October 7, 2025 • 26 mins
Leadership bottlenecks can silently strangle even the most promising companies. When decisions, initiatives, and progress all funnel through one person—typically the founder or CEO—growth becomes impossible. Charlie Rhea knows this pattern all too well.
As an implementer of the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS), Charlie has witnessed the remarkable transformation that occurs when leadership teams embrace a different way of operating. The framework he teaches provides three critical benefits that most organizations desperately need: crystal-clear vision, disciplined execution (what EOS calls "traction"), and team health built on vulnerability-based trust.
What makes EOS particularly effective is its practical simplicity. Rather than offering vague leadership principles, it delivers concrete tools like the Accountability Chart—an organizational structure that flips conventional thinking by designing around functions first, then placing people second. This approach systematically eliminates bottlenecks by distributing accountability throughout the leadership team.
The most surprising element Charlie emphasizes is the often-overlooked importance of team health. Drawing from Patrick Lencioni's work, EOS focuses on creating vulnerability-based trust—the willingness to have difficult conversations for the greater good of the company. As Charlie notes, "Culture eats strategy for breakfast," and no amount of brilliant planning can overcome a dysfunctional leadership team.
"The Five Dysfunctions of a Team" - Patrick Lencioni
This episode is sponsored by Benepower, the platform of choice for a modern benefits experience. Benepower is an AI-powered benefits platform offering access to top products and services, enabling consultants and employers to create customized plans, optimize usage, and measure effectiveness. www.benepower.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Saltzman (00:02):
What if the biggest thing holding back your
leadership team isn't strategyor talent, but the way you
actually run your business?
We'll find out on this episodeof Shift Shapers.
Announcer (00:16):
This is the Shift Shapers podcast, Connecting
benefits advisors with thoughtleaders and entrepreneurs who
are shaping the shifts in theindustry.
And now here's your host, DavidSaltzman.
David Saltzman (00:30):
And our guest today, who's going to help us
answer that question, is CharlieRay from EOS, or EOS, rather,
worldwide.
He works with leadership teamsto bring clarity of vision, real
traction and healthier dynamicsthat drive growth.
Welcome, charlie.
Charlie Rhea (00:43):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me on the
podcast, David.
Looking forward to it.
David Saltzman (00:47):
It's our pleasure.
So for listeners who may notknow what is the entrepreneurial
operating system and why has itbecome so impactful for
leadership teams.
Charlie Rhea (00:56):
Yeah, so it's an acronym.
The EOS is the EntrepreneurialOperating System, so just break
it down backwards.
It's a system for how youoperate as an entrepreneurial
type leader.
So in its core, it's a businessoperating system.
It's a way to manage humanenergy, to get everybody focused
(01:16):
on rowing in the same direction.
One of the beautiful things Ilove about EOS is the simplicity
.
So, david, we like to talkabout EOS with describing you
with three extremely clearbenefits.
See if this resonates with youIf you're listening.
Vision where's the company going?
Right, how are we going to getthere?
Where are we going?
How are we going to get there?
That's what EOS provides.
(01:37):
It's a system for getting youand your leadership team 100% on
the same page on vision.
Traction is the second benefit,and that's about focus,
discipline and execution.
So a lot of change is happeningaround the world and we must be
quick to adapt and adjust, beflexible, and so how do you do
(01:58):
that?
You be extremely focused on theright priority.
So vision without traction ishallucination.
So what we say here at EOS isas goes the leadership team, so
goes the rest of the company.
So you got a clear vision andyou're executing on that vision
every single day with focus anddiscipline and real
accountability.
And the third piece is healthy.
(02:19):
David, healthy means open andhonest.
We had a great conversation theother day and it's just about
being honest, being real,getting to the root issue, not
talking about the surface.
Let's get to the root issue andit's built on
vulnerability-based trust.
We can talk on that later ifyou want, but it's just saying
hey, at the end of the day, forthe greater good of our company,
(02:40):
let's make a decision.
Let's make a decision.
So we like to say vision,traction, healthy.
Those are the three benefitsthat a company running on EOS
actually walks through and isable to get those three benefits
.
So, yeah, that's a quick twominute summary for you.
David Saltzman (02:55):
No, that gives us a great foundation.
So let's start by talking aboutwho you typically work with.
Now, from our conversation, youprimarily work with small
leadership teams, right?
Why is that the ideal size foryour practice to be most
effective?
Charlie Rhea (03:09):
Yeah, Well, to step back even further, you know
, Gino Wickman is the founderand creator of EOS Worldwide and
he came up with this acronymand basically it's a way to
harmonize and organize all themoving pieces in your business.
And when he started to actuallydo this and run this with
companies, it happened to bethat these companies were growth
(03:31):
minded, they were ready forchange, they were wanting to
change.
So it doesn't work well withprideful people that are stuck
in their ways.
But if you're growth minded andyou have a leadership team, we
say about 10 to 250.
So that's our sweet spot.
Can it work with a one personsize company, a solopreneur?
100%?
What about a thousand personsize company?
(03:52):
Yes, because it's built on time, tested principles.
But our sweet spot isentrepreneurial type companies
that are privately held andthey're in that 10 to 250 in
terms of full-time employees.
So that's the sweet spot.
And one of the reasons it worksso well is because most, like
most people, we get off track.
(04:12):
Right, it doesn't matter ifyou're a father, if you're a
mother, if you're just a parent.
If you're in a stage of life asa leader, you get off track.
And so what EOS provides is aframework to have one common
vision, one common language, onecommon voice to be able to say,
hey, let's get back on track.
It's a common system on sayinghow do we get back on track?
(04:36):
And then David, stay on track.
So that's that's why it worksreally well with small teams,
you know, mid to small size, 10to 250.
But the reason it's so powerfulis that it's getting people on
the same page and then keepingthem on the same page.
So I love to dive more intothat if your audience wants to
hear that.
David Saltzman (04:53):
Yeah, we will.
We're going to do a deep diveinto all of this stuff, but once
you've got, I'm just trying toset the table so people kind of
get an idea of what thisframework looks like.
So once you've got the rightteam in the room, let's dig into
what you actually teach and youtouched on it a little bit
Vision, traction and health.
Let's talk about those firsttwo and then we can talk about
health, because I'm not surethat most people incorporate
(05:14):
that when they think about this,and again, from our off-air
conversation, it's criticallyimportant.
Charlie Rhea (05:19):
Yeah.
So again, the vision is justvery simply where are you going?
What's the direction that thecompany is going?
And a lot of leaders have thevision here, david, they have it
in their head.
But what we do at EOS and I'm afacilitator so I'm going to
pull it out.
(05:39):
I'm a teacher, I'm a coachwe're going to pull it out by
asking powerful questions when Iwork with my clients, but we're
asking them questions to pullthe vision.
It's already in your head theCEO or the founder right, it's
in your head.
Let's get it out on paper,let's simplify it, let's clarify
it and then let's communicateit and reinforce that
(06:02):
communication over and overagain.
Sometimes people have to hearthings seven times for them to
hear it the first time, and soit's a matter of saying we're
going to reinforceorganizational clarity.
One of the things that EOS wasbuilt on was Patrick Linceoni's
book the Four Obsessions of anExtraordinary Executive, and in
that book he goes into the fourdisciplines of what it means to
(06:24):
be an extraordinary executive,and one of them is providing
organizational clarity and thenreinforcing it.
So the cool thing about visionis that EOS actually does an
extremely powerful job onclarifying and simplifying the
vision and then communicating.
We have a discipline that'scalled shared by all, and this
(06:44):
is what it looks like Every 90days, the CEO or the founder,
the business owner, is going toget up in front of the company
and share the vision.
They're going to give a stateof the company address.
And here's what it looks like,david, very simple.
Where have we been, where arewe at, where are we going?
And so you look, you recap thepast quarter, the past 90 days.
(07:06):
Hey, hey, team, it's for thewhole company, hey, team, here's
where we've been, here weresome of the results, here's
where we're at currently, todayand you're sharing the vision.
And then here's where we'regoing in the next 90 days in
your casting vision, yourforecasting, your, your
promoting them.
It's almost like think WilliamWallace, braveheart, like
freedom, right, when do you wantto rally the troops for battle?
(07:29):
Before the battle, in themiddle of the battle or at the
end of the battle?
It's before the battle getsstarted.
So it's like at the beginningof the quarter, like let's rally
the troops, let's bring them inand get them 100% rowing in the
same direction, all focused onthe right priorities for the
next 90 days.
We call it the 90 day world.
(07:49):
So, david, that's one huge areaand that's what we call vision.
The traction piece is about thefocus and the discipline.
It's saying okay, now that wehave a clear vision, how do we
maintain traction?
Think about just that wordmomentum, traction.
You're thinking about a tire.
You're digging into the, intothe road, and you're you're
(08:10):
going through the dirt and it'shard, it's frustrating, but you
start to get momentum like aflywheel.
It takes a lot of work at thebeginning and that's where it's
built on two things focus anddiscipline.
If you're focused on the next90 days and you're disciplined
to stay focused every singleweek, what's the result?
Extreme execution.
(08:32):
That's what EOS does.
It provides a system forextreme execution day in and day
out, and that's the beautifulthing.
And I can talk on health herein a second, but those are the
first two key components.
Those are two of the majorresults that EOS creates, and I
get very fired up and passionateabout it because you've seen it
and I'm sure you listening tothis.
(08:54):
What do most people strugglewith, david?
The vision's great.
They struggle with discipline.
Follow through.
They struggle with shinyobjects squirrel.
They get distracted.
This right here, the phone.
It's distracting people.
It's giving them excuses to notcommunicate well, to not follow
up and follow through, to notstay focused, stay disciplined
(09:16):
to execute on the rightpriorities.
So that's where the vision andthe traction are really really
good.
They're synergisticallycomplementary.
David Saltzman (09:24):
So let's talk about health, because for our
audience, when we talk abouthealth, we're thinking employee
benefits.
That's not exactly what youmean when you talk about health.
Yeah, so bring that thirdelement in for us.
Charlie Rhea (09:34):
Yeah, let's unpack health.
So again, patrick Lencioni andhis work with the five
dysfunctions of a team.
We love Patrick Lencioni at EOSWorldwide.
His books are phenomenal, buthe goes into this really
important concept ofvulnerability-based trust.
And if you're familiar with thefive pyramids of the five
(09:55):
layers of the five dysfunctionsof a team, the five pyramids of
the five layers of the fivedysfunctions of a team, at the
bottom it's trust.
And so trust is the bottom ofthe pyramid, meaning everything
starts with trust.
And let's go to, like, even ahigh level picture how do you
generate new business?
How do you build a relationship?
It's you do business with thoseyou know like and trust the
know like and trust factor.
(10:15):
So we teach vulnerability-basedtrust, not predictive trust, and
there is a distinction here.
So, david, predictive trustwould be like, hey, did you do
what you said you were going todo?
I trust you, you're going toget it done, and that's
important and we definitely wantthat.
But what we teach is avulnerability-based trust,
meaning, hey, david, for thegreater good of our company,
(10:38):
you're not following through onwhat you said you were going to
do.
So let's talk about that.
What's going on?
We're going to call enter thedanger.
It's a hard conversation, right, it's a fierce conversation,
it's a courageous conversationand, again, it's rated, it's
molded together in this contextof for the greater good.
(10:59):
We're going to make a decisionabout why are you not following
through and how can I help youright, or we have a discipline
that we teach.
Let's put the right people inthe right seat.
So healthy.
When we say healthy, we meanopen and honest.
Open in the terms of everysingle person, 10 people, 250.
(11:20):
It doesn't matter.
Every single employee is theright person and they're in the
right seat.
They totally embody andexemplify, they understand the
core values of your company andthey're in the right seat,
meaning they are dominating thegame in terms of their focus and
their discipline.
They have a unique ability, aDan Sullivan strategic coach
(11:42):
word.
Their unique ability is to dothis role.
They have five specific rolesthat are so crystal clear and
when you're leading right, ifyou confuse, you lose.
So you're providing clarityagain, reinforcing
organizational clarity.
If you're constantly trying toput the right people in the
right seats and you're having aconversation, then that's
(12:06):
creating team health and again,you're basing it off of
vulnerability based trust.
You're saying, for the greatergood, we need to have a
conversation.
Something's not working withthe five roles that we have for
you and your seat.
Let's have a conversation.
Something's not working withthe five roles that we have for
you in your seat.
Let's have a conversation.
How can I help you besuccessful?
And it's not attacking theperson, you're attacking the
problem together, open andhonest.
(12:29):
So open is hearing, reallyhumbling yourself to hear the
other person.
That's hard to do.
People want to be understood.
But honest is the second pieceand that's where you must, for
the greater good.
You must have that hardconversation.
If the expectations have beenlaid out and they're crystal
clear this is what's expectedand they're not following
(12:51):
through on what's expected, youhave to step up and inspect what
you expect as a manager, thewhole rule of what you permit
you promote.
So if you're going to seesomebody consistently
underperforming, you're notgoing to step up and say
something.
You're promoting a lackadaisicalculture where people are just
not working with excellence, andthat's not healthy.
(13:13):
And here's the best part aboutit.
Okay, everybody likes visionand traction, it just totally
resonates.
But you see, at the end of theday, culture eats strategy for
breakfast, and so if you cantruly dominate the game with
building what we call teamhealth.
You're actually gonna have evenhigher execution on your vision
and your traction.
(13:33):
You will get so much better interms of working smarter because
you're working healthier as aleadership team.
And as goes the leadership teamI mentioned this so goes the
rest of the company.
So if there's dysfunction atthe leadership team level, it
will be exponentially worse,grown in a bad way in terms of
(13:54):
the lower levels and vice versa.
If the team is very tight uptop and they are locked in with
their communication, they'reopen, they're honest, they're
willing to be vulnerable, thatis actually going to have a
domino effect on the lowerlevels of the leadership in the
company.
So it really does start withyou, the leader.
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And now back to ourconversation.
So, charlie, how do you?
Let's move into the practical.
How do you help leadershipteams translate a big vision
into practical execution withoutlosing momentum?
Charlie Rhea (15:30):
Yeah, that's a great question.
The reality is that, again, thevision is already in the head
of most of the leaders, and soit's how do we get into a room
and bring that vision out andclarify it and simplify it?
And how do you do that?
You would think, logically, youjust start by asking the
questions of what are the eightareas of the business that we
(15:51):
need to be clear on, and we doteach that.
But you know, actually, david,the first place to start is in
traction.
It's in focus and discipline.
It's to say, let's build theentire business around true
accountability.
Again, going back to what wetalked about earlier,
organizational clarity.
So if your company does nothave an accountability chart,
(16:17):
they're missing an incrediblypowerful tool.
Now let me just explain whatthat is, because that's actually
the first place that you'regoing to start is saying who is
accountable for what?
So it's an org chart, anorganizational chart on steroids
.
And here's the big differencewhen you think about building a
company, you're focusing on whodo we have in the company.
(16:38):
You're looking around okay,where do I put Bob and Joe and
Susie and Sally?
And you're building the companytraditionally around the people
.
With an accountability chart,you're actually going to go
structure first, people second.
And here's how it works, david,you're going to look at a year
from now, where does thiscompany need to go?
(16:59):
And you build the rightstructure.
Looking at functions, what arethe major functions of this
organization?
And, for example, you have amarketing and sales function, an
operations function and afinance function.
Those are the three basicfunctions.
You also have these other twovery important functions, which
is an integrator and a visionary.
(17:19):
And let me just give you adistinction.
The integrator is holding theother three functions
accountable.
They are truly driving resultsand execution.
They're usually extremelydisciplined, very focused Think
COO.
They're really, really good atfollowing up and following
through.
The visionary is casting vision.
They're all about big ideas,problem solving these, managing
(17:43):
big relationships.
They're not very good atholding people accountable.
They're not good at havingthose tough conversations.
That work is much better doneby the integrator function.
So notice, we're not talkingabout people, david, we're
talking about building the rightstructure structure first,
people second.
So that's kind of phase onethat we teach.
And then we go to phase two andwe say, hey, okay, let's look
(18:03):
at the finance function.
Let's keep it simple.
What are the five roles of thefinance function and typically
HR I mean your audience may kindof fit in some of this.
Sometimes we call it HRfunction or admin function.
The key here is you're actuallydescribing the function, not
titles.
It's not VP of HR or VP ofsales.
We're trying to stay away fromegos, so we keep it based on
(18:28):
describe what the function isand keep it simple.
What are the five roles of eachfunction?
So, structure first, peoplesecond.
Have we talked about people?
No, you're building thestructure on accountability
chart.
Now you go to phase three andyou put people in the seat.
So go back to the idea ofputting the right people in the
(18:48):
right seat.
You now look at your currentteam.
You bring it back to realityand you say, okay, based on
today, where do we need to putpeople?
And so you start to put them ineach seat and you test them.
Okay, could Bill be a good seatfor operations?
Does he get it, does he want itand does he have the capacity
(19:09):
to do a great job?
So it's just keeping it superclear who is accountable for
what and who reports to who.
So in terms of the opportunitythat you have as an organization
to actually say where do westart?
It's with accountability.
You don't start with vision,you start with accountability
chart and creating a foundationon focus and discipline.
(19:30):
Because as you get clear on whodoes what, then you actually
create 90 day priorities.
We call those rocks and thenyou start to work on discipline
with weekly level 10 meetings.
So there is a method to themadness and when you start with
a foundation of focus anddiscipline, your execution is
(19:51):
going to go so much higher.
And then when you bring in thevision as a secondary session,
the vision is so much moreeasily accomplished in terms of
now you've already establishedwho does what and so it's much
easier conversation.
Sometimes people get stuck inall these core about the stuff
that's important.
It's it's the shiny objects,it's the stuff that's fun.
(20:12):
It's fun to talk about.
But we actually need to holdoff on talking about the vision
and first build a foundation onfocus and discipline and true
accountability.
So it's a littlecounterintuitive.
I would encourage the readersif you're a reader, check out
the book Traction, because inthat book it actually explains
the process and I wish they putthis chapter in the beginning.
(20:32):
But if you look at the back ofthe book, it tells you the exact
process, on how to follow it,and it kind of lays it out just
like I just did right now.
David Saltzman (20:40):
And we'll link to all of these books that we're
talking about all of theLencioni stuff, because here on
Shift Shapers we're big fans ofPatrick Lencioni.
We'll link to all of thesethings in the show notes.
So question for you what's thebiggest shift you've seen in a
leadership team once they startfully embracing the EOS process?
Charlie Rhea (21:02):
Yeah, I'll tell you the most common one that I
see, and it's the bottleneck.
I've done hundreds of meetingswith leadership teams and one of
the questions I love doing wedo a free 90-minute strategy
session.
We call it the 90-minutemeeting.
One of the questions that I askin this meeting is hey,
leadership team, what's workingand what's not working right?
I look at challenges andconstantly, consistently, I get
(21:24):
this answer the bottleneckSo-and-so is the bottleneck.
Usually it's the founder, it'sthe CEO or it's very top heavy.
There's one heavy hitter salesleader, or one or two sales
leader.
They're getting 80%, 70% oftheir revenue from like one or
two people or one or two bigaccounts, and so it's.
How do you eliminatebottlenecks?
And the cool thing about thisis that EOS it's really a
(21:49):
leadership development program,it's an operating system, but
what it is at its core is it'shere to develop a leadership
team and that's why the PatrickLencioni, all the books that he
has we just took those conceptsand practically implemented them
into a framework of a journey.
We call it the journey.
So you even have heard me referto the leadership team a few
(22:13):
different times.
I'm constantly, from day one inthat first session, I'm
constantly referring to them ashey leadership team.
How do y'all want to moveforward on this decision?
Bob, over here, the CEO is thebottleneck.
If he is not in the room, howdoes the team operate?
John Maxwell talks about thesign of good, strong, effective
(22:33):
leadership is how does the teamoperate when the leader is not
in the room?
So the long winded answer tothis is EOS eliminates
bottlenecks, because what doesit positively create?
A foundational leadership teamthat's highly cohesive, highly
functional and they're extremelyhealthy again, open, honest and
(22:54):
willing to be vulnerable.
They're willing to say yeah,guys, to be honest, I'm the
issue, I'm the bottleneck, youknow.
So let's figure out how tosolve this together.
David Saltzman (23:06):
If a listener wanted to start making their
team healthier.
We've got just a couple ofminutes left.
I thought this would be a greatquestion to wrap up with.
If they wanted to do that, liketomorrow, what's one small
action that they could takeright away?
Charlie Rhea (23:17):
one small action that they could take right away.
Yeah, you know, one of the bestthings to do to improve health
is to increase trust, and one ofthe fastest ways to build trust
is, again, to do what you saidyou're going to do.
So if there's only one keytakeaway that you can get from
today, it's how can we practicetrust, vulnerability-based trust
(23:43):
, on a regular basis everysingle week and I'd love to
again.
We can put a note in the shownotes here, but the weekly level
10 meeting is an opportunity tohave a meeting that starts on
time, david, it ends on time,same day, same time, and it's
the same agenda.
It is an incredibly simpleframework on how to have an
effective and efficient we alllove being efficient, but let's
(24:04):
be effective too An efficientand effective meeting every
single week, and that is whereyou get to practice team health.
You get to practicevulnerability-based trust, being
open and honest, having realconversations, solving real
issues at the root level, onetime for the greater good.
And so, again, if there's onlyone thing a listener can do, is
(24:28):
think about starting buildingtrust by having a really good
weekly meeting, and as you dothat, you're actually going to
start to build momentum to thenbe able to have it impact the
rest of the company.
So it does start with you andit starts with building trust.
David Saltzman (24:42):
If listeners want to reach out to you, what's
the best way to get ahold ofyou, Charlie?
Charlie Rhea (24:46):
Yeah, for sure you can reach me on my email,
charlieray, that's R-H-E-A.
Charlieray at EOSworldwidecom.
I'm also fairly active onYouTube.
I'm constantly producing oneminute two minute shorts on
quick topics related toleadership, things that I'm
really passionate about, andthen also all things EOS, and I
(25:07):
also have some long form contentwhere I do a deep dive into
each of these topics.
For example, the level 10meeting.
I actually sat there and said,okay, if I had to teach somebody
how to do this right and make aYouTube video, how would I do
it?
And I'm just talking directlyto you to teach it.
So, yeah, follow me on YouTube.
I have a lot of free resourcesthere and would love to connect
with anybody If any of thisresonates with you, especially
(25:29):
the team health.
Team health, again, is somethingthat is.
It's overlooked, but it is aultimate, the ultimate
competitive advantage.
In fact, another book referencethe advantage by Patrick.
In fact, another book referencethe Advantage by Patrick
Lencioni.
He talks about why team healthis the ultimate competitive
advantage, and so, yeah, I wouldlove to talk to anybody if
you're interested.
David Saltzman (25:47):
Charlie Ray.
Eos Implementer.
Charlie, thanks for a great andfascinating conversation.
Charlie Rhea (25:51):
Yes, for sure, david.
Thanks for having me, and mayGod bless you, and I look
forward to interacting again.
Announcer (26:00):
The Shift Shapers Podcast is a production of Shift
Shapers LLC, and I look forwardto interacting again.
What if the biggest thing holding back your
leadership team isn't strategyor talent, but the way you
actually run your business?
We'll find out on this episodeof Shift Shapers.
Announcer (00:16):
This is the Shift Shapers podcast, Connecting
benefits advisors with thoughtleaders and entrepreneurs who
are shaping the shifts in theindustry.
And now here's your host, DavidSaltzman.
David Saltzman (00:30):
And our guest today, who's going to help us
answer that question, is CharlieRay from EOS, or EOS, rather,
worldwide.
He works with leadership teamsto bring clarity of vision, real
traction and healthier dynamicsthat drive growth.
Welcome, charlie.
Charlie Rhea (00:43):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me on the
podcast, David.
Looking forward to it.
David Saltzman (00:47):
It's our pleasure.
So for listeners who may notknow what is the entrepreneurial
operating system and why has itbecome so impactful for
leadership teams.
Charlie Rhea (00:56):
Yeah, so it's an acronym.
The EOS is the EntrepreneurialOperating System, so just break
it down backwards.
It's a system for how youoperate as an entrepreneurial
type leader.
So in its core, it's a businessoperating system.
It's a way to manage humanenergy, to get everybody focused
(01:16):
on rowing in the same direction.
One of the beautiful things Ilove about EOS is the simplicity
.
So, david, we like to talkabout EOS with describing you
with three extremely clearbenefits.
See if this resonates with youIf you're listening.
Vision where's the company going?
Right, how are we going to getthere?
Where are we going?
How are we going to get there?
That's what EOS provides.
(01:37):
It's a system for getting youand your leadership team 100% on
the same page on vision.
Traction is the second benefit,and that's about focus,
discipline and execution.
So a lot of change is happeningaround the world and we must be
quick to adapt and adjust, beflexible, and so how do you do
(01:58):
that?
You be extremely focused on theright priority.
So vision without traction ishallucination.
So what we say here at EOS isas goes the leadership team, so
goes the rest of the company.
So you got a clear vision andyou're executing on that vision
every single day with focus anddiscipline and real
accountability.
And the third piece is healthy.
(02:19):
David, healthy means open andhonest.
We had a great conversation theother day and it's just about
being honest, being real,getting to the root issue, not
talking about the surface.
Let's get to the root issue andit's built on
vulnerability-based trust.
We can talk on that later ifyou want, but it's just saying
hey, at the end of the day, forthe greater good of our company,
(02:40):
let's make a decision.
Let's make a decision.
So we like to say vision,traction, healthy.
Those are the three benefitsthat a company running on EOS
actually walks through and isable to get those three benefits
.
So, yeah, that's a quick twominute summary for you.
David Saltzman (02:55):
No, that gives us a great foundation.
So let's start by talking aboutwho you typically work with.
Now, from our conversation, youprimarily work with small
leadership teams, right?
Why is that the ideal size foryour practice to be most
effective?
Charlie Rhea (03:09):
Yeah, Well, to step back even further, you know
, Gino Wickman is the founderand creator of EOS Worldwide and
he came up with this acronymand basically it's a way to
harmonize and organize all themoving pieces in your business.
And when he started to actuallydo this and run this with
companies, it happened to bethat these companies were growth
(03:31):
minded, they were ready forchange, they were wanting to
change.
So it doesn't work well withprideful people that are stuck
in their ways.
But if you're growth minded andyou have a leadership team, we
say about 10 to 250.
So that's our sweet spot.
Can it work with a one personsize company, a solopreneur?
100%?
What about a thousand personsize company?
(03:52):
Yes, because it's built on time, tested principles.
But our sweet spot isentrepreneurial type companies
that are privately held andthey're in that 10 to 250 in
terms of full-time employees.
So that's the sweet spot.
And one of the reasons it worksso well is because most, like
most people, we get off track.
(04:12):
Right, it doesn't matter ifyou're a father, if you're a
mother, if you're just a parent.
If you're in a stage of life asa leader, you get off track.
And so what EOS provides is aframework to have one common
vision, one common language, onecommon voice to be able to say,
hey, let's get back on track.
It's a common system on sayinghow do we get back on track?
(04:36):
And then David, stay on track.
So that's that's why it worksreally well with small teams,
you know, mid to small size, 10to 250.
But the reason it's so powerfulis that it's getting people on
the same page and then keepingthem on the same page.
So I love to dive more intothat if your audience wants to
hear that.
David Saltzman (04:53):
Yeah, we will.
We're going to do a deep diveinto all of this stuff, but once
you've got, I'm just trying toset the table so people kind of
get an idea of what thisframework looks like.
So once you've got the rightteam in the room, let's dig into
what you actually teach and youtouched on it a little bit
Vision, traction and health.
Let's talk about those firsttwo and then we can talk about
health, because I'm not surethat most people incorporate
(05:14):
that when they think about this,and again, from our off-air
conversation, it's criticallyimportant.
Charlie Rhea (05:19):
Yeah.
So again, the vision is justvery simply where are you going?
What's the direction that thecompany is going?
And a lot of leaders have thevision here, david, they have it
in their head.
But what we do at EOS and I'm afacilitator so I'm going to
pull it out.
(05:39):
I'm a teacher, I'm a coachwe're going to pull it out by
asking powerful questions when Iwork with my clients, but we're
asking them questions to pullthe vision.
It's already in your head theCEO or the founder right, it's
in your head.
Let's get it out on paper,let's simplify it, let's clarify
it and then let's communicateit and reinforce that
(06:02):
communication over and overagain.
Sometimes people have to hearthings seven times for them to
hear it the first time, and soit's a matter of saying we're
going to reinforceorganizational clarity.
One of the things that EOS wasbuilt on was Patrick Linceoni's
book the Four Obsessions of anExtraordinary Executive, and in
that book he goes into the fourdisciplines of what it means to
(06:24):
be an extraordinary executive,and one of them is providing
organizational clarity and thenreinforcing it.
So the cool thing about visionis that EOS actually does an
extremely powerful job onclarifying and simplifying the
vision and then communicating.
We have a discipline that'scalled shared by all, and this
(06:44):
is what it looks like Every 90days, the CEO or the founder,
the business owner, is going toget up in front of the company
and share the vision.
They're going to give a stateof the company address.
And here's what it looks like,david, very simple.
Where have we been, where arewe at, where are we going?
And so you look, you recap thepast quarter, the past 90 days.
(07:06):
Hey, hey, team, it's for thewhole company, hey, team, here's
where we've been, here weresome of the results, here's
where we're at currently, todayand you're sharing the vision.
And then here's where we'regoing in the next 90 days in
your casting vision, yourforecasting, your, your
promoting them.
It's almost like think WilliamWallace, braveheart, like
freedom, right, when do you wantto rally the troops for battle?
(07:29):
Before the battle, in themiddle of the battle or at the
end of the battle?
It's before the battle getsstarted.
So it's like at the beginningof the quarter, like let's rally
the troops, let's bring them inand get them 100% rowing in the
same direction, all focused onthe right priorities for the
next 90 days.
We call it the 90 day world.
(07:49):
So, david, that's one huge areaand that's what we call vision.
The traction piece is about thefocus and the discipline.
It's saying okay, now that wehave a clear vision, how do we
maintain traction?
Think about just that wordmomentum, traction.
You're thinking about a tire.
You're digging into the, intothe road, and you're you're
(08:10):
going through the dirt and it'shard, it's frustrating, but you
start to get momentum like aflywheel.
It takes a lot of work at thebeginning and that's where it's
built on two things focus anddiscipline.
If you're focused on the next90 days and you're disciplined
to stay focused every singleweek, what's the result?
Extreme execution.
(08:32):
That's what EOS does.
It provides a system forextreme execution day in and day
out, and that's the beautifulthing.
And I can talk on health herein a second, but those are the
first two key components.
Those are two of the majorresults that EOS creates, and I
get very fired up and passionateabout it because you've seen it
and I'm sure you listening tothis.
(08:54):
What do most people strugglewith, david?
The vision's great.
They struggle with discipline.
Follow through.
They struggle with shinyobjects squirrel.
They get distracted.
This right here, the phone.
It's distracting people.
It's giving them excuses to notcommunicate well, to not follow
up and follow through, to notstay focused, stay disciplined
(09:16):
to execute on the rightpriorities.
So that's where the vision andthe traction are really really
good.
They're synergisticallycomplementary.
David Saltzman (09:24):
So let's talk about health, because for our
audience, when we talk abouthealth, we're thinking employee
benefits.
That's not exactly what youmean when you talk about health.
Yeah, so bring that thirdelement in for us.
Charlie Rhea (09:34):
Yeah, let's unpack health.
So again, patrick Lencioni andhis work with the five
dysfunctions of a team.
We love Patrick Lencioni at EOSWorldwide.
His books are phenomenal, buthe goes into this really
important concept ofvulnerability-based trust.
And if you're familiar with thefive pyramids of the five
(09:55):
layers of the five dysfunctionsof a team, the five pyramids of
the five layers of the fivedysfunctions of a team, at the
bottom it's trust.
And so trust is the bottom ofthe pyramid, meaning everything
starts with trust.
And let's go to, like, even ahigh level picture how do you
generate new business?
How do you build a relationship?
It's you do business with thoseyou know like and trust the
know like and trust factor.
(10:15):
So we teach vulnerability-basedtrust, not predictive trust, and
there is a distinction here.
So, david, predictive trustwould be like, hey, did you do
what you said you were going todo?
I trust you, you're going toget it done, and that's
important and we definitely wantthat.
But what we teach is avulnerability-based trust,
meaning, hey, david, for thegreater good of our company,
(10:38):
you're not following through onwhat you said you were going to
do.
So let's talk about that.
What's going on?
We're going to call enter thedanger.
It's a hard conversation, right, it's a fierce conversation,
it's a courageous conversationand, again, it's rated, it's
molded together in this contextof for the greater good.
(10:59):
We're going to make a decisionabout why are you not following
through and how can I help youright, or we have a discipline
that we teach.
Let's put the right people inthe right seat.
So healthy.
When we say healthy, we meanopen and honest.
Open in the terms of everysingle person, 10 people, 250.
(11:20):
It doesn't matter.
Every single employee is theright person and they're in the
right seat.
They totally embody andexemplify, they understand the
core values of your company andthey're in the right seat,
meaning they are dominating thegame in terms of their focus and
their discipline.
They have a unique ability, aDan Sullivan strategic coach
(11:42):
word.
Their unique ability is to dothis role.
They have five specific rolesthat are so crystal clear and
when you're leading right, ifyou confuse, you lose.
So you're providing clarityagain, reinforcing
organizational clarity.
If you're constantly trying toput the right people in the
right seats and you're having aconversation, then that's
(12:06):
creating team health and again,you're basing it off of
vulnerability based trust.
You're saying, for the greatergood, we need to have a
conversation.
Something's not working withthe five roles that we have for
you and your seat.
Let's have a conversation.
Something's not working withthe five roles that we have for
you in your seat.
Let's have a conversation.
How can I help you besuccessful?
And it's not attacking theperson, you're attacking the
problem together, open andhonest.
(12:29):
So open is hearing, reallyhumbling yourself to hear the
other person.
That's hard to do.
People want to be understood.
But honest is the second pieceand that's where you must, for
the greater good.
You must have that hardconversation.
If the expectations have beenlaid out and they're crystal
clear this is what's expectedand they're not following
(12:51):
through on what's expected, youhave to step up and inspect what
you expect as a manager, thewhole rule of what you permit
you promote.
So if you're going to seesomebody consistently
underperforming, you're notgoing to step up and say
something.
You're promoting a lackadaisicalculture where people are just
not working with excellence, andthat's not healthy.
(13:13):
And here's the best part aboutit.
Okay, everybody likes visionand traction, it just totally
resonates.
But you see, at the end of theday, culture eats strategy for
breakfast, and so if you cantruly dominate the game with
building what we call teamhealth.
You're actually gonna have evenhigher execution on your vision
and your traction.
(13:33):
You will get so much better interms of working smarter because
you're working healthier as aleadership team.
And as goes the leadership teamI mentioned this so goes the
rest of the company.
So if there's dysfunction atthe leadership team level, it
will be exponentially worse,grown in a bad way in terms of
(13:54):
the lower levels and vice versa.
If the team is very tight uptop and they are locked in with
their communication, they'reopen, they're honest, they're
willing to be vulnerable, thatis actually going to have a
domino effect on the lowerlevels of the leadership in the
company.
So it really does start withyou, the leader.
David Saltzman (14:11):
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And now back to ourconversation.
So, charlie, how do you?
Let's move into the practical.
How do you help leadershipteams translate a big vision
into practical execution withoutlosing momentum?
Charlie Rhea (15:30):
Yeah, that's a great question.
The reality is that, again, thevision is already in the head
of most of the leaders, and soit's how do we get into a room
and bring that vision out andclarify it and simplify it?
And how do you do that?
You would think, logically, youjust start by asking the
questions of what are the eightareas of the business that we
(15:51):
need to be clear on, and we doteach that.
But you know, actually, david,the first place to start is in
traction.
It's in focus and discipline.
It's to say, let's build theentire business around true
accountability.
Again, going back to what wetalked about earlier,
organizational clarity.
So if your company does nothave an accountability chart,
(16:17):
they're missing an incrediblypowerful tool.
Now let me just explain whatthat is, because that's actually
the first place that you'regoing to start is saying who is
accountable for what?
So it's an org chart, anorganizational chart on steroids
.
And here's the big differencewhen you think about building a
company, you're focusing on whodo we have in the company.
(16:38):
You're looking around okay,where do I put Bob and Joe and
Susie and Sally?
And you're building the companytraditionally around the people
.
With an accountability chart,you're actually going to go
structure first, people second.
And here's how it works, david,you're going to look at a year
from now, where does thiscompany need to go?
(16:59):
And you build the rightstructure.
Looking at functions, what arethe major functions of this
organization?
And, for example, you have amarketing and sales function, an
operations function and afinance function.
Those are the three basicfunctions.
You also have these other twovery important functions, which
is an integrator and a visionary.
(17:19):
And let me just give you adistinction.
The integrator is holding theother three functions
accountable.
They are truly driving resultsand execution.
They're usually extremelydisciplined, very focused Think
COO.
They're really, really good atfollowing up and following
through.
The visionary is casting vision.
They're all about big ideas,problem solving these, managing
(17:43):
big relationships.
They're not very good atholding people accountable.
They're not good at havingthose tough conversations.
That work is much better doneby the integrator function.
So notice, we're not talkingabout people, david, we're
talking about building the rightstructure structure first,
people second.
So that's kind of phase onethat we teach.
And then we go to phase two andwe say, hey, okay, let's look
(18:03):
at the finance function.
Let's keep it simple.
What are the five roles of thefinance function and typically
HR I mean your audience may kindof fit in some of this.
Sometimes we call it HRfunction or admin function.
The key here is you're actuallydescribing the function, not
titles.
It's not VP of HR or VP ofsales.
We're trying to stay away fromegos, so we keep it based on
(18:28):
describe what the function isand keep it simple.
What are the five roles of eachfunction?
So, structure first, peoplesecond.
Have we talked about people?
No, you're building thestructure on accountability
chart.
Now you go to phase three andyou put people in the seat.
So go back to the idea ofputting the right people in the
(18:48):
right seat.
You now look at your currentteam.
You bring it back to realityand you say, okay, based on
today, where do we need to putpeople?
And so you start to put them ineach seat and you test them.
Okay, could Bill be a good seatfor operations?
Does he get it, does he want itand does he have the capacity
(19:09):
to do a great job?
So it's just keeping it superclear who is accountable for
what and who reports to who.
So in terms of the opportunitythat you have as an organization
to actually say where do westart?
It's with accountability.
You don't start with vision,you start with accountability
chart and creating a foundationon focus and discipline.
(19:30):
Because as you get clear on whodoes what, then you actually
create 90 day priorities.
We call those rocks and thenyou start to work on discipline
with weekly level 10 meetings.
So there is a method to themadness and when you start with
a foundation of focus anddiscipline, your execution is
(19:51):
going to go so much higher.
And then when you bring in thevision as a secondary session,
the vision is so much moreeasily accomplished in terms of
now you've already establishedwho does what and so it's much
easier conversation.
Sometimes people get stuck inall these core about the stuff
that's important.
It's it's the shiny objects,it's the stuff that's fun.
(20:12):
It's fun to talk about.
But we actually need to holdoff on talking about the vision
and first build a foundation onfocus and discipline and true
accountability.
So it's a littlecounterintuitive.
I would encourage the readersif you're a reader, check out
the book Traction, because inthat book it actually explains
the process and I wish they putthis chapter in the beginning.
(20:32):
But if you look at the back ofthe book, it tells you the exact
process, on how to follow it,and it kind of lays it out just
like I just did right now.
David Saltzman (20:40):
And we'll link to all of these books that we're
talking about all of theLencioni stuff, because here on
Shift Shapers we're big fans ofPatrick Lencioni.
We'll link to all of thesethings in the show notes.
So question for you what's thebiggest shift you've seen in a
leadership team once they startfully embracing the EOS process?
Charlie Rhea (21:02):
Yeah, I'll tell you the most common one that I
see, and it's the bottleneck.
I've done hundreds of meetingswith leadership teams and one of
the questions I love doing wedo a free 90-minute strategy
session.
We call it the 90-minutemeeting.
One of the questions that I askin this meeting is hey,
leadership team, what's workingand what's not working right?
I look at challenges andconstantly, consistently, I get
(21:24):
this answer the bottleneckSo-and-so is the bottleneck.
Usually it's the founder, it'sthe CEO or it's very top heavy.
There's one heavy hitter salesleader, or one or two sales
leader.
They're getting 80%, 70% oftheir revenue from like one or
two people or one or two bigaccounts, and so it's.
How do you eliminatebottlenecks?
And the cool thing about thisis that EOS it's really a
(21:49):
leadership development program,it's an operating system, but
what it is at its core is it'shere to develop a leadership
team and that's why the PatrickLencioni, all the books that he
has we just took those conceptsand practically implemented them
into a framework of a journey.
We call it the journey.
So you even have heard me referto the leadership team a few
(22:13):
different times.
I'm constantly, from day one inthat first session, I'm
constantly referring to them ashey leadership team.
How do y'all want to moveforward on this decision?
Bob, over here, the CEO is thebottleneck.
If he is not in the room, howdoes the team operate?
John Maxwell talks about thesign of good, strong, effective
(22:33):
leadership is how does the teamoperate when the leader is not
in the room?
So the long winded answer tothis is EOS eliminates
bottlenecks, because what doesit positively create?
A foundational leadership teamthat's highly cohesive, highly
functional and they're extremelyhealthy again, open, honest and
(22:54):
willing to be vulnerable.
They're willing to say yeah,guys, to be honest, I'm the
issue, I'm the bottleneck, youknow.
So let's figure out how tosolve this together.
David Saltzman (23:06):
If a listener wanted to start making their
team healthier.
We've got just a couple ofminutes left.
I thought this would be a greatquestion to wrap up with.
If they wanted to do that, liketomorrow, what's one small
action that they could takeright away?
Charlie Rhea (23:17):
one small action that they could take right away.
Yeah, you know, one of the bestthings to do to improve health
is to increase trust, and one ofthe fastest ways to build trust
is, again, to do what you saidyou're going to do.
So if there's only one keytakeaway that you can get from
today, it's how can we practicetrust, vulnerability-based trust
(23:43):
, on a regular basis everysingle week and I'd love to
again.
We can put a note in the shownotes here, but the weekly level
10 meeting is an opportunity tohave a meeting that starts on
time, david, it ends on time,same day, same time, and it's
the same agenda.
It is an incredibly simpleframework on how to have an
effective and efficient we alllove being efficient, but let's
(24:04):
be effective too An efficientand effective meeting every
single week, and that is whereyou get to practice team health.
You get to practicevulnerability-based trust, being
open and honest, having realconversations, solving real
issues at the root level, onetime for the greater good.
And so, again, if there's onlyone thing a listener can do, is
(24:28):
think about starting buildingtrust by having a really good
weekly meeting, and as you dothat, you're actually going to
start to build momentum to thenbe able to have it impact the
rest of the company.
So it does start with you andit starts with building trust.
David Saltzman (24:42):
If listeners want to reach out to you, what's
the best way to get ahold ofyou, Charlie?
Charlie Rhea (24:46):
Yeah, for sure you can reach me on my email,
charlieray, that's R-H-E-A.
Charlieray at EOSworldwidecom.
I'm also fairly active onYouTube.
I'm constantly producing oneminute two minute shorts on
quick topics related toleadership, things that I'm
really passionate about, andthen also all things EOS, and I
(25:07):
also have some long form contentwhere I do a deep dive into
each of these topics.
For example, the level 10meeting.
I actually sat there and said,okay, if I had to teach somebody
how to do this right and make aYouTube video, how would I do
it?
And I'm just talking directlyto you to teach it.
So, yeah, follow me on YouTube.
I have a lot of free resourcesthere and would love to connect
with anybody If any of thisresonates with you, especially
(25:29):
the team health.
Team health, again, is somethingthat is.
It's overlooked, but it is aultimate, the ultimate
competitive advantage.
In fact, another book referencethe advantage by Patrick.
In fact, another book referencethe Advantage by Patrick
Lencioni.
He talks about why team healthis the ultimate competitive
advantage, and so, yeah, I wouldlove to talk to anybody if
you're interested.
David Saltzman (25:47):
Charlie Ray.
Eos Implementer.
Charlie, thanks for a great andfascinating conversation.
Charlie Rhea (25:51):
Yes, for sure, david.
Thanks for having me, and mayGod bless you, and I look
forward to interacting again.
Announcer (26:00):
The Shift Shapers Podcast is a production of Shift
Shapers LLC, and I look forwardto interacting again.
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