March 13, 2024 • 52 mins
What is a “Medial Woman”? [She who is a connecting link between seen & unseen realms; She who bridges opposites & helps restore lost wisdom to those who have forgotten.]
Is this you?
Throughout history, these uniquely gifted women have played crucial roles in society, though the dominant culture has often misunderstood or pathologized them (as in, the witch wound). Drawing from her own lived experience as well as in-depth research, my new friend Dr. Roberta “Bobbie” Corson shines a light on this powerful yet overlooked type of feminine embodiment.
I absolutely ate up Dr. Corson’s book, "Stepping out of the Shadows: Naming and Claiming the Medial Woman Today" where she delves into the transformative journey of embracing your true archetypes, beyond societal expectations.
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Navigating the challenging "LIMINAL" or thresholds between realms
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Understanding 4 FEMININE ARCHETYPES outlined by Toni Wolff
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Discerning the medial path through GROUNDING practices
WATCH this episode on Cherie’s YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SoulRoseShow
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Check out Roberta’s book “Stepping Out of the Shadows: Naming and Claiming the Medial Woman Today” : https://www.robertabcorson.com/
Follow Cherie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cherie.burton/
Ask to join our private Facebook group, Soul Rose Community, for exclusive content and free monthly, live sessions & classes! https://www.facebook.com/groups/353442392180748/
NOT TOO LATE TO JOIN our Women’s Wisdom Circle, launching March 19th! https://www.standspeakshine.com/wwc
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Do you know what a medial woman is? I didn't until
I found Dr. Roberta Corson's book, and since then, my mind has
been totally blown and I have felt totally validated on multiple levels. A medial
woman is one who is a connecting link between seen and unseen
realms. She bridges opposites, and she helps restore lost
wisdom to those who have forgotten. Now, there are shadow aspects as well, and there
(00:25):
are medial men as well as medial women. Dr. Roberta Corson is a
retired clinical depth psychologist and United Methodist clergy. She
holds a BA in English literature from Lawrence University, a master of
divinity from Pacific School of Religion, and a PhD from Pacifica Graduate
Institute, one of my favorite institutions. And with her depth psychology, she has
really brought into the face of our discussion archetypes one of my favorite things to
(00:46):
talk about and how this medial woman archetype probably
describes a lot of us who feel like we're bridge people. We're kind of holding
space and paradox and kind of having a foot in each world, the unseen and
the scene unaware. And Roberta's book is called Stepping out of the
shadows, naming and claiming the medial woman. Today
also, it is not too late to join the women's wisdom circle. We actually
(01:08):
launch March 19, the first day of spring. So this
is a time of rebirth. This is a time of coming into the new,
embracing a lot of actually what we're talking about on this episode, which is about
sitting in a shadow and coming into the light. Obviously, the name of her book,
stepping out of the Shadows. So part of claiming your space as a walker between
worlds is embracing that shadow. So anyway, yes, our wisdom circle will definitely
(01:28):
embrace that as well as help you move confidently into your soul
path. So you can find more information on my website,
cherieburton.com or
standspeakshine.com. Forward slash
wwc.
Roberta, also known as Bobby. Welcome to the
podcast. Grateful to have you. Hi, Cherie. I'm so glad to be
(01:51):
here. Well, we have a mutual friend, Dr. Jennifer
Selig, who I know she was instrumental in getting your book
published. She's been a great mentor for me. I got to meet her at
Pacifica and learn from her, and she always sends me amazing people.
So when she connected us, I was like, oh, well, that's like
an interesting title for a book. Give me the book. For those of you
(02:14):
looking on YouTube, I'm holding it up right here. It's
called stepping out of the shadows, naming and claiming the
medial woman today. So let's start
before we get into what a medial woman is, which was I want to just
tell everyone. Super affirming for me, super validating.
But let's talk about, just as a preface, because I know you teach about liminal
(02:36):
space, and it's kind of been a buzzword that you hear
in various places in the spiritual realm or in the consciousness
realm, in the archetypal realm. So maybe just share with us your
definition of what liminal space is. It's really
a simple definition, but it's so key to
medial women, and to make a distinction
(02:58):
between a couple of distinctions about it, the limin. A
limin is simply a doorway, a passageway,
a gate. It's so simple. That's what it is.
When you say limin, I'm thinking of a lemon fruit. But you're
L-I-M-I-N. I
(03:19):
think it's M-I-N, Limin. Not very good with spelling. So limin
is the noun. Liminal is the description
of that. Right. It means
a doorway or a passageway. And I like to think about
all the limins that we cross every day. I mean, when we bring
groceries home, we get out of the car, that's the
(03:41):
limin. We bring them into the house, that's a limin.
We open the refrigerator door, the groceries go through a limin.
The limin is the passageway from one thing to the
other. We all know limins that we live with
passageways. We have passageways in our
lives. Graduations, weddings. Those are limins.
(04:02):
They are a passageway, a door from one thing to the other. So
we all know that. But there are two kinds of limins that I think
distinguish everyday liminal space from the
space that medial women experience.
The experience that most of us have is material
women. The experience of medial women
(04:25):
is standing at the passageway between what is
known and what is not known. And that can be
the unconscious and the conscious. It can be the material
and the spiritual. And my hunch is there are probably limins
in the spiritual realm that we know nothing about. But, I mean, there may be
other limins that we don't know about, but media women are
(04:47):
the ones who stand with 1ft
on each side of that limin, and they cross
back and forth. And back and forth from the unknown to
the known. Is that the two. Okay. Or the spiritual to
the material or the unconscious to the conscious?
And all of us have a little medial in us and can do
(05:10):
that. But for the medial woman, that is
probably the biggest definition that we
are constantly moving back and forth between
these realms, gaining information, having
insights, using our intuition, and bringing it
back from the unknown into the known. Does that make sense?
(05:32):
Absolutely. Yeah. As I was reading,
I was struck with. Because I think I've shared with when you and
I talked before, being in the middle path has always really called
to me, and it shows up a lot. Like, I'm
the middle sister. Between two sisters. The
number two always comes through to me. I was born the second,
(05:56):
but being in the middle, being a middle child, trying
to be in the middle and stay in the middle has been a challenge
because I was always taught to choose a side or to go, I
guess you could say, more linear or more logic. But I felt like I wanted
to play in this mystical space, and you
could call it the unknown, but it was always like this fight, like, no, this
(06:17):
is the known. This is what you will do. This is the path. That's right.
I always felt something calling me into that,
into that liminal medial space of just, hey, why do I
have to choose a camp? Why can't I just play?
It felt like. Just like, play. Yeah, play. But also holding
(06:37):
tension. Oh, yes. Well, the word
medial comes from
mediumistic, or meaning middle. I mean,
the word itself means middle. So we are always in the
middle. And you talk about that linear sense of, you have to choose a
side and go with the side. Medial people are
(06:59):
not linear. We're liminal, but we're not linear.
We have a whole different sense of time and space,
especially when we are connected to that kind of
unknown, mysterious, mystic kind of
space that there's nothing linear about that, which
can be a real problem for medial women, because people in our
(07:20):
culture want us to get on with it, go ahead, move
forward. And sometimes we need to embrace
and move down or through to something that
is not even seen in our culture.
Yeah. And I know that you've had a really fascinating
past and history yourself of coming into your
(07:42):
own place and owning that you are this medial woman.
Otherwise, why would you do a doctoral dissertation and get a degree in
archetypal. Right? I think jungian people,
like, the reason I nerd out on jungian psychology and.
Spiritual psychology is because of that, because. It is
so not logical,
(08:05):
illogical, not illogical in the sense of negatives, but just
archetypes themselves, which I want to get into that. But first, yet maybe share with
our listeners just a snippet of your childhood and how
this path found you, because you've always been kind of religious
and spiritual, and then finding your place on the map has been a bit
of. A beautiful life story and life path for you. When I
(08:27):
was studying for my psychology licensing degree, it was
very linear, evidence based, linear,
scientific, and I was working in analysis then. And I
said, I'm just never going to pass this. I did. But my analyst
said, you're not a duck. Meaning?
Referring to the ugly duckling story, that I wasn't a duck, I was a
(08:49):
swan. And the ducks were the ones who were really good at taking
this test. And I did it differently. I was
not a duck. When I grew up, I really felt like I
was the ugly duckling in my family because it was a medical
family. My dad and my mom were medical people. I
had scientifically based brothers and family
(09:11):
friends, and it was all very scientific. And
when I was three, I wanted to go to church, and so they dropped
me off at Sunday school. You were three. And of
all the women I interviewed, all of us wanted to go
to church when we were very little, and all of us went on our
own. Only one went with her family. There were
(09:33):
five of us in my interview. So when I was very little, and this
is true, I think with the women I interviewed, there's something that's
innately spiritual, that's longing for
that. I always longed for that. When I had a
choice of books to read for book reviews in middle school or a
choice of reading the book that I was reading for my Sunday school class
(09:55):
or going to a stupid movie, I chose the book
I always wanted to use. The books I would choose in
junior high were Peter Marshall, the prayers of Peter
Marshall, Bernadette, the Song of Bernadette, which was just on
my family shelf. I would read anything drawn to
understanding what spirituality is and how. When I was
(10:17):
little, yeah, I was young, I read the robe when I was
in 6th grade, and we had to do a dialogue when I was
in 10th grade, and I chose to do my dialogue between Joan of
Arc and Billy Graham, and nobody
else was doing religious dialogues, but that was
important to me. And then in high school and college,
(10:40):
the service aspect of religion was really important to
me. And then I went into seminary, and I was
disappointed in that. It was more academic and linear
than it was spiritual. But the advanced theological studies
just. Felt black and white
were like, the data, the evidence. It was
(11:02):
dry, and I wanted more of the spiritual, so I hung
out with Meister Eckhart, the mystics, and some of those
people. So that was kind of my
background. I did not know anything about the word medial. I
think most media women don't. I don't think you had ever heard. Of it, had
you? No. In fact, I was like, medial sounds like a
(11:24):
medium middle. I kind of had an instant knowing. That it
was going to be resonant with me. Interesting,
the word. But, yeah, I know that you were. A student
of another person who brought that into your space, and then you. Just hooked into
it. Irene Claremont de Castileo, in her book, knowing
woman, years ago, I read that for a class, and then
(11:47):
I didn't keep in that program, so I didn't really go back to it. But
it was like this was my. I knew
sometimes, you know, instantly. And ten years later,
I was in graduate school for my doctoral work,
and somebody really bashed Tony Wolff,
who was the one who named this archetype. And
(12:10):
I thought, I can't stand that. I need to learn more, and
I need to reclaim Tony Wolff's work, which is
what I did. So
that's where I learned. I was probably in my 40s
when I learned the word. It was not for ten
or 15 years later that I really worked with it.
(12:32):
So what was it about it that. Really spoke to you personally? I
mean, I know you read this. Knowing woman, so it just sort
of grabbed you. And then decade later, you found
yourself feeling some passion and some conviction around, I've got
to defend this. I've got to find what this is. And parse it out
a little bit. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that was
(12:53):
calling. You to do that? The reason I ask you is because I have women
who have really uncommon, or so they
think, interests or a
theme or a topic that's not very explored
yet, and they feel a little bit like a renegade or a gad about
just trying to put it together and make it more palatable, whether
(13:15):
it's something that's a resurgence of a topic that no one's really gone
into depth with, or if it's something new that they've heard about. So that's
the reason I'm asking you, because they probably have listeners who have. A
specialized focus, that they're just like. Why is no one talking about this?
Why isn't this a thing? And that's the call for them. That's the
call for all of us. When I am a media woman, I read about this
(13:37):
ten years ago, and this man was bashing it.
And it's like, no, I need to reclaim this. I need to
bring it forward so that others can hear the
word, that. It might be inexplicable why that might. Be
coming through or coming up for them. But like you said, it's calling them. It's
part of their path. I was called by
(14:00):
name, by Irene Claremont de Castileo. She used the
word, and I knew it was my name, and then I wanted,
in my book, especially, to invite people to
hear that name and see if it called to them, because
most people haven't heard it, and I think it's very
powerful for people who are medial. Is it okay if I
(14:22):
read a part of your book here that just. Really struck me when we're talking,
when. I was trying to like, okay, I can't wait to dive in and see
why this word speaks to me already and know to get some backup
on why. And I'm just going to read this part. You were quoting from the
knowing woman. So that author, Irene Claremont de Castello.
She said, to mediate is to be
(14:43):
a connecting link between two things, holding. Out a
hand to each, as it were, helping them to come to
terms. A medial woman, and this is not the end quote, like,
a medial woman stands with a foot in each
world. And bridges the opposite, for she
restores. Lost worlds to those who have forgotten
(15:05):
these. For the medial 1ft stands in the
visible, tangible world, and the other foot. In the unseen,
collective, unconscious realm. I thought that was a
really beautiful. First I was quoting Irene, and then. I
was quoting you, but I just love that
visual of walking between worlds. Or, like, having
(15:28):
1ft in the unseen and intangible and then a foot in the known.
Let me ask you this. Before we dive a little deeper into the medial women,
why do you think. Okay, let me back up
to even. Not why do you think, but do. You feel like there's a
lot more medial women now than
there were in times past? And if so, why do you think that is? My
(15:50):
hunch is that there have always been medial
women. There were more roles in times past
for medial women. They were shamans and civils and
seers, and we have fewer roles now. So my
sense is that medial women have gone underground, which
is why I called it stepping out of the shadows that
(16:12):
they've gone underground. And I think that there are
more medial women than we even have a clue.
Everybody has some mediality in them, and men, too.
I'm married to a medial man. This just happened to come from a
study that was on women almost a decade, I mean, a century
ago, but I think that we need to be
(16:34):
called forth. The other thing with medial women
is that there's so many wounds, and we've
all probably had experiences where we weren't understood, and we
were put down or banished in some way.
Rather, most of us, we're all highly
intuitive. Many of us are introverts, and when the
(16:56):
world wounds us, we back into. We
back. Go back. So my book is
hoping to name some of the wounds and to call people
forward. One of the wounds I had was when I was serving in
church, I had a district superintendent who came to see me,
and he was new and asked me what kind of ministry I
(17:17):
loved and wanted to do. And I said, oh, all the spiritual work,
the pastoral work, prayers, the prayer groups, the
classes. And he said, oh, well, that's just the whipped
cream. What do you really want to do? He was an administrator
and an extrovert. I mean, it's like, wow. To talk
about the spiritual life of. People making it fluffy, that. That's
(17:40):
the fluffy whipped cream. I
was so offended, and that would be one
reason why I feel like this book needs to
come forward. Everybody's had something like
that. Oh, yes. In my religion of origin, which is
Mormonism, I think I may have even expressed this to you. And to this day,
(18:02):
women don't really have authority. Being born a woman means
that you are, of necessity to be presided over by a
priesthood male, both in your home and at church and at activities and
other things. And you talked about when you were a little
girl that you wanted to go to church and that even though your family wasn't
going. My family was very religious, and so we went, and I really
(18:25):
enjoyed it. It wasn't until I recognized, and I did recognize
quite early, that women didn't really have power. And
I don't mean power in the sense of power over, I mean power
with which it feels medial to me. We're all together.
But I'm curious how that
(18:45):
came for you, because you were in ministry and. You did have
spiritual leadership in a. Religious capacity,
and that isn't very common. With a lot of
people that I. Meet or women that I meet. I can count on one hand
how many women ministers I've actually talked to in my life. I've
talked to a lot of people. But your husband was with you in the
(19:07):
ministry, and is that something that you're still doing? And you mentioned
that you were confronted with the whipped cream thing by a superintendent
or whatever, but was there any. Pushback for you in terms of
being. In that visibility and having that? You could call
it the robes or the cloak of authority or
power, which I think is beautiful, that you were seasoned and matured
(19:29):
into that? Is that something you're still doing? We're retired,
but we have a church that we attend. It's a japanese
heritage church. That's lovely. And
my husband's been working with food distribution, and I've been
doing pastoral care. I just finished a group on holding space
for grief, and those are the places I'm
(19:52):
called spiritual care, being with people who were
dying. Death is the limin. Life and
death. It's standing between where we are and what
we don't know. And medial women. I mean, there are some media
women who are clairvoyant and have the ability to
move back and forth between those realms. One of them is in
(20:14):
my book. I interviewed her, and she's very interesting. That's
not my gift, but I am gifted at
standing with people at their last breath, and
it's an incredibly holy moment. And time
and space opens up. There's a whole dimension to that when someone
is dying, and that's where I'm called. And
(20:36):
I still can do that in this new church, even in
retirement. That's beautiful. Yeah. We never did
get to talk about a really powerful story in your book about the
cherries. Do we want to bring that in as we're coming back into liminal space?
And how you happened upon a woman who shared this with you? I think it
was really beautiful. Well, this is my story from the church where I
(20:58):
was serving in ministry. But the woman that you were working with, Spark.
She was a member of our church, Victoria. And I
was with her family at her bedside as she was dying in
a skilled nursing facility. And she wasn't feeling very
well, but I could tell her spirit was quite alive. And her dinner
tray arrived, and there was a sandwich and a
(21:20):
salad and milk and cherries. And
she was only willing to eat the cherries, although she really
wanted to have watermelon. So we ordered some
watermelon, and I took the cherries and
fed them to her until the watermelon arrived. And then several
of us took turn feeding the watermelon to her. And then she
(21:43):
wanted more cherries, and she wanted me to feed these to
her. And about this time, her sister encouraged me to
leave and for her sons to feed her. But I sensed that
she needed just a few more minutes, so I
requested five minutes of cherries. Her
family was afraid that as her pastor
(22:04):
and she had told me that she was going to pay some donations
into a parking lot fee, and they were afraid I was going to
get her to change her will or something, which was the last thing I was
ever thinking. It was very transactional from the perspective of
her family and a little hustle. But they did
leave when I said, I'd like five minutes of cherries, and she and I
(22:26):
laughed about five minutes of cherries. And what that meant. It's an
od way to measure cherries and an od way to measure time. So I
continued to cut them and feed them to her. And soon she began
reaching into the bowl and taking them in her fingers and ripping juice
up the front of her nightgown and way up to her mouth and
then popping them in. And during those five minutes
(22:49):
of cherries, she and I talked for the last time. We
didn't talk about money for the parking lot, and that was totally
irrelevant. We talked about her life, and we talked about
her death and the deepest longings of her
heart. And sometimes in the past, I often
asked her that her deepest longings were that she would have
(23:10):
time to finish up her business or for the well being of her
family. But this night, it was a prayer, her deepest
longings of her heart. So she prayed. Thank you
for giving me everything I have ever needed or wanted. Thank
you, God. And I also prayed a prayer of thanksgiving, and we
held each other over that five minutes over a
(23:33):
bowl of cherries. And we both knew that we touched the edge of
eternity and all the restlessness and the transactionalness
and the linearness and the hostility of life
just rested, and it's like, I
will always remember when eternity rested on
a bowl of cherries. Wow. That's a medial
(23:55):
story, and it's the story of a limin.
And don't you feel like we are always.
I don't want to say positioned or led. Maybe a better word is we're led.
Or people are led to us, or we're led to people where we
can. Serve as time vendors.
We're opening up the liminal space for people. If
(24:18):
we really have ears to hear and eyes to see, that we can
be God's hands, we can be that person who
helps midwife. I like to always like the archetype of the midwife.
It's the same middle. Midwife. Medial. It's the
same kind of word, isn't it? Yes,
the middle. Right. So that's
(24:40):
a beautiful story when we're talking about archetypes, that there's
four archetypes, other kinds of women besides. Do you want to kind of name what
Tony Wolff talks about, the different archetypes of women and how this is different
from medial. Hey, just a little break in our episode to let you know that
those of you who were on the waitlist for the women's wisdom circle, that
registration is now live. So this is a six month sacred circle
(25:02):
for women. Way showers. We are going to begin our journey on
spring Equinox March 19. We will end our journey on autumnal
equinox September of this year. Go to
standspeakshine.com wwc or you
can just go to my website, cherieburton.com and you'll see it
there on the homepage to find out more. So excited. I actually slashed the
(25:24):
price in less than half of what I was going to charge, and so it
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my new mindbody soul membership. So once again, that's cherieburton.com
or standspeakshine.com wwc.
It's going to be glorious alchemy and transformation. I hope you can join us.
(25:47):
Toni Wolff's archetypes, and she was very close to Carl
Jung, so they come from that era, and
she talk about a repressed woman. She didn't get
to do much. This is probably her biggest contribution,
though. She was brilliant. She said there were four
feminine structural forms. There was the mother,
(26:10):
and that's the one that nurtures whatever
is needy or weak or becoming. And we
know that one in our culture, but that's very common.
There's the lover. She called it a hatara,
which comes from the greek word for a very high class
whore who really took care of these
(26:31):
men. And it was not the way we use whore, but I
like to use the word lover, the one whose energy
is devoted to a man. Third one is the
Amazon, which is highly independent, very
goal oriented, linear. I tend to think of it as extroverted,
but it's probably not always extroverted, but kind of out
(26:54):
in the world and moving ahead and
linear. And then the fourth one is the medial, and the
medial and the Amazon are both more individual. They
relate to people, but their archetype is more
individual, the mother and the lover. It's in relationship
to someone else, right? Which
(27:17):
I don't know. As I was listening to you, I'm like, I think I might
be all of those. I think we all
have aspects of those, right? We all have aspects of all the.
Archetypes, but I think Tony Wolff and. I have a slightly
different understanding of the development, but my sense. I love
the words worth poem about trailing clouds
(27:39):
of glory. The child comes trailing clouds of glory. It's like coming into
this world with all this unseen that they know and we
don't. I think we come into this world with a
particular dominant structural form, and
the world doesn't understand those. The parents don't understand any of
it. I mean, I always thought I was the mother. I mean, I had three
(28:00):
younger brothers, and I was in charge a lot, and a pastor of a
church. There's mother church. My husband and I were kind of seen as
mother and father. You have children as well? You are a
mother? I have children. So the mother was
taking care of. That's what I learned from my mother. She was a
nurse taking care of the wounded. It wasn't until
(28:22):
I was in my 40s that I ever
even got a glimpse that I wasn't the mother, that
my predominant archetype was always medial.
I lived 40 years plus under an
archetype that was not my primary archetype, and I never
really got affirmation for the medial. I had to kind
(28:44):
of go around the edges to find where to use that.
Tony Wolff says that you use your first one and then you bring
in a second one and then a third one. I think
that's really culturally conditioned. There are probably
some children who know their medial from the beginning. They're just
so different. I didn't know that. I just knew I was different.
(29:07):
But the culture can honor
tomboys and mothers and flirting
teenagers. The culture honors all that. It just doesn't
have a place for the medial. So if somebody is feeling like,
hey, I feel like I might be medial, I feel like I want to
claim. That or explore that. I know your book goes into that.
(29:30):
A little bit, but just off the. Top of your head, what would you say
to that person who was feeling. Called there to explore
that? Read my book? Yeah. Or is there a
practice, is there a specific way that you cultivate that? I
mean, aside from reading, which, of course, we'll have a link to your book and
where people could find that, but what has been a way for you to really
step into that and. Own that and cultivate that? I
(29:53):
think having the name is important, and
then I have found that there are these
transcendent moments that I can offer to myself
by allowing myself to be in a place
of transcendence, whether it's on a retreat, whether it's by
the ocean or on a mountaintop.
(30:16):
Whether. It'S reading something that's deep, whether it's
in a relationship, like a spiritual direction relationship.
Although I don't think all spiritual directors are medial people,
they probably have some sense of that. I find nature
to be so powerful, but quietness, to
be still and to listen deeply. Meditation.
(30:38):
I do walking meditations. I pray while I
walk. I like to walk alone. So that I can pray, and I
allow those prayers not to be words from me to God,
but I allow them to be whatever comes
to follow it and to move with it. And that becomes a
prayer. Yeah. I once heard someone say
(31:00):
that for. People who feel a strong devotional
pull to the divine, and however they define that, that their whole lives are a
prayer. And I even heard a spiritual teacher say that our brains
are actually wired to pray. They're wired to speak to the other
realm, and it's kind of this subconscious sort of practice, but
it's like, who am I really talking to? Am I talking to myself?
(31:23):
We are wired to have this inner conversation or this inner
dialogue and to ask and to long for and to. Connect,
and that's the media within each of us.
I think everybody has all four of those archetypes and
that we tap into the medial. I think some people have more of
a dominant medial, but I think what you're talking about is,
(31:46):
yeah, all of our brains are wired that
way. Yeah. And we're all spiritual beings before we are
physical beings, and I think we're just trying to figure out these bodies and
what's going on here. I know you
teach a little bit about there are some dangers that are
associated with being a medial. What would you say are the risk factors
(32:07):
there? Well, I think the
quality of mediality that can cause the greatest
wounding and danger is that we are very porous.
We take in everything, whether it's another
person's feelings or the world. I mean,
this is a devastating time right now, as we're talking with
(32:30):
war in Gaza. We are so porous that
unless we have solid boundaries, we can
take in too much, and then we can be overwhelmed,
or we can take in that which is evil.
And unless the boundaries are solid, we can be so
empathic that we can get led astray
(32:52):
into something that is not good, and we
need to be. Again, boundaries are so important
for medial people. It's been a lifelong process for me
to establish boundaries because I can feel the intent of
people. This is my little story of being a girl. I could
feel people's intentions when I was a very little
(33:15):
girl, and I didn't realize that that's what I was doing. I
could discern whether they had ill. Intent,
neutral intent, or good intent, and
it's just something that I came with. And
so in some ways, it served me really well. I feel
like when we're talking about being open and
(33:37):
porous and empathic, have you
ever heard of the term highly sensitive people? Hsps yes,
I'm assuming a lot of. That is very medial as well, but it's just being,
like, highly, highly attuned to what's going on in the subtle
realms, in what is felt. Could call it
vibration or frequency, too. But you make the
(33:58):
distinction between being vivid and being subtle when it
comes to the medial. Do you want to explore that just a little bit? I
think many of us are subtle medial. Those are my words, not
Tony Wolff's. But the subtle medial is one. What
you're describing, who has this sense of
attunement in the world to people,
(34:22):
to that which is unspoken, she's to
deeper realities, and she just
knows and doesn't know how she knows, because it's
not a rational knowing, but it's a very subtle
knowing and attunement. The vivid medial
are the women who experience. I could also
(34:44):
call them Claire medial because the word Claire, like
clairvoyance, clairaudience, Claire sentience.
There's even a Claire Gustians, which is clear tasting. Oh,
I think I might have that. I
had never heard about that one. But I haven't either. But a couple
of the women I interviewed were very vivid and clear medial,
(35:06):
and they're the ones who can find a body.
There's a plane crash, and the police can't find the plane. They
can get into a realm. They can find the plane
and whether their bodies in it. One of them had that experience,
and some of those. One of them had the experience
of crossing life and death and boundaries and
(35:28):
had regular conversations with angels. She
sat with me, and she said, you have an angel. Her name is Mabel. I
sometimes talk to Mabel. This is not a realm. I don't
have that clear clairvoyant,
but. More of this on the subtle spectrum. Subtle. And I think
most of us are. Of the five of us whose stories I wrote,
(35:51):
three were subtle, and two had more of the clear.
And I think the clear are even more hidden
because they freak people out. People don't trust
them. And that is one of the dangers. There's a skepticism in our
culture with. People who have very clear gifts.
(36:11):
It bumps up against that linearity and that
logical that we upheld in our culture as, like, the norm or
the right way. Yeah, well, even with the subtle gifts, I mean,
I always felt sort of stupid when I was a kid
because I wasn't, but they didn't understand my way
of thinking. I just had a different way of being.
(36:35):
You asked about the dangerous system. One other that I think is one of the
biggest is that people can get lost when you
move into a very deep place,
a trance or a sense of communion with the
divine, one can get lost there.
So the limin to come back, I mean, that's, we're on the other side
(36:58):
of the spiritual limin there. It's very hard
to come back. I came back after a retreat, and
coming back on the highway was like, oh, my goodness. And then I
came back to a dinner or something, and it's like I
just leave. And I came home in tears. I couldn't get
back. I think what you're saying is it's
(37:20):
really easy to dissociate because you feel that pull
to the transcendental and you have that experience, then you have to come home
and get grounded. I feel like being
grounded is probably the most important spiritual
practice. Absolutely. Because you're still connected
to the unseen and you're still receiving, but
(37:42):
you're also here now, present. And
that's an art, I think, and. We move back and forth.
I'm thinking of Jack Cornfield's book after the ecstasy, the
laundry. I think that's kind of
what we feel. Welcome to WomanHood. Yeah, right. I
wanted to read this other part by jungian analyst that you
(38:04):
quoted in your book. Jungian analyst Marianne Matoon about. She
calls medial woman expresses, quote, vague and
embryonic possibilities not acceptable to the
dominant culture. That is, these women are
sensitive to. Currents of thoughts and feelings not
perceived by most people, but which become apparent in the
(38:26):
future because these contents are still unconscious to most
people. They often appear to be dark, negative, and
dangerous. And I loved
reading that, and I'll tell you why.
And this is why I love your. Book, stepping out of the shadows, because I've
been doing a lot of shadow work in recent years,
(38:47):
and a lot of what I was feeling in my body was the dissonance
of what wasn't right in the system and culture that I was immersed in and
born into. So I felt a
pull which to. Lift the lid to
look underneath the surface, to shine a little flashlight
into this little dark corner that no one was talking about. Lots of
(39:10):
dark corners, actually. And when
she said this part about, because these contents are
still unconscious to most people, they often appear to be dark, negative, and
dangerous. And I was getting just this admonition.
Well, stay in the light, stay on the
path, stay safe. And that's
(39:31):
not where my soul was calling me. My soul was calling me into
those shadow realms to look at it and see it and love it and face.
It, but not to keep turning away from it. Because I could feel in
my body. That those shadows were creating a
lot. Of patterns of behavior in people that.
Were not healthy, and that I
(39:53):
needed to sit with it and feel it. And notice it and observe
it. And then it has become part of my path to sort of bring
messaging. To it, to give voice to it, to really
bring it to the table for discussion.
Sounds like it's part of your call. And medial people,
one of our values is that we are one of
(40:16):
our calls is that we have to bring it forward. We can't just get lost
there. We have to bring it forward. The picture on
the COVID of my book is of Persephone. Isn't
she sweet? That's Persephone. And
I hope people know that story, because she is
abducted into the underworld. So she spends a lot of
(40:39):
time in the shadows. It's her mother who's just beside
herself, Demeter. But then she comes back up,
but because she's eaten two or three pomegranate
seeds, she has to go back for three months every year. So
we move, even Persephone moves back and
forth, but we have to be able, if we're medial, to be
(41:01):
able to step out of the shadows. In the
greek mythology, it's a story of the seasons, but I think it's
a story of the psyche. The shadows are
always going to be there, and we need to not be afraid of moving
back into the shadows. And we get to know what they're like,
but we have to come out and tell what we've known
(41:23):
there. And that's what you're. That reminds me
also of the myth. Of Anana, the goddess Anana, the
sumerian. Goddess who went to the underworld and felt the call to the
underworld. And as soon as I heard that story, like, five years ago, I was
like, yep, that's exactly what's happening. To know I
can no longer not go to the underworld. It's
(41:45):
just such a strong pull to go through
the death rebirth cycle. And of course,
you talk about limin being death, and it reminds me of
the death rebirth cycle, that we will have these mini deaths
or all these, I guess, series of awakenings throughout our
life, that if we're not open,
(42:07):
if we're not in base of openness and receiving and
noticing, then we'll just think bad things are happening to
us. We won't have that perspective. And that's
why myths and archetypes are so powerful, because they give us that.
Visual and that landing and inquiry into what might be happening
for us. And I think people are terrified of
(42:29):
the dark, of the depth of the underworld. I know
my mother was always afraid when I was a child or in college
even, I wanted to go to Mississippi and
register voters. I did go in the spring of 64, but I
wanted to go back and register voters. My parents
refused. People were killed then.
(42:51):
But I think my parents were afraid
that where I felt my call was too
dangerous and I would be destroyed. And they were probably
wise in restraining me until I could find
the way that I uniquely was called, which wasn't perhaps
registering voters in 1964.
(43:13):
But I do feel like I've been through dangerous times,
and I've come through depression is one of the things
medial women experience. Yeah, I loved reading that in
your book, and that's where I kind of want to wrap as we move
through, because for me, I was
diagnosed with something called dysthymia when I was 19. And by the time
(43:36):
I. No, 21 is when I got diagnosed, by the time I was
21, actually preparing to serve a mission for my church. And so I had
to go through. All these things to get ready.
And the psychiatrist in San Francisco, he's. Like,
you've been dysthymic your entire life, your entire
childhood. And that was just my baseline because. I was trying to
(43:58):
stabilize my was, you know, trying to adjust, and
it just created kind of this inner chronic numbness, or
not necessarily dissociation, but it. Was just a very
mild, chronic, low grade depression. It wasn't
just like high highs and low lows. I wasn't in bed for weeks. It wasn't
a traditional clinical depression. And I can tell you that
(44:20):
that's almost the entire reason that I went into the field of psychology
to get my degree. And then most of my career has been on
understanding the dynamic nature of emotions and how we hold them in our
bodies. And that it's just really interesting that that was one of the
markers of a medial, because I always thought there was something wrong
with me, that I. Was in that chronic, sort of low.
(44:41):
Grade depression space that maybe you can enlighten some of our listeners.
For some, it might be anxiety or something along this. They're on the same
spectrum, really. But, yeah, why don't you explore that with us just a little
bit? Well, I went through profound depression.
When. I didn't really know that I was medial,
(45:02):
and I felt like I couldn't escape. It was like the church
was falling apart from, there's nothing wrong with the church. It was just I
was growing in a new direction. We didn't have money to send me
to school. I didn't know how it was going to be able to
develop this new part that was just burst forth.
This is like in your 40s. Is this the time period you're talking about? My
(45:24):
40s? My psyche took over. My dreams took
over, and I went into analysis for a long time.
And the depression, I think, was the voice of my
psyche saying, there is something more here
that you have to work on or you
will be sick. And I do think our psyches do that
(45:46):
to us, and our dreams tell us, even the nightmares tell
us important things. I think media women feel
like your comment, there's something wrong with me. I've gotten
comments, I've gotten letters from people who say, I always thought there
was something wrong with me. And it's such a relief to
know maybe there's not. Our culture so
(46:08):
doesn't understand this and we pathologize it
because we can't hold it as a
psychological, spiritual way of being in the world.
Yeah, I'm hopeful that there are a lot of
people now coming out and talking about embracing
your individuality and understanding how you're built and, like human design and
(46:30):
gene keys and astrology, and there's just a lot of people. They're just like, this
is who I am. This is how I'm built. This is how I came into
the world. This is the way I incarnated. This is my
build. This is my makeup. So I am hopeful
that there are. Less people that are underground and
that there are more people coming out of the shadows and work like you're doing,
(46:50):
I think, is really affirming and really.
Timely because I don't know if it'll. Happen in our
lifetime, but I think we're going to start to see some. Major
critical mass shifts in the way. People move in
the world and what. We value as the culture and how.
We allow people to manifest their inherent gifts. But I would love for
(47:12):
you, Bobby, to just maybe close this out with a reading.
I know you have a prayer that you love to
express. And however, just
for those listeners who may not consider themselves religious or whatever,
really isn't religious, it's just a way of communicating with the
divine and the all. And so I would love for
(47:34):
you. To round us out with that. I
need to say before I do that, that the word prayer and the word
dream, for me, I am always getting them mixed up.
So if I write a prayer for a
church service or something, I may say to my husband, I just finished writing a
dream. Oh, I love that in the morning. And
(47:56):
I said, I had the most incredible prayer last night.
And I think it's because they both come from that same
deep, unconscious place. Yeah. This is my
prayer for women at the limin. It's the end of my book.
Deep mystery, divine spirit, sacred,
(48:17):
other, source of all ground of being. God,
you, beyond name, concept, or words,
you to which medial women are connected, we
lift this prayer. May our limin be the
edge of your hand. Hold us in your open
palm, not too tightly, that we might be
(48:40):
crushed, not too lightly, that we might
slip off. May we find courage in the
darkness that we travel discernment in what
is ours to know and carry wisdom, to
leave what is not ours behind.
Balance between the 1ft on this side
(49:01):
and the 1ft on the other.
May our culture grow from encasement to the
old ways, through the chaos of disruption
into new forms that are permeable enough
to embrace ancient wisdom as well as new
ways of being. May there be room
(49:24):
for our gifts among the gifts of those many
others, so very different, all of which
are needed so that we can live into the
fullness of our beings, so that we can be
heard amidst clatter and clutter.
May we find respect among other women,
(49:47):
those who carry swords, those who carry
babies, those who carry hearts.
As we carry insights and hidden truths.
May we acknowledge our wounds. May they
not create of us victims. May we claim
our gifts, may they not create in us
(50:09):
arrogance. We are becoming ever more
the self we have been from birth.
Use us in service to the greater whole.
May our being make a difference in creation.
So may it be. So. May it be. Thank you
so much, Bobby. That was just beautiful. I wanted to just
(50:33):
remind the listeners to grab your book, stepping out of the shadows, naming
and claiming the medial woman today. And it did
win a nautilus book award, which I can totally see.
Very well researched and written and put together. And of course,
your soul is all over through this book as I've gotten to know you. So
thank you so much for your offering to this world and for being. With
(50:56):
our listeners today. Thank you, Sherry, for having me, for inviting
me. It's been a real privilege, and I hope this book
will just find the people who need it. I trust
that. And people can find. I do, too. And people can find your
book on
robertabcorson.com. So that's
robertabcorson.com.
(51:19):
Thank you again. Thank you, cherie. Hey,
cherie. Here. Have you gotten my free whole body healing kit mini
course? All you have to do is ask to join our private Facebook group
Soul rose community, and we'll send it right to your inbox and I want you
to know that I am so grateful for every single one of you who listens
to these episodes. You can follow me on Instagram at Cherie
(51:41):
Burton to deepen into the discussion that you heard today. And I would
be ever so grateful if you would leave this podcast a positive review
on Apple Podcasts. This allows many more people to find
these kinds of healing and empowerment gems that we bring forward in our discussions.
And if you want to see our faces, check out my soul row show
YouTube channel. Have a glorious week and we'll talk to you next time on the
(52:03):
Soul Row show. It.
Do you know what a medial woman is? I didn't until
I found Dr. Roberta Corson's book, and since then, my mind has
been totally blown and I have felt totally validated on multiple levels. A medial
woman is one who is a connecting link between seen and unseen
realms. She bridges opposites, and she helps restore lost
wisdom to those who have forgotten. Now, there are shadow aspects as well, and there
(00:25):
are medial men as well as medial women. Dr. Roberta Corson is a
retired clinical depth psychologist and United Methodist clergy. She
holds a BA in English literature from Lawrence University, a master of
divinity from Pacific School of Religion, and a PhD from Pacifica Graduate
Institute, one of my favorite institutions. And with her depth psychology, she has
really brought into the face of our discussion archetypes one of my favorite things to
(00:46):
talk about and how this medial woman archetype probably
describes a lot of us who feel like we're bridge people. We're kind of holding
space and paradox and kind of having a foot in each world, the unseen and
the scene unaware. And Roberta's book is called Stepping out of the
shadows, naming and claiming the medial woman. Today
also, it is not too late to join the women's wisdom circle. We actually
(01:08):
launch March 19, the first day of spring. So this
is a time of rebirth. This is a time of coming into the new,
embracing a lot of actually what we're talking about on this episode, which is about
sitting in a shadow and coming into the light. Obviously, the name of her book,
stepping out of the Shadows. So part of claiming your space as a walker between
worlds is embracing that shadow. So anyway, yes, our wisdom circle will definitely
(01:28):
embrace that as well as help you move confidently into your soul
path. So you can find more information on my website,
cherieburton.com or
standspeakshine.com. Forward slash
wwc.
Roberta, also known as Bobby. Welcome to the
podcast. Grateful to have you. Hi, Cherie. I'm so glad to be
(01:51):
here. Well, we have a mutual friend, Dr. Jennifer
Selig, who I know she was instrumental in getting your book
published. She's been a great mentor for me. I got to meet her at
Pacifica and learn from her, and she always sends me amazing people.
So when she connected us, I was like, oh, well, that's like
an interesting title for a book. Give me the book. For those of you
(02:14):
looking on YouTube, I'm holding it up right here. It's
called stepping out of the shadows, naming and claiming the
medial woman today. So let's start
before we get into what a medial woman is, which was I want to just
tell everyone. Super affirming for me, super validating.
But let's talk about, just as a preface, because I know you teach about liminal
(02:36):
space, and it's kind of been a buzzword that you hear
in various places in the spiritual realm or in the consciousness
realm, in the archetypal realm. So maybe just share with us your
definition of what liminal space is. It's really
a simple definition, but it's so key to
medial women, and to make a distinction
(02:58):
between a couple of distinctions about it, the limin. A
limin is simply a doorway, a passageway,
a gate. It's so simple. That's what it is.
When you say limin, I'm thinking of a lemon fruit. But you're
L-I-M-I-N. I
(03:19):
think it's M-I-N, Limin. Not very good with spelling. So limin
is the noun. Liminal is the description
of that. Right. It means
a doorway or a passageway. And I like to think about
all the limins that we cross every day. I mean, when we bring
groceries home, we get out of the car, that's the
(03:41):
limin. We bring them into the house, that's a limin.
We open the refrigerator door, the groceries go through a limin.
The limin is the passageway from one thing to the
other. We all know limins that we live with
passageways. We have passageways in our
lives. Graduations, weddings. Those are limins.
(04:02):
They are a passageway, a door from one thing to the other. So
we all know that. But there are two kinds of limins that I think
distinguish everyday liminal space from the
space that medial women experience.
The experience that most of us have is material
women. The experience of medial women
(04:25):
is standing at the passageway between what is
known and what is not known. And that can be
the unconscious and the conscious. It can be the material
and the spiritual. And my hunch is there are probably limins
in the spiritual realm that we know nothing about. But, I mean, there may be
other limins that we don't know about, but media women are
(04:47):
the ones who stand with 1ft
on each side of that limin, and they cross
back and forth. And back and forth from the unknown to
the known. Is that the two. Okay. Or the spiritual to
the material or the unconscious to the conscious?
And all of us have a little medial in us and can do
(05:10):
that. But for the medial woman, that is
probably the biggest definition that we
are constantly moving back and forth between
these realms, gaining information, having
insights, using our intuition, and bringing it
back from the unknown into the known. Does that make sense?
(05:32):
Absolutely. Yeah. As I was reading,
I was struck with. Because I think I've shared with when you and
I talked before, being in the middle path has always really called
to me, and it shows up a lot. Like, I'm
the middle sister. Between two sisters. The
number two always comes through to me. I was born the second,
(05:56):
but being in the middle, being a middle child, trying
to be in the middle and stay in the middle has been a challenge
because I was always taught to choose a side or to go, I
guess you could say, more linear or more logic. But I felt like I wanted
to play in this mystical space, and you
could call it the unknown, but it was always like this fight, like, no, this
(06:17):
is the known. This is what you will do. This is the path. That's right.
I always felt something calling me into that,
into that liminal medial space of just, hey, why do I
have to choose a camp? Why can't I just play?
It felt like. Just like, play. Yeah, play. But also holding
(06:37):
tension. Oh, yes. Well, the word
medial comes from
mediumistic, or meaning middle. I mean,
the word itself means middle. So we are always in the
middle. And you talk about that linear sense of, you have to choose a
side and go with the side. Medial people are
(06:59):
not linear. We're liminal, but we're not linear.
We have a whole different sense of time and space,
especially when we are connected to that kind of
unknown, mysterious, mystic kind of
space that there's nothing linear about that, which
can be a real problem for medial women, because people in our
(07:20):
culture want us to get on with it, go ahead, move
forward. And sometimes we need to embrace
and move down or through to something that
is not even seen in our culture.
Yeah. And I know that you've had a really fascinating
past and history yourself of coming into your
(07:42):
own place and owning that you are this medial woman.
Otherwise, why would you do a doctoral dissertation and get a degree in
archetypal. Right? I think jungian people,
like, the reason I nerd out on jungian psychology and.
Spiritual psychology is because of that, because. It is
so not logical,
(08:05):
illogical, not illogical in the sense of negatives, but just
archetypes themselves, which I want to get into that. But first, yet maybe share with
our listeners just a snippet of your childhood and how
this path found you, because you've always been kind of religious
and spiritual, and then finding your place on the map has been a bit
of. A beautiful life story and life path for you. When I
(08:27):
was studying for my psychology licensing degree, it was
very linear, evidence based, linear,
scientific, and I was working in analysis then. And I
said, I'm just never going to pass this. I did. But my analyst
said, you're not a duck. Meaning?
Referring to the ugly duckling story, that I wasn't a duck, I was a
(08:49):
swan. And the ducks were the ones who were really good at taking
this test. And I did it differently. I was
not a duck. When I grew up, I really felt like I
was the ugly duckling in my family because it was a medical
family. My dad and my mom were medical people. I
had scientifically based brothers and family
(09:11):
friends, and it was all very scientific. And
when I was three, I wanted to go to church, and so they dropped
me off at Sunday school. You were three. And of
all the women I interviewed, all of us wanted to go
to church when we were very little, and all of us went on our
own. Only one went with her family. There were
(09:33):
five of us in my interview. So when I was very little, and this
is true, I think with the women I interviewed, there's something that's
innately spiritual, that's longing for
that. I always longed for that. When I had a
choice of books to read for book reviews in middle school or a
choice of reading the book that I was reading for my Sunday school class
(09:55):
or going to a stupid movie, I chose the book
I always wanted to use. The books I would choose in
junior high were Peter Marshall, the prayers of Peter
Marshall, Bernadette, the Song of Bernadette, which was just on
my family shelf. I would read anything drawn to
understanding what spirituality is and how. When I was
(10:17):
little, yeah, I was young, I read the robe when I was
in 6th grade, and we had to do a dialogue when I was
in 10th grade, and I chose to do my dialogue between Joan of
Arc and Billy Graham, and nobody
else was doing religious dialogues, but that was
important to me. And then in high school and college,
(10:40):
the service aspect of religion was really important to
me. And then I went into seminary, and I was
disappointed in that. It was more academic and linear
than it was spiritual. But the advanced theological studies
just. Felt black and white
were like, the data, the evidence. It was
(11:02):
dry, and I wanted more of the spiritual, so I hung
out with Meister Eckhart, the mystics, and some of those
people. So that was kind of my
background. I did not know anything about the word medial. I
think most media women don't. I don't think you had ever heard. Of it, had
you? No. In fact, I was like, medial sounds like a
(11:24):
medium middle. I kind of had an instant knowing. That it
was going to be resonant with me. Interesting,
the word. But, yeah, I know that you were. A student
of another person who brought that into your space, and then you. Just hooked into
it. Irene Claremont de Castileo, in her book, knowing
woman, years ago, I read that for a class, and then
(11:47):
I didn't keep in that program, so I didn't really go back to it. But
it was like this was my. I knew
sometimes, you know, instantly. And ten years later,
I was in graduate school for my doctoral work,
and somebody really bashed Tony Wolff,
who was the one who named this archetype. And
(12:10):
I thought, I can't stand that. I need to learn more, and
I need to reclaim Tony Wolff's work, which is
what I did. So
that's where I learned. I was probably in my 40s
when I learned the word. It was not for ten
or 15 years later that I really worked with it.
(12:32):
So what was it about it that. Really spoke to you personally? I
mean, I know you read this. Knowing woman, so it just sort
of grabbed you. And then decade later, you found
yourself feeling some passion and some conviction around, I've got
to defend this. I've got to find what this is. And parse it out
a little bit. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that was
(12:53):
calling. You to do that? The reason I ask you is because I have women
who have really uncommon, or so they
think, interests or a
theme or a topic that's not very explored
yet, and they feel a little bit like a renegade or a gad about
just trying to put it together and make it more palatable, whether
(13:15):
it's something that's a resurgence of a topic that no one's really gone
into depth with, or if it's something new that they've heard about. So that's
the reason I'm asking you, because they probably have listeners who have. A
specialized focus, that they're just like. Why is no one talking about this?
Why isn't this a thing? And that's the call for them. That's the
call for all of us. When I am a media woman, I read about this
(13:37):
ten years ago, and this man was bashing it.
And it's like, no, I need to reclaim this. I need to
bring it forward so that others can hear the
word, that. It might be inexplicable why that might. Be
coming through or coming up for them. But like you said, it's calling them. It's
part of their path. I was called by
(14:00):
name, by Irene Claremont de Castileo. She used the
word, and I knew it was my name, and then I wanted,
in my book, especially, to invite people to
hear that name and see if it called to them, because
most people haven't heard it, and I think it's very
powerful for people who are medial. Is it okay if I
(14:22):
read a part of your book here that just. Really struck me when we're talking,
when. I was trying to like, okay, I can't wait to dive in and see
why this word speaks to me already and know to get some backup
on why. And I'm just going to read this part. You were quoting from the
knowing woman. So that author, Irene Claremont de Castello.
She said, to mediate is to be
(14:43):
a connecting link between two things, holding. Out a
hand to each, as it were, helping them to come to
terms. A medial woman, and this is not the end quote, like,
a medial woman stands with a foot in each
world. And bridges the opposite, for she
restores. Lost worlds to those who have forgotten
(15:05):
these. For the medial 1ft stands in the
visible, tangible world, and the other foot. In the unseen,
collective, unconscious realm. I thought that was a
really beautiful. First I was quoting Irene, and then. I
was quoting you, but I just love that
visual of walking between worlds. Or, like, having
(15:28):
1ft in the unseen and intangible and then a foot in the known.
Let me ask you this. Before we dive a little deeper into the medial women,
why do you think. Okay, let me back up
to even. Not why do you think, but do. You feel like there's a
lot more medial women now than
there were in times past? And if so, why do you think that is? My
(15:50):
hunch is that there have always been medial
women. There were more roles in times past
for medial women. They were shamans and civils and
seers, and we have fewer roles now. So my
sense is that medial women have gone underground, which
is why I called it stepping out of the shadows that
(16:12):
they've gone underground. And I think that there are
more medial women than we even have a clue.
Everybody has some mediality in them, and men, too.
I'm married to a medial man. This just happened to come from a
study that was on women almost a decade, I mean, a century
ago, but I think that we need to be
(16:34):
called forth. The other thing with medial women
is that there's so many wounds, and we've
all probably had experiences where we weren't understood, and we
were put down or banished in some way.
Rather, most of us, we're all highly
intuitive. Many of us are introverts, and when the
(16:56):
world wounds us, we back into. We
back. Go back. So my book is
hoping to name some of the wounds and to call people
forward. One of the wounds I had was when I was serving in
church, I had a district superintendent who came to see me,
and he was new and asked me what kind of ministry I
(17:17):
loved and wanted to do. And I said, oh, all the spiritual work,
the pastoral work, prayers, the prayer groups, the
classes. And he said, oh, well, that's just the whipped
cream. What do you really want to do? He was an administrator
and an extrovert. I mean, it's like, wow. To talk
about the spiritual life of. People making it fluffy, that. That's
(17:40):
the fluffy whipped cream. I
was so offended, and that would be one
reason why I feel like this book needs to
come forward. Everybody's had something like
that. Oh, yes. In my religion of origin, which is
Mormonism, I think I may have even expressed this to you. And to this day,
(18:02):
women don't really have authority. Being born a woman means
that you are, of necessity to be presided over by a
priesthood male, both in your home and at church and at activities and
other things. And you talked about when you were a little
girl that you wanted to go to church and that even though your family wasn't
going. My family was very religious, and so we went, and I really
(18:25):
enjoyed it. It wasn't until I recognized, and I did recognize
quite early, that women didn't really have power. And
I don't mean power in the sense of power over, I mean power
with which it feels medial to me. We're all together.
But I'm curious how that
(18:45):
came for you, because you were in ministry and. You did have
spiritual leadership in a. Religious capacity,
and that isn't very common. With a lot of
people that I. Meet or women that I meet. I can count on one hand
how many women ministers I've actually talked to in my life. I've
talked to a lot of people. But your husband was with you in the
(19:07):
ministry, and is that something that you're still doing? And you mentioned
that you were confronted with the whipped cream thing by a superintendent
or whatever, but was there any. Pushback for you in terms of
being. In that visibility and having that? You could call
it the robes or the cloak of authority or
power, which I think is beautiful, that you were seasoned and matured
(19:29):
into that? Is that something you're still doing? We're retired,
but we have a church that we attend. It's a japanese
heritage church. That's lovely. And
my husband's been working with food distribution, and I've been
doing pastoral care. I just finished a group on holding space
for grief, and those are the places I'm
(19:52):
called spiritual care, being with people who were
dying. Death is the limin. Life and
death. It's standing between where we are and what
we don't know. And medial women. I mean, there are some media
women who are clairvoyant and have the ability to
move back and forth between those realms. One of them is in
(20:14):
my book. I interviewed her, and she's very interesting. That's
not my gift, but I am gifted at
standing with people at their last breath, and
it's an incredibly holy moment. And time
and space opens up. There's a whole dimension to that when someone
is dying, and that's where I'm called. And
(20:36):
I still can do that in this new church, even in
retirement. That's beautiful. Yeah. We never did
get to talk about a really powerful story in your book about the
cherries. Do we want to bring that in as we're coming back into liminal space?
And how you happened upon a woman who shared this with you? I think it
was really beautiful. Well, this is my story from the church where I
(20:58):
was serving in ministry. But the woman that you were working with, Spark.
She was a member of our church, Victoria. And I
was with her family at her bedside as she was dying in
a skilled nursing facility. And she wasn't feeling very
well, but I could tell her spirit was quite alive. And her dinner
tray arrived, and there was a sandwich and a
(21:20):
salad and milk and cherries. And
she was only willing to eat the cherries, although she really
wanted to have watermelon. So we ordered some
watermelon, and I took the cherries and
fed them to her until the watermelon arrived. And then several
of us took turn feeding the watermelon to her. And then she
(21:43):
wanted more cherries, and she wanted me to feed these to
her. And about this time, her sister encouraged me to
leave and for her sons to feed her. But I sensed that
she needed just a few more minutes, so I
requested five minutes of cherries. Her
family was afraid that as her pastor
(22:04):
and she had told me that she was going to pay some donations
into a parking lot fee, and they were afraid I was going to
get her to change her will or something, which was the last thing I was
ever thinking. It was very transactional from the perspective of
her family and a little hustle. But they did
leave when I said, I'd like five minutes of cherries, and she and I
(22:26):
laughed about five minutes of cherries. And what that meant. It's an
od way to measure cherries and an od way to measure time. So I
continued to cut them and feed them to her. And soon she began
reaching into the bowl and taking them in her fingers and ripping juice
up the front of her nightgown and way up to her mouth and
then popping them in. And during those five minutes
(22:49):
of cherries, she and I talked for the last time. We
didn't talk about money for the parking lot, and that was totally
irrelevant. We talked about her life, and we talked about
her death and the deepest longings of her
heart. And sometimes in the past, I often
asked her that her deepest longings were that she would have
(23:10):
time to finish up her business or for the well being of her
family. But this night, it was a prayer, her deepest
longings of her heart. So she prayed. Thank you
for giving me everything I have ever needed or wanted. Thank
you, God. And I also prayed a prayer of thanksgiving, and we
held each other over that five minutes over a
(23:33):
bowl of cherries. And we both knew that we touched the edge of
eternity and all the restlessness and the transactionalness
and the linearness and the hostility of life
just rested, and it's like, I
will always remember when eternity rested on
a bowl of cherries. Wow. That's a medial
(23:55):
story, and it's the story of a limin.
And don't you feel like we are always.
I don't want to say positioned or led. Maybe a better word is we're led.
Or people are led to us, or we're led to people where we
can. Serve as time vendors.
We're opening up the liminal space for people. If
(24:18):
we really have ears to hear and eyes to see, that we can
be God's hands, we can be that person who
helps midwife. I like to always like the archetype of the midwife.
It's the same middle. Midwife. Medial. It's the
same kind of word, isn't it? Yes,
the middle. Right. So that's
(24:40):
a beautiful story when we're talking about archetypes, that there's
four archetypes, other kinds of women besides. Do you want to kind of name what
Tony Wolff talks about, the different archetypes of women and how this is different
from medial. Hey, just a little break in our episode to let you know that
those of you who were on the waitlist for the women's wisdom circle, that
registration is now live. So this is a six month sacred circle
(25:02):
for women. Way showers. We are going to begin our journey on
spring Equinox March 19. We will end our journey on autumnal
equinox September of this year. Go to
standspeakshine.com wwc or you
can just go to my website, cherieburton.com and you'll see it
there on the homepage to find out more. So excited. I actually slashed the
(25:24):
price in less than half of what I was going to charge, and so it
will include 20 minutes clarity call with me as well as some fun soul
declaration cards that I'll ship to you. You will also get six months free of
my new mindbody soul membership. So once again, that's cherieburton.com
or standspeakshine.com wwc.
It's going to be glorious alchemy and transformation. I hope you can join us.
(25:47):
Toni Wolff's archetypes, and she was very close to Carl
Jung, so they come from that era, and
she talk about a repressed woman. She didn't get
to do much. This is probably her biggest contribution,
though. She was brilliant. She said there were four
feminine structural forms. There was the mother,
(26:10):
and that's the one that nurtures whatever
is needy or weak or becoming. And we
know that one in our culture, but that's very common.
There's the lover. She called it a hatara,
which comes from the greek word for a very high class
whore who really took care of these
(26:31):
men. And it was not the way we use whore, but I
like to use the word lover, the one whose energy
is devoted to a man. Third one is the
Amazon, which is highly independent, very
goal oriented, linear. I tend to think of it as extroverted,
but it's probably not always extroverted, but kind of out
(26:54):
in the world and moving ahead and
linear. And then the fourth one is the medial, and the
medial and the Amazon are both more individual. They
relate to people, but their archetype is more
individual, the mother and the lover. It's in relationship
to someone else, right? Which
(27:17):
I don't know. As I was listening to you, I'm like, I think I might
be all of those. I think we all
have aspects of those, right? We all have aspects of all the.
Archetypes, but I think Tony Wolff and. I have a slightly
different understanding of the development, but my sense. I love
the words worth poem about trailing clouds
(27:39):
of glory. The child comes trailing clouds of glory. It's like coming into
this world with all this unseen that they know and we
don't. I think we come into this world with a
particular dominant structural form, and
the world doesn't understand those. The parents don't understand any of
it. I mean, I always thought I was the mother. I mean, I had three
(28:00):
younger brothers, and I was in charge a lot, and a pastor of a
church. There's mother church. My husband and I were kind of seen as
mother and father. You have children as well? You are a
mother? I have children. So the mother was
taking care of. That's what I learned from my mother. She was a
nurse taking care of the wounded. It wasn't until
(28:22):
I was in my 40s that I ever
even got a glimpse that I wasn't the mother, that
my predominant archetype was always medial.
I lived 40 years plus under an
archetype that was not my primary archetype, and I never
really got affirmation for the medial. I had to kind
(28:44):
of go around the edges to find where to use that.
Tony Wolff says that you use your first one and then you bring
in a second one and then a third one. I think
that's really culturally conditioned. There are probably
some children who know their medial from the beginning. They're just
so different. I didn't know that. I just knew I was different.
(29:07):
But the culture can honor
tomboys and mothers and flirting
teenagers. The culture honors all that. It just doesn't
have a place for the medial. So if somebody is feeling like,
hey, I feel like I might be medial, I feel like I want to
claim. That or explore that. I know your book goes into that.
(29:30):
A little bit, but just off the. Top of your head, what would you say
to that person who was feeling. Called there to explore
that? Read my book? Yeah. Or is there a
practice, is there a specific way that you cultivate that? I
mean, aside from reading, which, of course, we'll have a link to your book and
where people could find that, but what has been a way for you to really
step into that and. Own that and cultivate that? I
(29:53):
think having the name is important, and
then I have found that there are these
transcendent moments that I can offer to myself
by allowing myself to be in a place
of transcendence, whether it's on a retreat, whether it's by
the ocean or on a mountaintop.
(30:16):
Whether. It'S reading something that's deep, whether it's
in a relationship, like a spiritual direction relationship.
Although I don't think all spiritual directors are medial people,
they probably have some sense of that. I find nature
to be so powerful, but quietness, to
be still and to listen deeply. Meditation.
(30:38):
I do walking meditations. I pray while I
walk. I like to walk alone. So that I can pray, and I
allow those prayers not to be words from me to God,
but I allow them to be whatever comes
to follow it and to move with it. And that becomes a
prayer. Yeah. I once heard someone say
(31:00):
that for. People who feel a strong devotional
pull to the divine, and however they define that, that their whole lives are a
prayer. And I even heard a spiritual teacher say that our brains
are actually wired to pray. They're wired to speak to the other
realm, and it's kind of this subconscious sort of practice, but
it's like, who am I really talking to? Am I talking to myself?
(31:23):
We are wired to have this inner conversation or this inner
dialogue and to ask and to long for and to. Connect,
and that's the media within each of us.
I think everybody has all four of those archetypes and
that we tap into the medial. I think some people have more of
a dominant medial, but I think what you're talking about is,
(31:46):
yeah, all of our brains are wired that
way. Yeah. And we're all spiritual beings before we are
physical beings, and I think we're just trying to figure out these bodies and
what's going on here. I know you
teach a little bit about there are some dangers that are
associated with being a medial. What would you say are the risk factors
(32:07):
there? Well, I think the
quality of mediality that can cause the greatest
wounding and danger is that we are very porous.
We take in everything, whether it's another
person's feelings or the world. I mean,
this is a devastating time right now, as we're talking with
(32:30):
war in Gaza. We are so porous that
unless we have solid boundaries, we can
take in too much, and then we can be overwhelmed,
or we can take in that which is evil.
And unless the boundaries are solid, we can be so
empathic that we can get led astray
(32:52):
into something that is not good, and we
need to be. Again, boundaries are so important
for medial people. It's been a lifelong process for me
to establish boundaries because I can feel the intent of
people. This is my little story of being a girl. I could
feel people's intentions when I was a very little
(33:15):
girl, and I didn't realize that that's what I was doing. I
could discern whether they had ill. Intent,
neutral intent, or good intent, and
it's just something that I came with. And
so in some ways, it served me really well. I feel
like when we're talking about being open and
(33:37):
porous and empathic, have you
ever heard of the term highly sensitive people? Hsps yes,
I'm assuming a lot of. That is very medial as well, but it's just being,
like, highly, highly attuned to what's going on in the subtle
realms, in what is felt. Could call it
vibration or frequency, too. But you make the
(33:58):
distinction between being vivid and being subtle when it
comes to the medial. Do you want to explore that just a little bit? I
think many of us are subtle medial. Those are my words, not
Tony Wolff's. But the subtle medial is one. What
you're describing, who has this sense of
attunement in the world to people,
(34:22):
to that which is unspoken, she's to
deeper realities, and she just
knows and doesn't know how she knows, because it's
not a rational knowing, but it's a very subtle
knowing and attunement. The vivid medial
are the women who experience. I could also
(34:44):
call them Claire medial because the word Claire, like
clairvoyance, clairaudience, Claire sentience.
There's even a Claire Gustians, which is clear tasting. Oh,
I think I might have that. I
had never heard about that one. But I haven't either. But a couple
of the women I interviewed were very vivid and clear medial,
(35:06):
and they're the ones who can find a body.
There's a plane crash, and the police can't find the plane. They
can get into a realm. They can find the plane
and whether their bodies in it. One of them had that experience,
and some of those. One of them had the experience
of crossing life and death and boundaries and
(35:28):
had regular conversations with angels. She
sat with me, and she said, you have an angel. Her name is Mabel. I
sometimes talk to Mabel. This is not a realm. I don't
have that clear clairvoyant,
but. More of this on the subtle spectrum. Subtle. And I think
most of us are. Of the five of us whose stories I wrote,
(35:51):
three were subtle, and two had more of the clear.
And I think the clear are even more hidden
because they freak people out. People don't trust
them. And that is one of the dangers. There's a skepticism in our
culture with. People who have very clear gifts.
(36:11):
It bumps up against that linearity and that
logical that we upheld in our culture as, like, the norm or
the right way. Yeah, well, even with the subtle gifts, I mean,
I always felt sort of stupid when I was a kid
because I wasn't, but they didn't understand my way
of thinking. I just had a different way of being.
(36:35):
You asked about the dangerous system. One other that I think is one of the
biggest is that people can get lost when you
move into a very deep place,
a trance or a sense of communion with the
divine, one can get lost there.
So the limin to come back, I mean, that's, we're on the other side
(36:58):
of the spiritual limin there. It's very hard
to come back. I came back after a retreat, and
coming back on the highway was like, oh, my goodness. And then I
came back to a dinner or something, and it's like I
just leave. And I came home in tears. I couldn't get
back. I think what you're saying is it's
(37:20):
really easy to dissociate because you feel that pull
to the transcendental and you have that experience, then you have to come home
and get grounded. I feel like being
grounded is probably the most important spiritual
practice. Absolutely. Because you're still connected
to the unseen and you're still receiving, but
(37:42):
you're also here now, present. And
that's an art, I think, and. We move back and forth.
I'm thinking of Jack Cornfield's book after the ecstasy, the
laundry. I think that's kind of
what we feel. Welcome to WomanHood. Yeah, right. I
wanted to read this other part by jungian analyst that you
(38:04):
quoted in your book. Jungian analyst Marianne Matoon about. She
calls medial woman expresses, quote, vague and
embryonic possibilities not acceptable to the
dominant culture. That is, these women are
sensitive to. Currents of thoughts and feelings not
perceived by most people, but which become apparent in the
(38:26):
future because these contents are still unconscious to most
people. They often appear to be dark, negative, and
dangerous. And I loved
reading that, and I'll tell you why.
And this is why I love your. Book, stepping out of the shadows, because I've
been doing a lot of shadow work in recent years,
(38:47):
and a lot of what I was feeling in my body was the dissonance
of what wasn't right in the system and culture that I was immersed in and
born into. So I felt a
pull which to. Lift the lid to
look underneath the surface, to shine a little flashlight
into this little dark corner that no one was talking about. Lots of
(39:10):
dark corners, actually. And when
she said this part about, because these contents are
still unconscious to most people, they often appear to be dark, negative, and
dangerous. And I was getting just this admonition.
Well, stay in the light, stay on the
path, stay safe. And that's
(39:31):
not where my soul was calling me. My soul was calling me into
those shadow realms to look at it and see it and love it and face.
It, but not to keep turning away from it. Because I could feel in
my body. That those shadows were creating a
lot. Of patterns of behavior in people that.
Were not healthy, and that I
(39:53):
needed to sit with it and feel it. And notice it and observe
it. And then it has become part of my path to sort of bring
messaging. To it, to give voice to it, to really
bring it to the table for discussion.
Sounds like it's part of your call. And medial people,
one of our values is that we are one of
(40:16):
our calls is that we have to bring it forward. We can't just get lost
there. We have to bring it forward. The picture on
the COVID of my book is of Persephone. Isn't
she sweet? That's Persephone. And
I hope people know that story, because she is
abducted into the underworld. So she spends a lot of
(40:39):
time in the shadows. It's her mother who's just beside
herself, Demeter. But then she comes back up,
but because she's eaten two or three pomegranate
seeds, she has to go back for three months every year. So
we move, even Persephone moves back and
forth, but we have to be able, if we're medial, to be
(41:01):
able to step out of the shadows. In the
greek mythology, it's a story of the seasons, but I think it's
a story of the psyche. The shadows are
always going to be there, and we need to not be afraid of moving
back into the shadows. And we get to know what they're like,
but we have to come out and tell what we've known
(41:23):
there. And that's what you're. That reminds me
also of the myth. Of Anana, the goddess Anana, the
sumerian. Goddess who went to the underworld and felt the call to the
underworld. And as soon as I heard that story, like, five years ago, I was
like, yep, that's exactly what's happening. To know I
can no longer not go to the underworld. It's
(41:45):
just such a strong pull to go through
the death rebirth cycle. And of course,
you talk about limin being death, and it reminds me of
the death rebirth cycle, that we will have these mini deaths
or all these, I guess, series of awakenings throughout our
life, that if we're not open,
(42:07):
if we're not in base of openness and receiving and
noticing, then we'll just think bad things are happening to
us. We won't have that perspective. And that's
why myths and archetypes are so powerful, because they give us that.
Visual and that landing and inquiry into what might be happening
for us. And I think people are terrified of
(42:29):
the dark, of the depth of the underworld. I know
my mother was always afraid when I was a child or in college
even, I wanted to go to Mississippi and
register voters. I did go in the spring of 64, but I
wanted to go back and register voters. My parents
refused. People were killed then.
(42:51):
But I think my parents were afraid
that where I felt my call was too
dangerous and I would be destroyed. And they were probably
wise in restraining me until I could find
the way that I uniquely was called, which wasn't perhaps
registering voters in 1964.
(43:13):
But I do feel like I've been through dangerous times,
and I've come through depression is one of the things
medial women experience. Yeah, I loved reading that in
your book, and that's where I kind of want to wrap as we move
through, because for me, I was
diagnosed with something called dysthymia when I was 19. And by the time
(43:36):
I. No, 21 is when I got diagnosed, by the time I was
21, actually preparing to serve a mission for my church. And so I had
to go through. All these things to get ready.
And the psychiatrist in San Francisco, he's. Like,
you've been dysthymic your entire life, your entire
childhood. And that was just my baseline because. I was trying to
(43:58):
stabilize my was, you know, trying to adjust, and
it just created kind of this inner chronic numbness, or
not necessarily dissociation, but it. Was just a very
mild, chronic, low grade depression. It wasn't
just like high highs and low lows. I wasn't in bed for weeks. It wasn't
a traditional clinical depression. And I can tell you that
(44:20):
that's almost the entire reason that I went into the field of psychology
to get my degree. And then most of my career has been on
understanding the dynamic nature of emotions and how we hold them in our
bodies. And that it's just really interesting that that was one of the
markers of a medial, because I always thought there was something wrong
with me, that I. Was in that chronic, sort of low.
(44:41):
Grade depression space that maybe you can enlighten some of our listeners.
For some, it might be anxiety or something along this. They're on the same
spectrum, really. But, yeah, why don't you explore that with us just a little
bit? Well, I went through profound depression.
When. I didn't really know that I was medial,
(45:02):
and I felt like I couldn't escape. It was like the church
was falling apart from, there's nothing wrong with the church. It was just I
was growing in a new direction. We didn't have money to send me
to school. I didn't know how it was going to be able to
develop this new part that was just burst forth.
This is like in your 40s. Is this the time period you're talking about? My
(45:24):
40s? My psyche took over. My dreams took
over, and I went into analysis for a long time.
And the depression, I think, was the voice of my
psyche saying, there is something more here
that you have to work on or you
will be sick. And I do think our psyches do that
(45:46):
to us, and our dreams tell us, even the nightmares tell
us important things. I think media women feel
like your comment, there's something wrong with me. I've gotten
comments, I've gotten letters from people who say, I always thought there
was something wrong with me. And it's such a relief to
know maybe there's not. Our culture so
(46:08):
doesn't understand this and we pathologize it
because we can't hold it as a
psychological, spiritual way of being in the world.
Yeah, I'm hopeful that there are a lot of
people now coming out and talking about embracing
your individuality and understanding how you're built and, like human design and
(46:30):
gene keys and astrology, and there's just a lot of people. They're just like, this
is who I am. This is how I'm built. This is how I came into
the world. This is the way I incarnated. This is my
build. This is my makeup. So I am hopeful
that there are. Less people that are underground and
that there are more people coming out of the shadows and work like you're doing,
(46:50):
I think, is really affirming and really.
Timely because I don't know if it'll. Happen in our
lifetime, but I think we're going to start to see some. Major
critical mass shifts in the way. People move in
the world and what. We value as the culture and how.
We allow people to manifest their inherent gifts. But I would love for
(47:12):
you, Bobby, to just maybe close this out with a reading.
I know you have a prayer that you love to
express. And however, just
for those listeners who may not consider themselves religious or whatever,
really isn't religious, it's just a way of communicating with the
divine and the all. And so I would love for
(47:34):
you. To round us out with that. I
need to say before I do that, that the word prayer and the word
dream, for me, I am always getting them mixed up.
So if I write a prayer for a
church service or something, I may say to my husband, I just finished writing a
dream. Oh, I love that in the morning. And
(47:56):
I said, I had the most incredible prayer last night.
And I think it's because they both come from that same
deep, unconscious place. Yeah. This is my
prayer for women at the limin. It's the end of my book.
Deep mystery, divine spirit, sacred,
(48:17):
other, source of all ground of being. God,
you, beyond name, concept, or words,
you to which medial women are connected, we
lift this prayer. May our limin be the
edge of your hand. Hold us in your open
palm, not too tightly, that we might be
(48:40):
crushed, not too lightly, that we might
slip off. May we find courage in the
darkness that we travel discernment in what
is ours to know and carry wisdom, to
leave what is not ours behind.
Balance between the 1ft on this side
(49:01):
and the 1ft on the other.
May our culture grow from encasement to the
old ways, through the chaos of disruption
into new forms that are permeable enough
to embrace ancient wisdom as well as new
ways of being. May there be room
(49:24):
for our gifts among the gifts of those many
others, so very different, all of which
are needed so that we can live into the
fullness of our beings, so that we can be
heard amidst clatter and clutter.
May we find respect among other women,
(49:47):
those who carry swords, those who carry
babies, those who carry hearts.
As we carry insights and hidden truths.
May we acknowledge our wounds. May they
not create of us victims. May we claim
our gifts, may they not create in us
(50:09):
arrogance. We are becoming ever more
the self we have been from birth.
Use us in service to the greater whole.
May our being make a difference in creation.
So may it be. So. May it be. Thank you
so much, Bobby. That was just beautiful. I wanted to just
(50:33):
remind the listeners to grab your book, stepping out of the shadows, naming
and claiming the medial woman today. And it did
win a nautilus book award, which I can totally see.
Very well researched and written and put together. And of course,
your soul is all over through this book as I've gotten to know you. So
thank you so much for your offering to this world and for being. With
(50:56):
our listeners today. Thank you, Sherry, for having me, for inviting
me. It's been a real privilege, and I hope this book
will just find the people who need it. I trust
that. And people can find. I do, too. And people can find your
book on
robertabcorson.com. So that's
robertabcorson.com.
(51:19):
Thank you again. Thank you, cherie. Hey,
cherie. Here. Have you gotten my free whole body healing kit mini
course? All you have to do is ask to join our private Facebook group
Soul rose community, and we'll send it right to your inbox and I want you
to know that I am so grateful for every single one of you who listens
to these episodes. You can follow me on Instagram at Cherie
(51:41):
Burton to deepen into the discussion that you heard today. And I would
be ever so grateful if you would leave this podcast a positive review
on Apple Podcasts. This allows many more people to find
these kinds of healing and empowerment gems that we bring forward in our discussions.
And if you want to see our faces, check out my soul row show
YouTube channel. Have a glorious week and we'll talk to you next time on the
(52:03):
Soul Row show. It.
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