Sandra Schwarz on the study of green spaces, her book titled Restore and silver birches

Episode Transcript
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CD (00:01):
I am Cass Dowding, and this is The Sentimental Gardener, a podcast
sharing other people's stories,rich with memories and meaning
connected to plants and gardens.
You know that feeling when you walkinto a garden or a beautiful outdoor
space and you can just feel yourshoulders drop when something in your

(00:22):
body goes, ah, but it happens evenbefore your mind knows it's happened.
There's actually a name for that.
It's the exhale factor.
And understanding exactly why thathappens when we're in Green Spaces
has become my guest's life work.
Sandra Schwartz is a landscapearchitect, author, and former

(00:45):
teacher who swapped the classroomfor something completely different
after she heard a designer talkingto her teenage students about turning
concrete waterways back into rivers.
That moment changed everything for her,and she knew that this was something
and a field that she wanted to follow.

(01:06):
It led her from Melbourne to Sweden,from teaching teenagers to researching
rehabilitation gardens and fromwondering why green spaces make us
feel better to actually proving it.
Sandra's journey is one of followingher curiosity wherever it leads.
A study exchange in Sweden revealedwhat would become her PhD focus.

(01:30):
What are therapeutic spaces?
What can they do for us andhow are we when we're in them?
Her curiosity took her to Sweden's UlnarRehabilitation Garden and there she
studied how the different garden roomshelped people heal from chronic stress.
She explores places like Gart Navels,Maggie Center, and closer to home.

(01:50):
She volunteers at Royal TalbotRehabilitation Hospital with nurse and
horticultural therapist Steven Wells.
She's poured all of this experienceand knowledge into a soon to be
released book called Restore, howGreen Spaces Support Human Restoration.
Through the book, she translatesall that academic research into

(02:14):
practical recommendations for peoplelike landscape architects, garden
designers, home gardeners, or justpassionate plant people who wanna
create spaces that actually heal.
Now, Sandra calls them green spacesrather than gardens, because not
everything that heals us fitsinto neat traditional categories.

(02:38):
So when you hear her say thatword on the podcast, there's
actually a reason behind it.
Today's podcast is very comprehensive inthat there's a lot of information, but
Sandra does a brilliant job in explainingit in a way that regardless of if you're
a landscape architect with lots ofbackground knowledge or you are just a

(03:00):
home gardener, you'll be able to takeaway the fundamental elements of what
it means to build a garden That heals.
Today's podcast goes forabout an hour and a half.
The first section is to do withher early memories of gardens.
The middle part is to do with theresearch that's found in her book,

(03:20):
and the last part are the sentimentalstories she has of some of the
gardens she visited in Europe.
I learned so much from the timeI had with Sandra and I really
hope you enjoy today's podcast.
Sandra Schwartz, welcome to theSentimental Gardener Podcast.
Thank you so much.

(03:40):
Glad to be here.
It's an honor to have you here.
Thank you.
When I start these podcasts, I love tojump back all the way to the beginning
and ask when you think back to yourearliest memories of gardens, what
memory lingers most vividly for you?

SS (03:56):
It's an interesting one 'cause I think a few of the podcasts that are out there
looking at green spaces, think of that.
And I don't have the, mygrandma was a gardener story.
Um, so as much as.
I think it's always beenpart of my life in some way.
Um, in saying that, I grew up untilthe age of eight in Germany and

(04:20):
so we lived in an apartment so wedidn't have a garden, but certainly
there was always green space around.
And we did actually have, they're notreally allotment gardens, but they're
a special type of garden that is often,especially along train lines in, um,
Germany and other parts of Europe whereyou have a garden space that's separate.

(04:42):
You're not allowed to live there, but youcan have a hut on it or something like
that, that you can overnight, but you'renot allowed to live there permanently.
Um, and we had one of those, andI remember my auntie and uncle
and my cousins being next doorand then our neighbors were down
that path of that row as well.
Um, so I guess that they aremy earliest memories of it.

(05:02):
It just being.
Part of our life.
Um, and those neighbors, 'cause obviouslywe moved to Australia and then my auntie
and uncle I don't think had their gardenfor much longer either once we moved.
But those neighbors still hadit until recently when they
unfortunately passed away.
Um, and I remember always going back tothat garden, like if ever I visited them

(05:24):
in Germany, it would be going to see that.
And it was all about the food growing andthe abundance of tomatoes and look at my
new crop of this and that sort of thing.
Um, and then also we would alwaysgo and see family who lived in
another part of Germany as a child.
We would go there for Easter.

CD (05:40):
Mm-hmm.

SS (05:41):
And that was the Easter egg hunt in their garden.
Mm-hmm.
And they had a property where.
The grandparents owned a house that backedonto the house of the older children,
but both their gardens faced each other.
So it was quite a large green space.
And that would be, uh, every year, uh,Easter egg hunt and being outdoors.
Um, so they're the childhood memoriesaround it, but not something where

(06:04):
I would say my parents were greatgardeners or anything like that.
But then when we moved to Australiaas well, uh, we moved into and had,
like, our house was built, um, I thinkit was already sort of on the plan,
but we were the first people thatlived in it, and mom and dad still do.
And it was a fairly newstreet at that time.

(06:24):
So in the early eighties and.
The garden was just part of the house.
You know, you, you didn't, itwasn't just about the house.
You, yes.
You built a garden.
And so mom and dad did that.
I don't feel like I wasparticularly involved in it.
It was just this ubiquitous thingis that, yes, of course you have a
garden and you look after it, but ina way it was mom and dad's garden.

(06:47):
Not so o other than me playing in it.
But we often talk about the factthat because we were one of the first
people to move into that street, thefact that we focused on the garden
seemed to inspire other people.
And so other people would,oh yeah, actually we'll do
our front garden as well.
So it's more of a ubiquitous thing,sort of in the background of my

(07:09):
life rather than this kind ofdeeper thing, um, or experience.
But, um.
Yeah, it's, it's, it is definitelylater and I know once I moved
out on my own, that's when I waslike, okay, this is my space.
I get to con, you know, create this now.

(07:29):
That's when it became like, okay, thisis now about my, what I'm doing with it.
Um, so yeah, so there's not sort ofthat, that pivotal garden space, but
just something that was always there,but never a focus until I got back to it.
So

CD (07:46):
thinking back to Germany mm-hmm.
Is that, was it common thatpeople had those spaces?
Um, like the little garden,like the allotment common space?
Yeah.
Um, like a lot of people had them.
Yeah.

SS (07:56):
And they're usually on, um, like it'll be railway owned land,
so they are usually a long railway.
So if you, if you go on a trainjourney, you'll see lots of them.
They're slightly bigger than I guess whatwe would think of as an English allotment.
'cause it's not.
Often it's not just veggie growing.
Like for us it was definitely, it hada hut in our, like we've got old, you

(08:18):
know, eight millimeter video or filmof, um, me being on a, on a swing there.
So it was more just a green playspace rather than a garden as such.
Um, but yeah, it is, it is pretty common.
I think that they're pretty cheap to.
To rent.
Um, and like I said, the, theneighbors that we had, I mean,

(08:39):
theirs was just abundant with foodproduction and they have had it
for probably about 50 years now.
Wow.
So, yeah.
So like once people have it, it's,I mean, yeah, it's a rental system.
Mm. But, um, but I know acousin of mine still has one.
Um, yeah.
And they're often sort of close by.
'cause the way that housing'sdone is you might have high-rise

(09:01):
apartments, but they'll be closer.
Like, it's not like you haveto drive half an hour to get
there or anything like that.
It's usually, you know, someone willtake a bike to go there and then.
Yeah.
But often ways of spending weekends andthen as you go in, like in Eastern Germany
or towards Poland, it's more like they'recalled duchess, which are both Yeah.
These little sort of, you know, holidayhuts with the surrounding garden.

(09:26):
So yeah, they are, I think they arequite common, generally speaking.
Obviously there's a limit of how, howmany you can have with a large population.
Mm-hmm.
It's only so much space, but Yeah.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
They're great.
Different isn, they're beautiful tolook at as well as you, if you do take
a, a train ride because you just seeall the different expressions of, you

(09:46):
know, how people create their gardens,whether it is for food production or
a green space to relax in or Yeah.
Whatever.
And you've been

CD (09:56):
back,

SS (09:56):
have you?
And and noticed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We used to go back everycouple of years, so, oh, cool.
Yeah,

CD (10:00):
yeah, yeah.
I love the thought of peoplemaking it their own you, like
you said, it's not just for food.
Mm-hmm.
And it would be, yeah, that expression of.
Whatever that personwanted to grow and, yep.
Almost, yeah, an expression.
It's basically,

SS (10:15):
I guess like we have gardens here.
Mm. But, um, just that it's separateto your house because your house has
a balcony and is on the fifth floor.
So it's, in a way it's, it'slike your typical backyard.
It's just your backyard isn'tactually attached to your house.
That's how I sort oflook at it with those,

CD (10:33):
so.
You said, yeah, you didn't havelike that experience of, you know,
a grandmother who gardened all that.
Mm-hmm.
But life sometimes pulls ustowards places we're meant to be.
So how did working in gardensfirst begin to call to you?

SS (10:47):
I think when I moved out on my own.
So in my mid twenties, um, aftersome travel and finishing my
education or teaching degree.
And at that point, like Isaid, it was that real, okay,
this is, this is mine now.
Which I know is not a particularlylovely thought in the sense of, you
know, power and ownership and allthat sort of stuff, but it's what
it was That was the nineties, um, Ithinking was a bit different then.

(11:10):
And just that, that idea of it was justa small courtyard, but recreating it.
So I put in, um, a pond, I put in, youknow, plants, I moved plants that were
there, that, and it was about, no,this is, this is mine to create and
style and move and I guess manipulate.
So that's where it sort of camefrom that I was interested and

(11:32):
it was a space to also grow food.

CD (11:34):
Mm-hmm.

SS (11:35):
And then after, 'cause I did actually go back over to Germany
to teach for a few years as well.
So I was there for four years,had a couple of breaks in between.
So I became a scuba dive instructorup in Queensland in between, but came
back and was, and so yeah, when theywere my own spaces, it was about how

(11:56):
do I create that sanctuary for me?
And being outdoors as much as I could be.
But that was just the hobby of gardening.
And then I was starting to getready to get out of teaching 'cause
I thought, I don't wanna hate it.
I, I like if I'm gonna leave, I'llleave while I'm still okay with it.
So was sort of prepping for that.

(12:18):
And in my final year of teaching, so whichwas 2014, I actually taught 'cause I was
visual communication and design and thena bit of visual arts photography and I.
Taught a year 10 technical drawing unit.
But because we didn't want it to betoo dry, the point was that you created

(12:38):
the garden with your fantasy housethat you were technically drawing and
just watching, well, my own brain,but also watching those kids' eyes
light up when I would say, well, youknow, why can't you have a green wall?
What about a rooftop garden on your house?
And just watching their eyes go,oh my Lord, yeah, I could do that.

(12:58):
And it was just this joy of creation,but it was that joy of creation through
thinking about plants and green spaces.
And imagine, imagine if itwas this and it, you know, you
were surrounded by greenery.
And so as I left teaching I, and afew years prior, there used to be

(13:19):
a, a design conference, um, hostedin Melbourne by Ken Cato, who was a
graphic designer here, quite well known.
And they would always, because alot of high school students would
attend, even though it was a tertiaryconference, so to speak, they often
then catered for the high schoolstudents that were coming anyway.

(13:39):
And so they did a day where.
It was almost like short pockets ofjust people in very, really varied
design industries talking about, thisis how I got into it, this is what I do.
Mm-hmm.
To get those kids thinkingabout what design career future
would I like to look into.
So I remember one year we had,it was the graphic designer for

(14:01):
the, the titles for movies, likemovie titles and movie intros.
Then it was a, a fashion designer andthen Kate Dy was one of the landscape
architects who came and spoke and theyear after was Knu, who's from Scape in
China, who's like just making amazing,um, restorations of River Riversides.

(14:24):
And I came out of especially Kang and justwent, oh, imagine, imagine doing that.
Like imagine taking a concrete channeland turning it into a river again.
Like actually.
Being this natural, beautiful space.
And so when I had the break, Iwent, actually, I wanna do that.

(14:45):
Like I'm, I'm teaching kids to getto this point where they're going
to uni to do this kind of career.
And I thought, you know what?
I wanna do that.
And so, yeah, as I was figuring it out,so I'd done a career test and the two
things that popped up for me as mostlikely to move into were landscape
architecture, or like conservationand curation as in art conservation.

(15:09):
And they both really interestedme, but it was the garden side that
pulled me in where I went, actually,no, I'd like to, I'd like to work
with green spaces and gardens.
And so this is, this is probably myone little story almost like that, that
garden that some people have is that Ithought, what one, the only way to get
to change careers was to go back to uni.

(15:31):
I was like, okay, that's fine.
So it worked out that that wasdoable in terms of, you know,
financially being able to manage it.
And then, but still in my head, ifyou'd asked me, is this gonna happen?
I would've thought, no.
'cause I can't, can'treally afford the fees.
How do I do this for three years without.
Having income.

(15:52):
Mm-hmm.
You know, how, how does all of this work?
But I keep saying I had that, youknow, you always have the, the angel
and the devil on your shoulder.
There was the angel was louderand going, well just go and ask.
Just go and ask the question.
And so I made an appointmentwith a student advisor.
And it, like, by the end of thatmeeting, I was standing in the, the
huge beautiful atrium of the MelbourneSchool of Design with tears in my eyes

(16:16):
going, oh my Lord, this is gonna happen.
Oh wow.
This, this is possibly gonna happen.
Like I can change, makes me teary now.
Mm. I can, um, yeah.
Change my career.
Mm. And this is possible.
And uh, and it was things like,you know, asking what's the
turnover of application process?
How, how do the fees work?

(16:36):
How does all, and she answered all myquestions and, and basically problem
solved almost everything for me.
And to the point of which is soexceptional, was the help that.
I said to her, look, I can't quit myteaching job until I know I have a place.
Like I'm not dumping acareer for a possibility.
I have to know that I'm in.

(16:58):
And so she said, no, that's fine.
Just let me know when you've applied.
I applied on Monday and byFriday I had a Yes, you're in.
Oh, that's awesome.
And was like, whoa, okay.
This is happening.
So yeah.
So that's where the garden side came from.
'cause then I went, okay,landscape architecture, it
is, this is what we're doing.
And it's for me, because I hadn'tcome from landscape architecture.

(17:20):
Um, it was a three yearinstead of a two year master's.

CD (17:23):
Mm-hmm.

SS (17:24):
Okay.
So you started off with the mayou like you just went straight

CD (17:26):
into a master's

SS (17:27):
because I already had the Bachelor of education.
Mm-hmm.
Um, yeah, they're, they often a bit funnyabout having you do a second bachelor.
Mm-hmm.
And so they were just like, no Masters.
Masters.
And that's why the three year mastersat Melbourne was useful because it
was, mind you, it was a bit daunting'cause we all kind of went, hang on.
So what We're catching up.
Four years of bachelor in one year.
Okay.

(17:47):
No pressure.
That's a lot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm not sure that we did,'cause I feel like there's a lot
of gaps still in my knowledge.
But that's okay.
Mm-hmm.
That's what lifelonglearning is there for.
So

CD (17:59):
true.
So how incredible.
How incredible.
I love that.
Yeah.
It was a pretty,

SS (18:04):
pretty quick turnaround in the end when it happened.
So yeah, very grateful to have to havechanged and shifted because there that
focus on gardens is very important.
Mm-hmm.
Wouldn't have it anyother way now in my life.

CD (18:18):
Brilliant.
I love that.
Through your training at the university.
Mm-hmm.
Was there a lot of focus on how to makebeautiful gardens or when did you realize
that landscapes could be more than justbeautiful places that they could heal
and there was that therapeutic side?

SS (18:37):
I think essentially in Sweden.
Mm-hmm.
Just purely because, and this is the,I guess the differentiation between
landscape architecture and eitherlandscape design or garden design.
Mm-hmm.
Which the edges are blurred.
But I guess in a way, and I find thisa little unfortunate because we are

(18:58):
effectively called the green architects,but I'm not so sure how true that is.
'cause there's very littleplant training within that.
So several universitieshave like either nothing or.
Uh, one subject.
So we had one compulsory, soone semester in three years.
About, about plants.
About plants.
Okay.
I, I took the second, and then lucky forme was that because there was a chance to

(19:22):
do the exchange or the travel, the studyabroad, I got more because I went overseas
and through circumstantial because ofmy still German passport and everything.
Um, ended up doing the two yearsin Sweden rather than one, but
got one year's worth of credit.
Back here.
So I think really that's where I probablyfound it, the, the focus in landscape

(19:45):
architecture is often about programming.
Like as in what do you wantpeople to do there, as in, because
it's usually bigger spaces.
It's not, it's notusually a garden as such.
Like it'll be a forecourt or a, um,a community space or you know, it
could even, I mean a lot of the thingshappening at the moment in Melbourne

(20:06):
are around the, you know, the trainlines and the level crossing changes.
Mm-hmm.
So it's those spaces and it's lookingat, okay, so what's gonna happen there?
Will, people are gonna bike, rideand walk, so that's the program.

CD (20:17):
Mm.

SS (20:18):
So it's usually more about that than it is about the plants.
Mm. Which is why a lot of landscapearchitects cop a lot of flack.
'cause they have a very limitedpalette of plants that they use.
And Lara should notalways be part of that.
So, yeah.
So I think from that pointof view, I probably started
looking at it from a more.
Garden side of things, once I gotto to Sweden and there was the

(20:41):
rehab garden on the campus there.
And so people in environment for uswas about the environment of, well,
we had different, it was cities,so you know, like street art.
And how does that impact theenvironment that you have in a
city looking at children's spacesand how can cities be made?
Adaptable for children, et cetera.

(21:03):
And obviously all also a big topicis for aged people that are aging.
But yeah.
And then we spent quite a bit of timeat the rehab garden, and so that was
where it was like, wow, you guys, 'causethe, the garden was built to research
how various spaces impacted people whowere being treated for chronic stress.

(21:24):
So chronic stress was the focus.
That was the focus when they started.
They did diversify as they went on.
But chronic stress, and I think partof that, from what I understood was
that because there was a bit of anepidemic of chronic stress in Sweden.
Where a lot of people were off work andwe're talking like to qualify to be part
of the research, I think you had to havebeen off work for two years because you'd

(21:48):
basically had a breakdown and couldn'tcope with work, you know, normal life
anymore because of the stress on you.
And so that garden was created andI potentially, they would've created
it in the way that they did anywayin terms of having lots of different
rooms and spaces, because obviouslythat allowed different experiences.

(22:11):
So people that were therefor their treatment.
Could choose what theyfelt comfortable in.
So some people needed to go offinto the wilder space, which was
not as, in, not cared for, butjust not very manicured at all.
Mm-hmm.
And potentially to some people, a bitmessy, but that, that was all that they
could cope with because as soon as itwas manicured, it was like, oh, well

(22:34):
that's pressure on me, or I can't touchanything, or I need to help look after it.
Mm-hmm.
And so it was just this underlying sortof pressure that they couldn't cope with.
And also in some of the research theytalked about, like there was a field,
well there's sort of a meadow, um,and then a field next, next door,
and people would just go off thereand, and yell their heads off and

(22:56):
scream if they needed to get that out.
So having the space to do that, butagain, in much less manicured spaces,
like it would be quite a wild meadowor, or just an agricultural field
where it was space and you knew youweren't gonna be heard or judged.
Mm. And so, yeah, theirresearch definitely started
with stress rehabilitation.

(23:16):
But then later, I know that they lookedat, because they had quite a few of
the rooms that were hedged with hornbeam, they found that within Parkinson's
disease, there's actually, it's likea gate freeze where if they have to
walk through certain doorways mm-hmm.
They freeze.
Um, there's just something about thevisual of, of a doorway that blocks them.

(23:39):
And so they were, that was one studythat was done at that garden to try and
understand how do you soften that orhow do you change the appearance of a,
of a doorway or a gateway threshold.
So that they don't get that freezebecause it can last, you know, 30
seconds, couple of minutes, whatever.
And then I think towards the end, beforethey closed, they were also looking at

(24:03):
how to, uh, help new migrants integrate.
So giving them gardeningskills, which helped and
supported their language skills.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and also just, you know, to gain anunderstanding about you're new to the
country, how does Swedish culture work?
Because a lot of what they did there,like there was very typical Swedish
housing or house style with thattypical red color and white trim.

(24:28):
And then just, you know, like,what's the seasonality of Sweden?
What's abundant right now?
What can we not get?
How do we share food?
So fika is what they have as coffee.
So there's lots of fika breaks in Sweden.
Always like morning tea,lunchtime, afternoon tea.
It's like, oh, we having fca yet?
It's like, right, we're having it again.

(24:49):
Um, yeah.
So that sort of thing.
So that's, that.
They were at least three.
And I think there was another, um,researcher who was my supervisor who I
think did some work on dementia as well.
So they were starting to, to mix itup a little bit into the different
user groups, but predominantly it,it was built for let's research

(25:10):
into stress, chronic stress.

CD (25:11):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I notice you use the term green space.
Yes.
And you know, sometimes, we'llI'll say garden or landscape.
Could you explain to me what youmean by green space compared to
like a garden or a landscape?
I think it's exactly what you just said.
Okay.
Is that there's

SS (25:28):
often, there's, there can be a landscape which you are in and you know
that you're not really in a garden.
Mm-hmm.
Like it, I don't know, it doesn'thave some kind of, I guess,
uniformity or signal that mm-hmm.
Tells you this is a gardenyou, you're definitely in and
probably more public open spaces.

CD (25:47):
Mm-hmm.

SS (25:48):
Yeah.
So I guess I would call something like,certainly in the outer east, there's
a few, um, backtracks that are quitemeadowy that have walking tracks that
are like where the water pipelines arerun, where a lot of people go walking.
So to me, that's a green spacebecause when it's not dry, like right

(26:11):
now Mm, that it's a green space.
But I wouldn't call it a garden.
Yep.
Gotcha.
Mm-hmm.
But then on the other hand, alot of times I think there are
connotations for green space as well.
Mm-hmm.
The reason I've used it, certainlywithin the book is because
it's a more generalized term.
So I'll be quite specific ifI'm talking about a garden.

(26:32):
Mm-hmm.
But with the spaces thatI'm talking about, so for
example, the Highline mm-hmm.
In New York, I wouldn'tcall that a garden.
Mm. It's a, to me it's a greenspace 'cause it's a linear park.
So it starts to have, it juststarts to, I guess, break through
that definition of a garden.
Mm. In itself.

(26:52):
Um, so that's why I was trying to sortof make it more universal and more broad.
Mm-hmm.
Certainly it includes gardens.
Mm-hmm.
But it can also be likeBallast Point Park.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, that's in Sydney andit's like, it's a park.
It's definitely a park.
I wouldn't call it a garden.

(27:14):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
More expansive.
Mm-hmm.
In a way.
But it's also not just a landscape.
Yeah.
It's, it is a green space.
Like there is definitely a focuson planting or that sort of thing.
So yeah, it's a bit, it is a trickydefinition to have, but it's just
trying to aim to be a bit more broad.

(27:35):
Mm. Than purely a garden, but itcan also become a landscape because
it can't be defined as a garden.

CD (27:43):
Mm. Yeah.
I think it just, it's great.
It helps that universality.
Mm. That you, yeah.
You're trying to go for, speaking of yourbook, the book feels like an invitation
to see green spaces differently.
Mm-hmm.
So what truth are youhoping to share through it?

SS (27:58):
Oh gosh, so many.
Well, what's the main one, do you

CD (28:02):
think?

SS (28:03):
I think the main thing is just for people to value green
space and that we need it.
Like this isn't, you know, lotsof people are now talking about
we are nature and that's true.
We are, and we need to stop actuallyseparating ourselves from these spaces.
It makes me quite scared about how allthe McMansions that have, you know,
that take up the vast majority of theirfootprint on, on their land plots with no

(28:28):
garden, no green space, let alone lawn.
Not that I think lawn is what needs tobe included, but you get councils that
say, you know, you must plant a tree.
And it's like, well, wherewould you like me to do that?
'cause you've left meno footprint to do that.
As in, I think councils shouldnot be allowing such large house
footprints on um, properties.

(28:49):
And in some cases they're notor they're not supposed to.
So I'm not quite sure howthey're getting around that.
Mm. But it's so seeing the valueof actually all of these green
spaces, and I think it comes backto the previous question of that's
why I'm calling them green spaces.
Not everything is gonna be a garden.
Mm-hmm.
But if you can have some greenery aroundyou, that is a value and we all need it.

(29:11):
And as soon as we start, as Gina Chick,um, talks about that, if we enclose
ourselves in walls and we actuallyblock the views out and we don't see
any of that greener, we don't see,you know, like we look at our phone
apps to find out what the weather is,stick your head out the front door.
You know, like it's thatkind of simplicity of that.

(29:33):
We keep making these apps and devices and.
Other ways that are meant to bemore efficient, but it's actually
pulling us away from just judging.
Look up at the sky, what is it doing?
Are there clouds coming?
Well, yes, it may rain later, oractually the, the, the sky's quite great.
It's probably gonna rain.
I'll grab a raincoat instead oflooking at our phone app and radar.

(29:56):
So it's that the valuing that connectionand then within that, obviously with
the specifics of the book, which ishow do we do that from a design point
of view, which is what my thesisin, um, Sweden was trying to grapple
with, was how can I, as a designersupport that kind of restoration?

(30:18):
Like what can I build in what, whatis pretty much in every garden that's
talked about as being restorative?
'cause it is quite a nebulous,you know, quality to achieve.
But I think if we can have a foundationthat you can kind of say, I. If you
can put these things in, you've almostgot a guarantee of it being, you know,

(30:39):
it's prob highly probably going to berestorative if you've done it well.
I mean, there's designers out there thatare definitely doing it, but some of
it is just pure instinct rather than.
Actually going, haveI asked this question?
Have I thought about this?
And that's why in the book,I call them considerations.
'cause I'm asking designers, justconsider this, consider how this works

(31:00):
for that user and how it can be doneso that you can include these things.
And it's, you know, it's simple thingsthat most people I think already know to
some degree, which is things like water.
So how can you include water?
And in some circumstances you won't beable to because the infection risk is
too great or safety risk or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
But if you're asking that questionalready, it's like, well, can

(31:22):
we include it in some way?
Maybe it's not an open pond,but maybe it's a bird bath.
How can we include those things becausewe know they're proven to be restorative.
So those two things are the, themain, which is the, um, un valuing
these spaces and also actually likehow much and what they can give us in

(31:45):
terms of restoring us in these times.
And then the second thing that'scome out of the book for me is that
all of that actually brings us backto building community, which we're
so desperately needing right now.
Um, and I'm hearing moreand more talk about it.
So it's great because clearly it's,it's a topic, but it's that really

(32:07):
hard thing to figure out how I.
How do you build community?
And green spaces are just this reallylovely vehicle, I think, to do that.
Um, because you can talk very easily andit's part of the research that it's really
easy to talk while you're gardening.
It's very easy to talk if you'resitting side by side in a green

(32:27):
space because you've got the privacyand the calm and the, you know, the
atmosphere that just supports thatkind of conversation happening.
So I keep coming back in conversationsat the moment to this idea, and I think
I might've said it to you previouslyas well, that, um, we always say it
takes a village to raise a child.
And I feel like we've lostthe village because we don't

(32:49):
talk to our neighbors enough.
We don't like, we engage with people viaapps rather than actually talking to them.
Um, yes, we're global, butwe're not really making that.
And I know this has differentconnotations as well, but we're not
making that more intimate, actual,personal contact with people.
And I think that's what we're losing.

(33:09):
And I just keep seeinghow important that is.
So in therapeutic horticulture,if you look at, you know, what
community gardens do and, and evenjust what gardens themselves do
for people, it builds capacity.
Well, that allows you then to either helpsomebody else or to talk to somebody else.
And so you're making a connection,you are making community.

(33:32):
So I feel, I'm not quite sure howit's all coming to that, but I
feel like it keeps coming back tothat as I've been writing this.
And it's in the evidence as well.
Like a lot of the theories that are outthere about green spaces is that the
more green space we have, and especiallynow in children, we're more empathetic.
Mm-hmm.
We're more happy to help somebody else.

(33:53):
Mm-hmm.
We're more, you know, likewe're just, we're calmer.
Mm. So we have more capacityto help somebody else.
So it's, it's, it's that strange thingthat initially when you hear the comment,
oh, you know, green spaces or gardenswill have you connect with other people.
But it's so true and it's proven like it'sout in the research they're showing it.
And surely, you know, any parent wouldwant their kid to be empathetic and.

(34:18):
Being able to connect to somebodyelse, will put 'em in a green
space because that will, thatwill automatically support that.
Um, just because of what it does to, youknow, their cortisol and their system.
Yeah.
And their attention and everything.
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah.
It's fascinating.

CD (34:35):
So you've got all of this research Yep.
And we've got all of the evidence.
Yeah.
And then what's your journey liketrying to bridge that gap between
evidence and like real world practice?

SS (34:48):
Um, well, the, the book, yeah, doing the book, I guess is exactly
that, because that's what my thesiswas actually called in Sweden, which
started all this, which was, um, turning,turning the research into practice.
And I guess, yeah, that is really the,the whole aim of the book is to say,
look, I realize that especially oncepeople are in the profession, there's

(35:10):
no time to do the academic reading.
Mm. A lot of the academicreading, you can't access unless
you're part of an institution.
And just the time, you know,like they are tiring to read.
Um, and so I've, I've said inthe book, it's like, so I've
done the reading for you.
I've pulled it all together.
Here's what I've found, hopefullyin a slightly easier manner
to read and all in one place.

(35:31):
And then that's again why I say thatthese are considerations because
it's like, I've done the reading,I've done done the research for you.
Here's the findings.
Here's how, what that actuallylooks like in practical terms.
So I've sort of done feel like I'vedone the prep work for others and
hope that that will then allow themto yeah, use the book in whatever way

(35:54):
they choose to put it into practice.
Mm-hmm.
So yeah, hopefully I'm.
Bridging that gap, I think it'llpotentially still be a little
bit academic for some people.
Mm. Which is perhaps the next stepof where I take it, of, of trying to
work out how do I just simplify thesethings or synthesize it in a different
way that makes it even more usable.

(36:16):
I've started doing that at the back ofthe book, um, with the matrix and the
gradients, but it also allows slightlydeeper delving, 'cause that's where
it starts getting more specific again.
So it's that real fine balance betweenproviding a depth of research and
a depth of, I guess, knowledge andunderstanding and curiosity, but also

(36:40):
still keeping it fairly simple to use.
But, um, yeah, I'm hoping this isa bit of a prompt to do exactly
that, which is to bridge that gap.
So other than that,I'll keep working on, it

CD (36:51):
sounds like it's gonna be a great tool for a whole load of different
people in different professions.
So yeah, you've got your academics whomaybe this is new material that they
could introduce into, you know, theirteaching and then it's the practicals
for landscape architects or even homegardens designers who, you know, might

(37:11):
go, oh, I never thought to incorporatewater, or how that could actually benefit.
So, yep.

SS (37:16):
The initial, um, idea was, I guess to predominantly
focus on landscape architects.
Mm-hmm.
Because they're the practitionerswho need that information and don't.
Generally have the time to do it, letalone that their processes don't really
allow for that level of research, theacademics that might just bring a few
different and new viewpoints together.

(37:37):
Mm-hmm.
So absolutely from that point ofview, but it was actually a really
early conversation with a friend ofmine who unfortunately when I met
him, had lost his wife, uh, justabout three to six months earlier.
And we were talking about the gardensand we actually had this conversation
at Marino Gardens in Baldwin.
I think it is.
About how much benefit and balmand soothing you can, respite

(38:01):
you can get from green spaces.
And talking to him, he, the ideaof the book was just germinating.
And I explained to him, I think, Ithink this is what I'd like it to be.
And he said, oh, Sandra, that would'vebeen great to know when my wife was
ill, because we could have adjustedour garden to be that, you know,

(38:25):
within scope or reality I guess.
And so that made me then realizethat actually maybe this has
scope to go beyond just landscape.
So I hope, I hope that is what it will do.
I guess, as I say, predominantlyit will be landscape
architects or garden designers.
Um, but certainly, yeah, I hope that itdoes, it, it feels like it's definitely

(38:48):
a drawing, drawing attention by.
Not necessarily garden designers,like more, you know, whether it's
their home or, or people who areinterested in getting into this.
People who are interestedin therapeutic horticulture.
Mm-hmm.
That kind of thing.
So it does.
Have seem to have a broader reach.
So we'll see.
We'll see about the future of it.

CD (39:08):
Holt, so you've chosen three sentimental gardens.
Let's talk about the first one.
So Alnap.
Mm-hmm.

SS (39:16):
So Alnap is the campus that I was on during my Swedish state.
Uh, so it's a campus, one of two campusesfor the Swedish University of Agricultural
Sciences, which I will now refer to asSLU 'cause it's too much of a mouthful.
Uh, and yeah, that's, so that was,it's the lna Rehab, THAAD God, um,

(39:41):
which is Rehabilitation Garden.
Uh, and it was on the campus.
Now I was very excited about goingto, because when I got the placement
or the place, uh, I said to people.
I'm going to a campus that is, has acastle in a park in a forest by the beach.

(40:03):
I'm like, can you get a moreidyllic setting to go study
landscape architecture?
I don't think so.
So it's in the region of Scornerin southern Sweden, which is,
uh, around the city of Momo.
And that's, I've been there before.
So I knew that I really liked Momo,and it's just across the ditch from
Copenhagen and it's quite a hub forrehabilitation, for stress, because I.

(40:29):
Ika Stick's daughter, who is now inDenmark at the University of Copenhagen.
She did her PhD at Alna and thenobviously went back across the
ditch and created her own gardenthere called the NCA Healing Forest.
And so it, yeah, it was quite a huband as part of my thesis, there was
also one more garden rehabilitationgarden in that area of scorner.

(40:55):
That I looked at.
Unfortunately, that garden, literallythe woman who owned it came to my thesis
presentation and told me that day thatit was closing or it was being sold.

CD (41:04):
Mm.

SS (41:04):
And then, uh, I finished in 2019 and on up Rehab Garden actually closed as
that function at the end of 2019 as well.
So unfortunately, both of thosegardens in my thesis are now
gone or gone in that purpose.
'cause El up obviously is still there,but it's just being used for other things.
But yeah, it's the reason that I pickedthat as sort of my first example is

(41:28):
probably because it just changed mywhole direction of where I was going.
Because as I, as I said to youor you've mentioned already with,
um, people in the environment.
That subject was our second subject, uh,at, and which meant that it was like the
second quarter in, because they do theirunits that you do one subject at a time

(41:49):
for 10 to 12 weeks and then move on.
So it's not like you don't dotwo or three subjects a semester.
You do two or three, but youdo them after each other.
I like that.
Yeah.
It's very concentrated andum, it's good if you love it.
Not so good if you hate it.
Um, but that subject was fascinatingand we did our first introduction
to it was to go to the garden and weall just got told to go find a space,

(42:13):
a spot in the garden that made us.
Feel comfortable and that we wantedto sit or lie or walk or be in for
about, I don't know, half an hour.
Hour.
And so I found a seat and I pulledmyself off a leaf of a stack of
Byzantium, so lambs ear, and I justsat, sat there, kind of stroking that.

(42:37):
And just listening to what washappening around me, different
people found different spots.
So some people were drawn to the pondand sat next to the water on a rock.
Somebody else went and lay on a sheepskinunder a shrub, different people.
So whatever you felt comfortablewith, that is where you were asked
to be and just experience the place.

(42:57):
And I think I walked out of that sessionand said to my fellow students, well, I
know what my thesis is gonna be about.
Which was literally, you know, like, I'mtalking week 10 of, you know, two years.
And they all looked at me and went, what?
And I said, yep.
It's, it's gonna be something about this,like something about therapeutic spaces
and what they can do for us and how, howwe are in them and that sort of thing.

(43:20):
So yeah, that garden's really quiteimportant because without having
gone to Sweden, I'm not sure how Iwould've discovered that here there
is a subject that has been taughtand I've now thankfully, or very
gratefully been able to, um, help withthat, which is therapeutic landscapes
at, um, Melbourne University, whichI believe is coming back next year.

(43:42):
So fingers crossed.
So very grateful to have foundal up Rehab, led God, and just
fascinated by this idea of.
It's the arts and crafts kind of ideaof having rooms in a garden, but it
was done for a very practical reason.
So it's not an arts and craft garden,it's just this idea of rooms that go back

(44:04):
to what you'd mentioned earlier abouthaving capacity to be in different spaces.
So like the seat that I satin for that first experience
was a, a timber swing seat.
Mm-hmm.
Where you are surrounded by hornbeam hedge, and so you can still
hear people but you can't be seen.
You're very private, you'revery enveloped by greenery.

(44:26):
You're sitting in a monksort of perennial planting.
So depending on the time ofyear, it was quite bright.
Uh, very mixed, but surroundedby greenery and there.
It's quite important that they talkor that their paths are gravel so that
you can hear people coming because youwill have people that are at a point
in their treatment, particularly earlyon, where they just don't have the

(44:49):
capacity to deal with somebody else.
Like, not in a nasty way in anything.
Mm-hmm.
Um, just purely like, can'ttalk to somebody right now.
Like, I'm busy holding myselftogether, let alone talking to
somebody else or having some kind.
And it's just that implicit demand fromanother person that you're expected to
be polite or you're expected to engagein some way, and they just can't, you

(45:10):
know, they're so, they're still sostressed that they, they just can't,
and so the gravel is there so that.
Somebody walking near you, you'realerted to, okay, someone's nearby.
All right, I may need to leave this area.
And that's my choice.
I can choose to leave, but I'm alsoalerted to the fact that somebody else
is coming, so I'm being warned that I mayhave to deal with something in a second.

CD (45:33):
Mm.

SS (45:33):
And so that kind of finding coming out of their research was
just fascinating to me that, youknow, like just by choosing your.
Path material you are alreadysupporting somebody being warned.
And one thing that I've definitelytalked about in the book, and potentially
more than possibly academicallyshould have, but it just has rung
so true to me, is the idea of havingtwo escape route for any space.

(45:58):
So there's always two ways in and outat LNAP, which means that if somebody
enters your space, you can still exitwithout having to actually like be
near them or, um, interact with them.
And I think that to me is reallyimportant because if you're feeling at
all threatened or uncomfortable withsomebody else coming into a space, you

(46:18):
don't then wanna feel trapped as well.
You know, you don't wanna be like, oh,well I'm in a corner and you are trying
to come into this space and, and it'snot nice for the other person coming in
either because you are going, oh, I'vejust intruded on you and actually you
are in that seat, so I'll leave again.
So it, it's sort of like you canavoid the awkwardness by have
just having two ways in and out.

(46:38):
So again, very easy design thingto do that actually really helps
somebody, especially at thatearly stage of, of treatment.
So that was one space was thesefour rooms that were all, uh, hedged
by the horn beam, which obviouslychanges color over the year as well.
And then there was a space witha small pond that had a hammock

(46:59):
between two, and you could be quitehidden if you were in that hammock.
And there was a gentleman who hadworked before I got there, worked at
SLU for, um, as an academic, but he'dhad, I think a bike or a car accident.
And so he kind of became his owntest case because he had the brain
injuries that he had to work out again.

(47:20):
And, and he, um, helped.
I don't, I think, I think the initialpaper wasn't written by him just
because at that point he couldn't,but he, he could tell somebody.
And so they helped him writeit, wrote a paper about how.
As he was going through the stress ofhis rehabilitation that, uh, rocks,
rocks and water were this really soothingelement because it put no pressure on him.

(47:46):
He said, it's, it's a sign of permanence.
It's a sign of age.
It's, you know, it's somethingthat's not gonna change.
It's, and it just asks, nothingof me, doesn't ask me to engage.
It doesn't ask to be cared for.
It doesn't.
It's just this really supportiveelement that demands nothing from me

(48:07):
that gives me a place to be grounded.
So, yeah, so things likethat we're all in the garden.
And then really interestingly, theyhad a corner of it that, where they
were literally testing, 'cause boththe Rehab Garden and also a space
called the Landscape Lab were very muchthese one-on-one, one-to-one scale.
Laboratories for testing.

(48:28):
You know, doing the researchand actually trying stuff out.
So how to, you know, how do we thin trees?
How do we create this?
How do we make these spaces what they are?
Mm. And so one space was quite hardscaped,so it was concrete on the ground.
It was, there was a concretewater rule, so still water,
but in a very different way.

(48:49):
And then they'd brought in someraised beds that could be reached by
people in wheelchairs if they needed.
But also just generally veryeasy to access and contained.
And there was a geodesicdome there as well.
'cause they had twospaces that were seasonal.
Shelter.
What's a geodesic dome?
Basically a half circle.
So literally a half dome, butit's made out of triangles.

CD (49:12):
Oh

SS (49:12):
wow.
So the whole structure is, I think it'sactually a lot of what the Eden Project
is like, but yeah, so it's, yeah, it's adome, but it's made out of triangles that
interlock to each other to create a frame.
And the Scandinavian gardens, especially Ifound, are very big on having greenhouses
or a dome or something like that, becausethey know that seasonally they just can't.

(49:34):
And the nice thing about it is aswell, is that all of those spaces
either let sunlight in or literallya see-through so you can look out.
So you're still enjoying the landscape,but you're sheltered from the
wind and the rain and you're warm.
Yeah, exactly.
Yes, exactly.
So yeah, this hard space or hardscape,so obviously it has the shelter

(49:56):
and it's got, you know, it's gotdefinitely good qualities in terms
of people being able to reach theraised beds and, and things like that.
But, uh, it's definitely a space that lesspeople feel comfortable in because of the
hards, scoping 'cause of the concrete.
And it's just not soft enough,it's missing that greenery.
So yes, there's some plants, but it'sdefinitely missing the soft aspect.

(50:19):
So they found that basically peopleeither didn't like that space at all,
which interesting that, I mean it's greatthat they still tried it 'cause it's the
sort of thing that a lot of studies hadfound, oh, there's definitely a preference
for natural versus urban spaces.
But these guys actually testedit and were like, okay, how
do you feel while you're here?
Or they were able to be there, butlater in their treatment when they felt

(50:41):
more comfortable and more sociable.
How interesting.
Yep.
So yeah, so it's just areally interesting space.
Feels very homey.
Um, you walk in and one of the nicethings is as well as you can't be
anywhere but Sweden because it'sgot the fallough red of the timber.
Um, cladding of the house and justthose lovely aspects of, well, it's

(51:02):
Danish hugger, but that cozinessthat the Swes and or Scandinavians
generally are, are just really good at.
So having, you know, like they wouldshare their harvests and as things were
being harvested from the food garden, itwould, it would be out on drying racks.
So one, you could either taste it orat least see that it was happening.
So it's very much about embracingthat interaction with nature,

(51:25):
like it was being in the space.
And obviously most of the therapy wasabout that, but also the food side of it.
And then even like in the Meadow area,they had what would've essentially.
The kind of a gazebo style structure,but it was planted with hops so
that as that grew up and over.
So just this very integrated approach tohow the garden was and just offered loads

(51:48):
of variety of, of choice, which is reallyimportant in, in restorative gardens, is
to have that choice of where do I feelcomfortable today to be Like, do I wanna
be in a more formalized space where.
I can tell people have been here andthey're caring for the space, but also am
I expected to help care for that space.

(52:08):
And as I said earlier, it's thatthat connotation also of if it's
manicured, I'm not allowed totouch it because it's too pristine.
So yeah.
So just really a very interestingand practical kind of tangible way
of understanding how all of thesedifferent qualities impact on what we
perceive and how we exist in a space.

CD (52:31):
Shall we move on to your second garden?
Sure.
In Gart Naval, Maggie Center?
Mm-hmm.

SS (52:36):
So this is, this is my favorite Maggie's, and I've seen quite
a few because as I said, for mythesis in Sweden, I looked at
six case studies at that time.
So three were stress, stressmanagement, or stress rehabilitation.
And three were cancer care.
So there were three Maggies in, Iwas in Sweden from 2017 to 2019.

(53:00):
And in the mid that Midsummer Break in2018, I traveled around the UK looking at
Maggie's, um, which are phenomenal spaces.
And yeah, so great that they existbecause they support the cancer care of
existing cancer centers, but they're allabout making the institutional, which by

(53:20):
necessity is what it is, but they lookat turning that into the domestic scale.
So they're always attached to a cancercare center or cancer care hospital.
They don't provide specific medical care.
They're there to support that.
So they're there to support theinformation, just the sort of
mental and, um, pastoral care andto give people a, a space to be

(53:43):
that's not institutional basically.
So they're, they are what wecall designed by star architects
who, you know, kindly do that.
On a pro bono basis.
So they're amazing buildings.
And as opposed to the gardens I'vegot to know more recently, which are
Horatio's Gardens that are connectedto spinal injury, the Maggie Centers

(54:05):
started their focus as the buildingand obviously being in the uk where
is not always conducive to being inthe garden or in an outdoor space.
So it makes sense thatthat's where they started.
I think they're starting to now focus alittle more on, on the outdoor spaces,
and they've certainly had people likePeter Rudolph and, um, Dan Pearson and

(54:26):
Tom Stewart Smith amongst many others,designing their, their garden spaces.
But also in some context, there'sjust no room for, for garden.
So St. Barts in London, just,there's, there's hardly any space.
It's, it's on the rooftop andit's great, but it's there.
There's nothing further becausewhere they were allowed to build
it, there is no outdoor space.
Okay, so Gart Naval.

(54:53):
So Gart Naval is in Glasgow andthey are very lucky to actually have
quite a bit of space around them.
So at Gart Naval, you actually, you findthe carpark and then you sort of look up
the hill and there's a group of trees.
And actually if you pick through them,that's where you see the building.
So they, it's very nestled into itsspace at the top of a slight hill.

(55:16):
And yeah, so you walk up and into thespace through a little Birch cops,
which are one of my favorite trees, and.
It's just this really quite, quiteclosed, sheltered kind of building.
And it's created at Remco House, Ithink his name is Dutch, um, designer.

(55:39):
So it's a building that's almost likea bunch of rectangles that's been
connected to create a type of donut.
So in the middle you have a courtyard,which is beautiful and lush.
So all of the rooms essentiallylook out onto the courtyard.
And then a lot of them also look outonto the birch cops at the beginning.

(56:00):
And then as you head towards theback of the property, it becomes a
mixed beach forest, which alreadyexisted and they worked into.
And so you're basically surrounded bygrainery and the, the design, which
was created by Lily Jenks studioin collaboration with someone else,
whose name I can't recall, sorry.

(56:20):
Um.
That she was the daughter of, um,ma Maggie Kza Jenks, who Maggie's
is named after, and CharlesJenks, who was an architect.
And basically the whole story of Maggie'sis that Maggie had cancer and, and her
experience was, this isn't good enough.
This is, this is not how people should bespoken to about this kind of condition.

(56:44):
This is not the type of place wewanna be in, in where you're being
told about that kind of diagnosis.
This, it has to be better.
And so in 1995, uh, the firstMaggie Center in Edinburgh, which
I did visit this time, whichis also beautiful, was created.
Unfortunately, Maggie knew itwas happening, and apparently she

(57:04):
actually passed away with the plans.
Sitting on her bed.
So she knew it was happening, butunfortunately didn't see it to
completion, but it's certainly alegacy that's gone on ever since.
And Lily Jenks, her daughter, is alandscape architect and created gut navel.
And like I said, it really is myfavorite because it just feels so,

(57:24):
you just feel hugged by greenery.
Like it's just this warm,loving, comforting embrace of
greenery no matter where you are.
It's, it features as the cover of my book,which is one of my favorite spots, which
is actually of quite narrow, um, hallway.
But on one side it has all glasstowards the beach forest, and to

(57:48):
the other side is full mirror.
So you are mirroring that green landscape.
So you come around the corner of this,this little hallway that takes you
around to where the staff area is, andthere's a sitting nook at each end,
but you walk in and it's just like thisex gentle but explosion of greenery.
And so it's, even though you are,you're really indoors, like you're with

(58:10):
hard stuff, it's mirror and glass, butit feels so soft, like it just feels
like you're, you're in a greenhouseand it's just this beautiful, and
then there's a timber ceiling as well.
So it's natural materials andit's just this beautiful space.
And as you walk around, because allof the Maggie centers are completely
open, there's nothing that's blocked.

(58:31):
So anyone can access the staff area.
It's not like a closed dooroffice or anything like that.
The part of the Maggie's brief is alwaysto have the kitchen be the center space.
So it has to have a table for at least12 people because they do a lot of
mentoring and, and pastoral care there.
It's about being able at any time togo and help yourself to a cup of tea.

(58:51):
But at Gart Naval, no matter which roomyou're in, you always can see greenery.
Like there's nothing that.
Where you don't have a view toa garden space of some sort.
Um, yeah, and it's just hugely comforting.
It's a really beautiful,very adaptable space as well.
Very flexible in terms ofbeing able to close walls.
Um, so if they do a group yoga session,they can close a section off, but

(59:16):
otherwise they'll leave it open sothat you can see the birch cops.
And the way that Lily actuallydesigned it is that the building,
um, sits slightly lower.
So there's like a little berm wherethe birch cops actually start.
So you're quite nestled, but then becauseyou're looking out over the hill towards.
The car park.

(59:37):
It goes from being nestled and all,you know, bunkered down and really
settled into the earth to looking atover it and being almost cantilever
it, but you're looking into thecanopy Mm. Of the, the beach street.
So it's just, I just find it a reallylovely, and I, as I say, Gart Naval
is really lucky and they definitelyrecognized this as well, that they

(59:59):
are very lucky to have had the space'cause that beach forest out the back
was part of the property already.
So Lily designed around it.
Um, but it's just, yeah, it's a reallylucky can't, and this is, I think when
I first met you and was talking aboutwhen I asked people for examples for
this book, I would, you know, haveyou got any green spaces that they
just really made you feel better?

(01:00:19):
And people would probably90% of the time go, oh, okay.
So a therapeutic space.
And I'd say no.
Not necessarily like, yes, itmight be the therapeutic, but
that's not what I'm looking for.
Like, that's not, it doesn'tnecessarily need to be the intent.
And it certainly doesn'tneed to be its purpose.
It's a, I would say if to people,if you can just think of a, a green

(01:00:40):
space you went to, doesn't matterif it was private, public, wherever,
that you walked out and just came, ah.
And humane in, um, spirit level in Sydney.
He talks about it's the exhalefactor and it really is.
'cause that's how Iexplained it to people.
And then he called it that and I was like,that's it, that's what I'm talking about.

(01:01:01):
That's exactly, it's the exhale factor.
You walk into the space and you exhalebecause your shoulders drop, you relax
and you know that you are alreadystarting to feel better because, and
that's how Gart Naval makes me feel.
Mm-hmm.
And I think a lot of other people, but

CD (01:01:16):
yeah.
I've asked the other podcasts,I've done, one of the questions
I asked people was, how do youfeel when you are in your garden?
Mm-hmm.
Or a space that they love.
And it's that exhale

SS (01:01:27):
excel factor.

CD (01:01:28):
Yeah.

SS (01:01:28):
Mm-hmm.

CD (01:01:28):
And it's, it's a, it's a relief.
And like you said, it's thebody's physical response to relax.

SS (01:01:36):
Yep.
And that's where theevidence comes from as well.
Is it lower with our cortisol levels?
It ups our dopamine, ourheart rate comes down.
It's all like, it is a real thing.
It's not just us going, oh, I feel better.
It's, you know.
No, no.
It's been proven.
It's been proven to the wazo actually.
Believe us.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(01:01:56):
No, it's a real, it's a real thing,but it's, it's a, because there's,
we don't have a name for it yet.
It, I think that Hugh does put itreally well of, it's the exhale

CD (01:02:05):
factor.
The exhale factor.
Yep.
Love it.
Yeah.
Uh, shall we move on to your third garden?
Mm-hmm.
Due to volunteering, you havequite a fondness for the Royal
Talbot Rehabilitation Center.

SS (01:02:17):
Yeah, so, uh, I volunteer once a week with Steven Wells,
uh, who's a horticulturaltherapist and nurse and royal.
So once I'd done my thesis, which was theresearch sort of part of where all this
started in Sweden, I came back and I knewI would need to do a thesis here as well.

(01:02:38):
It's fine.
Most people looked at me like Iwas nuts, just accepting that.
And I thought, oh, there'sno point arguing with that.
Just do it.
And so for me it was about thentrans, like trying to translate
or check were the same thingsthat I was finding in Scandinavia.
True here.
And so here it was about trying to findsome gardens or green spaces to look at

(01:03:00):
that I could test what I'd found against.
And for me at that point it was about canI recognize these qualities and can I find
them and are they actually showing up?
And therefore, like how, how are weseeing people use the spaces that
actually show us that it's working?
'cause there wasn't as muchresearch here about those spaces.
'cause obviously was, wascreated for that purpose.

(01:03:23):
Whereas here, that'snot what Royal Talbot.
Rehab center was built for, so thefriend's garden was built in 2005.
Uh, and then, then theadjoining part of it was 2007.
And it was basically the whole, the twospaces that today are one space, which are

(01:03:43):
just outside of Steven's office, where hedoes horticultural therapy or therapeutic
horticulture with, uh, clients.
Is green space thatsurrounds a covered walkway.
So it's a walkway that staff andpatients have to go through anyway.
It creates a walking circuit for alot of people who are learning to
deal with a wheelchair for the firsttime or learning to walk again.

(01:04:07):
Uh, it's obviously a reallyrelaxing space to be in.
There's loads of staff that will havetheir lunch in there or just pop out for
a phone conversation, things like that.
And one space especially getsused quite a lot for sort of more
private conversations or just whereyou wanna have a conversation,
but you don't wanna be indoors.
And so the space definitelygets used quite a bit.

(01:04:27):
And yesterday when I was therefor my session, I had two.
Family members from patients whoactually stopped me and said, oh,
you're doing a great job in the garden.
Thanks so much.
And, and how valuable it is.
So it's that, that's amazing to hear.
Yeah.
And so as for my thesis, I lookedat the Royal Talbot, um, because I,

(01:04:48):
because just before I went overseas,I heard Steven speak, which was the
result of his, uh, Churchill Fellowship.
So he'd done a Churchill Fellowship aroundthe maintenance and sort of longevity
and how, what systems need to be put inplace to make these kinds of spaces last.
And he'd presented at the Botanic Garden.
And so I think at the time,I nearly dropped to my knees

(01:05:10):
and groveled, how can I help?
And then, and then when I came back,did the same thing of just, please,
please, please, how can I help?
Like how can I be part of this?
Uh, and thankfully they have a volunteerprogram, and I, by that stage knew Steven.
And so, yeah, came back, wantedto find out how the Scandinavian
side of things fit here.
So I chose the Royal Talbot RehabilitationCenter Garden or that main garden, and.

(01:05:34):
Two or no three place spaces atthe Peter Mac Cancer Care Center.
So same kind of audience to adegree other than the specializing
in acquired brain injury orspinal injury at the Royal Talbot.
And found very similar,very similar thing.
I mean, it's, at the end ofthe day, it's western, western
cultures versus western cultures.

(01:05:55):
So very similar needs.
And, uh, yeah, watched people usethe space basically for my thesis.
And from there again, just went the oh,oh oh oh, please, please, can I help?
And so I started volunteeringthere just as COVID started.
Oh.
So I think I, I literally gotmy induction done and the next

(01:06:16):
day we went into lockdown.
Oh.
Uh, but I've been there for, well,technically for four years now.
But the first year I think we couldsay that I wasn't really there.
Uh, so I am the chiefpossum poo and bird bath.
Cleaner and renew.
Um, but it's interesting 'cause whenyou sort of say that, and I don't

(01:06:36):
mind that at all because that's,you know, it needs to be done.
But the mag pies love it.
They love the bluebirdbath getting refreshing.
Like, there's actually at the momenta family where we know it's, there's
a young one and they watch me.
They're waiting for the waterto get renewed, and then
they'll come and bathe in it.
Wow.
So it's really, you know, you, youknow, you're making a difference

(01:06:57):
when bath time's about to happen.
I'm cleaning your water.
It's fine.
Thanks.
And yeah, just realizing that how muchpeople use the space, so, you know,
I'm blowing away the leaves and I cantell that it's making a difference.
So it's just that, that littlebit of support from that.
And it's, it's what the research talksabout as signs of care, which is that.

(01:07:19):
It's not about being pristine, butit's about showing that yes, there's
somebody there who's gonna make sureyou're not walking on a pile of them.
Or like, I think last week it actuallywas that, um, there was a crop of
ILDs that had the leaves all overthem and I, you know, pulled them
all out or as much as I could out.
And so therefore you could all ofa sudden see the blossoms that were

(01:07:41):
happening and they're so vibrant.
Like this beautiful transitionfrom purple to pink.
Mm-hmm.
And just after I did that, a coupleof staff members walked past and one
said to the other, oh, look at those.
Look how they're popping out.
And I was like, yep, that's'cause I just moved the leaves.
'cause you wouldn't haveseen them otherwise.
And it was just that littlething that you think, yep, this
is, this is making a difference.
And it's the fact that a staffmember is noticing that now we

(01:08:05):
talk often with Steven about.
The impact of, even for that staffmember who you can tell is rushing
through the space, it's still twominutes of respite on their eyes.
You know, whether it's the colorgreen, whether it's the fractals,
whether it's like they're not in a hardspace, so even if they're not noticing
it, they're still getting respite.

(01:08:25):
And then the, the bigger evidentrespite of happening through
the patients that are there.
And obviously if they then do thetherapeutic horticulture with Steven, it's
even more because they're touching it,they're feeling it, they're smelling it.
But yeah, it's just that.
I guess goes back to what thebook's about of that raised
awareness of the value of this.
Like how much better this is making youfeel and, and even if it's just that

(01:08:49):
two minute respite between your jobs andmaybe, maybe that person will walk a touch
slower because they're understanding that,or you know, like at the moment there's
a particular group of staff who comeand sit in the same spot every time, and
now it's the first time in three yearsthat, but they're now doing it regularly.
And so understanding that yes, youget that respite and calm and stop or.

(01:09:14):
What Hugh, again talks aboutwith the Excel factor, but that
he did, he looks at specificallydialing down stimulation for that.
So not having, you know, this amazingbloom cacophony kind of thing.
It's actually, no, let's justdo green on, green on green
on green on a bit of silver.
Mm-hmm.
Because this is about dialingyour stimulation down, so

(01:09:35):
there's pockets like that.
Yeah.
So I think a lot of it is.
Respite that people may noteven really be aware of.
Mm-hmm.

CD (01:09:44):
I love that it's not just for the patients, it's also for staff.
'cause I remember when I used to bea nurse and you'd have morning tea or
lunch and you'd go to the staff room,but it was this tiny little building,
um, not building tiny little room,just, you know, between other, between
patient's room and the nurse's station.
Yep.
And you know, thinking back you'd, you'dmake your tea and you'd sit down and

(01:10:07):
you'd flip through magazines or something.
You didn't really get to turn off.
'cause you know, people would knockon the door and, you know, need
some drugs checked or something.
But I love the idea that ifyou can leave the ward Yep.
And go outside and it just removesyou, like you said, from that
constant stimulation and needing tobe like he there sort out everything.

(01:10:28):
And just to have that exhale factor.
I can imagine you go back tothe ward after that break.
Refreshed.
Ready and, and better.
Yes.
Better nurse or whoever you are.
Yeah.
For the patients.

SS (01:10:42):
Well, your atten, I mean, there's one of the theories behind
a lot of the research is attention,attention restoration theory.
So even that, your attention is gonna berestored, like your focused attention,
because they talk about attention deficit,that you're just being drained, drain,
drained, but if you go into a green space,it actually restores your attention.
So, yeah.
And it 40 seconds has other,um, other research has done.

(01:11:06):
So looking at a green rooftop, 40 secondsalready made people more attentive, more
accurate in, you know, certain tasks.
So it doesn't take much.
And it's even as much as obviously the.
And this is, I call it thepriority of green space access.
The priority is always to get somebodyinto a green space if you can.

(01:11:27):
Like you wanna be out there, youwanna feel the wind, you wanna hear
the noises, you wanna touch things.
So it's about being as physicaland experience as possible.
But if that's not possible, whether it'sin healthcare because of infection control
or somebody might not be in a state wherethey are able to walk, then cite or views

(01:11:48):
onto an actual space is the second best.
And third best is okay if you can't doany of that, or as in the case that,
um, the O Austin, um, in Heidelbergis that there was a walkway that.
Looked out onto two really plain rooftops.
So just hardscape, hardscape, hardscape,nothing but you know, concrete tiles

(01:12:08):
and, and yes, a little bit of sky,but not really like, really nothing
that even connected you, as we saidearlier, to nature or the outside world.
And so what got installed,there was a photograph that got
specifically commissioned for thisspace, which is of Lange Forest.
And so this decal now coversboth sides of the walkway.

(01:12:28):
And so it's like for 50 meters youare walking through Langi forest.
Yes, it's only an image,but it's a photograph.
So it does, you know, feel quite real.
It's better than looking at ahardscape that couldn't be changed
'cause you couldn't green thosegreen roofs or those roofs and.
And staff have actually said toSteven, thank you so much, because

(01:12:50):
it is this little moment of respite.
Yes, I know.
It's, they're not real trees, butit feels like it, you know, and it's
just that way of bringing nature inat that very, very fundamental level.
So if you can't have somebody walkthrough a garden like the people
at Royal Talbot Rehab Center do,you can at least give them that.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and yeah, it helps on so many levels.

(01:13:12):
So, and, and that's what the evidenceshows, and there's much more evidence now.
I think there's been a realturn even before COVID, but
COVID turned certainly, uh.
Elevated that whole need, and it goesback to exactly what you were saying
about the staff room because peopleweren't meant to be in the staff room.
So it's like, well, wheredo we put them then?
Because if you've got no space forthem outside or no space to gather

(01:13:35):
or have your cup of tea or to meet.
And so all these spaces outsidegot created and that awareness
got raised, which is a good thing.
Obviously now we're almost backto normal, but, but I think
that awareness got raised.
It's, it's that idea that, you know,if we can get people, give them the
opportunity to go and have those spaces,that staff are a much greater focus in

(01:14:00):
a lot of the research now because yes,it's great for the visitors mm-hmm.
For the visitors and the, theactual patients themselves.
And there's, you know, a really famousstudy from Roger Ulrich in 1984 that
everyone is still quoting because itwas the first thing that actually proved
people that were in a room with a greenview got better, faster, and, and more

(01:14:20):
easily than people with a brick view.
Mm-hmm.
Like a brick wall.
Um, but.
Staff are the fo are focus now as wellbecause there's a lot of nursing burnout.
Um, and so yeah, like Roger Ulwick hasactually obviously continued his research
and when he visited the Swedish schoolthat I was at, he talked about a study

(01:14:41):
that was about to come out, which wasabout some green roofs in America and
how they were specifically designedfor the respite of nursing staff.
'cause they needed these spacesoutside just to to Totally.
And I think it's, as you say, notonly is it the type of space that you
are in, if it's a, a room rather thanoutside, but it's also that change.

(01:15:03):
Mm. You're not in that same environment.
You're actually getting thatbreak, you know, it's different.
And then obviously there's allthe benefits of the color green
calms, it's the fractals, it's,you know, it's all of those things.
But it just all, yeah,it all works together.
So important.
Help

CD (01:15:18):
us feel better.
Yeah.
And make us better.
Yeah.
To go back and be better at our work.
Yeah.
Better for the patient, and weall have a better experience.
Yep.
Well,

SS (01:15:27):
that's the, as I was saying earlier about how we're more empathetic,
that's actually connected to attentionrestoration theory, is that if your
attention, if you are fatigued attentionwise, you're actually less empathetic.
Like you, they, they've done testswhere people are less likely to
help somebody else in need ifthey're drained of attention.
And you just think, whoa, we all needto get into a garden quickly, please.

(01:15:49):
So that we help each otheragain, especially night staff.
No, only joking and Well, all of everyone.
Yeah.
But then I guess that's the nextsort of, um, nuance of how do you.
Can you put lights in a garden sothat they too can access that space?
You know that it's not just daytime.
Mm. And you've got the wholeconundrum of, you know, light Yeah.

(01:16:10):
Pollution and that sort of stuff.
But, but I think it, you know,certainly it can be done, but I think
that's where we're now heading withthe research is that we're, we're
starting to get into those nuancesof how do we make this successful?
And I think it comes back to what you wereasking about what the value of the book
or the, the idea behind the book is, is ifwe value these thing we'll invest in them.

(01:16:32):
Mm-hmm.

CD (01:16:33):
Well, it sort of ties into my last question before we
hit some quick fire questions.
Mm-hmm.
If you could share one piece of adviceinto the ear of every city planner or
garden designer today, what would it be?
Just

SS (01:16:48):
build more

CD (01:16:48):
of them.

SS (01:16:49):
Mm. Yeah, just like put greenery wherever you possibly can and,
and it's not actually that hard.
Like it doesn't have to be difficult.
Yes.
There's lots of, you know, like oftenwith street planting, it's, oh, well it
can't be a fruit tree because then thefruit will fall and people will slip.
And I understand all that.
But yes, there's lots of obstacles,but actually there's a lot more that

(01:17:10):
can be done, uh, and a lot more thancould, that could be embraced to just
put more greenery, because, especially.
I think this is worldwide, butespecially in Australia, when you look
at comparative, you know, aerial photosof, of suburbs from 30 years ago to
now, there is no green space left.
Like they, all the blocks have shrunkand the buildings have got bigger.

(01:17:35):
Like we are now the, the countrythat has the largest footprint
of buildings, which is appalling.
And I'm so ashamed that that's us.
'cause it used to be America.
Uh, but we are now, we nowhave the biggest houses.
And I just think to change thatfocus from, you don't need three
rooms that have, uh, TV in them.

(01:17:56):
You don't need a butler's pantry.
You probably don't need theextra bathroom that you have.
Even if it's a nice to have,how many people actually
need that walk-in wardrobe?
It's far more important toactually get some of that.
Access to green space thanit is the other way around.
And I just, I think if, if we did more ascouncils to actually really to basically

(01:18:16):
mandate that, so a bit of carrot and stickof going, no, you actually don't get to
build your house from fence to fence.
You have to have more green space.
Not because, well actually multi.
Focused.
Yes, we need it because weneed the permeable surface.
So for the planet it has to happen,but also for you, it has to happen.

(01:18:38):
Like, I'm sorry, if you can't figure outthat this is good for you, then we'll
mandate it because this is better foryour, for your health and wellbeing.
And then beyond the actual personalboundaries, also integrating that
into just urban planning generally,plant, plant, street trees, like why
is the west less green than the east?

(01:18:59):
That's ridiculous.
There's no reason for that.
As far, you know, if you come down to,yes, it's probably money connected, but
realistically there's no reason for that.
Why?
Why is the west of Melbourne anyworse off than the east of Melbourne?
That should not be the case.
So yeah, that would be my, pleasejust, just bring back lots of it.
'cause the more we lose it, theharder it's gonna be to bring it back.

(01:19:20):
'cause we're just ruining thesoil and not making it accessible.
And it's for, for usindividually and the planet.
I think so.
Yeah.
So good.

CD (01:19:32):
Are you ready for some quick fire questions?
I hope so.
Okay.
See how I go.
Which do you prefer?
Oh gosh.
Writing books or designing gardens?

SS (01:19:42):
Well, I haven't designed any gardens to be fair, so pros
probably I would prefer to do that.
But, um, no writing bookshas been good so far.
So yeah, based on experience, can'treally pick anything but write a book.

CD (01:19:55):
Okay.
What is a green space or agarden anywhere in the world
that you still dream of visiting?

SS (01:20:03):
Oh gosh.
I think the Eden Project is thefirst one that just comes to mind.
I nearly got there this time.
Uh, yeah, the Eden Project.
I think, but there's,yeah, that list is endless.
But that's the, that'sthe first one on the list.
That's a, that's just onethat I can come up with.
Which other one?
Oh, Beth Chatto.
That's the other one I didn't get to.
And looking forward to goingback to Japan, 'cause there's

(01:20:24):
just amazing gardens there.
But yeah, like I say, list is endless.
So we'll just pick Eden Project.

CD (01:20:29):
Okay.
In one word, how doesyour garden make you feel?
Good.
Awesome.
If you could gift one living thing,so plant, seed or tree to every
person on earth, what would it be?
To every person.

SS (01:20:49):
The tree that first came to mind, but I know it's not everybody's taste
and there's an issue with it in thatit's not particularly long lived.
Like it only lives for about 25, 30 years.
But maybe that wouldactually be a good thing.
Um, silver Birch, Bula, Pendo.
Mm-hmm.
Because I love them.
They're just beautiful.
Beautiful.
But you have bar in saying thatI, you couldn't have just one.

(01:21:10):
Everyone would have tohave at least three.
'cause you have to have them as aCox, and I didn't talk about this
before, but the landscape lab at nar.
So part of the setup of that is thatit's these various spaces and they
would testing how big a, like howwide a space, et cetera do you need to
actually feel that you're in a forest.
'cause they, they're trying to work outhow do we do these things in urban spaces.

(01:21:33):
So like the um, me, it's not.
Miyasaki method.
I think that's the really dense microforests right now that are coming out
that we're trying to work out likehow much space do you actually need
in an urban environment to feel thatyou are completely immersed in, um, a
forest and it's only about 10 meters.
Like it's not much.
So 10, 10 by 10, you'dpretty much feel like that.

(01:21:54):
And so there's that.
There's a part of the landscape labforest at which is all birchers beautiful,
and I would just walk in, look up andjust see blue sky and the dancing.
Dancing Birchers.
I've got so many videos of it and I,yeah, a friend came from Australia
to visit me there and I said, I'vegotta take you to my favorite spot.

(01:22:17):
This is, this is it.
It's the dancing birchers.
So that's why I'd give everyone a 'cause.
Then if you had three and the wind blew,you'd could sit stand in the middle
and look up and have your dancing.
Oh, I love it.
That's so good.

CD (01:22:30):
Okay, last one?
Mm-hmm.
One person you'd love to have a couplewith and hear their garden stories

SS (01:22:36):
go through G.
Who was lived, uh, late 18 hundreds.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and was, uh, very famous for her,uh, perennial and colorful borders.
Uh, and she really understoodcolor, like how color works.
So she would create a border that.
Like starts with say blues and then goesinto grays and then becomes orange so that

(01:23:00):
your eye has been saturated with the blue.
And the blue thereby affectshow you see the orange, so the
orange becomes even more vibrant.
So the fact that she understoodthat and did it when she could
hardly see herself, not sure howcantankerous she would've been, 'cause
I've sort of heard that as well.
But she just sounded amazingand I've just been gifted a book
about her designs with children.

(01:23:22):
Thank you, Andrea.
And, uh, I can't wait to read it.
So, yeah, that's, I think that's,that's been my first person.
There's plenty, but that's the firstperson that I would wanna have a
conversation with and just go feed meinformation so that I can learn from you.

CD (01:23:35):
Absorb it all.
Yeah.
Very, very

SS (01:23:37):
knowledgeable woman and

CD (01:23:38):
very creative

SS (01:23:39):
as well.

CD (01:23:40):
So how can we find out, how can people find more about you and your book?

SS (01:23:45):
Mm-hmm.
So the book at the moment is stillon presale, but as of the end of
June will be, should be availablethrough Ingram Spark, who's the
distributor that I'm working through.
It's an independently publishedbook, uh, and it's print on demand.
So the idea behind that was never tohave the glut of stock, but also it

(01:24:06):
means that if somebody is in the US andbuys it, it will get printed in the us.
If somebody buys it in Australia,it'll get printed in Melbourne.
So it's a little bit more,um, sustainable in that way.
And that is available onhuman naturescapes.net.
Now human nature is just one nin the middle, so that's, that's,
um, it may pop up otherwise.

(01:24:28):
Uh, but yeah, human Naturescapes onen. Net, that's where that's available.
And the aim of the website, once thebook is actually out there is also
to, I will add basically deep divea little further into some of the
stuff that couldn't go into the book.
I definitely planning on talking a littlebit more about Horatio's Gardens and

(01:24:49):
Maggie's and that sort of thing, um, sothat there should be new elements that
might be of interest there as well.
So that's the, where the book isavailable, but as I say, as of late
June, it should be available in.
General online stocksof of various providers.
And I'm at the moment goinground to try and, um, look at

(01:25:10):
who will stock it as bookshops.
So hopefully keep an eye out inyour independent bookstores and
please message me if you have abookstore that you'd like it in.
And then Instagram, I am humanunderscore nature underscore.
Escapes.
Oh yeah.
Awesome.
And that's, as I've said to you the otherday, when we caught up at a Encouraging

(01:25:31):
Women in Horticulture event, this isthe year of the great unknown, so you
never know where you're gonna find me.

CD (01:25:37):
Hopefully everywhere.
Well, I'll put the website and Instagramhandles in the show notes as well.
Perfect.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Awesome.
Well this has been an absolute delight.
I've learned so much.
I have a list of places to go andadd to my to visit list one day and
a whole heap of plants to look up.
But yeah, it's just been anhonor listening to your stories.

(01:25:59):
Thank you.
Listening to your journey, and I'mjust so excited for what's to come
for you and to see how the wholefield of, you know, matching up.
Therapy and horticulture developsand the results from your work.
Well done.
Thank so much.

SS (01:26:14):
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity.
It's definitely a growing field.
Uh, yeah, it is.
It's exciting.
Some, somewhat frustrating sometimes'cause we'd all like it to happen faster,
but definitely a great journey to beon and something great to be part of.
So yeah, hopefully my littlecontribution helps somehow somewhere.

CD (01:26:33):
What I love about Sandra's story is how it proves that sometimes
the most important research happenswhen we pay attention to what
we already know in our bodies.
We've always known that clean spaceshelp us feel better, and Sandra's just
spent years figuring out exactly whyand how we can create more of them.

(01:26:55):
Her work is both urgent but hopeful.
Hopeful because thesolutions are often simple.
Plant more trees givepeople more urban forests.
Urgent because we are losing the veryspaces that restore our attention
and make us more empathetic tobigger houses on smaller blocks.

(01:27:16):
When Sandra describes gravel paths, asacts of kindness or mag pies waiting
for their weekly bird bath refresh, I'mreminded that meaningful research gives
us the language to fight for what we need.
To prove that green spaces aren't luxury,they're therapeutic, or medicine that

(01:27:39):
you can find Sandra's book, restoreat Human Nature, just one N with two
words, scapes.net, and follow heron Instagram at Human naturescapes.
If you enjoyed today'sconversation, consider subscribing
wherever you do podcasts.

(01:28:00):
New episodes are released weeklyish, and you can listen to older
episodes anytime on Apple or Spotify.
A big thank you to Hayden Schuler fromVorea Gardening for the Theme Music,
and Tom Dowding for audio support.
This is The SentimentalGardener Podcast produced.
And edited by me cast doubting.

(01:28:23):
This podcast was recorded on thetraditional lands of the War, Wang
and Ong people of the East K nations.

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