April 8, 2021 • 52 mins
Ty and Dan steal a page from the likes of Daniel Pink and Chris Voss, and put together an imaginary roster of master classes, taught by current college football coaches.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the solid verbal.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hell that for me, I'm a man, I'm forty. I've
heard so many players say, well, I want to be happy.
You want to be happy for a day at the steak?
Is that woo woom? And them and Tye, welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Back to the solid verbal boys, girls, my name is
ty Hildenbrand, joining me as always over there in beautiful Chicago, Illinois.
I'm the only Dan Rubertstein, Sir, how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm good, Ty. A little bit before we started recording,
you said, I'm gonna need you to up your your
What am I even opting? My my killer hurts? My
hurts to forty eight thousand?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Need to go to forty eight thousand hurts.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yeah, that's a sample rate. That's It's sort of like
how much audio quality is coming in for lack of
a better explanation.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Correct, for lack of a better explanation correct.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Okay, So I want people to know that if we
are sounding particularly clear and of high quality, that's why,
and not just in actual tone, but what we're saying.
The quality has to be going up now, right, That's
how this works.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I mean we can use that as a talking point
if we want my understanding is that it all gets
boiled out and post anyway.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
But I was gonna say, you're probably compressing it all.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, there are a few reasons why we're gonna give
it a shot here, but hopefully, hopefully the quality is there,
both in terms of audio in terms of content. Because
full disclosure, I have no idea what we're talking about
on this show. You put a concept together. I was
doing the mysterious day job thing all day. We were
barely in communication, and you just wrote to me at
(01:38):
three point twenty one, all right, I've got the concept.
We are recording this about almost exactly an hour later.
So I'm generally very leery about you doing this to
me because we end up talking about our marriages or
something of that.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Ill right true, But at least when we do that,
now we music it out, we divorce, shack it out,
and it's only available to patreons on Forballers dot com.
So at least we set that as a new a
new template for how that works. Originally, I was going
to do a Q and a situation with older questions.
It's hard to explain what my plan was, but I
was thinking about it, and actually my middle brother Max
(02:16):
is in town, and we were talking earlier. He is
a big fan of the Master Class Theory the series
Theory Master Class series on.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
I get like a million Instagram and social media ads.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
For that, right, Like, if you want to cross over,
like Steph Curry, you just watch the video and boom
you have a cross to go, Steph Curry. Yeah, if
you want to watch really lengthy Hallway conversations or write
scripts with them, you just watch Aaron Sorkin and boom
you're able to the.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Two that, for some reason are served up to me
more than the others. Yeah, there's there's one dude who's
doing like profiling. I forget what the chorus is exactly,
but like you could tell police filing, like you could
tell someone's lying to you.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I forget what that what the course topic is. And
then there's another one, Daniel Pink teaches the art of persuasion.
For some reason, I keep getting that maybe they know
how bad I am when it comes to debating you,
and so they're trying to give me The Internet's trying
to send me signs or something.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So but it evoked something, It sparked something. There are
embers in my brain now, because what is the off
season for everybody if not a chance for continued learning,
for self scouting and saying how do we get better
for the next season? And so Masterclass, as far as
I can tell, not a sponsor, absolutely not a sponsor
would be open to sponsorship. You and I are both
(03:44):
working on projects, untitled projects that are analogous to the
Master Class series. But I was thinking about it, and
I was thinking this, there's something here, as there's spring
football in summer workouts, and there are there are reasons why.
I mean, the one continued thing in college football is
(04:05):
the attention that coaches receive because they're you know, players,
transfer players, wash out players, go pro players, exhaustral eligibility.
But the one consonant in the way that perhaps pro
athletes are in their sports in our sport is coaches.
And I don't want to rank coaches. Everybody ranks coaches
every offseason, and they pretend like, well, we have to
do this, we have to got to we gotta say
(04:25):
Kirk Parents is criminally underrated. You know, every single April
or whatever that these pieces come out, I don't want
to talk about that. I don't want to rank coaches
because you know, it's all all nonsense. But what I'm
fascinated to do with you is, there's a reason why
fair or not good or not whatever, why college football
head coaches have ascended to the position that they have
(04:48):
ascended to, whether it's on field coaching acumen, whether it's recruiting,
whether whatever it is, or if it's it's more abstract,
you know, it's an ability to convince the world this,
it's an ability to convince players this. There's a reason
why these coaches are where they are, good or bad.
What I want to do is I want to review
a number of coaches and figure out what their very
(05:09):
specific master class topic would be within the world of
college football coaching. Oh okay, so I'll give you an
example of what I'm thinking.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
You just came up with this at three twenty one.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yes, I did. Well. My brother is he's a huge fan.
He watches he watches science ones, he watches sports ones
and cooking ones. And I think he watched a poker
one with Daniel mcgroney. What what's like whatever that guy's are.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
I need to look up this one that I that
I keep getting served so that I'm yeah. So they
we'll get out here on it, but.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
It sounds like a cool product. And again they're not
saying a cent.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Wasn't your dad really into these two?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
So my dad is into something similar. My dad's into
something called the Great Courses, in which he watches notable
college professors teach classes about like art history or music
appreciation or the Civil War or whatever. So it's it's similar,
but I think Masterclass is more practitioners, and he has
watched a lot more professors. So instead of Chris Voss
(06:04):
teaches the art of negotiation, him and Daniel Pink are
all over my social media feed. I think people are
super into it. As far as I can tell, I
think it's a successful company. But so here's my example.
Like if I were to ask you, like, what is
the master class that Nick Saban could likely teach?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
He could teach a bunch of them.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Right, of course he could. But like, I think the
overarching thing of like, what is the thing that Nick
Saban has mastered, and that is the ability to adapt?
That is the ability to adapt to recruiting, the ability
to adapt to coaches, leaving the ability to adapt to
various styles coming into and out of football. He is
always sort of he's not all that stubborn he is,
(06:44):
you know, has the ability to sort of go like
microscopic and day by day and pay attention to details.
But I think adaptation, how to adapt to modern times,
how to stay ahead of the curve, how to not
get lazy, how to understand what's happening around you, that's
Nick Saban's mastery, right. If it were to boil down
to anything.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, I was gonna say, I mean the first thing
that comes to mind on the field is obviously defense,
defensive backs, like that's sure, that's that's part of how
we can think about it more in a more abstract
way as well. Yeah, I mean that's part of how
he's made his hay. But with him being the legend
that he is having had so much success, yeah, it's
absolutely got to be something broader like adaptation in the sport.
(07:22):
And look, it's a story every year, it's a theme
every year. His staff rolls over. It's not like losing
one or two guys. He loses a lot. Last year
before the season he was pretty much rebooting. So for sure,
I think the art of adapt.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Is once again. He lost a ton of assistants this year. Yeah, absolutely, No,
it's adaptation and like and like, we could go to
Clay Helton. What is the master class of Clay Helton?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
I think remaining anonymous submid a very visible profession in sports.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, I mean anonymity is one thing. But Hudson News
test right, Well, it's the Hudson News, but it's also
Clay Helton has a master class of one hiring an
agent to negotiate a contract with an enormous buyout in
uncertain financial times for USC. But also his mastery is
in he's a likable person. He is he is a
(08:16):
likable person by all accounts that if we don't want
to pay a buyout, and if he is somebody who
has achieved some level of success at USC, they won
a rose bull in a memorable game against Penn State.
It's his ability to put those in charge of him
at ease with him as a human. Because if from
from a business standpoint, sure, we can't put a course
(08:38):
out on our coach masterclass website with how to be likable? Well,
isn't that what's the win friends and influence people? Isn't
that a thing? Isn't that like from the forties or
thirties or something, It's a thing.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Okay, So when to reboot that with Clay Helton?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I think there is some thing to that, and there
are people what people ascend through every industry. I mean,
there's always going to be the politics of something, but
people ascend through industries. And I thought he was a
pretty good offensive coordinator, and I thought he was a
steadying hand when things got pretty volatile at USC behind
the scenes, and that's something they needed. But there is
an element to somebody keeps getting promoted, Somebody works their
(09:22):
way up up a corporation because or the military, whatever
it is, because they just get along with people. They're
just like somebody that you want to be in a
meeting room, somebody you want to go to an off
site with. There is that element to Clay Helton where
and you know, he fails the Hudson News tests in
terms of being recognized. But on that flight, on that
(09:45):
ensuing flight, if you happen to sit next to Clay Helton,
he'll be like, what do you do for a living?
Two kids?
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
That's what an age? He's that guy?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
All right, Well, let's okay, so this is very intriguing.
I'm thinking. So we're with me here, Dabo Sweeney subtitle
the art of building a winning team and this.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Is this is a post colon is what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I'm doing a little subtitle action here. It could really
be more dramatic with it. Dabo Sweeney has obviously built
a winning team on the field, built the dynasty with
his bare hands at a place where there wasn't one previously.
But one of the most well known stories that we've
unpacked countless times with our friend Andy Staples is what
Dabo did when he first took over at Clemson. It
(10:32):
was not enriching himself. It was taking a little bit
of a lesser salary to try and surround himself with
really good coaches, really good assistants that could help elevate
the overall health of the program. He's done that, and
he has retained a lot of those guys over time.
In Preventables, right, We've we've talked about that situation countless times.
(10:54):
I think he could probably bring a really interesting perspective
on how to assemble the part it's around you to
you know, maybe it's targeted at new managers, middle managers.
How do you build that team around you fill in
the complementary parts to help elevate a program.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
There's something there. There's something there. I think we can
we can drill a little bit deeper than that in
terms of what is the reason that Dabbo has had
the success he's had at a place that traditionally in
the modern era had a clearly capped ceiling. What is
it about Dabbo that I mean, you can go back
to when he was hired, but there's something about Dabbo
(11:35):
being all things to all people.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Didn't he didn't he build a ball pit in the
Clemson facilities with.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
His bare hands, Like the ballpit.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Really does go a long way with today.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah, maybe mini golf something, yeah, mini golf.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah, there was something there.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
A slide, No, there there is something about being all
things to all people where he is that public aw
shucks guy, and then on the recruiting trail, on the field,
in hiring practices, there is that killer that he also
needs to be. There is that? I mean, it's an
adaptability in a different way, I would say, because I
(12:13):
don't think he's built exactly like Nick Saban, but I
think you remember that old I maybe even references on
the show before because it's such a funny sketch when
Phil Hartman played Ronald Reagan on SNL where when the
cameras rolling he's he's just like, well, I don't know,
I mean super slick, and then the cameras go off
(12:33):
and he goes back to the war room. He's like,
we're gonna kill them all. There is something about that
Phil Hartman Ronald Reagan impression on SNL to Dabbo, where
he is portraying himself as what people want to see
from him publicly, and this is no different than basically
any other coach. He just happens to be exceptional at it.
And then I think behind closed doors there's nothing ah
(12:56):
shucks about.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Him to clearly say is a two fit.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
But I'm not. I'm not doing that in a pejorative way.
I don't. I'm not attempting to anyway. I think he's
I think that's a very good skill to have. I
think almost like a political skill.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I think what about the art of compartmentalization.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I think that's something there. I think there's something there.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, being able to segment off different aspects of your
personality and deploy each one you need to.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, No, that's true, there's something there as well, all right,
He knows his audience. He absolutely always knows his audience.
You tell me, where do you want to go? You
want to go a lesser name, Well, I want to
go back, I want to go I want to.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Go Matt Campbell. Okay, I think Matt Campbell's interesting because
Matt Campbell's building it. He's clearly built well, I shouldn't
say he's building a dynasty, but he's definitely building momentum.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I mean, in terms of clone terms, we're in the
midst he is building serious momentum at Iowa State. He's
perpetually rumored to go elsewhere, but at least up to date,
he's stayed put.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
He's going to continue building what he started. Names I
could go a number of different directions with him. I mean,
the thing that, the most obvious thing that I think
comes to mind when we think of this is Matt
Campbell knows how to optimize production because he is not
(14:24):
getting the cream of the crop from a recruiting standpoint,
yet he is finding a way to be like crazy
competitive against the best in college football, and he seems
to get always the most bang for his buck. So,
like an efficiency of productivity, there's something about the way
that he is going about his business that is just
(14:46):
squeezing every last drop out of the talent that he has.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I don't know what. Maybe you can come up with
a word for this. Is there something about your excite
bike over Maybe he is just how to excite bike?
How to what he is doing? Right?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
He couldn't hold the B button. That's my big ripe,
like the B button would overheat the bike.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I think he can ride the B button better than
any coach in America in terms of buy in. Okay,
in terms of maxing out his bike on the whatever
the track, I think he can he can ride. I
mean in sports games there's that turbo element, right, you
can't hold down the turbo for too long or else
(15:27):
you're gonna have no turbo. I think his ability to
ride the excite bike B button with his roster in
terms of buy in, in terms of caring, in terms
of fully maximizing the ceilings of his players, he does
that better than anybody he brings out like his If
(15:47):
there were video game meters, his buy in and care
meter in terms of what his player's average seems like
it exceeds just about everybody relative to whatever the recruiting
talent on hand, which is still really good all things
considered for Iowa State's recent history. So I think that's
the master class there. The master class is to basically
(16:09):
maximize what you have and not to fret about what
you don't. There was a story, remember later in the season,
there was like Texas has five star players, Oklahoma's five
star players. We've got five star culture, and it's totally
cheese ball. It's obviously totally cheese ball. But if the
secret sauce of college football is always acquiring and convincing
(16:33):
talented players to play as hard as they possibly can
and to care about playing hard at all times, that's
that's the secret sauce for Iowa State right now is
riding that BE.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Button, riding the B button.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Not pushing it too far, but knowing which literal buttons
to push on that NES controller to get that buy
in he needs to get because you watch Iowa State
play and they're just they just they care fourteen. They're
set more on every play than just about everybody they
line up.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
There is that combination of maximizing morale with maximizing you know,
your productivity on the field. Like sure, in many ways
he would be the perfect person to give a business
convention on how to do it, how to get the
most out of your sales staff. You know that sort
of thing.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Sure, absolutely, all right, who's next? Give me another name?
Or do you want me to own you? Throw me
Matt Campbell, Jim Harbaugh, give me the master class on
Jim Harbaugh that Jim Harbaugh is teaching and it doesn't
have to necessarily be positive. We weren't. I think it
was a backhanded compliment to Clay Helton about what his
(17:44):
master class is, just like how to be likable and
keep moving up.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, I mean Jim Harbaugh has sort of been the
master of shorter stints at a place being used to
like parlaying that into other high paying jobs.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
By the way, isn't there isn't there a vorpe element
to Clay Helton.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
There's so much that flows through There's so many through lines. Yeah,
Clay Hilton, Sorry, continue, but I mean Harball I feel
when I think horriball, the first thing that comes to
mind is he. First off, he got a lot of
mileage out of Andrew Luck. Sure, I think he's a
great coach, don't get me wrong, but he got a
lot of mileage. A lot of notoriety out of what
(18:23):
he did with Andrew Luck at Stanford, and throughout the
course of his coaching career, he's been able to parlay
success at one spot over a short haul into a
job at another spot that would presumably pay him more.
Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I man, I don't know. I think he was a
freaking I'm not saying.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I'm not saying not saying he wasn't a good coach.
I'm not saying he wasn't good coach.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I don't think that's a short all that was like
seven years, eight years.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
I'm not saying he was a bad coach. I think
he's a really good coach. Okay, and I still have
some bit of faith in him at Michigan though it's dwindled.
That's weird, but continue it's led. Yeah, but I feel
like the guy has just jumped around so much that
unfortunately that sort of overshadows the fact that he's a
(19:20):
good coach. He's just been everywhere at this point.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Isn't it a masterclass on like self branding and branding
just in general.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Maybe he's definitely got a good agent.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
There is Well, he's got a good agent, But I
think it's more h totally and completely adhering to an
identity that you build for yourself. Right, It's how many
times has the word toughness been written about Michigan football
and about Jim Harbor and the forty nine ers in
Stanford and all the big offensive linemen and running the
ball in physicality, line of scrimmage, Like, there is an
(19:56):
element of Jim Harbaugh's repeatability that we criticize programs for saying,
what is the identity? What are they trying to be?
What are they trying to recruit to, what are they
trying to hire to? And although Jim Harbaugh has shifted
Michigan somewhat in terms of I guess offensive identity, whenever
(20:17):
you listen to him speak, there's a degree of seriousness
and the Michigan man and we are going to play
the right way. And there is that idea of I mean,
he wears khakis, he wears lemon, but I know he's
up to the and I think he switched away from
the last year, right, he didn't wear the khakis, Yeah,
(20:38):
I believe so. I think he went to a darker,
darker pan. I don't know if it was a Chino.
I couldn't tell you the exact cut, but there is
that that seriousness to Jim Harbor, and it can be
whatever it is. But I think the masterclass of what
Jim Harbaugh could teach is picking a lane and never wavering,
(21:00):
driving from coast to coast on the same interstate. And
there is something that if you can sell a group
of people a like mind, if you can find a
like minded group of people, they're going to buy in
because they're going to aspire to be the same as
Jim Harbaugh. Jim Harbaugh from day one until this very
(21:22):
second is Jim Harbaugh. The adaptability is not there, but
there is something strangely impressive about this is who I am.
I'm not wavering, and there's a lot of people out
there who want to not waiver with me. Now, maybe
there are fewer people in the world of Michigan football,
but there is something about branding and identity to Jim
(21:43):
Harbaugh specifically, that is a talent that if you watch
a Jim Harbaugh team at Stanford, and you watch a
Jim Harbaugh team from the middle era of Michigan football,
you watch it you know Jim Harbaugh team and even
though it was Colin Kaepernick, and they were running the
quarterback a lot more. There was still that element of
knowing what you're going to get from a Jim Harbaugh
team that anybody when I say Jim Harbough team, people
(22:06):
know what I'm saying. For better or worse. Sometimes it's
a good thing, sometimes it's not so good thing. But
there is a talent in stamping your name next to
an ideal, and that's what Jim Harbor has.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Well. Well, I mean, look, the guy played in the
NFL for fourteen years. Played in the NFL for fourteen years,
and you know, bounced around a bit, but at the
same time kind of made his mark as a quarterback.
And I take your point. Sure, this is going to
be year seven at Michigan, but he was like three
(22:37):
years at San Diego, four years at Stanford, four years
with the Niners. This is the longest he's been anywhere.
So I think I can make the case that it's
been short stints that got him. Short successful stints, mind you,
that got him to this stage where now he's with Michigan.
The branding aspect of this, though, the personal branding aspect
(23:00):
of this wearing cleats a branding aspect of this, though,
I think Woomb's pretty large, and I think there are
probably a lot of Michigan fans who feel like they
didn't get what they bargained for with him. He was
supposed to be the savior who came in and made
Michigan football what it's always supposed to be and hasn't
(23:20):
done that yet.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
That's fine, This is not a commentary on that necessarily,
But is there something that, especially if I were to
ask solid wife Kate, like, what is what has Tie
branded himself with that is the most unwavering tie thing
there is? Oh gosh, do you have an answer? Would
she have an answer? Like the way you wire up
(23:45):
a security camera at your house, what you travel with?
Is there anything like that?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
That's probably what we talked about a few shows ago,
the same jokes over and over again. I'd say, that's.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Hmmm, oh yeah, well that's marriage. That's marriage.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, I mean, I the one thing I can think
of that is and I mean, I admit it's ridiculous
and so aggressive, but I do bring earplugs to it.
That like the old Man branding that I have stamped
on my You're seventy years old secretly is so severe? Yeah?
Is I just I'm not going to blow out my
(24:21):
ears for living on a prayer. I'm just not.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
I want to throw out a Scott Frost.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Scott Frost, Okay, masterclass. It's narrative, right, I think so,
I think so, you know. And the reason I guess
I throw out Frost is because we talked about Jim
Harball and the personal branding and using previous success to
get to.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
It's alma mater. Frost isn't all that dissimilar. It's just
been a shorter road to get back in a brand asca.
He didn't have quite the success that Harball had obviously,
just because Harball was doing it longer. But now we're
in this stage with uh like, shall we call it
(25:13):
late stage Scott Frost at Nebraska where it does feel
like the natives are getting a little restless. Initially there was
an excitement that I think he brought with him to Lincoln.
I worry that that's warn't awful a little bit at
this point, and it's just a bunch of skeptical fans.
So if you're Scott Frost, if you're making the online course,
(25:34):
what are you selling at this point? Is it. Is
it just you know, crafting the perfect narrative? What is
it to you?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, I mean maybe it's not narrative. I'm trying to
think what it is. Is it that he did a
really good job. I mean, he succeeded at UCF. Is
there an element of drafting off of Chip Kelly?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I mean, that's not really a repeatable. It's not like
you can take a master class on saying I was
Chip Kelly's offensive coordinator or receivers coach, and I'm running
the Chip Kelly offense and succeeded at UCF, It'll succeed
at Nebraska.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I think there is We can take this one of
two directions. Are we assuming that Scott Frost is going
to be a successful coach or are we assuming that
he is trading off of his former value at this point,
because you can go two distinctly different directions.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Right now UCF is too much. UCF is now in
its second coach and second tenure since Scott Frost Gus Malson.
So I think that rear view mirror is probably a
little bit too severe in terms of distance. So right
now Scott Frost is trading on I think the narrative
thing has probably it's probably a little bit too thin.
(26:54):
So the master class has to be that he is
this young, offensive gu still and maybe it's an element
of the fact that he is like a young in
shape guy, so he gets the benefit of the doubt
of like he's the smartest kid in the room. He's
a wounder. Linder kings that a German thing that you
probably can translate for me. I think he is trading
(27:17):
on that a little bit. That there is still this
element to not just here's what I did at UCF,
but you know I started succeeding at a young age.
I brought this program back, you know, inherited some, recruited some,
and you know, like hired well whatever it was at UCF.
That there is there is a branding element to him
(27:39):
as well, and a lot of it might not even
be his doing. It's just you look at him and
there is that element of I have worked with these
offensive gurus, I have had success offensively, So there is
an element of hope and potential because of age and
vague history. What that master class is. I think that's
(28:04):
where it goes to the narrative, where it's the narra
that's the offensive Wounderkin narrative. I think you got a match,
He'll tell you in his masterclass. Got to strike quickly.
It's gotta happen quickly. If you want to make some cash,
you got to pick the right place to go when
your reputation is at its highest. Because if you are
(28:25):
a hot offensive coordinator, say a Lincoln Riley at ECU,
don't take a big offensive coordinator at a coordinator job somewhere.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Don't go.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Don't take a Perdue job. Don't take an Iowa job.
Don't take even a Texas Tech job. No Texas techs.
That's some huge offenses. I take that one back, But
don't take a job that's going to set you up
with money but not necessarily clear success. And so Lincoln
Riley making the move to Oklahoma as an offensive coordinator
(28:57):
is the sort of know where you fit, where you
set up best for success. And Scott Frost making that
UCF move was I mean, it was.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
A brilliant that was the master class. Maybe that was.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
The master class. And now it's just you know when
actors get a little bit older where they're like, yeah,
I don't really want to do deep impact, but they're
offering me eight point two million dollars. There is that
element of you sometimes you just you got it, got
to grab the opportunity once you've proven yourself, even if
that opportunity isn't necessarily set up for just need one
(29:32):
big hit.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
You just need one big hit and then your set.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I'm actually positive Florida is pretty happy they did not
go in this or Scott Frost did not want to
go in the Gator direction.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
All right, well, I was gonna say we could go
Dan Mullen. Actually I want to go Kirby Smart, Kirby Smart.
I want to go Kirby Smart. So Kirby Smart.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
It's pretty similar.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Actually yeah, Kirby Smart for a long time was with
Nick Saban. Of course left took over it. Georgia is
I think, trying to build a similarly fashioned minded program
and is obviously having some early gains here. He's been
a huge success. Georgia, I think, is pretty happy with
(30:17):
with what they've gotten out of him thus far. Kirby's
kind of a low key guy, like I think generally
when when you see him into interviews and stuff, kind
of a madman on the sidelines. Not not dissimilar from
many coaches on the sideline's kind of kind of a madman,
to be clear.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
To be clear, when you say early gains, he's entering
his sixty year it happens.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Right, But had some success very quickly, sure, definitely, So
there is that component of cashing in on your name.
But he was at Alabama for a while, right, and
he waited for the job that was best for him,
that gave him, you know, the best chance of success
at Georgia, job that he cleared al the water. Right.
(30:59):
So it's not quite the same degree as a Scott Frost.
It's much different in that aspect. When I think of
Kirby Smart, I think I think defense. I think defense.
He was a defensive minded coach. He came in right
away at Georgie put together just a baller defense, and
(31:20):
now they're trying to build that offense up around him.
They obviously have parts that you know are exciting and excitable.
But I think defense. I think the art of defense
as the first thing when I think of Kirby Smart.
So how do we extrapolate that out, unpack that skill
(31:41):
into another masterclass?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
It might just be defense, I mean it's defense and
recruiting it's how to be Diet Saban, because he has
been quite adaptable on defense, the way that even his
defenses at Alabama and now his defenses at Georgia have changed.
I mentioned that I had watched one of his clinics
and he talked about, you know, moving away from the
(32:06):
sort of war daddy nose tackle types into getting much
smaller and being able to go sideline to sideline and
be able to run various defenses with you know, three
down linemen and four down linemen and be able to
adapt to any offense. And I think there's a certain
degree of you look at any successful coach and they're
able to adapt and they're able to see, you know,
which way the wind is blowing. The problem is with
(32:29):
Kirby Smart is the Diet Sabin element. With the way
the quarterback room has been managed these past few years.
You know, the sort of debacle with Justin Fields and
Jake fromm and this past year. I mean, I excuse
a lot with twenty twenty actually, but the offense was
it got to be a pretty stale offense under Jim Cheney,
(32:50):
especially in bigger games. So in terms of masterclass with
Kirby Smart, I would say it would be Kirby Smart
Colin putting most of it together, putting putting most of
it together, and maybe it's put build most of your
project and maybe call it a task rabbit.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
A Have you ever done a task rabbit?
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I think Jody did when she was living alone in
New York for building some furniture or something like that
before I knew her.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I don't think I have, And I wish they had
a better name for it. I feel like a task
rabbit is such a demeaning title. It is like a
door dasher is like dashers are reindeer, you know, like
you can feel good, but a task rabbit just feels
so demeaning. And it isn't. It isn't at all. But
I just I wish they had better branding. Maybe they
could take the Jim Harbaugh course.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, I oh man. There is an element of Kirby
Smart is it's just how to raise expectations and coast
for as long as possible, Because he raised the expectations
in George after taking that team to an SEC title
in a national championship game and getting to what overtime
an overtime period away from winning the national Championship. And
(34:10):
now they've just sort of plateau the art of the plateau.
Kirby smarkhole in the Art of the Plateau.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
All right, your turn. Where are we going next?
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Uh, let's do. Let's do James Franklin master class. CA.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Okay, good one, good one.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Jimmy Franks.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Jimmy Franks slate game, James near win jim Yeah, definitely
not clock management. This is we know clock management will
not be his master class, James frank The people who
really dislike James Franklin, I think he's a snake oil salesman.
(34:53):
He's a snake oil salesman. That it's I don't believe that.
I don't believe that to be the case either, but
I am. I'm going somewhere with this, so just hang
with me. The people who really don't like him think
he's a snake oil salesman and that when the rubber
really meets the road, he's all hat, no cattle, it's
just all bark, no bite. He's he's a snake oil salesman, right,
(35:14):
He's he's a wizard of oz.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, he's he's very charming, right in his press conferences
and his quotes. Yeah, yeah, you're inspiring, he's charming, he
appears to be a good dude from afar publicly.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I yes, And I know people in media who felt
similarly about Franklin, that he was snake oil salesman, that
it was it was inauthentic, and that you know, eventually
that will come back to bite him. A lot of
those folks have actually changed their tune on him.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I don't know. I mean, I don't know if it's success.
I don't know if it's you know, just getting to
know the guy better over the years. But I have
been I've been pleasantly surprised by some of those folks
who have told me that they change their tune on him.
And it's more than one, it's a couple. So with
that said, I don't think that's an angle, but I
(36:11):
do think it's notable because that charm is real, and
I think something of like maybe he steals away the
art of persuasion away from Daniel pink On, the actual master.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I mean, does it also fall under how to win
friends and influence?
Speaker 1 (36:26):
But it does, it does. He's just a master recruiter.
He has very quickly built Penn State back up into
a regular conversation piece in the Big ten, what he
did with organizing the parts around trades, Bic Sorely and
Saquon Barkley, bringing in defensive talent, like he has absolutely
infused that program with talent. You know on the line,
(36:49):
they've gotten better tight end tight end, tight end has
been a thing, Like they really have just gotten just
a different order of magnitude better under his tutelage. So
I think, more more than anything, it's around the recruiting game.
It's about going into living rooms. It's about winning over
hearts and minds and getting people to commit to Penn State,
(37:09):
winning the state, dominating the state. As he said in
his introductory press conference, that above all else is what
he is best at. So however we package that into
part of this offering, we can discuss. But that is
his thing, that is what he is best at.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
I think there's an element of surrounding himself with the
best he possibly can and I know your boy, Kirk
Shiaka this year didn't necessarily fall into that category in
terms of how the offense produced in a very strange
twenty twenty. By and large, he's done since his early
(37:47):
days a pretty good job of hiring coaches and coordinators
and finding the best fits. I think what Bob Shoop
did a pretty good job for Penn State. Brent Prye
has done a pretty good job for Penn State. Ricky
Ronnie was not amazing after Joe Morehead, but Joe Morehead
was incredible for Penn State. And I think expectations are
(38:09):
pretty high for Mike. You're sick. I think there is
that ability. I think how to surround. I think there
is a talent in building up the people around you,
building up your circle, and recognizing and knowing what you
don't know. There are a lot of coaches who have
an offensive background. What James Franklin was what the Maryland
(38:30):
coach in waiting for alf Regent, And he could have
just as easily said I've got this background on offense.
I could be Chip Kelly or Tom Herman or any
of these guys that came into these head coaching jobs,
Gus Malson or saying I'm calling plays. I got here
because of my offensive acumen. But James Franklin, after you
know the was it. Bob Donovan was his first Excuse me,
(38:52):
not Bob do Ye, John Donovan. Yeah, They're sorry. There
is that element to James Franklin and saying I'm always
going to have a list of guys who are impressing
me elsewhere, and when a position opens up, I know
who I'm calling. I know this seven calls I'm going
to make on any level. There is that element to
James Franklin I think has really helped, and it's that
(39:14):
people person element to him. It seems that has convinced
these guys because you can look at a number of
huge schools that have made these like really questionable and
sort of LIMP coordinator.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Hires, limp coordinator hires where it just sort of leaves
you like again we come back to John Donovan.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
John Donovan. Yeah it's not John Donovan, but there are
places everywhere you're just like, man, I just what, my god,
Kansas is hiring who. It's just there's just that element
to it. Cal is hiring who, like USC is hiring who.
Minnesota is hiring who. And by and large, I want
(39:54):
to say I'd give him credit for saying, this guy
has produced everywhere he's gone. This guy is in intriguing,
this guy resonates with people. He's creative, His defense or
his offense is creative. I think that's probably the genius
of James Franklin is surrounding himself with smart, capable people.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
So there's a Dabo Sweeney component to this. Sure, absolutely
if we assume, if we assume Dabbo is doing the
people pleaser type course, how to you know, compartmentalise I
think we agreed on.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
I think Dabo has done worse in that department publicly
this past year than James.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. But I think the
Dabo Sweeney course is one that you give to perspective
coaches or politicians. I think the one that I mean
James Franklin could absolutely be a politician, that's part of
the job. But for sure, I think James Franklin's course
is targeted more at like HR professionals building the winning
(40:54):
team for both from the outside and within.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
What about coach ol Oh?
Speaker 1 (41:00):
God?
Speaker 2 (41:03):
What is the master class of Coach Oh? Is it
him selling himself as a local? I mean, it's it's branding,
you know, it's the relentless, it's the sort of you know,
his voice is different, there's a certain amount of charm
to you know, Tagos every single interview he does. What
(41:26):
is it about coach O that differentiates himself. Now you
can use the adaptability as well. Obviously, you know with
his low points at Ole Miss and you know how
down he was personally after not getting the USC job
when he was the interim twice.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
I think I have one for.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Him moving to the spread. What is it? What is
the coach oh master class?
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Coach oh masterclass is the art of admitting defeat. It
is the art of admitting defeat. Because Coach Owe's most
successful season are you will be his most successful season
in his entire career was what he did with Joe Burrow.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
And of course, I mean it's the most successful season
of yeah right, for sure.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
But what he did before that season was he completely
nuked the offense. They went with that Joe Brady system.
I mean, it revitalized Joe Burrow, It turned him into
the first overall pick. He really did an about face
and got away from the old ushered in the new.
It worked really, really well. But there have been times
(42:32):
throughout the course of Coacho's career as a coach where
you know, maybe they didn't have quite that level of success.
There was a USC thing, right, I mean, he came in,
he made his mark, the team loved him and he
made a strong case to stick around. It didn't work out,
but he was able to build from that on some level.
(42:53):
Admit defeat, move on, move back up through the ranks,
and eventually eventually get this job with Elis You again
on the ropes at LSU, had to reinvent himself, was
able to go out, change that offensive system, have a
general once in a generation season, win a national championship,
and now he's going to be forced to do it again.
(43:15):
In some sense. Last year was not a good year
for multitude of reasons. The lost a ton of guys
at injuries, that guys opt out, pandemic, blah blah blah,
you know the drill. But he's again trying to retool
that offense, trying to start anew in the SEC West.
We'll see if he can do it. He did do
it once. But I think the story of Coacho has
been finding ways to basically reinvent yourself. First off, admit defeat,
(43:39):
reinvent yourself and rebrand and just make it happen.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Yeah, strictly in terms of football, because obviously there have
been some concerns surrounding co Show recently with how he
has conducted himself as like a CEO of human within
the LSU program, but strictly within football. There is an
element to the way LSU has improved. Now we are
(44:08):
in the shadow of him making two kind of disastrous hires.
Now the quarterback injuries aside, because that played a huge
role in the offensive struggles thet least part of the
back half or the majority of the season when Miles
Brennan went down, but a completely disastrous defensive coordinator higher
that is at odds with me saying relentless attention to
improving LSU's program, whether it's you know, raising money or
(44:32):
getting what is the corporate term when you want to
add people to a team, like you want to get
more bodies? Is that a thing you want to at
you want to have you heard that terminology like I
need more bodies in this department or something like that,
Like he has in terms of like the analysts, in
terms of the guys in the program bringing in advise augmentation, yeah,
(44:53):
staff augmentation, that kind of thing. There is an element
to ed Orgeron looking around on the college football landscape
and saying, if LSU wants to compete at the highest level,
we need a B and C. And I think his
relentless sales job to his bosses and to the money,
the money connected to LSU, the money, the people. Yeah,
(45:15):
please do. I think there's a relentlessness to ed Orgeron
when it comes to that football program that has served
him and that program extremely well. But also it has
served the program, as we're finding out, somewhat to the
detriment of the program. That there's a relentlessness that is
generally controlled but not always controlled. And if you read
(45:38):
Bruce Feldman's meat Market, there's relentlessness to his recruiting and
his drive and the red bulls, and you know, just
the constant pressure he puts on himself to secure commitments
from prospects that I think in terms of again that
our word relentlessness might be unmatched in the sport.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
That.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Does that strike a chord with you?
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Think? So?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (46:05):
I think you do.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah, Okay, hasn't always served him well, or that program well,
or his players well, or the LSU campus well, but
there's a relentlessness.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
To I agree with that. Okay, you want one more name,
I'm named out.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
You're named out. Okay, let's do have we done? Anybody
in the Big twelve. Yet, oh yeah, we did Matt Campbell.
You just give me a conference that we haven't hit
hard enough. We did Penn State and we did Michigan.
We haven't done anybody in the Oh No, we did
(46:44):
Scott Frost as well in the Big ten. So we're
tapped out Big ten. ACC. We did Dabbo, anybody else
in the ACC you want to Hell.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
We could do Justin Fialente. But I don't know if
that's high profile enough. I had him on the show.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
It doesn't need to be high profile.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
I'm not sure what that course would be that he
would teach. At this point. Mac Brown could be interesting.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Yeah, let's do masterclass mac Brown.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Mac Brown checks a lot of these boxes, actually, a
lot of these boxes adaptability. When I think of mac
Brown now, I think of a second wind. I think
of a guy who was out of the game for
a while. There was a lot of skepticism on him
coming back after all these years to coach at North Carolina,
(47:28):
a place where he had previously been. Thus far that
has yielded great results. There's no other way to look
at it. So I think what I'd like to tap
into here is and there may actually be a masterclass
about this, but sort of the artist staying current. You know,
there is an adaptability aspect to this, for sure, but
(47:50):
you also need to be plugged in constantly if you
want to be able to relate on the same level
as your players, players, as he would say, plurers. So
there's something there. There's some aspect to Mac there that
we could unpack. Of course, there's a whole politician side
of Mac.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
I was gonna say the gubernatorial drive I think might
be the answer.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
The gubernatorial drive.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Where it's memorizing every name you've ever come across, figuring
out the degree of folksiness. And I mean, you're right
that it does combine a number of the traits that
we've identified in other coaches, where it's the adapt bit
about Mac Brown's subtitle weaponizing your folksiness, that's pretty good.
(48:41):
But it also I think is genuine from what I
can tell from people who have spent time with him
behind the scenes, that there is no I don't think
there is that Phil Hartman Reagan dynamic. I think it
has served him extremely well that he's so comfortable in
his own skin. Maybe that's the masterclass, is skin comfort.
(49:03):
And when I say that out loud. It does sound creepy.
It's a little weird, but I think it is. I
think it's a masterclass skin comfort, and I think that
resonates with people on the recruiting trail. I think it
resonates with media. Obviously he's played the media game. I
think there is a certain degree and the reason why,
you know, eventually it didn't work out of Texas just
because it's a results oriented business. But the reason he
(49:25):
got the time he got and the reason the patience
was dealt to him by the broader Texas administration whatever,
is because everybody loves him. And so there is that
that skin comfort that mac Brown has used to navigate
the sport that might even be unmatched in the sport,
(49:47):
and the way that some other guys have these like
top tier traits.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Well, it's been funding skin comfort, skin Comfort saverbogmail dot
com is the email address. Appreciate everyone, ive us your
master classes, give us, give us your master classes. We'll
put this out there on social media. I would expect
we're going to get some fun results. And for ballers
dot com of course, where you can find the Patreon
where you can get access to the discord, get access
(50:13):
to some of the bonus stuff that we're doing here
throughout the course of the offseason. Got an off topic
show coming up pretty soon, by the way, two weeks.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
Certain caveat to all of this is, I mean it
should almost go without saying, but if we're going to
paint all of these coaches with the broadbrush and what
we're saying, they're all full of shit, that's like, that's
you can't be a good coach without being that. So
that aside, those were the traits.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Okay, well, fun show. We pulled it together at the
last second. We hope you liked it as much as
we did. Again, Solid Verbal dot Com is where you
can find all of the stuff, all the content, follow
along with us on social media, follow along the podcast again.
If you go to our website, you can find in
the upper right hand corner all the links to most
of your favorite apps where you can listen for free.
(51:05):
And while you're there, there's big yellow box. Scroll down
a little bit you can sign up for a newsletter,
which I know I've promised before in the past that
we're gonna use, but we really are going to be
using it for some cool stuff here coming up in
the next few months. So if you haven't gotten in yet,
that's the that's the place to go to sign up
and get the regular updates. Dan, So I got man.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
I think that's all I have.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Cool again. You know the email solverbo at gmail dot
com right in. Let us know what's on your mind.
Enjoy the nicer.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Weather, can I wink wink? Is that something I can do?
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Can you win? You can do whatever you want. It's
your show.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
I just think that you Ty Hildenbrand and I Dan
Rubinstein did a sort of how to themed show. There's
more on that bone for us.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
There is more on that bone, isn't there?
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (51:53):
Absolutely, wink wink. So that guy over there, my good
friend Dan Rubenstein for myself, Tie hlmo Brand, we will
talk to you all soon. In the meantime, enjoy your weekend,
Stay solid. M
Welcome to the solid verbal.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hell that for me, I'm a man, I'm forty. I've
heard so many players say, well, I want to be happy.
You want to be happy for a day at the steak?
Is that woo woom? And them and Tye, welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Back to the solid verbal boys, girls, my name is
ty Hildenbrand, joining me as always over there in beautiful Chicago, Illinois.
I'm the only Dan Rubertstein, Sir, how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm good, Ty. A little bit before we started recording,
you said, I'm gonna need you to up your your
What am I even opting? My my killer hurts? My
hurts to forty eight thousand?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Need to go to forty eight thousand hurts.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yeah, that's a sample rate. That's It's sort of like
how much audio quality is coming in for lack of
a better explanation.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Correct, for lack of a better explanation correct.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Okay, So I want people to know that if we
are sounding particularly clear and of high quality, that's why,
and not just in actual tone, but what we're saying.
The quality has to be going up now, right, That's
how this works.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I mean we can use that as a talking point
if we want my understanding is that it all gets
boiled out and post anyway.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
But I was gonna say, you're probably compressing it all.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, there are a few reasons why we're gonna give
it a shot here, but hopefully, hopefully the quality is there,
both in terms of audio in terms of content. Because
full disclosure, I have no idea what we're talking about
on this show. You put a concept together. I was
doing the mysterious day job thing all day. We were
barely in communication, and you just wrote to me at
(01:38):
three point twenty one, all right, I've got the concept.
We are recording this about almost exactly an hour later.
So I'm generally very leery about you doing this to
me because we end up talking about our marriages or
something of that.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Ill right true, But at least when we do that,
now we music it out, we divorce, shack it out,
and it's only available to patreons on Forballers dot com.
So at least we set that as a new a
new template for how that works. Originally, I was going
to do a Q and a situation with older questions.
It's hard to explain what my plan was, but I
was thinking about it, and actually my middle brother Max
(02:16):
is in town, and we were talking earlier. He is
a big fan of the Master Class Theory the series
Theory Master Class series on.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
I get like a million Instagram and social media ads.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
For that, right, Like, if you want to cross over,
like Steph Curry, you just watch the video and boom
you have a cross to go, Steph Curry. Yeah, if
you want to watch really lengthy Hallway conversations or write
scripts with them, you just watch Aaron Sorkin and boom
you're able to the.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Two that, for some reason are served up to me
more than the others. Yeah, there's there's one dude who's
doing like profiling. I forget what the chorus is exactly,
but like you could tell police filing, like you could
tell someone's lying to you.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I forget what that what the course topic is. And
then there's another one, Daniel Pink teaches the art of persuasion.
For some reason, I keep getting that maybe they know
how bad I am when it comes to debating you,
and so they're trying to give me The Internet's trying
to send me signs or something.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So but it evoked something, It sparked something. There are
embers in my brain now, because what is the off
season for everybody if not a chance for continued learning,
for self scouting and saying how do we get better
for the next season? And so Masterclass, as far as
I can tell, not a sponsor, absolutely not a sponsor
would be open to sponsorship. You and I are both
(03:44):
working on projects, untitled projects that are analogous to the
Master Class series. But I was thinking about it, and
I was thinking this, there's something here, as there's spring
football in summer workouts, and there are there are reasons why.
I mean, the one continued thing in college football is
(04:05):
the attention that coaches receive because they're you know, players,
transfer players, wash out players, go pro players, exhaustral eligibility.
But the one consonant in the way that perhaps pro
athletes are in their sports in our sport is coaches.
And I don't want to rank coaches. Everybody ranks coaches
every offseason, and they pretend like, well, we have to
do this, we have to got to we gotta say
(04:25):
Kirk Parents is criminally underrated. You know, every single April
or whatever that these pieces come out, I don't want
to talk about that. I don't want to rank coaches
because you know, it's all all nonsense. But what I'm
fascinated to do with you is, there's a reason why
fair or not good or not whatever, why college football
head coaches have ascended to the position that they have
(04:48):
ascended to, whether it's on field coaching acumen, whether it's recruiting,
whether whatever it is, or if it's it's more abstract,
you know, it's an ability to convince the world this,
it's an ability to convince players this. There's a reason
why these coaches are where they are, good or bad.
What I want to do is I want to review
a number of coaches and figure out what their very
(05:09):
specific master class topic would be within the world of
college football coaching. Oh okay, so I'll give you an
example of what I'm thinking.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
You just came up with this at three twenty one.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yes, I did. Well. My brother is he's a huge fan.
He watches he watches science ones, he watches sports ones
and cooking ones. And I think he watched a poker
one with Daniel mcgroney. What what's like whatever that guy's are.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
I need to look up this one that I that
I keep getting served so that I'm yeah. So they
we'll get out here on it, but.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
It sounds like a cool product. And again they're not
saying a cent.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Wasn't your dad really into these two?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
So my dad is into something similar. My dad's into
something called the Great Courses, in which he watches notable
college professors teach classes about like art history or music
appreciation or the Civil War or whatever. So it's it's similar,
but I think Masterclass is more practitioners, and he has
watched a lot more professors. So instead of Chris Voss
(06:04):
teaches the art of negotiation, him and Daniel Pink are
all over my social media feed. I think people are
super into it. As far as I can tell, I
think it's a successful company. But so here's my example.
Like if I were to ask you, like, what is
the master class that Nick Saban could likely teach?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
He could teach a bunch of them.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Right, of course he could. But like, I think the
overarching thing of like, what is the thing that Nick
Saban has mastered, and that is the ability to adapt?
That is the ability to adapt to recruiting, the ability
to adapt to coaches, leaving the ability to adapt to
various styles coming into and out of football. He is
always sort of he's not all that stubborn he is,
(06:44):
you know, has the ability to sort of go like
microscopic and day by day and pay attention to details.
But I think adaptation, how to adapt to modern times,
how to stay ahead of the curve, how to not
get lazy, how to understand what's happening around you, that's
Nick Saban's mastery, right. If it were to boil down
to anything.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, I was gonna say, I mean the first thing
that comes to mind on the field is obviously defense,
defensive backs, like that's sure, that's that's part of how
we can think about it more in a more abstract
way as well. Yeah, I mean that's part of how
he's made his hay. But with him being the legend
that he is having had so much success, yeah, it's
absolutely got to be something broader like adaptation in the sport.
(07:22):
And look, it's a story every year, it's a theme
every year. His staff rolls over. It's not like losing
one or two guys. He loses a lot. Last year
before the season he was pretty much rebooting. So for sure,
I think the art of adapt.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Is once again. He lost a ton of assistants this year. Yeah, absolutely, No,
it's adaptation and like and like, we could go to
Clay Helton. What is the master class of Clay Helton?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
I think remaining anonymous submid a very visible profession in sports.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, I mean anonymity is one thing. But Hudson News
test right, Well, it's the Hudson News, but it's also
Clay Helton has a master class of one hiring an
agent to negotiate a contract with an enormous buyout in
uncertain financial times for USC. But also his mastery is
in he's a likable person. He is he is a
(08:16):
likable person by all accounts that if we don't want
to pay a buyout, and if he is somebody who
has achieved some level of success at USC, they won
a rose bull in a memorable game against Penn State.
It's his ability to put those in charge of him
at ease with him as a human. Because if from
from a business standpoint, sure, we can't put a course
(08:38):
out on our coach masterclass website with how to be likable? Well,
isn't that what's the win friends and influence people? Isn't
that a thing? Isn't that like from the forties or
thirties or something, It's a thing.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Okay, So when to reboot that with Clay Helton?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I think there is some thing to that, and there
are people what people ascend through every industry. I mean,
there's always going to be the politics of something, but
people ascend through industries. And I thought he was a
pretty good offensive coordinator, and I thought he was a
steadying hand when things got pretty volatile at USC behind
the scenes, and that's something they needed. But there is
an element to somebody keeps getting promoted, Somebody works their
(09:22):
way up up a corporation because or the military, whatever
it is, because they just get along with people. They're
just like somebody that you want to be in a
meeting room, somebody you want to go to an off
site with. There is that element to Clay Helton where
and you know, he fails the Hudson News tests in
terms of being recognized. But on that flight, on that
(09:45):
ensuing flight, if you happen to sit next to Clay Helton,
he'll be like, what do you do for a living?
Two kids?
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
That's what an age? He's that guy?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
All right, Well, let's okay, so this is very intriguing.
I'm thinking. So we're with me here, Dabo Sweeney subtitle
the art of building a winning team and this.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Is this is a post colon is what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I'm doing a little subtitle action here. It could really
be more dramatic with it. Dabo Sweeney has obviously built
a winning team on the field, built the dynasty with
his bare hands at a place where there wasn't one previously.
But one of the most well known stories that we've
unpacked countless times with our friend Andy Staples is what
Dabo did when he first took over at Clemson. It
(10:32):
was not enriching himself. It was taking a little bit
of a lesser salary to try and surround himself with
really good coaches, really good assistants that could help elevate
the overall health of the program. He's done that, and
he has retained a lot of those guys over time.
In Preventables, right, We've we've talked about that situation countless times.
(10:54):
I think he could probably bring a really interesting perspective
on how to assemble the part it's around you to
you know, maybe it's targeted at new managers, middle managers.
How do you build that team around you fill in
the complementary parts to help elevate a program.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
There's something there. There's something there. I think we can
we can drill a little bit deeper than that in
terms of what is the reason that Dabbo has had
the success he's had at a place that traditionally in
the modern era had a clearly capped ceiling. What is
it about Dabbo that I mean, you can go back
to when he was hired, but there's something about Dabbo
(11:35):
being all things to all people.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Didn't he didn't he build a ball pit in the
Clemson facilities with.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
His bare hands, Like the ballpit.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Really does go a long way with today.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah, maybe mini golf something, yeah, mini golf.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah, there was something there.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
A slide, No, there there is something about being all
things to all people where he is that public aw
shucks guy, and then on the recruiting trail, on the field,
in hiring practices, there is that killer that he also
needs to be. There is that? I mean, it's an
adaptability in a different way, I would say, because I
(12:13):
don't think he's built exactly like Nick Saban, but I
think you remember that old I maybe even references on
the show before because it's such a funny sketch when
Phil Hartman played Ronald Reagan on SNL where when the
cameras rolling he's he's just like, well, I don't know,
I mean super slick, and then the cameras go off
(12:33):
and he goes back to the war room. He's like,
we're gonna kill them all. There is something about that
Phil Hartman Ronald Reagan impression on SNL to Dabbo, where
he is portraying himself as what people want to see
from him publicly, and this is no different than basically
any other coach. He just happens to be exceptional at it.
And then I think behind closed doors there's nothing ah
(12:56):
shucks about.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Him to clearly say is a two fit.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
But I'm not. I'm not doing that in a pejorative way.
I don't. I'm not attempting to anyway. I think he's
I think that's a very good skill to have. I
think almost like a political skill.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I think what about the art of compartmentalization.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I think that's something there. I think there's something there.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, being able to segment off different aspects of your
personality and deploy each one you need to.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, No, that's true, there's something there as well, all right,
He knows his audience. He absolutely always knows his audience.
You tell me, where do you want to go? You
want to go a lesser name, Well, I want to
go back, I want to go I want to.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Go Matt Campbell. Okay, I think Matt Campbell's interesting because
Matt Campbell's building it. He's clearly built well, I shouldn't
say he's building a dynasty, but he's definitely building momentum.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I mean, in terms of clone terms, we're in the
midst he is building serious momentum at Iowa State. He's
perpetually rumored to go elsewhere, but at least up to date,
he's stayed put.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
He's going to continue building what he started. Names I
could go a number of different directions with him. I mean,
the thing that, the most obvious thing that I think
comes to mind when we think of this is Matt
Campbell knows how to optimize production because he is not
(14:24):
getting the cream of the crop from a recruiting standpoint,
yet he is finding a way to be like crazy
competitive against the best in college football, and he seems
to get always the most bang for his buck. So,
like an efficiency of productivity, there's something about the way
that he is going about his business that is just
(14:46):
squeezing every last drop out of the talent that he has.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I don't know what. Maybe you can come up with
a word for this. Is there something about your excite
bike over Maybe he is just how to excite bike?
How to what he is doing? Right?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
He couldn't hold the B button. That's my big ripe,
like the B button would overheat the bike.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I think he can ride the B button better than
any coach in America in terms of buy in. Okay,
in terms of maxing out his bike on the whatever
the track, I think he can he can ride. I
mean in sports games there's that turbo element, right, you
can't hold down the turbo for too long or else
(15:27):
you're gonna have no turbo. I think his ability to
ride the excite bike B button with his roster in
terms of buy in, in terms of caring, in terms
of fully maximizing the ceilings of his players, he does
that better than anybody he brings out like his If
(15:47):
there were video game meters, his buy in and care
meter in terms of what his player's average seems like
it exceeds just about everybody relative to whatever the recruiting
talent on hand, which is still really good all things
considered for Iowa State's recent history. So I think that's
the master class there. The master class is to basically
(16:09):
maximize what you have and not to fret about what
you don't. There was a story, remember later in the season,
there was like Texas has five star players, Oklahoma's five
star players. We've got five star culture, and it's totally
cheese ball. It's obviously totally cheese ball. But if the
secret sauce of college football is always acquiring and convincing
(16:33):
talented players to play as hard as they possibly can
and to care about playing hard at all times, that's
that's the secret sauce for Iowa State right now is
riding that BE.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Button, riding the B button.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Not pushing it too far, but knowing which literal buttons
to push on that NES controller to get that buy
in he needs to get because you watch Iowa State
play and they're just they just they care fourteen. They're
set more on every play than just about everybody they
line up.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
There is that combination of maximizing morale with maximizing you know,
your productivity on the field. Like sure, in many ways
he would be the perfect person to give a business
convention on how to do it, how to get the
most out of your sales staff. You know that sort
of thing.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Sure, absolutely, all right, who's next? Give me another name?
Or do you want me to own you? Throw me
Matt Campbell, Jim Harbaugh, give me the master class on
Jim Harbaugh that Jim Harbaugh is teaching and it doesn't
have to necessarily be positive. We weren't. I think it
was a backhanded compliment to Clay Helton about what his
(17:44):
master class is, just like how to be likable and
keep moving up.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, I mean Jim Harbaugh has sort of been the
master of shorter stints at a place being used to
like parlaying that into other high paying jobs.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
By the way, isn't there isn't there a vorpe element
to Clay Helton.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
There's so much that flows through There's so many through lines. Yeah,
Clay Hilton, Sorry, continue, but I mean Harball I feel
when I think horriball, the first thing that comes to
mind is he. First off, he got a lot of
mileage out of Andrew Luck. Sure, I think he's a
great coach, don't get me wrong, but he got a
lot of mileage. A lot of notoriety out of what
(18:23):
he did with Andrew Luck at Stanford, and throughout the
course of his coaching career, he's been able to parlay
success at one spot over a short haul into a
job at another spot that would presumably pay him more.
Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I man, I don't know. I think he was a
freaking I'm not saying.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I'm not saying not saying he wasn't a good coach.
I'm not saying he wasn't good coach.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I don't think that's a short all that was like
seven years, eight years.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
I'm not saying he was a bad coach. I think
he's a really good coach. Okay, and I still have
some bit of faith in him at Michigan though it's dwindled.
That's weird, but continue it's led. Yeah, but I feel
like the guy has just jumped around so much that
unfortunately that sort of overshadows the fact that he's a
(19:20):
good coach. He's just been everywhere at this point.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Isn't it a masterclass on like self branding and branding
just in general.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Maybe he's definitely got a good agent.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
There is Well, he's got a good agent, But I
think it's more h totally and completely adhering to an
identity that you build for yourself. Right, It's how many
times has the word toughness been written about Michigan football
and about Jim Harbor and the forty nine ers in
Stanford and all the big offensive linemen and running the
ball in physicality, line of scrimmage, Like, there is an
(19:56):
element of Jim Harbaugh's repeatability that we criticize programs for saying,
what is the identity? What are they trying to be?
What are they trying to recruit to, what are they
trying to hire to? And although Jim Harbaugh has shifted
Michigan somewhat in terms of I guess offensive identity, whenever
(20:17):
you listen to him speak, there's a degree of seriousness
and the Michigan man and we are going to play
the right way. And there is that idea of I mean,
he wears khakis, he wears lemon, but I know he's
up to the and I think he switched away from
the last year, right, he didn't wear the khakis, Yeah,
(20:38):
I believe so. I think he went to a darker,
darker pan. I don't know if it was a Chino.
I couldn't tell you the exact cut, but there is
that that seriousness to Jim Harbor, and it can be
whatever it is. But I think the masterclass of what
Jim Harbaugh could teach is picking a lane and never wavering,
(21:00):
driving from coast to coast on the same interstate. And
there is something that if you can sell a group
of people a like mind, if you can find a
like minded group of people, they're going to buy in
because they're going to aspire to be the same as
Jim Harbaugh. Jim Harbaugh from day one until this very
(21:22):
second is Jim Harbaugh. The adaptability is not there, but
there is something strangely impressive about this is who I am.
I'm not wavering, and there's a lot of people out
there who want to not waiver with me. Now, maybe
there are fewer people in the world of Michigan football,
but there is something about branding and identity to Jim
(21:43):
Harbaugh specifically, that is a talent that if you watch
a Jim Harbaugh team at Stanford, and you watch a
Jim Harbaugh team from the middle era of Michigan football,
you watch it you know Jim Harbaugh team and even
though it was Colin Kaepernick, and they were running the
quarterback a lot more. There was still that element of
knowing what you're going to get from a Jim Harbaugh
team that anybody when I say Jim Harbough team, people
(22:06):
know what I'm saying. For better or worse. Sometimes it's
a good thing, sometimes it's not so good thing. But
there is a talent in stamping your name next to
an ideal, and that's what Jim Harbor has.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Well. Well, I mean, look, the guy played in the
NFL for fourteen years. Played in the NFL for fourteen years,
and you know, bounced around a bit, but at the
same time kind of made his mark as a quarterback.
And I take your point. Sure, this is going to
be year seven at Michigan, but he was like three
(22:37):
years at San Diego, four years at Stanford, four years
with the Niners. This is the longest he's been anywhere.
So I think I can make the case that it's
been short stints that got him. Short successful stints, mind you,
that got him to this stage where now he's with Michigan.
The branding aspect of this, though, the personal branding aspect
(23:00):
of this wearing cleats a branding aspect of this, though,
I think Woomb's pretty large, and I think there are
probably a lot of Michigan fans who feel like they
didn't get what they bargained for with him. He was
supposed to be the savior who came in and made
Michigan football what it's always supposed to be and hasn't
(23:20):
done that yet.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
That's fine, This is not a commentary on that necessarily,
But is there something that, especially if I were to
ask solid wife Kate, like, what is what has Tie
branded himself with that is the most unwavering tie thing
there is? Oh gosh, do you have an answer? Would
she have an answer? Like the way you wire up
(23:45):
a security camera at your house, what you travel with?
Is there anything like that?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
That's probably what we talked about a few shows ago,
the same jokes over and over again. I'd say, that's.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Hmmm, oh yeah, well that's marriage. That's marriage.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, I mean, I the one thing I can think
of that is and I mean, I admit it's ridiculous
and so aggressive, but I do bring earplugs to it.
That like the old Man branding that I have stamped
on my You're seventy years old secretly is so severe? Yeah?
Is I just I'm not going to blow out my
(24:21):
ears for living on a prayer. I'm just not.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
I want to throw out a Scott Frost.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Scott Frost, Okay, masterclass. It's narrative, right, I think so,
I think so, you know. And the reason I guess
I throw out Frost is because we talked about Jim
Harball and the personal branding and using previous success to
get to.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
It's alma mater. Frost isn't all that dissimilar. It's just
been a shorter road to get back in a brand asca.
He didn't have quite the success that Harball had obviously,
just because Harball was doing it longer. But now we're
in this stage with uh like, shall we call it
(25:13):
late stage Scott Frost at Nebraska where it does feel
like the natives are getting a little restless. Initially there was
an excitement that I think he brought with him to Lincoln.
I worry that that's warn't awful a little bit at
this point, and it's just a bunch of skeptical fans.
So if you're Scott Frost, if you're making the online course,
(25:34):
what are you selling at this point? Is it. Is
it just you know, crafting the perfect narrative? What is
it to you?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, I mean maybe it's not narrative. I'm trying to
think what it is. Is it that he did a
really good job. I mean, he succeeded at UCF. Is
there an element of drafting off of Chip Kelly?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I mean, that's not really a repeatable. It's not like
you can take a master class on saying I was
Chip Kelly's offensive coordinator or receivers coach, and I'm running
the Chip Kelly offense and succeeded at UCF, It'll succeed
at Nebraska.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I think there is We can take this one of
two directions. Are we assuming that Scott Frost is going
to be a successful coach or are we assuming that
he is trading off of his former value at this point,
because you can go two distinctly different directions.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Right now UCF is too much. UCF is now in
its second coach and second tenure since Scott Frost Gus Malson.
So I think that rear view mirror is probably a
little bit too severe in terms of distance. So right
now Scott Frost is trading on I think the narrative
thing has probably it's probably a little bit too thin.
(26:54):
So the master class has to be that he is
this young, offensive gu still and maybe it's an element
of the fact that he is like a young in
shape guy, so he gets the benefit of the doubt
of like he's the smartest kid in the room. He's
a wounder. Linder kings that a German thing that you
probably can translate for me. I think he is trading
(27:17):
on that a little bit. That there is still this
element to not just here's what I did at UCF,
but you know I started succeeding at a young age.
I brought this program back, you know, inherited some, recruited some,
and you know, like hired well whatever it was at UCF.
That there is there is a branding element to him
(27:39):
as well, and a lot of it might not even
be his doing. It's just you look at him and
there is that element of I have worked with these
offensive gurus, I have had success offensively, So there is
an element of hope and potential because of age and
vague history. What that master class is. I think that's
(28:04):
where it goes to the narrative, where it's the narra
that's the offensive Wounderkin narrative. I think you got a match,
He'll tell you in his masterclass. Got to strike quickly.
It's gotta happen quickly. If you want to make some cash,
you got to pick the right place to go when
your reputation is at its highest. Because if you are
(28:25):
a hot offensive coordinator, say a Lincoln Riley at ECU,
don't take a big offensive coordinator at a coordinator job somewhere.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Don't go.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Don't take a Perdue job. Don't take an Iowa job.
Don't take even a Texas Tech job. No Texas techs.
That's some huge offenses. I take that one back, But
don't take a job that's going to set you up
with money but not necessarily clear success. And so Lincoln
Riley making the move to Oklahoma as an offensive coordinator
(28:57):
is the sort of know where you fit, where you
set up best for success. And Scott Frost making that
UCF move was I mean, it was.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
A brilliant that was the master class. Maybe that was.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
The master class. And now it's just you know when
actors get a little bit older where they're like, yeah,
I don't really want to do deep impact, but they're
offering me eight point two million dollars. There is that
element of you sometimes you just you got it, got
to grab the opportunity once you've proven yourself, even if
that opportunity isn't necessarily set up for just need one
(29:32):
big hit.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
You just need one big hit and then your set.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I'm actually positive Florida is pretty happy they did not
go in this or Scott Frost did not want to
go in the Gator direction.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
All right, well, I was gonna say we could go
Dan Mullen. Actually I want to go Kirby Smart, Kirby Smart.
I want to go Kirby Smart. So Kirby Smart.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
It's pretty similar.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Actually yeah, Kirby Smart for a long time was with
Nick Saban. Of course left took over it. Georgia is
I think, trying to build a similarly fashioned minded program
and is obviously having some early gains here. He's been
a huge success. Georgia, I think, is pretty happy with
(30:17):
with what they've gotten out of him thus far. Kirby's
kind of a low key guy, like I think generally
when when you see him into interviews and stuff, kind
of a madman on the sidelines. Not not dissimilar from
many coaches on the sideline's kind of kind of a madman,
to be clear.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
To be clear, when you say early gains, he's entering
his sixty year it happens.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Right, But had some success very quickly, sure, definitely, So
there is that component of cashing in on your name.
But he was at Alabama for a while, right, and
he waited for the job that was best for him,
that gave him, you know, the best chance of success
at Georgia, job that he cleared al the water. Right.
(30:59):
So it's not quite the same degree as a Scott Frost.
It's much different in that aspect. When I think of
Kirby Smart, I think I think defense. I think defense.
He was a defensive minded coach. He came in right
away at Georgie put together just a baller defense, and
(31:20):
now they're trying to build that offense up around him.
They obviously have parts that you know are exciting and excitable.
But I think defense. I think the art of defense
as the first thing when I think of Kirby Smart.
So how do we extrapolate that out, unpack that skill
(31:41):
into another masterclass?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
It might just be defense, I mean it's defense and
recruiting it's how to be Diet Saban, because he has
been quite adaptable on defense, the way that even his
defenses at Alabama and now his defenses at Georgia have changed.
I mentioned that I had watched one of his clinics
and he talked about, you know, moving away from the
(32:06):
sort of war daddy nose tackle types into getting much
smaller and being able to go sideline to sideline and
be able to run various defenses with you know, three
down linemen and four down linemen and be able to
adapt to any offense. And I think there's a certain
degree of you look at any successful coach and they're
able to adapt and they're able to see, you know,
which way the wind is blowing. The problem is with
(32:29):
Kirby Smart is the Diet Sabin element. With the way
the quarterback room has been managed these past few years.
You know, the sort of debacle with Justin Fields and
Jake fromm and this past year. I mean, I excuse
a lot with twenty twenty actually, but the offense was
it got to be a pretty stale offense under Jim Cheney,
(32:50):
especially in bigger games. So in terms of masterclass with
Kirby Smart, I would say it would be Kirby Smart
Colin putting most of it together, putting putting most of
it together, and maybe it's put build most of your
project and maybe call it a task rabbit.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
A Have you ever done a task rabbit?
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I think Jody did when she was living alone in
New York for building some furniture or something like that
before I knew her.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I don't think I have, And I wish they had
a better name for it. I feel like a task
rabbit is such a demeaning title. It is like a
door dasher is like dashers are reindeer, you know, like
you can feel good, but a task rabbit just feels
so demeaning. And it isn't. It isn't at all. But
I just I wish they had better branding. Maybe they
could take the Jim Harbaugh course.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, I oh man. There is an element of Kirby
Smart is it's just how to raise expectations and coast
for as long as possible, Because he raised the expectations
in George after taking that team to an SEC title
in a national championship game and getting to what overtime
an overtime period away from winning the national Championship. And
(34:10):
now they've just sort of plateau the art of the plateau.
Kirby smarkhole in the Art of the Plateau.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
All right, your turn. Where are we going next?
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Uh, let's do. Let's do James Franklin master class. CA.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Okay, good one, good one.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Jimmy Franks.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Jimmy Franks slate game, James near win jim Yeah, definitely
not clock management. This is we know clock management will
not be his master class, James frank The people who
really dislike James Franklin, I think he's a snake oil salesman.
(34:53):
He's a snake oil salesman. That it's I don't believe that.
I don't believe that to be the case either, but
I am. I'm going somewhere with this, so just hang
with me. The people who really don't like him think
he's a snake oil salesman and that when the rubber
really meets the road, he's all hat, no cattle, it's
just all bark, no bite. He's he's a snake oil salesman, right,
(35:14):
He's he's a wizard of oz.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, he's he's very charming, right in his press conferences
and his quotes. Yeah, yeah, you're inspiring, he's charming, he
appears to be a good dude from afar publicly.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I yes, And I know people in media who felt
similarly about Franklin, that he was snake oil salesman, that
it was it was inauthentic, and that you know, eventually
that will come back to bite him. A lot of
those folks have actually changed their tune on him.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I don't know. I mean, I don't know if it's success.
I don't know if it's you know, just getting to
know the guy better over the years. But I have
been I've been pleasantly surprised by some of those folks
who have told me that they change their tune on him.
And it's more than one, it's a couple. So with
that said, I don't think that's an angle, but I
(36:11):
do think it's notable because that charm is real, and
I think something of like maybe he steals away the
art of persuasion away from Daniel pink On, the actual master.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I mean, does it also fall under how to win
friends and influence?
Speaker 1 (36:26):
But it does, it does. He's just a master recruiter.
He has very quickly built Penn State back up into
a regular conversation piece in the Big ten, what he
did with organizing the parts around trades, Bic Sorely and
Saquon Barkley, bringing in defensive talent, like he has absolutely
infused that program with talent. You know on the line,
(36:49):
they've gotten better tight end tight end, tight end has
been a thing, Like they really have just gotten just
a different order of magnitude better under his tutelage. So
I think, more more than anything, it's around the recruiting game.
It's about going into living rooms. It's about winning over
hearts and minds and getting people to commit to Penn State,
(37:09):
winning the state, dominating the state. As he said in
his introductory press conference, that above all else is what
he is best at. So however we package that into
part of this offering, we can discuss. But that is
his thing, that is what he is best at.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
I think there's an element of surrounding himself with the
best he possibly can and I know your boy, Kirk
Shiaka this year didn't necessarily fall into that category in
terms of how the offense produced in a very strange
twenty twenty. By and large, he's done since his early
(37:47):
days a pretty good job of hiring coaches and coordinators
and finding the best fits. I think what Bob Shoop
did a pretty good job for Penn State. Brent Prye
has done a pretty good job for Penn State. Ricky
Ronnie was not amazing after Joe Morehead, but Joe Morehead
was incredible for Penn State. And I think expectations are
(38:09):
pretty high for Mike. You're sick. I think there is
that ability. I think how to surround. I think there
is a talent in building up the people around you,
building up your circle, and recognizing and knowing what you
don't know. There are a lot of coaches who have
an offensive background. What James Franklin was what the Maryland
(38:30):
coach in waiting for alf Regent, And he could have
just as easily said I've got this background on offense.
I could be Chip Kelly or Tom Herman or any
of these guys that came into these head coaching jobs,
Gus Malson or saying I'm calling plays. I got here
because of my offensive acumen. But James Franklin, after you
know the was it. Bob Donovan was his first Excuse me,
(38:52):
not Bob do Ye, John Donovan. Yeah, They're sorry. There
is that element to James Franklin and saying I'm always
going to have a list of guys who are impressing
me elsewhere, and when a position opens up, I know
who I'm calling. I know this seven calls I'm going
to make on any level. There is that element to
James Franklin I think has really helped, and it's that
(39:14):
people person element to him. It seems that has convinced
these guys because you can look at a number of
huge schools that have made these like really questionable and
sort of LIMP coordinator.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Hires, limp coordinator hires where it just sort of leaves
you like again we come back to John Donovan.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
John Donovan. Yeah it's not John Donovan, but there are
places everywhere you're just like, man, I just what, my god,
Kansas is hiring who. It's just there's just that element
to it. Cal is hiring who, like USC is hiring who.
Minnesota is hiring who. And by and large, I want
(39:54):
to say I'd give him credit for saying, this guy
has produced everywhere he's gone. This guy is in intriguing,
this guy resonates with people. He's creative, His defense or
his offense is creative. I think that's probably the genius
of James Franklin is surrounding himself with smart, capable people.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
So there's a Dabo Sweeney component to this. Sure, absolutely
if we assume, if we assume Dabbo is doing the
people pleaser type course, how to you know, compartmentalise I
think we agreed on.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
I think Dabo has done worse in that department publicly
this past year than James.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. But I think the
Dabo Sweeney course is one that you give to perspective
coaches or politicians. I think the one that I mean
James Franklin could absolutely be a politician, that's part of
the job. But for sure, I think James Franklin's course
is targeted more at like HR professionals building the winning
(40:54):
team for both from the outside and within.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
What about coach ol Oh?
Speaker 1 (41:00):
God?
Speaker 2 (41:03):
What is the master class of Coach Oh? Is it
him selling himself as a local? I mean, it's it's branding,
you know, it's the relentless, it's the sort of you know,
his voice is different, there's a certain amount of charm
to you know, Tagos every single interview he does. What
(41:26):
is it about coach O that differentiates himself. Now you
can use the adaptability as well. Obviously, you know with
his low points at Ole Miss and you know how
down he was personally after not getting the USC job
when he was the interim twice.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
I think I have one for.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Him moving to the spread. What is it? What is
the coach oh master class?
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Coach oh masterclass is the art of admitting defeat. It
is the art of admitting defeat. Because Coach Owe's most
successful season are you will be his most successful season
in his entire career was what he did with Joe Burrow.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
And of course, I mean it's the most successful season
of yeah right, for sure.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
But what he did before that season was he completely
nuked the offense. They went with that Joe Brady system.
I mean, it revitalized Joe Burrow, It turned him into
the first overall pick. He really did an about face
and got away from the old ushered in the new.
It worked really, really well. But there have been times
(42:32):
throughout the course of Coacho's career as a coach where
you know, maybe they didn't have quite that level of success.
There was a USC thing, right, I mean, he came in,
he made his mark, the team loved him and he
made a strong case to stick around. It didn't work out,
but he was able to build from that on some level.
(42:53):
Admit defeat, move on, move back up through the ranks,
and eventually eventually get this job with Elis You again
on the ropes at LSU, had to reinvent himself, was
able to go out, change that offensive system, have a
general once in a generation season, win a national championship,
and now he's going to be forced to do it again.
(43:15):
In some sense. Last year was not a good year
for multitude of reasons. The lost a ton of guys
at injuries, that guys opt out, pandemic, blah blah blah,
you know the drill. But he's again trying to retool
that offense, trying to start anew in the SEC West.
We'll see if he can do it. He did do
it once. But I think the story of Coacho has
been finding ways to basically reinvent yourself. First off, admit defeat,
(43:39):
reinvent yourself and rebrand and just make it happen.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Yeah, strictly in terms of football, because obviously there have
been some concerns surrounding co Show recently with how he
has conducted himself as like a CEO of human within
the LSU program, but strictly within football. There is an
element to the way LSU has improved. Now we are
(44:08):
in the shadow of him making two kind of disastrous hires.
Now the quarterback injuries aside, because that played a huge
role in the offensive struggles thet least part of the
back half or the majority of the season when Miles
Brennan went down, but a completely disastrous defensive coordinator higher
that is at odds with me saying relentless attention to
improving LSU's program, whether it's you know, raising money or
(44:32):
getting what is the corporate term when you want to
add people to a team, like you want to get
more bodies? Is that a thing you want to at
you want to have you heard that terminology like I
need more bodies in this department or something like that,
Like he has in terms of like the analysts, in
terms of the guys in the program bringing in advise augmentation, yeah,
(44:53):
staff augmentation, that kind of thing. There is an element
to ed Orgeron looking around on the college football landscape
and saying, if LSU wants to compete at the highest level,
we need a B and C. And I think his
relentless sales job to his bosses and to the money,
the money connected to LSU, the money, the people. Yeah,
(45:15):
please do. I think there's a relentlessness to ed Orgeron
when it comes to that football program that has served
him and that program extremely well. But also it has
served the program, as we're finding out, somewhat to the
detriment of the program. That there's a relentlessness that is
generally controlled but not always controlled. And if you read
(45:38):
Bruce Feldman's meat Market, there's relentlessness to his recruiting and
his drive and the red bulls, and you know, just
the constant pressure he puts on himself to secure commitments
from prospects that I think in terms of again that
our word relentlessness might be unmatched in the sport.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
That.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Does that strike a chord with you?
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Think? So?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (46:05):
I think you do.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah, Okay, hasn't always served him well, or that program well,
or his players well, or the LSU campus well, but
there's a relentlessness.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
To I agree with that. Okay, you want one more name,
I'm named out.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
You're named out. Okay, let's do have we done? Anybody
in the Big twelve. Yet, oh yeah, we did Matt Campbell.
You just give me a conference that we haven't hit
hard enough. We did Penn State and we did Michigan.
We haven't done anybody in the Oh No, we did
(46:44):
Scott Frost as well in the Big ten. So we're
tapped out Big ten. ACC. We did Dabbo, anybody else
in the ACC you want to Hell.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
We could do Justin Fialente. But I don't know if
that's high profile enough. I had him on the show.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
It doesn't need to be high profile.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
I'm not sure what that course would be that he
would teach. At this point. Mac Brown could be interesting.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Yeah, let's do masterclass mac Brown.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Mac Brown checks a lot of these boxes, actually, a
lot of these boxes adaptability. When I think of mac
Brown now, I think of a second wind. I think
of a guy who was out of the game for
a while. There was a lot of skepticism on him
coming back after all these years to coach at North Carolina,
(47:28):
a place where he had previously been. Thus far that
has yielded great results. There's no other way to look
at it. So I think what I'd like to tap
into here is and there may actually be a masterclass
about this, but sort of the artist staying current. You know,
there is an adaptability aspect to this, for sure, but
(47:50):
you also need to be plugged in constantly if you
want to be able to relate on the same level
as your players, players, as he would say, plurers. So
there's something there. There's some aspect to Mac there that
we could unpack. Of course, there's a whole politician side
of Mac.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
I was gonna say the gubernatorial drive I think might
be the answer.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
The gubernatorial drive.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Where it's memorizing every name you've ever come across, figuring
out the degree of folksiness. And I mean, you're right
that it does combine a number of the traits that
we've identified in other coaches, where it's the adapt bit
about Mac Brown's subtitle weaponizing your folksiness, that's pretty good.
(48:41):
But it also I think is genuine from what I
can tell from people who have spent time with him
behind the scenes, that there is no I don't think
there is that Phil Hartman Reagan dynamic. I think it
has served him extremely well that he's so comfortable in
his own skin. Maybe that's the masterclass, is skin comfort.
(49:03):
And when I say that out loud. It does sound creepy.
It's a little weird, but I think it is. I
think it's a masterclass skin comfort, and I think that
resonates with people on the recruiting trail. I think it
resonates with media. Obviously he's played the media game. I
think there is a certain degree and the reason why,
you know, eventually it didn't work out of Texas just
because it's a results oriented business. But the reason he
(49:25):
got the time he got and the reason the patience
was dealt to him by the broader Texas administration whatever,
is because everybody loves him. And so there is that
that skin comfort that mac Brown has used to navigate
the sport that might even be unmatched in the sport,
(49:47):
and the way that some other guys have these like
top tier traits.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Well, it's been funding skin comfort, skin Comfort saverbogmail dot
com is the email address. Appreciate everyone, ive us your
master classes, give us, give us your master classes. We'll
put this out there on social media. I would expect
we're going to get some fun results. And for ballers
dot com of course, where you can find the Patreon
where you can get access to the discord, get access
(50:13):
to some of the bonus stuff that we're doing here
throughout the course of the offseason. Got an off topic
show coming up pretty soon, by the way, two weeks.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
Certain caveat to all of this is, I mean it
should almost go without saying, but if we're going to
paint all of these coaches with the broadbrush and what
we're saying, they're all full of shit, that's like, that's
you can't be a good coach without being that. So
that aside, those were the traits.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Okay, well, fun show. We pulled it together at the
last second. We hope you liked it as much as
we did. Again, Solid Verbal dot Com is where you
can find all of the stuff, all the content, follow
along with us on social media, follow along the podcast again.
If you go to our website, you can find in
the upper right hand corner all the links to most
of your favorite apps where you can listen for free.
(51:05):
And while you're there, there's big yellow box. Scroll down
a little bit you can sign up for a newsletter,
which I know I've promised before in the past that
we're gonna use, but we really are going to be
using it for some cool stuff here coming up in
the next few months. So if you haven't gotten in yet,
that's the that's the place to go to sign up
and get the regular updates. Dan, So I got man.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
I think that's all I have.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Cool again. You know the email solverbo at gmail dot
com right in. Let us know what's on your mind.
Enjoy the nicer.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Weather, can I wink wink? Is that something I can do?
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Can you win? You can do whatever you want. It's
your show.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
I just think that you Ty Hildenbrand and I Dan
Rubinstein did a sort of how to themed show. There's
more on that bone for us.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
There is more on that bone, isn't there?
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (51:53):
Absolutely, wink wink. So that guy over there, my good
friend Dan Rubenstein for myself, Tie hlmo Brand, we will
talk to you all soon. In the meantime, enjoy your weekend,
Stay solid. M
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