March 25, 2025 • 37 mins
Randy Crabtree kicks off a two part conversation with Nancy McClelland, the Dancing Accountant, on Episode 204 of The Unique CPA. Their discussion will conclude the series on the impact of community in the accounting profession, where they delve into Nancy's journey from bookkeeping to becoming a CPA and the evolution of her business and identity. Nancy shares her insights on how pivotal relationships are to everything she does as owner of a “hyperlocal” firm, and the inspiration behind her initiative, “Ask a CPA,” which aims to foster collaboration between bookkeepers and tax professionals. The discussion highlights how better connections within the profession can lead to a more efficient and more mentally healthy work environment, which increases productivity and satisfaction, ultimately benefiting everyone involved.
Get the full show notes and more resources at TheUniqueCPA.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, and welcome to the uniqueCPA with your host Randy Crabtree.
Today we continue our series ofepisodes on the power of community in the accounting profession.
We'll explore how strong connectionslead to healthier, more fulfilled
professionals, and together create asupportive network that enriches everyone.
The unique CPA A is brought to youby Tri-Merit, the specialty tax
(00:23):
professionals.
Today on The Unique CPA, we'rejoined by Nancy McClelland, better known as the Dancing Accountant.
Nancy is an award-winning CPA,educator and founder of “Ask a CPA,” which I'm excited to talk about
today. “Ask a CPA” is a communitydedicated to bridging the gap.
Sound familiar.
Bridging the gap betweenbookkeepers and tax professionals.
(00:45):
Nancy's career is built onrelationships, whether with small
business clients, accountingprofessionals, or the broader community.
I'll vouch to that, but shedidn't start out as a CPA.
We'll talk about that as well.
Her journey from bookkeeping toowning her own firm as a story of
evolution, learning and embracingher unique approach to accounting.
Nancy, welcome to The Unique CPA.
(01:07):
A.
Thank you, Randy, and whata beautiful introduction.
I feel like that might be the nicestintroduction anyone's ever given me.
Uh, well, it's, I, believe me, I had tocut stuff out 'cause I was gonna talk about how much to steal Kristen Keats,
how much joy you bring to accounting,how much fun you have with it.
How, you know, anytime I see you acrossthe room at a conference, my face lights up because it's just the energy you bring.
(01:31):
So, yeah, now I addedthose things as well.
Yeah, yeah.
No kidding.
You just.
You just, uh, you edited them outand then you just put them back in.
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate it, and I'm sohappy to finally be on the show.
Wait, finally, was that, was that
Randy?
Randy?
Didn't this happen sooner?
(01:53):
Well, honestly, we've onlyknown each other about a year.
Well, it's getting, it's,it's less than two years.
Oh, yeah, you're right.
Because I guess we met in personat the first Bridging the Gap.
Yeah, which was August of 23 andwe were recording in March of 25.
So it's not much more than a year anda half, but it feels like I've known you for a long time, which is, is good.
(02:15):
It feels
like I've you for a long time.
Partially because Beer Temple, whichyou're one of the owners of, is one of our favorite bars in Chicago.
It's walking distance from our place.
So in a way, I feel like a deeperconnection with you because we, you know, we have that beautiful thing in common.
Fear.
Yes, we do.
But we haven't gone theretogether, which we tried.
No, you tried.
And I was not able to do it.
(02:35):
So we will make it happenthis year for sure.
We'll make
it happen,
uh, during our birthday month.
Maybe we'll get there in May.
Yeah.
So we both
have our may birthdays.
I'm really looking forward to that.
I'll be back from Mexico.
You'll be back from California?
Yep.
It'll be great.
Yep.
All right.
Let's jump into this becausethere's a lot to talk about today.
Starting with what I talkedabout in the intro a little bit.
Your journey of starting asa bookkeeper to become a CPA.
(02:58):
You want to give us that, that a littlebit of background on that journey.
I.
Absolutely.
I'd be happy.
I have run my own bookkeeping,tax, accounting and advisory firm.
You mentioned it's calledThe Dancing Accountant.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, for almost 24 years now, whichis kind of mind blowing to me.
I started as a bookkeeper and Iworked internally at a few different places, nonprofits and creative.
(03:23):
My undergraduate degree isactually in music education.
I don't know if you knew that, so
I think you told me, but yeah.
That's cool.
Yeah.
So my, my first job as a bookkeeperwas at the Ann Arbor School for the Performing Arts, and I was
teaching music theory part-time andI was the office manager part-time.
And wow, did I realize how much theyneeded a person like me in the office doing the books because creative
(03:50):
folks are amazing, but you know,this was just not their strength and.
That was where I started to realize thatas much as I loved the creative side of things, you know, I mean I was studying
music education, so I wanted to be ateacher, and bookkeeping was something where I felt like I was teaching people,
you know, like when you work with aclient, you have to explain things to them
(04:13):
and the more patient you can be and themore perspectives you can look at it from.
That's all stuff that my,my undergraduate degree.
Music education helped me with.
So from there, you know, once I movedto Chicago, I was working in Hyde Park as a, an accounting supervisor.
And when I left that thought, well,I'll just, I'll just temp for a while.
(04:36):
And that first temp job turnedinto my first client and they.
Did outsourced CFO workwas what they needed.
And I had experience with their accountingsystem, which was Great Plains Dynamics.
And from there it really snowballed.
It absolutely snowballed.
And now 24 years later, youknow, I branched out into tax.
(04:59):
I got my master's once I decidedI wanted to tackle advisory work, and only then did I become a CPA.
Was that the why?
Only then was it?
Was one 50 part of,
not at all.
Were you under?
Uh, well, I think the one 50 rule wasin place when I became a CPA, but I
actually am not a hundred percent surebecause it wasn't an issue for me.
(05:23):
Right.
I, I mean, this was my master's degree.
I was getting a master's degree inaccounting and financial management because my undergraduate degree
had been in music education, and Iwanted to get a degree, not because
my clients cared, I wanted to becomea CPA, not because my clients cared.
The type of work didn't reallychange, but kind of my ability to.
(05:43):
Look at the numbers and figureout how they were telling a story.
That was something I really wantedto figure out for my clients, and
so I was getting my master's justbecause I'm interested in this stuff.
I love tax.
I love accounting.
I love bookkeeping.
I love helping small businesses, andI think this is the biggest impact that we can make, is by being an
(06:05):
accountant, being in a professionthat helps them do what they do.
To increase the vitality ofcommunities that they live in.
And we have a very niche practicein terms of our geography.
We have a really, a micro niche,I guess you would call it.
We're hyper-local.
It's just our neighborhood of LoganSquare in Chicago, and every once in a
(06:30):
while I'll accept a client from outsideof our neighborhood, but even that.
You know, we have our ideal client profileand we really like to stick with it.
So these are the places wherewe eat and drink, and these are the stores where we shop.
These are the people we call forprofessional services, right?
These are very much the peoplein our community and we're really proud of serving them.
(06:53):
Huh.
So the only thing I'm disappointedthere is niche, not niche, but that's,
do you and Kelly Parks havea disagreement on that one?
It sounds like
we do.
Is that the only thingthat you guys disagree on?
Is that like your big, is thatpreventing you from really?
Becoming besties.
Uh,
I think she drinks Coors Light.
(07:14):
That might be the only other thing.
So
bless your heart, Kelly.
I don't think I can agree withyou on that one either, but
yes, but that's, other than that,I'm feeling after 220 episodes or
wherever we're at now of the podcastthat I'm in the minority with niche.
With niche and niche.
I'm finding out that,
yeah, I dunno, I think I go back and forthdepending on, depending on the sentence.
(07:38):
It might be equal opportunity on that one.
I haven't decided yet.
All right.
Well that, that's cool.
Another thing that, that came out ofthat discussion is 24 years in business.
I've never done anything for 24years, so, well, other than me married to Kathy and my wife.
We're at 38 years now, so Wow.
Congratulations.
That's beautiful.
(07:58):
Yep.
And, but yeah, 24 years.
I was just then that, the onlyreason I thought that is 'cause this
morning, no, yesterday morning Iwas thinking, I think Trier's now.
The longest business thatI've stayed in involved with.
Uh, and
how long, how long is that?
We're 18 years.
18. We're just shortof 18 years right now.
My accounting firm was.
(08:19):
15 years, but if I count thepart-time that I was doing on the
side before I went full blast, thatwould've been 18 years probably.
So I think we probably just passed it now.
I, uh, I don't know whythis is about me now.
Let's get back to you.
It's not, it's wonderful.
I'm so excited to hear thatbecause it makes me feel.
(08:41):
Like 24 is, I mean, that,that is an big deal.
Accomplishment.
It's a big deal.
We, you know, we had the most wonderfulparty since I, I mentioned that we have this hyperlocal firm, right?
Yep.
For our 21st anniversary.
It was supposed to be20th, but pandemic, right?
So we did a 21st anniversaryand we build it as.
Finally, our firm is old enoughto drink and it was wonderful.
(09:04):
We threw a huge party in the communitythat was open to the community.
The Logan Square Chamber of Commerce isone of our clients and they co-hosted it with us, and we had it at the Park
Solidarity Park, which is right outsidethe doors of the Chamber of Commerce.
A client of mine that's a bandWilder and the free for alls they.
Performed and clients donated differentthings for our little goodie bags.
(09:27):
And it was a huge, beautiful blowoutrevolution, donated the beer and
uh, I mean, it was like just suchan amazing community experience.
And so that was a very special moment inmy life where I was like, wow, we have been making a difference for a long time.
I mean, Logan Square, you know, itgets voted coolest neighborhood, not only in Chicago, but in the country.
(09:50):
On a regular basis and like we're partof, we're part of making that happen.
Like helping keep these clients healthy.
Yeah, well they have a dancing accountant,so obviously that makes it cool.
So, you know, that was
actually a client thatgave me that name, Randy.
I didn't come up with that.
We're gonna have to getinto that in a second.
But before we do a couplethings, you just keep making me think about different things.
But a Revolution Brewery, which isa Chicago based brewery, a friend of mine is their CFO, but he's CFO
(10:17):
slash and I think he's, his titleis CMO as well, head of marketing.
So he's like got this
Marketing and finance.
Yes, exactly.
He's kinda like you.
Very creative.
But then also I've got the,uh, you know, the numerical numbers side of things, and he's.
Oh, I don't know.
I haven't looked in him a while,but he's, I think he's got a lot of followers on Instagram where he dos
(10:39):
these really cool, like just videosand stuff about beer and whatnot.
But he was on the podcastwas the whole point.
You know, a couple years ago,Doug Vi Lucky, oh, I missed, was on the podcast, so, yeah.
Oh, that's so
cool.
Well, you know, so what happenedthere is that Josh Deeth was who?
Is the head of Revolution Brewing?
Yeah.
He actually was the first directorof the Logan Square Chamber of
(11:02):
Commerce when it branched off andbecame its own Chamber of Commerce.
Oh, wow.
And his wife is a bookkeeper, and sohe, as he would say, knew enough to be
dangerous and he would keep the booksfor the Logan Square Chamber of Commerce.
And then when he left.
And was passing the torch to thenext executive director, Josh reached out to me and said, Hey, this person
(11:24):
who's coming in doesn't have asmuch experience with bookkeeping.
Would you be willing to help us out?
And that is how westarted working together.
Wow, that's pretty cool.
All right, so we'll get away fromhyperlocal now on, you and I can talk about you don't want to niche anymore.
Niche or niche.
No, that's fine.
I love it.
But because it's really, tome, that's, I, you know what?
Let's not go away from that.
(11:45):
'cause I love that a lot.
'cause I like niche practices.
But I never, one of the niches that, andI know we've talked about this before,
but I never really thought about thatdeep, having a niche of just a community.
Yeah.
Which
is what it is.
And that's actually pretty cool.
Did you start out that way or did it justlike, I just don't want to leave home?
I mean, how did the,
(12:08):
well, it was very organic.
As you may have noticed, I ampretty outgoing and gregarious.
Yes.
You and
I have a few things in common.
We're both talkers and we're both reallypassionate about what we do, and so I
would just be out there in the communityduring a period of time, you know?
When Logan Square was experiencingvery organic growth, and you know,
(12:34):
I would get really excited everytime a new restaurant would open.
I would get really excited when anew shop would open and I would go in
because I'm a resident of that communityand I'm invested in that community.
So I would stop in andI would check them out.
I believe very strongly inshopping small and buying local.
That is definitely one of the.
(12:56):
Key things in our mission.
Also, one of the reasons that wehave chosen not to offshore is
that we really, personally believethat's just one of our values.
And so I would go in places and wewould start chatting and I would say, oh, when did you start your business?
And I would tell I'm the worst personin the world at sales and marketing.
(13:18):
Intentionally.
I am pretty awesome at it unintentionally.
Yeah, because I just talk and I listenand I'm curious, you know, and so we would be chatting and I would ask about
their struggles and challenges, and almostinvariably it would come up that, you
know, they didn't know what they weredoing with their books or their taxes.
(13:38):
And I'd be like, oh, that'skind of a cool coincidence.
Here's my card.
And the next thing you know,you know, we had accidentally built a hyper-local practice.
But one of the things that'sreally interesting about that is that our firm is fully remote.
You know, we've never had a brickand mortar location because all of my team members, you know, initially
they were in Chicago, but as youknow, they wanted to move to different places, Atlanta and New York.
(14:03):
And it seemed like a shame to lose them.
There was this cool thing calledZoom, and so I was like, I guess we don't really need to lose you.
So we became a remote firm because wewanted to hang on to our people and I
was the only one who met with clientsanyway, and I was meeting with them.
I. At, like, cafe Mustache is one of myfavorite cafes and bars as somebody who likes to go out in the neighborhood.
(14:27):
And so it kind of became my office.
Either there or Reno.
I'd meet people there or I'd meet themat their businesses and yeah, so it,
it was extremely organic at this point,you know, it's, it's very intentional.
We rarely take on new clients, and whenwe do, they have to meet everything.
That we have set out inour ideal client profile.
And one of those things is that theyneed to be geographically, you know, located in or around our neighborhood.
(14:53):
And also they have to bemission based themselves.
So we work with a lot ofmental health professionals.
We work with, you know, all sorts oforganizations that are doing great things for nonprofits, et cetera.
That's, uh, I really like that story.
I could listen to that.
IJ we can go another hour just hearingabout this whole, we better not the
way you set up I'd, we won't to becauseI wanted to go to something else.
(15:17):
But before we do that, I justhave to tell you a story.
I. And when you were talking thereand telling us this whole, you know how you got new business and it was
curiosity, really there is beingpassion for what was going on in the
community, these new businesses comingin, and curiosity, that's something
that you talk about alot at Bridging the Gap.
Curiosity that is, you know,curiosity I also think is one of the pillars of mental health.
(15:39):
Yep.
And a sustainable practice.
Oh, for sure.
I, I got, you know what?
I need to build curiosity more into whatI say because I think that's important.
But, so Kathy and I, youmentioned, we were in California.
We just spent 27 hours drivingback or 30 hours from California.
We just got back and one ofthe books we listened to on the drive was called A Funny Story.
(16:01):
I dunno if you ever heard of the book.
No I haven't.
Great book.
Oh, I can't wait.
But in there, the main character, andI always forget character's names,
but I'm pretty sure his name was Milesor one of the two main characters.
Miles.
Now I'm gonna give a book review,
basically really good
talk for hours.
Yes, it would be the best way Icould think of to spend the day.
(16:25):
Just is one of these personalities thatis like you people, like one of the
characters would say to him, I just don'tunderstand how, why everybody loves you.
'cause you're curious, you askquestions, you want to know, you want
to hear what's happening and just behaving that curiosity with school.
And so I can see, I can just picture youbuilding your business, being in this new cafe that is like, this is amazing.
(16:47):
Uh, how did you start this?
What's going on?
What's your goals?
Yeah.
What.
And that just paying off.
So I love that as a businessdevelopment technique, even though that's not what it is.
Right.
I mean, I think that's one of thethings that, that made it so special is that it truly was inadvertent.
Yes.
Now knowing 24 yearslater, knowing what I know.
(17:08):
Yeah.
It is a piece of advice I give toeverybody everywhere, you know?
Yeah.
I think you and I are both hugefans of John Garrett, and I'm always
bragging about the fact that I wasthe first guest on his podcast,
What's Your And?
And that's something that he talks aboutin terms of the people that you work with.
Be curious about them, ask them questions.
But I would argue that youcan take that so much further.
(17:31):
It's not just the peoplethat you work with.
It's, you know, havecuriosity about your own.
Client base.
Yep.
Have curiosity abouthuman beings in general.
And you know, I really believe everybody'slike, oh, AI is gonna take our jobs away.
And I'm like, bring it on.
I want AI to take careof all the drudgery.
Yep.
I want them to leave thepersonal relationships.
(17:53):
To me, that's something that Iexcel at because I actually care.
What was it you were saying the other day?
I was saying, oh,
oh,
how amazing you are.
You know, thank you for being sosupportive and you, you said, well,
all you have to do is be nice
and
fun.
Fun and
fun.
Well, we added the fun laterbecause you asked, I had to apologize for not getting well.
(18:18):
Stuff done for our conference.
So it was really apologizing tomyself but apologizing to you that I hadn't sent some information.
'cause you're helping us with theconference and I, and my excuse was, I was just having too much fun 'cause family
was visiting us in California, so we,but you came up with this name, right?
You and I have to start ourown podcast and we'll call it the Nice and Fun podcast.
So the
nice and fun podcast.
(18:39):
Absolutely.
If I could give anybody one pieceof advice about building a client.
Space.
Just be nice
and fun and have fun.
Be nice and have fun.
All right?
Yeah.
All right, well, we can havebe nice and have fun all day.
We'll stick to the nice,we'll stick to the fun.
But let's get to the regularly scheduledprogram, which was really talking
(19:00):
about, and I'm not even gonna getthere yet, the ask a CPA community.
Because before we do that.
You know, we have to talkabout the Dancing Accountant and where this came from.
Was the, was your business calledthe Dancing Accountant from day one, or did this evolve into that?
Absolutely not.
Okay.
No, I had the world's most creativename you could possibly imagine.
(19:20):
For my company.
It was called Nancy McClelland.
LLC.
Yep.
Well, you may have been the most uniqueone and the only one that existed, so.
That is possible.
Yeah, so it was called NancyMcClelland, LLC, and I wanted to
rename it because I was just like, youknow, this doesn't reflect who I am.
It's my name, but what does it say, right?
(19:43):
And who's it going to attract?
Because another piece of advicethat I give to people when they are.
Building their accounting andbookkeeping firm is that you should be auditioning these clients as
much, these potential clients as muchas they're auditioning you, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Like you, you want to make sure thatit is a good fit from both sides and.
(20:05):
I don't want to work with peoplewho are boring or who think that
I am unprofessional because I,you know, wear colorful clothing.
And because I speak my mind, you know, Imean, I, I, I want to work with people who
are engaging and interesting and vibrantand nice and fun, as you were saying.
(20:27):
So I really wanted to change myname so that I would attract.
That kind of clientele.
And so I just kept thinking about,well, you know, we're a geographically hyperlocal firm, so maybe I'll call
it Blue Line Accounting becausemm-hmm we, I know what that means.
You know what that means.
Chicago Blue Line, I'mon the Logan Square stop.
And I was like, well, I don't reallytake the blue line that often to clients
(20:51):
because I can just walk there or ridemy bike there, so that doesn't work.
And I came up with a bunch of otherideas and nothing was really sticking.
And one day I, well, I'm a dancer.
I am a 1960s style Go-go dancer.
So think tall white boots, Nancy Sinatra.
These boots are made for walk-in.
(21:11):
So one day I was going to a little, itwas sort of a performance, it was this neat thing that we do at a pro bono
client of mine is Unity Park, which isin our neighborhood, not surprisingly.
Yeah.
And they have a greatprogram for the year.
Like they're.
Advisory Council is just really active increating a dynamic, engaging, you know,
(21:32):
whole series of entertainment and stufffor the families in the neighborhood.
And they had a thing where it wasa go go troupe that was teaching
little kids how to go go dance and,which is my very favorite part.
I also dance in Fabulous Ladiesof Fitness, which is a fake 80s
Jazzercise troop where we havethe audience dance along with us.
(21:54):
I also dance in a glam marching band,and my favorite thing to do there is when we go to like Kids' Day at
the local farmer's market, you know,and we're dancing with the kids.
It's so much fun.
I was wearing, you know, my.
My tall white boots and my mini skirt,and that was all made up and everything.
And I get there and there was aclient who was picnicking with her kids and attending the event, and I
(22:21):
just like had to take a deep breathbecause it was the first time since then, it's happened zillions of times.
Right.
But it was the first time that I was like.
In costume doing this thing that a lotof people would think was kind of silly,
right?
Yeah.
And just like, you know, is shegonna be able to take me seriously when I do this kind of thing?
But I'm also, you know,basically her outsource CFO and her tax accountant, right?
(22:45):
And I walked up and I said, hi.
And she goes, look, kids,it's the dancing accountant.
Awesome.
And it stuck.
Yeah.
And
every year they'll come up on Facebook,there'll be like pictures of that event, and she'll send it to me and
she'll say, Hey, the day I gave youyour, your company name, wasn't it?
(23:06):
Oh, that's Cool's.
Still a client.
All these years later,she's still a client.
Well.
And, uh, you said, uh, youknow, they think it's silly.
Silly's fun, and that goes back to fun.
Yeah, exactly.
It's,
well, and to go back to the pointI was making about the ideal client profile and attracting
yes,
the right kind of client, somebody who'sgonna be a good fit, somebody who thinks that the name, the dancing accountant is.
(23:31):
Stupid.
They're not gonna come to me.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm screening before theyeven, you're pre-screening new
clients.
Nice.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
I was, one time I was at a client, itwas a wine shop, which of course, I'm
a certified sake professional, andI love sake, and I love wine also.
I love beer, I love cocktails.
I'm a drinker, but it's, I wouldsay sake and wine are my favorites.
(23:52):
And so I've had lots of wine clientsthroughout the years and I was at
his shop and one of his reps came inand we were doing a tasting together.
I. And I said, oh, look, at the time,I'm gonna miss my bus if I don't run out.
Now, this is Chicago, right?
Public transit is a very important Yeah.
Piece of the fabric of our daily lives.
(24:12):
So I saw on the bus tracker that itwas coming and I ran out the door.
I found out from that clientlater that the rep went.
Your CPA rides the bus ina really derogatory way.
Wow.
And he was like, yeah.
And I'm really proud to work withher because A, maybe we should be
(24:33):
taking lessons from her on thisbecause financially it makes sense.
Yeah.
But also.
This shows that she like trusts thisneighborhood that she lives in and she feels safe and she feels engaged.
Like that's exactly who Iwant to be working with.
So we're gonna have to talk aboutthis wine shop after, uh, the show.
I may know who you're talking about.
We'll have to see if I do or not.
(24:55):
And then the.
There's this beer shop in Sedona, Arizona.
Jesse Lees became friend with this guythat owns it because Kathy and I, part of our winter trip is Sedona, and we stopped.
I love Sedona, and it's like you, I getin there, I talk to the guy, curious about
what he is doing, exciting, but he also,they're making some interesting sake.
(25:17):
In Arizona.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
True.
And so he gave us one, well, we bought it.
He gives us a nice discount.
But
one of the reasons I loveworking with wine shops.
Yep.
But it was this interesting one andit was like her and something else.
And you know, Kathy and I weretalking to him because, so what do would you use this for?
What?
(25:37):
You just drink it by itself?
He goes, oh, what I do is Imix it two to one with bourbon and it makes it really cool.
Old fashioned.
Oh.
Sake.
I have never tried thatin all of these years.
Now I'm the sake and the wine personin the family and Mark is the beer and the cocktail person in this family.
So now I am going to have to tell him,Hey, it looks like we've got a crossover here with the sake and the cocktail.
(26:01):
There you
go.
Yeah, there you go.
I drink it.
Chilled premium sake.
You should generally drink chilled and
Yes,
on its own.
You know, I don't, certainly don'tuse it as a mixer, but it certainly can be used as a mixer and yeah,
I don't know if you knew this,but sake is actually brewed like.
Beer.
It's not ified like wine,and it's not a distillate.
It's actually a brewed concoction,and the process is very similar to the brewing process for beer.
(26:27):
It technically probably is beer.
'cause it's using grains as a base, right.
So yeah, using rice as a base.
Right.
But
the thing is, is that it doesnot malt from within the grain.
You actually have to add what'scalled koji in order to break the starches down into simple sugars.
Whereas with beer, the grain actually,once it sits there and it's warm
(26:48):
and moist enough, it will sproutits own enzymes to break down.
Got it.
The starches into sugars.
I'm to the Justin.
We'll cut that part out, but
no, never.
It's important.
It's important.
No, this is our new podcast,the Unique Sake Show,
the unique Drinkers, the drinking CPAs.
(27:10):
All right, so now let's get to wherewe wanted to talk about, because I, I mean I saw this, I don't know how early
on, but I saw this right when you wereat least I think, announcing this new community, ask A CPA, which I remember
you doing a really cool presentation onit at the Tax Twitter retreat last year.
Yeah.
So let's get into that.
(27:31):
And we talked about you startingas a bookkeeper and becoming a CPA.
So what was really the inspirationto create this community?
Ask A CPA.
Well, you started outby talking about how.
I really want to bridge the gap.
I mean, the fact that your conference, myfavorite conference is called Bridging the Gap is really like not a surprise at all.
(27:54):
And by the way, I have to brag on myselffor a moment because last year I did win Mentor of the Year, that award
at Bridging the Gap, which was a, anamazing experience for me because it turned out, I found out afterward that.
The big group in the cornerof the room that cheered the loudest when I got that award.
Those are all people whoended up joining Ask A CPA.
(28:17):
Wow.
And yeah, they were theones who nominated me.
It turns out that Melissa MillerFerguson reached out to Dawn Kin, who reached out to Hope Brown, who reached
out to the next person, and the nextperson, and the next person, and they all got together and nominated me.
It was, I didn't.
Know about that until after the fact.
So that was really, it turns out inretrospect, an even bigger moment in my life than I knew as it was happening.
(28:42):
I don't think I mentioned that toyou, so, no, that's pretty cool.
I'm glad I got a chance.
So I really, I would love to bridgethe gap in this longstanding divide that exists between bookkeepers.
And tax practitioners.
I don't think it's a stretch tosay that it does not serve anyone.
Well,
(29:03):
no,
and you know, we talked aboutmy background starting as a bookkeeper and later becoming a CPA.
So I know from personal experience what itfeels like on both sides of that divide.
I also know from personalexperience that it can be.
Addressed in a way thatbenefits both parties.
And ultimately, and this was the point Iwas trying to make at Tax Twitter retreat,
(29:27):
the biggest winner is the small businessclients that we're all trying to care for.
So that's what it came, I. I'veexperienced how differently
a bookkeeper gets treated atconferences by licensed tax pros.
I don't know if differentlyis the perfect word for that.
It's not a great experience.
Hmm.
To be honest, that's one of thereasons that I started ask A CPA.
(29:48):
It is a non-judgmental spacefor bookkeepers to ask a CPA.
Things that they can't necessarilytalk about with their client's Tax pro for whatever reason.
And there are a lot of reasons byteaching them to prepare tax ready books.
This can actually go a long waytoward addressing the pipeline crisis for tax preparers.
(30:09):
You just mentioned pipeline,which is obviously a big issue.
We've been hearing alot about it actually.
You just mentioned thatthis can help solve that.
So this collaboration, you know,better collaboration between
bookkeepers and CPAs, how is thatgonna address or help a pipeline issue?
I think that if we could get this right.
We'd not only make life easier foreveryone involved, we'd actually help
(30:31):
address this massive talent gap that'scausing so much burnout and turnover.
You know, to go back to, you know, someof the tenets that we address at Bridging the Gap Conference, I truly believe that
shifting this mindset could be a hugepart of the solution because it's just
common sense that having bookkeepersand tax pros work throughout the year.
(30:56):
Together.
It just makes tax season take less work.
And as you know, I know you don't dotaxes anymore, but an hour during tax
season is worth like four or five hoursduring the rest of the year, right?
Yep, yep.
So I mean that disconnect betweenbookkeepers and tax pros and
small business owners, it's notjust an inconvenience, Randy.
(31:18):
It's actively costingeveryone time and money.
Sanity and the more work that I do withbookkeepers and ask a CPA, the clearer
that it becomes to me that this isn'tjust a process issue, it's people issue.
Huh.
You know, it's a mindset issue.
(31:38):
It's the classic, but this isthe way it's always been done.
Oh yeah.
Issue.
Oh yeah, we right.
Yep.
We need to teach the art of collaboration.
Not just its mechanics.
We need to like zoom out and we needto look at where each person fits into this larger, constantly rotating cycle.
I want to change this.
(31:59):
It can unquestionably be one ofthe angles that we can come at to address the pipeline crisis.
Well, yeah.
I can see if we have collaboration,obviously that can make everything more efficient.
So why do you think there's,you know, CPAs that maybe have
misconceptions about bookkeepershave misconceptions about CPAs?
(32:20):
I guess were there some commonones and why do they exist?
Why haven't we solved this earlier?
Yeah, I, that's a great question.
I don't know why we haven'tsolved this earlier.
As a matter of fact, when I started aska CPA, not only did bookkeepers start
coming out of the woodwork and saying,oh my God, I've wanted this forever.
(32:40):
I've wanted somebody to go to, right?
Because the tax pros thattheir clients are working with, they're often condescending.
They're often nonresponsive.
And on the other side ofthings, tax pros will often.
Get really frustrated, understandably,when during tax season they're given financial statements that make no
(33:03):
sense whatsoever, but instead of doingsomething about it, right, and this
is
what that tax Twitter retreat and also myworkflow con presentation was all about.
Instead of doing something about it, theywill complain that the bookkeepers don't
know what they're doing and it's not theirjob to teach them, or I don't have time.
To teach them.
Right.
(33:24):
It's time consuming.
I get that it takes energy.
I get that.
It also requires vulnerability.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, vulnerability as a strength.
That's what I spoke on inBridging the Gap last year.
This is a huge area that I think we needto work on personally in our industry.
Probably in most industries,it's so much easier to just.
(33:45):
Avoid this problem and stick withthe way we've always done it.
It is.
Mm-hmm.
And for bookkeepers, that meansI'm just categorizing things.
The way the client says to thetax preparer can deal with this.
Right, right.
Not taking ownership and not learning thesubtleties of what it means to prepare.
Books that are tax ready.
And for tax pros, this means I'mgonna have to do all sorts of
(34:08):
cleanup because the bookkeepersdon't know what they're doing.
Right.
And believe me, at this point,I have heard, I promise, every imaginable scenario from both sides.
Yep.
And I promise you this is avoidable.
This is not an insurmountable problem.
Tax pros who mentor and collaboratewith and encourage bookkeepers,
(34:30):
I. They are saving themselves agiant headache come tax season.
They really are.
There's a lot that you can takeoff of your shoulders, off of your plate and give to the bookkeepers.
Also lifting them up, it increases thelikelihood that they will excel and grow.
(34:51):
When you put people down,you inhibit their growth.
When you lift them up and encouragethem, you give them the opportunity.
To blossom, but this isnot how it's been done.
It's always been.
As a matter of fact, I have afriend who used to work at a firm that did both tax and bookkeeping.
'cause all of the tenants that I'mtalking about here, they're things that happen whether tax and bookkeeping
(35:13):
are done in the same firm, or twodifferent firms, same situation.
So these two departments didn't get alongand they were constantly complaining.
To each other in their owndepartment about the idiots over there in the next department, right?
Like they were both doing, thebookkeepers were complaining about the idiots over the tax department.
Tax people complain about the idiotsover in the bookkeeping department.
(35:33):
So the partners decided this wastheir, you're gonna love this.
This was their approach to move theirdesks into the same space so that they were all mixed up with each other.
So they didn't do anything else.
They didn't set expectations.
They didn't create workflows,they didn't provide education.
They didn't establish regularmeetings or anything, right?
(35:55):
They just moved their desks around so thatthey were intermingled and that was gonna like fix this problem, which turned out to
mean that now they had to walk across theroom to complain about each other with the people who are in their department, right?
Like this solves nothing.
My point is that without creatingsystems and expectations and shared resources, like the things that
(36:20):
actually make collaboration possible,it doesn't matter where you're sitting.
It doesn't matter whetheryou're in the same office.
Everyone needs this.
The first step really is like inunderstanding why you should even bother.
Thank you for joining us for part oneof Randy Crabtree's conversation about
(36:40):
community in the profession with NancyMcClelland, the Dancing Accountant.
Part two will air April 1st.
Be sure to subscribe and go toTheUniqueCPA.com so you don't miss it
or any of our other episodes, and we'llsee you next time on The Unique CPA.
ProfessionalProductions.net
Hello, and welcome to the uniqueCPA with your host Randy Crabtree.
Today we continue our series ofepisodes on the power of community in the accounting profession.
We'll explore how strong connectionslead to healthier, more fulfilled
professionals, and together create asupportive network that enriches everyone.
The unique CPA A is brought to youby Tri-Merit, the specialty tax
(00:23):
professionals.
Today on The Unique CPA, we'rejoined by Nancy McClelland, better known as the Dancing Accountant.
Nancy is an award-winning CPA,educator and founder of “Ask a CPA,” which I'm excited to talk about
today. “Ask a CPA” is a communitydedicated to bridging the gap.
Sound familiar.
Bridging the gap betweenbookkeepers and tax professionals.
(00:45):
Nancy's career is built onrelationships, whether with small
business clients, accountingprofessionals, or the broader community.
I'll vouch to that, but shedidn't start out as a CPA.
We'll talk about that as well.
Her journey from bookkeeping toowning her own firm as a story of
evolution, learning and embracingher unique approach to accounting.
Nancy, welcome to The Unique CPA.
(01:07):
A.
Thank you, Randy, and whata beautiful introduction.
I feel like that might be the nicestintroduction anyone's ever given me.
Uh, well, it's, I, believe me, I had tocut stuff out 'cause I was gonna talk about how much to steal Kristen Keats,
how much joy you bring to accounting,how much fun you have with it.
How, you know, anytime I see you acrossthe room at a conference, my face lights up because it's just the energy you bring.
(01:31):
So, yeah, now I addedthose things as well.
Yeah, yeah.
No kidding.
You just.
You just, uh, you edited them outand then you just put them back in.
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate it, and I'm sohappy to finally be on the show.
Wait, finally, was that, was that
Randy?
Randy?
Didn't this happen sooner?
(01:53):
Well, honestly, we've onlyknown each other about a year.
Well, it's getting, it's,it's less than two years.
Oh, yeah, you're right.
Because I guess we met in personat the first Bridging the Gap.
Yeah, which was August of 23 andwe were recording in March of 25.
So it's not much more than a year anda half, but it feels like I've known you for a long time, which is, is good.
(02:15):
It feels
like I've you for a long time.
Partially because Beer Temple, whichyou're one of the owners of, is one of our favorite bars in Chicago.
It's walking distance from our place.
So in a way, I feel like a deeperconnection with you because we, you know, we have that beautiful thing in common.
Fear.
Yes, we do.
But we haven't gone theretogether, which we tried.
No, you tried.
And I was not able to do it.
(02:35):
So we will make it happenthis year for sure.
We'll make
it happen,
uh, during our birthday month.
Maybe we'll get there in May.
Yeah.
So we both
have our may birthdays.
I'm really looking forward to that.
I'll be back from Mexico.
You'll be back from California?
Yep.
It'll be great.
Yep.
All right.
Let's jump into this becausethere's a lot to talk about today.
Starting with what I talkedabout in the intro a little bit.
Your journey of starting asa bookkeeper to become a CPA.
(02:58):
You want to give us that, that a littlebit of background on that journey.
I.
Absolutely.
I'd be happy.
I have run my own bookkeeping,tax, accounting and advisory firm.
You mentioned it's calledThe Dancing Accountant.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, for almost 24 years now, whichis kind of mind blowing to me.
I started as a bookkeeper and Iworked internally at a few different places, nonprofits and creative.
(03:23):
My undergraduate degree isactually in music education.
I don't know if you knew that, so
I think you told me, but yeah.
That's cool.
Yeah.
So my, my first job as a bookkeeperwas at the Ann Arbor School for the Performing Arts, and I was
teaching music theory part-time andI was the office manager part-time.
And wow, did I realize how much theyneeded a person like me in the office doing the books because creative
(03:50):
folks are amazing, but you know,this was just not their strength and.
That was where I started to realize thatas much as I loved the creative side of things, you know, I mean I was studying
music education, so I wanted to be ateacher, and bookkeeping was something where I felt like I was teaching people,
you know, like when you work with aclient, you have to explain things to them
(04:13):
and the more patient you can be and themore perspectives you can look at it from.
That's all stuff that my,my undergraduate degree.
Music education helped me with.
So from there, you know, once I movedto Chicago, I was working in Hyde Park as a, an accounting supervisor.
And when I left that thought, well,I'll just, I'll just temp for a while.
(04:36):
And that first temp job turnedinto my first client and they.
Did outsourced CFO workwas what they needed.
And I had experience with their accountingsystem, which was Great Plains Dynamics.
And from there it really snowballed.
It absolutely snowballed.
And now 24 years later, youknow, I branched out into tax.
(04:59):
I got my master's once I decidedI wanted to tackle advisory work, and only then did I become a CPA.
Was that the why?
Only then was it?
Was one 50 part of,
not at all.
Were you under?
Uh, well, I think the one 50 rule wasin place when I became a CPA, but I
actually am not a hundred percent surebecause it wasn't an issue for me.
(05:23):
Right.
I, I mean, this was my master's degree.
I was getting a master's degree inaccounting and financial management because my undergraduate degree
had been in music education, and Iwanted to get a degree, not because
my clients cared, I wanted to becomea CPA, not because my clients cared.
The type of work didn't reallychange, but kind of my ability to.
(05:43):
Look at the numbers and figureout how they were telling a story.
That was something I really wantedto figure out for my clients, and
so I was getting my master's justbecause I'm interested in this stuff.
I love tax.
I love accounting.
I love bookkeeping.
I love helping small businesses, andI think this is the biggest impact that we can make, is by being an
(06:05):
accountant, being in a professionthat helps them do what they do.
To increase the vitality ofcommunities that they live in.
And we have a very niche practicein terms of our geography.
We have a really, a micro niche,I guess you would call it.
We're hyper-local.
It's just our neighborhood of LoganSquare in Chicago, and every once in a
(06:30):
while I'll accept a client from outsideof our neighborhood, but even that.
You know, we have our ideal client profileand we really like to stick with it.
So these are the places wherewe eat and drink, and these are the stores where we shop.
These are the people we call forprofessional services, right?
These are very much the peoplein our community and we're really proud of serving them.
(06:53):
Huh.
So the only thing I'm disappointedthere is niche, not niche, but that's,
do you and Kelly Parks havea disagreement on that one?
It sounds like
we do.
Is that the only thingthat you guys disagree on?
Is that like your big, is thatpreventing you from really?
Becoming besties.
Uh,
I think she drinks Coors Light.
(07:14):
That might be the only other thing.
So
bless your heart, Kelly.
I don't think I can agree withyou on that one either, but
yes, but that's, other than that,I'm feeling after 220 episodes or
wherever we're at now of the podcastthat I'm in the minority with niche.
With niche and niche.
I'm finding out that,
yeah, I dunno, I think I go back and forthdepending on, depending on the sentence.
(07:38):
It might be equal opportunity on that one.
I haven't decided yet.
All right.
Well that, that's cool.
Another thing that, that came out ofthat discussion is 24 years in business.
I've never done anything for 24years, so, well, other than me married to Kathy and my wife.
We're at 38 years now, so Wow.
Congratulations.
That's beautiful.
(07:58):
Yep.
And, but yeah, 24 years.
I was just then that, the onlyreason I thought that is 'cause this
morning, no, yesterday morning Iwas thinking, I think Trier's now.
The longest business thatI've stayed in involved with.
Uh, and
how long, how long is that?
We're 18 years.
18. We're just shortof 18 years right now.
My accounting firm was.
(08:19):
15 years, but if I count thepart-time that I was doing on the
side before I went full blast, thatwould've been 18 years probably.
So I think we probably just passed it now.
I, uh, I don't know whythis is about me now.
Let's get back to you.
It's not, it's wonderful.
I'm so excited to hear thatbecause it makes me feel.
(08:41):
Like 24 is, I mean, that,that is an big deal.
Accomplishment.
It's a big deal.
We, you know, we had the most wonderfulparty since I, I mentioned that we have this hyperlocal firm, right?
Yep.
For our 21st anniversary.
It was supposed to be20th, but pandemic, right?
So we did a 21st anniversaryand we build it as.
Finally, our firm is old enoughto drink and it was wonderful.
(09:04):
We threw a huge party in the communitythat was open to the community.
The Logan Square Chamber of Commerce isone of our clients and they co-hosted it with us, and we had it at the Park
Solidarity Park, which is right outsidethe doors of the Chamber of Commerce.
A client of mine that's a bandWilder and the free for alls they.
Performed and clients donated differentthings for our little goodie bags.
(09:27):
And it was a huge, beautiful blowoutrevolution, donated the beer and
uh, I mean, it was like just suchan amazing community experience.
And so that was a very special moment inmy life where I was like, wow, we have been making a difference for a long time.
I mean, Logan Square, you know, itgets voted coolest neighborhood, not only in Chicago, but in the country.
(09:50):
On a regular basis and like we're partof, we're part of making that happen.
Like helping keep these clients healthy.
Yeah, well they have a dancing accountant,so obviously that makes it cool.
So, you know, that was
actually a client thatgave me that name, Randy.
I didn't come up with that.
We're gonna have to getinto that in a second.
But before we do a couplethings, you just keep making me think about different things.
But a Revolution Brewery, which isa Chicago based brewery, a friend of mine is their CFO, but he's CFO
(10:17):
slash and I think he's, his titleis CMO as well, head of marketing.
So he's like got this
Marketing and finance.
Yes, exactly.
He's kinda like you.
Very creative.
But then also I've got the,uh, you know, the numerical numbers side of things, and he's.
Oh, I don't know.
I haven't looked in him a while,but he's, I think he's got a lot of followers on Instagram where he dos
(10:39):
these really cool, like just videosand stuff about beer and whatnot.
But he was on the podcastwas the whole point.
You know, a couple years ago,Doug Vi Lucky, oh, I missed, was on the podcast, so, yeah.
Oh, that's so
cool.
Well, you know, so what happenedthere is that Josh Deeth was who?
Is the head of Revolution Brewing?
Yeah.
He actually was the first directorof the Logan Square Chamber of
(11:02):
Commerce when it branched off andbecame its own Chamber of Commerce.
Oh, wow.
And his wife is a bookkeeper, and sohe, as he would say, knew enough to be
dangerous and he would keep the booksfor the Logan Square Chamber of Commerce.
And then when he left.
And was passing the torch to thenext executive director, Josh reached out to me and said, Hey, this person
(11:24):
who's coming in doesn't have asmuch experience with bookkeeping.
Would you be willing to help us out?
And that is how westarted working together.
Wow, that's pretty cool.
All right, so we'll get away fromhyperlocal now on, you and I can talk about you don't want to niche anymore.
Niche or niche.
No, that's fine.
I love it.
But because it's really, tome, that's, I, you know what?
Let's not go away from that.
(11:45):
'cause I love that a lot.
'cause I like niche practices.
But I never, one of the niches that, andI know we've talked about this before,
but I never really thought about thatdeep, having a niche of just a community.
Yeah.
Which
is what it is.
And that's actually pretty cool.
Did you start out that way or did it justlike, I just don't want to leave home?
I mean, how did the,
(12:08):
well, it was very organic.
As you may have noticed, I ampretty outgoing and gregarious.
Yes.
You and
I have a few things in common.
We're both talkers and we're both reallypassionate about what we do, and so I
would just be out there in the communityduring a period of time, you know?
When Logan Square was experiencingvery organic growth, and you know,
(12:34):
I would get really excited everytime a new restaurant would open.
I would get really excited when anew shop would open and I would go in
because I'm a resident of that communityand I'm invested in that community.
So I would stop in andI would check them out.
I believe very strongly inshopping small and buying local.
That is definitely one of the.
(12:56):
Key things in our mission.
Also, one of the reasons that wehave chosen not to offshore is
that we really, personally believethat's just one of our values.
And so I would go in places and wewould start chatting and I would say, oh, when did you start your business?
And I would tell I'm the worst personin the world at sales and marketing.
(13:18):
Intentionally.
I am pretty awesome at it unintentionally.
Yeah, because I just talk and I listenand I'm curious, you know, and so we would be chatting and I would ask about
their struggles and challenges, and almostinvariably it would come up that, you
know, they didn't know what they weredoing with their books or their taxes.
(13:38):
And I'd be like, oh, that'skind of a cool coincidence.
Here's my card.
And the next thing you know,you know, we had accidentally built a hyper-local practice.
But one of the things that'sreally interesting about that is that our firm is fully remote.
You know, we've never had a brickand mortar location because all of my team members, you know, initially
they were in Chicago, but as youknow, they wanted to move to different places, Atlanta and New York.
(14:03):
And it seemed like a shame to lose them.
There was this cool thing calledZoom, and so I was like, I guess we don't really need to lose you.
So we became a remote firm because wewanted to hang on to our people and I
was the only one who met with clientsanyway, and I was meeting with them.
I. At, like, cafe Mustache is one of myfavorite cafes and bars as somebody who likes to go out in the neighborhood.
(14:27):
And so it kind of became my office.
Either there or Reno.
I'd meet people there or I'd meet themat their businesses and yeah, so it,
it was extremely organic at this point,you know, it's, it's very intentional.
We rarely take on new clients, and whenwe do, they have to meet everything.
That we have set out inour ideal client profile.
And one of those things is that theyneed to be geographically, you know, located in or around our neighborhood.
(14:53):
And also they have to bemission based themselves.
So we work with a lot ofmental health professionals.
We work with, you know, all sorts oforganizations that are doing great things for nonprofits, et cetera.
That's, uh, I really like that story.
I could listen to that.
IJ we can go another hour just hearingabout this whole, we better not the
way you set up I'd, we won't to becauseI wanted to go to something else.
(15:17):
But before we do that, I justhave to tell you a story.
I. And when you were talking thereand telling us this whole, you know how you got new business and it was
curiosity, really there is beingpassion for what was going on in the
community, these new businesses comingin, and curiosity, that's something
that you talk about alot at Bridging the Gap.
Curiosity that is, you know,curiosity I also think is one of the pillars of mental health.
(15:39):
Yep.
And a sustainable practice.
Oh, for sure.
I, I got, you know what?
I need to build curiosity more into whatI say because I think that's important.
But, so Kathy and I, youmentioned, we were in California.
We just spent 27 hours drivingback or 30 hours from California.
We just got back and one ofthe books we listened to on the drive was called A Funny Story.
(16:01):
I dunno if you ever heard of the book.
No I haven't.
Great book.
Oh, I can't wait.
But in there, the main character, andI always forget character's names,
but I'm pretty sure his name was Milesor one of the two main characters.
Miles.
Now I'm gonna give a book review,
basically really good
talk for hours.
Yes, it would be the best way Icould think of to spend the day.
(16:25):
Just is one of these personalities thatis like you people, like one of the
characters would say to him, I just don'tunderstand how, why everybody loves you.
'cause you're curious, you askquestions, you want to know, you want
to hear what's happening and just behaving that curiosity with school.
And so I can see, I can just picture youbuilding your business, being in this new cafe that is like, this is amazing.
(16:47):
Uh, how did you start this?
What's going on?
What's your goals?
Yeah.
What.
And that just paying off.
So I love that as a businessdevelopment technique, even though that's not what it is.
Right.
I mean, I think that's one of thethings that, that made it so special is that it truly was inadvertent.
Yes.
Now knowing 24 yearslater, knowing what I know.
(17:08):
Yeah.
It is a piece of advice I give toeverybody everywhere, you know?
Yeah.
I think you and I are both hugefans of John Garrett, and I'm always
bragging about the fact that I wasthe first guest on his podcast,
What's Your And?
And that's something that he talks aboutin terms of the people that you work with.
Be curious about them, ask them questions.
But I would argue that youcan take that so much further.
(17:31):
It's not just the peoplethat you work with.
It's, you know, havecuriosity about your own.
Client base.
Yep.
Have curiosity abouthuman beings in general.
And you know, I really believe everybody'slike, oh, AI is gonna take our jobs away.
And I'm like, bring it on.
I want AI to take careof all the drudgery.
Yep.
I want them to leave thepersonal relationships.
(17:53):
To me, that's something that Iexcel at because I actually care.
What was it you were saying the other day?
I was saying, oh,
oh,
how amazing you are.
You know, thank you for being sosupportive and you, you said, well,
all you have to do is be nice
and
fun.
Fun and
fun.
Well, we added the fun laterbecause you asked, I had to apologize for not getting well.
(18:18):
Stuff done for our conference.
So it was really apologizing tomyself but apologizing to you that I hadn't sent some information.
'cause you're helping us with theconference and I, and my excuse was, I was just having too much fun 'cause family
was visiting us in California, so we,but you came up with this name, right?
You and I have to start ourown podcast and we'll call it the Nice and Fun podcast.
So the
nice and fun podcast.
(18:39):
Absolutely.
If I could give anybody one pieceof advice about building a client.
Space.
Just be nice
and fun and have fun.
Be nice and have fun.
All right?
Yeah.
All right, well, we can havebe nice and have fun all day.
We'll stick to the nice,we'll stick to the fun.
But let's get to the regularly scheduledprogram, which was really talking
(19:00):
about, and I'm not even gonna getthere yet, the ask a CPA community.
Because before we do that.
You know, we have to talkabout the Dancing Accountant and where this came from.
Was the, was your business calledthe Dancing Accountant from day one, or did this evolve into that?
Absolutely not.
Okay.
No, I had the world's most creativename you could possibly imagine.
(19:20):
For my company.
It was called Nancy McClelland.
LLC.
Yep.
Well, you may have been the most uniqueone and the only one that existed, so.
That is possible.
Yeah, so it was called NancyMcClelland, LLC, and I wanted to
rename it because I was just like, youknow, this doesn't reflect who I am.
It's my name, but what does it say, right?
(19:43):
And who's it going to attract?
Because another piece of advicethat I give to people when they are.
Building their accounting andbookkeeping firm is that you should be auditioning these clients as
much, these potential clients as muchas they're auditioning you, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Like you, you want to make sure thatit is a good fit from both sides and.
(20:05):
I don't want to work with peoplewho are boring or who think that
I am unprofessional because I,you know, wear colorful clothing.
And because I speak my mind, you know, Imean, I, I, I want to work with people who
are engaging and interesting and vibrantand nice and fun, as you were saying.
(20:27):
So I really wanted to change myname so that I would attract.
That kind of clientele.
And so I just kept thinking about,well, you know, we're a geographically hyperlocal firm, so maybe I'll call
it Blue Line Accounting becausemm-hmm we, I know what that means.
You know what that means.
Chicago Blue Line, I'mon the Logan Square stop.
And I was like, well, I don't reallytake the blue line that often to clients
(20:51):
because I can just walk there or ridemy bike there, so that doesn't work.
And I came up with a bunch of otherideas and nothing was really sticking.
And one day I, well, I'm a dancer.
I am a 1960s style Go-go dancer.
So think tall white boots, Nancy Sinatra.
These boots are made for walk-in.
(21:11):
So one day I was going to a little, itwas sort of a performance, it was this neat thing that we do at a pro bono
client of mine is Unity Park, which isin our neighborhood, not surprisingly.
Yeah.
And they have a greatprogram for the year.
Like they're.
Advisory Council is just really active increating a dynamic, engaging, you know,
(21:32):
whole series of entertainment and stufffor the families in the neighborhood.
And they had a thing where it wasa go go troupe that was teaching
little kids how to go go dance and,which is my very favorite part.
I also dance in Fabulous Ladiesof Fitness, which is a fake 80s
Jazzercise troop where we havethe audience dance along with us.
(21:54):
I also dance in a glam marching band,and my favorite thing to do there is when we go to like Kids' Day at
the local farmer's market, you know,and we're dancing with the kids.
It's so much fun.
I was wearing, you know, my.
My tall white boots and my mini skirt,and that was all made up and everything.
And I get there and there was aclient who was picnicking with her kids and attending the event, and I
(22:21):
just like had to take a deep breathbecause it was the first time since then, it's happened zillions of times.
Right.
But it was the first time that I was like.
In costume doing this thing that a lotof people would think was kind of silly,
right?
Yeah.
And just like, you know, is shegonna be able to take me seriously when I do this kind of thing?
But I'm also, you know,basically her outsource CFO and her tax accountant, right?
(22:45):
And I walked up and I said, hi.
And she goes, look, kids,it's the dancing accountant.
Awesome.
And it stuck.
Yeah.
And
every year they'll come up on Facebook,there'll be like pictures of that event, and she'll send it to me and
she'll say, Hey, the day I gave youyour, your company name, wasn't it?
(23:06):
Oh, that's Cool's.
Still a client.
All these years later,she's still a client.
Well.
And, uh, you said, uh, youknow, they think it's silly.
Silly's fun, and that goes back to fun.
Yeah, exactly.
It's,
well, and to go back to the pointI was making about the ideal client profile and attracting
yes,
the right kind of client, somebody who'sgonna be a good fit, somebody who thinks that the name, the dancing accountant is.
(23:31):
Stupid.
They're not gonna come to me.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm screening before theyeven, you're pre-screening new
clients.
Nice.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
I was, one time I was at a client, itwas a wine shop, which of course, I'm
a certified sake professional, andI love sake, and I love wine also.
I love beer, I love cocktails.
I'm a drinker, but it's, I wouldsay sake and wine are my favorites.
(23:52):
And so I've had lots of wine clientsthroughout the years and I was at
his shop and one of his reps came inand we were doing a tasting together.
I. And I said, oh, look, at the time,I'm gonna miss my bus if I don't run out.
Now, this is Chicago, right?
Public transit is a very important Yeah.
Piece of the fabric of our daily lives.
(24:12):
So I saw on the bus tracker that itwas coming and I ran out the door.
I found out from that clientlater that the rep went.
Your CPA rides the bus ina really derogatory way.
Wow.
And he was like, yeah.
And I'm really proud to work withher because A, maybe we should be
(24:33):
taking lessons from her on thisbecause financially it makes sense.
Yeah.
But also.
This shows that she like trusts thisneighborhood that she lives in and she feels safe and she feels engaged.
Like that's exactly who Iwant to be working with.
So we're gonna have to talk aboutthis wine shop after, uh, the show.
I may know who you're talking about.
We'll have to see if I do or not.
(24:55):
And then the.
There's this beer shop in Sedona, Arizona.
Jesse Lees became friend with this guythat owns it because Kathy and I, part of our winter trip is Sedona, and we stopped.
I love Sedona, and it's like you, I getin there, I talk to the guy, curious about
what he is doing, exciting, but he also,they're making some interesting sake.
(25:17):
In Arizona.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
True.
And so he gave us one, well, we bought it.
He gives us a nice discount.
But
one of the reasons I loveworking with wine shops.
Yep.
But it was this interesting one andit was like her and something else.
And you know, Kathy and I weretalking to him because, so what do would you use this for?
What?
(25:37):
You just drink it by itself?
He goes, oh, what I do is Imix it two to one with bourbon and it makes it really cool.
Old fashioned.
Oh.
Sake.
I have never tried thatin all of these years.
Now I'm the sake and the wine personin the family and Mark is the beer and the cocktail person in this family.
So now I am going to have to tell him,Hey, it looks like we've got a crossover here with the sake and the cocktail.
(26:01):
There you
go.
Yeah, there you go.
I drink it.
Chilled premium sake.
You should generally drink chilled and
Yes,
on its own.
You know, I don't, certainly don'tuse it as a mixer, but it certainly can be used as a mixer and yeah,
I don't know if you knew this,but sake is actually brewed like.
Beer.
It's not ified like wine,and it's not a distillate.
It's actually a brewed concoction,and the process is very similar to the brewing process for beer.
(26:27):
It technically probably is beer.
'cause it's using grains as a base, right.
So yeah, using rice as a base.
Right.
But
the thing is, is that it doesnot malt from within the grain.
You actually have to add what'scalled koji in order to break the starches down into simple sugars.
Whereas with beer, the grain actually,once it sits there and it's warm
(26:48):
and moist enough, it will sproutits own enzymes to break down.
Got it.
The starches into sugars.
I'm to the Justin.
We'll cut that part out, but
no, never.
It's important.
It's important.
No, this is our new podcast,the Unique Sake Show,
the unique Drinkers, the drinking CPAs.
(27:10):
All right, so now let's get to wherewe wanted to talk about, because I, I mean I saw this, I don't know how early
on, but I saw this right when you wereat least I think, announcing this new community, ask A CPA, which I remember
you doing a really cool presentation onit at the Tax Twitter retreat last year.
Yeah.
So let's get into that.
(27:31):
And we talked about you startingas a bookkeeper and becoming a CPA.
So what was really the inspirationto create this community?
Ask A CPA.
Well, you started outby talking about how.
I really want to bridge the gap.
I mean, the fact that your conference, myfavorite conference is called Bridging the Gap is really like not a surprise at all.
(27:54):
And by the way, I have to brag on myselffor a moment because last year I did win Mentor of the Year, that award
at Bridging the Gap, which was a, anamazing experience for me because it turned out, I found out afterward that.
The big group in the cornerof the room that cheered the loudest when I got that award.
Those are all people whoended up joining Ask A CPA.
(28:17):
Wow.
And yeah, they were theones who nominated me.
It turns out that Melissa MillerFerguson reached out to Dawn Kin, who reached out to Hope Brown, who reached
out to the next person, and the nextperson, and the next person, and they all got together and nominated me.
It was, I didn't.
Know about that until after the fact.
So that was really, it turns out inretrospect, an even bigger moment in my life than I knew as it was happening.
(28:42):
I don't think I mentioned that toyou, so, no, that's pretty cool.
I'm glad I got a chance.
So I really, I would love to bridgethe gap in this longstanding divide that exists between bookkeepers.
And tax practitioners.
I don't think it's a stretch tosay that it does not serve anyone.
Well,
(29:03):
no,
and you know, we talked aboutmy background starting as a bookkeeper and later becoming a CPA.
So I know from personal experience what itfeels like on both sides of that divide.
I also know from personalexperience that it can be.
Addressed in a way thatbenefits both parties.
And ultimately, and this was the point Iwas trying to make at Tax Twitter retreat,
(29:27):
the biggest winner is the small businessclients that we're all trying to care for.
So that's what it came, I. I'veexperienced how differently
a bookkeeper gets treated atconferences by licensed tax pros.
I don't know if differentlyis the perfect word for that.
It's not a great experience.
Hmm.
To be honest, that's one of thereasons that I started ask A CPA.
(29:48):
It is a non-judgmental spacefor bookkeepers to ask a CPA.
Things that they can't necessarilytalk about with their client's Tax pro for whatever reason.
And there are a lot of reasons byteaching them to prepare tax ready books.
This can actually go a long waytoward addressing the pipeline crisis for tax preparers.
(30:09):
You just mentioned pipeline,which is obviously a big issue.
We've been hearing alot about it actually.
You just mentioned thatthis can help solve that.
So this collaboration, you know,better collaboration between
bookkeepers and CPAs, how is thatgonna address or help a pipeline issue?
I think that if we could get this right.
We'd not only make life easier foreveryone involved, we'd actually help
(30:31):
address this massive talent gap that'scausing so much burnout and turnover.
You know, to go back to, you know, someof the tenets that we address at Bridging the Gap Conference, I truly believe that
shifting this mindset could be a hugepart of the solution because it's just
common sense that having bookkeepersand tax pros work throughout the year.
(30:56):
Together.
It just makes tax season take less work.
And as you know, I know you don't dotaxes anymore, but an hour during tax
season is worth like four or five hoursduring the rest of the year, right?
Yep, yep.
So I mean that disconnect betweenbookkeepers and tax pros and
small business owners, it's notjust an inconvenience, Randy.
(31:18):
It's actively costingeveryone time and money.
Sanity and the more work that I do withbookkeepers and ask a CPA, the clearer
that it becomes to me that this isn'tjust a process issue, it's people issue.
Huh.
You know, it's a mindset issue.
(31:38):
It's the classic, but this isthe way it's always been done.
Oh yeah.
Issue.
Oh yeah, we right.
Yep.
We need to teach the art of collaboration.
Not just its mechanics.
We need to like zoom out and we needto look at where each person fits into this larger, constantly rotating cycle.
I want to change this.
(31:59):
It can unquestionably be one ofthe angles that we can come at to address the pipeline crisis.
Well, yeah.
I can see if we have collaboration,obviously that can make everything more efficient.
So why do you think there's,you know, CPAs that maybe have
misconceptions about bookkeepershave misconceptions about CPAs?
(32:20):
I guess were there some commonones and why do they exist?
Why haven't we solved this earlier?
Yeah, I, that's a great question.
I don't know why we haven'tsolved this earlier.
As a matter of fact, when I started aska CPA, not only did bookkeepers start
coming out of the woodwork and saying,oh my God, I've wanted this forever.
(32:40):
I've wanted somebody to go to, right?
Because the tax pros thattheir clients are working with, they're often condescending.
They're often nonresponsive.
And on the other side ofthings, tax pros will often.
Get really frustrated, understandably,when during tax season they're given financial statements that make no
(33:03):
sense whatsoever, but instead of doingsomething about it, right, and this
is
what that tax Twitter retreat and also myworkflow con presentation was all about.
Instead of doing something about it, theywill complain that the bookkeepers don't
know what they're doing and it's not theirjob to teach them, or I don't have time.
To teach them.
Right.
(33:24):
It's time consuming.
I get that it takes energy.
I get that.
It also requires vulnerability.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, vulnerability as a strength.
That's what I spoke on inBridging the Gap last year.
This is a huge area that I think we needto work on personally in our industry.
Probably in most industries,it's so much easier to just.
(33:45):
Avoid this problem and stick withthe way we've always done it.
It is.
Mm-hmm.
And for bookkeepers, that meansI'm just categorizing things.
The way the client says to thetax preparer can deal with this.
Right, right.
Not taking ownership and not learning thesubtleties of what it means to prepare.
Books that are tax ready.
And for tax pros, this means I'mgonna have to do all sorts of
(34:08):
cleanup because the bookkeepersdon't know what they're doing.
Right.
And believe me, at this point,I have heard, I promise, every imaginable scenario from both sides.
Yep.
And I promise you this is avoidable.
This is not an insurmountable problem.
Tax pros who mentor and collaboratewith and encourage bookkeepers,
(34:30):
I. They are saving themselves agiant headache come tax season.
They really are.
There's a lot that you can takeoff of your shoulders, off of your plate and give to the bookkeepers.
Also lifting them up, it increases thelikelihood that they will excel and grow.
(34:51):
When you put people down,you inhibit their growth.
When you lift them up and encouragethem, you give them the opportunity.
To blossom, but this isnot how it's been done.
It's always been.
As a matter of fact, I have afriend who used to work at a firm that did both tax and bookkeeping.
'cause all of the tenants that I'mtalking about here, they're things that happen whether tax and bookkeeping
(35:13):
are done in the same firm, or twodifferent firms, same situation.
So these two departments didn't get alongand they were constantly complaining.
To each other in their owndepartment about the idiots over there in the next department, right?
Like they were both doing, thebookkeepers were complaining about the idiots over the tax department.
Tax people complain about the idiotsover in the bookkeeping department.
(35:33):
So the partners decided this wastheir, you're gonna love this.
This was their approach to move theirdesks into the same space so that they were all mixed up with each other.
So they didn't do anything else.
They didn't set expectations.
They didn't create workflows,they didn't provide education.
They didn't establish regularmeetings or anything, right?
(35:55):
They just moved their desks around so thatthey were intermingled and that was gonna like fix this problem, which turned out to
mean that now they had to walk across theroom to complain about each other with the people who are in their department, right?
Like this solves nothing.
My point is that without creatingsystems and expectations and shared resources, like the things that
(36:20):
actually make collaboration possible,it doesn't matter where you're sitting.
It doesn't matter whetheryou're in the same office.
Everyone needs this.
The first step really is like inunderstanding why you should even bother.
Thank you for joining us for part oneof Randy Crabtree's conversation about
(36:40):
community in the profession with NancyMcClelland, the Dancing Accountant.
Part two will air April 1st.
Be sure to subscribe and go toTheUniqueCPA.com so you don't miss it
or any of our other episodes, and we'llsee you next time on The Unique CPA.
ProfessionalProductions.net
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.