August 22, 2025 • 37 mins
Why do so many disciplined high performers follow “clean eating” rules yet struggle to see real progress? In this episode Ben Olliver, Dr. Taylor Waters, and Ryan Stevens reveal how obsessing over food purity (organic labels, gluten-free choices, nitrate-free meats) creates the illusion of control while pulling focus away from the true drivers of health and performance: calories, protein, movement, and consistency. Learn why quality foods are valuable but secondary, how cheat-day binges backfire, and why flexible structure wins every time.
Chapters
(00:00) Introduction
(03:07) What Does Clean Eating Really Mean?
(06:35) The Downsides of Food Purity Rules
(07:05) Cheat Days vs Daily Moderation
(11:56) Calories and Protein Drive Results, Not Food Labels
(17:17) Why Sustainability Matters More Than Restriction
(23:24) Context and Individual Differences in Nutrition
(31:54) Building a Flexible, Results-Driven Approach
Do you find yourself focusing on food labels instead of fundamentals? Share your perspective in the comments and let’s unpack how this mindset shows up in real life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
When you think of a bodybuildingdiet, the first thing people say
is chicken and rice. When we talk about the clean
eating trap, that's what we're referring to where someone has
omitted all processed food, junkfood, anything which would be
deemed as unhealthy. Because people like to put foods
in a healthy or unhealthy good, bad, good or bad.
And we really try to avoid that because.
(00:21):
If you look at someone who eats a highly processed diet, there
were a 3% greater risk of death from all cause mortality.
Someone who meets the recommended aerobic guidelines,
they have a 30% reduction in allcause mortality.
They tired to like their self worth.
The outcome you want is almost like driven by habits and
(00:42):
intake, nor like a moral choice.I'm Ryan Stevens.
Doctor Taylor Waters, I'm Ben Oliver.
Welcome to the Superhuman show, Yeah?
What's up guys? Welcome to the Superhuman Show
with your host Ben Oliver, joined by the Doc Taylor Waters
and Mr. Ryan Stevens. Today we are talking about the
clean eating trap. And so, as always, we need to
(01:05):
define what we mean by clean eating.
And most people know what this term is now in the in the Bros,
it's it's the bro foods eating, eating the bro diet.
But generally speaking, it's theclean, the clean diet.
And, and when people talk about that, they're talking about
(01:26):
foods which are as unprocessed as possible.
I hate unlike processed versus unprocessed because a potato is
processed like there is a process it's gone through to go
from the dirt to in a bag for you to purchase it and then you
wash it and then you cook it like that's a process.
It's not a continuum, isn't. It yeah.
And so I would say the less processed foods like you could,
(01:49):
you could use the term like morenatural foods.
Yeah, that's sort of the way that I lean in.
It is like natural, isn't it? Yeah.
And then, you know, even then it's like, but is it natural?
You know all the pesticides and things and it's, and then you go
organic and it, it's like a, it's a rabbit hole.
Organic is not the buzzword I use, but yeah, people only from
the ground. You hear some people saying you
talk about clean eating. Yeah, and it's so, so we're,
(02:11):
we're talking about, you know, the, the, the, the chicken, egg,
beef, fish, fruits and vegetables, basic starches like
oats, rice, potato. You know, when you think of a
bodybuilding diet, the first thing people say is chicken and
rice. And so when we talk about the
clean eating kind of trap, that's what we're referring to
(02:33):
where someone has omitted all processed food, junk food,
anything which would be deemed as unhealthy because people like
to put foods in a healthy or unhealthy bad, good or bad.
And, and we, you know, we reallytry to avoid that because food
is just food. It's not good or bad.
(02:55):
There's certain foods which are conducive for some situations.
There's certain foods which aren't conducive for situations.
You could say pizza is an unhealthy food.
If I have a anorexic kid and theonly food they like is pizza.
Pizza is the best food on the planet for that person and
because it's providing protein, carbs, fat, salt and calories
(03:19):
and so. Hey, Chuck some pineapple.
On it, yeah, a little bit of fruit fibre.
It's good now and so. You don't like fibre?
If if but this this is what I really dislike when people put
foods in these categories with 0context and it feels like no one
should be eating pizza, no one should be drinking like using
dairy. Everyone should be eating this.
I think there's, there's so muchnuance to it.
(03:41):
Yeah. Do you know?
Do you? Know what I often find as well
is like, they'll be like, oh, I don't eat processed foods where
it's like, you got like a protein shake.
Yeah, chocolate, a blueberry flavoured protein.
Shake just so you drink a a strawberry lemonade pre workout
Yeah. And it's like that come from a a
powdered tub. Yeah.
And you know, everyone takes electrolytes.
It's like, well that that that salt doesn't just magically
appear free freeze dried coffee.Yeah, yeah.
(04:03):
I think it's quite common thoughwith like our clientele, like
high performance. I hear a lot of them saying like
clean eating, yeah, you know, and I think like it is quite
simple to follow clear rule structure.
Yeah, gives the illusion of control.
Yeah, I think there's a, it's almost like, you know, when you
think of like a high achiever, they like to be, you know,
they're they're they're almost like a superior.
Like I'm up. And then it's like clean eating.
(04:25):
It's like, oh, I don't eat that stuff.
Like, yeah, you guys eat that stuff because you're down there.
I'm I'm a high achiever. I eat clean.
Like it gives you this level of like superiority.
Like I have a good diet. I have a clean diet.
I don't eat eat junk food. Pretty.
Much and it's, it's one of thosethings where you know, there is
massive advantages for prioritizing Whole Foods,
(04:49):
unprocessed foods in your diet from a micronutrient standpoint,
from a satiety standpoint, from a simplicity standpoint when it
comes to preparing your meals. But then also there are
downsides to it where if you aren't used to eating like that,
then it's a huge shift and you might get certain cravings for
other other foods which you've deemed as bad.
(05:10):
And so you've kicked them out your diet.
Travelling can be tricky to to find kind of unprocessed foods
like lean proteins and things because any restaurant you know
is using oil or kind of certain flavourings or something which
might increase the calories and be classed as not not clean.
So you know, it, it can be limiting there.
I think from a just a long term sustainability approach with a
(05:36):
diet, I think there's advantagesto including some, you know,
again, like more processed foods.
It can be very hard to get enough calories in with a clean
diet. If you're a endurance athlete or
if you have a very fast metabolism, if you're just
pounding potatoes and rice all day, you can get digestive
(05:58):
issues from a food volume standpoint and that's where more
processed sugar based foods, youknow, more palatable foods can
be beneficial. From a salt standpoint, that's
one that I found is like in a fat loss phase where I lean into
what you would consider very clean foods is I drink a lot of
water, I sweat a lot and then I eat very like low sodium foods
(06:22):
and I find I'm like I'm crampinga lot or I or I feel like
dehydrated even though I'm drinking a lot And I'm like,
that's, that's one thing that I found with it.
I think like the biggest thing is just like real world
practicality, like in like originally, people will think
like I'm, I'm empowered by this,but then there'll always be a
situation come up where that'll be restrictive, just like the
examples you have given. And then that leads to I've
(06:45):
failed. It's like because in their mind,
from people I speak to, they're either eating clean eating or
they're failing. And it's like, it doesn't work
like that. It's a continuum.
It's. Very common for for people that
do clean eating diets to then have a cheat day or a a day
where they eat the junk food andwhatever.
And when you add up all of the junk they eat in that one day,
(07:05):
if they just had a chocolate barevery day, they'd be consuming
less junk food across the week. They're almost like building a
list in their head across the week of like, Oh, here's what
I'm going to eat on my cheat day.
And it's like, you look at that day and you're like, that's
fucking disgusting. Like that's so much, you know,
no one needs a dozen doughnuts, but you've but equally, if you
just had one doughnut a day, that's seven, you know, that's
(07:27):
not a dozen. And, and so little things like
that where it, it's you can convince yourself that you're
eating clean and, and all this stuff, but it's like, but once a
week you're really going ham on,on some stuff which you would
class as not clean. It's one of those things, isn't
it, where like, they'll, they'lltell you all like why they're
eating clean with and then they'll go, oh, yeah.
(07:48):
But on a Saturday when I'm out with my friends in the pub and a
party, it doesn't count then. And you drink out the whole lot
of pizzas, like, oh, it's all right.
Yeah, you. Know, but I think that that's
literally what it does. Like when you think about what
you know, a lot of our work is from a body composition
standpoint, it creates the illusion that what they're doing
is going to get them to the goal.
Because it's like, I guess again, what they do is they'll
(08:08):
look at, say someone who is shredded and they generally do
eat quite clean, but it's they're they're missing the
point is what it is is given thenutrition targets that they've
got, eating those types of foodssupports those numbers most of
the time. So they naturally will lean into
those types of foods, but it's not because they're eating
(08:31):
clean. They're in the shape that they
are. It's the, they're nailing their
nutrition numbers and it's the, those foods that will generally
associate with, with, with thosenumbers.
So what it does, people just go up.
Like how often do you have an onboarding call with a client
and they're like, you know, say they're 40 lbs overweight or
whatever. And it's like things I do eat
clean. And it's what they've done is
(08:52):
again, it's creating this illusion that I'm doing good.
I'm, I'm, I'm eating the foods that I should be eating.
And then it's like, yeah, but itdoesn't hold that much weight.
You basically you're just eatingas you know, you do eat a lot of
natural foods, but it doesn't mean anything.
Well, it doesn't mean much in the setting of body composition
at least. They tie it to like their self
(09:13):
worth right? When really like on onboarding
calls, you can have a conversation, just say well the
outcome you want is almost like driven by habits and intake, no
like a moral choice. Yeah, do you know what I mean?
Yeah, so. It is strange, isn't it?
Like you'll see, you know, say now you see with like females
and two females will go for lunch and one of them wants the
bigger. But then the mate goes, I'll
(09:33):
have a salad. Yeah.
And they're just like you bitch,like you've done.
You're trying to be better than me.
Yeah. Because you've had the salad and
I want the bigger. So then it's like I'll have a
salad as well. Yeah.
Yeah. No, it's like, but there's like,
there's like morality that's tied to the food.
And if you have the clean food, you're suddenly like a good
(09:53):
person. Yeah, you're a good person.
If you eat like a broccoli, you're a bad person, obviously.
So what I do, I'll have a biggerand then I donate to charity
then fine. Yeah, it makes I feel better
than. I eat, eat.
No laughing. Equally there you can have the
say like someone that's overweight that says like, I eat
clean food and maybe they do, they literally eat organic,
grass fed, gluten free, like whatever.
(10:14):
But they're still 40 lbs overweight.
And they have a friend that eats, you know, pop Tarts, kids
cereal, McDonald's, and they're in shape and they go, oh, you
know, they're, they're just lucky they've got a good
metabolism, but it's understanding the fundamentals
of, well, they're probably stilleating low calorie.
Like, yeah, they do eat pop Tarts, but they they take a bite
of 1 and then it's left by the side and they take three days to
(10:34):
eat it. And versus you're eating rib
eyes every night and even thoughit's grass fed, you're eating 80
grams of fat, you know, in in one meal.
Yeah. And.
Just in 80 grams of oil. Yeah, and this is where people
can fall it it, it's like when you talk about finances and you
say, you know, just focus on spending a bit less and saving a
bit more. It will work.
(10:55):
If you've done nothing, if you've gone from eating, you
know, just with like 0 limitations with your diet to
now you've, you're eating more fruits, you're eating more
vegetables, you're eating lean proteins, you're trying to eat
as unprocessed as possible. You're very likely going to lose
weight and put yourself in a calorie deficit because those
(11:15):
foods are higher in volume. You're going to feel stuffed.
You're not going to eat as much.You're eating enough protein,
you're getting your fiber M thatwill work to a point.
And then you're stuck with this situation of like, well, I need
to eat even cleaner. And then maybe you take out salt
or, you know, you, you double down on the organic and you go
gluten free and you're like, it's still not working.
(11:35):
And it's like cleaner. And it's like, well, at what
point do you get to the point it's like, you can't go any
cleaner. You're just eating too much.
And, and that's where you don't have to go through that extreme.
And you can still include those other foods and say, yeah, you
can eat them in moderation. And we'd, but we have to
understand what's driving the weight loss or fat loss in the
1st place, which is the, the calories.
(11:57):
And so once we can say, like I really like Alan Aragon's
approach at the 8020 rule, like,you know, you, you should
prioritize unprocessed foods, Whole Foods, single ingredient
foods, whatever you want to callthem for like, you know, 70 to
80% of your diet. The other 20%, So you're talking
maybe 400 calories a day, 500 calories a day.
What you want like you know, if if you've already hit your
(12:18):
protein needs for the day, you've got your fiber intake,
you've had your fruits, you've had your vegetables.
If you want to have a slice of pizza with your salad, how about
it like that's going to keep cravings lower.
It allows you to eat the foods that you enjoy.
If if you don't particularly enjoy the kind of Whole Foods
and things it, it will keep youradherence higher long term.
So much more than trying to omitpizza.
(12:41):
You know how many bodybuilders you know they gained 30 lbs
after the show because they haven't had a cheat day, a cheat
meal. They don't incorporate those
foods into their plan. Like I understand at the end of
a prep, you know, you're pretty much limited anyway.
But they almost go so extreme with their food limitations that
the moment they get a taste of chocolate or pizza or
(13:04):
cheesecake, the floodgates open.And even if if their coach said
every day, I want you to have 200 calories of cheesecake, like
that's your favorite food, I want you to have it every day
after the show. They don't want cheesecake.
So I've had it every day. Like I've had Oreos every day,
like I don't need them now. And it's so I think it really is
important to try and incorporatethose foods within reason to
(13:27):
your plan. And again, like we spoke about
women, they have a lower calorierequirement.
Generally they're going to be able to incorporate less stuff
or in smaller portions. And yeah, it's not fair, but
that's just the way it goes. One of the things I like to do
when someone says like they eat clean and stuff and I like
you'll often see they're not getting the outcome that they
want. Like they're 40 lbs overweight
or whatever. And you can just simply say
(13:48):
like, well, how is your clean eating diet working for you?
Because you're 40 lbs overweight.
And you'll often see that when they're in their environment at
home, yes, they can eat those foods that they like to eat.
But then they'll travel, they'llgo to a social event, and this
is where their rules and structure doesn't apply.
And they'll go off plan. They'll feel like they're
failing. It's like, right, well, this is
clearly not working for you. You're not getting the outcome
(14:09):
that you want, however clean thefoods are.
So are you open to trying something else?
Yeah. And that's how you start
introducing like other foods andstuff then.
I think one of the most like, I don't want to say controversial,
but like debated things is the majority of research.
If someone's overweight and theyhave high risk factors of
coronary heart disease, high blood pressure, you know, all
all of these like what's the other one?
(14:31):
What's the other really common one?
Diabetes, The just losing the body fat, regardless of how you
do it improves all of those markers.
And I think this is where peopleget their pants in a bunch where
they'll say, you know, you, you should, if you lose weight
eating nothing but sugar, for example, like you're going to
become diabetic. And, and again, all of the
(14:53):
research shows that's not the case.
Like if you lose the body fat and get your body fat into a
healthy range, what is deemed, you know, by BMI or whatever it
is, all of your health markers improve, whether that's you do
fasting, whether that's you do keto, whether that's you do high
carb, low fat, a body wound diet, a protein only diet, a
vegan diet. Like if you drop the excess body
(15:15):
fat, health markers improve, then you'll get to a point in
diminishing returns where maybe your diet starts hurting you,
You might be deficient in certain micronutrients, your
energy levels tank because you're on a keto diet, all of
these things. And that's where you can start
to kind of fine tune things. But it's almost like a, like a
peak in a through where there's this point of like maximum
return. But I, I think this is where
(15:37):
again, people will say when theywere like, I, I'm you, you
recommend maybe a convenient food because they're travelling
like, hey, like pick up some deli ham or something like super
easy protein, don't have to prepit.
And they go, no, it's got nitrates in.
I'm not, I'm not going to have that.
And I'm like, you're fucking £250.
Like the, the ham ain't hurting you.
And it's like, you know, no, I only eat the organic chicken
(16:00):
breasts. It's like you don't because you
wouldn't be 250 lbs otherwise, but.
What happens when it's cheat day?
Oh, well, I'm going to hammer doughnuts.
Yeah. Yeah.
Suddenly the the ham was not a good idea on Tuesday, but the
doughnuts are now a phenomenal idea.
Or it's like, or like booze. People go out and they're like,
they're blasting lagers or wine and it's like, but you're
worried what the plastics in your in your ham.
(16:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't worry about it.
It's diverting your attention. It is not the face.
Like, yeah. And it's, you know, if you want
to be aware of those things, then it's like, it's fine.
But it's like, move the big rocks first.
If you, you know, if your body fat is looking really good, your
energy levels are good, you're looking for the edge.
And then you can say, you know, I think I'm going to like sub my
daily meat out for some organic chicken breast.
(16:43):
I'm like, Hey, like, great idea.You know, you've earned the
right to kind of be concerned with those things if that's
something that you want to go down.
Like personally, I'm not bothered by it.
And maybe I'd, maybe I'd die younger because of it.
And but I I would rather enjoy my life with ham, you know, than
than eat nothing but organic meat And, and that kind of.
I can tell you something, the hospitals ain't flooded because
of nitrates. I.
(17:04):
Can tell you, yeah. You're right or like you know
your fruit that's not organic and it's like no one, no one's
getting admitted because they ate non organic apples.
I saw a thing that I can't remember the exact figures off
the top of my head, but it was basically like if you look at
someone who eats a highly processed diet, there were a 3%
(17:26):
greater risk of death from all 'cause mortality.
Whereas if you see someone who meets the recommended aerobic
guidelines, they have a like 30%reduction in all 'cause
mortality. So it's that you see people like
worrying about like, and that's someone who eats like a highly
ultra processed diet. So like, and then you've got
(17:48):
someone worrying about like a bit of processed ham, but even
if you like like sugary sodas and all this other stuff, only a
3% increased risk, which is, youknow, it's not great, but it's
not. But then you ask them to do what
about going for a walk suddenly?But you got.
A 30% return on investment there, you got a 3% return on
(18:09):
investment there. You're not even doing it
properly. So it's like, you know, it's
these things when you actually look at it like that, that's 10X
more important than that, but you're not even willing to look
at that yet. You're making this sound like a
real high up on the priority. And it's like just because, but
again, it's that clean eating it.
(18:30):
I don't know why, but it gives you that level of, of even like
as a fitness coach, like I've been out with people for food
and like, you'll order the pizzaand they're like, hold on a
second. Yeah, yeah.
Like, you know, they're almost like, oh, like you're, you're a
fraud. Yeah, yeah.
Take your eyeballs off me. Yeah.
In. The last eight weeks, the
(18:51):
majority of your diet has been chicken and berries.
And it's like if I have pizza, then I'll.
Have pizza. It's like I'm like sitting here,
relatively lean, very active, decent shape, and like you'll
sat there like 30 lbs overweightand sedentary and loves booze,
yet you're turning your nose up at me.
It's always, it's always someonethat's in worse shape.
It's like if, if I had to generalize, like the type of
(19:13):
clients that focus on the the minutiae that doesn't really
matter. It's all of the clients that
have that are not getting any progress and they're not hitting
their calories, they're not getting their steps and they're
not getting their workouts in. And they use this, these things
is like procrastination, like, oh, what do you think about
saunas? And it's like, what do you think
about walking? Like, like, oh, what do you,
(19:35):
what do you think about like removing gluten from my diet?
I was like, what do you think about like portioning anything?
And it's, it's like you're, you're asking me what I think
about all of these things. And it's like we're we're
avoiding the deeper kind of problem, which is like, I'm
like, what do you think about doing anything to change?
And they're like, no, I'm not going to do that, but I'm going
(19:56):
to pick your brain on what do you think about TRT?
Yeah. And it's like, hey, like your
test levels will double when youlose 50 lbs.
Like it's just. Total avoidance of the real
work. Yeah, it is.
Think going from like a businessstandpoint, saying how you're
selling a product and the reviews on the product are
coming back and they're trash. You're giving refunds
everywhere. Everyone's hating the product.
(20:18):
It's not. It's not doing what it's
supposed to do. And you all sit down for a
business meeting and someone goes, right, guys in the office
and we go in red pens or black pens.
And you're like. Yeah.
Me. What's going on here?
Let's start stuff the pens. I think we should get some
comfier chairs in here. And it's like what?
Are you like what? Like what?
What are we doing? You're there in like 2 mil debt.
(20:39):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it, it's, it's that.
And I because again, it's, it's much easier because, you know,
even if people are reading things online about supplements
or diets and things, they convince themselves that they're
doing work on themselves becausethey're thinking about their
diet, but they're not actually doing anything to to help them
it. Makes them it makes them feel
(21:00):
better in the moment, and then as soon as that goes, they'll
look for something else that doesn't require any.
If I if I look. At better Again.
If I look at my guys that have got in the best shape and
maintained it, all of them are probably around like a 7030
split of they eat chicken, vegetables, fruits, eggs.
They also use protein shakes, protein bars, beef jerky.
(21:22):
They have some cheesecake now and again.
They go to Wendy's. They have a milkshake.
Like they, they do all of this stuff as well, but it's, it's
all in moderation. And it, it's like, I don't, I
don't have a single guy that's all, all girls that's shredded
and in shape that eats like, Nope, I do organic, gluten free,
none of this stuff. And they, they all enjoy those
things because they understand for me to maintain this, I gotta
(21:44):
keep some sanity and and keep these these foods in in
rotation. Yeah.
What I often find is, well, those same people that talk
about like clean eating, becauseobviously what we refer to is
like more of a flexible approach.
But if you speak about a flexible approach, then they
just think like in your example,when you order the pizza, that's
all you eat every day. Yeah.
And then clean eating is like chicken and.
Breast all or nothing. Yeah, it's all or nothing
thinking and that's where. You're either trying to fit pop
(22:05):
tarts and and protein powder in your macros or you're doing a
bro diet. It's a well, there is, there is
this massive scale or like continuum in between these two
things. But again, people tend to just
view everything in life as blackor white.
Like you're either you're eitherleft or you're right.
You're either, you know, bro, food or not, you're either
carnival or you're vegan. And if someone's like, I'm an
(22:27):
omnivore, it's like, oh, you're a fucking loser.
It's like pick a side bro. You're also, yeah.
Yeah, but it's the moderation isn't sexy and it doesn't sell,
but it wins every time. And I'd rather be a winner.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's it's, you know, the the
philosophies that we try to educate and preach to our
(22:49):
clients is moderation with thesefoods and, and just education on
the sense of here are the benefits to these foods.
Here's when they can be useful. Here's where they might not be
useful. Here's the downside of these
foods. Here's the upside of these
foods. Now you can make an educated
decision. We can collect feedback, we can
(23:10):
have a conversation about it andthen we can adjust.
Like that's, that's all what it comes down to it.
And I think people really, they really overcomplicate the whole
thing. And because again, it, it's
maybe it's boredom, maybe it's like that, that elitism or kind
of wanting to be advanced. And it's like, no, I need, I
need this for my body type and, and these kind of things.
(23:33):
And you know, like, look at, look at you, right?
Like it's like you've been in shape now for the last 15 years
and you know, and how do you now34?
Same age as you? Yeah, I think.
Yeah, I always forget. 33 I don't you don't we you you, you
relevant for this 34. 34 I thought it was 3334 now Jesus.
But like, you know, since, sinceI've known you, you know, which
(23:55):
was like when we were what, 1920You've been in shape and I've, I
don't think I've ever seen you kind of be like, no, I like, I
don't eat those foods that bad for me and stuff.
It's you've always incorporated those again, quote UN quote,
unhealthy foods in your diet, but you're meticulous with your
calorie tracking and you're always, you know, not hitting it
(24:18):
to the exact calorie, but in thein the range and you're just
dead consistent. And that's like, people would
kill to have that shape year round.
But instead they'll even if you said to them, yeah, I eat ice
cream a couple times a week. You know, I I had pizza the
other night and I do this. They'll go, huh, They still
won't do it. And they're like, Nope, I need
(24:38):
this. Well, I've seen Sean Baker talk
about carnivores, so I need to do that.
And it's like he looks better than Sean if you're basing it
off physiques. Like you should.
Probably use this approach well think like.
If I had to list Ryan's favorite.
Foods, Ham, Apple. And grapes.
He liked ham Apple, but he I know he loves the Ben and
Jerry's Anna Haagen Daz. I know he loves.
I know he loves lager. IPA.
(24:59):
And he loves the Oreos as well. So like, so he loves ham, he
loves apples, he likes lager, helikes Oreos, he likes Ben and
Jerry's. That's not that's not bad
balance. If anything you've got more junk
than good. But then if you look at the
actual quantity, 90% of your diet comes great.
I'll balance. It out with the grains as.
Well, it's, it's, it's fruit andlean protein and then kind of
(25:23):
fill in the gaps with, you know,whatever you want.
Yeah. And that's it, isn't it?
Because like, basically we're looking for consistency over
time, something that's sustainable.
So someone who's like clean eating, they're only going to be
able to do that. They won't even last the week.
It's like, but it's also, it's consistency with what matters
because you can be a consistent clean eater.
Some people will eat clean for 10 years, but again, they're
(25:44):
still not in shape because they're clean eating too much
peanut butter, they're clean eating too much avocados, too
many rib eyes, too many potatoes.
Therefore they're out of shape. So it's like you're you can,
even if you did find a way to beconsistent with the clean
eating, you're still being consistent with something that
isn't the thing that's moving the needle.
(26:05):
Yeah, it's something that's taking your distraction, you
know, you. Have to understand the
underlying principles like intake I.
Mean yeah and it's you know you see it the same thing with
training where it's like, hey, what do you think about the
strength curve on this versus this?
And it's like, have you tried training hard?
Like first it's like you're worrying about the minutiae
where and you're jumping around on different training programs,
but you haven't even understood basic technique and proper
(26:27):
training intensity. And it's the same thing with
food. It's like you're you're worrying
about the the technique and the sets and the reps, but you
haven't understood that the driving thing is training hard.
Yeah. And it's, it's like you haven't
understood the premise of, of nutrition is, is calorie intake
and eating enough protein? Such a good example like those
two because training hard is really difficult.
(26:47):
Yeah. And when you're like in a depth
it being hungry is uncomfortable.
So you will do anything to avoidthose things.
It's like, oh what do you think about the strength curve on this
lap pole down? It's like just put 4 plates on
it and RIP it for twins. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's and it's the same when
you start dieting, you're like, I'm a bit hungry and you're
like, I need to shuffle my macros around like I need to.
Maybe I need to do a low carb approach because I'm feeling
hungry and it's like. Or you just suck it up.
(27:10):
Yeah, I need to refeed, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you'll you'll
convince. Yourself.
This is where social media comesin though, and it's like the
reels with with training like This is why you haven't got a
big chest. And it's like, because what you
got to do, you got to make sure that you're driving your elbow
across this way. And it's like, no, you got you
because you haven't trained hardall very long.
Here's why you. Haven't got a big chest because
(27:30):
you're six months into your training career and you haven't
got any muscle. Yet and you train like a pussy
yeah that'd be the one good thatone but the same from a diet
standpoint it's like this food is killing you and then it'll go
into some like you know the the chemicals within this food
Whereas if they went if you wantto get in shape you you're going
to track your nutrition quite meticulously for the next two
(27:51):
years and you're going to reallystart to learn about what what
what balance looks like for you as an individual and then you're
going to try these different foods and and you're going to go
through Oh no, I don't want. To watch that this is too much
the the thing I shared with you of Alex Fiado and he's like, oh
and he's shredded year round andhe's like, yeah, I just figured
(28:11):
I put together my top five listsof like foods to avoid for 2026.
If you want to be shredded. And it's like 1 car battery and
then it's like just these like random objects like don't eat
these things but it's but it's like it's obviously in in jest,
but it it's got that underlying kind of meaning of like just
don't overthink it like I think you know if if there was a
(28:33):
people are still chasing the hack of well, if I avoid gluten,
I'm suddenly going to drop 20 lbs of body fat.
If I, you know eat X food, then this is going to have this
effect. If I avoid yellow 20 and and red
46, like I'm never going to get sick again.
And it's like, no, you probably will.
But if you keep your calories incheck consistently, you get your
(28:57):
body fat to a decent level. Then if you want to play around
with food choices to and you know, and again, track data of
how do you feel? How are your energy levels?
How's your digestion? How's your sleep like the food,
the types of foods you eat will impact all of those things.
And again, people will look at this and saying that we're we're
shitting on clean food. And by no means we're we're not
doing that one bit where it's you need to take a look at,
(29:20):
well, how do you feel with the foods that you're eating?
And if you're like, yeah, I feelreally good, but all day I'm
just struggling and I'm crave these things.
Then there's the conversation of, well, how long do you think
you can sustain this then? And what's going to happen when
you break? And so it's, it's, there's a,
it's so individual. Well, you know, I, I've got,
(29:40):
I've got one client where I'd say 80% of his food is, is
protein shakes, protein powders,things like that.
Looks phenomenal. Blood work, outstanding energy
levels through the roof, digestion on point, sleep
perfect. Cool.
If I ate that diet, I would probably take 19 shits a day.
Like, but that's like, but at nopoint am I going to go to him
(30:02):
like that's a terrible diet. Because if I did it, I would, I
would suck. It's like amazed, like you found
the thing that's worked for you and that's through two years of
collecting data and you giving feedback and making the
adjustments and me having a little bit of input.
And now we found this sweet spotfor someone else.
It might be like, yeah, we probably need to eat like a
(30:23):
pretty low fat diet and mainly unprocessed foods because
whenever you eat junk, you know,digestion goes off, You sleep
like share we get massive water retention.
Sorry, bro, like we're probably going to have to keep diet a bit
cleaner, but it's to to say there's one-size-fits-all and
everyone should be in a certain way.
I just think is so false becauseno, no one like yes, we all kind
(30:44):
of, you know, it's calories and calories out.
There's there's some underlying principles for everyone, but
everyone's different in the samebreath.
That's it like moderation. And that's where like some
people say, you've just got to eat in moderation.
Moderation looks a little bit different to most people as
well. And it's like like what?
What moderates Ryan well might not moderate me.
(31:06):
Well, like your guy has almost found what moderation looks like
for him. He's found a way that he can eat
that allows him to reach his goals.
He looks good, feels good, sleeps well, functions well and
blood work's good. Like he's getting all the things
he wants from his diet and that happens to be pretty processed
to a degree. Whereas like again, that's not
(31:29):
what moderation would look like for say me.
I know for me to walk around a little bit leaner, I've got to
eat a lot more fruits and vegetables to keep myself full
because if I eat too many highlyprocessed foods, I generally get
pretty hungry. But it's like, but that's,
that's just what moderation might look like for me.
So it's important as well when people say you've just got to
eat in moderation, you don't know what moderation is.
(31:52):
You just, you know, roughly. And because again, there's only
so many ways a diet can vary, like you think, oh, moderation,
like you should have a bit of this.
You shouldn't restrict from this.
You should have you track the information for two to three
years. You learn, you get feedback.
By the end of the three years, you will know what your
moderation looks like. Yeah, and now you've won the
game. And now you can carry on for the
(32:13):
rest of your life. It's like, you ask, you know,
someone could say, oh, you know,I take out in moderation and
then they go, I eat it four times a week and you're like
fucking moderation. Like that's, that's way too.
Much your perception of moderation is different.
Exactly. You're comparing it to something
because maybe they used to eat it twice a day.
Yeah. And say, well, that is pretty
moderate compared to what you were doing.
Yeah. And same thing with training
volume. But yeah, moderate volume, like
(32:34):
50 sets A muscle group. You're like what?
It's like, no, but I've come from a, you know, a elite
athlete background where we weredoing 3A days.
Oh, that's pretty moderate. And so it's like, it's very,
very contextual. But this, this is what we, you
know, the, the thing that I wantto kind of drive home is, is
context is everything. Like when you understand the
(32:54):
context, then you can make an informed decision.
But to say blanket statements with 0 context is it's just
flawed because there's there's you can get two situations where
the recommendations for each of the polar opposite and the
outcome might be the same. Like health markers improve body
fat drops down one's on a keto diet, one's on a on a a no fat
(33:17):
diet. Outcomes are the same.
Both super happy, got everythingthey want.
Like the only thing we're biasedtowards is results.
Like I have no affinity to a a type of diet.
We can look at the evidence fromyears of working with people
saying this. This way tends to work and be
very effective for most people based on environment, behaviors,
(33:40):
habits, practicality. Well, that doesn't mean that
this is going to work for you. Like in it's like when we get to
know each other and we look at your day-to-day and your
feedback and stuff, then we tailor it to you.
That's what it comes down to. Well, this is what we say, don't
we? We start with a plan and we
adjust it based on the feedback we get.
We'll tailor it as we go. When you say about not being
married to a certain diet, it's like I got one of my one of my
(34:00):
guys has been diagnosed with heart, heart disease.
And he was like, Oh, I'm I want to go plant based because I've
read that plant based will help with his with his diet.
And I was like, I just explainedto Miles that you don't need to
go plant based to help with yourheart disease.
Like there's you can still eat some animal products and things
and still move in the right direction.
(34:23):
But also I was like, but if but he was like, I I could tell he
really wanted to go plant based.He's obviously read something
and he had something that reallyis motivating him to go plant
based. So I was like, sound.
Yeah, let's go. I was like it.
It's it doesn't. I don't mind if you want to go
plant based or not. I'm just saying you don't need
to like based on the informationthat I know of, you don't need
to go plant based to solve to well, at least help this
problem. But I was like, but if you're
(34:44):
motivated to go plant based, we can also try and solve the
problem by going plant based as well.
So we see where you want to go. But it's like the things like
reducing your body weight and doing more aerobic activity,
they're still going to be there whether you go plant based or
not. The plant based for me, I'm just
looking at that like a personal preference, like sound.
And also if you went against him, you probably would have
(35:05):
butt heads and he was probably going to do.
It anyway, so if I tell him he'snot going plant based, he'd
probably leave the program. Yeah.
So I'm like, work with him, collect data, it might work and
he might be happy. Yeah, if he, if he can reverse
the problem and go plant based, fine.
If if he decides plant based is not for him and we can still
solve the problem, fine. Again, like my main thing is
trying to make sure that he lives longer.
There's the plan, there's. There's just too many variables
(35:28):
to factor in. Like even if you look, if you
look at most of the research from a longevity standpoint, it
seems to be the Mediterranean style diet reign supreme.
But you can also look at it and say, well, what else do those
people do in their day? What's their stress levels like?
What's there? How many hours a week do they
work? Like are the majority of them
married with kids? Like where do they live?
(35:49):
What's the weather like? And like all of these variables
also impact your health. And so it's like olives and
olive oil, baby. But it's like, well, they live
like, you know, there's nice scenery.
You know they take siestas. Ocean sizes small, yeah, but you
have 4 olives and a drizzle of olive oil.
Not like. Oh, there we go then.
Yeah. So there's like there's so many
variables to it. So like there really is not a
(36:12):
one-size-fits-all approach. There's there's principles and
and certain philosophies that would like we can use as a
starting template, but it it does just come down to the
individual needs of the client. And so like if I, you know,
summing this one up in terms of the cleaning, if you feel like
you've been stuck in that and you've tried to keep your foods
too, quote UN quote healthy and you the craves and things are
(36:35):
starting to settle in, don't be afraid to incorporate some of
those other foods. Just, you know, if you're
working with a coach, talk to them about it and just try it.
Like just collect feedback from yourself.
Look at energy levels, digestion, sleep, performance,
and if you feel good and it lowers the cravings, great.
But I, I think, I think overall people need to stop obsessing so
(36:59):
much about the, the, these kind of little things before the big
rocks have been moved. So that's not for me to say.
Don't worry about chemicals in your food.
Don't worry about this. Like, no, no, no.
There is a time and a place for that.
But if you're 50 lbs overweight and you haven't yet done
anything and you're worrying about the gluten or dairy or
(37:21):
something in your diet, focus onthe big rocks 1st and then that
stuff will come afterwards. Mic drop.
Love that. Boom.
I would drop. I would drop it.
Yeah, mic drop. But also, guys, thank you as
always for tuning in. Be sure to like and subscribe on
iTunes, Spotify and YouTube. We'll see you next time.
If you love this show, please like, share and leave us a five
(37:42):
star review so that we can help more people.
I'm John Matson, reminding you to always go get what's yours.
When you think of a bodybuildingdiet, the first thing people say
is chicken and rice. When we talk about the clean
eating trap, that's what we're referring to where someone has
omitted all processed food, junkfood, anything which would be
deemed as unhealthy. Because people like to put foods
in a healthy or unhealthy good, bad, good or bad.
And we really try to avoid that because.
(00:21):
If you look at someone who eats a highly processed diet, there
were a 3% greater risk of death from all cause mortality.
Someone who meets the recommended aerobic guidelines,
they have a 30% reduction in allcause mortality.
They tired to like their self worth.
The outcome you want is almost like driven by habits and
(00:42):
intake, nor like a moral choice.I'm Ryan Stevens.
Doctor Taylor Waters, I'm Ben Oliver.
Welcome to the Superhuman show, Yeah?
What's up guys? Welcome to the Superhuman Show
with your host Ben Oliver, joined by the Doc Taylor Waters
and Mr. Ryan Stevens. Today we are talking about the
clean eating trap. And so, as always, we need to
(01:05):
define what we mean by clean eating.
And most people know what this term is now in the in the Bros,
it's it's the bro foods eating, eating the bro diet.
But generally speaking, it's theclean, the clean diet.
And, and when people talk about that, they're talking about
(01:26):
foods which are as unprocessed as possible.
I hate unlike processed versus unprocessed because a potato is
processed like there is a process it's gone through to go
from the dirt to in a bag for you to purchase it and then you
wash it and then you cook it like that's a process.
It's not a continuum, isn't. It yeah.
And so I would say the less processed foods like you could,
(01:49):
you could use the term like morenatural foods.
Yeah, that's sort of the way that I lean in.
It is like natural, isn't it? Yeah.
And then, you know, even then it's like, but is it natural?
You know all the pesticides and things and it's, and then you go
organic and it, it's like a, it's a rabbit hole.
Organic is not the buzzword I use, but yeah, people only from
the ground. You hear some people saying you
talk about clean eating. Yeah, and it's so, so we're,
(02:11):
we're talking about, you know, the, the, the, the chicken, egg,
beef, fish, fruits and vegetables, basic starches like
oats, rice, potato. You know, when you think of a
bodybuilding diet, the first thing people say is chicken and
rice. And so when we talk about the
clean eating kind of trap, that's what we're referring to
(02:33):
where someone has omitted all processed food, junk food,
anything which would be deemed as unhealthy because people like
to put foods in a healthy or unhealthy bad, good or bad.
And, and we, you know, we reallytry to avoid that because food
is just food. It's not good or bad.
(02:55):
There's certain foods which are conducive for some situations.
There's certain foods which aren't conducive for situations.
You could say pizza is an unhealthy food.
If I have a anorexic kid and theonly food they like is pizza.
Pizza is the best food on the planet for that person and
because it's providing protein, carbs, fat, salt and calories
(03:19):
and so. Hey, Chuck some pineapple.
On it, yeah, a little bit of fruit fibre.
It's good now and so. You don't like fibre?
If if but this this is what I really dislike when people put
foods in these categories with 0context and it feels like no one
should be eating pizza, no one should be drinking like using
dairy. Everyone should be eating this.
I think there's, there's so muchnuance to it.
(03:41):
Yeah. Do you know?
Do you? Know what I often find as well
is like, they'll be like, oh, I don't eat processed foods where
it's like, you got like a protein shake.
Yeah, chocolate, a blueberry flavoured protein.
Shake just so you drink a a strawberry lemonade pre workout
Yeah. And it's like that come from a a
powdered tub. Yeah.
And you know, everyone takes electrolytes.
It's like, well that that that salt doesn't just magically
appear free freeze dried coffee.Yeah, yeah.
(04:03):
I think it's quite common thoughwith like our clientele, like
high performance. I hear a lot of them saying like
clean eating, yeah, you know, and I think like it is quite
simple to follow clear rule structure.
Yeah, gives the illusion of control.
Yeah, I think there's a, it's almost like, you know, when you
think of like a high achiever, they like to be, you know,
they're they're they're almost like a superior.
Like I'm up. And then it's like clean eating.
(04:25):
It's like, oh, I don't eat that stuff.
Like, yeah, you guys eat that stuff because you're down there.
I'm I'm a high achiever. I eat clean.
Like it gives you this level of like superiority.
Like I have a good diet. I have a clean diet.
I don't eat eat junk food. Pretty.
Much and it's, it's one of thosethings where you know, there is
massive advantages for prioritizing Whole Foods,
(04:49):
unprocessed foods in your diet from a micronutrient standpoint,
from a satiety standpoint, from a simplicity standpoint when it
comes to preparing your meals. But then also there are
downsides to it where if you aren't used to eating like that,
then it's a huge shift and you might get certain cravings for
other other foods which you've deemed as bad.
(05:10):
And so you've kicked them out your diet.
Travelling can be tricky to to find kind of unprocessed foods
like lean proteins and things because any restaurant you know
is using oil or kind of certain flavourings or something which
might increase the calories and be classed as not not clean.
So you know, it, it can be limiting there.
I think from a just a long term sustainability approach with a
(05:36):
diet, I think there's advantagesto including some, you know,
again, like more processed foods.
It can be very hard to get enough calories in with a clean
diet. If you're a endurance athlete or
if you have a very fast metabolism, if you're just
pounding potatoes and rice all day, you can get digestive
(05:58):
issues from a food volume standpoint and that's where more
processed sugar based foods, youknow, more palatable foods can
be beneficial. From a salt standpoint, that's
one that I found is like in a fat loss phase where I lean into
what you would consider very clean foods is I drink a lot of
water, I sweat a lot and then I eat very like low sodium foods
(06:22):
and I find I'm like I'm crampinga lot or I or I feel like
dehydrated even though I'm drinking a lot And I'm like,
that's, that's one thing that I found with it.
I think like the biggest thing is just like real world
practicality, like in like originally, people will think
like I'm, I'm empowered by this,but then there'll always be a
situation come up where that'll be restrictive, just like the
examples you have given. And then that leads to I've
(06:45):
failed. It's like because in their mind,
from people I speak to, they're either eating clean eating or
they're failing. And it's like, it doesn't work
like that. It's a continuum.
It's. Very common for for people that
do clean eating diets to then have a cheat day or a a day
where they eat the junk food andwhatever.
And when you add up all of the junk they eat in that one day,
(07:05):
if they just had a chocolate barevery day, they'd be consuming
less junk food across the week. They're almost like building a
list in their head across the week of like, Oh, here's what
I'm going to eat on my cheat day.
And it's like, you look at that day and you're like, that's
fucking disgusting. Like that's so much, you know,
no one needs a dozen doughnuts, but you've but equally, if you
just had one doughnut a day, that's seven, you know, that's
(07:27):
not a dozen. And, and so little things like
that where it, it's you can convince yourself that you're
eating clean and, and all this stuff, but it's like, but once a
week you're really going ham on,on some stuff which you would
class as not clean. It's one of those things, isn't
it, where like, they'll, they'lltell you all like why they're
eating clean with and then they'll go, oh, yeah.
(07:48):
But on a Saturday when I'm out with my friends in the pub and a
party, it doesn't count then. And you drink out the whole lot
of pizzas, like, oh, it's all right.
Yeah, you. Know, but I think that that's
literally what it does. Like when you think about what
you know, a lot of our work is from a body composition
standpoint, it creates the illusion that what they're doing
is going to get them to the goal.
Because it's like, I guess again, what they do is they'll
(08:08):
look at, say someone who is shredded and they generally do
eat quite clean, but it's they're they're missing the
point is what it is is given thenutrition targets that they've
got, eating those types of foodssupports those numbers most of
the time. So they naturally will lean into
those types of foods, but it's not because they're eating
(08:31):
clean. They're in the shape that they
are. It's the, they're nailing their
nutrition numbers and it's the, those foods that will generally
associate with, with, with thosenumbers.
So what it does, people just go up.
Like how often do you have an onboarding call with a client
and they're like, you know, say they're 40 lbs overweight or
whatever. And it's like things I do eat
clean. And it's what they've done is
(08:52):
again, it's creating this illusion that I'm doing good.
I'm, I'm, I'm eating the foods that I should be eating.
And then it's like, yeah, but itdoesn't hold that much weight.
You basically you're just eatingas you know, you do eat a lot of
natural foods, but it doesn't mean anything.
Well, it doesn't mean much in the setting of body composition
at least. They tie it to like their self
(09:13):
worth right? When really like on onboarding
calls, you can have a conversation, just say well the
outcome you want is almost like driven by habits and intake, no
like a moral choice. Yeah, do you know what I mean?
Yeah, so. It is strange, isn't it?
Like you'll see, you know, say now you see with like females
and two females will go for lunch and one of them wants the
bigger. But then the mate goes, I'll
(09:33):
have a salad. Yeah.
And they're just like you bitch,like you've done.
You're trying to be better than me.
Yeah. Because you've had the salad and
I want the bigger. So then it's like I'll have a
salad as well. Yeah.
Yeah. No, it's like, but there's like,
there's like morality that's tied to the food.
And if you have the clean food, you're suddenly like a good
(09:53):
person. Yeah, you're a good person.
If you eat like a broccoli, you're a bad person, obviously.
So what I do, I'll have a biggerand then I donate to charity
then fine. Yeah, it makes I feel better
than. I eat, eat.
No laughing. Equally there you can have the
say like someone that's overweight that says like, I eat
clean food and maybe they do, they literally eat organic,
grass fed, gluten free, like whatever.
(10:14):
But they're still 40 lbs overweight.
And they have a friend that eats, you know, pop Tarts, kids
cereal, McDonald's, and they're in shape and they go, oh, you
know, they're, they're just lucky they've got a good
metabolism, but it's understanding the fundamentals
of, well, they're probably stilleating low calorie.
Like, yeah, they do eat pop Tarts, but they they take a bite
of 1 and then it's left by the side and they take three days to
(10:34):
eat it. And versus you're eating rib
eyes every night and even thoughit's grass fed, you're eating 80
grams of fat, you know, in in one meal.
Yeah. And.
Just in 80 grams of oil. Yeah, and this is where people
can fall it it, it's like when you talk about finances and you
say, you know, just focus on spending a bit less and saving a
bit more. It will work.
(10:55):
If you've done nothing, if you've gone from eating, you
know, just with like 0 limitations with your diet to
now you've, you're eating more fruits, you're eating more
vegetables, you're eating lean proteins, you're trying to eat
as unprocessed as possible. You're very likely going to lose
weight and put yourself in a calorie deficit because those
(11:15):
foods are higher in volume. You're going to feel stuffed.
You're not going to eat as much.You're eating enough protein,
you're getting your fiber M thatwill work to a point.
And then you're stuck with this situation of like, well, I need
to eat even cleaner. And then maybe you take out salt
or, you know, you, you double down on the organic and you go
gluten free and you're like, it's still not working.
(11:35):
And it's like cleaner. And it's like, well, at what
point do you get to the point it's like, you can't go any
cleaner. You're just eating too much.
And, and that's where you don't have to go through that extreme.
And you can still include those other foods and say, yeah, you
can eat them in moderation. And we'd, but we have to
understand what's driving the weight loss or fat loss in the
1st place, which is the, the calories.
(11:57):
And so once we can say, like I really like Alan Aragon's
approach at the 8020 rule, like,you know, you, you should
prioritize unprocessed foods, Whole Foods, single ingredient
foods, whatever you want to callthem for like, you know, 70 to
80% of your diet. The other 20%, So you're talking
maybe 400 calories a day, 500 calories a day.
What you want like you know, if if you've already hit your
(12:18):
protein needs for the day, you've got your fiber intake,
you've had your fruits, you've had your vegetables.
If you want to have a slice of pizza with your salad, how about
it like that's going to keep cravings lower.
It allows you to eat the foods that you enjoy.
If if you don't particularly enjoy the kind of Whole Foods
and things it, it will keep youradherence higher long term.
So much more than trying to omitpizza.
(12:41):
You know how many bodybuilders you know they gained 30 lbs
after the show because they haven't had a cheat day, a cheat
meal. They don't incorporate those
foods into their plan. Like I understand at the end of
a prep, you know, you're pretty much limited anyway.
But they almost go so extreme with their food limitations that
the moment they get a taste of chocolate or pizza or
(13:04):
cheesecake, the floodgates open.And even if if their coach said
every day, I want you to have 200 calories of cheesecake, like
that's your favorite food, I want you to have it every day
after the show. They don't want cheesecake.
So I've had it every day. Like I've had Oreos every day,
like I don't need them now. And it's so I think it really is
important to try and incorporatethose foods within reason to
(13:27):
your plan. And again, like we spoke about
women, they have a lower calorierequirement.
Generally they're going to be able to incorporate less stuff
or in smaller portions. And yeah, it's not fair, but
that's just the way it goes. One of the things I like to do
when someone says like they eat clean and stuff and I like
you'll often see they're not getting the outcome that they
want. Like they're 40 lbs overweight
or whatever. And you can just simply say
(13:48):
like, well, how is your clean eating diet working for you?
Because you're 40 lbs overweight.
And you'll often see that when they're in their environment at
home, yes, they can eat those foods that they like to eat.
But then they'll travel, they'llgo to a social event, and this
is where their rules and structure doesn't apply.
And they'll go off plan. They'll feel like they're
failing. It's like, right, well, this is
clearly not working for you. You're not getting the outcome
(14:09):
that you want, however clean thefoods are.
So are you open to trying something else?
Yeah. And that's how you start
introducing like other foods andstuff then.
I think one of the most like, I don't want to say controversial,
but like debated things is the majority of research.
If someone's overweight and theyhave high risk factors of
coronary heart disease, high blood pressure, you know, all
all of these like what's the other one?
(14:31):
What's the other really common one?
Diabetes, The just losing the body fat, regardless of how you
do it improves all of those markers.
And I think this is where peopleget their pants in a bunch where
they'll say, you know, you, you should, if you lose weight
eating nothing but sugar, for example, like you're going to
become diabetic. And, and again, all of the
(14:53):
research shows that's not the case.
Like if you lose the body fat and get your body fat into a
healthy range, what is deemed, you know, by BMI or whatever it
is, all of your health markers improve, whether that's you do
fasting, whether that's you do keto, whether that's you do high
carb, low fat, a body wound diet, a protein only diet, a
vegan diet. Like if you drop the excess body
(15:15):
fat, health markers improve, then you'll get to a point in
diminishing returns where maybe your diet starts hurting you,
You might be deficient in certain micronutrients, your
energy levels tank because you're on a keto diet, all of
these things. And that's where you can start
to kind of fine tune things. But it's almost like a, like a
peak in a through where there's this point of like maximum
return. But I, I think this is where
(15:37):
again, people will say when theywere like, I, I'm you, you
recommend maybe a convenient food because they're travelling
like, hey, like pick up some deli ham or something like super
easy protein, don't have to prepit.
And they go, no, it's got nitrates in.
I'm not, I'm not going to have that.
And I'm like, you're fucking £250.
Like the, the ham ain't hurting you.
And it's like, you know, no, I only eat the organic chicken
(16:00):
breasts. It's like you don't because you
wouldn't be 250 lbs otherwise, but.
What happens when it's cheat day?
Oh, well, I'm going to hammer doughnuts.
Yeah. Yeah.
Suddenly the the ham was not a good idea on Tuesday, but the
doughnuts are now a phenomenal idea.
Or it's like, or like booze. People go out and they're like,
they're blasting lagers or wine and it's like, but you're
worried what the plastics in your in your ham.
(16:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't worry about it.
It's diverting your attention. It is not the face.
Like, yeah. And it's, you know, if you want
to be aware of those things, then it's like, it's fine.
But it's like, move the big rocks first.
If you, you know, if your body fat is looking really good, your
energy levels are good, you're looking for the edge.
And then you can say, you know, I think I'm going to like sub my
daily meat out for some organic chicken breast.
(16:43):
I'm like, Hey, like, great idea.You know, you've earned the
right to kind of be concerned with those things if that's
something that you want to go down.
Like personally, I'm not bothered by it.
And maybe I'd, maybe I'd die younger because of it.
And but I I would rather enjoy my life with ham, you know, than
than eat nothing but organic meat And, and that kind of.
I can tell you something, the hospitals ain't flooded because
of nitrates. I.
(17:04):
Can tell you, yeah. You're right or like you know
your fruit that's not organic and it's like no one, no one's
getting admitted because they ate non organic apples.
I saw a thing that I can't remember the exact figures off
the top of my head, but it was basically like if you look at
someone who eats a highly processed diet, there were a 3%
(17:26):
greater risk of death from all 'cause mortality.
Whereas if you see someone who meets the recommended aerobic
guidelines, they have a like 30%reduction in all 'cause
mortality. So it's that you see people like
worrying about like, and that's someone who eats like a highly
ultra processed diet. So like, and then you've got
(17:48):
someone worrying about like a bit of processed ham, but even
if you like like sugary sodas and all this other stuff, only a
3% increased risk, which is, youknow, it's not great, but it's
not. But then you ask them to do what
about going for a walk suddenly?But you got.
A 30% return on investment there, you got a 3% return on
(18:09):
investment there. You're not even doing it
properly. So it's like, you know, it's
these things when you actually look at it like that, that's 10X
more important than that, but you're not even willing to look
at that yet. You're making this sound like a
real high up on the priority. And it's like just because, but
again, it's that clean eating it.
(18:30):
I don't know why, but it gives you that level of, of even like
as a fitness coach, like I've been out with people for food
and like, you'll order the pizzaand they're like, hold on a
second. Yeah, yeah.
Like, you know, they're almost like, oh, like you're, you're a
fraud. Yeah, yeah.
Take your eyeballs off me. Yeah.
In. The last eight weeks, the
(18:51):
majority of your diet has been chicken and berries.
And it's like if I have pizza, then I'll.
Have pizza. It's like I'm like sitting here,
relatively lean, very active, decent shape, and like you'll
sat there like 30 lbs overweightand sedentary and loves booze,
yet you're turning your nose up at me.
It's always, it's always someonethat's in worse shape.
It's like if, if I had to generalize, like the type of
(19:13):
clients that focus on the the minutiae that doesn't really
matter. It's all of the clients that
have that are not getting any progress and they're not hitting
their calories, they're not getting their steps and they're
not getting their workouts in. And they use this, these things
is like procrastination, like, oh, what do you think about
saunas? And it's like, what do you think
about walking? Like, like, oh, what do you,
(19:35):
what do you think about like removing gluten from my diet?
I was like, what do you think about like portioning anything?
And it's, it's like you're, you're asking me what I think
about all of these things. And it's like we're we're
avoiding the deeper kind of problem, which is like, I'm
like, what do you think about doing anything to change?
And they're like, no, I'm not going to do that, but I'm going
(19:56):
to pick your brain on what do you think about TRT?
Yeah. And it's like, hey, like your
test levels will double when youlose 50 lbs.
Like it's just. Total avoidance of the real
work. Yeah, it is.
Think going from like a businessstandpoint, saying how you're
selling a product and the reviews on the product are
coming back and they're trash. You're giving refunds
everywhere. Everyone's hating the product.
(20:18):
It's not. It's not doing what it's
supposed to do. And you all sit down for a
business meeting and someone goes, right, guys in the office
and we go in red pens or black pens.
And you're like. Yeah.
Me. What's going on here?
Let's start stuff the pens. I think we should get some
comfier chairs in here. And it's like what?
Are you like what? Like what?
What are we doing? You're there in like 2 mil debt.
(20:39):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it, it's, it's that.
And I because again, it's, it's much easier because, you know,
even if people are reading things online about supplements
or diets and things, they convince themselves that they're
doing work on themselves becausethey're thinking about their
diet, but they're not actually doing anything to to help them
it. Makes them it makes them feel
(21:00):
better in the moment, and then as soon as that goes, they'll
look for something else that doesn't require any.
If I if I look. At better Again.
If I look at my guys that have got in the best shape and
maintained it, all of them are probably around like a 7030
split of they eat chicken, vegetables, fruits, eggs.
They also use protein shakes, protein bars, beef jerky.
(21:22):
They have some cheesecake now and again.
They go to Wendy's. They have a milkshake.
Like they, they do all of this stuff as well, but it's, it's
all in moderation. And it, it's like, I don't, I
don't have a single guy that's all, all girls that's shredded
and in shape that eats like, Nope, I do organic, gluten free,
none of this stuff. And they, they all enjoy those
things because they understand for me to maintain this, I gotta
(21:44):
keep some sanity and and keep these these foods in in
rotation. Yeah.
What I often find is, well, those same people that talk
about like clean eating, becauseobviously what we refer to is
like more of a flexible approach.
But if you speak about a flexible approach, then they
just think like in your example,when you order the pizza, that's
all you eat every day. Yeah.
And then clean eating is like chicken and.
Breast all or nothing. Yeah, it's all or nothing
thinking and that's where. You're either trying to fit pop
(22:05):
tarts and and protein powder in your macros or you're doing a
bro diet. It's a well, there is, there is
this massive scale or like continuum in between these two
things. But again, people tend to just
view everything in life as blackor white.
Like you're either you're eitherleft or you're right.
You're either, you know, bro, food or not, you're either
carnival or you're vegan. And if someone's like, I'm an
(22:27):
omnivore, it's like, oh, you're a fucking loser.
It's like pick a side bro. You're also, yeah.
Yeah, but it's the moderation isn't sexy and it doesn't sell,
but it wins every time. And I'd rather be a winner.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's it's, you know, the the
philosophies that we try to educate and preach to our
(22:49):
clients is moderation with thesefoods and, and just education on
the sense of here are the benefits to these foods.
Here's when they can be useful. Here's where they might not be
useful. Here's the downside of these
foods. Here's the upside of these
foods. Now you can make an educated
decision. We can collect feedback, we can
(23:10):
have a conversation about it andthen we can adjust.
Like that's, that's all what it comes down to it.
And I think people really, they really overcomplicate the whole
thing. And because again, it, it's
maybe it's boredom, maybe it's like that, that elitism or kind
of wanting to be advanced. And it's like, no, I need, I
need this for my body type and, and these kind of things.
(23:33):
And you know, like, look at, look at you, right?
Like it's like you've been in shape now for the last 15 years
and you know, and how do you now34?
Same age as you? Yeah, I think.
Yeah, I always forget. 33 I don't you don't we you you, you
relevant for this 34. 34 I thought it was 3334 now Jesus.
But like, you know, since, sinceI've known you, you know, which
(23:55):
was like when we were what, 1920You've been in shape and I've, I
don't think I've ever seen you kind of be like, no, I like, I
don't eat those foods that bad for me and stuff.
It's you've always incorporated those again, quote UN quote,
unhealthy foods in your diet, but you're meticulous with your
calorie tracking and you're always, you know, not hitting it
(24:18):
to the exact calorie, but in thein the range and you're just
dead consistent. And that's like, people would
kill to have that shape year round.
But instead they'll even if you said to them, yeah, I eat ice
cream a couple times a week. You know, I I had pizza the
other night and I do this. They'll go, huh, They still
won't do it. And they're like, Nope, I need
(24:38):
this. Well, I've seen Sean Baker talk
about carnivores, so I need to do that.
And it's like he looks better than Sean if you're basing it
off physiques. Like you should.
Probably use this approach well think like.
If I had to list Ryan's favorite.
Foods, Ham, Apple. And grapes.
He liked ham Apple, but he I know he loves the Ben and
Jerry's Anna Haagen Daz. I know he loves.
I know he loves lager. IPA.
(24:59):
And he loves the Oreos as well. So like, so he loves ham, he
loves apples, he likes lager, helikes Oreos, he likes Ben and
Jerry's. That's not that's not bad
balance. If anything you've got more junk
than good. But then if you look at the
actual quantity, 90% of your diet comes great.
I'll balance. It out with the grains as.
Well, it's, it's, it's fruit andlean protein and then kind of
(25:23):
fill in the gaps with, you know,whatever you want.
Yeah. And that's it, isn't it?
Because like, basically we're looking for consistency over
time, something that's sustainable.
So someone who's like clean eating, they're only going to be
able to do that. They won't even last the week.
It's like, but it's also, it's consistency with what matters
because you can be a consistent clean eater.
Some people will eat clean for 10 years, but again, they're
(25:44):
still not in shape because they're clean eating too much
peanut butter, they're clean eating too much avocados, too
many rib eyes, too many potatoes.
Therefore they're out of shape. So it's like you're you can,
even if you did find a way to beconsistent with the clean
eating, you're still being consistent with something that
isn't the thing that's moving the needle.
(26:05):
Yeah, it's something that's taking your distraction, you
know, you. Have to understand the
underlying principles like intake I.
Mean yeah and it's you know you see it the same thing with
training where it's like, hey, what do you think about the
strength curve on this versus this?
And it's like, have you tried training hard?
Like first it's like you're worrying about the minutiae
where and you're jumping around on different training programs,
but you haven't even understood basic technique and proper
(26:27):
training intensity. And it's the same thing with
food. It's like you're you're worrying
about the the technique and the sets and the reps, but you
haven't understood that the driving thing is training hard.
Yeah. And it's, it's like you haven't
understood the premise of, of nutrition is, is calorie intake
and eating enough protein? Such a good example like those
two because training hard is really difficult.
(26:47):
Yeah. And when you're like in a depth
it being hungry is uncomfortable.
So you will do anything to avoidthose things.
It's like, oh what do you think about the strength curve on this
lap pole down? It's like just put 4 plates on
it and RIP it for twins. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's and it's the same when
you start dieting, you're like, I'm a bit hungry and you're
like, I need to shuffle my macros around like I need to.
Maybe I need to do a low carb approach because I'm feeling
hungry and it's like. Or you just suck it up.
(27:10):
Yeah, I need to refeed, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you'll you'll
convince. Yourself.
This is where social media comesin though, and it's like the
reels with with training like This is why you haven't got a
big chest. And it's like, because what you
got to do, you got to make sure that you're driving your elbow
across this way. And it's like, no, you got you
because you haven't trained hardall very long.
Here's why you. Haven't got a big chest because
(27:30):
you're six months into your training career and you haven't
got any muscle. Yet and you train like a pussy
yeah that'd be the one good thatone but the same from a diet
standpoint it's like this food is killing you and then it'll go
into some like you know the the chemicals within this food
Whereas if they went if you wantto get in shape you you're going
to track your nutrition quite meticulously for the next two
(27:51):
years and you're going to reallystart to learn about what what
what balance looks like for you as an individual and then you're
going to try these different foods and and you're going to go
through Oh no, I don't want. To watch that this is too much
the the thing I shared with you of Alex Fiado and he's like, oh
and he's shredded year round andhe's like, yeah, I just figured
(28:11):
I put together my top five listsof like foods to avoid for 2026.
If you want to be shredded. And it's like 1 car battery and
then it's like just these like random objects like don't eat
these things but it's but it's like it's obviously in in jest,
but it it's got that underlying kind of meaning of like just
don't overthink it like I think you know if if there was a
(28:33):
people are still chasing the hack of well, if I avoid gluten,
I'm suddenly going to drop 20 lbs of body fat.
If I, you know eat X food, then this is going to have this
effect. If I avoid yellow 20 and and red
46, like I'm never going to get sick again.
And it's like, no, you probably will.
But if you keep your calories incheck consistently, you get your
(28:57):
body fat to a decent level. Then if you want to play around
with food choices to and you know, and again, track data of
how do you feel? How are your energy levels?
How's your digestion? How's your sleep like the food,
the types of foods you eat will impact all of those things.
And again, people will look at this and saying that we're we're
shitting on clean food. And by no means we're we're not
doing that one bit where it's you need to take a look at,
(29:20):
well, how do you feel with the foods that you're eating?
And if you're like, yeah, I feelreally good, but all day I'm
just struggling and I'm crave these things.
Then there's the conversation of, well, how long do you think
you can sustain this then? And what's going to happen when
you break? And so it's, it's, there's a,
it's so individual. Well, you know, I, I've got,
(29:40):
I've got one client where I'd say 80% of his food is, is
protein shakes, protein powders,things like that.
Looks phenomenal. Blood work, outstanding energy
levels through the roof, digestion on point, sleep
perfect. Cool.
If I ate that diet, I would probably take 19 shits a day.
Like, but that's like, but at nopoint am I going to go to him
(30:02):
like that's a terrible diet. Because if I did it, I would, I
would suck. It's like amazed, like you found
the thing that's worked for you and that's through two years of
collecting data and you giving feedback and making the
adjustments and me having a little bit of input.
And now we found this sweet spotfor someone else.
It might be like, yeah, we probably need to eat like a
(30:23):
pretty low fat diet and mainly unprocessed foods because
whenever you eat junk, you know,digestion goes off, You sleep
like share we get massive water retention.
Sorry, bro, like we're probably going to have to keep diet a bit
cleaner, but it's to to say there's one-size-fits-all and
everyone should be in a certain way.
I just think is so false becauseno, no one like yes, we all kind
(30:44):
of, you know, it's calories and calories out.
There's there's some underlying principles for everyone, but
everyone's different in the samebreath.
That's it like moderation. And that's where like some
people say, you've just got to eat in moderation.
Moderation looks a little bit different to most people as
well. And it's like like what?
What moderates Ryan well might not moderate me.
(31:06):
Well, like your guy has almost found what moderation looks like
for him. He's found a way that he can eat
that allows him to reach his goals.
He looks good, feels good, sleeps well, functions well and
blood work's good. Like he's getting all the things
he wants from his diet and that happens to be pretty processed
to a degree. Whereas like again, that's not
(31:29):
what moderation would look like for say me.
I know for me to walk around a little bit leaner, I've got to
eat a lot more fruits and vegetables to keep myself full
because if I eat too many highlyprocessed foods, I generally get
pretty hungry. But it's like, but that's,
that's just what moderation might look like for me.
So it's important as well when people say you've just got to
eat in moderation, you don't know what moderation is.
(31:52):
You just, you know, roughly. And because again, there's only
so many ways a diet can vary, like you think, oh, moderation,
like you should have a bit of this.
You shouldn't restrict from this.
You should have you track the information for two to three
years. You learn, you get feedback.
By the end of the three years, you will know what your
moderation looks like. Yeah, and now you've won the
game. And now you can carry on for the
(32:13):
rest of your life. It's like, you ask, you know,
someone could say, oh, you know,I take out in moderation and
then they go, I eat it four times a week and you're like
fucking moderation. Like that's, that's way too.
Much your perception of moderation is different.
Exactly. You're comparing it to something
because maybe they used to eat it twice a day.
Yeah. And say, well, that is pretty
moderate compared to what you were doing.
Yeah. And same thing with training
volume. But yeah, moderate volume, like
(32:34):
50 sets A muscle group. You're like what?
It's like, no, but I've come from a, you know, a elite
athlete background where we weredoing 3A days.
Oh, that's pretty moderate. And so it's like, it's very,
very contextual. But this, this is what we, you
know, the, the thing that I wantto kind of drive home is, is
context is everything. Like when you understand the
(32:54):
context, then you can make an informed decision.
But to say blanket statements with 0 context is it's just
flawed because there's there's you can get two situations where
the recommendations for each of the polar opposite and the
outcome might be the same. Like health markers improve body
fat drops down one's on a keto diet, one's on a on a a no fat
(33:17):
diet. Outcomes are the same.
Both super happy, got everythingthey want.
Like the only thing we're biasedtowards is results.
Like I have no affinity to a a type of diet.
We can look at the evidence fromyears of working with people
saying this. This way tends to work and be
very effective for most people based on environment, behaviors,
(33:40):
habits, practicality. Well, that doesn't mean that
this is going to work for you. Like in it's like when we get to
know each other and we look at your day-to-day and your
feedback and stuff, then we tailor it to you.
That's what it comes down to. Well, this is what we say, don't
we? We start with a plan and we
adjust it based on the feedback we get.
We'll tailor it as we go. When you say about not being
married to a certain diet, it's like I got one of my one of my
(34:00):
guys has been diagnosed with heart, heart disease.
And he was like, Oh, I'm I want to go plant based because I've
read that plant based will help with his with his diet.
And I was like, I just explainedto Miles that you don't need to
go plant based to help with yourheart disease.
Like there's you can still eat some animal products and things
and still move in the right direction.
(34:23):
But also I was like, but if but he was like, I I could tell he
really wanted to go plant based.He's obviously read something
and he had something that reallyis motivating him to go plant
based. So I was like, sound.
Yeah, let's go. I was like it.
It's it doesn't. I don't mind if you want to go
plant based or not. I'm just saying you don't need
to like based on the informationthat I know of, you don't need
to go plant based to solve to well, at least help this
problem. But I was like, but if you're
(34:44):
motivated to go plant based, we can also try and solve the
problem by going plant based as well.
So we see where you want to go. But it's like the things like
reducing your body weight and doing more aerobic activity,
they're still going to be there whether you go plant based or
not. The plant based for me, I'm just
looking at that like a personal preference, like sound.
And also if you went against him, you probably would have
(35:05):
butt heads and he was probably going to do.
It anyway, so if I tell him he'snot going plant based, he'd
probably leave the program. Yeah.
So I'm like, work with him, collect data, it might work and
he might be happy. Yeah, if he, if he can reverse
the problem and go plant based, fine.
If if he decides plant based is not for him and we can still
solve the problem, fine. Again, like my main thing is
trying to make sure that he lives longer.
There's the plan, there's. There's just too many variables
(35:28):
to factor in. Like even if you look, if you
look at most of the research from a longevity standpoint, it
seems to be the Mediterranean style diet reign supreme.
But you can also look at it and say, well, what else do those
people do in their day? What's their stress levels like?
What's there? How many hours a week do they
work? Like are the majority of them
married with kids? Like where do they live?
(35:49):
What's the weather like? And like all of these variables
also impact your health. And so it's like olives and
olive oil, baby. But it's like, well, they live
like, you know, there's nice scenery.
You know they take siestas. Ocean sizes small, yeah, but you
have 4 olives and a drizzle of olive oil.
Not like. Oh, there we go then.
Yeah. So there's like there's so many
variables to it. So like there really is not a
(36:12):
one-size-fits-all approach. There's there's principles and
and certain philosophies that would like we can use as a
starting template, but it it does just come down to the
individual needs of the client. And so like if I, you know,
summing this one up in terms of the cleaning, if you feel like
you've been stuck in that and you've tried to keep your foods
too, quote UN quote healthy and you the craves and things are
(36:35):
starting to settle in, don't be afraid to incorporate some of
those other foods. Just, you know, if you're
working with a coach, talk to them about it and just try it.
Like just collect feedback from yourself.
Look at energy levels, digestion, sleep, performance,
and if you feel good and it lowers the cravings, great.
But I, I think, I think overall people need to stop obsessing so
(36:59):
much about the, the, these kind of little things before the big
rocks have been moved. So that's not for me to say.
Don't worry about chemicals in your food.
Don't worry about this. Like, no, no, no.
There is a time and a place for that.
But if you're 50 lbs overweight and you haven't yet done
anything and you're worrying about the gluten or dairy or
(37:21):
something in your diet, focus onthe big rocks 1st and then that
stuff will come afterwards. Mic drop.
Love that. Boom.
I would drop. I would drop it.
Yeah, mic drop. But also, guys, thank you as
always for tuning in. Be sure to like and subscribe on
iTunes, Spotify and YouTube. We'll see you next time.
If you love this show, please like, share and leave us a five
(37:42):
star review so that we can help more people.
I'm John Matson, reminding you to always go get what's yours.
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