March 4, 2025 • 28 mins
Episode 201 of The Unique CPA kicks off a block of episodes focused on building community in the accounting profession, and to start, Randy talks with Ashley Carroll, founder of Operations House, about addressing burnout while driving firm profitability. Ashley details her mission to help accounting firms rethink their business structures and cultures and think of their employees more as human beings. Ashley recently introduced a “professional pep talk” initiative that provides support and encouragement to accounting professionals, and she discusses her own journey from accounting to operations, her mental health struggles, and her passion for fostering psychologically safe and profitable work environments.
Get the full show notes and more resources at TheUniqueCPA.com
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to the UniqueCPA with your host, Randy Crabtree.
Today, we bring you the first in aseries of episodes on the power of
community in the accountingprofession. We'll explore how strong
connections lead to healthier,more fulfilled professionals, and
together, create a supportivenetwork that enriches everyone.
The Unique CPA is broughtto you by Tri-Merit, the specialty tax professionals.
(00:24):
Today on the Unique CPA, we'rediving into one of the biggest challenges facing accounting firm
owners, and you may have heard mesay this before, but it's burnout.
And our guest, Ashley Carroll,isn't just talking about it.
She's fixing it.
She's a former accountant turned COO.
Ashley founded Operations House to help.
Firm owners break free fromthe burnout cycle by rethinking their business structures.
(00:48):
She's proven that profitabilityand psychological safety can go hand in hand, and that a firm can
be both scalable and sustainablewithout sacrificing well being.
There's another reason we're talking too,which I'm probably going to get into this first, but I Actually met Ashley, I think
six days ago now, so we're going fromnot knowing each other six days ago to recording and one it's because of this
(01:13):
passion I see she has for burnout in theprofession, but really we met because of this really cool thing she's doing right
now, or her firm is, it's the professionalpep talk and we'll get deeper into that.
So enough of me talking, Ashley,welcome to the Unique CPA.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah.
And so before we even talk about theburnout, which is a huge passionate topic
(01:34):
of mine, and this probably relates, let'stalk about that professional pep talk.
Because when I saw this on social media,what you were doing, I was just intrigued.
I was just like, this is amazing.
Why didn't I think of this,all this kind of stuff.
So why don't you give us alittle background on what this is that you're doing right now?
(01:55):
Sure.
Thank you.
Well, that is mostly the feedback thatwe've gotten, and we're so thrilled.
This came about because I havehonestly been having a hard time.
I'm in second year ofgrowing Operations House and.
What we do is very unique.
We have very unique approach tohelping accounting firms grow and we
(02:17):
are planting our message deeply andthat takes time and we know that.
And so my parents, uh, very lovinglyhave been sending me text messages once a morning, just little things.
I think they go on Google and grab them.
And you know, it's just, you'vegot this, you know, toughness is.
(02:37):
greatness.
And it just, as much as Icouldn't believe it, those little messages after a few weeks.
We're really meaning a lot to methat if my dad didn't send one, I was like, I don't feel right.
I don't feel jazzed up.
And I was sitting with my teamon Thursday, the day before we
met and I said, guys, you know,this thing has been happening.
(03:01):
My dad's been doing this for me.
We have something called TeaTime Thursdays, where we just get
together at the end of a Thursday,and we spill the tea on the week.
We just say everythingthat we're thinking.
It starts with a feelingswheel, and we just pick our emotions, and we go from there.
And I was telling my team about this, andI said, you know, wouldn't it be so cool
if we could just send, like, these peptalks to people just when they need them?
(03:23):
And my chief of staff, Fanni, who isjust When I've got an idea and it's meant to go, she's not going to let it go.
She said post it tonight.
Oh, wow.
I said, okay, let me,let me think about it.
Let me, um, I got it all togetherthat night, post it Friday morning, and we're about 25 pep talks in now.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
And I requested one of them fora group of, I think, six people.
(03:45):
So I thank you for doing that.
And the response was immediate.
As soon as you sent that out, I got,this is a group of seven of us that are in a text chat, all accountants, and
they immediately responded with a thankyou, and where'd you get this, this idea is amazing, that kind of information.
(04:05):
So, yes, it's making a difference and Iappreciate the fact that you did that.
Absolutely.
I think one of the things that isleading into burnout and for me as an accountant, it's quite a thankless job.
We can be seen as end of the totempole, the red headed department, you know, we're not as cool as marketing.
(04:25):
We're the necessary evil of a startupculture and expenses and providers.
And sometimes I just really wanted someoneto be like, you're making a difference.
You're doing a good job.
Like you're making an impact.
And I think on the form, we just havelike five different options about, you know, like keep going or you're
(04:45):
making a difference is somethingis going to change, but mostly people want it to just hear that.
It was going to be okay.
Like the most chosen option was that tokeep going the one step at a time option.
And I think that is just so importantto acknowledge that people are missing
that kind of positive feedback andpositive affirmation in this industry.
(05:10):
Yeah.
No.
Well, that's great.
Well, that, that kind of seguesinto, uh, operations House.
But before we get there, let's talkabout your journey, you know, from accountant to COO to Operations House.
And then, you know, that that journeyreally led you in the long run of focusing
on burnout and fixing the problem withinaccounting firms and other places.
So why don't you give us that background?
(05:30):
Sure.
So I never wanted to bean accountant per se.
I was guided into becoming an accountant.
By someone who said, get adegree in something you don't
want to have to pay someone foronce you run your own business.
And, you know, I thought, okay,let me try out accounting.
And it was just very black and white.
It clicked, you know, I'd been good atmath, kind of similar to your experience
(05:54):
where you just found it and switchedto it and you went from there, it fit.
And it was a good fit.
But when I was about to graduate, Ikind of had like a crisis and went to my
marketing professor actually and said, Idon't think I want to be an accountant.
Like, I don't see howgoing to the big four.
Like, I don't think I'm goingto survive, like, and He said, well, what do you want to do?
(06:19):
And I said, I want to help people.
Like my whole dream wasto start a nonprofit.
He said, helping people and being anaccountant is not mutually exclusive.
And that sentence hasbeen ingrained in my mind.
Thank you, Professor.
Because.
Yeah, I, that opened up a world forme and he told me to go get a job as a staff accountant at a nonprofit.
(06:41):
Really?
Alright, nice.
So I started my journey there as astaff accountant and I was reporting
to the board and one day the boardasked me, What is this line item?
And when I unpacked it all, the lineitem was 86% Late fees on our loans that we are giving out to constituents.
(07:01):
So we were a CDFI giving out loansto low income constituents for payday loans, um, getting them out of predatory
loans, daycare, some things that youcouldn't get through traditional lending.
And 86 percent of the lendingmoney that we had out was late.
And that was going ontheir credit reports.
(07:25):
This was like a bigger impact at thisone question in the general ledger.
Was actually uncovering and tellingthe story of, and so that was not going to settle right with me.
I knew I was just a staff accountant,but I did not care about grant money without a lot of encouragement.
I said, we got to figureout what the problem is.
(07:46):
And after talking with the bank tellersat the CDFI, it was just that we didn't have an online payment processor.
Which was crazy to me that it was 2017 andwe didn't have a payment processor Yeah, I have plenty of ways to make my bills pay
online, you know So I spent a year workingwith the federal reserve bank and the cdfi to build a ach payment processing system
(08:10):
Wow,
and that was my introduction segue intooperations And as soon as that went live, we turned it onto the website.
A month later we were down to 9% late.
Like amazing.
79% of people justwanted to pay their bill.
Right.
And we were living in rural SouthCarolina with no bus system.
(08:30):
Mm-hmm
. You know.
Mm-hmm
. And people just had no way of getting there.
And so that really showed methat the technology for good, that's possible we can do this.
Mm-hmm . And so I. Pivoted.
I tapped, you know, my potentialthere of making change and I decided, you know, okay, I'm going to take
this accounting skillset to a remotefirm who really enjoys technology and, and try to play my hand there.
(08:56):
So I went to work with BrandonHall for a while, fantastic leader.
And he gave me the opportunity tohelp grow his accounting service line.
In the early stages.
And from there I went to work forNicole McKenzie at momentum accounting.
She was looking for a staffaccountant and I replied to the job
description and said, I would loveto do anything, but accounting work.
(09:21):
And I think that got her attention enoughto be like, okay, what do you want to do?
And I said, I want to take careof your team and your clients.
And I want to show you that itwill make you a ton of money because I had been sitting there.
In that role, and we had a salespersonwho wasn't really an accountant who
(09:41):
was giving me my work and had my role,but I didn't have all the authority.
You know, I was still, youknow, lower in the ranks.
This was just my second job.
So I was really shooting my shot here.
She allowed me in.
And from there I grew to C. O. O. 40percent profit margins at the end of four years, 0 percent turnover with the team.
(10:02):
9. 7 NPS score.
I mean, just a happyteam, successful business.
And I thought.
Okay, you know, like, I've done this,Nicole explained to me that she had everything that she dreamed of, that
satisfied me, and I was like, I'm going togo get everything I'm dreaming about too.
And that's where Operation House came in?
(10:23):
And that's whereOperations House comes in.
All
right.
And then, before I ask the next question.
Man, I'm surprised wedidn't cross paths yet.
Cause Brandon Hall's a friend of mine.
Nicole McKenzie's a friend of mine.
In fact, Nicole and I werein a rap video together.
So,
Oh,
that was you?
(10:43):
That's so funny!
Yeah, her and Scott?
I'm always in the shadows,just in the background.
That's the best part aboutbeing the CEO overall.
That kind of really fits me, but yeah.
Being out front now, it's reallyfun to be able for everyone to kind of put a face to a lot of
the things that
they've known about.
And
that video was actually, that songwas called CPA Now, which was the
unique CPA theme for our conferencethe first year, a couple of years ago.
(11:06):
So
that was
fun.
All right.
So now obviously you helped Nicole,you helped Brandon, you got them to their firms, to places that obviously
Nicole, very happy, has everythingthat she ever dreamed of having.
But then you went on toOperations House and really.
I think a major focus, I mean, youcan, I don't want to put words in
your mouth, is, you know, fixing theburnout problem in accounting firms.
(11:28):
And so how did that become an emphasisof what you wanted to do with your consulting work or with firms?
Yeah, I recognize how lucky I wasto be in the position that I was in.
A lot of why I wanted to go into nonprofit work was originally to give.
(11:48):
Women who did not have maybe a traditionalpath, like my own mom, who was a single mom who did not have a college
education, she worked her way up froman admin assistant at a procurement agency up to a doctor of procurement now.
And I still believe that path ispossible with the right encouragement, connections, training, teaching.
(12:09):
And I wanted to build anonprofit that basically gave.
trained women on those entry level skills.
So that had always kind ofbeen in the back of my mind.
How do I start to share my journey andthe way that I grew through the levels of accounting from staff accountant to
(12:30):
senior associate to manager to operations,you know, if that's somewhere you want
to go, onboarding specialist, some ofthese other roles that accountants.
Would like to be in that are notnecessarily a direct path that they're given at the Big Four, and just start
to educate people out there about whatthe different options are So it came
(12:51):
from wanting to share with people thatthere were better options out there.
I have my own journey with mental healththat i'm pretty public about and to see Other people in the accounting industry,
especially in the big four and whatthey're struggling and dealing with.
(13:11):
And having had a taste of that in my ownway, just, you know, I think there's a lot of the same, it's a. Industry problem.
I would say burnout isnot a personal problem.
This is a industry problem.
And so I saw that and I knew that if Ican make a difference at this one firm, I can make a difference at all the firms.
(13:35):
I truly believe that.
And so my mission is to create achange in the accounting world.
Not just to stop at one firm orone firm that I'm working at.
That's not my mission that I've proven it.
And we're going to go out thereand pressure kindly, lovingly the other firms into treating their
(13:57):
teams better by building firms thatalready do it and taking their talent.
Nice.
So that's why you and I connectedso quickly is because we have same passions and ideals.
You just said that your mission, Iactually have, I just had to look it up here because I'm still messing it up when
I say it, but my personal mission is tohave a positive impact on people in the accounting profession by inspiring change.
(14:22):
And I think we align in that, evenif we say it a little bit different.
But anytime I talk to anybody that hasthat mindset, it's just, I'm so impressed.
So let's talk about thata little bit further then.
So obviously you showed that youdidn't have to deal with burnout and you help people avoid that.
Why do you think for amoment struggle with burnout?
(14:43):
Before I even ask that, cause youhave a term or you have something
you say out there that you talk aboutburnout as a business model flaw.
What do you mean by that?
This is a structural organizational flaw.
We don't have to have processesin place, hours in place that lead to burnout within our team.
(15:05):
It is possible to provide great accountingservices, whether it be tax or advisory.
Without burning out our team.
So just because things have been donein the way that they have been where it's required 80 hour work weeks
during tax season, and that's justbusy season and just push through it.
No one else should have to pay their dues.
(15:28):
Just because there are still peoplewho have had that experience today.
And so let's build our modelsto not include workflows that
would naturally lead to burnout,like overworking on hours.
unclear roles, unclear responsibilities,unclear context, client relationships that they don't have any say in and
(15:54):
things of all that nature that reallycome down to impacting their overall well being and how they show up to the job.
So it's, it's kind of like, uh, juststructural or rules based issues that
we're, we feel that we have to havein place when in reality we don't.
Uh, I have another saying, sorry I keepquoting myself right now, but um, when I talk about culture and I know that
(16:17):
people is an important thing with, thatyou like to talk about too, and I'm talking about people first cultures, and
I have a Saying that I again, I'm prettysure I put this together unless I don't remember stealing it from somewhere else.
But poor cultures rely onrules while strong culture.
No, it's weak cultures willrely on rules while strong cultures rely on relationships.
(16:39):
And I think we avoid the relationshippart too much because there's the rules in place and it's so easy for us as
accountants to follow rules becausethey're everywhere in the profession, but then we start following them when
we're running our business ratherthan looking to the people we work with and making sure that they have
what they need and that they are, asa term, you say, the psychological safety aspects of things are there.
(17:05):
In fact, why don't we go to that?
Cause I don't, I guess I can picture,but I've never had somebody define it for me or how you define it.
So when you talk about that psychologicalsafety in a firm, what does that mean?
And then the lack of that obviously isan issue that causes burnout, I assume.
Sure.
So more than just showing up, how doesthat person feel when they show up?
(17:30):
People talk about the Sunday scaries,
you
know.
What is that about?
Because I've cried in mycar before going to work.
That's not healthy.
That should not be acceptable.
Your boss should not make you afraid.
You should not constantly feel like if youmake a mistake, your job is on the line.
(17:55):
Something a team member came to mewith a really bad habit of asking is, was she on the chopping block?
I'm like, someone has said that to you.
Like you did not, right.
That is the psychological safety thatI'm talking about, that there is a level of perfection that is expected
(18:16):
from our clients that we need tocreate space for within our firms of a learning culture and safety to make
mistakes and grow and break these rulesthat we have been taught by these.
Bigger structures that aren't serving us.
Like we need to be available 24 seven.
(18:37):
We need to answer emails within an hour.
Everything is an emergency.
These things that keep us psychologicallyon edge and emotionally and energetically trained all the time.
That is not how we want to operate.
So it's not just about building workflowsthat are efficient and profitable.
We'll do that.
But it's going to be not at the sakeof your team or your mental health.
(19:03):
So talk about that then your teamor your mental health as well.
So when you're going in as operationshouse and you're working with somebody, obviously part of it's probably, Hey,
here's just best practices for processesand here's how we workflows and here's
how we can not, you know, have therule of 80 hours a week and that.
I'm guessing there's as much of helpingwith those processes in place as there is.
(19:27):
of just changing mindsets as well.
Is mindset a big part of it?
It's a huge part of it.
And a lot of it is self confidence.
It's less about thinking this is possible.
I think Accountants are verydollar and cents and I can easily prove the ROI on this.
So that's a quick, you know,roadblock I can get right over.
(19:49):
But then it comes down to like, I'mnot used to having conversations about feelings with my team.
And I don't know if I want to do that.
And I don't know whatthat's going to open up.
And I, you know, there's all this,what's on the other side of that door
here.
And what
I want to tell and share people is.
(20:13):
All the greatness in the world ison the other side of that door.
All the potential of your team ison the other side of that door.
All your free time is onthe other side of that door.
It's challenging.
It's difficult.
You'll have to learn how to hold space.
You'll have to learn how to Careabout your team members as humans.
(20:35):
It will be harder to fire them, right?
You will all in love with themas you should, in my opinion, if you take on the responsibility.
Of hiring someone, knowing whatthat means in American culture,
because your healthcare and all thesethings are tied to your employment.
(20:56):
If you choose to bring on a W2employee, even a contractor, don't get me started on that.
You have a responsibility to them and.
The people that I see, you know,I see owners lean so far into the servant leadership role that we have
to have a kind of reality check oflike, you're not a servant though, and there are roles and dynamics here
(21:18):
that like have to happen in order forthings to like be successful, right?
There has to be accountability andstructure, but a lot of the times I just want to tip the door into.
What if everyone just showed up asa human with the base mindset that they're here to do a really good job,
(21:39):
and they want to do a good job, andif they're not for some reason, let's
assume that it's a process issue first,before we assume it's a them issue.
That's all.
That's the mindset change.
I love that.
I love that.
And I love the whole thing of,you know, and I'm putting words
(22:00):
in your mouth, but looking at aperson as a person, not a job title.
And starting to love the people youwork with, which is something I talk about too, and how important, going back
to those relationships, if you buildrelationships with the people you work with, you know, sure, the accountability
is still going to be there, but you'renot going to have to do a lot of that because When people feel valued and they
(22:21):
feel valued when you get to know themon a personal level, the accountability
is not even a, not even really an issuebecause they know, Hey, I'm enjoying this.
I like what I'm doing.
I'm not being micromanaged.
I am, I know what I need todo and I'm getting it done.
So I think we need a lot more of that.
Uh, and, and that'll actually changethe, there's both a perception and a reality issue in accounting and both.
(22:45):
The reality is changing, Ithink, maybe not fast enough
in my mind, but perception'slagging, I think, a little bit.
So if we can highlight thosetypes of things, both will change.
Absolutely.
I think it was a recent AndrewHuberman episode that highlighted what actually makes employees happy,
people happy, is, I don't rememberexactly what the first thing is, but the second thing was autonomy.
(23:11):
Right.
Just having the freedom todo what you do well, and that touches on your micromanagement.
You won't have to do that when you'vebuilt that trust within your team and they know that you care about them.
So they want to do a good job for you.
It's built in.
Yep.
We just did a survey lastyear as a professional.
(23:31):
It's the Accountant'sProfessional Satisfaction Survey.
And we've been leaking dataout here and there, but we got the whole report coming out.
Actually, it'll be out beforewe release this episode.
But some of the things youjust said are in there.
And the way people work, uh, um, withautonomy is great in getting things done.
And, you know, I've told this storyon the podcast before plenty of times.
(23:53):
We've been in business 18 years.
We have 75 people now.
And over that time, we'vehad nine people leave.
And it's because we do those thingsthat you're suggesting should be done.
And at least that's the way I look at it.
So the
proof's in the pudding.
At least I can prove itout with what we have.
Add another one to our list.
Then we are always making a list of greatplaces to work like yours that do things
(24:17):
the way that we do them to say, like, youknow, this is the operations house way.
Even if they didn't come up throughoperations house, if you're an accountant or CPA looking for a good
place to work, you know, with good,like, that's also what we're trying to build is that those connections.
And giving back
and
goodwill, even if it's not somethingthat's directly bringing in business for you, goodwill will always do that.
(24:42):
Absolutely.
Starting with a pep talk.
And that was great goodwill.
And that's probably a goodspot to start to segue out.
But before I do that, I'll askyou two final questions not related to our conversation.
Anything you want to, that I didn'ttouch on or that you want to highlight before we start to close out here.
No, this was a ton of fun.
(25:03):
I appreciate the great questions.
All right.
Well, it was a lot of fun and I can'twait to have a further conversation
and hopefully see you out in thereal world someday before long.
But so the two final questions andit really goes into the things that you are passionate about already
is, you know, hey, when you're notout helping firms and helping people operationally, uh, psychologically
(25:25):
safe and more profitable, what areyour outside of the work passions?
What do you like doing?
Wow.
Um, so when I answer these questions,I feel like I answered them with
a work responses and I, I'velistened to other podcasts episodes.
I'm going to answer with my outside ofwork passion, which is chef's tables are number one for me and my husband.
(25:48):
We both grew up.
Kind of poor.
And so we didn't get to experiencea lot of different foods.
And so our favorite thing is to goto a chef's table where they give you a preset menu and wine pairings and
they teach you where the food comesfrom and why it tastes good together.
And like, that's my number one thing.
So I'd say hanging out with my husbandand going to chef's tables and go
(26:09):
birds, anything birds, Phillies,Eagles related, yeah, we will.
We'll go to sports games and yeah,we won the Super Bowl just weeks ago.
So, yes, you did.
I got the energy to fightanybody on this one.
All
right.
And then, oh, well, youjust said Chef Table.
My wife and I, today is, we'rerecording, I shouldn't even date this, but February 19th.
(26:30):
So, this is Thursday.
Yep.
Monday night, we went out to, we'rein Healdsburg, California right now.
And we went out to thisrestaurant called Little Saint.
Which is a completely vegan restaurant.
I'm not vegan, but thisis their food is amazing.
I think they're listed as one of the toprestaurants in the country or something.
I don't even know the statistics,but they had that night.
(26:53):
It was the chef's table.
You don't even have to worry about it.
They're just bringing the menu toyou and there was a wine pairing.
So exactly what you said andthe nine pairings were amazing.
And it was actually, I think one of ourfavorite nights out dining in a long time.
And it was a great time.
So it's
their art, you know, and you let themdo their thing and you just sit back and get inspired and taste delicious food.
(27:16):
So yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Do it wherever you go.
Anytime we travel, that'show we go and try the food.
Nice.
And that's, and that's, I'm going to haveto start looking for more of those too.
And then, last question.
People want to hear more aboutOperation House and what you're doing.
Uh, where would they look?
Where would they reach out?
What's best places tofind out what's happening?
(27:37):
Yeah, the best place to see whatI'm all about is on LinkedIn.
That's where I post allmy content and thoughts.
It's basically just a live diary.
And if you want to get some of yourprocesses looked at and talk about
your accounting operations at yourfirm, you can look at Operations.House.
All right.
Nice.
And my wife's been trying to sneak aroundthe back here while we've been talking.
(27:59):
She's hustling.
She's
getting ready for wine tasting becausethat's next when we're down here.
So enjoy.
Yep.
Well, Ashley, so muchfor being on the show.
I am so fortunate that, uh, ourpaths crossed, uh, in the last week.
And I, I can't wait to, uh, spend moretime finding out what's going on with you.
So thank you.
Thank you so much for the opportunity.
(28:20):
It's good to see you.
Thank you for joining ustoday on the unique CPA.
You can find the show notes fortoday's episode and learn more about trier@theuniquecpa.com.
Remember to subscribe andleave a five star rating on your favorite podcasting app.
And join us next time for moreexpertise and insights on the unique CPA
(28:48):
professional productions.net.
Hello and welcome to the UniqueCPA with your host, Randy Crabtree.
Today, we bring you the first in aseries of episodes on the power of
community in the accountingprofession. We'll explore how strong
connections lead to healthier,more fulfilled professionals, and
together, create a supportivenetwork that enriches everyone.
The Unique CPA is broughtto you by Tri-Merit, the specialty tax professionals.
(00:24):
Today on the Unique CPA, we'rediving into one of the biggest challenges facing accounting firm
owners, and you may have heard mesay this before, but it's burnout.
And our guest, Ashley Carroll,isn't just talking about it.
She's fixing it.
She's a former accountant turned COO.
Ashley founded Operations House to help.
Firm owners break free fromthe burnout cycle by rethinking their business structures.
(00:48):
She's proven that profitabilityand psychological safety can go hand in hand, and that a firm can
be both scalable and sustainablewithout sacrificing well being.
There's another reason we're talking too,which I'm probably going to get into this first, but I Actually met Ashley, I think
six days ago now, so we're going fromnot knowing each other six days ago to recording and one it's because of this
(01:13):
passion I see she has for burnout in theprofession, but really we met because of this really cool thing she's doing right
now, or her firm is, it's the professionalpep talk and we'll get deeper into that.
So enough of me talking, Ashley,welcome to the Unique CPA.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah.
And so before we even talk about theburnout, which is a huge passionate topic
(01:34):
of mine, and this probably relates, let'stalk about that professional pep talk.
Because when I saw this on social media,what you were doing, I was just intrigued.
I was just like, this is amazing.
Why didn't I think of this,all this kind of stuff.
So why don't you give us alittle background on what this is that you're doing right now?
(01:55):
Sure.
Thank you.
Well, that is mostly the feedback thatwe've gotten, and we're so thrilled.
This came about because I havehonestly been having a hard time.
I'm in second year ofgrowing Operations House and.
What we do is very unique.
We have very unique approach tohelping accounting firms grow and we
(02:17):
are planting our message deeply andthat takes time and we know that.
And so my parents, uh, very lovinglyhave been sending me text messages once a morning, just little things.
I think they go on Google and grab them.
And you know, it's just, you'vegot this, you know, toughness is.
(02:37):
greatness.
And it just, as much as Icouldn't believe it, those little messages after a few weeks.
We're really meaning a lot to methat if my dad didn't send one, I was like, I don't feel right.
I don't feel jazzed up.
And I was sitting with my teamon Thursday, the day before we
met and I said, guys, you know,this thing has been happening.
(03:01):
My dad's been doing this for me.
We have something called TeaTime Thursdays, where we just get
together at the end of a Thursday,and we spill the tea on the week.
We just say everythingthat we're thinking.
It starts with a feelingswheel, and we just pick our emotions, and we go from there.
And I was telling my team about this, andI said, you know, wouldn't it be so cool
if we could just send, like, these peptalks to people just when they need them?
(03:23):
And my chief of staff, Fanni, who isjust When I've got an idea and it's meant to go, she's not going to let it go.
She said post it tonight.
Oh, wow.
I said, okay, let me,let me think about it.
Let me, um, I got it all togetherthat night, post it Friday morning, and we're about 25 pep talks in now.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
And I requested one of them fora group of, I think, six people.
(03:45):
So I thank you for doing that.
And the response was immediate.
As soon as you sent that out, I got,this is a group of seven of us that are in a text chat, all accountants, and
they immediately responded with a thankyou, and where'd you get this, this idea is amazing, that kind of information.
(04:05):
So, yes, it's making a difference and Iappreciate the fact that you did that.
Absolutely.
I think one of the things that isleading into burnout and for me as an accountant, it's quite a thankless job.
We can be seen as end of the totempole, the red headed department, you know, we're not as cool as marketing.
(04:25):
We're the necessary evil of a startupculture and expenses and providers.
And sometimes I just really wanted someoneto be like, you're making a difference.
You're doing a good job.
Like you're making an impact.
And I think on the form, we just havelike five different options about, you know, like keep going or you're
(04:45):
making a difference is somethingis going to change, but mostly people want it to just hear that.
It was going to be okay.
Like the most chosen option was that tokeep going the one step at a time option.
And I think that is just so importantto acknowledge that people are missing
that kind of positive feedback andpositive affirmation in this industry.
(05:10):
Yeah.
No.
Well, that's great.
Well, that, that kind of seguesinto, uh, operations House.
But before we get there, let's talkabout your journey, you know, from accountant to COO to Operations House.
And then, you know, that that journeyreally led you in the long run of focusing
on burnout and fixing the problem withinaccounting firms and other places.
So why don't you give us that background?
(05:30):
Sure.
So I never wanted to bean accountant per se.
I was guided into becoming an accountant.
By someone who said, get adegree in something you don't
want to have to pay someone foronce you run your own business.
And, you know, I thought, okay,let me try out accounting.
And it was just very black and white.
It clicked, you know, I'd been good atmath, kind of similar to your experience
(05:54):
where you just found it and switchedto it and you went from there, it fit.
And it was a good fit.
But when I was about to graduate, Ikind of had like a crisis and went to my
marketing professor actually and said, Idon't think I want to be an accountant.
Like, I don't see howgoing to the big four.
Like, I don't think I'm goingto survive, like, and He said, well, what do you want to do?
(06:19):
And I said, I want to help people.
Like my whole dream wasto start a nonprofit.
He said, helping people and being anaccountant is not mutually exclusive.
And that sentence hasbeen ingrained in my mind.
Thank you, Professor.
Because.
Yeah, I, that opened up a world forme and he told me to go get a job as a staff accountant at a nonprofit.
(06:41):
Really?
Alright, nice.
So I started my journey there as astaff accountant and I was reporting
to the board and one day the boardasked me, What is this line item?
And when I unpacked it all, the lineitem was 86% Late fees on our loans that we are giving out to constituents.
(07:01):
So we were a CDFI giving out loansto low income constituents for payday loans, um, getting them out of predatory
loans, daycare, some things that youcouldn't get through traditional lending.
And 86 percent of the lendingmoney that we had out was late.
And that was going ontheir credit reports.
(07:25):
This was like a bigger impact at thisone question in the general ledger.
Was actually uncovering and tellingthe story of, and so that was not going to settle right with me.
I knew I was just a staff accountant,but I did not care about grant money without a lot of encouragement.
I said, we got to figureout what the problem is.
(07:46):
And after talking with the bank tellersat the CDFI, it was just that we didn't have an online payment processor.
Which was crazy to me that it was 2017 andwe didn't have a payment processor Yeah, I have plenty of ways to make my bills pay
online, you know So I spent a year workingwith the federal reserve bank and the cdfi to build a ach payment processing system
(08:10):
Wow,
and that was my introduction segue intooperations And as soon as that went live, we turned it onto the website.
A month later we were down to 9% late.
Like amazing.
79% of people justwanted to pay their bill.
Right.
And we were living in rural SouthCarolina with no bus system.
(08:30):
Mm-hmm
. You know.
Mm-hmm
. And people just had no way of getting there.
And so that really showed methat the technology for good, that's possible we can do this.
Mm-hmm . And so I. Pivoted.
I tapped, you know, my potentialthere of making change and I decided, you know, okay, I'm going to take
this accounting skillset to a remotefirm who really enjoys technology and, and try to play my hand there.
(08:56):
So I went to work with BrandonHall for a while, fantastic leader.
And he gave me the opportunity tohelp grow his accounting service line.
In the early stages.
And from there I went to work forNicole McKenzie at momentum accounting.
She was looking for a staffaccountant and I replied to the job
description and said, I would loveto do anything, but accounting work.
(09:21):
And I think that got her attention enoughto be like, okay, what do you want to do?
And I said, I want to take careof your team and your clients.
And I want to show you that itwill make you a ton of money because I had been sitting there.
In that role, and we had a salespersonwho wasn't really an accountant who
(09:41):
was giving me my work and had my role,but I didn't have all the authority.
You know, I was still, youknow, lower in the ranks.
This was just my second job.
So I was really shooting my shot here.
She allowed me in.
And from there I grew to C. O. O. 40percent profit margins at the end of four years, 0 percent turnover with the team.
(10:02):
9. 7 NPS score.
I mean, just a happyteam, successful business.
And I thought.
Okay, you know, like, I've done this,Nicole explained to me that she had everything that she dreamed of, that
satisfied me, and I was like, I'm going togo get everything I'm dreaming about too.
And that's where Operation House came in?
(10:23):
And that's whereOperations House comes in.
All
right.
And then, before I ask the next question.
Man, I'm surprised wedidn't cross paths yet.
Cause Brandon Hall's a friend of mine.
Nicole McKenzie's a friend of mine.
In fact, Nicole and I werein a rap video together.
So,
Oh,
that was you?
(10:43):
That's so funny!
Yeah, her and Scott?
I'm always in the shadows,just in the background.
That's the best part aboutbeing the CEO overall.
That kind of really fits me, but yeah.
Being out front now, it's reallyfun to be able for everyone to kind of put a face to a lot of
the things that
they've known about.
And
that video was actually, that songwas called CPA Now, which was the
unique CPA theme for our conferencethe first year, a couple of years ago.
(11:06):
So
that was
fun.
All right.
So now obviously you helped Nicole,you helped Brandon, you got them to their firms, to places that obviously
Nicole, very happy, has everythingthat she ever dreamed of having.
But then you went on toOperations House and really.
I think a major focus, I mean, youcan, I don't want to put words in
your mouth, is, you know, fixing theburnout problem in accounting firms.
(11:28):
And so how did that become an emphasisof what you wanted to do with your consulting work or with firms?
Yeah, I recognize how lucky I wasto be in the position that I was in.
A lot of why I wanted to go into nonprofit work was originally to give.
(11:48):
Women who did not have maybe a traditionalpath, like my own mom, who was a single mom who did not have a college
education, she worked her way up froman admin assistant at a procurement agency up to a doctor of procurement now.
And I still believe that path ispossible with the right encouragement, connections, training, teaching.
(12:09):
And I wanted to build anonprofit that basically gave.
trained women on those entry level skills.
So that had always kind ofbeen in the back of my mind.
How do I start to share my journey andthe way that I grew through the levels of accounting from staff accountant to
(12:30):
senior associate to manager to operations,you know, if that's somewhere you want
to go, onboarding specialist, some ofthese other roles that accountants.
Would like to be in that are notnecessarily a direct path that they're given at the Big Four, and just start
to educate people out there about whatthe different options are So it came
(12:51):
from wanting to share with people thatthere were better options out there.
I have my own journey with mental healththat i'm pretty public about and to see Other people in the accounting industry,
especially in the big four and whatthey're struggling and dealing with.
(13:11):
And having had a taste of that in my ownway, just, you know, I think there's a lot of the same, it's a. Industry problem.
I would say burnout isnot a personal problem.
This is a industry problem.
And so I saw that and I knew that if Ican make a difference at this one firm, I can make a difference at all the firms.
(13:35):
I truly believe that.
And so my mission is to create achange in the accounting world.
Not just to stop at one firm orone firm that I'm working at.
That's not my mission that I've proven it.
And we're going to go out thereand pressure kindly, lovingly the other firms into treating their
(13:57):
teams better by building firms thatalready do it and taking their talent.
Nice.
So that's why you and I connectedso quickly is because we have same passions and ideals.
You just said that your mission, Iactually have, I just had to look it up here because I'm still messing it up when
I say it, but my personal mission is tohave a positive impact on people in the accounting profession by inspiring change.
(14:22):
And I think we align in that, evenif we say it a little bit different.
But anytime I talk to anybody that hasthat mindset, it's just, I'm so impressed.
So let's talk about thata little bit further then.
So obviously you showed that youdidn't have to deal with burnout and you help people avoid that.
Why do you think for amoment struggle with burnout?
(14:43):
Before I even ask that, cause youhave a term or you have something
you say out there that you talk aboutburnout as a business model flaw.
What do you mean by that?
This is a structural organizational flaw.
We don't have to have processesin place, hours in place that lead to burnout within our team.
(15:05):
It is possible to provide great accountingservices, whether it be tax or advisory.
Without burning out our team.
So just because things have been donein the way that they have been where it's required 80 hour work weeks
during tax season, and that's justbusy season and just push through it.
No one else should have to pay their dues.
(15:28):
Just because there are still peoplewho have had that experience today.
And so let's build our modelsto not include workflows that
would naturally lead to burnout,like overworking on hours.
unclear roles, unclear responsibilities,unclear context, client relationships that they don't have any say in and
(15:54):
things of all that nature that reallycome down to impacting their overall well being and how they show up to the job.
So it's, it's kind of like, uh, juststructural or rules based issues that
we're, we feel that we have to havein place when in reality we don't.
Uh, I have another saying, sorry I keepquoting myself right now, but um, when I talk about culture and I know that
(16:17):
people is an important thing with, thatyou like to talk about too, and I'm talking about people first cultures, and
I have a Saying that I again, I'm prettysure I put this together unless I don't remember stealing it from somewhere else.
But poor cultures rely onrules while strong culture.
No, it's weak cultures willrely on rules while strong cultures rely on relationships.
(16:39):
And I think we avoid the relationshippart too much because there's the rules in place and it's so easy for us as
accountants to follow rules becausethey're everywhere in the profession, but then we start following them when
we're running our business ratherthan looking to the people we work with and making sure that they have
what they need and that they are, asa term, you say, the psychological safety aspects of things are there.
(17:05):
In fact, why don't we go to that?
Cause I don't, I guess I can picture,but I've never had somebody define it for me or how you define it.
So when you talk about that psychologicalsafety in a firm, what does that mean?
And then the lack of that obviously isan issue that causes burnout, I assume.
Sure.
So more than just showing up, how doesthat person feel when they show up?
(17:30):
People talk about the Sunday scaries,
you
know.
What is that about?
Because I've cried in mycar before going to work.
That's not healthy.
That should not be acceptable.
Your boss should not make you afraid.
You should not constantly feel like if youmake a mistake, your job is on the line.
(17:55):
Something a team member came to mewith a really bad habit of asking is, was she on the chopping block?
I'm like, someone has said that to you.
Like you did not, right.
That is the psychological safety thatI'm talking about, that there is a level of perfection that is expected
(18:16):
from our clients that we need tocreate space for within our firms of a learning culture and safety to make
mistakes and grow and break these rulesthat we have been taught by these.
Bigger structures that aren't serving us.
Like we need to be available 24 seven.
(18:37):
We need to answer emails within an hour.
Everything is an emergency.
These things that keep us psychologicallyon edge and emotionally and energetically trained all the time.
That is not how we want to operate.
So it's not just about building workflowsthat are efficient and profitable.
We'll do that.
But it's going to be not at the sakeof your team or your mental health.
(19:03):
So talk about that then your teamor your mental health as well.
So when you're going in as operationshouse and you're working with somebody, obviously part of it's probably, Hey,
here's just best practices for processesand here's how we workflows and here's
how we can not, you know, have therule of 80 hours a week and that.
I'm guessing there's as much of helpingwith those processes in place as there is.
(19:27):
of just changing mindsets as well.
Is mindset a big part of it?
It's a huge part of it.
And a lot of it is self confidence.
It's less about thinking this is possible.
I think Accountants are verydollar and cents and I can easily prove the ROI on this.
So that's a quick, you know,roadblock I can get right over.
(19:49):
But then it comes down to like, I'mnot used to having conversations about feelings with my team.
And I don't know if I want to do that.
And I don't know whatthat's going to open up.
And I, you know, there's all this,what's on the other side of that door
here.
And what
I want to tell and share people is.
(20:13):
All the greatness in the world ison the other side of that door.
All the potential of your team ison the other side of that door.
All your free time is onthe other side of that door.
It's challenging.
It's difficult.
You'll have to learn how to hold space.
You'll have to learn how to Careabout your team members as humans.
(20:35):
It will be harder to fire them, right?
You will all in love with themas you should, in my opinion, if you take on the responsibility.
Of hiring someone, knowing whatthat means in American culture,
because your healthcare and all thesethings are tied to your employment.
(20:56):
If you choose to bring on a W2employee, even a contractor, don't get me started on that.
You have a responsibility to them and.
The people that I see, you know,I see owners lean so far into the servant leadership role that we have
to have a kind of reality check oflike, you're not a servant though, and there are roles and dynamics here
(21:18):
that like have to happen in order forthings to like be successful, right?
There has to be accountability andstructure, but a lot of the times I just want to tip the door into.
What if everyone just showed up asa human with the base mindset that they're here to do a really good job,
(21:39):
and they want to do a good job, andif they're not for some reason, let's
assume that it's a process issue first,before we assume it's a them issue.
That's all.
That's the mindset change.
I love that.
I love that.
And I love the whole thing of,you know, and I'm putting words
(22:00):
in your mouth, but looking at aperson as a person, not a job title.
And starting to love the people youwork with, which is something I talk about too, and how important, going back
to those relationships, if you buildrelationships with the people you work with, you know, sure, the accountability
is still going to be there, but you'renot going to have to do a lot of that because When people feel valued and they
(22:21):
feel valued when you get to know themon a personal level, the accountability
is not even a, not even really an issuebecause they know, Hey, I'm enjoying this.
I like what I'm doing.
I'm not being micromanaged.
I am, I know what I need todo and I'm getting it done.
So I think we need a lot more of that.
Uh, and, and that'll actually changethe, there's both a perception and a reality issue in accounting and both.
(22:45):
The reality is changing, Ithink, maybe not fast enough
in my mind, but perception'slagging, I think, a little bit.
So if we can highlight thosetypes of things, both will change.
Absolutely.
I think it was a recent AndrewHuberman episode that highlighted what actually makes employees happy,
people happy, is, I don't rememberexactly what the first thing is, but the second thing was autonomy.
(23:11):
Right.
Just having the freedom todo what you do well, and that touches on your micromanagement.
You won't have to do that when you'vebuilt that trust within your team and they know that you care about them.
So they want to do a good job for you.
It's built in.
Yep.
We just did a survey lastyear as a professional.
(23:31):
It's the Accountant'sProfessional Satisfaction Survey.
And we've been leaking dataout here and there, but we got the whole report coming out.
Actually, it'll be out beforewe release this episode.
But some of the things youjust said are in there.
And the way people work, uh, um, withautonomy is great in getting things done.
And, you know, I've told this storyon the podcast before plenty of times.
(23:53):
We've been in business 18 years.
We have 75 people now.
And over that time, we'vehad nine people leave.
And it's because we do those thingsthat you're suggesting should be done.
And at least that's the way I look at it.
So the
proof's in the pudding.
At least I can prove itout with what we have.
Add another one to our list.
Then we are always making a list of greatplaces to work like yours that do things
(24:17):
the way that we do them to say, like, youknow, this is the operations house way.
Even if they didn't come up throughoperations house, if you're an accountant or CPA looking for a good
place to work, you know, with good,like, that's also what we're trying to build is that those connections.
And giving back
and
goodwill, even if it's not somethingthat's directly bringing in business for you, goodwill will always do that.
(24:42):
Absolutely.
Starting with a pep talk.
And that was great goodwill.
And that's probably a goodspot to start to segue out.
But before I do that, I'll askyou two final questions not related to our conversation.
Anything you want to, that I didn'ttouch on or that you want to highlight before we start to close out here.
No, this was a ton of fun.
(25:03):
I appreciate the great questions.
All right.
Well, it was a lot of fun and I can'twait to have a further conversation
and hopefully see you out in thereal world someday before long.
But so the two final questions andit really goes into the things that you are passionate about already
is, you know, hey, when you're notout helping firms and helping people operationally, uh, psychologically
(25:25):
safe and more profitable, what areyour outside of the work passions?
What do you like doing?
Wow.
Um, so when I answer these questions,I feel like I answered them with
a work responses and I, I'velistened to other podcasts episodes.
I'm going to answer with my outside ofwork passion, which is chef's tables are number one for me and my husband.
(25:48):
We both grew up.
Kind of poor.
And so we didn't get to experiencea lot of different foods.
And so our favorite thing is to goto a chef's table where they give you a preset menu and wine pairings and
they teach you where the food comesfrom and why it tastes good together.
And like, that's my number one thing.
So I'd say hanging out with my husbandand going to chef's tables and go
(26:09):
birds, anything birds, Phillies,Eagles related, yeah, we will.
We'll go to sports games and yeah,we won the Super Bowl just weeks ago.
So, yes, you did.
I got the energy to fightanybody on this one.
All
right.
And then, oh, well, youjust said Chef Table.
My wife and I, today is, we'rerecording, I shouldn't even date this, but February 19th.
(26:30):
So, this is Thursday.
Yep.
Monday night, we went out to, we'rein Healdsburg, California right now.
And we went out to thisrestaurant called Little Saint.
Which is a completely vegan restaurant.
I'm not vegan, but thisis their food is amazing.
I think they're listed as one of the toprestaurants in the country or something.
I don't even know the statistics,but they had that night.
(26:53):
It was the chef's table.
You don't even have to worry about it.
They're just bringing the menu toyou and there was a wine pairing.
So exactly what you said andthe nine pairings were amazing.
And it was actually, I think one of ourfavorite nights out dining in a long time.
And it was a great time.
So it's
their art, you know, and you let themdo their thing and you just sit back and get inspired and taste delicious food.
(27:16):
So yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Do it wherever you go.
Anytime we travel, that'show we go and try the food.
Nice.
And that's, and that's, I'm going to haveto start looking for more of those too.
And then, last question.
People want to hear more aboutOperation House and what you're doing.
Uh, where would they look?
Where would they reach out?
What's best places tofind out what's happening?
(27:37):
Yeah, the best place to see whatI'm all about is on LinkedIn.
That's where I post allmy content and thoughts.
It's basically just a live diary.
And if you want to get some of yourprocesses looked at and talk about
your accounting operations at yourfirm, you can look at Operations.House.
All right.
Nice.
And my wife's been trying to sneak aroundthe back here while we've been talking.
(27:59):
She's hustling.
She's
getting ready for wine tasting becausethat's next when we're down here.
So enjoy.
Yep.
Well, Ashley, so muchfor being on the show.
I am so fortunate that, uh, ourpaths crossed, uh, in the last week.
And I, I can't wait to, uh, spend moretime finding out what's going on with you.
So thank you.
Thank you so much for the opportunity.
(28:20):
It's good to see you.
Thank you for joining ustoday on the unique CPA.
You can find the show notes fortoday's episode and learn more about trier@theuniquecpa.com.
Remember to subscribe andleave a five star rating on your favorite podcasting app.
And join us next time for moreexpertise and insights on the unique CPA
(28:48):
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