230: Two SISTERS Talk Mental Health, Mothering & Biz

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Hey, Robin. Hello, Cis.
Also known as Cis or Hun.
That's what I called you growing up.
So today we're talking. Well, we're
going to segue into talking about women
and entrepreneurialism and motherhood. And is

(00:24):
entrepreneurialism a word? Entrepreneurialism. Entrepreneur.
Anyway. And how we crafted
our own path. Had to fight for it. How you and I initially
aligned in this beautiful work of breaking family patterns,
along with our older sister, Tanya.
And so we're going to get into some of the blocks and resistance that we've

(00:46):
had to work through personally just to claim our path and to listen to
the call of our soul and create wealth and all of
those things that were so stigmatized. I feel like, you know, for most
of our lives and still. Still is there that we have to work through. But
I want to start with our story, our why.
Yeah. And just to set this up, a lot of my listeners

(01:08):
know that I have lost a sister to mental
illness. We have. The very, very
first episode that I ever did on this podcast was in February of
20, 2019, where you
and Tanya and I talked
about some of our family patterns of

(01:30):
mental illness,
some of the deeper stories and connection to why
we do what we do and where our hearts are at with this work and
helping humanity and lifting familial patterns of
mental illness. But I want to start with Shawna's death, our sister
Shawna. And.

(01:54):
As I look at the arc of my life and
from a purpose standpoint, I can see
that from day one, my soul had this knowing
that I was going to be moving into this mind, body science, work,
psychology, understanding mental illness from
a higher perspective, let's just say, and from a darker

(02:15):
perspective, and so getting my psych
degree and moving in the direction of thinking that that was going to be my
profession, that I was going to be a psychotherapist
and just moving in that direction.
But when Shawna took her life, and just for some
context around that, because everyone gets curious around how she did

(02:37):
that, she was a mother of five.
She had. She was in recovery from an addiction
to opioids.
She was bipolar, diagnosed bipolar. And we later
found out after her death, through talking
to her psychologist or her therapist, that she was

(02:59):
also diagnosed schizophrenic.
And so there were a lot of complexities to her
path. She also had open heart surgery when she was five. I was
seven. She had severe
scoliosis. And as a teenager, she had to have a full
spinal fusion where they opened up her entire spine and

(03:21):
fused rods on either side of her spinal column. So she just had a lot
of physical and mental
challenges in her life, her whole life.
And so you came along
a little later. So Tanya and Shana and I are all like, mom had us
in, like, three and a half years or something crazy like that.

(03:43):
And you came along when I was almost
twelve. Yep. Yeah.
But you actually spent a lot of time with Shawna, too, just like I did,
because she was right there and she was home and.
And our family is really close, wouldn't you say? Our family, like, our
siblings were all super close. We're close. I can.

(04:04):
My earliest memories is sleeping in
bed with mom, which I'm sure we'll get to, and also sharing a room
with Shawna, like, so ten years older than
me, and I was like, I just. I don't ever
remember sleeping in my own bed in childhood. I know.
I used to snuggle with you, too. Like, you were, like, just popping around.

(04:27):
From bed to bed, snuggling. Yeah. And that's why
you snuggle all your babies like you do. By the way, my sister Robin has
eight kids. I probably already said that in the intro, but when Shawna took
her life, you were pregnant with your first child, so she took her
life in. My goodness, it'll be.
How many years ago this month? April

(04:49):
2005. Yeah, 19 years. 19 years.
It doesn't seem like that long ago. It's
so alive for us still, wouldn't you say? It still lives.
I feel like I'm constantly still being led by her, so
it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't. Definitely

(05:09):
doesn't feel. But I'm able to keep track because I know I was
pregnant with my oldest, so I am always. I easily just
am able to keep track of it. Yeah. Kennedy is like the
embodiment of how long Shawn has been gone. Really? Yeah.
Yeah. So as I mentioned to our listeners, she
had five children. She has five children. Her oldest was eleven at the

(05:31):
time of her death. Her youngest was two. And I think the
thing, and I'll let you speak to that part of it,
that what struck you the most or what devastated you the most?
Shauna was two years younger than me. And
it was really difficult for me to witness when she started having children,
how quickly the mental illness

(05:55):
accelerated. And there were
so many times that I wanted to just
save her and fix her and rescue. And I think
for me, it was just a really big lesson. And you cannot fix, save or
heal anyone. All you can do is love them. And
I know if she were alive today and she was part of this conversation, which

(06:16):
she, in some ways, is, because she's such a
part of us, she would have her
own regrets as we have ours. And
one of the markers I think of her life to me was just
how deeply she did love and how open she was and how real she
was. And

(06:39):
so when she took her life, it was a
defining moment for me in terms of the time.
I had four young
children, and the youngest was
two or three. And I was just like,
by the way, Shawna lived in the same town I did. Our children were very

(07:01):
close in age. We saw each other all of the time.
There was a lot she was holding back from me, but I could also see
that she was really trying. You know, just completed a 90
day treatment, a 90 day stay in a treatment
facility for addiction. And
her mode of taking her life

(07:23):
was to go to a hotel in Salt Lake City.
She took a 90 day supply that her insurance had mailed
to her of a drug that was used to manage her
bipolar, and she overdosed. But before she did, she wrote a letter. She
wrote a letter to the family. She wrote a letter to her
husband. And in

(07:45):
essence, the
angst that she was really feeling, aside from just
absolute hopelessness, was that she couldn't be the kind
of mother that she wanted to be for her children, that she felt like she
could be a better guardian angel than she could be a mother.
That was one of the biggest things that stood out to me in her letter.

(08:08):
So I remember after she. After the
funeral and after, you know, gets so intense that you
kind of run on this really dark adrenaline. That's the only way I can put
it. But, like, I felt. I don't know about you, Robin, but I just felt
like someone had stuck an anchor on my chest, like, on my heart
chakra. And I just. There was just

(08:28):
so much sorrow and heaviness. I
wasn't angry. I felt like I spent a lot of my life
just being angry at her for not being able to, quote, unquote,
get it together or see her worth and her
gifts. But I remember
a couple of weeks after the funeral, I just went to her grave,

(08:51):
and I stood over it, and I
promised her that I would be her voice.
And I know you have felt similarly. You have felt that part
of. I mean, that was such a defining moment, I feel like, for all of
us. But that's sort of my contextualizing
around what moved me into going

(09:13):
from more of a western remedial treatment
model of psychology
into the path that I actually ended up moving into, which was more of a
holistic, mind, body science kind of
alternative path.
I want you to speak to now that I've just talked for, like, ten minutes.

(09:34):
I would love for you, Robin, to share. By the way, there's
levity between us, but also know that we have
spoken. How many times, how many hundreds of
times have we talked about. Yeah,
yeah. This is sort of the impetus of our work that you and
I partnered in together later. But

(09:55):
just know that, you know, if there is levity, it's not to
undermine or minimize the pain that we have felt. It was
abs. I can't even. Absolute devastation.
Absolute devastation. So we've had space around it, and it's been helpful for us to
talk about it a lot, and that's been part of our path. But why don't
you speak to what was going on with you during that time

(10:18):
and how you framed her passing and moved into the
work that you were being called to do. Yeah. So
I think, you know, you kind of talked about, I feel like I
grew up in a totally different family than in the family you grew up with.
Right. Like, I had different parents. I had just. Let's
speak. We had the same parents, but, yeah, they

(10:41):
were older. They matured, immense. I
mean, a ten year between, you know, Shawna, you
and Tanya, with Bryce, Ryan and me, it was like, you
know. Right. And I think
even, you know, so I was the baby of the family, but then our
aunt, my father's sister,

(11:03):
took her life and left behind
her son for our parents to raise. So
our little brother is our biological cousin. And that happened when
you were ten and I was 20. I was eight. That happened
when I was eight or nine. No, because I was 21.
Because I was getting ready to go on a mission. I thought dusty, when I

(11:25):
was eight, and then. Yeah, we had him for a bit before we
adopted him. Yeah. So I just rem. Like,
I was so young, and I was so
confused by the whole concept of suicide.
And I just remember there were, you know, I
went from being the baby of the family to now having a little brother. It's

(11:47):
just shifted so many dynamics in my life.
And, you know, also me growing up,
me being the last child, the child number six
in the family, and mom having sort of, I
feel having postpartum with every child, and especially

(12:07):
you, by. The time you came along. Yeah, by the time I came along,
you know, I certainly didn't know this, obviously, at the time, but
looking back, I recognized, like, wow, the first five years of my
life, I was in bed with mom like that's.
Like, so many. I still have, like, her
bedroom in my mind's eye of me laying on bed and the whole scale

(12:29):
of, like, the ceiling, her bathroom, like, all of that and just being
nuzzled up next to her. So, you
know, that all swirly,
whirly in my mind as a child and not really having any
positioning or context or place for that. And
then as I am now coming and

(12:51):
witnessing Shauna's and I will say, your journey, too,
and Tanya's of drama USA,
seeing that, like, the mental
illness in our family play out as you guys became young adults
when you were raising your babies. I was still a teenager, so

(13:13):
I. You know, what's not
like now? I recognize those things as, like, wow, you guys were really
suffering from depression and anxiety and postpartum.
But I didn't understand what that we did talk about it. It was
just so by the time it
came, at the time of and leading up

(13:35):
to Shawna's death, I was a brand new newlywed. I got
married. The note that fall, before
the spring when she. When she passed, and I.
It was, like, the happiest time in my life.
And married to a great guy. You're, like,
super beautiful.

(13:57):
Yeah. Sooner than we wanted. But,
you know, I'm. I'm, you know, five months
pregnant. And then that this happened, and
I. I remember even before we got
the confirmation, I knew. I
knew she was gone. I. I didn't feel her on

(14:20):
this earth. I just remember,
like, grieving even before we all kind of met at your house, Shereen,
like, waiting. And dad was calling.
Our dad's a retired policeman, so he was, like, calling all the police departments to
find out. Yeah. And I just knew in the back of my mind, like, she's
gone. I didn't feel urgency. I really just wanted to just find

(14:42):
her, you know, to find her.
And so when. And then,
like, I remember when dad got the call and he broke down
and we were all just in your living room.
And the funny enough thing was, I really actually
felt a lot of protection around me, and I felt as I was pregnant,

(15:05):
I don't know what exactly that was, but I do
remember kind of feeling removed
from my body, to be quite honest. Like, you had to disassociate.
Yeah, like, if I felt the full weight of it,
and I had kind of already, like I said, grieved a little bit before
even coming to your house, but, you know, that finalizing thing of, like,

(15:29):
gone and realizing what she
did, it was too much. Too much. You
can't place it. You just what?
And the enormity of
the wave of so many emotions.
It's not like it's the typical

(15:51):
grieving process of denial and anger. It was
like all of that all at once. On top of,
like, immense, like, sadness, grief. I remember
we were yelling and screaming and, like, it was. Mom was
like, running around and comforting. She had so much
peace. Do you remember that? Yes. She totally just was the strong.

(16:12):
Like, she was feeling our pain,
attached to her own pain. Yet it was totally just thinking about our
kids. She was not. Did not go there yet, but
she. Also, like you, she felt. Shauna was already, like she told
dad because they were driving to our youngest brother's marine
graduation when they got the call that she was missing and turned around and

(16:34):
came. Started to drive back. So by the time mom and dad got to my
place and we were all gathered, mom told me later that she
knew. She already knew.
So then we get to just all the
things around what you do for burial, which was also
such a crazy.

(16:59):
Body, that piece of dressing
her body. Talk about disassociation. I'm really glad that mom
journaled all of it and shared it with us because there's so much that
I just completely stuffed and
blocked for myself, memory and awareness.
I just remember coming into the room and, like,

(17:21):
there's something so weird about when, you know someone's
gone and. But
then when you're coming and you're seeing their body and even though you know they're
not really there, it's so. It's such an
out of this world experience
to see that and to know that

(17:44):
they're not there, but you're seeing the sister that you
love. You're seeing, like, just the
finality of it. And then
it was. Yeah, just. And also, I think, yeah, a lot of
disassociating. I didn't. I remember I had a hard time. You were the one.
Yeah. You were the one that, like, you mom and Tonya and I. And you

(18:06):
just kind of hung back and watched. And then at the end, mom had said
to you, Robin, you're going to regret it if you don't do something. Because I
was, like, doing her hair and we were,
you know, I was putting her earrings in and different things, and Tanya was. I
don't remember, but they were. We were all super hands on. And you were just
kind of like, I can't. You were like, I can't, mom. And then finally you
did. You mustered the. To put her slippers

(18:29):
on. And I also do
remember, though, like, in the speaking of like, our family
has such a, like, a sense of humor. We all do. Like,
we bond on our humor, and we are laughing always.
And all, you know, Shawna had just this total, like,
operatic laugh is the only way I know. Well, she was an opera singer, let's

(18:51):
be honest. She was an actual singer. So
fun and fun loving. And
I do distinctly remember feeling
her trying to make levity of this.
Like, it was like, oh, don't I look great? Or it was, like,
kind of like, her humor. That actually

(19:13):
is what opened me up. I don't know if you remember that, but I
was like, you. And then finally, I started to feel her
humor, like you said, her realness, her down to
earthness, and that was like, oh,
yeah, she's here. Yeah. And that did
give me comfort. And it was just like, okay. And

(19:35):
then, you know, fast forwarding to
graveside, and, you
know, this is where,
again, it was, I'm there, but I'm not there.
And I do, though,
remember them getting ready to lower her down,

(19:58):
and it was like, the last goodbyes, like, and all the
flowers were on there, and I remember us all kind of gathering
around, around, and I'm sure there was
some sort of graveside prayer. I don't remember that, really. But, like, I
just remember it was kind of coming to, like, saying,
like, you know, and

(20:21):
I remember having. I just remember
being so present to, like, the baby in my belly.
And I remember, like, I knew. How far along were you? You were, like, six
months along, right? Five months. So I knew it was a girl,
and I knew. I remember, like, all the
lines started coming together as far as, like, oh, my gosh. Like,

(20:45):
mom, postpartum. Her mom, our grand. Our great
grandmother, postpartum. Like, how long was she in bed for? Like,
and now, shawna, where that catalyst?
Well, heart failure. Heart problems. Yeah. Sadness,
deep grief. And I. Here I am, and
I'm carrying a girl, and I just remember feeling like,

(21:08):
oh, my gosh, I. Like, I
could get this disease, honestly, is what I looked at it as. It's like,
as soon as I have a baby, I could get this postpartum disease.
Like, it could kill me. I
remember thinking that, like, this could kill me.
And then I was again just, like, ever present to this baby.

(21:30):
And it was like, my first mama bear. Like,
no,
distinctly, like, no, I
am not passing this on. It is stopping here.
This stops here. This is stopping

(21:51):
here. Like, I just. And it was like, everything.
Shawna's death at that point was my purpose.
Birth. Like, that was, yeah, a good way to
look at it. It was like a death rebirth. It totally was.
And I also felt Shawn as, like,
yes. Like, yes, like, do that.

(22:13):
Go. You know, I also think it's important to say here, too, that we
also felt her saying yes, but we also felt her deep regret. It's not
like. Like she didn't really
want. Wasn't in the fading mode then.
It was. No, it was very, like, what did I do?
We felt that energy. So let's be clear with that, you know?

(22:37):
But it was. It was a.
It was this glimmer. I just remember it was like my
one ray of sunshine and, like, the darkest point of my
life that it was just like, I felt
like, okay, like. And it, like, we did
not waste time. I remember coming away from

(23:01):
that. And, like, now what do we do, Tanya?
Mom? Like, we were like, hell no.
Like, and very closely. I remember
after also Tanya telling us, like, she beat me to it. I had. She said
that actually at the house. I'm glad you brought that up, because when.
When mom was going around comforting all of us, when we. When dad had just

(23:22):
told us that they had found her body, um, the Salt
Lake City police department had gone and found where she had checked in under her
name, got in there, had found her, told dad
it wasn't that much longer after that was revealed that Tanya turned to us
and said, she beat me to it. So our. My older sister
Tanya, she and I are actually only just barely a year

(23:44):
apart. She was. And we should also mention, too, Robin, that both
of our sisters were on over a dozen different
medications to manage their
bipolar and the side effects. And
so Tanya actually had sorry
for years and years. They were not in the driver's seat.

(24:05):
Right. And they're both high creatives. That's another mile
marker, I guess, in our family of, like, melancholy and high
creativity and things and bipolar.
But I remember when Tanya
said that I could also feel in her what you just
brought up, which is. No, because she saw what it

(24:27):
did to us. Yeah. Promising, right? Then they're like,
I will never do this to you guys. I like her.
It was a gift for her to see the actual
aftermath of what that decision would do to the
family. And so. Yeah, and I also need
to say, too, that Tanya had had some childhood

(24:49):
trauma that I didn't have or that Shawna didn't
have. There were a lot of complexities to what
was happening with. With her
biochemistry and her trauma that she was
actually misdiagnosed with bipolar and heavily medicated
rather than them looking. Same with Shawna. Rather than them

(25:12):
having look. Looking at the core wounds.
And it was just a lot of symptom management.
There was lack of sleep. There were all these things. And I
actually just to back up a little bit, too, that I just remembered I was
working in an addiction recovery center as a group
counselor. And at the. At the time that

(25:34):
Shawna was in an addiction recovery center just down
the road from where I was working. And so it's
already up for me because we do have a preponderance for addiction in our
family history as well. And so
it was already up for me. Like, I really think that
there's the. There's something going on that we're not really.

(25:56):
Like, I worked at a psychiatric hospital. I worked at this addiction recovery center, and
I'd worked at different behavioral centers, and I could just see
all they were doing was talk therapy and medication for the most part. Now, again,
this is, you know, 19 years ago, but still, it hasn't changed a whole lot
since then. And we could see that, but we didn't
know another way. We

(26:19):
didn't understand that wholeness model that we do now.
And so, yeah, so continue with what you were saying. But I just wanted to
interject that Tanya was trying to fight for her
life and was ready to give up. And then this happened with
shauna, and then it was like, oh, plan b.
And I just remember feeling like all of us really yoked to

(26:42):
each other in this class. Like. Like, we're not going
to lose another family member to this. Like, this is done, you
know, like, whatever it takes. Like, that was the thing. I
just remember, like, whatever it takes, I'm going to find
other things than what my sister was given, because Shawna
tried everything under the sun. She really did,

(27:06):
like, shocks from shock, electroconvulsive shock
therapy. Yeah. Just dedications to rehab to,
like, everything, every treatment, obviously,
as well. And so I just remember leaving that,
like, just really, like, I really felt
God's love, and I felt like, like,

(27:28):
yeah, I have not left you empty handed is kind of just what
I just knew there were things out there, and that's what became my purpose,
was just to find those options, to find the
better options. And you were already kind of in the holistic
space because you were a massage therapist. I think
that does play a role. Like, I remember I was also going to go to

(27:50):
school for psychology. Like, I think everyone in our
family, that's where you go. So
I remember I was, like, I was enrolled to go to University
of Utah for the psych and I had a
boyfriend at the time who was going to massage school, and I remember having a

(28:11):
huge migraine. And he was like, hey, let me try
this, you know, acupressure technique. And I was, like, really
skeptical about it. I was like, don't you just have, like, some
ibuprofen or whatever? But he was learning it. He's like, can I just practice it?
So he did this, like, acupressure technique and my head,
it totally went away within, like, less than a minute. And I was.

(28:33):
It was a shock through my system because it was
like, that is the route I knew I needed to take
was more in the somatic
approach, more body, like, the holistic
approach. Like, it was. I was not to go down that
allopathic route of psychology. Like, it really was to

(28:56):
open that up. So, like, literally that next month, I enrolled
in his same massage school program. Like,
total about face, really sad note. Didn't he take his life
later? No, he was an addict and he died
from. From that also. From his addiction.
Yeah, so. So I was kind of. Yeah,

(29:19):
so. And that was like, pretty close out of, you know, I did like a
couple semesters of college, but I really
about faced and went down natural medicine
and alternative medicine. And I'm so glad that I
did because that's just where I haven't
stopped. And really, I think getting into more

(29:40):
of that mind body connection. So it
was like once I got the foundations of
what I learned with how the body works with
massage school and I learned about emotion code, I got
all of these. I just. We just couldn't get enough. It was like mom and

(30:00):
Tanya and you and I, we were just sponges.
Like the weirdest stuff, too. Some of it we had to weed through.
But here's what's powerful about what was going on.
Yeah. Because it was like you were saying, we
prayed and we felt there was something
bigger happening with our mission and that

(30:23):
she was, in some ways, I guess you could say, kind of a sacrificial lamb
in the sense that all of these family generational things just
congealed in her from her heart to her back to her mind
and all of these things. And
so it was very
telling that

(30:45):
as I look back now, in retrospect, everything was being divinely
set up. And I remember, like you
praying and declaring actually in a microphone at a
suicide rally. The cycle of suicide stops here. The Deseret news
printed it. I was misses Utah at the time. I didn't know what I was
saying. I just knew that it had to stop. I didn't know how. But

(31:05):
the most powerful piece of this, I think, Robin, what we
did, you mean mom and Tanya, is we just opened our minds.
We were like, we don't care how weird. We have the discernment we
can filter through. And this is really. It was after her death
that I started learning about quantum,
quantum healing energy psychology.

(31:31):
I was just so fascinated by it because it just seemed to make
sense to me that we hold the energy in our
bodies. And as, you know, as a massage therapist, I was just taught it
was all kind of in your mind. Your brain is kind of the
command center, and it's just processing all of your emotions. But as you and I
both know now, emotions are processed through the entire body. And when

(31:53):
we started talking about that in 2000, you know,
mid two thousands, everybody looked at us literally, like we
needed to be committed to. And, you know, like,
just looking at us, like, what are you now? It's common
knowledge. Have something as big as what happened to
us. It forces you to think

(32:15):
outside of your norms. Like, it forces you to be open
because you're. That clearly didn't
work. Like, so it's. I would
say that was the catalyst to so many other decisions.
Like, when we're talking in this context
of, like, okay, like, what you were saying shree. Like, all these things were set

(32:37):
up for us to, like, what we're doing now. Like,
I look at all of those things, and
one of the biggest things that stands out to me, especially right after the time
of Shauna's death and I'm a new mom, and
was how much? Looking at some of those
alternative methods, like aromatherapy, for example. Like, we had

(33:01):
heard about aromatherapy, but I would say what was
available at the time wasn't.
It was so loosely regulated. I would say we didn't like, because we were
dabbling in essential oils, but I would say, like, it
wasn't so. It
wasn't results we were getting or it wasn't like, these, like, wow,

(33:23):
that was a really big, you know, effect. But we were starting
to see, like, I was starting to look at, what are the big heavy hitters
when it comes to mind body medicine and
different modalities and therapy therapies? There was EMdR, there was
eft, there were, you know, these other things that I was looking
at. But I remember, you

(33:45):
know, when essential oils really
started coming to the forefront was when I, at this time, now
had two babies, and
I was starting to look at.
I was just using them for medicinal, like, for their, you know,
colic or diaper rash. This is, like, also

(34:06):
massage. You were using, like, to calm the nervous system. Yeah. Like, I just, you
know, I was like, oh, you know, and. But. But the.
But the brand that I found and was using, I was
really, like, I was actually seeing the results, so I was really pleased with that.
And then I was using them on my clients, and I
remember feeling like, oh, this is

(34:28):
interesting. Like, they're having, like, really faster results.
And I was noticing a difference in my demeanor
when I was massaging them with the oils. And then I
remember going to a convention one year with, you cherish. This would have been,
like, 2010. Yep,
2010. And

(34:50):
I don't know, for whatever reason, like, I feel like that was completely
designed for us. I just want to, like, think that way because it was
like, you had these. Well, Tanya and mom were with us,
too. We were all sitting on a table, and we're taking
notes, furiously talking about it. There's scientists,
these addiction recovery centers, and they were just really

(35:12):
hitting home the whole limbic system and the olfactory
system and how the oils are such a quick, like,
quickening agent, basically, for. For getting in there. And
so I just remember so, so
distinctly, like, I remember the information
coming in, and it was like my body, though, was reacting

(35:35):
so much to what was happening that it was hard for me to keep up
with the info because I was just, like. It was like, a clear. This is
what you've been waiting for. This is what you've been waiting for. And there was
a lady that got up and started talking about her experience, and it was almost
like, shawna. Yes. Yeah. And then I remember looking
over at you, and I'm like, sobbing. You're sobbing. Mom and Tanya are,
like, holding it together. Sobbing. Yeah.

(35:58):
It was bigger than what she was sharing. It was. And this is
something. This is a big thing that I see with a lot of people that
I've worked with who are wanting to know their purpose or they're wanting to feel
into their calling. And calling and a purpose are different. And I remember
learning from, I think it was John Maxwell. He's like, a mission or a purpose
is something you want to do. A calling is something you have to

(36:20):
do. So I think our emotional
catharsis at that time was also an indicator that
there's something bigger going on here, that you. That the reason that
you're sitting in this chair is that you're. You're feeling
this because it's part of your path to, um,
not just learn about it, but we would end up teaching

(36:43):
it. We would end up taking this baton. Not. Mom and Tanya
didn't really follow suit. But for whatever reason, you and I looked at each other
with us knowing. Like, our souls did a
handshake. Well, we literally did. Like a sister pinky.
Like, yeah, but I will
say, cherie. Like, there was also enormous

(37:04):
resistance for us. Like, I'm loving that you're saying a calling because I remember
it was like I got so clearly and
distinctly the voice came in that was like, you can continue to do the work
that you're doing and affect dozens of people because I had, and that's how
many people, like, every week, I could only really work with a dozen people every
week. You only have so much capacity to work one on

(37:27):
one with people. Yeah. And it was like, you can continue
to do the work that you're doing or you can affect
thousands. And I didn't grasp that. I didn't
really know at that, but I know that I resisted because
this whole package came in a network marketing company. Yeah. And
for, let's just say it's Doterra essential oils. We were there from the very

(37:49):
beginning. We were in the circles of people who were just
like, like I said, we were kind of divinely planted into the culture and
the places where this was originating and moving through and
becoming a thing, and we weren't sure. We sat
in it for two years and just used the oil. Like, we were like,
this is not what we want to do. We don't want

(38:12):
to be network marketing. Sister
people where we're living, like, Utah's like a
network marketing, like, like mecca of the
world. And there's so many companies that come, you and I would get hit
up all the time to all these parties for this
makeup, this purse, this clothing, this face

(38:34):
care, whatever. And it. I still do. I still get hit up. Just
as a side note, I think everybody does, but now this was, this
was more for us, putting the business
model aside. Yeah. It was very,
very heart based of, like, we want, number one, to break these family
patterns. Number two, we want

(38:56):
to teach. Because I had also had a parallel
experience with one of my children right before we
were sitting in that setting and filling the spirit and
chills and sister pact, you know, that we were not going to, you know,
I had had my son Noah, and he's okay with me sharing
this, but he had a very pronounced, and

(39:19):
he was, how old was he? Twelve or 13? He's 27
now. But he had a very pronounced
issue. And I actually
doubled down and resisted while he was put on a medication. That had
really horrible side effects. And so I doubled down and used all of the
training and tools of what I was using in the holistic realm,

(39:41):
including essential oils and mind body science and meditation
and just a lot of, like, earthing and grounding
and all the things that I never learned. Getting my psych degree, by the way.
And I was taking him to a psychologist and a psychiatrist.
And when he, literally, the month before we were sitting in those
chairs, he had such a pronounced breakthrough that his

(40:03):
psychiatrist was taking notes from me
and asking me what I did. And I think,
and I just need to say this, too, that when Noah and I
left Oni, he goes, oh, that medication's working really well. And I'm like, well,
I stopped him. And he's like, what? So anyway, so Noah and I are, like,
celebrating with a psychiatrist. We walk out. He's never been back for that particular

(40:25):
issue. And it's interesting that he turned
to me and he said, mom, you should share this with other
moms. And it was the same thing with you when I
was locking eyes with you in the next month, I got these chill bumps through
my whole body, like a visceral response out of the mouth of
babes. And I was like, yeah, why wouldn't I. If you had

(40:48):
this kind of a breakthrough, let's just say,
why would I. Like, I love to teach anyway and talk, but why wouldn't I
share that? Why. Why would I keep that to myself? Right? So all
these things kept happening. Yeah.
With Tanya. Yeah. You want to speak to that? That was powerful. I remember us
leaving that convention and we were like, okay, Tanya. Like,

(41:12):
like, and I would also say, like, I was on a mission. Like, if
you even looked sad, I was throwing oils. I just
wanted to, like, I learned that, but I was going to make sure.
Yeah, like, this really work. Like they say, like, we've been using them
medicinally, but we're, like, connecting those dots of, like,
for the emotionality of. This, for, like, which we didn't

(41:35):
know was actually an ancient science. It's an actual lineage.
It's an actual therapeutic
technology that was used in ancient times that grows in
the earth. And so it was new to
us. Yeah, people heard of aromatherapy, but it's
such, so loosely. But it's more than aroma. It's not

(41:56):
aroma. And it was really getting into, again, what
I had was learning with mind body medicine. It was just, like, the
perfect fit. And so I just remember leaving
that convention and you and I just being like, okay, like, let's.
Like, it was like, boots on the ground. Like, let's. We
were not only, like, out to prove, like, for sure if this

(42:18):
was really work, if this could really work at the level that
we felt that it could, but we were on a mission that
if it did, we would tell the world. Yeah. And I
remember Tanya, you know, telling us,
like, guys, I don't know how long it was after that. I want to say
within a year

(42:41):
of her being able to whittle down all of her
medications, she was working with her doctor, and
they were able to wean her off of almost all. Of which
is when she had her diagnosis rescinded. It was like, these medications are
actually exacerbating the bipolar
diagnosis. And when she weaned off of them and got stabilized and used

(43:02):
natural tools and did different things, she actually was herself
again. And she didn't exhibit those same, you
know, she didn't fit the criteria, the diagnostic criteria.
Yes. And she. I just remember her, like,
contributing so much of that to oils and
teaching us, like, yeah, when I'm feeling anxious, this is what I'm grabbing and keeping

(43:24):
in my purse. And so it was just like, that was
happening simultaneously as we're, like, literally sharing
this. You know, we just. We just put a
backpack on and we just started. I remember you had babies. Like, I
did, like, putting, like a. Like a baby carrier while
you're teaching classes. Yeah, this is, this is an important piece

(43:46):
because, number one, I just want to say that we're not. We're not
promoting a catch all fix, that. We're just sharing our story. We're just
sharing what found us. And it was the mechanism that was
leading us to what was calling us. And it always finds
you. Right. And me, too, in the most inconvenient
times. Right. We

(44:08):
were not just, let's be honest, we were not just searching for
answers, for health. We wanted opportunities
for our family to thrive, our families to thrive
and have some of the things that we didn't have in terms of
opportunities, travel, connection to
humanity, humanitarian service. Like, we were mission

(44:30):
driven there as well. We just didn't make the connection
that our soul calling was going to produce
abundance and prosperity. That wasn't even,
like, that was a nice side benefit. Right. But when we
caught that vision. Yeah. It wasn't driving force. And
I would say, like, it certainly was,

(44:55):
like, one of the other things in the back of my mind as I was
teaching all over was like, this would be really cool if
my husband could be home with me so I could do more of this and
he could do this with me. I do remember that being also at the
forefront. And so it was within a year, we were making
a six figure income. Exactly one year later. Yes. Which

(45:18):
was unexpected, was totally unexpected.
Flabbergasted everyone, including us.
And that's when it really clicked.
Like, oh, I get it, but let's
back up, too. Like, we just skipped over a
whole year of literal hell working through our issues. Okay,

(45:41):
we had to bust through issues about money. We
had to bust through issues about, what is this woman doing? She's a
mom and she's traveling and she all the, you know, she was young kids.
We had to bust through just our own reticent and
our network marketing business model. It was a network marketing
business model which we now have reframed as more of, like, relationship

(46:03):
marketing and team building and leadership development. But at
the time, so much conditioning. So much stigma,
and just, we were showing up anyway.
And this was also at the time where, like, people that were using essential
oils were like, just like your crazy
aunt, or like, the. There were people giving it a bad rap

(46:24):
because there were other companies that were making really outrageous health claims with.
It, such bad stigma attached to it. And,
and then us talking about the emotional aspects that
was. I will say we were really pioneering. That
because, like I said, people were looking at us like we were from
Mars. We were like, did you know that you hold emotion

(46:46):
in your liver? Did you know that? And we were saying all these things because
we were doing the research. We were reading molecules of emotion. We were looking into
the mind body science. We were starting to formulate our own,
and it was starting to make its way into more
of a mainstream thought, I think. But we were still kind of those
pioneers where even Doterra wasn't talking

(47:10):
about that, but we were, we were diving in. We were
collaborating with other leaders and teachers and
educators and people that had been in these fields, like
psychotherapy. Like you and I went into addiction recovery centers and we did beta trials.
Like, we really put boots to the ground because we
wanted and experiential evidence. We

(47:31):
created, we had. So it was
like we didn't, I remember, like, I didn't understand a
lot, even what we know now shree, because. We, we've had to catch up.
We were just going on our intuition a lot of the time, too. We just.
Yeah, but it was so fascinating to just
see the breakthroughs people were having. I

(47:52):
mean, literally, people who were not getting out of bed, people who
were suicidal, people who were like,
like. And to see how this was shifting them, like, to
actually see evidence of, like, I was
feeling this way. And there was the spectrum, right? It was like really
deep, you know, mood like someone. But it wasn't, and it wasn't

(48:14):
just. Let's just be clear, too. There. There were
a lot of indicators for the biochemistry to get regulated, for the
nervous system to calm. It wasn't just the oils. It was nutrition, it
was nutritional science, it was breathing, it was meditation. It was
still point. It was getting rid of the toxins in your home. Like, there were
all these moving pieces to it.

(48:36):
Yes, and so, but it was like we were covering,
we were talking about those things. We were talking about like
that. Again, my mission was to provide options for people. And
that's what I really just saw the oils being, were just like
a tremendous option to
help with that. And so

(48:58):
I remember it coming to the point where, um,
you and I were really. Well,
we exploded. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but we had no idea that
our, that this would go international. We. Within a year and a
half, we were in Asia. I ended up being in Australia.
Like, we were in multiple countries. Like, this

(49:22):
just took on. I mean, we worked hard, but, like,
we were very intentional, looking back, don't you think as you look at it now,
like, how intentional and intuitive we had to be, which is like
minders. We didn't. It was just like, it was
just. It's going to happen. Like we are going to. Yeah, like,
and I have to say, if I hadn't had you with me in that process,

(49:43):
it would have been really hard. I think when people start an entrepreneurial pursuit, they
feel like they're a solopreneur. But no one ever is a
solopreneur, right? If. If you can
choose to partner or link arms
with someone and create a movement in whatever mechanism and whatever
vehicle that you decide to do and you have someone you love and trust with

(50:04):
you. I think that was part of our magic that Doterra put us
on stages a lot of the times together. We spoke at
convention, I think one or two years after we had that
awakening kind of experience. And it was
really beautiful. It's now been beautiful to see the metamorphosis of the company.
Now there's multiple, it's like a billion plus dollar company, and there's

(50:26):
multiple millions of members. But at the time when
we felt the call and we were positioned there and we were saying yes to
teach and we were saying yes to our calling, we had no idea.
We just, there was no.
I think, you know, I do want to speak to the fact that,

(50:47):
like, once we got to that
point, there's a certain level where it's like,
I feel like we were just pulled forward. Like, we were just, like,
doing that. And then it got, you know, there's this
point where we were getting to burnout, and it was
because we were, you know,

(51:10):
now we had, like, a six figure business. We were managing
thousands of people on our team, and we're, like, top of all of.
We had no systems in place. And
I remember, you know, there were quite a few years of
us trying to navigate, like, trying to.

(51:30):
Now it was like we stepped out of our realm of, like, what
we just intuitively knew and flowed, like, what we did in our first year
of really doing that. And we went into
patriarchal systems as the best way to put it. Like, just to
just, like, pushing through, like, get her done.

(51:51):
It was so, like, paradox. Do it that way, too. Well,
it was ironic because we went through a season where we were
exhausting ourselves and making ourselves sick because we were trying to meet the needs of
everyone, including our families and our businesses. And,
and it got to the point where we were like, laugh. I remember you and
I had a call where we're like, have you been taking your supplements?

(52:13):
No. Have you been doing your oils in your deep? No. Oh, my
gosh. Like, we are totally being hypocrites. We're not lacking our talk.
And this is really where, you know, I want to talk about, like,
the mother guilt wound, like, huge. This
is, you know, it wasn't until I, you know, we're at
that income bracket and we're, like, realizing, oh, this is not

(52:36):
sustainable. Like, we, like, like,
we were still doing so many things at home for our
fit. Like, we were not calling in the. Support that
we, because we believed that we would be less of a mother or
a woman or a wife or whatever if we did call in that support, because
what does that say about us? We're not pulling our weight

(52:58):
as a woman, as a mom. Yeah, there was a lot of struggle with that.
A lot of the conditioning of just, like, oh, my gosh, like, if. If I
hire a cleaning person, my children are not going to learn the value
of cleaning, and they're going to be ruined. And if I am not the
one making the meals for my family, then they're going
to not. They're going to think I'm not a nurturing

(53:20):
mother like my mother was, you know, like, all of these things. Like, if
I really asked for the support that I knew I needed
to be able to now run a multifigure business.
And with the amount of kids that I had, like, I
knew I needed support. I did genuinely not
know how to ask for it or felt

(53:42):
worthy to ask for it, because I felt like it would.
It would. It would
make like I really did feel like I would be. I
am. This all goes back to what my definition of a
good mom was, which was, you know, modeled to me by a mother
I had that, you know, literally

(54:04):
sewed our clothes, made our meals from scratch,
just lived and died. A lot of that, Robin, was
because we didn't have resources. We were in poverty.
And I think that. Well, I locked that in.
Yeah, I locked that in pretty young. When

(54:28):
I remember when I was in, like, fourth and fifth grade, my mom would get
me up at five in the morning to deliver newspapers with her. And
there was a season where she took me to clean high school
bathroom, the bathrooms at the local high school at night,
to speak to that a little bit, because you brought up the mother wound.

(54:49):
And we happen to have a mom who is
extremely brilliant, high creative. She has suffered from
depression. We've seen that cycling. But she would always say
things to us like, I can't wait to see what you girls create in the
world, and not just, you know, in your church community or your homes
or, you know, your. Your main communities or whatever.

(55:11):
It was like, I can't wait to see what you guys create in the world.
And we got that programming from her, even though that wasn't
what we would get from the patriarchy. Right? And
so I remember,
what year did grandma diagram end? It
probably would have been around 2016, I think it

(55:32):
was 2014. That was the year Emma was born. That's right.
But I remember I was on stage speaking at Doterra leadership
to women on managing, being a mom
and growing a business, being successful,
whatever that means in both arenas, and how you do that. And we had just

(55:52):
gotten word that grandma had just passed away. Our mom's mom.
And I was super close to her most all of my life.
And she was just like you described our mom, you know, she did it all.
She was the consummate housekeeper. Epic. Like, you
know, very, very feisty, too. But anyway,
I remember having this moment,

(56:14):
like, being on stage, just learning grandma had passed away. And
I'm sitting here talking about how my mom took me on paper routes
and how we lived with this kind of poverty consciousness, in
a way, and also thinking that grandma couldn't,
even if she had gotten the call we did, there was
absolutely no way even our mom. Right. Circumstances were

(56:37):
set up in their lives that it just, for their generations, it just
was not feasible. And so you
remember this. We would. We would go talk to grandma, and she would just be
in awe of what we were doing. She could, like, not judging us,
too. She wanted to know. She would want to hear it. She would want to
hear, like, it was entertainment for her. It

(56:59):
was filling her up. And there was no, like, oh, don't you
guys have young kids? Or, why is your husband staying home? And why are
the roles reversed? You know? And she was just
absolutely
pleasantly shocked, I would say.
And so I think that's beautiful, because. And I want to

(57:21):
speak to, like, a little bit of this. Even though you and I have had
to, like, break through this poverty consciousness and
this fight for having more opportunities, I guess, for our
posterity, there was also, you and I hit a
stage where, when we started to grow our businesses, that we

(57:41):
were not just working with women and mentoring women, but their husbands would come
in, and there was just a different
dynamic. Some
husbands were really supportive of their wives doing,
you know, growing her business. And then
there were some who literally thought

(58:04):
we were Satan incarnate, taking their wife away
from the home. And it was a
very threatening. Yeah, we were
threatening the. The ecosystem of their
household, even though. They knew their wife was being lit up,
that their income was increasing, that she was getting

(58:26):
healthier. There's a point when you start a business
of a wobble, like an imbalance, like chaos, really, that
always precedes creation. Right? It's messy. And
so they'd start to see a little bit of messiness because
mom's now doing a different thing. Right? And they would say, see,
it's wrong. It's creating mess in our home, instead

(58:49):
of allowing this metamorphosis of
something that new, that wants to be birthed or something that wants to evolve. And
so we became, in a lot of respects, the villain, because we were the one
coaching the woman and the wife, and she's stepping into her power, and
she's owning her gifts, and she's. And they were
like, I don't know what to do with this. But I felt like there was

(59:11):
also. I could notice a distinction between
those women who, like, really
stepped into it. There was no. The women that I saw
that were just, like, there was no room for question. Like, they
just stepped into it, and it was not asking for permission of it.
It was not a, um. There was a difference between

(59:33):
those that I felt like they did every. They did
everything to pick, you know, to. To, like, be worthy of
being able to do this. So, like, they, like, weren't letting any.
Yeah. They were, you know, almost apologetic with their
kids and their husband, and that just created more resentment I found
with their kids and their husband when she did have to leave her

(59:55):
versus, like, when it was just, like, when they spoke
life into their business to
their family. Like, this is what I'm doing.
I'm loving it. This is what is lighting me up. This is what,
like, that's where I felt real difference,
totally, how those dynamics shaked out, because when I

(01:00:17):
showed up, in the sense of, like, for the woman
as, like, her, like, the savior, to kind of help back her
up and, like, you know, speak to my husband and help him see how good
this was, that never worked out versus.
Empowering her to advocate for herself to her husband. Yeah.
It's like you're only reflecting back to that person you're mentoring, what they

(01:00:40):
want, what they told you they wanted, and they can't always
advocate for that in some partnerships, but they could advocate for us. They could
tell us, but they didn't feel that safety. And I would say that was probably
not the norm. I would say most of the time that husband's like, you go,
girl. This is great. Another thing that you and I both noticed is that when
we started teaching classes, and our classes were sometimes small and sometimes they were huge,

(01:01:02):
and sometimes we were on stage in front of thousands, but men would
just study us. Like, there is a woman
teaching me something, and I'm. You know, at
the risk of not. I'm making a very generalized statement. I'm making a very blanket
statement. But there were some men. You could feel it. Some
that had, like, you could point them out. They'd be in the audience.

(01:01:24):
Their hands, their arms would be crossed like this.
There'd be kind of, like, a frown or sometimes like, a
question, like an inquisitive, like.
And honestly, I got to the point. I started calling it just skeptical
husband syndrome. Like, I got to
the point where I actually looked forward to it and challenged because their walls

(01:01:46):
would come down. But it was very interesting to
see again. It was, you know, I'd like to
think, you know, part of what they feel their
role in the family is protector and is right. And,
like, so when there's, like, this threat
coming in, that is, again, disrupting.

(01:02:08):
Wait. I had a pretty good thing going in my house till you showed up
and started talking about emotions. And it's like they. When they
see, when they're white, because the biggest thing that I have loved
about this business has really been the
awakening that happens within the
women. And when they actually see

(01:02:29):
how that happening, they realize, like, oh, I
didn't know I wanted this until I'm seeing this happen. Like, I didn't know what
I was missing. Yeah. Gift it really was to
the, the whole family and for the children to see their.
I remember you and I talking about this on stage two of how
your children do not want to be the reason, they don't want to

(01:02:51):
be the excuse why you're not able to.
And I know we both have seen that with our families and our children.
Like, in fact, my oldest daughter,
Kennedy, you know, she was, she's taking these
college credits in high school, and it's the family sciences,

(01:03:13):
whatever curriculum and class. And I just remember how
often she would come home and she'd be like, you guys aren't even on the
spectrum of a normal, typical,
you know, family dynamics. And she said,
but she even recognizes, like, how,
you know, that disparity and what has been that cultural

(01:03:36):
norm was not serving women. And she has seen
that play out and has seen it by example of what I've done
with it, that it's helped her, and she's brought that up in classes,
and it's just so great. It's so great to
see. Yeah. I love
how one of the deepest things I've learned about

(01:03:58):
being a mom coming on 30 years being a mom, is
that your children, and I heard somebody say this before, but your children
are watching the show, not listening to the lecture
they're seeing is, you know, the greatest
gift we offer our children is our own happiness and our own fulfillment,
not the other way around. There's a season where you have to, like,

(01:04:20):
breastfeed and be all with them and whatever. And that's, that's, there's a
season for that where they're co regulating their nervous system with you
and whatever, but there comes a point where they can
see or feel, more
importantly, this disparity between you
showing up and appearing to be happy or fulfilled

(01:04:42):
or convincing yourself that you are, but yet
there's a deep emptiness, and children feel that, and they feel the
projection on them to fill themselves
up. And so they then, and this isn't even
conscious for them, but they start to, like,
question, or what am I going

(01:05:04):
to do when I'm a mom? Or what am I going to do when I'm
a parent? Or, you know, to not feel this way
or show up this way? And then they feel responsible for your pain and it
just becomes this mother martyr weird dynamic.
My daughter Savannah, who was ten when I started
my business building adventures, is now getting her

(01:05:24):
psychology degree. And
just like you were talking about with Kennedy, she's got some
fire around advocating for women and
not just having women be defined by their roles, but
by who they are and how they move and live and
breathe. And so we just don't know the repercussions

(01:05:46):
generationally when we break that sort of mother martyr
or we break that, you could say the
patriarchal hold of the cultural, you know, like, what a woman
should or should not do or whatever. And I
also, I also want to say, too, that,
you know, when you and I, we've been

(01:06:08):
mentoring a lot of women over the years, and
we've gotten to the point, I feel like, where we can tell when somebody is
either, like, dipping their toe and sort of like, feeling the water, even though they
feel this calling, okay, even though it's rising in them and they're feeling,
yes, yes, yes,
there's resistance, not just of what we just

(01:06:32):
spoke to, but their belief in themselves.
And so, like, you're saying the children, they don't want to be the reason you
can hide behind your children in a lot of ways and say, well, my child's
having a hard time right now, and I'm not diminishing that because sometimes you do
have to take. I've taken huge pauses. Both you and I have adopted
children and put our businesses on hold after this,

(01:06:54):
you know, after we had built these businesses. I'm not saying that.
Yeah, I'm seeing, like, that resistance inside of, like,
imposter syndrome and not knowing if
I have what it takes to see this through. And I've had all these patterns
in the past of starting and stopping, and there's just so many things that can
come up that they've associated with a woman standing in her power

(01:07:16):
or sharing her truth or moving into
humanity in a bigger space with her gifts. Like, there's so much that can come
up because of the programming from our culture. So
as we kind of round this out with what we've learned, I think in
a higher level now because we've had, what, like, 14 years of doing
this now, and we've seen a big

(01:07:39):
learning curve. I think
one of the biggest things that I've learned, and I want to speak to the
burnout, but aside from the burnout, one of the bit of
avoiding burnout and why I got into the burnout, but one of the biggest things
I've learned is it's less important what you choose
as your pathway and more important, in how you do

(01:08:00):
it. So if something's calling you and you're in
resistance, you're saying, no, no, no, no. And it keeps, it'll keep showing up and
it'll come cloaked in different forms. It'll eventually keep trying to find you and find
you. And then when you say, yes, one of the
best pieces of advice I got early on is start before you're ready, which flies
in the face of like, oh, be prepared and whatever. But for me,

(01:08:22):
I needed that advice. That stuck because I
had this perfectionism going. Like, I don't know enough, I don't know enough about holistic
science and whatever, but I was in, I was being schooled in a higher
way. And so again, it
matters less what you do as your mechanism,
and it's more important how you're doing it,

(01:08:45):
how you're showing up. Are you all in? Are you
open? Are you teachable? Are you still
learning and evolving and growing? Are you in it? You know, I'm
less concerned now with being a teacher as much as a guide and guiding
people back into their own knowing. So what would you
say that you've seen as a major resistance for someone to be like?

(01:09:07):
Yep, there's a yes, they feel, but then they
have to move to an action and that's where the gap happens. I feel like
there's like a little, you know, a little space there,
I think. I mean, like you said, like we've been mentoring women for
so long, and I think you were coaching before then.
And then I started getting into

(01:09:29):
coaching, you know, a few years into doing this
business, I was realizing how much I really loved
moving women into that. Like you said, guiding them to those
breakthroughs, to those. And I think for me, like, the
biggest thing that I've noticed after all the coaching that I've done,
you know, inside the business and outside, like, I have coached

(01:09:53):
women who, some of them were CEO's and
owners of their businesses and some are
employees that are wanting to further their career. That
whole spectrum, the biggest thing that I find is that
they hit up to their belief systems about
themselves and upper limit. Like gay Hendricks talks about in the. Big

(01:10:16):
leap, everyone reaches their different
things at different points. And for some, when they get
that it, even though it's like they want to go through and they
want their life to look different and they know and they're feeling called to
do this, that
unknownness, like really

(01:10:36):
stepping into the unknown and, and really
it's a lot scarier for people than it is to just
fall back. Even though it's. They hate their current state, it's just
easy for them to fall back into what they know. At least
they know what this feels like. At least they're like,
there's a payoff. There's a payoff for staying in a certain

(01:11:00):
frequency of comfort. Yeah.
And we're, I think, now on the earth, like,
I mean, 14 years ago. Yeah, but now the polarization,
the uncertainty, like you're saying, the unknown, everything's ramping
up. I feel like, because everyone is
also, like, trauma has surfaced so much in the last few years, people's

(01:11:22):
repressed trauma is coming up, like, you know, generational stuff
that has been happening. It. There's a. I would say, like a
lower threshold of what people feel safe to step into the unknown
with. Yeah. So for me, I feel like really
regulating the nervous system is like, key.
Like, when this feels

(01:11:44):
safe, when, like, I can regulate
this terrain and have safety in my
body, I can make bolder moves, I
can be a little more courageous. But if I'm just
grappling in survival and I am feeling like my nervous system
is not, like, how can anyone think that they can

(01:12:06):
go and take that? And you and I have
partnered deeper with the emotional work over the years of,
you know, helping people with deep emotional release. We've become trauma informed.
Like, there's so much that's evolved for us in this work. And, you know, you
and I have partnered with a couple of other women to start a coaching certification
for people to redo deep release with essential oils and aromatherapy and

(01:12:29):
visualization and declaration and the take home
for me. And this, as you were talking about nervous system regulation, this is
what occurred to me. Like, my research is focused on the senses and how their
poor portals of awakening
and there are feel good portals,
but accessing them is really, really important. Like accessing

(01:12:51):
your senses so that you feel more alive, so
that not only are you grounded and calm and not in fight or flight
that you're talking about, but that you're actually coming into
space of alignment with nature and the rhythms and cycles of nature.
And that moves me into what we're.
Well, it's not in the total scope of this discussion, but you and I are

(01:13:13):
doing a webinar on sort of what it means to have a
regenerative business model, what it means to be
embodied in the feminine way versus the masculine paradigm of go,
go, go and push and set all these goals and check this off your list
and all these things we've lived the mask, we did that
because that's all we had. We had sales trainings and different and, you know, and

(01:13:34):
I think you and I had even talked about before that I couldn't even use
the word, okay, this is
2010.
I couldn't even use the word business because I had a negative
association with it. So I would tell people I'm starting a movement or I'm starting
a ministry. They're like, no, I'm not starting my own church. I just couldn't
say, it's my business. And even the word sales,

(01:13:57):
I had to replace that word because there was just so much charge around it
with the masculine and the corporate and that, you know,
so much around, like, that patriarchal model of, you
know, anyway, so I've evolved
and come to peace with what I'm doing, and I've named
it what I'm naming it. But the mechanism, like you said, we had the

(01:14:20):
stigma of network marketing, and you and I both have other business
outside of, you know, that. But,
but just to ground people into, like, there's a different way
to grow your business, no matter what mechanism or what path or what
entrepreneurial path you take or, you know, what business you want to start or if
you're already, you know, in a job you love, whatever, it's,

(01:14:43):
how do you anchor your senses?
How do you ground your body? How do you calm
your nervous system? How do you get clarity from your
heart? All of these things. We didn't start a really, like, we didn't
really start that way. We really did
learn through the last 14 years of

(01:15:06):
ebbing and flowing into what that looks
like. And I really do feel that
there is a huge
calling out that women are having of,
like, please help me know
how I can truly grow a business

(01:15:28):
alongside being a mother because. Or
alongside having
relationships alongside, like,
no one asks a man when they gets a new great job
who's taking, is this going to balance? Nobody ever says, hey, how are you going
to balance your work and your career with your family?

(01:15:48):
Like, got it.
That's the inside inquiry happening all the time either
way. And so for me, like,
really understanding that this is such
a bespoke
process for each one of us to really

(01:16:10):
find our own rhythm, to really.
But you have to explore it like you have. And I think
that's where you and I, like, as I felt into
some of our gifts, is we're kind of like activator
people. Like, we just move to action and figure it out on the run.
And I want to respect that. There are some people who are wired a little

(01:16:32):
bit more, you know, they're a little bit more careful, and it's their
gift. It's not a weakness. It's their gift. Like, they really have
to, to kind of see the overall view, and they have to
zoom in and out, and they have to experiment and dip in and come back
and, and we've seen women evolve that way, too. It's taken them a little bit
longer, but I really respect that. Everyone has their

(01:16:53):
own process for. For finding. Sometimes when you get a no, it's
a not right now, and sometimes you get a yes.
It's not a forever yes, it's a right now yes.
And so I. That's why I have moved less
into, like, do it my way. I mean, there's some universal
principles that you and I both share that are going to work for everyone. Yeah,

(01:17:15):
there's definitely respect.
But for the most part, like, let me say this,
too. Like, you know, with the emotional work and
things that I've done with the oils, like, in 2020, the
therapists were coming to me and asking
me how to use the oils with their clients because

(01:17:37):
they were, you know, first of all, leaving in droves. They were
so burnt out, these therapists, from, you know, you have the pandemic,
but then you have the. That
happened after that. And I was so
flabbergasted and, you know, that that's kind of
what spew this coaching certification that you and I have done. But

(01:17:58):
I'm saying that because these are people who have the tools
and the skills, these therapists. Right. Yeah. They
didn't know, like, what to do to even to,
you know, help themselves or help their clients, and they're
seeing the value in a tangible
tool in that way. And so I'm bringing that up

(01:18:20):
because I feel like it's not just one thing. It's not just the
tangible tools we'll be talking about. It's not just
nervous system regulation. It's not. It's different for
each person. Yeah. When you begin
to have these options available to
you and presented in a way that you can grab them in

(01:18:42):
the way that works for you, this is where the magic
happens, and this is where the breakthroughs are happening, and this is where women
we're seeing and are attracting. I mean, now we have an eight
figure annual business, right?
I have hundreds of women on my team that are making six and seven

(01:19:03):
figures. This is not where it's
just us. And we're like, you know, well, we've. Seen the tree bear
fruit. We've been in it for the long haul. We're not a flash in the
pan. Get rich quick. Like, we've seen the sustainability of this.
We've also seen the burnout part. And not only in health
and in finances, by the way. Like, income and health, they're very

(01:19:25):
related. Like, why have wealth if you don't have health, et
cetera. But we've seen this, you
know, evolution, I guess, of.
Yeah, yeah. It's just. And there's always, like, we. There's another
thing, like, new level, new devil. Like, it never
ends, you know? And there's, I think, this belief that,

(01:19:46):
you know, once you hit a certain milestone that you've arrived,
and that is not living, that is not growth, that is not
expansion. And so you and I are still in the middle of this
evolution of discovery for ourselves. And
I think what we're wanting to do is really lock arms with
some other people that want to be in that discovery with us.

(01:20:09):
And what we're doing with this webinar is really
showcasing, like, what a true regenerative business
look like in this. In this frame of a Doterra
business, because we have so many people asking us all the
time. I get it a lot, especially, like, eight kids.
You have your six figure coaching business, and you have this

(01:20:32):
business and your doter, like, how are you. How are you
possibly doing this? And,
like, I know it goes into all the things we just talked
about today. There is so much
coming from that calling, your unique calling, your unique
purpose, mixed with

(01:20:53):
your unique
blueprint for your own business model. Like, that's
what exploring. That's what we're coming in. That's what
we're. Yeah, we've learned. We bristle
when we hear different rah rah speeches about sales and different things,
because we've walked through that, and we know

(01:21:15):
what resonates, what's authentic and what is not. We
know that, like you said with that restorative, regenerative business
model, that there are feminine based business principles that
when you wish, we wish. We probably actually, I don't regret that
we didn't know this. Like, I'm glad I walked through that old masculine
paradigm of crush it, kill it, pound it out, hustle culture stuff to get

(01:21:38):
me to this place of, like, the attraction model, the
magnetism, the feminine embodiment, the wisdom, the intuitive. Like, you could
either pick up the phone and call 200 people and have one
person who is just like, oh, my gosh, I've been waiting for you to call
me and talk to me and help me with this. Or you could pick up.
You could spend 15 minutes, pick up the phone, and intuitively call the

(01:22:00):
right person right out of the gate. Right. But we weren't taught, so
I don't regret the old way. It had a lot of value for me
in learning, and I've assimilated a lot of that learning into what
not to do. But I want to close with this, and then we can tell
people where to go to our webinar. And by the way, we'll have all the
details in the show notes for everyone. It's coming up on, what is it? April

(01:22:22):
24. But I want
to kind of round. Out with.
How a woman, let's just say, can
say yes. What does it look
like to say yes to your soul calling? What is
that? What does that look like in your

(01:22:45):
exterior world? And in your interior world, how would you
say. A
yes? Just feels like
activation in my body. Like, I'm.
You know, my body is just as
compelled as my mind to move forward.

(01:23:08):
So, like, a full body, it's just.
It's. I can't help but
move towards it. Right.
Yes. Also feels
scary sometimes, because, again, that unknown element,
and especially being more visible, I mean, we didn't even talk

(01:23:31):
about that, but that's. That was probably the biggest. Yeah.
Visibility. So the.
So, for me, like, an understanding, like, feminine
leadership now, it's like, it's just.
This is part of my human design, too. Like, just. My gut knows, like,

(01:23:52):
it's just a yes. And anytime I
skirt around that, or it's. It just. It clunks.
It clinks. And
so that's the interior. The exterior world. What that looks like
when it's a yes is flow. Like,
I. It's like, you

(01:24:14):
know, I remember when I. When we both said
yes to doterra, even though, again, it was like, we so resisted it. And once
it was like, okay, like, we're all in. I
remember having people literally come to my
door, my front door, and say, katie Payne, if
you're listening to this, this was her saying, like,

(01:24:37):
verbatim, the same things other people, which is like, I don't know what you're doing,
but I feel like I need to be a part of this. So it's just
like, the people started to go, but it was only
when the certainty was there, and it was like, I'm moving
forward. It's like the people start coming in,
the ideas, like, the creativity, the.

(01:25:01):
Those points start to converge. That's
the way that I can say it. I love that. And I would echo
and say, yes. To all of what you're saying. And for me, too,
one of my teachers, Nithya Shanti from India way back
in 2013 or something like that, he showed me something

(01:25:21):
that rocked my world. That
it was a Venn diagram, and it was
four circles, concentric, and then in the middle is the sweet spot,
and here were the four circles. This is like, what, you know, your soul calling
is basically, number one, you're good at it.
Number two, the world needs it.

(01:25:45):
Number three, you love it. And number
four, you get. You can get paid for it. Well, this
is like. This is like high level vocation. This is like
high life's work. And so, for me, resting
into I was, as I look at all things
considered, what flows naturally to me in my gift sequence, my

(01:26:07):
inborn gifts, you could say what I haven't activated yet, that I don't even know
I have a gift in. My soul's bringing me that, to that, right?
And then, like, yep, I can get paid for it. And there's a pathway for
that. The world needs it. You and I could feel the need. I mean, like
we said, it had been a divine setup. We had this family patterning. We had
lost our sister and all our kids, and all the things were going on, and

(01:26:27):
we were, like, hungering for more knowledge. But we were also hungry to help
people and to help our families and ourselves. Mostly, we're all just
trying to help ourselves. That's what's driving this whole dang thing. The whole ship is
being driven by how we want to help ourselves. But then the other piece of
it is that when the world needs it and you're
good at it and you love it and you're passionate about, and all these things

(01:26:48):
converge, that is the magic that,
like, your soul would never lead you to something that you weren't
totally adept at being able to, and you just haven't activated the
gifts yet that are contained in that calling. But when you fully say
yes, they start to come online. Parts of you come online,
right. It doesn't mean there's going to be parts of it you don't like to

(01:27:09):
do. There's going to be parts of it that are very uncomfortable,
that are stretching you. And so, anyway, it's the process
of. For me, it was. I totally, totally resonate
with what you're saying. Like, it's a full body, whoo. Yes. But then it's
also like. And it means I have to do this, and that's hard and scary,
and that doesn't make me light up and that you know, that's like a

(01:27:32):
burden. It feels like a burden, and that's actually where the growth can come
in. Would you not agree? Yeah. Yeah. That. That
state of, like, when you get the yes, that doesn't stay,
like, the whole way. You're not vibing the whole time on it, like, divine
spark. No, it's valleys. And then
start confronting your edges. You then start confronting

(01:27:54):
your limits. And it's only when you're willing
to bust through them that.
So, yeah, I just want to honor us, Robin, because we
are first generation women in business, in our family lines. We are
first generation poverty consciousness breakers in terms of creating, you
know, income and opportunities for our families that

(01:28:16):
way. Our
siblings are all amazing. That's not anything against. They just
have different pathways for their work. We have two brothers that are in alcohol
recovery right now who are doing their own work in
their bodies. That's their calling right now.
Our sister Tanya is recovering from a traumatic brain injury,

(01:28:39):
but she has broken so many walls and so many patterns, and she has
done so much work. So her path is a little different that way, and she's
healing her body.
So, yeah, there's so much around saying
yes and what that looks like and helping. I love to help
women identify what a yes feels like in their body. You mentioned human

(01:29:01):
design. You're studying that. I'm studying gene keys. I'm studying the four
prime gifts that people come into this world with, and that fascinates
me. And this is all part of what's going to go on in our webinar
and what we're going to talk about with moving into that space of embodied feminine
leadership. And we didn't even mention this, and maybe we can close with this, but
that word leader for a woman, yeah.

(01:29:23):
It'S a tricky one. That was not something
I knew I was good at till I was a leader. And
then I realized, I think the
definition of a leader for a woman could be much different than a
leader for a man. I
recognized that truly when I

(01:29:45):
rose up into leadership,
when I. And all for me, the
definition of leadership for me was truly just being a light and a
beacon. It was not telling people what to do and where to go,
and it was simply showing up in my
brilliance and doing

(01:30:06):
exactly what I was lit up to do that just
automatically paved a way in a path for someone to
follow. There were certainly, like, it's mentorship and, you
know, definitely things that I would recommend
and, you know, give
direction, but I have

(01:30:28):
loved and seen how many
women that were like myself that had no idea.
No idea that they had leadership in them
until they were given the opportunity for it. And that
probably my very favorite things about this business
was to recognize that leader in myself, but to

(01:30:50):
truly help other women rise into leadership as well.
Yeah. And even just being a mom is leadership. But it wasn't
framed that way for us, you know, like, and everything is sales, too.
We're always trying to convince people of something because we want something. Right.
Or we want to provide something. Yeah. It's just,
it's just, it is, it is semantics. It is epistemology.

(01:31:12):
It is unlearning what we've learned and
assimilated. And. But thank you, Robin,
for the directions we went in this
conversation. And just for being who you are in my
life and to others shining so bright.
Best business partner ever.

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