July 9, 2025 • 59 mins
What if the real battle for freedom isn't just in Washington — but right in Utah's backyard? In this bold, unfiltered episode, Danielle Walker sits down with Phil Lyman to expose the cracks in the system too many are afraid to face.
Election corruption? They’re naming it.
Government overreach? They’ve lived it.
Faith in action? It’s their fuel.
From jail time to justice reform, Lyman’s story isn’t just about politics — it’s about conviction. Spiritual conviction. Civic courage. And a refusal to be silenced. This is a conversation for anyone who's ever questioned the system… and still dared to believe in change.
“We have to crack this nut open.”
“Everything hidden will come to light.”
“Courage begets courage.”
If you’re tired of hollow promises, broken systems, and overreaching power, this is your episode. It's not just a call to awareness — it’s a call to arms.
Listen in. Wake up. Take your place.
SCRIPTURE OF THE DAY:
The heavens belong to our God; they are his alone, but he has given us the earth and put us in charge. — Psalm 115:16 TPT
ACTION & INFO FROM TODAY'S EPISODE:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to For the Love of Freedom.
I'm your host Danielle Walker.
It's my absolute pleasure to be with you today.
For the Love of Freedom is my new show where we meet guests who are disrupting the statusquo in pursuit of bringing freedom to the world, whether it's political freedom,
spiritual, financial, or some other arena of life.
And today I'm joined by a gentleman who's been at the forefront of the fight for politicalfreedom in Utah, Phil Lyman.
(00:29):
He's been on the state of freedom with Chris and I a number of times during his 2024 racefor governor.
And he's with me today to talk not only about the fight itself, but why he's taken on thecause of freeing the state of Utah from the oppression and tyranny of its own state level
deep state.
And those of you who listening from Louisiana know that ours is alive and well andthriving, unfortunately.
(00:53):
uh
Before we get into it, I always love to bring a scripture of the day to help ground us andto set the tone for the conversation.
And the scripture for today is Psalm chapter 115 verse 16.
And it says, the heavens belong to our God.
They are his alone, but he has given us the earth and put us in charge.
(01:15):
And Phil, I thought that was so appropriate for the show with you because you have nottaken this lying down.
You recognize that we are the hands and feet of God and we have work to do.
He expects us to take dominion over the earth.
He said multiply and subdue the earth, right?
And that's exactly what we're uh trying to do through our various means.
(01:38):
But absolutely, that's something that I see you doing through your just relentless effortsin Utah.
So thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me on again.
It's always so good to talk to you.
So refreshing.
Well, I love that and you are welcome here anytime and on the state of freedom anytimeWe've really enjoyed you and we believe in the work that you're doing in Utah.
(02:02):
It's been so crazy to see ah Your story I was talking to my parents about it last nightand I was just reminding them, know a little bit about it and it was just like it's it's
almost like the people who ah Who are in?
the grownups in charge of Utah, you know, if we want to talk about it that way, uh seemedto just be like, well, yeah, okay.
(02:27):
I know you think you won and I know the numbers actually say that you won, but you didn'treally win.
And the goalpost kept moving and changing the whole entire way.
And the rules kept changing to suit the people in pursuit of power.
And that is just uh bizarre and lame and
(02:48):
I mean, un-American.
from the running for the governor's spot.
I was a legislator for six years before that.
And I told people, I'm not upset about the elections because I lost the governor's race.
I ran for the governor because I was upset about the corruption in the elections.
And all we did was confirm all of these issues.
(03:10):
you know, early on, there's two ways to get on the primary ballot as a Republican.
One is through the convention and the other is by gathering signatures.
Well, I won the convention with almost 70%, um which is, you know, unprecedented,especially against an incumbent governor.
um Spencer Cox is really, really unpopular, uses his pronouns, joined the climate core,and, know, implemented DEI, did all these things over the four years that I was observing.
(03:39):
And I thought there's no way that Utah will elect this person.
um And certainly that was born out at the convention, but then he got his...
uh
And he said, well, I'm on the primary ballot because I got signatures.
And any other candidate that has signatures, you could just call up and say, I review ifyou're his opponent, can I review the signature packets?
(04:00):
It's like, yeah, come in Tuesday at two o'clock and spend as much time as you want and youcan review the signature packets.
You can't take photocopies.
uh You can't take photocopies of people's actual signatures, whatever, but you can reviewthose.
Yeah.
And so we asked for that with Spencer Cox and the answer for us was no, you can't look atthose signatures.
(04:23):
In fact, how dare you even suggest that you could come in and look at people's privateinformation.
That's the big thing.
So I said, well, there's only one reason not to let us look at the signatures is becauseyou don't have them.
And so I made that statement early on before the primary election and uh
And of course, that came out with all these op-eds from the Lieutenant Governor's office.
(04:45):
What a conspiracy theorist I am.
I said, well, it's easy to disprove me.
Until you can demonstrate otherwise, I'll just assume you don't have your signatures.
then we found out there were criminal charges on some of the signature gatherers inanother part of the state.
But all the statewide races were done by a single clerk.
(05:07):
So I said, well, you've got another clerk here that's
you know, look through the signature packets of this individual, of another individual andfound a bunch of fraudulent signatures.
The same guy that was gathering for him was also gathering for Spencer Cox from a CPA.
for me, it's like, oh, you've got two people that essentially were looking at the samework and one's coming up with this answer.
(05:30):
Let's see what the statewide race came up with.
And so we did the grammar request.
We went to court.
We did all of these things, you know, and of course the courts throw it out.
They're all pointed by Governor Cox and, and,
And, the same company also gathered signatures for the attorney general and for JohnCurtis, the senator.
And I don't question whether they got their signatures.
(05:52):
But I contacted, I said, you you guys should be asking for an audit because it's the samecompany.
And lo and behold, they did kind of come out and say, you know, we kind of demand that oursignatures be verified and remove this, this cloud.
So they did, they, they audited the signatures and.
What they came back with was that Spencer Cox didn't get enough signatures.
(06:13):
um He didn't have his signatures.
And that should mean something.
If nothing else, it should mean that they go back and say, Phil, we're sorry we drug youthrough the mud over this.
m And of course, Spencer Cox is saying, well, we believed we had our signatures.
We relied on the information.
(06:35):
And it's like, well, you're in charge of that whole process.
The lieutenant governor is in charge of this.
And you go back and say, about these emails clear back in March of 2024 um saying that youdidn't have enough signatures that you overlook that.
then, then it turns in from a, from a whatever, a competence issue into a full-fledged uhcoverup and corruption.
(06:59):
And I think people deserve to know if that's the case, I don't expect that the legislatureis going to, you know, impeach or remove governor Cox, but people do need to know.
it's.
And it's really has turned into a kind of a movement here in Utah of why do we allow suchuh corruption?
know, the very perpetrator, the very person who's putting his name on the ballot is theone who's verifying the signatures and overseeing the signature process.
(07:29):
even for the Lieutenant Governor, which is a single race in Utah, we don't have aSecretary of State.
So they run on ticket.
Yeah.
And the governor could...
a ticket and the lieutenant governor acts as the secretary of state does in most otherstates?
Wow.
So you say, well, can we look at voter lists?
The lieutenant governor says, no, you may not look at voter lists.
(07:50):
Can we look at the CASFA record?
Lieutenant governor, no.
Who prints the ballots?
Lieutenant governor.
Who verifies the results of the election?
Lieutenant governor.
Who verifies the signatures?
It's like, OK, this person can do anything they want.
And there's nothing you can do about it.
You can't look at it.
You can't.
(08:10):
do anything.
So then you have to say, would this Lieutenant Governor cheat?
we expected as citizens to rely just 100 % on the integrity of the Lieutenant Governor?
And there's some people that would say, yes, that's good enough.
That's what we want.
But for me, I say, well, let's verify.
Let's just verify.
And again, as a CPA, I look at it say, well, there's a few things we could do to verifythese things.
(08:34):
But every time you do something, every time you run a statistical report or something likethat, the results come back.
you know, way, way off.
It's like from a, a statistical analysis, you'd say, well, this is a huge irregularity,almost a statistical impossibility.
Let's have an explanation.
And the only response you get to saying, can we get an explanation is, know, to call namesand call your conspiracy theorists.
(08:58):
And, and for me at this point, that's just like music to my ears, because it means it'svalidation.
Yeah, absolutely.
Now you got involved in the gubernatorial race, you said, or you ran for governor becauseof uh your belief in corruption in the elections.
But if we take it back, you've been involved in politics in Utah for a long time.
(09:20):
You've been a local, um not just activist, but uh a local public servant.
What got you involved in supporting your communities in that way?
Yes.
So in 2009, Obama had just taken office and by June of 2009, there was a massive raid onmy community.
I live in a small little town, very remote little southeastern town in Utah.
(09:46):
And there was a huge raid, 300 federal agents, 26 families whose lives were reallyupended.
And I watched that happen and it was all under the auspice of an artifacts ring.
um But you find out that
underlying all of that was a desire to lock up the resources in this area where theuranium rich area was where a bunch of the uranium one claims were that Hillary Clinton,
(10:10):
you know, a year later sold to Russia.
So you see all this stuff in the real question.
real quickly, the artifacts ring, that would be like saying that people are trafficking inartifacts that are supposed to be, okay.
Native American artifacts.
And we're also in phenomenal area of the world if a person wants to look at the Anasaziruins and um find things.
(10:36):
It's really a very rich area.
So they're not wrong about this being a very rich area.
They are wrong about locals looting and taking stuff.
The universities and the museums have done way, way more.
of that than the locals.
We really have an appreciation for it and a respect for it.
So the whole premise is really offensive to start with, but that's what the federalgovernment and especially the agencies do, the executive branch, is they create a crisis
(11:03):
to which they are the solution and then they come in with a heavy hand.
And it'd be one thing if they're saying, you we've got to stop the artifacts looting, butwhat it was was we've got to lock up the resources of that area and sell the uranium to
Russia.
So Frank Giustra, Canadian financier comes in and he brokers the deal between the ClintonFoundation, Uranium One, and Putin to buy out Uranium One.
(11:31):
made a billion dollar profit on the deal, turned around and donated $110 million to theClinton Foundation.
And then a couple of years later, Russia sold those uranium claims back to another companyfor pennies on the dollar for what they paid for it.
So then you're going like, well,
What was this all about?
But Putin at the time was buying uh assets in Kazakhstan and Africa and Australia and allover the world.
(11:58):
He really had a stated purpose to corner and own the nuclear um energy sector by takingall the uranium.
And of course, Hillary Clinton was all in on that deal.
And most people didn't see that.
I was sitting at the table with
And this is as account.
(12:18):
So I ran for County Commissioner after this raid.
And in 2010, I was sitting at a table with a bunch of the uranium companies because wewere dealing with President Barack Obama's removal of a bunch of uranium property.
they came and said,
he federalized it?
Is that what happened?
Yeah, so it's all on federal land.
(12:39):
It's all on public land.
em mean, some of it's state land, some of it's private, but for the most part, theseassets are sitting out on this vast federal estate, which has always had, em you know, the
mining claims were legitimate mining claims.
You can't remove those.
So he was proposing to shut down what we call the Arizona Strip, which is a real rich areain Utah and Arizona right on the border.
(13:04):
And one of the companies, so I'm sitting down at lunch and it was Uranium One and theywere a big player and they said, well, we're not going to be coming anymore because we
sold the company.
I said, you sold the company?
they said, yeah, to Russia.
And I was like, waiting for the punchline.
You've got to be kidding me.
And they said, no, and Hillary Clinton brokered the deal and now I'm really waiting forthe punchline.
(13:26):
And then you read in the papers afterwards that that's exactly what happened.
But I'm talking to the guys on the CEOs and the
executives of Uranium One and they were, I think they were as surprised as anybody else.
Number one, that they were able to sell that company for so much money.
And number two, that it was Hillary Clinton that was brokering the deal.
(13:46):
for them, was, you can't say no to the money that was being thrown around.
Anyway, in a nutshell, what I looked at, and I said, why does government make suchhorrible policies that hurt the very people that they were?
elected to serve, you know?
And so where's the representative form of government that we really, really cherish inAmerica?
(14:13):
The idea that if someone can make a decision that is gonna hurt their neighbors, then thatperson is given authority to make that decision by being elected.
And um so you get in and you start looking and you find out, as a county commissioner, Ifind out that there's a lot of pressure coming from the...
(14:33):
globalist interests, the Marxist interests, the World Economic Forum, the United Nations,all of these policies, they're drafting legislation, they're pushing it through the
National Governors Association or whatever, all the way down through the legislatures.
And so you see this in action and uh the money that is exchanged with it.
(14:54):
And you start to realize that you've got people on one hand who are honest.
trying to figure out why everything is going against them.
And on the other hand, you got literally pirates who are running the show and the media isbehind them.
The judges are in on it.
It's a huge, it doesn't matter if they're Democrats, Republicans, a federal state, youknow, all this idea of balance of powers and federalism and all that.
(15:22):
It just goes out the window because you're dealing with people who are in on the take.
They're just part of it and they can see it.
And they know that
that they are going to remain in power because they have certain things locked up.
So all roads lead back to the election.
It's like, well, maybe we could have an election and remove some of those people frompower.
(15:43):
And to me, Governor Cox was the quintessential example of a governor who was makingreally, really bad decisions for his state and should be challenged.
so it was an easy decision.
to challenge him and everything is, I feel very inspired and directed uh spiritually whenI make certain decisions.
(16:07):
And this has been one of those that from the very beginning has felt right.
as uh I just opened up so many, shine the light in so many dark places.
Yeah, well, you certainly have.
as you were talking, I was reminded today of ah Jeffrey Epstein's claim that he co-foundedthe Clinton Foundation.
(16:34):
So it'll be very interesting when this stuff all really truly unravels ah in a meaningful,justice-driven way to see how far ah down all that is connected.
Because of course,
very few of us believe what, I don't know what um Cash Patel and Pam Bondi's reasons areand Dan Bongino for trying to tell us that there was no client list.
(17:01):
is uh no, Epstein didn't kill himself, all these things.
But I don't buy that for one hot second.
Yeah, I told somebody the other day, said, you know, in matters of espionage, you'll neverknow the truth.
I do agree with that to some extent, but at the same time, know, free people, people whoare free in their soul and in their heart and who really feel it, it's like you can't
(17:27):
overpower that.
You can't take that away from them.
um even though they may feel like resistance is ultimately futile, um they still
They still don't have a choice other than to resist tyranny and resist lies and to tellthe truth.
um you know, as long as that's in place, uh government is going to have a hard timewinning that battle.
(17:52):
Yeah, well, I pray that this is for some other purpose and not um to further lie to theAmerican people in a bold, you know, in a bald faced way.
But I guess, I guess time will tell.
I certainly hope some of those people are being rolled up and it's just needs to be keptquiet.
(18:14):
um Phil.
I had first of all, had no idea that you had any connection to Uranium One.
That's just so fascinating.
And it really puts a color on all the things you've seen because whenever you've seen thatlevel of corruption that up close and personal, you just can't help but know that that's
(18:40):
not the only place it is.
um
yeah.
we have something in common that I learned about today, which is I spent a lot of timetraveling through Africa.
I didn't realize that you did your mission in South Africa.
Yeah.
So I – oh my gosh, beautiful place, beautiful people.
It's just so wonderful.
(19:02):
But I was a little Pollyanna in my time traveling through Africa in my 20s and 30s.
And over time, I started really realizing, oh, that – you know, when people say Africa iscorrupt, they're not.
wrong.
But what was worse was when I came back home and finally woke up and realized we're justas bad.
(19:25):
Actually, we're worse because in some ways, many countries in Africa have a free press andwe don't have any, any, any semblance of a free press other than people like myself,
people, you know, who are, who have basically popped up since 2020.
So
Anyway, I just wanted to make that connection because corruption is everywhere.
(19:48):
It's a global epidemic.
If it's at your doorstep, you have to know that it's basically at everyone's.
Well, I mean, is the topic of most of literature from the very beginning through Rome islike, do you have the structure that you want on the one hand without it being corrupted?
(20:11):
So the Romans and the Republican form of government that they came up with and then thefounding fathers obviously were really keenly aware of the problems that come from
tyrants.
And they tried to create a, and that's what's so beautiful about America.
It's like the one time you can go back and say, they took on power, they challenged powerat the highest level and they succeeded and they created something that changed the whole
(20:40):
face of humanity.
And it's too important to um watch it, to watch it be corrupted and start to lose that.
But clearly if people could,
take control of the planet, they would do it.
And they would take control of the resources and the water and the people and the food,the health care, the education, our kids.
(21:01):
And that's one of the things I said on the campaign trail.
I said, you know, these people are not coming for your money.
They have all the money in the world.
They're coming for your children.
they want to indoctrinate them.
want to, you know, your children are going to see the world in a very different light thanthe way we see it, especially, you know, people that are
(21:21):
believers believe in God, believe in uh the divine destiny of the soul and individualityand all those things.
That is contrary to what the globalists want.
They do not want individual thinkers.
They want collective thought.
You're so right.
And on that point of they're not coming for your money, they already have.
(21:43):
You know, if you believe that all taxation is theft, they have already robbed us blindevery which way from Sunday.
Yeah, mean, inflation is the the hugest tax that we face and we have no control over that.
They can just go and print, you know, another trillion dollars, you know, add another fivetrillion dollars to the to the deficit.
(22:04):
back in 2000, it was around 2006.
I was looking at the deficit and I can't remember exactly where I was at was like an eighttrillion dollars.
And I did the math and I thought we have we have reached the point of no return.
There is no recovery from this massive, massive
amount of debt and now we're pushing 40 trillion and I'm at the point now, like, I don'tknow, I guess it's irrelevant.
(22:28):
I guess they can push that to an unlimited amount.
don't know what the, no one ever plans on paying this off.
And it's really a frightening proposition for America.
the other thing you say is, well, is America $40 trillion in debt because we don't haveresources or is it because we don't have uh innovation?
(22:50):
people that are willing to work is like there's only one reason for America to be in debtto anybody and that's because of the plunder.
That's just, it's a system.
It's designed to rob not only Americans, but the entire world of the wealth and to put itin the pockets of fewer and fewer people.
And you watch that happen.
(23:11):
Yeah, you're so right.
have this, I have kind of an inkling of a theory.
So you as a CPA would have a better, especially someone who has um worked in thegovernment.
But my inkling of a theory is that we don't ever actually need to pay taxes.
Like there's no reason American people should pay taxes because of the resources that wehave at our fingertips.
(23:37):
Instead, we could have fee based services.
So you only pay for what you get.
At a maximum but you we could also I mean the government could be producing stuff or wecould be producing stuff that That covers the cost.
I mean look at look at Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia basically didn't exist before 1970whenever we went in and taught them how to get oil out of the ground and now all of those
(24:03):
all of the people of Saudi Arabia They have a they have a sovereign wealth fund
They don't have to pay for their beautiful roads.
They don't have to pay for their beautiful bridges.
They just simply get to enjoy the fruit of the land.
Imagine that.
yeah.
Ours is an income redistribution system.
(24:23):
It's got very little to do with paying for things.
I mean, it goes back to Adam Smith and the free market conversations.
And uh you're absolutely right.
And I was pushing for that in Utah also with during the governor's race.
I said, we don't need an income tax.
We can pay for it.
We can pay our bills with a severance tax, which is the minerals.
(24:43):
um
Now, it would be harder in Utah than it is in, Alaska, where you've got 10 times the areaand a tenth of the population.
But we have massive, massive resources.
And the beautiful thing about moving to a severance tax or a minerals-based tax is now themotivation for governments is to produce instead of to stop production.
(25:08):
And that's what we see now is like, it all down, shut down, blow up your...
your energy plant, get rid of all of your mines, get rid of all of your production, andjust raise people's taxes in em perpetuity.
it's in, yeah, that gets to a point where at some point somebody's got to producesomething.
(25:30):
And if they don't, then they're nothing but slaves.
And that is the, that's, I think we're there.
I would say America is there.
I think we are.
absolutely think we are.
What do you think?
Have you been uh dwelling on it all?
ah Elon Musk and this new America party thing?
Have you given that any thought?
(25:53):
Yeah, lots of contemplation about that.
ah The GOP has abandoned us.
The faithful platform Republicans have really felt abandoned.
um Yet I like the platform of the GOP and I don't see a viable, I shouldn't say I don'tsee a viable, the future of a viable candidate coming out of a
(26:23):
a new party like that is a ways down the road.
um And I'm not sure that Elon Musk is the right person to launch that.
em Just ideologically, puts a few people, and really what it does is it really targetsmore Republicans than just American uh truth lovers.
(26:48):
uh But I mean, I applaud his effort.
I applaud what he's doing.
Yeah, I'm a libertarian at heart and I would, I always tell people, said, it's, it's anoxymoron to say that, know, to join the libertarian parties, because, because libertarians
don't join parties.
They're, they're independent, you know?
So you can be a libertarian and be a Republican.
I, but to join the libertarian party, I mean, I love Ross Burrough.
(27:11):
I, know, he's really one of my favorite people.
And we saw what happened with, you know, with his, his runs for, for office and,
And then things like that are really divided the parties.
Yeah, part of me wonders if this is just part of a distraction campaign for somethingelse.
feel like a...
(27:34):
Yeah.
big, beautiful bill, but I thought the only person that would call it that is Trump.
And the only reason we call that is to like pay no attention to what is actually going onin the Middle East or something.
Or, you know, let's focus on this.
It's really interesting.
I think it's smart.
I think it's strategic.
I think it's clever, but I, yeah, I feel the same way about so much of what's happeningthat it feels more like a Psyop.
(27:57):
Yeah, it does feel like a sire.
Part of what I was wondering or just kind of tinkering with is this idea that once theAmerican public really realizes what the Uniparty has done and how depraved and corrupt so
many of these people are on both sides of the quote unquote aisle, the parties are goingto have to collapse.
(28:22):
And in some way you could say this is a place for them to go.
But I think
If we really think about an America party, forget Elon Musk, forget his little Indian guythat set up the thing.
I mean, people should not have a political party.
I don't really believe in political parties.
(28:44):
They're corporations.
They serve the interests of whoever holds the purse.
And I think people need to run on their own merit, on their own value systems.
and not clutch at whatever they think the constituents of the given district or area are.
know, like I come from a very conservative area.
(29:05):
And so we have a tremendous number of rhinos here because everyone just wears the redbadge like, you know, so that they can get elected.
And as soon as they get elected, they do whatever they want.
So I did run for the state party chair.
And again, it was more just a way to keep the wills churning on exposing corruption.
(29:26):
And it was very, very effective.
I gave a speech at convention.
And it was one of those times when I felt so compelled to say some things that you wouldnever typically hear at a convention.
And um you'll appreciate it because you're
(29:46):
you know, a religious minded person, but I stood up and I said, after Jesus taught theparable of the sower and just mentioning the word Jesus in a political, like, was like an
audible gasp.
My wife said, there was an audible gasp when you said the name Jesus and there's power inthat name.
And I tried to explain it in like the most common language, but the story was after hetaught that parable of the sower, his disciples came and says, why do you teach him
(30:15):
parables?
And I'll get to the point of this.
he said, well, he said, Isaiah prophesied that people would have eyes that wouldn't seeand ears that wouldn't hear, hearts that wouldn't feel.
But when I teach in parables, there might be some people that hear that who will see withtheir eyes, who will hear with their ears, will feel with their hearts and will be
converted and I can heal them.
(30:37):
And I told that story.
But the point of that is like,
Do you feel it with your heart or are you just reading, you know, and whether it's freedomor anything else, like we've got all the stuff written in the constitution and the people
have it memorized.
They memorize the Declaration of Independence, but it's like, do they really feel it?
my point was, you know, the GOP is so fractured in Utah that um what's going to unify usis that I love freedom just like you love freedom.
(31:04):
And whether you're Democrat or, you know, wherever you're at on the political spectrum,freedom,
means freedom, And if we feel that, then we act differently than if it's all just politicsand everything is politics.
so I'm with you on that.
think at some point, I think our love of country, our love of family and society and foreach other transcends the political fighting that's going on.
(31:33):
I don't know how close we are to that actually happening, but I really felt that.
felt.
And it was funny because Jesus said that uh so many people, hear those parables and theydon't know what he's even talking about.
It's just mass confusion.
And after the convention, had people come up, some members of my faith, some members of myfaith, and said, wow, I never expected to feel the Holy Spirit at a political convention.
(32:07):
That was amazing.
And other people who were pious, religious people that said, Lyman's speech was a wordsalad, was pure gibberish.
And I thought, bravo.
I watched it happen.
And I felt it too.
(32:27):
There's 4,000 people there.
And I looked around that room and I thought, some of you are going to get this and some ofyou aren't.
But um it's time.
It's time for people to...
Yeah, to put aside the party stuff in favor of their heart, know, the love of America.
whether that happens, I guess it does for some of us.
(32:51):
And that's probably the best.
I mean, that's probably God's plan.
Some will and some won't.
that's true.
That's true.
I mean, he wills that we all would, but I guess, you know, not all are willing.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, I didn't finish with the...
So I did go to jail after the, you know, standing up for the...
(33:12):
And it was all based back to that uranium stuff and watching all this happen, watching theshutdown of the national parks in October of 2013.
we're surrounded by national parks out here and it's like turning your economy off like alight switch and just watching the Clinton Foundation and the uranium one.
And then I'm...
(33:33):
town had been raided and people's lives destroyed.
A good friend of mine that uh committed suicide the following morning trying to protecthis family.
So it's like, it's not abstract on these things, but um I felt an obligation just to keepcalling out the Bureau of Land Management.
And next thing you know, I'm being prosecuted for conspiracy to trespass and the mostbogus charge.
(33:56):
you go through the court system, you go through all that, then you go to jail and...
um
You know, and when you sit in a jail, it was a very, very real experience.
And um federal threat.
Yeah, it was the federal government.
you know, I spent 15 months, I was on the front page of the Salt Lake Tribune.
(34:16):
This was a misdemeanor conspiracy to trespass.
no one's ever heard of it before or since.
But my attorney...
or an attorney friend of mine at the beginning said, take no comfort in the fact thatyou're innocent.
This is federal court and it makes no difference.
And I thought it was being cynical, but I found out that that was really true.
(34:37):
But all those things, you go back and you just think, really, what a blessing.
What a blessing it is to kind of see things for what they really are and maybe lose theconcept that people have your
best interests at heart, especially in the government.
um And if that's the reality, if government in reality does not have our best interests inheart, then people have to wake up to that.
(35:07):
And then they have to make changes.
In America, thank goodness, it still is our government.
We still can't affect it, even if it means taking some aggressive measures to enforce ourelections and to get things in place.
That's kind of where we're at, think.
In Utah, that's where we're at.
(35:29):
It's amazing the weaponization of government that had happened even before it was reallyin the public view.
mean, I, of course we, you know, the J sixers, everybody knows about them as beingpolitical prisoners.
think about Tina Peters and you know, she's a hero sitting in prison still today understate charges because they wanted to shield her from any potential pardons or any, any,
(35:57):
um,
aspect of the federal government that could come to her aid.
What was prison like for you and what, Phil, were there other people that were wrapped upin that or did they just target you?
So they prosecuted five individuals and they tried to solve together, which really hampersyour defense, especially for me, because I was obviously the target and I thought, know,
(36:23):
whatever I do is going to cost these other people.
um
So hence the conspiracy charge.
That's why they did the conspiracy so they could weaken your due process.
if they'd had five separate trials, I would have gone in guns blazing with my defense.
it was, I need to write a book about it because all of the stuff that happened, all of theplayers and all of the palace intrigue that was happening behind the scenes and you just,
(36:52):
I mean, it could go on and on and on.
um So I was expecting, they wanted,
two years, they wanted at least two years to sentence me to jail.
And when it came down to sentencing, I had four federal judges that had recused, spent$400,000 in legal fees and four judges recused.
(37:13):
when the chief judge came time for sentencing, he kind of reprimanded the prosecution.
He didn't grant a new trial, which he should have done, but he sentenced me to 10 days.
So that was like Christmas for me.
You can go for 10 days, but it was a very real 10 days.
(37:35):
And when you ask what it was like, I walked in there, I uh was booked into gel and it'snot fun and it's really invasive and um just almost dehumanizing.
uh But the 10 days, I met a lot of people.
uh
(37:56):
in jail, I was in maximum security and um I got to know some people.
when I got out, after about three months, my wife said, Phil, you've got to stop sendingmoney to these people.
And they had nobody.
had nobody.
And commissary is a big deal.
You don't have a wedding ring, you don't have a wallet, you have no identity.
(38:19):
And some of these people had nobody.
And so I was sending a lot of money to commissary.
accounts just because my heart was just like broken for these for these people and umAnyway gained an appreciation for what for what they're dealing with and what their
families are dealing with Yeah, it was was a it was honestly is such a such a learningexperience I Alexander Schultz and Eaton talks about I can't what he calls his jail, but
(38:51):
his blessed
is blessed gel or something.
I could kind of relate to that, even though I don't want to take away from anybody that'sdone a hard time because 10 days is not hard time, but it was very real.
Yeah, no doubt.
No doubt at all.
We've interviewed a handful of J6ers.
(39:15):
uh We talked to Tina before she went in a number of times.
what's remarkable to me is just the lack of justice and the absolute need for true justicereform, criminal justice reform.
um
(39:35):
I'm sure it's others besides Soros, but Soros obviously has been stealing our moneysomehow and through probably USAID.
I think that's pretty hard fact at this point.
And he's been uh manufacturing candidates and rigging elections so that we have no justiceand we have no recourse in these matters.
(40:01):
um
It's unbelievable.
Yeah, Tina.
Tina is a close personal friend of mine in and we're in we're in neighboring counties.
She's in Colorado.
I'm in Utah, but our counties are neighboring and um and yeah, so I've been I've been withher from the very beginning of of her ordeal, but so ironic that the one person who's
(40:28):
telling the truth is sitting in jail and all of the liars, all the cheaters are not.
And, know, they're they're uh
The fact, I don't accept the narrative that um President Trump couldn't affect that.
It's like in the civil rights arena, the federal government has a long history ofoverriding the states and saying, no, you just can't do that to people.
(40:59):
And vice versa.
The states sometimes have to override the federal government and say, no, you
We're not going to put up with that just like Texas did with the immigration issue.
So the idea that Tina Peters can be sitting in a cell while we talk about jurisdiction isreally, to me, that's contrary to what President Trump should be about.
(41:24):
I'm not critical of President Trump on many things, but I have been critical about him forallowing this to go on with Tina Peters.
It's a betrayal because
Her actions were purely in support of fair elections.
Crazy, crazy, crazy stuff.
it is crazy.
And I really loved Bannon's uh idea of just shut off all funds to Colorado until they cryuncle.
(41:52):
And let's just see how it goes.
Yeah.
It's to say it's like people say, well, what could we do?
like, what can't you do?
Well, I mean, what you're the president of the United States, what can't you do?
Or Pam Bondi or Cash Patel or any of them.
It's like, let's let's let's stop this, you know, and and and at the same time.
And I know this is so hard on on Tina.
I it's hard on her health.
(42:14):
I they destroyed her before she went to jail, you know, her marriage and her.
husband and her family, and here's a gold star mom who's, you I mean, it's just, it'salmost biblical to see what she's been set up for.
And I don't know what effect she's having on the people around her in prison, but my guessis that she's having a profound effect on those people for the good.
(42:38):
I look at it I say, you know, praise God and bless Tina.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And she is receiving mail.
ah So if anyone wants to write her a letter, can get the address to her.
But um yeah, I know she needs all the encouragement she can get.
(43:00):
What a warrior.
it's astonishing.
Yeah.
Well, kind of to jog back to um GOP and state level corruption, now that you've spent alot of time thinking, well, know, wading through the swamp, so to speak, in Utah, do you
have any, can you say where you think the, what the source of the corruption is?
(43:25):
Is it, does it all trace back to a single source or is it just, uh is it allopportunistic?
You know, it feels so broad and like it's got all these tentacles as you start to bring itback in though, you get back to your voter list and the illegal aliens that are added to
(43:47):
the voter list, the people that are supposed to oversee that voter list, the Eric system,Electronic Records Information Center, overseen by basically the Democrat get out the vote
people.
um So it starts with the voter lists and those are
Inaccessible.
In Utah, you cannot look at your voter list unconstitutionally.
(44:08):
So we've got a lawsuit, Public Interest Legal Foundation picked up my lawsuit that I hadhad going for several months and they picked that up.
So they're helping to cover the cost of that.
basically the Constitution, the uh Voter Rights Act says that that's public.
That's our list.
It belongs to us.
It doesn't belong to the state.
It belongs to the people.
(44:30):
and that we have a right to see it so that we can verify that it's accurate.
We have universal mail-in ballots, which are essential to the steal, and that's a big partof it.
um Then you've got the verification process that's going on with the clerks and themachines and um just the whole apparatus that tabulates votes and calculates votes.
(44:54):
um
And then no ability to look into that as well.
know, the cast vote record is another really important for me.
I call it like the detailed general ledger from an accountant standpoint.
That's where you can go in and you can look at details, not individual's information.
There's nothing there that would show an individual's vote.
(45:16):
But you can see when the votes came in, where the precincts are, you can start to do somestatistical analysis.
In a statistical analysis, if I want to say, what is the voter turnout in a precinct?
Number one, I need to know how many registered voters there are in the precinct.
Then I need to see how many votes were in that precinct.
Well, they've said, no, you cannot look at the voter list.
You can't look at how many registered voters are in that precinct.
(45:39):
You can't verify them.
And now you can't even look at what I would say is the numerator, um the actual votes thatwere cast in that precinct.
um
And we get a little bit of information.
We do the statistical analysis on that.
And it comes back again, like I said, it comes back indicating some serious, seriousproblems.
And that's the furthest we get.
(46:01):
We go to the courts.
I've spent probably $200,000 this last year and a half on legal expenses, all of themrelated to the election and to exposing those things.
And it's really painful.
And I have a few people that are helping to
cover the costs of very generous people that help with that.
a lot of it's, know, people are digging deep into their own pockets, myself included, butit feels like we have to crack this nut open in order to really look at it.
(46:32):
California, they did a big audit of their voter rolls and um found so many fraudulententries on the voter list rolls, whether it's illegal aliens or dead people or whatever it
might be, all of that becomes
basically the credit line to draw on when you want to affect an election.
(46:54):
And they're saying with the cleanup that they've done in California, California is verylikely to turn red in the next election.
It has a huge effect.
And that just tells you the only reason it's not red now is because of blatant cheating.
Yeah.
Have you, have you spent any time daydreaming about what Utah would look like if slashwhen Trump gets to the bottom of the 2020 election and forces out into the open the fact
(47:18):
that all of the machines are fraudulent?
man, I do.
I think about that all the time.
And what it is, it's that freedom of free markets and people making good decisions fortheir children and freedom to choose your schools and the curriculum.
(47:39):
I think the whole corruption just uh starts to give way to people's better judgment andindividuals better judgment.
You know, it's uh personhood, parenthood and statehood.
Those things are really important.
If you don't understand personhood or parenthood, then you get statehood wrong.
Next thing you know, you're given the federal government authority to control all of yourresources in your state.
(48:05):
It was never designed to be that way.
um But it all serves the pirate class that is intent on plundering the state.
And it's really expensive.
It hurts people.
You get rid of that element, I'm telling you.
It'd be like the kingdom of God restored to the earth.
I, you know, we look forward to that day and I do look forward to it.
(48:29):
Whether we can accomplish it or it's going to take a bigger event, I am.
I think about it a lot.
Yeah.
Well, it's a beautiful picture that you paint and you were talking about the voter rollsbeing basically ground zero for the steel.
And I couldn't agree with you more.
And um Tina had an interesting point.
(48:49):
She said that they should be wiped every, I think she said every one, every year theyshould be wiped every two years.
Are you familiar with Ed Solomon?
He's a mathematician.
His view, I love his view the best and I love
Tina's the best until I heard his, which is no voter rolls.
Show up just like you would if you were gonna get a new phone.
(49:11):
too.
think they do that in Montana or yeah, somebody would say that they don't have voterrolls.
You show up with your driver's license.
yeah, and your utility bill and done and done.
Beautiful.
uh
You know, the way we did elections for so, so many years where you show up on electionday, your vote was cast at the precinct and verified by people who knew who you were
(49:38):
anyway, and it's counted at the precinct level.
And then they report that up to the chain.
by 10 o'clock that night, we have the election results.
The only reason, the only reason to have universal mail-in ballots is for the purpose ofstealing an election.
There's no reason why we have universal mail-in balance.
It's more expensive.
(49:59):
It disrupts the chain of custody and uh really, really kills our system.
ah Since we're talking about Utah as a state, I think about what General Flynn often says,you local action equals national impact.
And I have a friend who's in Maine and he just feels like he's banging his head againstthe wall because he feels the people of the state are so apathetic.
(50:29):
That's not the sense I get from you with Utah.
It sounds like people are pretty activated.
What's moving the needle there for y'all?
um Honestly, is uh kind of getting those people who love honesty and truth talking to eachother.
it's like, you know, like starting that fire from the remaining coals is you put a few ofthose together and pretty soon they strengthen each other.
(50:56):
The best way to keep that from happening is to keep those people from talking to eachother.
so um for me in Utah, it's, I would say we're
in 10%, 15 % of the people that are awake and aware and watching what's going on.
But those people are now talking to each other.
(51:16):
Social media, we say, God bless Elon Musk for keeping us talking to each other throughTwitter.
But social media is powerful and people talking to each other.
It's hard to keep the truth buried forever.
Yeah.
Well, and the Bible says that everything hidden will come to light.
So I'm looking forward to being this many years old whenever everything that's hiddencomes to light.
(51:44):
I don't want to wait very much longer,
I appreciate that so much.
Well, honestly, I appreciate, you know, this program is such a good example of people thatare able to come on and talk about things.
But one thing I have learned, I believe, is patience and faith.
If it happens soon, I'll be happy.
(52:06):
If it takes a long time, I'll be happy.
Somebody else is in charge of that.
We just do our best and God's in charge of the results.
I've become very comfortable with that feeling of, yeah, because He really is in charge.
I've seen such miracles.
(52:26):
I told somebody the other day, I I feel like we've just been tossed along on a river ofmiracles.
And when you look back on your life, and for me, I look back on just my family, my kids,the lessons that they've learned, the values that they have.
And I just think, you know, just...
Believe and do your best and God will do some miracles for us.
(52:50):
I know that's happening.
yeah, it is happening.
You're so right.
Well, where do you go from here?
I was so happy to hear that you have already announced your intention to challenge SpencerCox again or to run for governor again.
So you're remaining in the fight despite all of the efforts to discourage you and to fameyou.
(53:12):
Tell us about that.
So before, in one of the debates ah with Spencer Cox, they said, will you accept theresults of the election?
And I said, I will commit to verify the results of the election, whether I win or lose.
And those words have kind of come back to haunt me because I'm still committed to thatpromise.
I am going to verify the results of that election.
(53:35):
And that means that I don't concede, I don't go away and um
I guess I reserve the right to change my mind about running in 2028, but the answer is,yeah, absolutely I'm running in 2028.
Until something else is, until we learn the truth, yeah, the fight isn't taking meanywhere else besides where I'm at right now.
(54:03):
yeah, I'm in that.
And hoping, honestly, for a off ramp that...
that someone else can take that or that we clean things up before that happens.
Because I am not an office seeker.
(54:24):
I just really believe in government.
I believe in representative government and we should fight for it.
We should.
Well, no offense to your feelings, Phil, but I want you to do it.
I think the people of Utah want you to do it.
So I pray that things come to light between now and then, and uh maybe it'll have to besooner than 2028.
(54:52):
That's my prayer.
I want clean houses long before then.
And ah when you were saying that Spencer Cox wanted you to
say that you would concede the election or admit that the election, know, the results ofthe election that there is a demonic entity that forces all of these uniparty people to
(55:14):
say that I don't understand what it is, but you they say it and I'm like, it's becausethey understand the power of words and they know that words are one and you know, battles
are one and lost in the mind.
And so if you are if you're going to concede it,
If you're here, you know, what does Jesus say?
We um learn by hearing and every word by the mouth of God.
(55:37):
Well, if we if the words that we say inform our mind in a way, right, like if you thinkyou're reading scripture, you're meditating on scripture.
So you would be reinforcing your own your own mindset, I think.
I don't know if I'm making a whole lot of sense here, but I think that that would.
The concession is, I mean, the defeat in the spiritual is just as real.
(55:59):
if not more real than the defeat in the physical.
Anyway, I don't know if that makes sense.
It absolutely makes sense.
And it's so powerful.
And honestly, uh I've got a handful of people close to me, my wife being chief among themwho she just doesn't have the tolerance for.
uh First of all, she doesn't admire cowards.
(56:21):
And second of all, she really expects people to stand up and do the right thing.
so ah it really fortifies you.
And our circle of friends, you know, in politics,
It was kind of shrinking every year and then running for governor.
It's really expanded in a really beautiful way.
We're surrounded by people who feel the same way that you do.
And uh they are believers.
(56:46):
And I had a really spiritual experience in jail.
And I won't go into it, but the message, the words that came to me were, um now is thetime.
Now is my work made manifest and uh kind of like bear witness, know, strengthen yourresolve and bear witness to my ability to accomplish unspeakable good.
(57:15):
I um totally lean on that so much.
And I just think now's the time and it's going to happen and I'm going to watch it.
I'm going to be an observer or a participant or whatever, but
It's something significant is going to take place.
(57:40):
And yeah, I don't want to be a coward.
Yeah, well, you're certainly not.
And I'm just so appreciative for you standing up, saying the truth, whether people think,I don't know what, if people think that people are lunatics, but they love to say it, you
know, maybe they think it, but they surely love to call us conspiracy theorists, rightwing fanatics, lunatics, you know, whatever demeaning words they can use um to basically
(58:10):
silence us, cow us.
um
So I just appreciate your courage and your tenacity because it's so needed in this time.
so few, I mean, in a way, so few people have stood up.
In a way, so, so many people have stood up.
But I think you're right, know?
um Courage begets courage and it takes a central figure to cause, to get a groundswell ofsupport for an idea or for truth or for freedom.
(58:42):
And I think that's what we're living in the midst of.
I mean, it's a great honor and a privilege to be living in this time where I do thinkwe're in 1776 2.0 and how long the war lasts is, you know, is only God knows.
(59:03):
Yeah Yeah, it was great fourth of July celebration and thinking about that, you know He'sjust like because because like you say those people didn't know they didn't know what the
outcome was.
It probably assumed That the odds were were more likely that they would you know be hungas as traders But something inside of him Said, you know liberty or death.
(59:26):
I There's there's not a there's not a there's not a middle
choice there.
So it's not and I tell people that all the time.
This is not my fight.
This is the fight.
is this is the is what we're here for.
So win or lose.
It's it's we we got to be in it.
Yeah, we do.
Well, how can people follow you?
How can people support your commitment to uncover what happened in 2024 in Utah andwhatever work you're doing towards your campaign now?
(59:59):
Social media, my ex post is probably where most of the relevant stuff is.
I do have a website, Lyman for Utah, and that's F-O-R, Lyman, F-O-R, Utah.
It's my governor's page, and there's a lot of governor stuff on there.
I haven't really tried to go and turn that into anything else, but it does have links toarticles and all this information about immigration and the role that it plays in our
(01:00:21):
elections and things like that.
But my ex post, Lyman underscore, no, Phil underscore Lyman.
And yeah, just, yeah, all the social media, Facebook, Instagram.
Awesome.
Well, thank you for taking some time with me today.
It's so lovely getting to chat with you and I will encourage you, please do write thatbook because you have some inside knowledge that I think needs to be more widespread.
(01:00:52):
People need to know what really went down.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel very compelled to do it.
I've sat down and tried my hats off to anybody that can write a book because it's it's noteasy.
But I have I've tried to kind of start start that.
Well, maybe we need to send out a call for some ghost writers so you can sit down and tellyour story.
(01:01:14):
I think people do a great job with that.
know, some people are really great at it.
Yeah, it's true.
Awesome.
Well, God bless you, Phil.
Please um keep me posted and feel free.
You're always welcome here on For the Level of Freedom and the State of Freedom, whereveryou want to give your updates.
Well, thanks again and yeah, yeah, God bless you for doing this and staying with it.
(01:01:41):
And thanks for the encouragement and not for just me, but for, you know, all of thelisteners and yeah, you're awesome.
I'm so grateful.
Thank you, Phil.
We'll talk to you soon.
Have a great afternoon.
Thanks.
See ya.
Welcome to For the Love of Freedom.
I'm your host Danielle Walker.
It's my absolute pleasure to be with you today.
For the Love of Freedom is my new show where we meet guests who are disrupting the statusquo in pursuit of bringing freedom to the world, whether it's political freedom,
spiritual, financial, or some other arena of life.
And today I'm joined by a gentleman who's been at the forefront of the fight for politicalfreedom in Utah, Phil Lyman.
(00:29):
He's been on the state of freedom with Chris and I a number of times during his 2024 racefor governor.
And he's with me today to talk not only about the fight itself, but why he's taken on thecause of freeing the state of Utah from the oppression and tyranny of its own state level
deep state.
And those of you who listening from Louisiana know that ours is alive and well andthriving, unfortunately.
(00:53):
uh
Before we get into it, I always love to bring a scripture of the day to help ground us andto set the tone for the conversation.
And the scripture for today is Psalm chapter 115 verse 16.
And it says, the heavens belong to our God.
They are his alone, but he has given us the earth and put us in charge.
(01:15):
And Phil, I thought that was so appropriate for the show with you because you have nottaken this lying down.
You recognize that we are the hands and feet of God and we have work to do.
He expects us to take dominion over the earth.
He said multiply and subdue the earth, right?
And that's exactly what we're uh trying to do through our various means.
(01:38):
But absolutely, that's something that I see you doing through your just relentless effortsin Utah.
So thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me on again.
It's always so good to talk to you.
So refreshing.
Well, I love that and you are welcome here anytime and on the state of freedom anytimeWe've really enjoyed you and we believe in the work that you're doing in Utah.
(02:02):
It's been so crazy to see ah Your story I was talking to my parents about it last nightand I was just reminding them, know a little bit about it and it was just like it's it's
almost like the people who ah Who are in?
the grownups in charge of Utah, you know, if we want to talk about it that way, uh seemedto just be like, well, yeah, okay.
(02:27):
I know you think you won and I know the numbers actually say that you won, but you didn'treally win.
And the goalpost kept moving and changing the whole entire way.
And the rules kept changing to suit the people in pursuit of power.
And that is just uh bizarre and lame and
(02:48):
I mean, un-American.
from the running for the governor's spot.
I was a legislator for six years before that.
And I told people, I'm not upset about the elections because I lost the governor's race.
I ran for the governor because I was upset about the corruption in the elections.
And all we did was confirm all of these issues.
(03:10):
you know, early on, there's two ways to get on the primary ballot as a Republican.
One is through the convention and the other is by gathering signatures.
Well, I won the convention with almost 70%, um which is, you know, unprecedented,especially against an incumbent governor.
um Spencer Cox is really, really unpopular, uses his pronouns, joined the climate core,and, know, implemented DEI, did all these things over the four years that I was observing.
(03:39):
And I thought there's no way that Utah will elect this person.
um And certainly that was born out at the convention, but then he got his...
uh
And he said, well, I'm on the primary ballot because I got signatures.
And any other candidate that has signatures, you could just call up and say, I review ifyou're his opponent, can I review the signature packets?
(04:00):
It's like, yeah, come in Tuesday at two o'clock and spend as much time as you want and youcan review the signature packets.
You can't take photocopies.
uh You can't take photocopies of people's actual signatures, whatever, but you can reviewthose.
Yeah.
And so we asked for that with Spencer Cox and the answer for us was no, you can't look atthose signatures.
(04:23):
In fact, how dare you even suggest that you could come in and look at people's privateinformation.
That's the big thing.
So I said, well, there's only one reason not to let us look at the signatures is becauseyou don't have them.
And so I made that statement early on before the primary election and uh
And of course, that came out with all these op-eds from the Lieutenant Governor's office.
(04:45):
What a conspiracy theorist I am.
I said, well, it's easy to disprove me.
Until you can demonstrate otherwise, I'll just assume you don't have your signatures.
then we found out there were criminal charges on some of the signature gatherers inanother part of the state.
But all the statewide races were done by a single clerk.
(05:07):
So I said, well, you've got another clerk here that's
you know, look through the signature packets of this individual, of another individual andfound a bunch of fraudulent signatures.
The same guy that was gathering for him was also gathering for Spencer Cox from a CPA.
for me, it's like, oh, you've got two people that essentially were looking at the samework and one's coming up with this answer.
(05:30):
Let's see what the statewide race came up with.
And so we did the grammar request.
We went to court.
We did all of these things, you know, and of course the courts throw it out.
They're all pointed by Governor Cox and, and,
And, the same company also gathered signatures for the attorney general and for JohnCurtis, the senator.
And I don't question whether they got their signatures.
(05:52):
But I contacted, I said, you you guys should be asking for an audit because it's the samecompany.
And lo and behold, they did kind of come out and say, you know, we kind of demand that oursignatures be verified and remove this, this cloud.
So they did, they, they audited the signatures and.
What they came back with was that Spencer Cox didn't get enough signatures.
(06:13):
um He didn't have his signatures.
And that should mean something.
If nothing else, it should mean that they go back and say, Phil, we're sorry we drug youthrough the mud over this.
m And of course, Spencer Cox is saying, well, we believed we had our signatures.
We relied on the information.
(06:35):
And it's like, well, you're in charge of that whole process.
The lieutenant governor is in charge of this.
And you go back and say, about these emails clear back in March of 2024 um saying that youdidn't have enough signatures that you overlook that.
then, then it turns in from a, from a whatever, a competence issue into a full-fledged uhcoverup and corruption.
(06:59):
And I think people deserve to know if that's the case, I don't expect that the legislatureis going to, you know, impeach or remove governor Cox, but people do need to know.
it's.
And it's really has turned into a kind of a movement here in Utah of why do we allow suchuh corruption?
know, the very perpetrator, the very person who's putting his name on the ballot is theone who's verifying the signatures and overseeing the signature process.
(07:29):
even for the Lieutenant Governor, which is a single race in Utah, we don't have aSecretary of State.
So they run on ticket.
Yeah.
And the governor could...
a ticket and the lieutenant governor acts as the secretary of state does in most otherstates?
Wow.
So you say, well, can we look at voter lists?
The lieutenant governor says, no, you may not look at voter lists.
(07:50):
Can we look at the CASFA record?
Lieutenant governor, no.
Who prints the ballots?
Lieutenant governor.
Who verifies the results of the election?
Lieutenant governor.
Who verifies the signatures?
It's like, OK, this person can do anything they want.
And there's nothing you can do about it.
You can't look at it.
You can't.
(08:10):
do anything.
So then you have to say, would this Lieutenant Governor cheat?
we expected as citizens to rely just 100 % on the integrity of the Lieutenant Governor?
And there's some people that would say, yes, that's good enough.
That's what we want.
But for me, I say, well, let's verify.
Let's just verify.
And again, as a CPA, I look at it say, well, there's a few things we could do to verifythese things.
(08:34):
But every time you do something, every time you run a statistical report or something likethat, the results come back.
you know, way, way off.
It's like from a, a statistical analysis, you'd say, well, this is a huge irregularity,almost a statistical impossibility.
Let's have an explanation.
And the only response you get to saying, can we get an explanation is, know, to call namesand call your conspiracy theorists.
(08:58):
And, and for me at this point, that's just like music to my ears, because it means it'svalidation.
Yeah, absolutely.
Now you got involved in the gubernatorial race, you said, or you ran for governor becauseof uh your belief in corruption in the elections.
But if we take it back, you've been involved in politics in Utah for a long time.
(09:20):
You've been a local, um not just activist, but uh a local public servant.
What got you involved in supporting your communities in that way?
Yes.
So in 2009, Obama had just taken office and by June of 2009, there was a massive raid onmy community.
I live in a small little town, very remote little southeastern town in Utah.
(09:46):
And there was a huge raid, 300 federal agents, 26 families whose lives were reallyupended.
And I watched that happen and it was all under the auspice of an artifacts ring.
um But you find out that
underlying all of that was a desire to lock up the resources in this area where theuranium rich area was where a bunch of the uranium one claims were that Hillary Clinton,
(10:10):
you know, a year later sold to Russia.
So you see all this stuff in the real question.
real quickly, the artifacts ring, that would be like saying that people are trafficking inartifacts that are supposed to be, okay.
Native American artifacts.
And we're also in phenomenal area of the world if a person wants to look at the Anasaziruins and um find things.
(10:36):
It's really a very rich area.
So they're not wrong about this being a very rich area.
They are wrong about locals looting and taking stuff.
The universities and the museums have done way, way more.
of that than the locals.
We really have an appreciation for it and a respect for it.
So the whole premise is really offensive to start with, but that's what the federalgovernment and especially the agencies do, the executive branch, is they create a crisis
(11:03):
to which they are the solution and then they come in with a heavy hand.
And it'd be one thing if they're saying, you we've got to stop the artifacts looting, butwhat it was was we've got to lock up the resources of that area and sell the uranium to
Russia.
So Frank Giustra, Canadian financier comes in and he brokers the deal between the ClintonFoundation, Uranium One, and Putin to buy out Uranium One.
(11:31):
made a billion dollar profit on the deal, turned around and donated $110 million to theClinton Foundation.
And then a couple of years later, Russia sold those uranium claims back to another companyfor pennies on the dollar for what they paid for it.
So then you're going like, well,
What was this all about?
But Putin at the time was buying uh assets in Kazakhstan and Africa and Australia and allover the world.
(11:58):
He really had a stated purpose to corner and own the nuclear um energy sector by takingall the uranium.
And of course, Hillary Clinton was all in on that deal.
And most people didn't see that.
I was sitting at the table with
And this is as account.
(12:18):
So I ran for County Commissioner after this raid.
And in 2010, I was sitting at a table with a bunch of the uranium companies because wewere dealing with President Barack Obama's removal of a bunch of uranium property.
they came and said,
he federalized it?
Is that what happened?
Yeah, so it's all on federal land.
(12:39):
It's all on public land.
em mean, some of it's state land, some of it's private, but for the most part, theseassets are sitting out on this vast federal estate, which has always had, em you know, the
mining claims were legitimate mining claims.
You can't remove those.
So he was proposing to shut down what we call the Arizona Strip, which is a real rich areain Utah and Arizona right on the border.
(13:04):
And one of the companies, so I'm sitting down at lunch and it was Uranium One and theywere a big player and they said, well, we're not going to be coming anymore because we
sold the company.
I said, you sold the company?
they said, yeah, to Russia.
And I was like, waiting for the punchline.
You've got to be kidding me.
And they said, no, and Hillary Clinton brokered the deal and now I'm really waiting forthe punchline.
(13:26):
And then you read in the papers afterwards that that's exactly what happened.
But I'm talking to the guys on the CEOs and the
executives of Uranium One and they were, I think they were as surprised as anybody else.
Number one, that they were able to sell that company for so much money.
And number two, that it was Hillary Clinton that was brokering the deal.
(13:46):
for them, was, you can't say no to the money that was being thrown around.
Anyway, in a nutshell, what I looked at, and I said, why does government make suchhorrible policies that hurt the very people that they were?
elected to serve, you know?
And so where's the representative form of government that we really, really cherish inAmerica?
(14:13):
The idea that if someone can make a decision that is gonna hurt their neighbors, then thatperson is given authority to make that decision by being elected.
And um so you get in and you start looking and you find out, as a county commissioner, Ifind out that there's a lot of pressure coming from the...
(14:33):
globalist interests, the Marxist interests, the World Economic Forum, the United Nations,all of these policies, they're drafting legislation, they're pushing it through the
National Governors Association or whatever, all the way down through the legislatures.
And so you see this in action and uh the money that is exchanged with it.
(14:54):
And you start to realize that you've got people on one hand who are honest.
trying to figure out why everything is going against them.
And on the other hand, you got literally pirates who are running the show and the media isbehind them.
The judges are in on it.
It's a huge, it doesn't matter if they're Democrats, Republicans, a federal state, youknow, all this idea of balance of powers and federalism and all that.
(15:22):
It just goes out the window because you're dealing with people who are in on the take.
They're just part of it and they can see it.
And they know that
that they are going to remain in power because they have certain things locked up.
So all roads lead back to the election.
It's like, well, maybe we could have an election and remove some of those people frompower.
(15:43):
And to me, Governor Cox was the quintessential example of a governor who was makingreally, really bad decisions for his state and should be challenged.
so it was an easy decision.
to challenge him and everything is, I feel very inspired and directed uh spiritually whenI make certain decisions.
(16:07):
And this has been one of those that from the very beginning has felt right.
as uh I just opened up so many, shine the light in so many dark places.
Yeah, well, you certainly have.
as you were talking, I was reminded today of ah Jeffrey Epstein's claim that he co-foundedthe Clinton Foundation.
(16:34):
So it'll be very interesting when this stuff all really truly unravels ah in a meaningful,justice-driven way to see how far ah down all that is connected.
Because of course,
very few of us believe what, I don't know what um Cash Patel and Pam Bondi's reasons areand Dan Bongino for trying to tell us that there was no client list.
(17:01):
is uh no, Epstein didn't kill himself, all these things.
But I don't buy that for one hot second.
Yeah, I told somebody the other day, said, you know, in matters of espionage, you'll neverknow the truth.
I do agree with that to some extent, but at the same time, know, free people, people whoare free in their soul and in their heart and who really feel it, it's like you can't
(17:27):
overpower that.
You can't take that away from them.
um even though they may feel like resistance is ultimately futile, um they still
They still don't have a choice other than to resist tyranny and resist lies and to tellthe truth.
um you know, as long as that's in place, uh government is going to have a hard timewinning that battle.
(17:52):
Yeah, well, I pray that this is for some other purpose and not um to further lie to theAmerican people in a bold, you know, in a bald faced way.
But I guess, I guess time will tell.
I certainly hope some of those people are being rolled up and it's just needs to be keptquiet.
(18:14):
um Phil.
I had first of all, had no idea that you had any connection to Uranium One.
That's just so fascinating.
And it really puts a color on all the things you've seen because whenever you've seen thatlevel of corruption that up close and personal, you just can't help but know that that's
(18:40):
not the only place it is.
um
yeah.
we have something in common that I learned about today, which is I spent a lot of timetraveling through Africa.
I didn't realize that you did your mission in South Africa.
Yeah.
So I – oh my gosh, beautiful place, beautiful people.
It's just so wonderful.
(19:02):
But I was a little Pollyanna in my time traveling through Africa in my 20s and 30s.
And over time, I started really realizing, oh, that – you know, when people say Africa iscorrupt, they're not.
wrong.
But what was worse was when I came back home and finally woke up and realized we're justas bad.
(19:25):
Actually, we're worse because in some ways, many countries in Africa have a free press andwe don't have any, any, any semblance of a free press other than people like myself,
people, you know, who are, who have basically popped up since 2020.
So
Anyway, I just wanted to make that connection because corruption is everywhere.
(19:48):
It's a global epidemic.
If it's at your doorstep, you have to know that it's basically at everyone's.
Well, I mean, is the topic of most of literature from the very beginning through Rome islike, do you have the structure that you want on the one hand without it being corrupted?
(20:11):
So the Romans and the Republican form of government that they came up with and then thefounding fathers obviously were really keenly aware of the problems that come from
tyrants.
And they tried to create a, and that's what's so beautiful about America.
It's like the one time you can go back and say, they took on power, they challenged powerat the highest level and they succeeded and they created something that changed the whole
(20:40):
face of humanity.
And it's too important to um watch it, to watch it be corrupted and start to lose that.
But clearly if people could,
take control of the planet, they would do it.
And they would take control of the resources and the water and the people and the food,the health care, the education, our kids.
(21:01):
And that's one of the things I said on the campaign trail.
I said, you know, these people are not coming for your money.
They have all the money in the world.
They're coming for your children.
they want to indoctrinate them.
want to, you know, your children are going to see the world in a very different light thanthe way we see it, especially, you know, people that are
(21:21):
believers believe in God, believe in uh the divine destiny of the soul and individualityand all those things.
That is contrary to what the globalists want.
They do not want individual thinkers.
They want collective thought.
You're so right.
And on that point of they're not coming for your money, they already have.
(21:43):
You know, if you believe that all taxation is theft, they have already robbed us blindevery which way from Sunday.
Yeah, mean, inflation is the the hugest tax that we face and we have no control over that.
They can just go and print, you know, another trillion dollars, you know, add another fivetrillion dollars to the to the deficit.
(22:04):
back in 2000, it was around 2006.
I was looking at the deficit and I can't remember exactly where I was at was like an eighttrillion dollars.
And I did the math and I thought we have we have reached the point of no return.
There is no recovery from this massive, massive
amount of debt and now we're pushing 40 trillion and I'm at the point now, like, I don'tknow, I guess it's irrelevant.
(22:28):
I guess they can push that to an unlimited amount.
don't know what the, no one ever plans on paying this off.
And it's really a frightening proposition for America.
the other thing you say is, well, is America $40 trillion in debt because we don't haveresources or is it because we don't have uh innovation?
(22:50):
people that are willing to work is like there's only one reason for America to be in debtto anybody and that's because of the plunder.
That's just, it's a system.
It's designed to rob not only Americans, but the entire world of the wealth and to put itin the pockets of fewer and fewer people.
And you watch that happen.
(23:11):
Yeah, you're so right.
have this, I have kind of an inkling of a theory.
So you as a CPA would have a better, especially someone who has um worked in thegovernment.
But my inkling of a theory is that we don't ever actually need to pay taxes.
Like there's no reason American people should pay taxes because of the resources that wehave at our fingertips.
(23:37):
Instead, we could have fee based services.
So you only pay for what you get.
At a maximum but you we could also I mean the government could be producing stuff or wecould be producing stuff that That covers the cost.
I mean look at look at Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia basically didn't exist before 1970whenever we went in and taught them how to get oil out of the ground and now all of those
(24:03):
all of the people of Saudi Arabia They have a they have a sovereign wealth fund
They don't have to pay for their beautiful roads.
They don't have to pay for their beautiful bridges.
They just simply get to enjoy the fruit of the land.
Imagine that.
yeah.
Ours is an income redistribution system.
(24:23):
It's got very little to do with paying for things.
I mean, it goes back to Adam Smith and the free market conversations.
And uh you're absolutely right.
And I was pushing for that in Utah also with during the governor's race.
I said, we don't need an income tax.
We can pay for it.
We can pay our bills with a severance tax, which is the minerals.
(24:43):
um
Now, it would be harder in Utah than it is in, Alaska, where you've got 10 times the areaand a tenth of the population.
But we have massive, massive resources.
And the beautiful thing about moving to a severance tax or a minerals-based tax is now themotivation for governments is to produce instead of to stop production.
(25:08):
And that's what we see now is like, it all down, shut down, blow up your...
your energy plant, get rid of all of your mines, get rid of all of your production, andjust raise people's taxes in em perpetuity.
it's in, yeah, that gets to a point where at some point somebody's got to producesomething.
(25:30):
And if they don't, then they're nothing but slaves.
And that is the, that's, I think we're there.
I would say America is there.
I think we are.
absolutely think we are.
What do you think?
Have you been uh dwelling on it all?
ah Elon Musk and this new America party thing?
Have you given that any thought?
(25:53):
Yeah, lots of contemplation about that.
ah The GOP has abandoned us.
The faithful platform Republicans have really felt abandoned.
um Yet I like the platform of the GOP and I don't see a viable, I shouldn't say I don'tsee a viable, the future of a viable candidate coming out of a
(26:23):
a new party like that is a ways down the road.
um And I'm not sure that Elon Musk is the right person to launch that.
em Just ideologically, puts a few people, and really what it does is it really targetsmore Republicans than just American uh truth lovers.
(26:48):
uh But I mean, I applaud his effort.
I applaud what he's doing.
Yeah, I'm a libertarian at heart and I would, I always tell people, said, it's, it's anoxymoron to say that, know, to join the libertarian parties, because, because libertarians
don't join parties.
They're, they're independent, you know?
So you can be a libertarian and be a Republican.
I, but to join the libertarian party, I mean, I love Ross Burrough.
(27:11):
I, know, he's really one of my favorite people.
And we saw what happened with, you know, with his, his runs for, for office and,
And then things like that are really divided the parties.
Yeah, part of me wonders if this is just part of a distraction campaign for somethingelse.
feel like a...
(27:34):
Yeah.
big, beautiful bill, but I thought the only person that would call it that is Trump.
And the only reason we call that is to like pay no attention to what is actually going onin the Middle East or something.
Or, you know, let's focus on this.
It's really interesting.
I think it's smart.
I think it's strategic.
I think it's clever, but I, yeah, I feel the same way about so much of what's happeningthat it feels more like a Psyop.
(27:57):
Yeah, it does feel like a sire.
Part of what I was wondering or just kind of tinkering with is this idea that once theAmerican public really realizes what the Uniparty has done and how depraved and corrupt so
many of these people are on both sides of the quote unquote aisle, the parties are goingto have to collapse.
(28:22):
And in some way you could say this is a place for them to go.
But I think
If we really think about an America party, forget Elon Musk, forget his little Indian guythat set up the thing.
I mean, people should not have a political party.
I don't really believe in political parties.
(28:44):
They're corporations.
They serve the interests of whoever holds the purse.
And I think people need to run on their own merit, on their own value systems.
and not clutch at whatever they think the constituents of the given district or area are.
know, like I come from a very conservative area.
(29:05):
And so we have a tremendous number of rhinos here because everyone just wears the redbadge like, you know, so that they can get elected.
And as soon as they get elected, they do whatever they want.
So I did run for the state party chair.
And again, it was more just a way to keep the wills churning on exposing corruption.
(29:26):
And it was very, very effective.
I gave a speech at convention.
And it was one of those times when I felt so compelled to say some things that you wouldnever typically hear at a convention.
And um you'll appreciate it because you're
(29:46):
you know, a religious minded person, but I stood up and I said, after Jesus taught theparable of the sower and just mentioning the word Jesus in a political, like, was like an
audible gasp.
My wife said, there was an audible gasp when you said the name Jesus and there's power inthat name.
And I tried to explain it in like the most common language, but the story was after hetaught that parable of the sower, his disciples came and says, why do you teach him
(30:15):
parables?
And I'll get to the point of this.
he said, well, he said, Isaiah prophesied that people would have eyes that wouldn't seeand ears that wouldn't hear, hearts that wouldn't feel.
But when I teach in parables, there might be some people that hear that who will see withtheir eyes, who will hear with their ears, will feel with their hearts and will be
converted and I can heal them.
(30:37):
And I told that story.
But the point of that is like,
Do you feel it with your heart or are you just reading, you know, and whether it's freedomor anything else, like we've got all the stuff written in the constitution and the people
have it memorized.
They memorize the Declaration of Independence, but it's like, do they really feel it?
my point was, you know, the GOP is so fractured in Utah that um what's going to unify usis that I love freedom just like you love freedom.
(31:04):
And whether you're Democrat or, you know, wherever you're at on the political spectrum,freedom,
means freedom, And if we feel that, then we act differently than if it's all just politicsand everything is politics.
so I'm with you on that.
think at some point, I think our love of country, our love of family and society and foreach other transcends the political fighting that's going on.
(31:33):
I don't know how close we are to that actually happening, but I really felt that.
felt.
And it was funny because Jesus said that uh so many people, hear those parables and theydon't know what he's even talking about.
It's just mass confusion.
And after the convention, had people come up, some members of my faith, some members of myfaith, and said, wow, I never expected to feel the Holy Spirit at a political convention.
(32:07):
That was amazing.
And other people who were pious, religious people that said, Lyman's speech was a wordsalad, was pure gibberish.
And I thought, bravo.
I watched it happen.
And I felt it too.
(32:27):
There's 4,000 people there.
And I looked around that room and I thought, some of you are going to get this and some ofyou aren't.
But um it's time.
It's time for people to...
Yeah, to put aside the party stuff in favor of their heart, know, the love of America.
whether that happens, I guess it does for some of us.
(32:51):
And that's probably the best.
I mean, that's probably God's plan.
Some will and some won't.
that's true.
That's true.
I mean, he wills that we all would, but I guess, you know, not all are willing.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, I didn't finish with the...
So I did go to jail after the, you know, standing up for the...
(33:12):
And it was all based back to that uranium stuff and watching all this happen, watching theshutdown of the national parks in October of 2013.
we're surrounded by national parks out here and it's like turning your economy off like alight switch and just watching the Clinton Foundation and the uranium one.
And then I'm...
(33:33):
town had been raided and people's lives destroyed.
A good friend of mine that uh committed suicide the following morning trying to protecthis family.
So it's like, it's not abstract on these things, but um I felt an obligation just to keepcalling out the Bureau of Land Management.
And next thing you know, I'm being prosecuted for conspiracy to trespass and the mostbogus charge.
(33:56):
you go through the court system, you go through all that, then you go to jail and...
um
You know, and when you sit in a jail, it was a very, very real experience.
And um federal threat.
Yeah, it was the federal government.
you know, I spent 15 months, I was on the front page of the Salt Lake Tribune.
(34:16):
This was a misdemeanor conspiracy to trespass.
no one's ever heard of it before or since.
But my attorney...
or an attorney friend of mine at the beginning said, take no comfort in the fact thatyou're innocent.
This is federal court and it makes no difference.
And I thought it was being cynical, but I found out that that was really true.
(34:37):
But all those things, you go back and you just think, really, what a blessing.
What a blessing it is to kind of see things for what they really are and maybe lose theconcept that people have your
best interests at heart, especially in the government.
um And if that's the reality, if government in reality does not have our best interests inheart, then people have to wake up to that.
(35:07):
And then they have to make changes.
In America, thank goodness, it still is our government.
We still can't affect it, even if it means taking some aggressive measures to enforce ourelections and to get things in place.
That's kind of where we're at, think.
In Utah, that's where we're at.
(35:29):
It's amazing the weaponization of government that had happened even before it was reallyin the public view.
mean, I, of course we, you know, the J sixers, everybody knows about them as beingpolitical prisoners.
think about Tina Peters and you know, she's a hero sitting in prison still today understate charges because they wanted to shield her from any potential pardons or any, any,
(35:57):
um,
aspect of the federal government that could come to her aid.
What was prison like for you and what, Phil, were there other people that were wrapped upin that or did they just target you?
So they prosecuted five individuals and they tried to solve together, which really hampersyour defense, especially for me, because I was obviously the target and I thought, know,
(36:23):
whatever I do is going to cost these other people.
um
So hence the conspiracy charge.
That's why they did the conspiracy so they could weaken your due process.
if they'd had five separate trials, I would have gone in guns blazing with my defense.
it was, I need to write a book about it because all of the stuff that happened, all of theplayers and all of the palace intrigue that was happening behind the scenes and you just,
(36:52):
I mean, it could go on and on and on.
um So I was expecting, they wanted,
two years, they wanted at least two years to sentence me to jail.
And when it came down to sentencing, I had four federal judges that had recused, spent$400,000 in legal fees and four judges recused.
(37:13):
when the chief judge came time for sentencing, he kind of reprimanded the prosecution.
He didn't grant a new trial, which he should have done, but he sentenced me to 10 days.
So that was like Christmas for me.
You can go for 10 days, but it was a very real 10 days.
(37:35):
And when you ask what it was like, I walked in there, I uh was booked into gel and it'snot fun and it's really invasive and um just almost dehumanizing.
uh But the 10 days, I met a lot of people.
uh
(37:56):
in jail, I was in maximum security and um I got to know some people.
when I got out, after about three months, my wife said, Phil, you've got to stop sendingmoney to these people.
And they had nobody.
had nobody.
And commissary is a big deal.
You don't have a wedding ring, you don't have a wallet, you have no identity.
(38:19):
And some of these people had nobody.
And so I was sending a lot of money to commissary.
accounts just because my heart was just like broken for these for these people and umAnyway gained an appreciation for what for what they're dealing with and what their
families are dealing with Yeah, it was was a it was honestly is such a such a learningexperience I Alexander Schultz and Eaton talks about I can't what he calls his jail, but
(38:51):
his blessed
is blessed gel or something.
I could kind of relate to that, even though I don't want to take away from anybody that'sdone a hard time because 10 days is not hard time, but it was very real.
Yeah, no doubt.
No doubt at all.
We've interviewed a handful of J6ers.
(39:15):
uh We talked to Tina before she went in a number of times.
what's remarkable to me is just the lack of justice and the absolute need for true justicereform, criminal justice reform.
um
(39:35):
I'm sure it's others besides Soros, but Soros obviously has been stealing our moneysomehow and through probably USAID.
I think that's pretty hard fact at this point.
And he's been uh manufacturing candidates and rigging elections so that we have no justiceand we have no recourse in these matters.
(40:01):
um
It's unbelievable.
Yeah, Tina.
Tina is a close personal friend of mine in and we're in we're in neighboring counties.
She's in Colorado.
I'm in Utah, but our counties are neighboring and um and yeah, so I've been I've been withher from the very beginning of of her ordeal, but so ironic that the one person who's
(40:28):
telling the truth is sitting in jail and all of the liars, all the cheaters are not.
And, know, they're they're uh
The fact, I don't accept the narrative that um President Trump couldn't affect that.
It's like in the civil rights arena, the federal government has a long history ofoverriding the states and saying, no, you just can't do that to people.
(40:59):
And vice versa.
The states sometimes have to override the federal government and say, no, you
We're not going to put up with that just like Texas did with the immigration issue.
So the idea that Tina Peters can be sitting in a cell while we talk about jurisdiction isreally, to me, that's contrary to what President Trump should be about.
(41:24):
I'm not critical of President Trump on many things, but I have been critical about him forallowing this to go on with Tina Peters.
It's a betrayal because
Her actions were purely in support of fair elections.
Crazy, crazy, crazy stuff.
it is crazy.
And I really loved Bannon's uh idea of just shut off all funds to Colorado until they cryuncle.
(41:52):
And let's just see how it goes.
Yeah.
It's to say it's like people say, well, what could we do?
like, what can't you do?
Well, I mean, what you're the president of the United States, what can't you do?
Or Pam Bondi or Cash Patel or any of them.
It's like, let's let's let's stop this, you know, and and and at the same time.
And I know this is so hard on on Tina.
I it's hard on her health.
(42:14):
I they destroyed her before she went to jail, you know, her marriage and her.
husband and her family, and here's a gold star mom who's, you I mean, it's just, it'salmost biblical to see what she's been set up for.
And I don't know what effect she's having on the people around her in prison, but my guessis that she's having a profound effect on those people for the good.
(42:38):
I look at it I say, you know, praise God and bless Tina.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And she is receiving mail.
ah So if anyone wants to write her a letter, can get the address to her.
But um yeah, I know she needs all the encouragement she can get.
(43:00):
What a warrior.
it's astonishing.
Yeah.
Well, kind of to jog back to um GOP and state level corruption, now that you've spent alot of time thinking, well, know, wading through the swamp, so to speak, in Utah, do you
have any, can you say where you think the, what the source of the corruption is?
(43:25):
Is it, does it all trace back to a single source or is it just, uh is it allopportunistic?
You know, it feels so broad and like it's got all these tentacles as you start to bring itback in though, you get back to your voter list and the illegal aliens that are added to
(43:47):
the voter list, the people that are supposed to oversee that voter list, the Eric system,Electronic Records Information Center, overseen by basically the Democrat get out the vote
people.
um So it starts with the voter lists and those are
Inaccessible.
In Utah, you cannot look at your voter list unconstitutionally.
(44:08):
So we've got a lawsuit, Public Interest Legal Foundation picked up my lawsuit that I hadhad going for several months and they picked that up.
So they're helping to cover the cost of that.
basically the Constitution, the uh Voter Rights Act says that that's public.
That's our list.
It belongs to us.
It doesn't belong to the state.
It belongs to the people.
(44:30):
and that we have a right to see it so that we can verify that it's accurate.
We have universal mail-in ballots, which are essential to the steal, and that's a big partof it.
um Then you've got the verification process that's going on with the clerks and themachines and um just the whole apparatus that tabulates votes and calculates votes.
(44:54):
um
And then no ability to look into that as well.
know, the cast vote record is another really important for me.
I call it like the detailed general ledger from an accountant standpoint.
That's where you can go in and you can look at details, not individual's information.
There's nothing there that would show an individual's vote.
(45:16):
But you can see when the votes came in, where the precincts are, you can start to do somestatistical analysis.
In a statistical analysis, if I want to say, what is the voter turnout in a precinct?
Number one, I need to know how many registered voters there are in the precinct.
Then I need to see how many votes were in that precinct.
Well, they've said, no, you cannot look at the voter list.
You can't look at how many registered voters are in that precinct.
(45:39):
You can't verify them.
And now you can't even look at what I would say is the numerator, um the actual votes thatwere cast in that precinct.
um
And we get a little bit of information.
We do the statistical analysis on that.
And it comes back again, like I said, it comes back indicating some serious, seriousproblems.
And that's the furthest we get.
(46:01):
We go to the courts.
I've spent probably $200,000 this last year and a half on legal expenses, all of themrelated to the election and to exposing those things.
And it's really painful.
And I have a few people that are helping to
cover the costs of very generous people that help with that.
a lot of it's, know, people are digging deep into their own pockets, myself included, butit feels like we have to crack this nut open in order to really look at it.
(46:32):
California, they did a big audit of their voter rolls and um found so many fraudulententries on the voter list rolls, whether it's illegal aliens or dead people or whatever it
might be, all of that becomes
basically the credit line to draw on when you want to affect an election.
(46:54):
And they're saying with the cleanup that they've done in California, California is verylikely to turn red in the next election.
It has a huge effect.
And that just tells you the only reason it's not red now is because of blatant cheating.
Yeah.
Have you, have you spent any time daydreaming about what Utah would look like if slashwhen Trump gets to the bottom of the 2020 election and forces out into the open the fact
(47:18):
that all of the machines are fraudulent?
man, I do.
I think about that all the time.
And what it is, it's that freedom of free markets and people making good decisions fortheir children and freedom to choose your schools and the curriculum.
(47:39):
I think the whole corruption just uh starts to give way to people's better judgment andindividuals better judgment.
You know, it's uh personhood, parenthood and statehood.
Those things are really important.
If you don't understand personhood or parenthood, then you get statehood wrong.
Next thing you know, you're given the federal government authority to control all of yourresources in your state.
(48:05):
It was never designed to be that way.
um But it all serves the pirate class that is intent on plundering the state.
And it's really expensive.
It hurts people.
You get rid of that element, I'm telling you.
It'd be like the kingdom of God restored to the earth.
I, you know, we look forward to that day and I do look forward to it.
(48:29):
Whether we can accomplish it or it's going to take a bigger event, I am.
I think about it a lot.
Yeah.
Well, it's a beautiful picture that you paint and you were talking about the voter rollsbeing basically ground zero for the steel.
And I couldn't agree with you more.
And um Tina had an interesting point.
(48:49):
She said that they should be wiped every, I think she said every one, every year theyshould be wiped every two years.
Are you familiar with Ed Solomon?
He's a mathematician.
His view, I love his view the best and I love
Tina's the best until I heard his, which is no voter rolls.
Show up just like you would if you were gonna get a new phone.
(49:11):
too.
think they do that in Montana or yeah, somebody would say that they don't have voterrolls.
You show up with your driver's license.
yeah, and your utility bill and done and done.
Beautiful.
uh
You know, the way we did elections for so, so many years where you show up on electionday, your vote was cast at the precinct and verified by people who knew who you were
(49:38):
anyway, and it's counted at the precinct level.
And then they report that up to the chain.
by 10 o'clock that night, we have the election results.
The only reason, the only reason to have universal mail-in ballots is for the purpose ofstealing an election.
There's no reason why we have universal mail-in balance.
It's more expensive.
(49:59):
It disrupts the chain of custody and uh really, really kills our system.
ah Since we're talking about Utah as a state, I think about what General Flynn often says,you local action equals national impact.
And I have a friend who's in Maine and he just feels like he's banging his head againstthe wall because he feels the people of the state are so apathetic.
(50:29):
That's not the sense I get from you with Utah.
It sounds like people are pretty activated.
What's moving the needle there for y'all?
um Honestly, is uh kind of getting those people who love honesty and truth talking to eachother.
it's like, you know, like starting that fire from the remaining coals is you put a few ofthose together and pretty soon they strengthen each other.
(50:56):
The best way to keep that from happening is to keep those people from talking to eachother.
so um for me in Utah, it's, I would say we're
in 10%, 15 % of the people that are awake and aware and watching what's going on.
But those people are now talking to each other.
(51:16):
Social media, we say, God bless Elon Musk for keeping us talking to each other throughTwitter.
But social media is powerful and people talking to each other.
It's hard to keep the truth buried forever.
Yeah.
Well, and the Bible says that everything hidden will come to light.
So I'm looking forward to being this many years old whenever everything that's hiddencomes to light.
(51:44):
I don't want to wait very much longer,
I appreciate that so much.
Well, honestly, I appreciate, you know, this program is such a good example of people thatare able to come on and talk about things.
But one thing I have learned, I believe, is patience and faith.
If it happens soon, I'll be happy.
(52:06):
If it takes a long time, I'll be happy.
Somebody else is in charge of that.
We just do our best and God's in charge of the results.
I've become very comfortable with that feeling of, yeah, because He really is in charge.
I've seen such miracles.
(52:26):
I told somebody the other day, I I feel like we've just been tossed along on a river ofmiracles.
And when you look back on your life, and for me, I look back on just my family, my kids,the lessons that they've learned, the values that they have.
And I just think, you know, just...
Believe and do your best and God will do some miracles for us.
(52:50):
I know that's happening.
yeah, it is happening.
You're so right.
Well, where do you go from here?
I was so happy to hear that you have already announced your intention to challenge SpencerCox again or to run for governor again.
So you're remaining in the fight despite all of the efforts to discourage you and to fameyou.
(53:12):
Tell us about that.
So before, in one of the debates ah with Spencer Cox, they said, will you accept theresults of the election?
And I said, I will commit to verify the results of the election, whether I win or lose.
And those words have kind of come back to haunt me because I'm still committed to thatpromise.
I am going to verify the results of that election.
(53:35):
And that means that I don't concede, I don't go away and um
I guess I reserve the right to change my mind about running in 2028, but the answer is,yeah, absolutely I'm running in 2028.
Until something else is, until we learn the truth, yeah, the fight isn't taking meanywhere else besides where I'm at right now.
(54:03):
yeah, I'm in that.
And hoping, honestly, for a off ramp that...
that someone else can take that or that we clean things up before that happens.
Because I am not an office seeker.
(54:24):
I just really believe in government.
I believe in representative government and we should fight for it.
We should.
Well, no offense to your feelings, Phil, but I want you to do it.
I think the people of Utah want you to do it.
So I pray that things come to light between now and then, and uh maybe it'll have to besooner than 2028.
(54:52):
That's my prayer.
I want clean houses long before then.
And ah when you were saying that Spencer Cox wanted you to
say that you would concede the election or admit that the election, know, the results ofthe election that there is a demonic entity that forces all of these uniparty people to
(55:14):
say that I don't understand what it is, but you they say it and I'm like, it's becausethey understand the power of words and they know that words are one and you know, battles
are one and lost in the mind.
And so if you are if you're going to concede it,
If you're here, you know, what does Jesus say?
We um learn by hearing and every word by the mouth of God.
(55:37):
Well, if we if the words that we say inform our mind in a way, right, like if you thinkyou're reading scripture, you're meditating on scripture.
So you would be reinforcing your own your own mindset, I think.
I don't know if I'm making a whole lot of sense here, but I think that that would.
The concession is, I mean, the defeat in the spiritual is just as real.
(55:59):
if not more real than the defeat in the physical.
Anyway, I don't know if that makes sense.
It absolutely makes sense.
And it's so powerful.
And honestly, uh I've got a handful of people close to me, my wife being chief among themwho she just doesn't have the tolerance for.
uh First of all, she doesn't admire cowards.
(56:21):
And second of all, she really expects people to stand up and do the right thing.
so ah it really fortifies you.
And our circle of friends, you know, in politics,
It was kind of shrinking every year and then running for governor.
It's really expanded in a really beautiful way.
We're surrounded by people who feel the same way that you do.
And uh they are believers.
(56:46):
And I had a really spiritual experience in jail.
And I won't go into it, but the message, the words that came to me were, um now is thetime.
Now is my work made manifest and uh kind of like bear witness, know, strengthen yourresolve and bear witness to my ability to accomplish unspeakable good.
(57:15):
I um totally lean on that so much.
And I just think now's the time and it's going to happen and I'm going to watch it.
I'm going to be an observer or a participant or whatever, but
It's something significant is going to take place.
(57:40):
And yeah, I don't want to be a coward.
Yeah, well, you're certainly not.
And I'm just so appreciative for you standing up, saying the truth, whether people think,I don't know what, if people think that people are lunatics, but they love to say it, you
know, maybe they think it, but they surely love to call us conspiracy theorists, rightwing fanatics, lunatics, you know, whatever demeaning words they can use um to basically
(58:10):
silence us, cow us.
um
So I just appreciate your courage and your tenacity because it's so needed in this time.
so few, I mean, in a way, so few people have stood up.
In a way, so, so many people have stood up.
But I think you're right, know?
um Courage begets courage and it takes a central figure to cause, to get a groundswell ofsupport for an idea or for truth or for freedom.
(58:42):
And I think that's what we're living in the midst of.
I mean, it's a great honor and a privilege to be living in this time where I do thinkwe're in 1776 2.0 and how long the war lasts is, you know, is only God knows.
(59:03):
Yeah Yeah, it was great fourth of July celebration and thinking about that, you know He'sjust like because because like you say those people didn't know they didn't know what the
outcome was.
It probably assumed That the odds were were more likely that they would you know be hungas as traders But something inside of him Said, you know liberty or death.
(59:26):
I There's there's not a there's not a there's not a middle
choice there.
So it's not and I tell people that all the time.
This is not my fight.
This is the fight.
is this is the is what we're here for.
So win or lose.
It's it's we we got to be in it.
Yeah, we do.
Well, how can people follow you?
How can people support your commitment to uncover what happened in 2024 in Utah andwhatever work you're doing towards your campaign now?
(59:59):
Social media, my ex post is probably where most of the relevant stuff is.
I do have a website, Lyman for Utah, and that's F-O-R, Lyman, F-O-R, Utah.
It's my governor's page, and there's a lot of governor stuff on there.
I haven't really tried to go and turn that into anything else, but it does have links toarticles and all this information about immigration and the role that it plays in our
(01:00:21):
elections and things like that.
But my ex post, Lyman underscore, no, Phil underscore Lyman.
And yeah, just, yeah, all the social media, Facebook, Instagram.
Awesome.
Well, thank you for taking some time with me today.
It's so lovely getting to chat with you and I will encourage you, please do write thatbook because you have some inside knowledge that I think needs to be more widespread.
(01:00:52):
People need to know what really went down.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel very compelled to do it.
I've sat down and tried my hats off to anybody that can write a book because it's it's noteasy.
But I have I've tried to kind of start start that.
Well, maybe we need to send out a call for some ghost writers so you can sit down and tellyour story.
(01:01:14):
I think people do a great job with that.
know, some people are really great at it.
Yeah, it's true.
Awesome.
Well, God bless you, Phil.
Please um keep me posted and feel free.
You're always welcome here on For the Level of Freedom and the State of Freedom, whereveryou want to give your updates.
Well, thanks again and yeah, yeah, God bless you for doing this and staying with it.
(01:01:41):
And thanks for the encouragement and not for just me, but for, you know, all of thelisteners and yeah, you're awesome.
I'm so grateful.
Thank you, Phil.
We'll talk to you soon.
Have a great afternoon.
Thanks.
See ya.
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