story about a good friend ofmine, Nick Davies, who's, uh, an assistant
principal in Vancouver, Washington.
And, um.
He called me a couple years ago becausehe was kind of curious about what I
(19:36):
do, and he was asking me questions andum, he just finished his PhD and he was
kinda like, man, well I've got this.
I, I devoted all this time tofinish this degree and now I
still have this time available.
How can I best maximize it?
And so, um, I said, well, how aboutdoing what you're doing right now?
Like reach, just keep reaching outto people that you wanna learn from.
Well, he, he's not stopped.
(19:57):
I, I had an email from him today and it'slike his 65th person that he's reached
out to, because he'll summarize everyconversation that he has with them.
And he posted on LinkedIn andso he's just on this journey of
learning, um, because every time hecalls somebody that does something,
he's curious in he something new.
Um, and so, um, and as aresult, uh, I think it was.
Last year, I know he isdone this more than once.
(20:18):
He's been presenting at nationalconferences on things I'm
learning from calling leaders.
And so, um, so because it'sbecome something that's a
passion for him and other peoplewanna know what he's learning.
So, um, so those are just somepractical things to keep in mind.
Jenn David-Lang (20:30):
Well also, you know, you mentioned achievable goals and you
were talking about like, you know, forthe week or for your calendar, but you,
you tell a, you tell a nice anecdotein the book about going to a church
dinner and meeting a man in his twenties
Will Parker (20:43):
who had
Jenn David-Lang (20:43):
already begun achieving some of his goals.
And, um, you know, you said, um, doesn'tit feel good to reach some of your goals?
And he turned to you as a mid-career.
Per se, mid-career and said,you know, okay, how about you?
What are your goals forthe next five to 10 years?
And you didn't have an answer for him.
So yeah.
That was such a, can you talka little bit about, yeah.
(21:03):
About, you know, goal setting atthis point when we are in the mid
or the twilight, wherever we are ofour career and still setting goals.
And also, can you talk aboutthe role of reflection in, in
helping to set those goals?
Will Parker (21:17):
Uh, thanks for that story, Jenn.
That was a, a crazy and, um,painful moment because, gosh,
I'm probably young, mid forties.
I'm already, you know, I'ma, I'm an administrator.
I'm a young dad.
I. Finished my ma, all these things, allthese milestones I had set for myself.
And so he's 20 years younger than meand he's telling me all these things
(21:37):
he's currently doing and I'm like,yeah, way to go, doesn't it feel good?
Bought his first house,started a new, new business.
And I was like, I remember when wewere achieving our goals when we,
you know, back in the day, you know,and he's like, oh, that's great.
So what do you plan forthe next five or 10 years?
And I was just like.
Um, to be honest, I'mjust trying to survive.
(21:58):
It's just all I can say,I'm just trying to survive.
And so when he walked away,I was haunted by that.
I was like, I haven't said it, like I'veachieved this thing in my mid-career, but
I haven't been thinking about what's next.
So, um, I. Uh, whatever you, you cancall it coincidence or providence.
But a few days later our church washosting an event for, uh, a, like a
men's retreat and it's the only timeI've ever been on an event like this.
(22:21):
I don't know why we haven't done itsince, 'cause it was so meaningful.
But we were given a day to startoff together with breakfast and.
And some, some study, but then wewere just kinda sent out on our
own for the af uh, the afternoonwith some reflection questions.
Just spend the dayreflecting, praying, whatever.
And those questions I've just held ontothem and I, 'cause I do this every year
for myself now, which are questionsand I'll just share 'em with listeners.
(22:43):
But you know, when's the last timeyou sit down and we just reflected
on what were the major milestonesyou've experienced in this past year?
What were the things you could saywere your greatest celebrations?
As you look back, what were you,what were the greatest challenges
that you faced over the past year,and what were the lessons learned
(23:09):
from those simple reflections?
And then after reflecting back then startlooking forward, what are some goals that
you would love to achieve for yourself?
And let's just fill inthe gaps physically.
Spiritually, relationally,vocationally, I mean, and you
could just keep listing them.
(23:30):
But by setting goals, then you giveyourself permission then to imagine the
possibilities of where you wanna go next.
But then, and this is the part where I'm,the educator kicked in for me, like how
then, how do you make them smart goals?
How do you actually make thosethings achievable, measurable.
Goals that you can put on your calendarand say, these are things that I wanna
try to accomplish throughout the year.
So if you look at the front of my.
(23:51):
I'm taking notes as we talk, but at thevery front of my notebook, the first
thing that I do and, and if I fill oneup, I always do this first, is I write
in all of my goals for the calendaryear in front of me that I've set.
And these aren't necessarily professionalgoals, but they're goals for my mind,
my body, my spirit, my money, my love,my family, my hobbies, my work, and
(24:14):
those are the things that I reviewon a regular basis so that I can be.
Giving myself permissionto achieve the next thing.
And this, and this isn'tabout like perfectionism.
It's not, um, uh, and, and this may notbe a formula that works for other people
or a practice that helps them, but, but,um, just to bring it back to a word,
(24:34):
said, Jenn, the power of reflection.
Um, oh, who was my friend that said this?
I'm gonna misquote someone ifI don't, um, get this right.
It was Pete Hall who said, I once heard,say, um, and he's a, he's a really great
educator and and writer, but he said,um, experience is not the best teacher.
I. Reflecting on yourexperiences is the best teacher.
(24:58):
And so there's something that powerfulthat happens when we pause and we
give ourselves permission to purposelyreflect so that we can then set goals
for those things that we wanna do next.
Dr. Mike Doughty (25:10):
And I, and I think to that point, will, I think it's very.
Growth mindset too, because I think thereare people who sort of naturally reflect
and it's just part of the way they think.
And there's other people whodo something and move on and
never think about it again.
But when prompted, you know, withsome sort of framework like you're
(25:30):
suggesting, they're able to makethose connections between what
happened and what might happen.
And I, and I think that's.
I mean, that gets lost on a, ona lot of people who are like,
ah, okay, yeah, that's over.
Let's just move.
Right on.
Will Parker (25:44):
No, I'm so glad you said that because you know, when Carol
Dweck's research on Growth Mindsetcame out, it was such, you know,
everybody was talking about it becausewe knew as educators that it works.
You know, I. When we're working with akid who struggles in math and he's telling
himself or herself, I'm not good at math,and, but you can say, well, maybe you're
not good at solving this problem yet.
Let's get there.
(26:05):
That whole growth mindset piece playsinto permission to learn something that
maybe you're scared to try or learn.
Why don't we do that for ourselves?
You know, why don't we giveourselves permission to just
keep expanding and growing?
So I think, um, for educators especially,and I'm not trying to say this be, you
know, we're recording this in May, soeverybody's exhausted this time of year.
(26:27):
But, but, but if we are trulycommitted, um, to the work of education,
we've gotta be truly committed.
To our own, how can we inspire otherpeople to learn if we're not constantly
like looking for that next thing or, orcurious or discovering the thing that's
keeping us wanting to be a student.
We, I don't know how we can, I don'tknow how we can lead students if
(26:50):
we're not staying students and, andreflection's a big part of that.
Jenn David-Lang (26:54):
I wanna push back a little bit.
Mike, I, I was just reading a book.
I think you interviewed him well, so youprobably know how to pronounce his name.
Um, Bari?
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not sure how to pronounce it, butI was just reading his book and he was
actually really arguing for reflecting.
Um, by writing stuff down, not justin that commute home from, from work,
because he said it's really by lookingback and seeing the patterns of, you
(27:17):
know, what happened in September,what was I thinking in October?
Now that you sort of, you see thepatterns and they help you, whatever
it is, whether you're improvingyour school or you're making a big
move for yourself professionally.
Um, he really argued for that.
Will Parker (27:30):
Yeah.
Jenn David-Lang (27:31):
Well,
Will Parker (27:31):
I love Marie,
Jenn David-Lang (27:33):
what were you gonna say?
Will Parker (27:34):
No, I love him.
He's got such greatwork, but he's so right.
Jenn David-Lang (27:37):
He is right.
Um, so will you keep, we keeptalking, getting to you, keep
using this word permission andit is the title of your book.
Whose permission are you waiting for?
And you say the chapter that is named,whose permission are you waiting for?
Chapter six is the heart of the book.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, you, yousuggest that perhaps in some.
(27:58):
We are the biggest obstacle to makingthe change that we want to see, whether
that's professionally our schools, but youknow, here you're talking professionally.
Can you talk about how it is thatwe might be our biggest barriers and
what you mean by whose permission?
Will Parker (28:12):
Yeah, it's, it's so hard to recreate this moment in, um,
in a conversation, so I'll just tryto recreate it from an just, let's
imagine you're having a conversation.
So a lot of times, especiallywhen I'm coaching leaders.
And I'm sitting in a room or a Zoom andthey're sharing that thing that's on
their mind, and then they're sharingthat thing that's really on their mind.
(28:34):
'cause usually what I've discoveredas leaders will share the surface
thing first, and then after a whilethey'll say, okay, this is really
what's what I'm challenged with.
Once they've identified what that realchallenge is, challenges, and then they
identify what they really believe is.
Um, what they want is a solution becausea lot of times when I'm reflecting
(28:55):
with leaders, it's that question,what is it that you really want?
Or I've heard some people say, ifyou can make wave a magic wand, what
would be the outcome that you want?
When they can identify and then explainthe outcome that they want, then they
begin to see potential solutions.
So I can't tell you how many timesI've sat with a leader who suddenly
(29:16):
has that light bulb where theyrecognize what they want or what
they know needs to happen next.
And then I'll be able to say,well, whose permission are you
waiting for for that to happen?
They recognize the onlyperson's permission they're
waiting for is their own.
Because when you can imagine thepossibilities and you can see the
potential of something that's gettingready to happen, there are times where
(29:37):
you may have an obstacle that's not you.
It could be a system, it could bea person, it could be a permission,
it could be an authority structure.
It could be.
Um, geography, it could belack of de degree people.
We can come up with a, a lot ofexcuses for why we can't do something.
Um, and I, I'm probably pushingreally hard on this, in this chapter,
(29:58):
but, but what I would like to sayto leaders is, um, you don't need
anybody's permission to keep learningor to take the next step or to.
Experience that thingthat's gonna bring you joy.
There's so much that we can do rightwhere we are, whether it's helping a
student or helping someone on our teamor building towards that next thing that
(30:21):
doesn't require anybody else's permission.
Um, and so, um, I think, and this isprobably because I had to overcome
these, this kinds of mindset growing up.
Um, I grew up in a, um,I wonderful parents.
We grew up on a farm.
Um.
But, uh, both my parents without anyadvanced degrees, my dad did not finish
(30:41):
high school, finished his GED wentin the military, um, loving family.
Um, but I also had a lot oflimits, like in my own mindset
of like what was possible.
And, um, and what I discovered as Iwas getting older, even when I became
a teacher, is I would sometimes believethere were limits that didn't even exist.
Like, you know how sometimes you createrules for yourself that don't exist?
(31:04):
And so, um.
I think that, um, once I started figuringout that for me, um, the person's
permission that I needed first was myown, then I began to again, break free
from that restriction that I was pushingagainst sometimes or the binary that
(31:25):
sometimes I was creating for myselfand was able to, um, begin to step.
Into some other potential.
So I don't, I know that's not answeringthe question directly, Jenn or Mike, but,
um, but I just wanna start there becauseI think that it's so important for people
to recognize that when you know whatyou want to do next, um, giving yourself
permission to move, um, gives you power,uh, and imagination to take the next step.
Dr. Mike Doughty (31:49):
Let, let's explore that a little bit more if we can.
Do you mind?
Yeah, let's do it.
Um.
How, how do you coach peopleto figure out what they want?
'cause I think sometimes, again, like,you know, many of us have only ever
worked in schools, so it's very narrow.
So is it, you know, just a bunch ofreflection, is it ask other people what
(32:14):
they think you're good at or, you know?
Mm-hmm.
How, how do you get people there?
Will Parker (32:20):
Well, let me give you an example.
So, um, several weeks ago I had aphone call, well, a Zoom meeting
with a, a teacher who's finishinga master's degree in education.
Leadership.
I. And, um, um, she had reached outto me because she was stuck, um,
and was just kind of, you know, knewmy podcast, but was just kind of
(32:43):
stuck with like, what to do next.
So we stepped into a conversation andin that conversation, Mike, I asked
her, okay, tell me what you currentlyare doing and what you love about it.
So she did, she was currently,uh, teaching but also, um, doing
some instructional coachingas a part of her, her duties.
Um.
I asked her, okay, based on your,you know, you have this new degree,
(33:05):
what's something that you think youmay want to do in addition to that?
And she was like, well, I'm thinkingabout, you know, the, in my school,
an assistant principal would belike the next thing that I could do
with that, with that degree area.
So I told her, okay, well tellme what you, what you would like
about that work and what youwouldn't like about that work.
And she did.
And I said, if, um.
(33:27):
And I'm coming back to that thingwe had talked about earlier.
I was like it, so if if moneywas off the table or feel fear of
failure was off the table, what'ssomething else you'd love to do?
And she was like, man, I would reallylove to expand more coaching with
teachers because it's only a part of mywork right now, but it's something that
I would just really love to do more ofbecause it just brings me so much joy
and I see how much it's helping them.
(33:48):
And so I was like,okay, well let's, let's.
Let's create some pathways, youknow, potentials for all three
of these things and see whichof them opens up doors for you.
And um, and this isn't somebodyI was gonna coach on an ongoing
basis, it was just a one time call.
So a couple of weeks later, um, sheactually lives in our community,
so she ran into my wife and she wastelling my wife, um, Hey, by the way,
(34:10):
I haven't called will, but, um, I.
Have just been chewing on these pathwaysand I just was, I couldn't get out of
this, this thought of how much more Iwould love to do instructional coaching.
So I went to my principal and just said,you know, I've got the potential now
to move on or do something differentor apply for these other positions,
but this has become such a passion.
Is there any way within the structurethat we currently have that I could
(34:32):
do more coaching with teachers?
And of course.
Because he's a leader that didn't wannalose a really great teacher, and he was
able to recognize the potential resources.
He's developed an entire new trajectoryfor her for next year where she's gonna
get to do a whole lot more teachercoaching than she was previously.
So I know that doesn't answer yourquestion directly, Mike, but I think
(34:55):
the first thing you have to askyourself is those, those same questions
that I ask her, what's somethingyou're currently doing that you enjoy
to do and would love to do more?
What's something that might be a,a second next best step for you?
Um, and something that she told mywife that I thought was funny too is
that she said the more she explored theoptions, the more she realized she didn't
really wanna be an assistant principal.
Like the things that were Well, andthat's what I was gonna ask you, right?
(35:16):
Like,
Dr. Mike Doughty (35:16):
how much of this thinking is, think about the stuff you
put off, think about the stuff you hatedoing about your current job, and then
think about how to do the stuff you like.
Will Parker (35:30):
Yes.
Dr. Mike Doughty (35:30):
Which sounds easy for people.
You know, I'm, I'm what, four yearsaway from retirement, so that,
that's easy for me to say, right?
Because I'm, I'm staring at a pension.
I can do whatever I want in four years.
But what about peoplewho are more mid-career?
Because that, that's the, that's likethe, the inflection point for so many
people because in order to make itworthwhile to make that transition to
(35:54):
being an administrator these days, youalmost have to go early in your career.
Otherwise it's not worth it.
It's not worth it to work anothertwo months out of the year and
not get paid that much more money.
Like how, so how do you, how do youkinda coach those folks who may feel
like they have, they, they have moreto, to lose or more to, you know, that's
(36:16):
holding them in the current situation.
Mm-hmm.
Will Parker (36:20):
Um, well, do you wanna do a quick practice together, Mike?
Dr. Mike Doughty (36:24):
You're killing me.
Yes.
Go.
Will Parker (36:27):
Okay.
I'm gonna, we're gonna do an abbreviatedversion, and this is a model that I,
I learned from, uh, uh, another coach.
Her name is, um, Sam Horn.
She's got a book called The Happiness Box.
I love to do this with myselfand with other leaders.
So, um, we'll do this for listeners,so you're gonna have to think out loud.
Okay.
So, um, we're gonna think in fourcategories because these four categories
(36:47):
are gonna be the, um, doing, notdoing, want to do and don't want to do.
Okay.
Are you ready?
Okay, so category one, doing,what are you doing right now in
work or life that you want to do?
You just love it?
Dr. Mike Doughty (36:59):
Uh, presenting, like learning new things and teaching
them to large groups of people.
Will Parker (37:08):
Okay.
I love that.
Dr. Mike Doughty (37:09):
Talking to interesting people and learning about what they do.
Will Parker (37:16):
Hmm.
Okay.
So you love to present, you love tolearn new things, you love to teach.
You love working with large groups.
What are some things, so category two thatyou're not doing but you want to be doing?
Hmm.
Or maybe you're not doingas much as you want to be,
Dr. Mike Doughty (37:35):
not doing, but want to be doing?
Well, I mean, is it just careerrelated or it can be life or work.
See, that's the thing.
I, I would, I would love to do more.
I. More things outdoors, more,more things that are physically
active that make my body feel good.
Will Parker (37:55):
Oh, I love that.
So you would love to spendmore time outdoors, physically,
ac just gimme outside.
Yep.
Let me, let me do thosethings that I love outside.
Awesome.
All right.
Category three.
What are you currently doingthat you don't want to be doing?
Dr. Mike Doughty (38:10):
Ugh.
Anything related to.
Details of day-to-day operations, email.
Mm-hmm.
HR stuff, budget.
Will Parker (38:21):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Mike Doughty (38:21):
Anything like that.
Things that we have to get competentat as administrators, but that
I would just prefer not to do.
Will Parker (38:30):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Calendars, all that stuff.
All that nonsense.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
And then category four,um, what are you not doing?
In your life and you'reglad you're not doing it.
Now, this may be something you used to doand you're so glad you no longer do it.
And like, for example, maybe youused to smoke and now you don't.
Dr. Mike Doughty (38:48):
Um, let's see.
Um, that's a good one.
Uh, you know, I, I work in an educationalservice agency and one of the things
that I really like about that isthat, you know, we don't have the same
interaction with a community or votersor things like that where I have other.
Folks that I have to respond toand work with, but not that piece.
(39:14):
Yeah.
And, and I, I, I don'tmiss student discipline.
I don't mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Miss employee discipline, likethings like that, that, ugh.
Will Parker (39:23):
So you're really glad that you're in a position where you can
still support the work, but you're notdealing with as much conflict as you did.
And especially when it comes in,and I was in AP for nine years,
I don't miss student discipline.
And so, you know, so that's somethingI always put down on my list.
So here's the, here's the thing.
So listeners, you may be takingmental notes for yourself.
When you think about those fourcategories, doing, not doing, want to
(39:44):
do, don't want to do, there's, there's a.
Yeah, there's a tension betweenyour not doing and don't want to do.
So, um, so in other words, youwould love to be able to spend
more time outdoors doing physicalactivities, being more active.
You would, you reallywish you were doing less?
(40:05):
Emails, HR, budgets, calendars,and those kinds of things too.
And here's what I've discovered isthat, um, and this doesn't always
work 'cause because when you'recomparing life and work, the,
it's not always in these tensions.
Don't always play on each other this way.
But in general, the more thingsyou can get off of that three, that
things I wish I was no longer doing,the more it frees you up to be able
(40:29):
to start doing things you want to.
And so let me take that back to my yearsas a principal when I recognize that like.
There's no way I can actually beout in classrooms and be observing
teachers unless I can train someoneelse to manage those phone calls that
are coming in or to be my tier one,tier two responders to these things
(40:49):
that I don't need to be answering.
I can train somebody elseto answer those things.
Once I began to train other peopleto do that for me, then it freed me
up to do the things only I could do.
But even in the work I'm doing now, likeconsulting full-time, um, I realized like.
I was no longer wanting to edit myown podcast or manage my own calendar
all the time, or do my own invoicing.
(41:10):
So I hired an assistant and trainedher to begin to do those things for
me and meet with me on a regular basisto kind of walk me through the things
that I should only be working on soshe could handle the things that.
She could do to free me up to domore of the things only I can do.
So there's a tension in allthese questions, Mike, which I
think we can all regularly visit.
(41:31):
'cause I do this practiceto myself every year.
Um, and I think when, when we visitthose practices over time, it becomes
a little more obvious to us where I canbegin to make some movement or where
I can begin to tweak things, um, togive myself permission to do more of
the things that I want to be doing.
So I. I dunno if that's helpful,but I, I just wanna understand.
(41:51):
Oh yeah,
Dr. Mike Doughty (41:51):
that was great.
I love, well, I, you know, I am my ownfavorite topic, so I appreciate that.
Well, well, this has been, I, wemight be sensitive to your time.
This has been just a, a fantasticconversation and I, I hope, I
hope more folks pick up your bookand, and, and reflect on all,
all of these questions and all 20chapters and, you know, just, it is.
(42:15):
It is kind of cool to, to think biggerabout what you're doing because I
think we get so, so mired in theday-to-day stuff that we forget there.
There's a lot out there.
I.
Will Parker (42:27):
There is.
Um, and you guys are so generous.
Thank you.
And I know in the book, Jenn,you mentioned this at the
top of the conversation, thatI do tell a lot of stories.
I'm a storyteller.
Um, but I tried to make it both somethingthat was conversational because these
are the kinds of conversations that, um.
It's usually when you're walking alongsidea friend that you'll open up and say, you
(42:49):
know, this has really been on my mind, soI wanted to invite readers to trust me.
Um, and then I want, but I also wantedto just share, just like you and I
did, mark, Mike, some of those thingsthat, that I. I regularly practice as
reflective tools or ideas or mapping.
I do a whole chapter on backward mapping.
I share my own resume.
Just all the things that, that becomepieces of that as you're planning and
(43:12):
thinking ahead, because, um, if I couldhelp one person to just feel like they've
given themselves permission to dreamand inquire and, uh, and allow yourself
to have the joy you did as a kid whenyou're discovering something new, um,
give yourself permission to have that joy.
Now you're, um, you'renever too old to, to.
It's a delight in the potentialpathways in front of us.
Jenn David-Lang (43:35):
We invite everyone to walk alongside Will as you read his book,
whose permission are you waiting for aneducator's guide to doing what you love.
We'll put some, um, contactinformation in the show notes
so you know where to find will.
And thank you so much for taking the time.
It really has been so great to,uh, see you and talk to you.
Thank
Dr. Mike Doughty (43:53):
you guys.
Thanks for listening to this episode ofThe School Leadership Show, a podcast for
aspiring and practicing school leaders.
Send your comments, questions, and showideas to me, mike@schoolleadershipshow.com
and please consider rating thepodcast and iTunes and leaving a
comment and definitely pass theshow along to your colleagues.
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