July 29, 2025 • 23 mins
In this episode of ShiftShapers, host David A. Saltzman sits down with Reuven Shelef, CEO of Out of the Box Consulting and creator of the Untangling Complex Challenges methodology. Reuven shares why our brains default to negativity when faced with uncertainty—and how to move from emotional reactivity to clarity and action.
With a blend of logic and emotional insight, Reuven helps leaders and teams understand how to recognize internal blockers, reframe stress, and break through stuck patterns—professionally and personally.
🤖 Sponsored by BenePower
BenePower is an AI-powered platform helping advisors build high-impact, self-insured health plans quickly and seamlessly. By integrating best-in-class point solutions and eliminating inefficiencies, BenePower reduces costs, improves member outcomes, and positions advisors as industry leaders.
🔗 Learn more at http://BenePower.com
🔑 Key Takeaways from This Episode
📌 Negativity Comes First—By Design
Our brains are wired for survival, not solutions. Recognizing this helps us shift toward creative thinking.
📌 You’re Not Powerless
Reuven explains how we can reclaim control—even when external systems and policies feel overwhelming.
📌 The Story Is the Stress
Often, it’s not the facts that hurt us—it’s the story we tell ourselves about those facts.
📌 Getting Unstuck Starts With Awareness
A simple process of brain dumping and categorization reveals surprising root causes—and new options.
📌 Leaders Must Create Space
Inviting authentic conversation and emotional safety at work can unlock powerful transformation.
⏱️ In This Episode
00:00 Why people get stuck under pressure
02:00 Childhood conditioning and survival wiring
04:30 Different brains, different blockers
07:00 Logical vs. emotional approaches to problem solving
10:30 What we can control (and what we can't)
13:00 The danger of unchecked internal stories
15:30 Reuven’s tools: fact vs. meaning, brain dumps, and mapping
18:00 Spotting hidden challenges
20:30 Leading with empathy and creating psychological safety
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
High costs, shifting regulations, employer
expectations, administrativeoverload, engagement gaps Wow,
it's no wonder some advisors arefrustrated or, worse, stuck.
What techniques can they use tomove forward, and confidently?
We'll find out on this episodeof Shift Shapers.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Change either energizes or paralyzes.
The choice is yours.
This is the Shift Shaperspodcast, bringing the employee
benefits industry interviewswith individuals and companies
who are shaping the industryshifts.
And now here's your host, DavidSaltzman.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
And we've invited Reuven Shalef, ceo of Out of the
Box Consulting and creator ofUntangling Complex Challenges
methodology.
Untangling Complex Challengesthat's where our folks are these
days.
Reuven, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
I'm happy to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
It's our pleasure, so let's level set.
Why is it that people feelstuck or hesitant when they're
faced with uncertainty, ratherthan seeing opportunities, which
is what some people do, but avery few people?
Most people get stuck.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Yeah, the automatic condition of the human mind is
to be on the negative side.
I'm generalizing things here,without going into brain anatomy
and medical aspects.
If you look at where we comefrom, as infants or even prior,
(01:35):
we're not conditioned to anynegativity.
We acquire it along the way andthen fast forward as adults,
the survival mechanisms that wehad to employ, no matter how
great our family was and ourupbringing was, even if it was
the smoothest, we developed weas infants and toddlers, et
(01:56):
cetera, developed survivalmechanisms that remain with us
as we mature and still run theshow, I must say, unfortunately.
Now it's fortunate when you'rein actual danger, like in the
caveman times.
However, it's not serving us indaily life.
(02:16):
The automatic human responseand actually it's not even a
response, it's a reaction is onthe negative side.
It's not even a response, it'sa reaction is on the negative
side.
And when we're faced withchallenges some would call it
the saboteur mind or thenegative mind all that kicks in
first, and then we have toactually invest effort and
(02:40):
practice and have a muscle touse our other parts of the mind
we can call them sage for theZen aspect of it and then
counteract the negativity andthink differently.
There are many ways to do that,but that's the basic reason why
(03:01):
most of us will first benegative and get stuck versus be
creative.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
But you say we're not born that way.
Does that mean that if, forexample, we waited until we were
older to learn to walk, we'dstill be crawling around on all
fours because we wouldn't takethe chance?
Speaker 3 (03:20):
So actually, on the opposite side, as infants, we
don't mind taking chances.
We take chances all the time,to the extent that responsible
adults should stop us fromjumping the cliff or banging our
head on the corner of the table.
So that's a beauty of kids isthere is no fear.
(03:44):
I remember skiing with my sonwhen he was three years old and
we would do jumps and he hadabsolutely no fear and I would
try to instill fear in him butthere was no one to talk to and
that was so magical actually.
So I got to get out of mycomfort zone by just following
my three-year-old son doingjumps on the side of the slopes.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Interesting, interesting.
So what are the most commonsituations you find that trigger
that stuck feeling?
Where do human animals kind ofstart getting stuck?
Is it overload, is it change?
Is it uncertainty, is it somecombination of those things?
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Yeah, it's typically a combination.
This depends a lot on thespecific person and their
ability and skill to handlechallenges, able to figure out,
slice and dice their challenge,and then they might have the
(04:48):
challenge, which is moreemotional and spiritual, to deal
with the challenge, because notevery challenge could be dealt
with pure logic.
On the other hand, people whoare more in their generally
speaking brain, creative brain,emotional, their emotional self
is developed, maybe theirspiritual aspects are developed
(05:10):
and they have practices.
They might not have the logicaldisciplines or tools to handle
situations, but they have othersthat come in to help.
The stuckness comes fromdifferent places or the type of
stuckness can be different forthis group of people or the
(05:33):
other group of people.
And again, generalizing,slicing the world to two kinds
for a moment.
Of course it's not that way.
The stuckness eventually occursby the person, the specific
person, not having either theskills, the tools, the
experience, the awareness tohandle what they need to handle,
(05:58):
which is limiting them.
You and I might face exactlythe same challenge.
In reality, we're presentedwith exactly the same challenge.
However, each one of us willdeal with it very differently
and will get stuck in differentplaces.
It's pretty amazing to see evenpeople from the same background
(06:21):
, same education.
You would say you know twohardware engineers that have
been working together, so from aprofessional perspective
they're exactly the same.
Suddenly they get stuckcompletely in different places.
You would be surprised.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Is their path out of stuckness oftentimes different?
Do people employ differentmechanisms, or are there some
common denominators?
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Absolutely.
Some people would handle it.
Just to make it simple, make aclear distinction Some people
would go at it from theirlogical mind and some people
will go at it from theircreative mind.
They will both advance.
(07:06):
They will hit the wall, even inthe process of untangling or on
solving challenges, dealingwith challenges, even in the
path for finding the root cause,because typically people are
faced with the symptoms and theydeal with the symptoms.
I'm interested in getting to theroot cause.
So some people will get even tothe root cause by meditating
(07:32):
and others by drawing a flowchart.
So the reason for stuckness canbe different and the way to get
unstuck can be different.
The key and part of the I don'tknow if it's secret sauce, but
(07:52):
the sauce that I boiled anddistilled in the Untangling
Complex Challenges methodologyis to involve both aspects and
rather it could be working withsomeone who's very logical and
I'll bring more of the emotionaland spiritual aspects to the
work and it could be someone whois very emotionally intelligent
(08:17):
, with high spiritual connection, and most of the work there
will be putting order,organizing things, taking that
big ball of hair or thread anduntangling it so we can identify
actually the different colorsof the threads inside.
That's in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
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(09:00):
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But let's be real.
That's where the headachesstart.
Real, that's where theheadaches start.
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Find your power with Benapower.
And now back to our conversation.
How big a problem because Iknow this is pervasive in our
community how big a problem isthe feeling of lack of control,
because a lot of the stuff thatfolks in this industry are
(10:31):
dealing with are all things thatare external to them.
A carrier will make a decision.
They don't have any input, theyjust have to go, deploy it with
their clients.
Or a stop-loss carrier willmake a decision about a claim or
all of those kinds of things.
Or the folks in Washingtondecide they're going to make a
change and then you've got notonly the legislative change to
deal with, but they've got theregulations that come from that
(10:54):
and they don't have control overany of that stuff.
But they have to make sense outof it.
Is that a big place wherepeople get stuck?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, we could spend a day answering your question.
There are so many levels therewhen people, most of the time,
when we feel lack of control andtend to go into victim mode, we
(11:20):
fail to see how much control wehave.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
That's interesting, how so.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, while external entities can force certain
things rules, regulations, etc.
No one can force my internalworkings, in my mind, in my body
.
And that's where people mostlydon't recognize this difference
(11:53):
that most of the anxiety, mostof the suffering is
self-inflicted, unconsciously.
So it's not that I say, okay,I'm going to beat myself up.
Sometimes that happens.
But I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about the beatingup and the negative thoughts
that are constantly running inmy mind, regardless of what's
(12:15):
happening outside.
By the way, it could be goodnews released regulation,
someone, a regulator, solvedsomething, and that could create
a conundrum within me.
Or it could be, they added.
So it's very subjective.
What's good news?
What's bad news?
I'll go back to your point ofexternal circumstances that we,
(12:36):
let's say, we perceive asnegative, as problematic, as
restricting us, as controllingus.
Most of our suffering is comingfrom internally.
So it's the question that weneed to ask is not what's
happening out there, it's what'shappening in here and,
(12:57):
specifically, how are weresponding to the external
circumstances?
The single most effective wayto look at things is to
distinguish between whatactually happened, the fact,
regulation, abc, we got approvedand what is the meaning that we
(13:23):
make out of that fact, somewould say what's the stories
that we are inventing?
We have the ability.
We're very capable human beings.
We can invent all kinds ofstories.
Going back to your firstquestion, the automatic psyche
will create negative stories,will choose the negative path,
(13:45):
again, coming from survival mode, and.
But we have other options.
So something happens.
What do we make of it?
Too quickly we will go to theI'm being controlled.
I have no control, I'm a victim.
(14:05):
This is bad.
All these negative thoughts comein first in first.
Most people, or many people,won't even notice that's
happening and will stay in thatcircle of negativity without a
way out.
There has to be someintervention to say hold on a
(14:27):
second.
What actually happened is whatactually happened.
And now all the suffering thatyou're experiencing, all the
challenges, most of them areself-inflicted.
Let's break them down, seewhat's actually running the show
and then we can deal with it.
Now I'm not saying that thereisn't actual, factual, tangible
(14:48):
suffering that might occur.
If now I have to start fillingout timesheets every day and it
takes me two hours a day that Ididn't have to do yesterday,
then there's no argument aboutthat.
I'm talking about all the restthat is not actually happening
and we could.
That's another day that wecould talk about.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
So if I find myself in that kind of a situation, or
if our listeners find themselvesin that kind of a situation, is
there a tool or two that theycan use to move that thought
process from the amygdala, wherethat emotional stuff is coming
up to their prefrontal cortex,where the reasoning takes over?
Are there triggers that theycan use?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The first thing, like I said,that's the reason I brought this
distinction, because it's verybasic and it's very powerful,
extremely powerful, which is,like I said, to distinguish
between what actually happened,facts, and meaning and story.
That, on its own, is to map.
(15:54):
Some people will jot down lists, some people will draw a
picture or a kind of a blockdiagram, a map.
Doesn't matter how yourepresent it, but the essence of
this step is to take everythingout of our mind.
Out of our mind.
We are very capable human beingsand we can think.
(16:15):
I don't remember the numbers,but it's a tremendous number of
thoughts every second.
Once I had the thought tocreate some technology that will
capture all the thoughts thatwe have automatically.
Didn't move it forward, butit's still a desire and with AI,
who knows, maybe we'll getthere sooner than later.
In any case, when we have allthese thoughts in our mind, it's
(16:40):
all convoluted, it's very hardto separate the different
threads of thought and even ifwe're able to do that for a
moment, it disappears becausethere are so many incoming
thoughts.
So what's extremely useful isto do what some people call a
brain dump and write downeverything there is to write
(17:06):
about the topic that we'rechallenged with.
Then, once it's out of ourbrain and it's interesting to
see when I do this with peopleso there is a big outflux.
It takes sometimes five minutes, sometimes five hours, but the
person gets everything out andthen we start working with
what's out there Also enables meor anyone else to deal with
(17:30):
things, because if they're in aperson's mind, I can't yet know
what's going on.
We can work with it, and thework that we do is first of all
using the first tip ofdistinguishing facts from
stories, and then we startcategorizing what's out there to
(17:55):
various categories.
Why do we do that?
So we can start seeing theforest out of the trees,
understand what we're actuallydealing with.
It's pretty amazing to seesomeone might come in with the
challenge being completelyprofessional.
This is an example.
It could be exactly the otherway around.
The challenge could seem to bestrictly professional,
(18:20):
workplace-related, work-related,and we do this initial exercise
, just the initial step, ofputting it out there and
starting to look at patterns andcommon denominators and what's
going on.
And then, when we group theissues into or the elements we
create the map, we see that thebiggest challenge currently is
(18:45):
actually at home and people arebaffled with that because they
see things that they couldn'tsee before because it was all in
their mind and entangled.
And suddenly they see things.
And this is the comment.
It's funny I have chills.
I've been doing this for almost30 years in different
capacities and I'm still.
(19:06):
I get chills when I have thesevisuals of people's realizations
where me included.
In my journey, I went throughthese aha moments and learned
how these things work.
People say, oh my God, I'vebeen dealing with this for years
and this is the first time thatI see things differently.
(19:26):
Oh, this is running the showand I was always trying to solve
here.
So that's a beginning of youasked how it can be dealt with.
That's a very beginning andtypically this is 80% of the
work.
It's the awareness People say.
Being aware is 50%.
(19:46):
50% of the journey is justawareness.
It's like that and it'stypically even more than 50%.
Of course, afterwards there iswork to do and there are skills
to acquire and to practice inorder to actually deal with what
has to be dealt with.
This is not magic powder thatresolves everything, but it's at
(20:07):
least creates awareness andhelps people to see things that
they didn't see before.
So they have new avenues ofaction.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
We've got just a couple of minutes left.
I'm interested.
A portion of our audience aremanaging teams of people.
Is there something that leaderscan or should do to help create
an environment where theirteams can take these kinds of
actions and look at thesechallenges more dispassionately?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, absolutely so.
There are two things that cometo mind.
One is the invitation for theteam members to share their
challenges.
So in many cases people areafraid to share their challenges
(20:55):
because they're afraid of XYZ,and you have to be a manager
that welcomes people to open upand share authentically, have an
open door policy and bedeveloped as a leader.
You have to be developed enoughto be able to receive that
(21:15):
input from others Once you'reable and even before you're able
, completely your willingness,because you could be on a
journey of being able to becomeable the willingness is enough
to hear people where they're atand help them.
That's a big deal, creatingauthenticity in the team and
(21:40):
then cultivate the idea of we'refirst human beings Before we're
workers.
We're human beings, humanbeings Before we're workers.
We're human beings, we haveintelligence, we have emotions,
(22:05):
we have a body and for thepeople that are already one step
further in the conversation andwilling and interested, we have
some spiritual connection.
I'm not talking about religion,I'm not talking about religion,
just something bigger than us.
And with that awareness wecould have, as a team,
conversations, one-on-one or asa team.
We could have conversationsabout our full experience as
(22:26):
human beings in the workplace,how we come to the workplace,
how the work affects us and howwe are dealing with it or not
dealing with it, and then takemeasures to evolve, develop and
enhance our experience byrecognizing what's let's say,
(22:49):
it's simply what we're not happywith, what is the source of it,
and then how we can overcomeand make things better.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
And that is a great place to end our conversation
for today.
Reuven Shalef, CEO of Out ofthe Box Consulting.
Reuven, thank you for afascinating conversation.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
My pleasure, David.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
David, thank you for having me.
I want to give a quick shoutout to our sponsor and our
producer, hatcher Media.
Hey, if you need podcastproduction or professional
graphic design, josh Hatcher isthe expert to contact.
For more information, visit himat hatchermedianet.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
That's H-A-T-C-H-E-r medianet this shift shapers
podcast is copyrighted contentand may not be reproduced in
whole or in part without theexpress written permission of
ship chaper solutions llc.
Copyright 2024.
High costs, shifting regulations, employer
expectations, administrativeoverload, engagement gaps Wow,
it's no wonder some advisors arefrustrated or, worse, stuck.
What techniques can they use tomove forward, and confidently?
We'll find out on this episodeof Shift Shapers.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Change either energizes or paralyzes.
The choice is yours.
This is the Shift Shaperspodcast, bringing the employee
benefits industry interviewswith individuals and companies
who are shaping the industryshifts.
And now here's your host, DavidSaltzman.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
And we've invited Reuven Shalef, ceo of Out of the
Box Consulting and creator ofUntangling Complex Challenges
methodology.
Untangling Complex Challengesthat's where our folks are these
days.
Reuven, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
I'm happy to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
It's our pleasure, so let's level set.
Why is it that people feelstuck or hesitant when they're
faced with uncertainty, ratherthan seeing opportunities, which
is what some people do, but avery few people?
Most people get stuck.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Yeah, the automatic condition of the human mind is
to be on the negative side.
I'm generalizing things here,without going into brain anatomy
and medical aspects.
If you look at where we comefrom, as infants or even prior,
(01:35):
we're not conditioned to anynegativity.
We acquire it along the way andthen fast forward as adults,
the survival mechanisms that wehad to employ, no matter how
great our family was and ourupbringing was, even if it was
the smoothest, we developed weas infants and toddlers, et
(01:56):
cetera, developed survivalmechanisms that remain with us
as we mature and still run theshow, I must say, unfortunately.
Now it's fortunate when you'rein actual danger, like in the
caveman times.
However, it's not serving us indaily life.
(02:16):
The automatic human responseand actually it's not even a
response, it's a reaction is onthe negative side.
It's not even a response, it'sa reaction is on the negative
side.
And when we're faced withchallenges some would call it
the saboteur mind or thenegative mind all that kicks in
first, and then we have toactually invest effort and
(02:40):
practice and have a muscle touse our other parts of the mind
we can call them sage for theZen aspect of it and then
counteract the negativity andthink differently.
There are many ways to do that,but that's the basic reason why
(03:01):
most of us will first benegative and get stuck versus be
creative.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
But you say we're not born that way.
Does that mean that if, forexample, we waited until we were
older to learn to walk, we'dstill be crawling around on all
fours because we wouldn't takethe chance?
Speaker 3 (03:20):
So actually, on the opposite side, as infants, we
don't mind taking chances.
We take chances all the time,to the extent that responsible
adults should stop us fromjumping the cliff or banging our
head on the corner of the table.
So that's a beauty of kids isthere is no fear.
(03:44):
I remember skiing with my sonwhen he was three years old and
we would do jumps and he hadabsolutely no fear and I would
try to instill fear in him butthere was no one to talk to and
that was so magical actually.
So I got to get out of mycomfort zone by just following
my three-year-old son doingjumps on the side of the slopes.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Interesting, interesting.
So what are the most commonsituations you find that trigger
that stuck feeling?
Where do human animals kind ofstart getting stuck?
Is it overload, is it change?
Is it uncertainty, is it somecombination of those things?
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Yeah, it's typically a combination.
This depends a lot on thespecific person and their
ability and skill to handlechallenges, able to figure out,
slice and dice their challenge,and then they might have the
(04:48):
challenge, which is moreemotional and spiritual, to deal
with the challenge, because notevery challenge could be dealt
with pure logic.
On the other hand, people whoare more in their generally
speaking brain, creative brain,emotional, their emotional self
is developed, maybe theirspiritual aspects are developed
(05:10):
and they have practices.
They might not have the logicaldisciplines or tools to handle
situations, but they have othersthat come in to help.
The stuckness comes fromdifferent places or the type of
stuckness can be different forthis group of people or the
(05:33):
other group of people.
And again, generalizing,slicing the world to two kinds
for a moment.
Of course it's not that way.
The stuckness eventually occursby the person, the specific
person, not having either theskills, the tools, the
experience, the awareness tohandle what they need to handle,
(05:58):
which is limiting them.
You and I might face exactlythe same challenge.
In reality, we're presentedwith exactly the same challenge.
However, each one of us willdeal with it very differently
and will get stuck in differentplaces.
It's pretty amazing to see evenpeople from the same background
(06:21):
, same education.
You would say you know twohardware engineers that have
been working together, so from aprofessional perspective
they're exactly the same.
Suddenly they get stuckcompletely in different places.
You would be surprised.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Is their path out of stuckness oftentimes different?
Do people employ differentmechanisms, or are there some
common denominators?
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Absolutely.
Some people would handle it.
Just to make it simple, make aclear distinction Some people
would go at it from theirlogical mind and some people
will go at it from theircreative mind.
They will both advance.
(07:06):
They will hit the wall, even inthe process of untangling or on
solving challenges, dealingwith challenges, even in the
path for finding the root cause,because typically people are
faced with the symptoms and theydeal with the symptoms.
I'm interested in getting to theroot cause.
So some people will get even tothe root cause by meditating
(07:32):
and others by drawing a flowchart.
So the reason for stuckness canbe different and the way to get
unstuck can be different.
The key and part of the I don'tknow if it's secret sauce, but
(07:52):
the sauce that I boiled anddistilled in the Untangling
Complex Challenges methodologyis to involve both aspects and
rather it could be working withsomeone who's very logical and
I'll bring more of the emotionaland spiritual aspects to the
work and it could be someone whois very emotionally intelligent
(08:17):
, with high spiritual connection, and most of the work there
will be putting order,organizing things, taking that
big ball of hair or thread anduntangling it so we can identify
actually the different colorsof the threads inside.
That's in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
And now a word from our sponsor.
You're not just an advisor, youare a game changer.
Forget cookie cutter off theshelf solutions.
That's yesterday's news.
It's 2025.
And it's all about deliveringbold, customed plans that truly
make a difference.
At the core is a razor-sharpself-insured framework, but the
(09:00):
real magic that's in thehigh-impact point solutions.
You strategically layer in toslash costs and supercharge
member outcomes.
But let's be real.
That's where the headachesstart.
Real, that's where theheadaches start.
Hours wasted sifting throughendless options, wrestling with
integration issues and fightingdata sharing roadblocks.
It's a time suck and it'sholding you back, not anymore.
(09:25):
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Find your power with Benapower.
And now back to our conversation.
How big a problem because Iknow this is pervasive in our
community how big a problem isthe feeling of lack of control,
because a lot of the stuff thatfolks in this industry are
(10:31):
dealing with are all things thatare external to them.
A carrier will make a decision.
They don't have any input, theyjust have to go, deploy it with
their clients.
Or a stop-loss carrier willmake a decision about a claim or
all of those kinds of things.
Or the folks in Washingtondecide they're going to make a
change and then you've got notonly the legislative change to
deal with, but they've got theregulations that come from that
(10:54):
and they don't have control overany of that stuff.
But they have to make sense outof it.
Is that a big place wherepeople get stuck?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, we could spend a day answering your question.
There are so many levels therewhen people, most of the time,
when we feel lack of control andtend to go into victim mode, we
(11:20):
fail to see how much control wehave.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
That's interesting, how so.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, while external entities can force certain
things rules, regulations, etc.
No one can force my internalworkings, in my mind, in my body
.
And that's where people mostlydon't recognize this difference
(11:53):
that most of the anxiety, mostof the suffering is
self-inflicted, unconsciously.
So it's not that I say, okay,I'm going to beat myself up.
Sometimes that happens.
But I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about the beatingup and the negative thoughts
that are constantly running inmy mind, regardless of what's
(12:15):
happening outside.
By the way, it could be goodnews released regulation,
someone, a regulator, solvedsomething, and that could create
a conundrum within me.
Or it could be, they added.
So it's very subjective.
What's good news?
What's bad news?
I'll go back to your point ofexternal circumstances that we,
(12:36):
let's say, we perceive asnegative, as problematic, as
restricting us, as controllingus.
Most of our suffering is comingfrom internally.
So it's the question that weneed to ask is not what's
happening out there, it's what'shappening in here and,
(12:57):
specifically, how are weresponding to the external
circumstances?
The single most effective wayto look at things is to
distinguish between whatactually happened, the fact,
regulation, abc, we got approvedand what is the meaning that we
(13:23):
make out of that fact, somewould say what's the stories
that we are inventing?
We have the ability.
We're very capable human beings.
We can invent all kinds ofstories.
Going back to your firstquestion, the automatic psyche
will create negative stories,will choose the negative path,
(13:45):
again, coming from survival mode, and.
But we have other options.
So something happens.
What do we make of it?
Too quickly we will go to theI'm being controlled.
I have no control, I'm a victim.
(14:05):
This is bad.
All these negative thoughts comein first in first.
Most people, or many people,won't even notice that's
happening and will stay in thatcircle of negativity without a
way out.
There has to be someintervention to say hold on a
(14:27):
second.
What actually happened is whatactually happened.
And now all the suffering thatyou're experiencing, all the
challenges, most of them areself-inflicted.
Let's break them down, seewhat's actually running the show
and then we can deal with it.
Now I'm not saying that thereisn't actual, factual, tangible
(14:48):
suffering that might occur.
If now I have to start fillingout timesheets every day and it
takes me two hours a day that Ididn't have to do yesterday,
then there's no argument aboutthat.
I'm talking about all the restthat is not actually happening
and we could.
That's another day that wecould talk about.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
So if I find myself in that kind of a situation, or
if our listeners find themselvesin that kind of a situation, is
there a tool or two that theycan use to move that thought
process from the amygdala, wherethat emotional stuff is coming
up to their prefrontal cortex,where the reasoning takes over?
Are there triggers that theycan use?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The first thing, like I said,that's the reason I brought this
distinction, because it's verybasic and it's very powerful,
extremely powerful, which is,like I said, to distinguish
between what actually happened,facts, and meaning and story.
That, on its own, is to map.
(15:54):
Some people will jot down lists, some people will draw a
picture or a kind of a blockdiagram, a map.
Doesn't matter how yourepresent it, but the essence of
this step is to take everythingout of our mind.
Out of our mind.
We are very capable human beingsand we can think.
(16:15):
I don't remember the numbers,but it's a tremendous number of
thoughts every second.
Once I had the thought tocreate some technology that will
capture all the thoughts thatwe have automatically.
Didn't move it forward, butit's still a desire and with AI,
who knows, maybe we'll getthere sooner than later.
In any case, when we have allthese thoughts in our mind, it's
(16:40):
all convoluted, it's very hardto separate the different
threads of thought and even ifwe're able to do that for a
moment, it disappears becausethere are so many incoming
thoughts.
So what's extremely useful isto do what some people call a
brain dump and write downeverything there is to write
(17:06):
about the topic that we'rechallenged with.
Then, once it's out of ourbrain and it's interesting to
see when I do this with peopleso there is a big outflux.
It takes sometimes five minutes, sometimes five hours, but the
person gets everything out andthen we start working with
what's out there Also enables meor anyone else to deal with
(17:30):
things, because if they're in aperson's mind, I can't yet know
what's going on.
We can work with it, and thework that we do is first of all
using the first tip ofdistinguishing facts from
stories, and then we startcategorizing what's out there to
(17:55):
various categories.
Why do we do that?
So we can start seeing theforest out of the trees,
understand what we're actuallydealing with.
It's pretty amazing to seesomeone might come in with the
challenge being completelyprofessional.
This is an example.
It could be exactly the otherway around.
The challenge could seem to bestrictly professional,
(18:20):
workplace-related, work-related,and we do this initial exercise
, just the initial step, ofputting it out there and
starting to look at patterns andcommon denominators and what's
going on.
And then, when we group theissues into or the elements we
create the map, we see that thebiggest challenge currently is
(18:45):
actually at home and people arebaffled with that because they
see things that they couldn'tsee before because it was all in
their mind and entangled.
And suddenly they see things.
And this is the comment.
It's funny I have chills.
I've been doing this for almost30 years in different
capacities and I'm still.
(19:06):
I get chills when I have thesevisuals of people's realizations
where me included.
In my journey, I went throughthese aha moments and learned
how these things work.
People say, oh my God, I'vebeen dealing with this for years
and this is the first time thatI see things differently.
(19:26):
Oh, this is running the showand I was always trying to solve
here.
So that's a beginning of youasked how it can be dealt with.
That's a very beginning andtypically this is 80% of the
work.
It's the awareness People say.
Being aware is 50%.
(19:46):
50% of the journey is justawareness.
It's like that and it'stypically even more than 50%.
Of course, afterwards there iswork to do and there are skills
to acquire and to practice inorder to actually deal with what
has to be dealt with.
This is not magic powder thatresolves everything, but it's at
(20:07):
least creates awareness andhelps people to see things that
they didn't see before.
So they have new avenues ofaction.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
We've got just a couple of minutes left.
I'm interested.
A portion of our audience aremanaging teams of people.
Is there something that leaderscan or should do to help create
an environment where theirteams can take these kinds of
actions and look at thesechallenges more dispassionately?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, absolutely so.
There are two things that cometo mind.
One is the invitation for theteam members to share their
challenges.
So in many cases people areafraid to share their challenges
(20:55):
because they're afraid of XYZ,and you have to be a manager
that welcomes people to open upand share authentically, have an
open door policy and bedeveloped as a leader.
You have to be developed enoughto be able to receive that
(21:15):
input from others Once you'reable and even before you're able
, completely your willingness,because you could be on a
journey of being able to becomeable the willingness is enough
to hear people where they're atand help them.
That's a big deal, creatingauthenticity in the team and
(21:40):
then cultivate the idea of we'refirst human beings Before we're
workers.
We're human beings, humanbeings Before we're workers.
We're human beings, we haveintelligence, we have emotions,
(22:05):
we have a body and for thepeople that are already one step
further in the conversation andwilling and interested, we have
some spiritual connection.
I'm not talking about religion,I'm not talking about religion,
just something bigger than us.
And with that awareness wecould have, as a team,
conversations, one-on-one or asa team.
We could have conversationsabout our full experience as
(22:26):
human beings in the workplace,how we come to the workplace,
how the work affects us and howwe are dealing with it or not
dealing with it, and then takemeasures to evolve, develop and
enhance our experience byrecognizing what's let's say,
(22:49):
it's simply what we're not happywith, what is the source of it,
and then how we can overcomeand make things better.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
And that is a great place to end our conversation
for today.
Reuven Shalef, CEO of Out ofthe Box Consulting.
Reuven, thank you for afascinating conversation.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
My pleasure, David.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
David, thank you for having me.
I want to give a quick shoutout to our sponsor and our
producer, hatcher Media.
Hey, if you need podcastproduction or professional
graphic design, josh Hatcher isthe expert to contact.
For more information, visit himat hatchermedianet.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
That's H-A-T-C-H-E-r medianet this shift shapers
podcast is copyrighted contentand may not be reproduced in
whole or in part without theexpress written permission of
ship chaper solutions llc.
Copyright 2024.
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