In this premiere episode, Cass Dowding speaks with Hayden Schueler, who went from studying music composition at the Victorian College of Arts to running Vereya Gardening in the Dandenong Ranges. His story comes full circle, now living just over the fence from his childhood home, on land where he once played as a boy collecting chestnuts and climbing trees.
In this conversation, Cass and Hayden discuss:
- His journey from a "closeted gardener" while studying music to embracing gardening as a career
- The chestnut trees and camellias that connect him to childhood memories
- How following your passion sometimes means embracing an unexpected path
- His journey through Europe visiting centuries-old topiary gardens planted in the 1600s
- The fascinating differences between Japanese topiary and European formal shapes
- What it means to maintain gardens that hold decades of memories for their owners
- How specific plants trigger powerful childhood memories through both sight and scent
- Why gardens are never truly "finished" ... only constantly evolving
If you've ever found meaning in a particular plant, felt connected to a childhood garden, or simply believe that gardens are more than just collections of plants, this conversation is a perfect place to start.
Follow Hayden on Instagram @vereyagardening
Read show notes about the guests and access the full transcript by clicking here or visiting thesentimentalgardener.com/podcasts
Follow Cass on Instagram, Facebook, or Threads — @the_sentimental_gardener. Links to social pages and more are available at bio.site/thesentimentalgardener.Music written and performed by Hayden Schueler from @vereyagardening
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to The SentimentalGardener podcast.
(00:02):
I'm Cass Dowding, and while this isa gardening podcast, but we don't
just focus on tips and advice.
Instead, we talk about the memoriesand personal stories behind the plants
people love and the gardens they create.
You know, some gardens we visitonce and remember for a lifetime.
Others are with us from thestart - we don't really visit them.
(00:27):
We just... grow up inside them.
That's something my guesttoday knows so well.
Hayden Schueler runs Vereya Gardening inthe Dandenong Ranges, and when we talk
about the connection to place - thisis someone who now lives just over the
fence from the house he grew up in.
On land that once was an empty hydrangeafarm where he played as a child,
(00:52):
collecting chestnuts and climbing trees.
His story feels like one of thoseperfectly circular garden paths that
lead you right back to where you began.
Today, Hayden tends gardens across thehills - which is quite the plot twist
from his days at the Victorian Collegeof the Arts studying music composition.
(01:13):
When he talks about this journey,there's this beautiful honesty
to it." “My life just got writtenfor me.” he shares in one part.
And I should mention - Hayden hasn'tcompletely left his musical roots behind.
At the end of our conversation today,keep listening as he plays the theme
music he composed specially forthis podcast on his grand piano at
(01:38):
home - a moment where his two worldsof gardening and music intertwine.
So, welcome to the very firstepisode of the Sentimental Gardener
podcast, and a big welcome tomy guest today Hayden Schueler.
So Hayden, you run your own business doinggardening, and maintenance, and you're
based up here in the Dandenong Ranges.
(01:59):
And did you grow up herein the Dandenong Ranges?
I grew up, actually, in the housebehind where I live currently,
so I haven't moved very far.
So . So yeah, you'veliterally moved over the fence.
Basically.
Moved over the fence.
Yeah, I did live in a couple ofplaces before landing here, but
yeah, I've been sort of where I amfor probably close to 10 years now.
(02:21):
And yeah, I love the areaand love working up here.
It is a beautiful spot, isn't it?
Could you share some of yourearly memories of gardens
up here in the Dandenongs?
When I think about gardens growing up,I guess I think about gardens at home.
So my parents' garden, they've gotquite a nice garden and it's one of
(02:43):
those properties that, you know, theybought the house because of the garden.
And I think a, a lot ofproperties up here are like that.
People, people buy up here for, for thegardens, and the house is just, it's
where they live, but the garden is what
really makes it so they had a nice gardenand it was great to grow up running round
and playing amuck in, in that garden.
(03:06):
Lots of, you know, differentrooms and areas and, and funnily
enough, the property that I'mat now was just an empty block.
Wow.
But there was no, there wasno house here or anything.
There wasn't even a driveway on it.
It was just a, it usedto be a hydrangea farm.
Oh, right.
And, you know, years and yearsand years ago and, you know, we
(03:26):
used to jump the fence and sortof play in this property as well.
So it's funny that I'm now livinghere and it, and it does feel a bit
sentimental, this place because of that.
And we've got two big chestnut trees.
And Mum and dad also have a chestnut tree.
And when I was a kid I usedto, you know, collect all the
chestnuts, you know, jump over here.
(03:46):
'cause no, no one else was here, you know?
So jump the fence,collect all the chestnuts.
And you know, I'm stillcollecting the chestnuts.
Yeah.
I saw recently you were posting aboutdifferent ways to cook them and Yeah.
That's so amazing.
It's a big tree.
I saw it as I drove up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we've got one at thefront, one at the back.
We have to, it's hard to get chestnutsnow 'cause of the, uh, cockatoos.
(04:10):
Mm-hmm.
Which just decimate them.
They just come in flocks andthey never used to be that bad.
Like, you know, when I was growing up,even when I first moved here, I. The back
chestnut tree never got touched by thecockatoos, and we used to get buckets
and buckets and buckets of chestnuts.
Mm.
And now it's only the very low branchesthat I can somehow, you know, protect
(04:33):
and they're the last to get eaten.
Last year we got none at all,and this year we got a some.
None.
We got, yeah, none.
Wow.
None.
They're very hungry.
Cockatoos.
That's fascinating that, yeah, youhave memories of being on this property
as a kid, but now also as an adult.
And do you ever have that experience?
Like you see something as an adult andyou go, oh, it's actually not as big.
(04:55):
Like did it feel bigger, the spaceas a kid or it was a hydrangea farm?
It's all changed or,
yeah, it's all completely changed.
'cause there was so muchrubbish on this block.
Mm, okay.
It was just.
Yes, it used to be a hydrangea farm, butover the years it had just become derelict
and full of blackberries and sycamoresand random trees and piles of rubbish.
(05:17):
And it was, it was, it was wild.
Yeah.
I think when the people, peoplebefore us bought the block, I. They
would've just got a bobcat in andjust kind of cleared heaps of it.
So your parents' garden, you weresaying, had lots of rooms in it?
Mm. And were they quite hands-onin the garden, like with
shaping it and designing it?
Or was it quite established?
(05:37):
Like what sort of thingsdid they add to it?
It was quite established already.
Apparently it was first established by,um, I can't remember the person's name.
Someone who ran the FernyCreek Horticultural Society.
You know, way back in the day.
Like in the 1960s.
And so it's established with,you know, really nice, you know,
camelias and azaleas and just,just beautiful trees and areas.
(05:58):
It was really well landscaped and,and, and thought out, you know,
old stone walls and sort of thing.
So, yeah.
Yeah, it was really
nice.
So in terms of what Mum and dad sortof put in, probably not a huge amount,
but it was already pretty special.
Yeah.
They just sort of maintained it, you know?
So growing up, I probably didn't dotoo much to help with the maintenance.
(06:21):
Maybe I'd mow the lawnsometimes or that sort of thing.
For some reason pruningand shaping fascinated me
when I was really young.
And I, I don't know what it was, butfor some reason I just had this urge
to get some shears and just cut.
Yeah.
That's so funny, isn't it?
How did you go?
(06:42):
What were you, were they nice and curvedand uniform or were you just out there?
I can't remember.
I was really young.
I was really young.
But it was, but, butI found it really fun.
Oh, you know, I found it fun.
Yeah.
And I remember asking mum ifI could prune the hydrangeas.
And.
It was, you know, winterand she thought, great.
Yeah.
Go out and prune the hydrangeas.
(07:03):
But I was really young and I didn'tknow what the hydrangeas were.
Okay.
I just called, it ended up being Azaleas.
I wanted to prune, but Ijust called them hydrangeas.
So I got out to the shed and gotthe shears and just started like
trimming all the azaleas, whichwere, you know, all about to flower.
Yeah.
And mum came out and was ashorrified at what I'd done.
Oh no.
Oh, what a funny story.
Yeah.
But I think I really enjoyed it.
(07:24):
Yeah.
So you found your calling very early on.
Yeah.
Isn't that fascinating?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That it was just something about them.
And so going from like, growingup surrounded by gardens, did that
lead you to go and wanna like,study gardens or work in gardens?
Like what's that transition between,yeah, being a kid up here in the
(07:44):
Dandenongs and then you know, runningyour own gardening business now?
When I was a teenager, I. I startedjust working in people's gardens.
Up on the hill.
Um, just, you know, friends, people weknew, um, who just needed a bit of a hand
in the garden because all the gardensare quite large up here and everyone
(08:05):
needs a bit of help from time to time.
Yeah.
When I was probably 15 or 14, even,just started just helping people in the
garden just for a bit of money I guess.
I saw garden work as you know.
As a way to make money when I was younger,
Did you have any formal training inhorticulture or managing gardens?
(08:25):
So, because of the area I live in andhow long I've been just gardening for.
I never went and did a, you know, formaltraining and one of the reasons was
because I had just done a music degree.
And I was working gardeningon the side of that.
I just had work already.
Yeah.
(08:45):
And once I finished my musicdegree, I didn't really feel like
going and doing another course.
I, I did think about it and it, I justcouldn't bring myself to, you know,
doing more assignments and essaysand just the thought of it just.
I think I was done.
I went straight from school to uni andby that time I was just done with that.
(09:07):
For now, it's not to say that oneday I might do something like that.
If I get the time or even, youknow, slightly different, like
maybe in design or you know,just, just some sort of avenue.
That could be a possibility for me oneday, but I just had work up here and I've
learned from my customers, I've learnfrom just being curious about things and
(09:28):
researching and if it's something, I don'tknow, I just look it up straight away.
I'm always looking up plantsand you know, I'm interested in
different ways of doing things.
So I think if you're just curious, youjust sort of learn as you go and be
respectful to people in their gardens.
And yeah, you can't gotoo wrong if you're.
Interested enough.
So you've studied a music degree?
(09:51):
So I studied musiccomposition Uhhuh at VCA,
which is quite a, you know,prestigious course really, isn't it?
Yeah.
At time you've gotta be ableto lots of things at time.
It was hard to get into.
Yeah.
There was only seven of us thatgot, they got in that year.
And that was the last yearthey ran that course yeah.
By the time we got to third year,you know, there was no one below us.
We were the last, and then after thatit transitioned to Melbourne Uni.
(10:11):
Okay.
After that.
So yeah, it was, and I was very.
I worked hard to get into thatcourse because I really wanted
to, and I wanted to write music.
I wanted to be in bands and write songs.
I liked writing orchestral music too.
I wanted to write for films anddocumentaries and all this sort of thing.
And after uni, that wassomething that I tried to do.
(10:35):
But it is very hard and competitive,and to be honest, the gardening
business has picked up so much quicker.
Once I had more time for gardening, I justgot so much more work, I was just in it.
Mm-hmm.
It's like, yeah, my, my life just gotwritten, written for me in, and then
in that Mument it just happened and itfelt really wrong at the time because
(11:01):
my whole life I was doing music and thatwas something that I thought that was
what I was destined to do and the factI was spending so much time gardening
and also really enjoying it felt wrong.
And I, I remember this Mument,I just, I did just feel like I
(11:22):
called myself a closet gardener
because I just had this pull between,you know, music and gardening and like
everyone thought I was a musician, but Ireally, secretly, I just loved gardening.
That's so funny.
Hayden, the closet gardener.
You've been really successfulin it, haven't you?
(11:44):
Like Yeah, but I get that,um, I get that tension.
'cause I grew up thinking Iwas destined to be a ballerina.
And like, you know, spent six days aweek dancing and whole my whole life.
And then an injury cut that short.
But also it's that the prestigious of onlya couple ever make it to make it a career.
(12:06):
And you spend your whole adolescenceor life and I suppose passion following
something and then, yeah, it doesn't, likeyou said, it gets written for you almost.
Yeah.
And there is that point, but it'sawesome that you had something that
you were just as passionate about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
I'm so happy that that'slike, worked out for you.
Yeah.
I think that surprised me how muchI, you know, enjoyed, um, gardening.
(12:30):
I think a big part of it toowas I, I like physical work.
Mm-hmm.
And I like being outsideand I like doing things.
I feel, I feel it's better formy body to be, to be working than
being, you know, being insideand sitting down all the time.
Yeah.
You know, I could never do an office job.
Yeah.
That just really appealed to me.
So, and you know, there's a lot ofmusicians that do enjoy gardening.
(12:56):
Mm-hmm.
And there's lot of musiciansthat don't enjoy gardening too.
And I think if you're inclined toenjoy physical work or I think if
you're a gardener, you, you, um.
Sorry.
If you're a musician, youquite like gardening as well.
Mm.
I feel like there is a bit of a, um,something that draws both fields together.
(13:18):
Mm. I've recently discovered ahorticulture, horticulturist from the UK
called Nigel Dunnett, and he is, I thinka professor at Sheffield University.
And what I loved about his booksor the writing I've read is how he
describes, he feels that gardensare an immersive experience.
How being in it makes you feel.
(13:40):
And that's how I see, you know,the experience of being in
a garden as well personally.
And I've heard a lot of otherpeople's stopiaryes and yeah.
How have you, through your, um,life of creativity and composing,
and how have you seen that outworkthrough your work in gardens?
(14:01):
So when I was at VCA, there was anad advertisement for a gardener at
a garden in Brighton, and I thoughtit was a really weird place to look
for a gardener at an arts college.
You know, why not ask at Burnley, or,you know, it's, it's pretty strange.
Anyway, I was pretty sure thatI was one of the only people
(14:23):
there that was gardening, so Ithought that ad must be for me.
Yeah.
So I, you know, called them upand I ended up, I ended up working
at this garden and ended up beingan amazing garden in Brighton.
It was over an acre.
It was, you know, full of hedgesand topiary and perennial gardens
and all these interesting designsthat I hadn't really seen before
(14:48):
because it was very different to thegardens up in the Dandenong ranges.
It turns out that this lady, she didn'twant a gardener, she wanted an artist.
She wanted someone who not necessarilyknew a huge amount about gardening, but
she, she was willing to train and sortof direct to how she wanted things.
(15:11):
So if I didn't do music and art, then,you know, I wouldn't have gotten that job.
I wouldn't have found out about it.
And I wouldn't have learnedeverything that I learned at that job.
And I probably may noteven be where I am today.
So it's, it's funny just how everything,you know, one thing leads to another.
(15:34):
How you just have to take littleopportunities when they come along.
That next step.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She wanted an artist.
She, she, you know, reallyenjoyed art in the garden, and she
taught me a lot about gardening.
Which was really, reallyvaluable for me at the time.
You know, just about how to pruneand how to fertilise, and just all
(15:57):
those gardening things that I hadn'tlearn before, because, you know, up
on the hill it's quite, it's quitelaborous, so it's less looking after
plants and more just maintenance.
Like big gardens up here, you know,dealing with lots of leaves, lots of
blackberries, lots, you know, mowingand slashing and you know, there's,
(16:17):
there's lots of other things thatmaybe you don't get down in Brighton.
So it was, it was a very differentexperience, but it was very valuable.
It sounds like it's quite a craftthat you learn too, isn't it?
You said there's the maintenance,but then there's also the
nurturing, caring for plants.
In the industry, from your experience,is there still that train of thought
(16:39):
of like, we're just here and wejust do the hedges and we just mow,
whatever, like needs to be done?
Yeah, I think you get awhole range, um, up here.
Which is why I like working up here somuch 'cause the gardens are so varied.
You do get some of thosereally nice manicured gardens.
And then you also just get realtraditional hills kind of bushy gardens.
(17:00):
And I like working in both of them.
You know, we have a team now.
Yeah.
And it's great to be able towork in all sorts of gardens.
We don't tend to discriminate too muchbased on what the garden looks like.
Because yeah, we do enjoy, youknow, working on both sides,
(17:20):
but I think you're right.
I think you know, some, like you sayin the industry, some people would
be more, just about maintenance.
And then some people do look abit more creatively as well.
Yeah.
And I like to look a bitmore creatively where I can.
Yeah.
Especially if the, you know,customer allows us to get a
bit creative in the garden.
That's always really nice, whereassome people are probably a bit more
(17:43):
strict about what we would do in theirgarden, or they like to oversee it,
or they like to make sure we're justdoing the things that they want to do.
And in those Muments, you justsort of do as you're told.
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that beforebecause just being a home gardener, you
just go and you do what needs to be doneor you just accept what you can't do.
But I suppose if you're paying forsomeone, there's that expectation
(18:06):
of, you know, your client wouldhave the expectation of, this
is what I wanna achieve andthis is like how it should look.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
That must be hard, like juggling that.
Yeah.
Well, what's hard is thateveryone's different.
Okay.
So you have to kind of know how people,want their gardens looked after.
And some people have different ideason what's a weed and what's not a weed.
(18:27):
What gets kept in the garden, whatdoesn't get kept in the garden.
Some people want thingspruned a certain way.
Some people don't want somethingtouched, and you just have to know all
these, and sometimes you make mistakes.
You just learn from that.
And you know, we have jobnotes on every single job.
And if there's anything specific likethat, I always make sure those are
on the job notes because when theguys go there, they need to know not
(18:50):
to pull out the montbresia 'causethat customer likes the montbresia.
You know, that sort of thing.
Yeah,
yeah.
Oh, fascinating.
So people who pay to have gardenmaintenance services, I've
recently become one of thosepeople in the last few years.
Because you've come, this is how we met.
Um, you've come and, you know, youtrimmed the hedge, we have this big large
(19:11):
pittosporum hedge at the back of ourhouse, and I naively at the time thought
we like, you know, I've tried to maintainit myself, but it is a very tall hedge.
We don't have the right equipment.
I don't think I really understood thevalue of investing in getting someone
to help with the maintenance at home.
(19:33):
What things have you heard backfrom your customers about the value
that you provide as, um, someonewho cares for people's gardens?
Yeah, so I. This one customer I do.
You know, she's openly saidthat if we weren't maintaining
a garden that she would sell.
Oh, wow.
You know?
Yeah.
She would, she would sell, you know,she's an old, older lady and, and there's
(19:56):
probably, there's probably a couple likethat, to be honest, you know, because
they can't do it all themselves anymore.
So if they didn't have us coming into help with their garden and maintain
it , and they would have to downsize.
And sometimes that's a hard thingto do when it's a, you know,
it's a family home and they'vebeen there for 50 years, I think.
(20:18):
I, I know, I know what you mean.
Like there's, um, we are about tostart, um, a new job in Sherbrooke,
and I was talking to her about itbecause she's done it herself forever.
And we were talking about how it mustfeel a little bit daunting getting a
garden maintenance person to come inand, and help with the garden when
(20:41):
they've done it themselves for forever.
And yeah, it was a niceconversation actually.
But she's gonna reallyvalue having us come in.
Mm. Because it means that they can dowhat they want to do in the garden,
and we can do maybe some of the thingsthat they don't wanna do so much.
And I think it, you know, frees up time.
(21:04):
It also inspires people to get intothe garden themselves a bit more too.
Right.
You know, if we've come in anddone a, a chunk of the garden.
It's actually inspiring for them to thengo out and do a bit more themselves.
Or some people only come out in thegarden when we are there to kind of
work alongside us, and if we didn'tgo then they probably wouldn't
(21:25):
really get out and do it that much.
Oh, that's awesome.
You know, they might walk around thegarden and see what we're doing or
just have discussions about the garden.
And talk about the plants and,yeah, I think the value is different
for everybody, but for sure,some people extremely value it.
Yeah.
Because I know, you know, as you getolder, and like for me, I've got a dodgy
shoulder, or it's, some people, it's theirback or you know able-bodied just as you
(21:48):
age, you aren't as able bodied and mobile.
I mean, gardening helps with that,but it might not even be age.
It might be, you know, disabilityand or, you know, like, if
you're working full time.
Some people I've heard, um, friendsof mine, they're like, I don't wanna
be outside in the garden all weekend.
Like I love gardens.
Yeah.
But yeah, that maintaining ityourself can be quite overwhelming.
(22:11):
And then if you miss a week, thenthe weeds keep growing and then
it gets even more overwhelming.
So yeah.
I really see the benefit of the servicethat people like yourself provide and
how awesome that people get even moreinspired to get out when you know you've
done such a, a large chunk of what you do.
I know it's actually inspiring for mewhen I see your posts on Instagram and
(22:34):
when you've done their hedges or you'relike, it's, this is what we're working
on this week, and I'm like, oh, I betterget out and do mine because it's so good
to have those visual reminders, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's really cool.
Talking about hedges and, andunderstanding now that that's something
you loved in childhood -I saw recentlyyou went overseas on a really big trip.
(22:59):
It was around Europe, I think.
And you went to some amazingfamous gardens and some quite
intricate hedges and that.
Could you describe some of your?Experiences and the gardens you
visited over there and your inspiration.
Yeah, so we visited many gardensthrough England and, uh, France mainly.
And Italy a bit too.
(23:19):
We saw some gardens that were just,you know, been on my bucket list to see
forever, which was, yeah, just amazing.
Amazing.
Because I wanted tosee really old gardens.
I wanted to see old hedgesand old topiary, like.
Hundreds of years old.
Oh, wow.
You know that youcouldn't really get here.
(23:39):
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, I was just.
Yeah.
Amazed at how, how beautiful theywere and just the age of some of
these hedges was just incredible.
How old would they have been,like, older than Australia?
Like, you know, since itwas founded or something?
Yeah, it was some of the, like theu um, hedges and, you know, large
(24:00):
topiary shapes, some of them wereplanted in the late 16 hundreds.
Yeah.
And they're still there.
They're still there still beingmaintained into the shape.
They're still Yep, yep.
And they get trimmed with, you know,they get up there with cherry pickers and
that 'cause because they're very large.
Mm.
They're very, very, very big.
So, yeah, that was fascinating.
Really, really fascinating.
I learnt, I really learnt howthe Australian conditions are.
(24:25):
Right.
I think when I was over there.
Because being over there in summer was somuch different to being here in summer.
And it was, I've, I've, I've always heardthat the Australian conditions are tough.
Mm.
For the gardens and the plants.
But when you experience it, and the, thecontrast 'cause a lot of what we plant
(24:47):
here, you know, is some of the same plantsthat you, you'd have over there as well.
And yeah, just thatdifference was quite amazing.
And you sort of understand whysometimes over here some of the
plants struggle and they get sunburnand they, they wilt and some die
and it's completely understandable.
Because you'd have a day here that's40 degrees and the next day it's 20.
(25:11):
Yeah.
And then you get strong winds and, yeah.
All the rest of it.
It is, it is much harsher.
Whereas over there the, I dunno, justthe whole, the temperature was just much
more stable and it just, it just feltlike the plants were so much happier.
You could feel that while you'rearound them, them, you just feel it.
(25:31):
You can, I suppose you observeit too, because what you are
used to seeing over here.
Yeah.
And then looking at the differenceand going, is that the same plant?
And we do have quiteextremes now, don't we?
Now weather patterns,especially this year.
Yeah.
I know with some of mine as well.
Like you look at them and you'relike, oh, I'm not looking after you.
But then you think about how the weather'sbeen and you're like, I don't know
(25:52):
that I could have done in the thing.
Yeah, that's right.
To stop
them.
They're just reacting to theirenvironment, aren't they?
Yep.
Yep.
And the environment is massive.
Like even if you water very regularly,it doesn't beat just having rain.
You know, even if you just water,if you have just a few days of nice
rain it, you just see the difference.
(26:14):
It's something else, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's something else.
Yeah.
Everyone always comments online,you know, as soon as there's been
rain, they're like, oh my gosh,look at the garden that just,
yeah.
Is so much more lush and,yeah, that's so true.
Yeah.
But yeah, overseas I just, yeah,loved all the hedges and topiary and
all the plants that they use and.
It was, um, it was inspiring, but at thesame time, a lot of what I was looking at
(26:38):
was quite large-scale chateaus and, youknow, it's, it's probably not something
that I could put in my own garden.
And you know, they often have like10 full-time gardeners working
on these sort of properties.
So it's, it is, it is pretty next level.
But it was, it was fascinating to see.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially the history andhow long it's been kept for.
(27:01):
France is quite, they have thattraditional, very sharp type of topiary,
don't they like edging and, yeah.
Yes.
But one of my favorite gardens was,I think it was Chateau de la Ballue.
What I liked about that, itwas, there was a, a contrast.
So you had, you had areas of that, youknow, those classic French parterre.
All the, you know, symmetry andthat, but they also had areas which
(27:25):
were a little bit more like uphere, had lots of large trees and
you know, beautiful underplantings
.And it still had topiary kind of mixed in with it, but it felt a
bit more lush and a bit more mixed.
And I really, really liked that.
And even behind the French parterrewas all these Niwaki Japanese
(27:45):
style pines, which they get pruned.
And just the contrast between that.
And the French parterre was, thatwas, that was really interesting.
What's the difference betweenJapanese topiary and European topiary?
So Japanese, they oftenwill prune in layers.
(28:08):
And they kind of make, make itlook like a organic tree still.
Okay.
It's pruned.
It's kind of looks a bit more natural.
Whereas European topiary is quite, youknow, you might get the perfect sphere
or the, the, the square or cone shapes,the cubes, the cones, whatever you like.
(28:29):
You know, they're quite, um,symmetric yeah, in the way they prune.
Whereas, it's a bit moreorganic in, in Japan.
And that's what I, I, I likethat style and I try and bring
that into gardens as well.
You know, I don't like trying tocreate just the perfect sphere.
I would always like a bit more of amushroomy shape or like a flatter top.
(28:52):
That's a great way to describe it.
I, I just find it just lookssomehow more natural and just flows
through the garden a bit more.
Where I find like a perfect sphereis a bit more, I don't know, it just
doesn't look as natural and yeahdoesn't flow in the garden as much.
You've got, you've got someof that Japanese topiary in
(29:13):
your front yard, don't you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So I've trained them for about 10 years.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, so they were justa scraggly row of bushes.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, they're Luma, Luma Myrtles.
And yeah, it's taken me ages to, youknow, prune them back and, you know,
selectively take out branches that weremaybe competing with the other ones.
So you sort of thin them outso each little layer has space.
(29:36):
And then you can just keeppruning and trimming and creating
the shapes as they evolve.
And the good thing is you cancut them back really hard and
they still grow back again.
So they're the perfectspecimen to do it on.
But yeah, it's been about 10years in, in the, in the making
and they look fabulous.
They do, but they're always evolving.
That's the, the best thing about,about them and about topiary in
(29:58):
general, is it's never finished.
Nothing's ever finished.
There's always a little layer thatyou're working on or letting something
grow or training something in a certainway, maybe with, you know, rope just
to pull, pull, um, branches away fromother ones or that sort of thing.
So it's always a work in progress and itevolves over time and it ages over time.
(30:18):
a
Yes.
Talking about your garden, is there asentimental plant here at home that when
you see it, it reminds you of a specialmemory or has special meaning to it?
Well, this block is quite new reallybecause it got sort of flattened you know,
after it was you know, but the remainingthings here, of course, the chestnuts.
(30:39):
So I'd say they're quite sentimentalgiven what we spoke about before.
Yeah.
I find the, um, camellias are verysentimental, especially the sasanquas when
they flower and they, the scent of them.
I find that nostalgic for some reason.
I can't really think back why.
(31:00):
I think it's just growing upwith them because they were
everywhere at Mum and Dad's.
Just the scent of the Quas.
I just love it and itjust reminds me of Autumn.
It reminds me of cominginto winter, you know?
It's something really freshon the other side of summer.
It reminds me of, yeah,the change of seasons.
(31:21):
I'd say that's a very sentimental scent.
Very sentimental plant.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love how it's the scent withthe plant that reminds you.
Yeah.
It's not just the visual.
That's so awesome.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I used to climb them,you know, as a kid as well.
You know, maybe that's what it is.
I used to climb them and get up inthem 'cause I liked climbing trees.
(31:42):
Yeah.
You know?
That's so good.
I love that.
Thinking of home gardens as someonewho's a home gardener, and for those
of us maintaining our own gardens athome, what's one technique that you
think more home gardeners should adopt?
So if you're talking practically,I would like to see more home
(32:06):
gardeners mow their lawns regularly.
I love it!
And whipper snip the edges.
Oh yes, tell us more.
Especially those that have Kikuyu grass.
(32:26):
Because that just is just rampantand you just see that all over the
suburbs, just getting up into plantsand trees and gardens and up power
poles and all this sort of thing.
I think if everyone put a bit more effortinto controlling that grass, I think that
would be a really good thing for society.
Talking more holistically, Ithink everyone should try and
(32:49):
grow some sort of food for theirkitchen, and it's not that hard.
To even just to grow some herbs.
I feel like herbs are so expensive to buy.
Mm-hmm.
When you go and buy herbsrealise, youjust, it's actually crazy when you realize
how easy it is to grow herbs yourself.
(33:10):
You will think, why have I beenbuying herbs all this time?
Yeah.
It's like $5 and you getthree tiny little shoots.
Exactly.
And you use one stem of it in the mealand the rest of it just dries out in
the fridge and then it's in the bin.
It's so true.
So I feel like everyone shouldat least just grow some herbs.
Oh, I'm with you on that one.
Yep.
(33:31):
Yeah.
Rosemary, thyme.
Par, parsley.
Parsley.
They tend to just sort ofkick along for a long time.
It's worth it.
And they can grow in pots too.
They can grow in pots.
Yeah.
Which is what I love.
You don't have to have a, a spotthat's, you know, you just chuck 'em in
some pots, put them at the back door.
Yep.
Collect the seeds in autumnor when they go to seed.
(33:51):
Yep.
And then just keep the process going.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I love it.
Or sometimes they'lljust self seed as well.
You don't even have to worry,you know, parley, I'll just
probably pop up themselves anyway.
And I think putting them close toyour kitchen is, is the way to go.
I've seen some properties withveggie gardens, which are ages away
from their house, and I just thinkthere's no way they're going out
there to collect a bit of rosemary.
(34:13):
They'll just go without or whatever.
Trying to bring food close to yourkitchen, veggie gardens, planter
boxes, whatever close to the kitchenis, um, yeah, it's really beneficial.
It'll change your
life in cooking.
Yeah, it will.
Well, I've got some quick-firequestions okay to close us off with.
First one (34:34):
hand shears or power tools, what do you prefer?
Pick one.
Okay.
If I had to pick one for me.
I used to always only use hand shears.
Because I loved hand shears andespecially good quality ones.
(34:57):
I've got a lot of Japanese.
Hand shears.
And when I first startedgardening, that's all I use.
And I used to do some pretty bighedges just with hand shears.
And I loved the finish because they trimso they, they cut so clean and the finish
on the hedge is something different.
(35:19):
It's really, really clean.
All the leaves are just cut nicely.
And these days we use a lotmore power tools and you know,
it's obviously, it's quicker.
And more productive in the garden.
But you do notice the difference?
If, if, if you actually made me pickone that I was going to use at home
(35:39):
forever, I would, I would pick handshares because I've got lots of nice
hand shares that I couldn't live without.
I.
I think that's the key, isn't it?
The really good quality.
Yeah.
Yes.
And looking after them.
Yes.
You have to look after themand get some really good ones.
Yeah.
And not leave them out inthe garden like I always did
. Okay.
All right.
(36:00):
Is there a garden somewhere in the worldthat you're still hoping to go and visit?
The Adachi Museum in Japan?
I would love to visit.
I have been to Japan, butI didn't quite get there.
It was a little bit off the beat.
That is just, yeah.
That's stunning.
The garden is like.
It's like a gallery, so you can view thegarden from inside a building Oh wow.
(36:22):
With big windows.
And each window is like a, pieceof art, you know, on your wall.
Oh, I love it.
And I would love to visit that, youknow, beautiful, large azalea blobs.
Love it.
Yeah,
That sounds great.
I'll have to look that one up.
Okay, in one word or sentence,how does your garden make you
(36:44):
feel when you're out in it?
I find it peaceful and meditativewhen I can get out there and
actually just poke around the garden.
And there's not oftenenough time for that.
But when you get into that head spaceof just being in the garden, just,
(37:05):
just doing some simple things even.
It is really nice and a nicedistraction from the busyness
of, you know, everything we do.
So when you're out in your garden,do you have, are you a podcast, music
or no headphones-on type of person?
Well, probably two or three yearsago, I would've just been nothing.
You know, I, I didn't have any sound.
(37:27):
But now I've discovered, um, apple AirPods
and the noise cancellingones, and I, I do love them.
I must say they're great fordampening the sound of uh, you know,
your electric tools and that andyeah, I like to listen to music.
(37:47):
I also like to listen to podcasts, justdepends how I'm feeling on the day.
Yeah.
Couldn't pick one or the other.
I'd listen to both.
Okay.
Awesome.
And lastly, one person you'dlove to have a cuppa with and
hear their garden stories.
Well, I'd like to have a cuppawith Jake Hobson from, um, England.
So he's the founder of Niwaki, um, whoI used, well still do, but buy a lot
(38:12):
of garden tools from, he's, probably 10years ago, or probably more actually,
but I got his book, which was The Art ofCreative Pruning, and that was one of the
things that got me into particularly theJapanese style of pruning and shaping.
And when I found his store andstarted buying all his tools,
that really changed my life.
(38:32):
So I definitely owe a lot to him.
I have visited Niwaki in the uk,but I haven't met Jake Hobson.
So maybe one day I wouldlike to, maybe day.
Yeah.
And have a cuppa.
Sounds good.
Awesome.
Well, Hayden, thank you so much forbeing, this is officially the first
podcast for the Sentimental Gardener.
(38:53):
Great.
And there's actually something we haven'thad a chat about, but it's a special
surprise and that you actually havewritten the theme music for this podcast.
Yep.
So you're going to play for us.
And I just wanna say it's uh, just beensuch an honour to have you create that
music for me and I think it just, fillsYeah, is lovely to see that whole circle
(39:17):
of, um, you know, tying back in into thegardening and the music and it literally
fill me with joy every time I hear it.
So thank you so much for that gift.
(51:44):
Thank you so much for joiningme and listening today.
I'm reminded of what Hayden said aboutJapanese-style pruning - how it's never
truly finished, but always evolving.
Our life stories workthe same way, don't they?
We prune here, shape there, and somehowfind ourselves creating something both
intentional and wonderfully unexpected.
(52:05):
If you enjoyed this podcast, considersubscribing so you don’t the new episodes.
And until next time, mayyour garden—whatever form it
takes—continue to nurture thestories that matter most to you.
Welcome to The SentimentalGardener podcast.
(00:02):
I'm Cass Dowding, and while this isa gardening podcast, but we don't
just focus on tips and advice.
Instead, we talk about the memoriesand personal stories behind the plants
people love and the gardens they create.
You know, some gardens we visitonce and remember for a lifetime.
Others are with us from thestart - we don't really visit them.
(00:27):
We just... grow up inside them.
That's something my guesttoday knows so well.
Hayden Schueler runs Vereya Gardening inthe Dandenong Ranges, and when we talk
about the connection to place - thisis someone who now lives just over the
fence from the house he grew up in.
On land that once was an empty hydrangeafarm where he played as a child,
(00:52):
collecting chestnuts and climbing trees.
His story feels like one of thoseperfectly circular garden paths that
lead you right back to where you began.
Today, Hayden tends gardens across thehills - which is quite the plot twist
from his days at the Victorian Collegeof the Arts studying music composition.
(01:13):
When he talks about this journey,there's this beautiful honesty
to it." “My life just got writtenfor me.” he shares in one part.
And I should mention - Hayden hasn'tcompletely left his musical roots behind.
At the end of our conversation today,keep listening as he plays the theme
music he composed specially forthis podcast on his grand piano at
(01:38):
home - a moment where his two worldsof gardening and music intertwine.
So, welcome to the very firstepisode of the Sentimental Gardener
podcast, and a big welcome tomy guest today Hayden Schueler.
So Hayden, you run your own business doinggardening, and maintenance, and you're
based up here in the Dandenong Ranges.
(01:59):
And did you grow up herein the Dandenong Ranges?
I grew up, actually, in the housebehind where I live currently,
so I haven't moved very far.
So . So yeah, you'veliterally moved over the fence.
Basically.
Moved over the fence.
Yeah, I did live in a couple ofplaces before landing here, but
yeah, I've been sort of where I amfor probably close to 10 years now.
(02:21):
And yeah, I love the areaand love working up here.
It is a beautiful spot, isn't it?
Could you share some of yourearly memories of gardens
up here in the Dandenongs?
When I think about gardens growing up,I guess I think about gardens at home.
So my parents' garden, they've gotquite a nice garden and it's one of
(02:43):
those properties that, you know, theybought the house because of the garden.
And I think a, a lot ofproperties up here are like that.
People, people buy up here for, for thegardens, and the house is just, it's
where they live, but the garden is what
really makes it so they had a nice gardenand it was great to grow up running round
and playing amuck in, in that garden.
(03:06):
Lots of, you know, differentrooms and areas and, and funnily
enough, the property that I'mat now was just an empty block.
Wow.
But there was no, there wasno house here or anything.
There wasn't even a driveway on it.
It was just a, it usedto be a hydrangea farm.
Oh, right.
And, you know, years and yearsand years ago and, you know, we
(03:26):
used to jump the fence and sortof play in this property as well.
So it's funny that I'm now livinghere and it, and it does feel a bit
sentimental, this place because of that.
And we've got two big chestnut trees.
And Mum and dad also have a chestnut tree.
And when I was a kid I usedto, you know, collect all the
chestnuts, you know, jump over here.
(03:46):
'cause no, no one else was here, you know?
So jump the fence,collect all the chestnuts.
And you know, I'm stillcollecting the chestnuts.
Yeah.
I saw recently you were posting aboutdifferent ways to cook them and Yeah.
That's so amazing.
It's a big tree.
I saw it as I drove up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we've got one at thefront, one at the back.
We have to, it's hard to get chestnutsnow 'cause of the, uh, cockatoos.
(04:10):
Mm-hmm.
Which just decimate them.
They just come in flocks andthey never used to be that bad.
Like, you know, when I was growing up,even when I first moved here, I. The back
chestnut tree never got touched by thecockatoos, and we used to get buckets
and buckets and buckets of chestnuts.
Mm.
And now it's only the very low branchesthat I can somehow, you know, protect
(04:33):
and they're the last to get eaten.
Last year we got none at all,and this year we got a some.
None.
We got, yeah, none.
Wow.
None.
They're very hungry.
Cockatoos.
That's fascinating that, yeah, youhave memories of being on this property
as a kid, but now also as an adult.
And do you ever have that experience?
Like you see something as an adult andyou go, oh, it's actually not as big.
(04:55):
Like did it feel bigger, the spaceas a kid or it was a hydrangea farm?
It's all changed or,
yeah, it's all completely changed.
'cause there was so muchrubbish on this block.
Mm, okay.
It was just.
Yes, it used to be a hydrangea farm, butover the years it had just become derelict
and full of blackberries and sycamoresand random trees and piles of rubbish.
(05:17):
And it was, it was, it was wild.
Yeah.
I think when the people, peoplebefore us bought the block, I. They
would've just got a bobcat in andjust kind of cleared heaps of it.
So your parents' garden, you weresaying, had lots of rooms in it?
Mm. And were they quite hands-onin the garden, like with
shaping it and designing it?
Or was it quite established?
(05:37):
Like what sort of thingsdid they add to it?
It was quite established already.
Apparently it was first established by,um, I can't remember the person's name.
Someone who ran the FernyCreek Horticultural Society.
You know, way back in the day.
Like in the 1960s.
And so it's established with,you know, really nice, you know,
camelias and azaleas and just,just beautiful trees and areas.
(05:58):
It was really well landscaped and,and, and thought out, you know,
old stone walls and sort of thing.
So, yeah.
Yeah, it was really
nice.
So in terms of what Mum and dad sortof put in, probably not a huge amount,
but it was already pretty special.
Yeah.
They just sort of maintained it, you know?
So growing up, I probably didn't dotoo much to help with the maintenance.
(06:21):
Maybe I'd mow the lawnsometimes or that sort of thing.
For some reason pruningand shaping fascinated me
when I was really young.
And I, I don't know what it was, butfor some reason I just had this urge
to get some shears and just cut.
Yeah.
That's so funny, isn't it?
How did you go?
(06:42):
What were you, were they nice and curvedand uniform or were you just out there?
I can't remember.
I was really young.
I was really young.
But it was, but, butI found it really fun.
Oh, you know, I found it fun.
Yeah.
And I remember asking mum ifI could prune the hydrangeas.
And.
It was, you know, winterand she thought, great.
Yeah.
Go out and prune the hydrangeas.
(07:03):
But I was really young and I didn'tknow what the hydrangeas were.
Okay.
I just called, it ended up being Azaleas.
I wanted to prune, but Ijust called them hydrangeas.
So I got out to the shed and gotthe shears and just started like
trimming all the azaleas, whichwere, you know, all about to flower.
Yeah.
And mum came out and was ashorrified at what I'd done.
Oh no.
Oh, what a funny story.
Yeah.
But I think I really enjoyed it.
(07:24):
Yeah.
So you found your calling very early on.
Yeah.
Isn't that fascinating?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That it was just something about them.
And so going from like, growingup surrounded by gardens, did that
lead you to go and wanna like,study gardens or work in gardens?
Like what's that transition between,yeah, being a kid up here in the
(07:44):
Dandenongs and then you know, runningyour own gardening business now?
When I was a teenager, I. I startedjust working in people's gardens.
Up on the hill.
Um, just, you know, friends, people weknew, um, who just needed a bit of a hand
in the garden because all the gardensare quite large up here and everyone
(08:05):
needs a bit of help from time to time.
Yeah.
When I was probably 15 or 14, even,just started just helping people in the
garden just for a bit of money I guess.
I saw garden work as you know.
As a way to make money when I was younger,
Did you have any formal training inhorticulture or managing gardens?
(08:25):
So, because of the area I live in andhow long I've been just gardening for.
I never went and did a, you know, formaltraining and one of the reasons was
because I had just done a music degree.
And I was working gardeningon the side of that.
I just had work already.
Yeah.
(08:45):
And once I finished my musicdegree, I didn't really feel like
going and doing another course.
I, I did think about it and it, I justcouldn't bring myself to, you know,
doing more assignments and essaysand just the thought of it just.
I think I was done.
I went straight from school to uni andby that time I was just done with that.
(09:07):
For now, it's not to say that oneday I might do something like that.
If I get the time or even, youknow, slightly different, like
maybe in design or you know,just, just some sort of avenue.
That could be a possibility for me oneday, but I just had work up here and I've
learned from my customers, I've learnfrom just being curious about things and
(09:28):
researching and if it's something, I don'tknow, I just look it up straight away.
I'm always looking up plantsand you know, I'm interested in
different ways of doing things.
So I think if you're just curious, youjust sort of learn as you go and be
respectful to people in their gardens.
And yeah, you can't gotoo wrong if you're.
Interested enough.
So you've studied a music degree?
(09:51):
So I studied musiccomposition Uhhuh at VCA,
which is quite a, you know,prestigious course really, isn't it?
Yeah.
At time you've gotta be ableto lots of things at time.
It was hard to get into.
Yeah.
There was only seven of us thatgot, they got in that year.
And that was the last yearthey ran that course yeah.
By the time we got to third year,you know, there was no one below us.
We were the last, and then after thatit transitioned to Melbourne Uni.
(10:11):
Okay.
After that.
So yeah, it was, and I was very.
I worked hard to get into thatcourse because I really wanted
to, and I wanted to write music.
I wanted to be in bands and write songs.
I liked writing orchestral music too.
I wanted to write for films anddocumentaries and all this sort of thing.
And after uni, that wassomething that I tried to do.
(10:35):
But it is very hard and competitive,and to be honest, the gardening
business has picked up so much quicker.
Once I had more time for gardening, I justgot so much more work, I was just in it.
Mm-hmm.
It's like, yeah, my, my life just gotwritten, written for me in, and then
in that Mument it just happened and itfelt really wrong at the time because
(11:01):
my whole life I was doing music and thatwas something that I thought that was
what I was destined to do and the factI was spending so much time gardening
and also really enjoying it felt wrong.
And I, I remember this Mument,I just, I did just feel like I
(11:22):
called myself a closet gardener
because I just had this pull between,you know, music and gardening and like
everyone thought I was a musician, but Ireally, secretly, I just loved gardening.
That's so funny.
Hayden, the closet gardener.
You've been really successfulin it, haven't you?
(11:44):
Like Yeah, but I get that,um, I get that tension.
'cause I grew up thinking Iwas destined to be a ballerina.
And like, you know, spent six days aweek dancing and whole my whole life.
And then an injury cut that short.
But also it's that the prestigious of onlya couple ever make it to make it a career.
(12:06):
And you spend your whole adolescenceor life and I suppose passion following
something and then, yeah, it doesn't, likeyou said, it gets written for you almost.
Yeah.
And there is that point, but it'sawesome that you had something that
you were just as passionate about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
I'm so happy that that'slike, worked out for you.
Yeah.
I think that surprised me how muchI, you know, enjoyed, um, gardening.
(12:30):
I think a big part of it toowas I, I like physical work.
Mm-hmm.
And I like being outsideand I like doing things.
I feel, I feel it's better formy body to be, to be working than
being, you know, being insideand sitting down all the time.
Yeah.
You know, I could never do an office job.
Yeah.
That just really appealed to me.
So, and you know, there's a lot ofmusicians that do enjoy gardening.
(12:56):
Mm-hmm.
And there's lot of musiciansthat don't enjoy gardening too.
And I think if you're inclined toenjoy physical work or I think if
you're a gardener, you, you, um.
Sorry.
If you're a musician, youquite like gardening as well.
Mm.
I feel like there is a bit of a, um,something that draws both fields together.
(13:18):
Mm. I've recently discovered ahorticulture, horticulturist from the UK
called Nigel Dunnett, and he is, I thinka professor at Sheffield University.
And what I loved about his booksor the writing I've read is how he
describes, he feels that gardensare an immersive experience.
How being in it makes you feel.
(13:40):
And that's how I see, you know,the experience of being in
a garden as well personally.
And I've heard a lot of otherpeople's stopiaryes and yeah.
How have you, through your, um,life of creativity and composing,
and how have you seen that outworkthrough your work in gardens?
(14:01):
So when I was at VCA, there was anad advertisement for a gardener at
a garden in Brighton, and I thoughtit was a really weird place to look
for a gardener at an arts college.
You know, why not ask at Burnley, or,you know, it's, it's pretty strange.
Anyway, I was pretty sure thatI was one of the only people
(14:23):
there that was gardening, so Ithought that ad must be for me.
Yeah.
So I, you know, called them upand I ended up, I ended up working
at this garden and ended up beingan amazing garden in Brighton.
It was over an acre.
It was, you know, full of hedgesand topiary and perennial gardens
and all these interesting designsthat I hadn't really seen before
(14:48):
because it was very different to thegardens up in the Dandenong ranges.
It turns out that this lady, she didn'twant a gardener, she wanted an artist.
She wanted someone who not necessarilyknew a huge amount about gardening, but
she, she was willing to train and sortof direct to how she wanted things.
(15:11):
So if I didn't do music and art, then,you know, I wouldn't have gotten that job.
I wouldn't have found out about it.
And I wouldn't have learnedeverything that I learned at that job.
And I probably may noteven be where I am today.
So it's, it's funny just how everything,you know, one thing leads to another.
(15:34):
How you just have to take littleopportunities when they come along.
That next step.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She wanted an artist.
She, she, you know, reallyenjoyed art in the garden, and she
taught me a lot about gardening.
Which was really, reallyvaluable for me at the time.
You know, just about how to pruneand how to fertilise, and just all
(15:57):
those gardening things that I hadn'tlearn before, because, you know, up
on the hill it's quite, it's quitelaborous, so it's less looking after
plants and more just maintenance.
Like big gardens up here, you know,dealing with lots of leaves, lots of
blackberries, lots, you know, mowingand slashing and you know, there's,
(16:17):
there's lots of other things thatmaybe you don't get down in Brighton.
So it was, it was a very differentexperience, but it was very valuable.
It sounds like it's quite a craftthat you learn too, isn't it?
You said there's the maintenance,but then there's also the
nurturing, caring for plants.
In the industry, from your experience,is there still that train of thought
(16:39):
of like, we're just here and wejust do the hedges and we just mow,
whatever, like needs to be done?
Yeah, I think you get awhole range, um, up here.
Which is why I like working up here somuch 'cause the gardens are so varied.
You do get some of thosereally nice manicured gardens.
And then you also just get realtraditional hills kind of bushy gardens.
(17:00):
And I like working in both of them.
You know, we have a team now.
Yeah.
And it's great to be able towork in all sorts of gardens.
We don't tend to discriminate too muchbased on what the garden looks like.
Because yeah, we do enjoy, youknow, working on both sides,
(17:20):
but I think you're right.
I think you know, some, like you sayin the industry, some people would
be more, just about maintenance.
And then some people do look abit more creatively as well.
Yeah.
And I like to look a bitmore creatively where I can.
Yeah.
Especially if the, you know,customer allows us to get a
bit creative in the garden.
That's always really nice, whereassome people are probably a bit more
(17:43):
strict about what we would do in theirgarden, or they like to oversee it,
or they like to make sure we're justdoing the things that they want to do.
And in those Muments, you justsort of do as you're told.
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that beforebecause just being a home gardener, you
just go and you do what needs to be doneor you just accept what you can't do.
But I suppose if you're paying forsomeone, there's that expectation
(18:06):
of, you know, your client wouldhave the expectation of, this
is what I wanna achieve andthis is like how it should look.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
That must be hard, like juggling that.
Yeah.
Well, what's hard is thateveryone's different.
Okay.
So you have to kind of know how people,want their gardens looked after.
And some people have different ideason what's a weed and what's not a weed.
(18:27):
What gets kept in the garden, whatdoesn't get kept in the garden.
Some people want thingspruned a certain way.
Some people don't want somethingtouched, and you just have to know all
these, and sometimes you make mistakes.
You just learn from that.
And you know, we have jobnotes on every single job.
And if there's anything specific likethat, I always make sure those are
on the job notes because when theguys go there, they need to know not
(18:50):
to pull out the montbresia 'causethat customer likes the montbresia.
You know, that sort of thing.
Yeah,
yeah.
Oh, fascinating.
So people who pay to have gardenmaintenance services, I've
recently become one of thosepeople in the last few years.
Because you've come, this is how we met.
Um, you've come and, you know, youtrimmed the hedge, we have this big large
(19:11):
pittosporum hedge at the back of ourhouse, and I naively at the time thought
we like, you know, I've tried to maintainit myself, but it is a very tall hedge.
We don't have the right equipment.
I don't think I really understood thevalue of investing in getting someone
to help with the maintenance at home.
(19:33):
What things have you heard backfrom your customers about the value
that you provide as, um, someonewho cares for people's gardens?
Yeah, so I. This one customer I do.
You know, she's openly saidthat if we weren't maintaining
a garden that she would sell.
Oh, wow.
You know?
Yeah.
She would, she would sell, you know,she's an old, older lady and, and there's
(19:56):
probably, there's probably a couple likethat, to be honest, you know, because
they can't do it all themselves anymore.
So if they didn't have us coming into help with their garden and maintain
it , and they would have to downsize.
And sometimes that's a hard thingto do when it's a, you know,
it's a family home and they'vebeen there for 50 years, I think.
(20:18):
I, I know, I know what you mean.
Like there's, um, we are about tostart, um, a new job in Sherbrooke,
and I was talking to her about itbecause she's done it herself forever.
And we were talking about how it mustfeel a little bit daunting getting a
garden maintenance person to come inand, and help with the garden when
(20:41):
they've done it themselves for forever.
And yeah, it was a niceconversation actually.
But she's gonna reallyvalue having us come in.
Mm. Because it means that they can dowhat they want to do in the garden,
and we can do maybe some of the thingsthat they don't wanna do so much.
And I think it, you know, frees up time.
(21:04):
It also inspires people to get intothe garden themselves a bit more too.
Right.
You know, if we've come in anddone a, a chunk of the garden.
It's actually inspiring for them to thengo out and do a bit more themselves.
Or some people only come out in thegarden when we are there to kind of
work alongside us, and if we didn'tgo then they probably wouldn't
(21:25):
really get out and do it that much.
Oh, that's awesome.
You know, they might walk around thegarden and see what we're doing or
just have discussions about the garden.
And talk about the plants and,yeah, I think the value is different
for everybody, but for sure,some people extremely value it.
Yeah.
Because I know, you know, as you getolder, and like for me, I've got a dodgy
shoulder, or it's, some people, it's theirback or you know able-bodied just as you
(21:48):
age, you aren't as able bodied and mobile.
I mean, gardening helps with that,but it might not even be age.
It might be, you know, disabilityand or, you know, like, if
you're working full time.
Some people I've heard, um, friendsof mine, they're like, I don't wanna
be outside in the garden all weekend.
Like I love gardens.
Yeah.
But yeah, that maintaining ityourself can be quite overwhelming.
(22:11):
And then if you miss a week, thenthe weeds keep growing and then
it gets even more overwhelming.
So yeah.
I really see the benefit of the servicethat people like yourself provide and
how awesome that people get even moreinspired to get out when you know you've
done such a, a large chunk of what you do.
I know it's actually inspiring for mewhen I see your posts on Instagram and
(22:34):
when you've done their hedges or you'relike, it's, this is what we're working
on this week, and I'm like, oh, I betterget out and do mine because it's so good
to have those visual reminders, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's really cool.
Talking about hedges and, andunderstanding now that that's something
you loved in childhood -I saw recentlyyou went overseas on a really big trip.
(22:59):
It was around Europe, I think.
And you went to some amazingfamous gardens and some quite
intricate hedges and that.
Could you describe some of your?Experiences and the gardens you
visited over there and your inspiration.
Yeah, so we visited many gardensthrough England and, uh, France mainly.
And Italy a bit too.
(23:19):
We saw some gardens that were just,you know, been on my bucket list to see
forever, which was, yeah, just amazing.
Amazing.
Because I wanted tosee really old gardens.
I wanted to see old hedgesand old topiary, like.
Hundreds of years old.
Oh, wow.
You know that youcouldn't really get here.
(23:39):
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, I was just.
Yeah.
Amazed at how, how beautiful theywere and just the age of some of
these hedges was just incredible.
How old would they have been,like, older than Australia?
Like, you know, since itwas founded or something?
Yeah, it was some of the, like theu um, hedges and, you know, large
(24:00):
topiary shapes, some of them wereplanted in the late 16 hundreds.
Yeah.
And they're still there.
They're still there still beingmaintained into the shape.
They're still Yep, yep.
And they get trimmed with, you know,they get up there with cherry pickers and
that 'cause because they're very large.
Mm.
They're very, very, very big.
So, yeah, that was fascinating.
Really, really fascinating.
I learnt, I really learnt howthe Australian conditions are.
(24:25):
Right.
I think when I was over there.
Because being over there in summer was somuch different to being here in summer.
And it was, I've, I've, I've always heardthat the Australian conditions are tough.
Mm.
For the gardens and the plants.
But when you experience it, and the, thecontrast 'cause a lot of what we plant
(24:47):
here, you know, is some of the same plantsthat you, you'd have over there as well.
And yeah, just thatdifference was quite amazing.
And you sort of understand whysometimes over here some of the
plants struggle and they get sunburnand they, they wilt and some die
and it's completely understandable.
Because you'd have a day here that's40 degrees and the next day it's 20.
(25:11):
Yeah.
And then you get strong winds and, yeah.
All the rest of it.
It is, it is much harsher.
Whereas over there the, I dunno, justthe whole, the temperature was just much
more stable and it just, it just feltlike the plants were so much happier.
You could feel that while you'rearound them, them, you just feel it.
(25:31):
You can, I suppose you observeit too, because what you are
used to seeing over here.
Yeah.
And then looking at the differenceand going, is that the same plant?
And we do have quiteextremes now, don't we?
Now weather patterns,especially this year.
Yeah.
I know with some of mine as well.
Like you look at them and you'relike, oh, I'm not looking after you.
But then you think about how the weather'sbeen and you're like, I don't know
(25:52):
that I could have done in the thing.
Yeah, that's right.
To stop
them.
They're just reacting to theirenvironment, aren't they?
Yep.
Yep.
And the environment is massive.
Like even if you water very regularly,it doesn't beat just having rain.
You know, even if you just water,if you have just a few days of nice
rain it, you just see the difference.
(26:14):
It's something else, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's something else.
Yeah.
Everyone always comments online,you know, as soon as there's been
rain, they're like, oh my gosh,look at the garden that just,
yeah.
Is so much more lush and,yeah, that's so true.
Yeah.
But yeah, overseas I just, yeah,loved all the hedges and topiary and
all the plants that they use and.
It was, um, it was inspiring, but at thesame time, a lot of what I was looking at
(26:38):
was quite large-scale chateaus and, youknow, it's, it's probably not something
that I could put in my own garden.
And you know, they often have like10 full-time gardeners working
on these sort of properties.
So it's, it is, it is pretty next level.
But it was, it was fascinating to see.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially the history andhow long it's been kept for.
(27:01):
France is quite, they have thattraditional, very sharp type of topiary,
don't they like edging and, yeah.
Yes.
But one of my favorite gardens was,I think it was Chateau de la Ballue.
What I liked about that, itwas, there was a, a contrast.
So you had, you had areas of that, youknow, those classic French parterre.
All the, you know, symmetry andthat, but they also had areas which
(27:25):
were a little bit more like uphere, had lots of large trees and
you know, beautiful underplantings
.And it still had topiary kind of mixed in with it, but it felt a
bit more lush and a bit more mixed.
And I really, really liked that.
And even behind the French parterrewas all these Niwaki Japanese
(27:45):
style pines, which they get pruned.
And just the contrast between that.
And the French parterre was, thatwas, that was really interesting.
What's the difference betweenJapanese topiary and European topiary?
So Japanese, they oftenwill prune in layers.
(28:08):
And they kind of make, make itlook like a organic tree still.
Okay.
It's pruned.
It's kind of looks a bit more natural.
Whereas European topiary is quite, youknow, you might get the perfect sphere
or the, the, the square or cone shapes,the cubes, the cones, whatever you like.
(28:29):
You know, they're quite, um,symmetric yeah, in the way they prune.
Whereas, it's a bit moreorganic in, in Japan.
And that's what I, I, I likethat style and I try and bring
that into gardens as well.
You know, I don't like trying tocreate just the perfect sphere.
I would always like a bit more of amushroomy shape or like a flatter top.
(28:52):
That's a great way to describe it.
I, I just find it just lookssomehow more natural and just flows
through the garden a bit more.
Where I find like a perfect sphereis a bit more, I don't know, it just
doesn't look as natural and yeahdoesn't flow in the garden as much.
You've got, you've got someof that Japanese topiary in
(29:13):
your front yard, don't you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So I've trained them for about 10 years.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, so they were justa scraggly row of bushes.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, they're Luma, Luma Myrtles.
And yeah, it's taken me ages to, youknow, prune them back and, you know,
selectively take out branches that weremaybe competing with the other ones.
So you sort of thin them outso each little layer has space.
(29:36):
And then you can just keeppruning and trimming and creating
the shapes as they evolve.
And the good thing is you cancut them back really hard and
they still grow back again.
So they're the perfectspecimen to do it on.
But yeah, it's been about 10years in, in the, in the making
and they look fabulous.
They do, but they're always evolving.
That's the, the best thing about,about them and about topiary in
(29:58):
general, is it's never finished.
Nothing's ever finished.
There's always a little layer thatyou're working on or letting something
grow or training something in a certainway, maybe with, you know, rope just
to pull, pull, um, branches away fromother ones or that sort of thing.
So it's always a work in progress and itevolves over time and it ages over time.
(30:18):
a
Yes.
Talking about your garden, is there asentimental plant here at home that when
you see it, it reminds you of a specialmemory or has special meaning to it?
Well, this block is quite new reallybecause it got sort of flattened you know,
after it was you know, but the remainingthings here, of course, the chestnuts.
(30:39):
So I'd say they're quite sentimentalgiven what we spoke about before.
Yeah.
I find the, um, camellias are verysentimental, especially the sasanquas when
they flower and they, the scent of them.
I find that nostalgic for some reason.
I can't really think back why.
(31:00):
I think it's just growing upwith them because they were
everywhere at Mum and Dad's.
Just the scent of the Quas.
I just love it and itjust reminds me of Autumn.
It reminds me of cominginto winter, you know?
It's something really freshon the other side of summer.
It reminds me of, yeah,the change of seasons.
(31:21):
I'd say that's a very sentimental scent.
Very sentimental plant.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love how it's the scent withthe plant that reminds you.
Yeah.
It's not just the visual.
That's so awesome.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I used to climb them,you know, as a kid as well.
You know, maybe that's what it is.
I used to climb them and get up inthem 'cause I liked climbing trees.
(31:42):
Yeah.
You know?
That's so good.
I love that.
Thinking of home gardens as someonewho's a home gardener, and for those
of us maintaining our own gardens athome, what's one technique that you
think more home gardeners should adopt?
So if you're talking practically,I would like to see more home
(32:06):
gardeners mow their lawns regularly.
I love it!
And whipper snip the edges.
Oh yes, tell us more.
Especially those that have Kikuyu grass.
(32:26):
Because that just is just rampantand you just see that all over the
suburbs, just getting up into plantsand trees and gardens and up power
poles and all this sort of thing.
I think if everyone put a bit more effortinto controlling that grass, I think that
would be a really good thing for society.
Talking more holistically, Ithink everyone should try and
(32:49):
grow some sort of food for theirkitchen, and it's not that hard.
To even just to grow some herbs.
I feel like herbs are so expensive to buy.
Mm-hmm.
When you go and buy herbsrealise, youjust, it's actually crazy when you realize
how easy it is to grow herbs yourself.
(33:10):
You will think, why have I beenbuying herbs all this time?
Yeah.
It's like $5 and you getthree tiny little shoots.
Exactly.
And you use one stem of it in the mealand the rest of it just dries out in
the fridge and then it's in the bin.
It's so true.
So I feel like everyone shouldat least just grow some herbs.
Oh, I'm with you on that one.
Yep.
(33:31):
Yeah.
Rosemary, thyme.
Par, parsley.
Parsley.
They tend to just sort ofkick along for a long time.
It's worth it.
And they can grow in pots too.
They can grow in pots.
Yeah.
Which is what I love.
You don't have to have a, a spotthat's, you know, you just chuck 'em in
some pots, put them at the back door.
Yep.
Collect the seeds in autumnor when they go to seed.
(33:51):
Yep.
And then just keep the process going.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I love it.
Or sometimes they'lljust self seed as well.
You don't even have to worry,you know, parley, I'll just
probably pop up themselves anyway.
And I think putting them close toyour kitchen is, is the way to go.
I've seen some properties withveggie gardens, which are ages away
from their house, and I just thinkthere's no way they're going out
there to collect a bit of rosemary.
(34:13):
They'll just go without or whatever.
Trying to bring food close to yourkitchen, veggie gardens, planter
boxes, whatever close to the kitchenis, um, yeah, it's really beneficial.
It'll change your
life in cooking.
Yeah, it will.
Well, I've got some quick-firequestions okay to close us off with.
First one (34:34):
hand shears or power tools, what do you prefer?
Pick one.
Okay.
If I had to pick one for me.
I used to always only use hand shears.
Because I loved hand shears andespecially good quality ones.
(34:57):
I've got a lot of Japanese.
Hand shears.
And when I first startedgardening, that's all I use.
And I used to do some pretty bighedges just with hand shears.
And I loved the finish because they trimso they, they cut so clean and the finish
on the hedge is something different.
(35:19):
It's really, really clean.
All the leaves are just cut nicely.
And these days we use a lotmore power tools and you know,
it's obviously, it's quicker.
And more productive in the garden.
But you do notice the difference?
If, if, if you actually made me pickone that I was going to use at home
(35:39):
forever, I would, I would pick handshares because I've got lots of nice
hand shares that I couldn't live without.
I.
I think that's the key, isn't it?
The really good quality.
Yeah.
Yes.
And looking after them.
Yes.
You have to look after themand get some really good ones.
Yeah.
And not leave them out inthe garden like I always did
. Okay.
All right.
(36:00):
Is there a garden somewhere in the worldthat you're still hoping to go and visit?
The Adachi Museum in Japan?
I would love to visit.
I have been to Japan, butI didn't quite get there.
It was a little bit off the beat.
That is just, yeah.
That's stunning.
The garden is like.
It's like a gallery, so you can view thegarden from inside a building Oh wow.
(36:22):
With big windows.
And each window is like a, pieceof art, you know, on your wall.
Oh, I love it.
And I would love to visit that, youknow, beautiful, large azalea blobs.
Love it.
Yeah,
That sounds great.
I'll have to look that one up.
Okay, in one word or sentence,how does your garden make you
(36:44):
feel when you're out in it?
I find it peaceful and meditativewhen I can get out there and
actually just poke around the garden.
And there's not oftenenough time for that.
But when you get into that head spaceof just being in the garden, just,
(37:05):
just doing some simple things even.
It is really nice and a nicedistraction from the busyness
of, you know, everything we do.
So when you're out in your garden,do you have, are you a podcast, music
or no headphones-on type of person?
Well, probably two or three yearsago, I would've just been nothing.
You know, I, I didn't have any sound.
(37:27):
But now I've discovered, um, apple AirPods
and the noise cancellingones, and I, I do love them.
I must say they're great fordampening the sound of uh, you know,
your electric tools and that andyeah, I like to listen to music.
(37:47):
I also like to listen to podcasts, justdepends how I'm feeling on the day.
Yeah.
Couldn't pick one or the other.
I'd listen to both.
Okay.
Awesome.
And lastly, one person you'dlove to have a cuppa with and
hear their garden stories.
Well, I'd like to have a cuppawith Jake Hobson from, um, England.
So he's the founder of Niwaki, um, whoI used, well still do, but buy a lot
(38:12):
of garden tools from, he's, probably 10years ago, or probably more actually,
but I got his book, which was The Art ofCreative Pruning, and that was one of the
things that got me into particularly theJapanese style of pruning and shaping.
And when I found his store andstarted buying all his tools,
that really changed my life.
(38:32):
So I definitely owe a lot to him.
I have visited Niwaki in the uk,but I haven't met Jake Hobson.
So maybe one day I wouldlike to, maybe day.
Yeah.
And have a cuppa.
Sounds good.
Awesome.
Well, Hayden, thank you so much forbeing, this is officially the first
podcast for the Sentimental Gardener.
(38:53):
Great.
And there's actually something we haven'thad a chat about, but it's a special
surprise and that you actually havewritten the theme music for this podcast.
Yep.
So you're going to play for us.
And I just wanna say it's uh, just beensuch an honour to have you create that
music for me and I think it just, fillsYeah, is lovely to see that whole circle
(39:17):
of, um, you know, tying back in into thegardening and the music and it literally
fill me with joy every time I hear it.
So thank you so much for that gift.
(51:44):
Thank you so much for joiningme and listening today.
I'm reminded of what Hayden said aboutJapanese-style pruning - how it's never
truly finished, but always evolving.
Our life stories workthe same way, don't they?
We prune here, shape there, and somehowfind ourselves creating something both
intentional and wonderfully unexpected.
(52:05):
If you enjoyed this podcast, considersubscribing so you don’t the new episodes.
And until next time, mayyour garden—whatever form it
takes—continue to nurture thestories that matter most to you.
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