April 8, 2025 • 36 mins
Randy Crabtree is joined by Annette Wehrli of Effectivity Consulting on Episode 206 of The Unique CPA to talk about aligning business strategy with people strategy. They discuss the significant challenge many accounting firms face: transitioning professionals from technical experts to effective leaders, the importance of identifying the right leadership types and styles, and the need for a balance of technical, visionary, thought, and people leadership within firms. Annette highlights storytelling, culture, and customized leadership training programs as ways to enhance individuals’ innate leadership potential, seeing it as a path forward for the profession and aiding in its continued positive transformation as it addresses its talent attraction and retention challenges.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello, and welcome to The UniqueCPA with your host, Randy Crabtree.
We are committed to creating a thrivingcommunity of accounting professionals
who are physically and mentally healthy,fulfilled, and energized by their work.
Our ultimate goal is to elevatethe reputation of the accounting
profession and vastly improvedthe lives of those in it.
The Unique CPA is broughtto you by Tri-Merit, the specialty tax professionals.
(00:24):
Today on The Unique CPA, we'retalking about something that many accounting firms struggle with, and
that is the transition from technicalexpert to effective people leader.
Our guest today, Annette Wehrli, is anexpert in helping business owners and leaders align their business strategy
with their people strategy, whichobviously is a very passionate topic.
I like talking about creatinga high performing team and a healthy results driven culture.
(00:50):
Today, we'll kind of see wherethis conversation goes, but I think we'll delve into talking about what
makes a great leader and differentleadership styles even, and how
even firms maybe can build strongleadership bench for long-term success.
Annette, welcome to The Unique CPA
A. Thanks for having me, Randy.
I'm glad to be here.
Not putting too my pressure with so manythings there that I mentioned on there, but we'll see where we get to today.
(01:13):
It's always just a conversation.
But why don't you give us a littlebit more like your firm name, your
company name what you're doing,and don't you do an intro yourself.
Sure, thank you.
So I cut my teeth in one of thebig consulting firms and then spent the majority of my career really as
a consultant and a coach to smallbusiness owners and leaders in the service industry, sales industry, and
(01:38):
did some training in there as welland, and a whole myriad of things.
But it's really around coachingand helping leaders get better on the people side of their business.
And this is my passion.
So yeah, you created a long listfor us to cover today, but I'll say that really is my passion.
It's what gets me out of bed every day.
(01:59):
So I'm excited to talk about it today.
Well, me too actually.
You and I talked a few weeks ago andI came out of that conversation with
some new knowledge that I've actuallybeen sharing with others as well.
In fact, it was, we talked about on a,uh, episode that we recorded earlier today, I. Where you and I talked
about leadership and how I, uh, didn'tsee myself as a leader and, and you, uh, corrected me I guess on that.
(02:27):
So
yeah.
But it was interestingconversation, so I appreciate that.
Let's talk into, because I think thisis an issue in public accounting.
We have a lot of issuesin public accounting.
Public account is a greatprofession and it, it is amazing.
We have a perception issue in theprofession and actually a little reality issue too with what we really are.
But one of the things I thinkwe struggle with is we build.
(02:52):
Create a reward technicalexpertise, which is fine.
We are very technical profession, butthen as people come up, you know, they have this technical knowledge and that's
what we see as most important, but wedon't spend a lot of time cultivating the leadership skills that they need.
I don't know if you've seen this.
(03:13):
But how would you suggest we address this?
Going from a technical expertto a people leader or whatever the steps are in between there?
Yeah, that's such an importantdistinction, and I don't think accounting is the only industry.
Well, I know accounting is not theonly industry to fall into that trap.
I come from service and sales backgroundsand companies, and the sales industry is notorious for taking a high performer.
(03:43):
Yep.
Who knows how to sell and close a dealand negotiate and fill in the blank.
All those ING words that we need todo, and we say, gosh, John is such
a phenomenal salesman, or closer orwhatever, we should make him a team lead.
And you know how that goes.
(04:03):
Oh yeah.
We did that ourselves actually.
Yeah.
Yep.
So I've seen it and I know it'snot always the right decision.
So, yep, go ahead.
So like you said, we rewardbased on technical skill.
No matter what you're doing, what industryyou're in, you're good at a widget maker.
And so.
We say that you should moveup and and manage people.
(04:24):
And an accountant, a widget makeror a salesperson, may be phenomenal
at what they do and both, andthey're not good at managing people.
They're not good at leading people,and they have no desire for that.
And so you just asked, you know,what, how do we remedy this?
(04:44):
I really think we have to take astep back and as leaders really force ourselves to say, wait a minute, what
is it that we're looking for in the roleand what does the business need this?
You talked about me helping peoplealign the business strategy with the people strategy, and it's saying,
I know we need a team leader or amanager, or whatever the role is, but what kind of person do we need?
(05:11):
How does that align with our values?
What are we trying to accomplishfrom a business standpoint, from
a people standpoint, and is thisthe right person for that role?
Do they have those competencies?
Do they have that heart for people, etc.?
And I think that's by askingourselves those reflective questions on the front end.
(05:34):
Now we have a rubric, if youwill, to consider people that would be candidates for that.
Promotion or that, that opportunitywithin the firm, that's a starting place.
Yep.
And when we're looking at that,'cause this is one thing I I'm very
passionate about too, is that allowingpeople to delve into their strengths.
(05:54):
And so if people don't have aleadership strength, is this something that you suggest we work on?
Is this something that I not even suggest?
Is this something you see there'sopportunities for people to strengthen these leadership areas or, you know, we
have, and this is something maybe we couldtalk about, there's different leadership.
Styles or personalities or whatever, dowe need to identify where their leadership style is and then see if there's a way to
(06:22):
try to enhance that even further throughsome kind of education or programs.
What do you see whenyou're bringing up leaders?
Do you, is there just a, Hey, cookiecutter, this is what we're doing and this is how you have to become a leader?
Or how do you see the bestway to develop leaders are.
Yeah, I don't thinkthere's a cookie cutter.
There is no conveyor belt thatwe can put people on a system, I believe wholeheartedly in training.
(06:44):
I've led those kind of programs.
I've built leadership developmentprograms over multi months and years,
so I absolutely believe in coaching andtraining to skill sets and competencies.
And you can go to places like Gallup orKorn Ferry, or the big consulting firms, or the Center for Creative Leadership.
We know what many of thecompetencies of leadership are.
(07:07):
So sure.
A lot of curricula for leadershipdevelopment include communication, empathy, listening, decision
making, handling stress, youknow, all of those components.
But I don't believe that there's a cookiecutter way to lead because one of the things that you and I talked about.
A couple of weeks ago was thataccounting and numbers are predictable and they do what you tell them to do.
(07:35):
Mm-hmm.
Humans do not.
And so to say that there's oneway to lead, or this is the only thing it is, it's just absurd.
So it's very human, it's very, it, evenculture based, it can be company based,
but sure there are some mile markersand some milestones that we look for.
(07:55):
When we are developing andcoaching, it can be anything from going to classes and courses.
It can be certain leadership events,it can be mentoring, it can be coaching a, a, a wide variety of options.
But it starts with us saying, what isit that we really are looking for from a leadership standpoint, from this person?
(08:18):
What kind of firm are we?
What kind of culture are we tryingto create and what competencies are needed for that in addition
to having subject knowledge of allof the accounting principles that
are really important to be able tomanage the specifics of day-to-day?
I.
So in, in that then, so we're identifyingsomebody, we want this person, we see opportunity for them to lead.
(08:42):
Is it, 'cause you mentioned a few thingswith Gallup and Korn Ferry and the CL. You know, I think you and I, when we
talked last time, something that wedid as a organization was the cliff
and strengths finders, which was veryimpactful thing for me just to see that.
And then you see peoplehave different skill sets.
You know in there, they broke us oninto four different areas, and I know nothing about developing leaders in
(09:07):
that you're the expert here, but does itmake sense to do some kind of, I assume that's what Gallup or Korn Ferry might
do, is go identify the strengths or theleadership style that this individual
has, and then when we are doing training,that's how we're gonna lean into it.
Yeah, there are a myriad of assessmentsthat you can look at, I mean, more than you would possibly need.
(09:28):
Assessment is a very importantcomponent and there's a lot of difference in assessments.
So some of them are leadershipstyle, some of them are, I. Social
preferences like the disc, whatkind of personality are you?
That's not leadership.
That's your personality.
How do you work in the world?
And then there are veryspecific leadership assessments.
(09:50):
There's 360 degree surveysthat you can do where you get manager, peer and direct reports.
I mean.
That's an exhaustive list for sure.
Assessments are a great place tostart in understanding the person that you're bringing in on a holistic
level, and then from there you look at,all right, let's talk about what are your passions, your heart for people?
(10:14):
What do you wanna do with your career?
Do you want the pressure of beinga partner in an accounting firm?
Do you want to be a manager?
Do you really wanna be an individualcontributor who just really loves to do great diagnostic work with clients?
And all of that is okay?
It's just making sure thatwe're doing a deep dive into.
(10:36):
A wide variety of asking ourselvesabout the person and what the business
needs and making sure that that alignsas opposed to, Hey, Steve got promoted.
We need to move someone into that spotreal quick because tax season is coming.
So let's move Jane into that role.
Real quick so that we can have someonein the seat, which is what most of us do, because time is money, right?
(11:03):
Well, yeah, too often time is money.
And I think the accounting profession,'cause we value ourselves on time rather than on the value we're delivering.
But that's another story probably it is.
It's, uh, for a later time.
So let's talk about then, if we'redoing an assessment and we're finding out what are, you know.
Types of leaders, I guess.
Mm-hmm.
(11:23):
There are, you know, categorieswe can maybe put leaders into.
Sure.
I have found, I've been doingthis for about 23 years, small business, big consulting.
I've seen a whole bunchof different things.
And again, if you ask four differentpeople that question, Randy and
I, I know you already have, uh,you'll get four different answers.
Right.
(11:43):
But.
My observations, this is how I kindof bucket the people that I work with and how I think about leadership is.
So there are four types that Ireally see, or four ways of leading.
And the first would be some peoplelead with vision and strategy.
So they are directive,they are future looking.
(12:05):
They see things most of us don't see.
They're looking at trends, etc. Thesecond type that I see, or the expertise
in leadership, if you will, are thoughtleaders or leaders who love to educate.
I think Randy, you areone of those people.
I think you're visionary for sure.
No question.
I also think you're, obviously, you havea podcast, you're bringing all sorts of unique thoughts into the industry,
(12:30):
and you're bringing topics that arenot necessarily technically related.
Right?
And that's what thought leaders do.
They educate.
Yep.
The third category wouldbe people, leaders.
That's when we use the word leader insocial media or in public or whatever, in having conversations with people,
(12:53):
that's kind of the assumed leader thatwe're talking about is a people leader.
But there are a lot of people outthere who are not people leaders and they shouldn't be people leaders.
But we assume that that's whatpeople mean when they say leader.
And then the fourth grouping that Iwould put in there would be process leaders or technical leaders.
(13:13):
And there it's prettyself-explanatory there.
So you've got vision and strategy,thought and education leaders, people leaders, and then process in tech.
Yeah.
And honestly when I look at that,that's very similar to the four corners that we did when we were in
doing the Cliftons strength findersbecause we had relationship builders.
(13:34):
Maybe that's people we had.
Yeah, the strategic thinkers,which obviously falls into one.
We have the influencers, which is probablythe thought leaders, and then you had the process and technology, which is.
The doers more so is what it was in there.
So I could see the, okay,so that's pretty cool.
I can relate this to something I knowevery day you can, you can, you really
(13:56):
know that Clifton tool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was so impactful to me.
Yeah.
It's something that I speakabout a lot when I'm out doing my
presentations on culture becauseit, it meant so much to me.
So, so in those four categories we justtalked about, if my perception, the way I see things, is that probably.
(14:17):
A majority of the leaders in thecounty profession are the process and technical type leadership.
Can we function as anorganization with that alone?
I can't imagine we could, andif not, you know, what do we do?
How do we identify?
What's our next step to make sure thatwe have leaders in all these areas?
That's a great question and somethingthat I like to say when I talk about these categories is it's very unusual
(14:44):
to find a single leader who cancover all four of those components.
Oh
yeah.
So we need to have all of thosetypes of leaders within a firm and or
within a team, depending on how largeyour teams are, your divisions are.
So we really need to lookfor variety and breadth of.
Types of people and what you're leading.
(15:07):
That's what I call thisis what do you lead?
Do you lead vision,thought, people, or process?
And they're important at every level.
We need all four typesin order to function.
And so that's where some ofthese assessments can come in.
But you don't have to payfor a fancy assessment.
You can a lot of times look, youknow, describe your experience with
(15:28):
that person, and it comes out prettyclearly of where they're leading.
So I think what we do with all ofthis is one of the things that you said a couple minutes ago was people
don't always have the opportunityto use their strengths at work.
Yes.
And that's really what we wanna hone inon is what part of this is your strength?
(15:51):
How does that fit within the firm?
And from a business strategy,what is it that we need in place?
In order to grow or stretch ormorph the business into what it
is that we're looking to do andadd more value to our clients.
And that brings me to a topicof culture and how do we, how do we ensure that we have.
(16:14):
People at every level in the firm, inevery role in the firm that are modeling our culture and building up our culture.
I've heard you, I listened to yourpodcast, obviously, and there's a lot of conversation with previous guests
about who's coming into the industry anda concern about either lack of people
(16:35):
that are coming in or a, a, a slowedpace of people that are coming in.
Yep.
Uh, newbies, if you will,coming into the industry and.
When I hear that kind of commentary,and I link it to what we're talking about here, I'm a very curious person.
As a coach and a consultant, my job isto ask questions, and so what comes to my mind when I hear that is, yes, we need
(16:57):
to work on education and advertising andall of that, and working on schools and what they're teaching a hundred percent.
And firm owners who are listeningto this need to also ask themselves, what am I doing?
What are we doing as a firm?
As a value proposition to potential hires.
(17:19):
What is it that we have to enticeor appeal or attract the type of
people that we want for the firm withthese varying types of skill sets?
And I, I'd be curious to hearyour thoughts about that.
Yeah.
So for me it is the fact thatI think the reason that we are having an issue with people in the
(17:40):
profession is because the process andtechnical end is what we highlight.
Mm-hmm.
So often that it is not this visionand strategy and impact from a thought leader standpoint, you know?
Going out and showing the impact thatwe're having on the clients we work with.
We're impacting them as a businessowner, but we're impacting the people they work with that we're impacting the
(18:05):
future of many lives that are tied tothis organization with the knowledge and the expertise that we have.
And we can see that and we canshow the value of what we're doing,
which gets me into that hours,which you talked about earlier.
Yeah.
But we can show that, thatwe are super important.
Honestly, I have a friend ofmine, Jennifer Wilson, who said, oh, how did she put this?
(18:28):
As accountants, we are guardiansof the galaxy's economy.
Ooh.
And if you look at that way,we're superheroes out there.
We need capes.
I was just gonna say, you need capes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if we start showing that ratherthan showing that someone sits at their desk for 80 hours and pumps out tax
returns all day long, that's gonna showa different story in this profession.
(18:50):
And I think that's part of it isfrom a leadership standpoint, we have to show a different story.
Yeah, I think that's the magic word.
As you were talking, I wasthinking this is storytelling.
Yep.
And if I bring us back to these,these categories, if you will, buckets of leaders of what are you leading?
I'm wondering if the peoplethat are telling the stories are trying or not telling the stories.
(19:12):
Right, right, right.
Our technical process aretechnical excellence leaders that are trying to attract.
This new generation of accountingprofessionals into their firms, but because their process and technical.
They're oriented with tech technicalities.
I'm having a hard time saying that,but that there's lacking the leadership and the visionary storytelling
(19:40):
that creates a picture of whatthis industry can do for your life.
Yep.
Yeah, I can see myself in the visionaryin the strategy and I can, and not the strategy as much as the visionary
and the thought leader, but theother parts I can't see myself in.
So I can go out and say what we're doing,what we should be doing, and how this
is, could be an awesome profession andwhat, but I can't then put that in the.
(20:03):
Practice in the profession from astandpoint is let's do this process of
procedures and KPIs and make sure we're,you know, being as efficient as possible.
But that's super important, so wejust have to make sure, I guess, that the right storytellers are out there.
From a leadership standpoint, actually,to be fair, I really have a positive outlook on this profession, and we
(20:23):
actually saw just recently where therewas an uptick in enrollment in accounting.
This just came out this past year and wesaw this, just, this, just, I saw today for the first time, there was an increase
in salaries and I think people coming intothe profession, not even the universities,
(20:45):
just recently too, so, so somehowsomebody out there is showing that vision.
It may be making a difference, and I'mvery excited to see that this could be where we're heading in the future.
It's a small sample size right now, butat least it's a, uh, a positive trend.
That's exciting.
That is very exciting to see the uptick.
(21:05):
So bravo to whoever isdoing that work out there.
And I think, Randy, Iknow you're part of it.
I was
just gonna say it's all me.
I love it.
I, it's
not all me, it is not all me.
But there's a lot of goodthings happening out there.
And so here's something I would encourageyour listeners even just to think about.
(21:26):
This is off the cuff, but youknow, take out a piece of paper
or get your phone out and reallythink through what is our story.
I. What is the story at our firm?
Yep.
From someone who comes in either asan intern or an associate or whatever
your low, you know, your entry levelrole is, or even a mid-level person.
What kind of stories can we tell about thelives that we change for the employees?
(21:50):
I'm talking about anemployee value proposition.
Yes.
I love that.
And how do we help them professionally?
How do we help them mature?
Yep.
As a human, how do we manage and lead themin a way that they receive and they want?
How do we help them dream?
(22:12):
Do we build careers?
You know, we a client,an old client of mine.
This is the, just one of the mostmoving things I'd ever heard.
And the guy would tear up aboutit when he would talk about it, sales industry and recruiters.
It was the office that he had.
And he would say, when people come to myto interview with me for an AE and account
(22:34):
executive recruiter role, you know, andI say, what do you think we do here?
And the candidate would say tohim, well, you make placements and you do this and you do that.
And he goes, yeah, we do thatfor the people outside the firm.
For the people inside thefirm and he memorized this.
Randy, he knew it by heart 'cause it meantso much to him as the business owner.
He'd say, we've put 15kids through college.
(22:58):
We've purchased, I don't know the number,whatever, a hundred pair of braces.
We've bought new bicycles, we'vedone this, you know, and he talked
about how he changed the life ofthe people that worked at the firm.
Now there is nothing, you know, overlyexciting and nobody wakes up in the morning and says, I wanna be a recruiter.
(23:20):
I don't know if anybody wakes up in themorning and says, I wanna, I'm 4-year-old who says I wanna be an accountant.
Maybe a lot of people do that,but when they hear that story.
They go, wow, I wanna be a part of thisorganization that is changing lives and I want my kids to go to college because
I work at a stable firm that's gonna giveme the income to put them through school.
(23:40):
Right?
Yep.
That's storytelling about whyaccounting matters and on both sides for clients and for the team itself.
So for your listeners, what's yourvalue prop for candidates who want to interview at your firm holistically?
How do you change their life?
How do you prepare them for.
A career and leadership and whatever.
(24:03):
It's a real good question to ask yourselfand say, gosh, if I saw that on a piece of paper, would I wanna work here?
Right.
Right.
What you just said wasgiving me goosebumps.
'cause I just had a very similarconversation yesterday with Ron Baker.
Many of our listeners know RonBaker, but we were talking about the progression of economic value.
Yeah.
And what it used to be and nowwhat it is today and it and that
(24:24):
when it, before you even said it,I was thinking, yeah, the story is.
We save this company tax dollars.
Okay.
No, you know, we, you know, put Xamount of dollars back in the business and they were able to use that to.
You do this and I was thinking,send 10 more people to college, that kind of thing.
And so, yeah, that's amuch better story to tell.
(24:45):
It gets people more excited and,and allows you to know that what you're doing is having an impact.
Yeah.
So, so that was great.
But
both stories matter.
You Absolutely.
You're in business to helpyour clients get better, right?
Yeah.
So you definitely wanna talk aboutthe savings and all of the Oh, yeah.
The benefits business wise, butthere's two sides to the story of why should you come work for me with us?
(25:08):
And candidly, some clients willmake choices because they wanna
make sure that they're working for afirm that cares about their people.
Yep.
Oh yeah.
Right.
So telling that story on both sidesis appealing to both sides at times.
So that's where some of this gets intothe bigger issues of culture, right.
And the opportunity to reallybuild a practice that has legacy.
(25:29):
And you and I need to talkmore, I think at some point.
'cause I've wrote, written a culturecode for our organization and in
there I talk about what our promisesare to the people who work here.
And that's a story.
Love it.
We tell it, but we live it.
And I don't know if you and Italked about this before in 18 years, we're at 80 people now.
We've had nine people leave.
Yeah.
You know, having that storyout there and communicating it.
(25:53):
So people know it and, but thenliving it, that you can't just say the words, you have to live the words.
It makes a difference.
So, great conversation so far, andI don't wanna end it, but I wanna go kind of back to where we started a
little bit with this whole technicalexpert becoming leader at some level.
And so what are the roadblocksthat come into play?
How do we get past that?
(26:13):
How do we, you know, get to whereit's beneficial to the person becoming the leader and the firm itself?
Yeah, so we talked a little bit aboutfirst identifying what does the firm need, then looking at values and
how all that stuff aligns so thatwe're choosing the right people.
And then when you see, let's say that someof your listeners, they need to promote someone into a team leader or a manager
(26:36):
or a senior manager or whatever kind ofrole through the ranks, if you will, of leadership, and they have someone in mind.
That person is a really good technician.
They're a really good CPA or accountantor whatever their function is in the role.
Like what do we do then?
Mm-hmm.
A starting place for that for mewould be to call me crazy, but have a candid conversation with the person.
(27:01):
Oh, that's good.
It's just saying, Hey John,we've seen this about you.
We have a need and we're wondering.
Are you interested?
What do you think about?
Have you ever considered,what do you wanna do?
You know, there's so many ways youcan go with that conversation and just test it and find out, honestly.
Do you have a heart for people?
Yeah.
Do you prefer tech?
(27:22):
Do you just wanna stay in a, in anexpertise role, which, gosh, we need that.
Yeah, but we also need this.
And we're just tapping you tosee, hey, are you interested?
If they say yes and they wanna moveforward, I. I've seen literally hundreds
of people struggle with letting go ofthat identity as a technician expert.
(27:44):
An expert technician.
Mm-hmm.
And embracing the new identity of,I'm still really, really good at that,
and now my attention needs to shiftto influencing other technicians.
To make stronger results.
Now my job is to influence through othersversus being the technician myself.
(28:05):
And so it's a mindset shift.
And then there's alsoskillsets that need to shift.
Oftentimes letting goof control and trust.
Learning how to trust, learning how todelegate, learning how to communicate
and understand, ask questions ratherthan telling how to do things.
That's control.
(28:26):
So it usually starts with coachingor training or mentoring from someone else within the firm who has those
delegation, trust, relationshiplistening, letting go, competencies to really help that up and comer, if you
will, experience it, get some tacticaltraining on it, and then setting up.
(28:48):
Mentoring or scenarios, low riskscenarios in which they can begin to practice that without breaking the house.
Yeah, great advice.
And I was living my life, what you werejust saying there, because there's skills I don't have that I always thought this
was who I was and it took me a mindset,what you just said, a mindset shift.
(29:10):
A mindset changed to realizethis is where I needed to be.
And the one was managing partner.
I wasn't.
I really didn't, shouldn't havebeen, I didn't have the process
and the technology skills to reallymanage a firm, a growth firm.
I had the skills, a visionary.
I can start a firm, I can get it going.
And so I think that's the one thingthat maybe sometimes we miss, is that we can look to those technical.
(29:33):
Experts.
Experts as the leadership, but inreality, there's somebody that may
not be that technically sound that hasgreat leadership skills somewhere else.
And so as leaders ourselves in anorganization, we also have to have this
mindset of, yes, make sure we're opento the skillsets that everybody has.
And even though they may not be the mosttechnical expert in their organization.
(29:57):
They still, if we can identifythose other skills that they have
that could show that the leadershipis there in an area we need.
I think that's one that I think you askedme earlier is some things where we may be lacking or may not see through the clouds.
I don't know if you put it that way.
I. That's, I think, in everyorganization, not just accounting, where we sometimes probably miss
(30:18):
potential great leaders because theyweren't great at their current job.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You've said it well, and I do want to,and I hope you won't edit this out,
but I do wanna really say Bravo to youbecause the humility that it takes.
The confidence that it takes torealize I'm not an mp, that's not what I want, a managing partner.
(30:39):
I need to move in a differentdirection and look what it's done.
Yeah.
It's created this podcast and yourconference and the way that you are being a thought leader and a strategist
in the industry to kind of shake thingsup a little bit, and that's exactly what we're talking about, Randy, is that
when people are able to make that kindof a decision and have that awareness.
(31:01):
About where their expertiseis in the leadership vote.
Really phenomenal things can happenonce they feel the freedom to make those decisions or be challenged into a role.
Like we may see that someone has a lotof potential, but they're terrified.
But if we just affirm themand say, gosh, I trust us.
We see you've got this.
(31:22):
We can encourage someone into thatand we can also watch someone do what you did, which is to have the
humility and the confidence to say,no, I need to move in a different direction and make my impact this way.
So bravo to you, and I'm certainthat you're an inspiration to
other people to think differentlymindset about themselves.
So well done.
(31:43):
Well, thank you.
I get, uh, I don't know blush when Ihear that kind of stuff, but I did wanna say, 'cause one thing that you said
is there's been multiple people outthere where I knew they had a voice.
That was hidden inside them that theywere afraid to let out, and I almost feel
(32:04):
like I, and I didn't, but it almost feelslike I forced them to be on the podcast.
But I did because I knew that theyhad important things to share, and I've seen it more than once where,
not that I'm saying I did this,they did everything, but I just gave 'em on that platform to do it.
But I could just see.
A light bulb went off of them.
I was like, yeah, I can go outand I do have important things to say and I can share it.
(32:26):
So, all right.
Well enough about that.
Let's, let's move onbecause I, that was so fun.
Alright, so we're gonna have to wrap up.
I can keep going on this forever.
I never really realized I would enjoytalking about leadership so much.
'cause leadership, as you andI talked offline, leadership was always a scary word for me.
Mm-hmm.
And I didn't even realize that tillyou and I talked the first time, but this is such an interesting subject
(32:50):
because it's not, leadership is not whatI thought it was even two weeks ago.
It's a lot differentthan I thought it was.
So thank you for educating me on this.
But before we wrap up, there's acouple of questions I wanna ask
you and if you listen to episodes,you know this is coming I suppose.
So we all this leadership and whatpeople could do and opportunity.
(33:13):
When you're not talking leadership, whenyou're not out inspiring people to find
their leadership style or, or who, whatkind of leader they are, what do you do?
What's your outside of work passions?
What do you enjoy?
Oh gosh.
Couples well, a bunch of things.
Well, you know, we live in the Midwest.
I really do.
My husband and I love to get out intothe woods and walk nice and hike with,
(33:33):
get our boots on, lace up the boots andthe rougher the path the better for me.
I don't like to walk on paved.
I like rough stuff.
Yeah.
So we love to do that.
Where to?
Getting into spring here soon.
So we should be able to start doing that.
I have a very significantnumber of food sensitivities.
I'm a total geek on healthy cooking,allergy free cooking, and E. And I love to
(33:59):
cook and try to feel like a normal person,you know, with making food at home.
So that's a big part of my life,is healthy eating and trying to get outside and be healthy.
All right.
And then last couple of things beforewe went live, you, uh, I guess it wasn't live, it's, uh, recorded,
but before we started recording, youtold me you had an offer to give.
(34:21):
So let me let you explain what that is.
I do, absolutely.
I would love to, uh, help anyonewho's listening, uh, think about their own leadership bucket or.
Type or category as we talkedabout those four things.
So I've got a real easy one pager giveawaythat I would love to share with you
guys, and you can find that at the nameof my company is Effectivity Consulting.
(34:45):
I know it's a funky word, but so you canfind that at www.effectivity.consulting.
Which is E-F-F-E-C-T-I-V-I-T-Y.
Say that three times fast.
Yeah.
Slash unique.
All right.
And we'll put that on theshow notes too, so yeah.
(35:06):
Okay.
Yeah.
And you can download that and uh, justkind of think a little bit through your own style and where your strengths are.
Okay.
And then obviously they can getto the website pretty much the same address without the slash
Yep.
Effectivity consulting.
Uh, there's no.com, it's doconsulting and I'm also on LinkedIn so they can find me there.
(35:26):
LinkedIn as well.
Alright, well this is great.
I hope people do reach out and lookand see what's going on because there's a, uh, a pretty important thing,
especially well in all professions,but I'm passionate about accounting and especially in our profession.
I'm looking at that.
So thank you so much for being here today.
Thanks for having me.
And Randy, seriously, just bravo forall that you're doing in the industry.
(35:49):
Thank you.
Thank you for joining ustoday on the unique CPA.
You can find the show notes fortoday's episode and learn more about Tri-Merit at TheUniqueCPA.com.
Remember to subscribe andleave a five star rating on your favorite podcasting app.
And join us next time for more expertiseand insights on The Unique CPA.
(36:14):
Hey,
professional productions.net.
Hello, and welcome to The UniqueCPA with your host, Randy Crabtree.
We are committed to creating a thrivingcommunity of accounting professionals
who are physically and mentally healthy,fulfilled, and energized by their work.
Our ultimate goal is to elevatethe reputation of the accounting
profession and vastly improvedthe lives of those in it.
The Unique CPA is broughtto you by Tri-Merit, the specialty tax professionals.
(00:24):
Today on The Unique CPA, we'retalking about something that many accounting firms struggle with, and
that is the transition from technicalexpert to effective people leader.
Our guest today, Annette Wehrli, is anexpert in helping business owners and leaders align their business strategy
with their people strategy, whichobviously is a very passionate topic.
I like talking about creatinga high performing team and a healthy results driven culture.
(00:50):
Today, we'll kind of see wherethis conversation goes, but I think we'll delve into talking about what
makes a great leader and differentleadership styles even, and how
even firms maybe can build strongleadership bench for long-term success.
Annette, welcome to The Unique CPA
A. Thanks for having me, Randy.
I'm glad to be here.
Not putting too my pressure with so manythings there that I mentioned on there, but we'll see where we get to today.
(01:13):
It's always just a conversation.
But why don't you give us a littlebit more like your firm name, your
company name what you're doing,and don't you do an intro yourself.
Sure, thank you.
So I cut my teeth in one of thebig consulting firms and then spent the majority of my career really as
a consultant and a coach to smallbusiness owners and leaders in the service industry, sales industry, and
(01:38):
did some training in there as welland, and a whole myriad of things.
But it's really around coachingand helping leaders get better on the people side of their business.
And this is my passion.
So yeah, you created a long listfor us to cover today, but I'll say that really is my passion.
It's what gets me out of bed every day.
(01:59):
So I'm excited to talk about it today.
Well, me too actually.
You and I talked a few weeks ago andI came out of that conversation with
some new knowledge that I've actuallybeen sharing with others as well.
In fact, it was, we talked about on a,uh, episode that we recorded earlier today, I. Where you and I talked
about leadership and how I, uh, didn'tsee myself as a leader and, and you, uh, corrected me I guess on that.
(02:27):
So
yeah.
But it was interestingconversation, so I appreciate that.
Let's talk into, because I think thisis an issue in public accounting.
We have a lot of issuesin public accounting.
Public account is a greatprofession and it, it is amazing.
We have a perception issue in theprofession and actually a little reality issue too with what we really are.
But one of the things I thinkwe struggle with is we build.
(02:52):
Create a reward technicalexpertise, which is fine.
We are very technical profession, butthen as people come up, you know, they have this technical knowledge and that's
what we see as most important, but wedon't spend a lot of time cultivating the leadership skills that they need.
I don't know if you've seen this.
(03:13):
But how would you suggest we address this?
Going from a technical expertto a people leader or whatever the steps are in between there?
Yeah, that's such an importantdistinction, and I don't think accounting is the only industry.
Well, I know accounting is not theonly industry to fall into that trap.
I come from service and sales backgroundsand companies, and the sales industry is notorious for taking a high performer.
(03:43):
Yep.
Who knows how to sell and close a dealand negotiate and fill in the blank.
All those ING words that we need todo, and we say, gosh, John is such
a phenomenal salesman, or closer orwhatever, we should make him a team lead.
And you know how that goes.
(04:03):
Oh yeah.
We did that ourselves actually.
Yeah.
Yep.
So I've seen it and I know it'snot always the right decision.
So, yep, go ahead.
So like you said, we rewardbased on technical skill.
No matter what you're doing, what industryyou're in, you're good at a widget maker.
And so.
We say that you should moveup and and manage people.
(04:24):
And an accountant, a widget makeror a salesperson, may be phenomenal
at what they do and both, andthey're not good at managing people.
They're not good at leading people,and they have no desire for that.
And so you just asked, you know,what, how do we remedy this?
(04:44):
I really think we have to take astep back and as leaders really force ourselves to say, wait a minute, what
is it that we're looking for in the roleand what does the business need this?
You talked about me helping peoplealign the business strategy with the people strategy, and it's saying,
I know we need a team leader or amanager, or whatever the role is, but what kind of person do we need?
(05:11):
How does that align with our values?
What are we trying to accomplishfrom a business standpoint, from
a people standpoint, and is thisthe right person for that role?
Do they have those competencies?
Do they have that heart for people, etc.?
And I think that's by askingourselves those reflective questions on the front end.
(05:34):
Now we have a rubric, if youwill, to consider people that would be candidates for that.
Promotion or that, that opportunitywithin the firm, that's a starting place.
Yep.
And when we're looking at that,'cause this is one thing I I'm very
passionate about too, is that allowingpeople to delve into their strengths.
(05:54):
And so if people don't have aleadership strength, is this something that you suggest we work on?
Is this something that I not even suggest?
Is this something you see there'sopportunities for people to strengthen these leadership areas or, you know, we
have, and this is something maybe we couldtalk about, there's different leadership.
Styles or personalities or whatever, dowe need to identify where their leadership style is and then see if there's a way to
(06:22):
try to enhance that even further throughsome kind of education or programs.
What do you see whenyou're bringing up leaders?
Do you, is there just a, Hey, cookiecutter, this is what we're doing and this is how you have to become a leader?
Or how do you see the bestway to develop leaders are.
Yeah, I don't thinkthere's a cookie cutter.
There is no conveyor belt thatwe can put people on a system, I believe wholeheartedly in training.
(06:44):
I've led those kind of programs.
I've built leadership developmentprograms over multi months and years,
so I absolutely believe in coaching andtraining to skill sets and competencies.
And you can go to places like Gallup orKorn Ferry, or the big consulting firms, or the Center for Creative Leadership.
We know what many of thecompetencies of leadership are.
(07:07):
So sure.
A lot of curricula for leadershipdevelopment include communication, empathy, listening, decision
making, handling stress, youknow, all of those components.
But I don't believe that there's a cookiecutter way to lead because one of the things that you and I talked about.
A couple of weeks ago was thataccounting and numbers are predictable and they do what you tell them to do.
(07:35):
Mm-hmm.
Humans do not.
And so to say that there's oneway to lead, or this is the only thing it is, it's just absurd.
So it's very human, it's very, it, evenculture based, it can be company based,
but sure there are some mile markersand some milestones that we look for.
(07:55):
When we are developing andcoaching, it can be anything from going to classes and courses.
It can be certain leadership events,it can be mentoring, it can be coaching a, a, a wide variety of options.
But it starts with us saying, what isit that we really are looking for from a leadership standpoint, from this person?
(08:18):
What kind of firm are we?
What kind of culture are we tryingto create and what competencies are needed for that in addition
to having subject knowledge of allof the accounting principles that
are really important to be able tomanage the specifics of day-to-day?
I.
So in, in that then, so we're identifyingsomebody, we want this person, we see opportunity for them to lead.
(08:42):
Is it, 'cause you mentioned a few thingswith Gallup and Korn Ferry and the CL. You know, I think you and I, when we
talked last time, something that wedid as a organization was the cliff
and strengths finders, which was veryimpactful thing for me just to see that.
And then you see peoplehave different skill sets.
You know in there, they broke us oninto four different areas, and I know nothing about developing leaders in
(09:07):
that you're the expert here, but does itmake sense to do some kind of, I assume that's what Gallup or Korn Ferry might
do, is go identify the strengths or theleadership style that this individual
has, and then when we are doing training,that's how we're gonna lean into it.
Yeah, there are a myriad of assessmentsthat you can look at, I mean, more than you would possibly need.
(09:28):
Assessment is a very importantcomponent and there's a lot of difference in assessments.
So some of them are leadershipstyle, some of them are, I. Social
preferences like the disc, whatkind of personality are you?
That's not leadership.
That's your personality.
How do you work in the world?
And then there are veryspecific leadership assessments.
(09:50):
There's 360 degree surveysthat you can do where you get manager, peer and direct reports.
I mean.
That's an exhaustive list for sure.
Assessments are a great place tostart in understanding the person that you're bringing in on a holistic
level, and then from there you look at,all right, let's talk about what are your passions, your heart for people?
(10:14):
What do you wanna do with your career?
Do you want the pressure of beinga partner in an accounting firm?
Do you want to be a manager?
Do you really wanna be an individualcontributor who just really loves to do great diagnostic work with clients?
And all of that is okay?
It's just making sure thatwe're doing a deep dive into.
(10:36):
A wide variety of asking ourselvesabout the person and what the business
needs and making sure that that alignsas opposed to, Hey, Steve got promoted.
We need to move someone into that spotreal quick because tax season is coming.
So let's move Jane into that role.
Real quick so that we can have someonein the seat, which is what most of us do, because time is money, right?
(11:03):
Well, yeah, too often time is money.
And I think the accounting profession,'cause we value ourselves on time rather than on the value we're delivering.
But that's another story probably it is.
It's, uh, for a later time.
So let's talk about then, if we'redoing an assessment and we're finding out what are, you know.
Types of leaders, I guess.
Mm-hmm.
(11:23):
There are, you know, categorieswe can maybe put leaders into.
Sure.
I have found, I've been doingthis for about 23 years, small business, big consulting.
I've seen a whole bunchof different things.
And again, if you ask four differentpeople that question, Randy and
I, I know you already have, uh,you'll get four different answers.
Right.
(11:43):
But.
My observations, this is how I kindof bucket the people that I work with and how I think about leadership is.
So there are four types that Ireally see, or four ways of leading.
And the first would be some peoplelead with vision and strategy.
So they are directive,they are future looking.
(12:05):
They see things most of us don't see.
They're looking at trends, etc. Thesecond type that I see, or the expertise
in leadership, if you will, are thoughtleaders or leaders who love to educate.
I think Randy, you areone of those people.
I think you're visionary for sure.
No question.
I also think you're, obviously, you havea podcast, you're bringing all sorts of unique thoughts into the industry,
(12:30):
and you're bringing topics that arenot necessarily technically related.
Right?
And that's what thought leaders do.
They educate.
Yep.
The third category wouldbe people, leaders.
That's when we use the word leader insocial media or in public or whatever, in having conversations with people,
(12:53):
that's kind of the assumed leader thatwe're talking about is a people leader.
But there are a lot of people outthere who are not people leaders and they shouldn't be people leaders.
But we assume that that's whatpeople mean when they say leader.
And then the fourth grouping that Iwould put in there would be process leaders or technical leaders.
(13:13):
And there it's prettyself-explanatory there.
So you've got vision and strategy,thought and education leaders, people leaders, and then process in tech.
Yeah.
And honestly when I look at that,that's very similar to the four corners that we did when we were in
doing the Cliftons strength findersbecause we had relationship builders.
(13:34):
Maybe that's people we had.
Yeah, the strategic thinkers,which obviously falls into one.
We have the influencers, which is probablythe thought leaders, and then you had the process and technology, which is.
The doers more so is what it was in there.
So I could see the, okay,so that's pretty cool.
I can relate this to something I knowevery day you can, you can, you really
(13:56):
know that Clifton tool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was so impactful to me.
Yeah.
It's something that I speakabout a lot when I'm out doing my
presentations on culture becauseit, it meant so much to me.
So, so in those four categories we justtalked about, if my perception, the way I see things, is that probably.
(14:17):
A majority of the leaders in thecounty profession are the process and technical type leadership.
Can we function as anorganization with that alone?
I can't imagine we could, andif not, you know, what do we do?
How do we identify?
What's our next step to make sure thatwe have leaders in all these areas?
That's a great question and somethingthat I like to say when I talk about these categories is it's very unusual
(14:44):
to find a single leader who cancover all four of those components.
Oh
yeah.
So we need to have all of thosetypes of leaders within a firm and or
within a team, depending on how largeyour teams are, your divisions are.
So we really need to lookfor variety and breadth of.
Types of people and what you're leading.
(15:07):
That's what I call thisis what do you lead?
Do you lead vision,thought, people, or process?
And they're important at every level.
We need all four typesin order to function.
And so that's where some ofthese assessments can come in.
But you don't have to payfor a fancy assessment.
You can a lot of times look, youknow, describe your experience with
(15:28):
that person, and it comes out prettyclearly of where they're leading.
So I think what we do with all ofthis is one of the things that you said a couple minutes ago was people
don't always have the opportunityto use their strengths at work.
Yes.
And that's really what we wanna hone inon is what part of this is your strength?
(15:51):
How does that fit within the firm?
And from a business strategy,what is it that we need in place?
In order to grow or stretch ormorph the business into what it
is that we're looking to do andadd more value to our clients.
And that brings me to a topicof culture and how do we, how do we ensure that we have.
(16:14):
People at every level in the firm, inevery role in the firm that are modeling our culture and building up our culture.
I've heard you, I listened to yourpodcast, obviously, and there's a lot of conversation with previous guests
about who's coming into the industry anda concern about either lack of people
(16:35):
that are coming in or a, a, a slowedpace of people that are coming in.
Yep.
Uh, newbies, if you will,coming into the industry and.
When I hear that kind of commentary,and I link it to what we're talking about here, I'm a very curious person.
As a coach and a consultant, my job isto ask questions, and so what comes to my mind when I hear that is, yes, we need
(16:57):
to work on education and advertising andall of that, and working on schools and what they're teaching a hundred percent.
And firm owners who are listeningto this need to also ask themselves, what am I doing?
What are we doing as a firm?
As a value proposition to potential hires.
(17:19):
What is it that we have to enticeor appeal or attract the type of
people that we want for the firm withthese varying types of skill sets?
And I, I'd be curious to hearyour thoughts about that.
Yeah.
So for me it is the fact thatI think the reason that we are having an issue with people in the
(17:40):
profession is because the process andtechnical end is what we highlight.
Mm-hmm.
So often that it is not this visionand strategy and impact from a thought leader standpoint, you know?
Going out and showing the impact thatwe're having on the clients we work with.
We're impacting them as a businessowner, but we're impacting the people they work with that we're impacting the
(18:05):
future of many lives that are tied tothis organization with the knowledge and the expertise that we have.
And we can see that and we canshow the value of what we're doing,
which gets me into that hours,which you talked about earlier.
Yeah.
But we can show that, thatwe are super important.
Honestly, I have a friend ofmine, Jennifer Wilson, who said, oh, how did she put this?
(18:28):
As accountants, we are guardiansof the galaxy's economy.
Ooh.
And if you look at that way,we're superheroes out there.
We need capes.
I was just gonna say, you need capes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if we start showing that ratherthan showing that someone sits at their desk for 80 hours and pumps out tax
returns all day long, that's gonna showa different story in this profession.
(18:50):
And I think that's part of it isfrom a leadership standpoint, we have to show a different story.
Yeah, I think that's the magic word.
As you were talking, I wasthinking this is storytelling.
Yep.
And if I bring us back to these,these categories, if you will, buckets of leaders of what are you leading?
I'm wondering if the peoplethat are telling the stories are trying or not telling the stories.
(19:12):
Right, right, right.
Our technical process aretechnical excellence leaders that are trying to attract.
This new generation of accountingprofessionals into their firms, but because their process and technical.
They're oriented with tech technicalities.
I'm having a hard time saying that,but that there's lacking the leadership and the visionary storytelling
(19:40):
that creates a picture of whatthis industry can do for your life.
Yep.
Yeah, I can see myself in the visionaryin the strategy and I can, and not the strategy as much as the visionary
and the thought leader, but theother parts I can't see myself in.
So I can go out and say what we're doing,what we should be doing, and how this
is, could be an awesome profession andwhat, but I can't then put that in the.
(20:03):
Practice in the profession from astandpoint is let's do this process of
procedures and KPIs and make sure we're,you know, being as efficient as possible.
But that's super important, so wejust have to make sure, I guess, that the right storytellers are out there.
From a leadership standpoint, actually,to be fair, I really have a positive outlook on this profession, and we
(20:23):
actually saw just recently where therewas an uptick in enrollment in accounting.
This just came out this past year and wesaw this, just, this, just, I saw today for the first time, there was an increase
in salaries and I think people coming intothe profession, not even the universities,
(20:45):
just recently too, so, so somehowsomebody out there is showing that vision.
It may be making a difference, and I'mvery excited to see that this could be where we're heading in the future.
It's a small sample size right now, butat least it's a, uh, a positive trend.
That's exciting.
That is very exciting to see the uptick.
(21:05):
So bravo to whoever isdoing that work out there.
And I think, Randy, Iknow you're part of it.
I was
just gonna say it's all me.
I love it.
I, it's
not all me, it is not all me.
But there's a lot of goodthings happening out there.
And so here's something I would encourageyour listeners even just to think about.
(21:26):
This is off the cuff, but youknow, take out a piece of paper
or get your phone out and reallythink through what is our story.
I. What is the story at our firm?
Yep.
From someone who comes in either asan intern or an associate or whatever
your low, you know, your entry levelrole is, or even a mid-level person.
What kind of stories can we tell about thelives that we change for the employees?
(21:50):
I'm talking about anemployee value proposition.
Yes.
I love that.
And how do we help them professionally?
How do we help them mature?
Yep.
As a human, how do we manage and lead themin a way that they receive and they want?
How do we help them dream?
(22:12):
Do we build careers?
You know, we a client,an old client of mine.
This is the, just one of the mostmoving things I'd ever heard.
And the guy would tear up aboutit when he would talk about it, sales industry and recruiters.
It was the office that he had.
And he would say, when people come to myto interview with me for an AE and account
(22:34):
executive recruiter role, you know, andI say, what do you think we do here?
And the candidate would say tohim, well, you make placements and you do this and you do that.
And he goes, yeah, we do thatfor the people outside the firm.
For the people inside thefirm and he memorized this.
Randy, he knew it by heart 'cause it meantso much to him as the business owner.
He'd say, we've put 15kids through college.
(22:58):
We've purchased, I don't know the number,whatever, a hundred pair of braces.
We've bought new bicycles, we'vedone this, you know, and he talked
about how he changed the life ofthe people that worked at the firm.
Now there is nothing, you know, overlyexciting and nobody wakes up in the morning and says, I wanna be a recruiter.
(23:20):
I don't know if anybody wakes up in themorning and says, I wanna, I'm 4-year-old who says I wanna be an accountant.
Maybe a lot of people do that,but when they hear that story.
They go, wow, I wanna be a part of thisorganization that is changing lives and I want my kids to go to college because
I work at a stable firm that's gonna giveme the income to put them through school.
(23:40):
Right?
Yep.
That's storytelling about whyaccounting matters and on both sides for clients and for the team itself.
So for your listeners, what's yourvalue prop for candidates who want to interview at your firm holistically?
How do you change their life?
How do you prepare them for.
A career and leadership and whatever.
(24:03):
It's a real good question to ask yourselfand say, gosh, if I saw that on a piece of paper, would I wanna work here?
Right.
Right.
What you just said wasgiving me goosebumps.
'cause I just had a very similarconversation yesterday with Ron Baker.
Many of our listeners know RonBaker, but we were talking about the progression of economic value.
Yeah.
And what it used to be and nowwhat it is today and it and that
(24:24):
when it, before you even said it,I was thinking, yeah, the story is.
We save this company tax dollars.
Okay.
No, you know, we, you know, put Xamount of dollars back in the business and they were able to use that to.
You do this and I was thinking,send 10 more people to college, that kind of thing.
And so, yeah, that's amuch better story to tell.
(24:45):
It gets people more excited and,and allows you to know that what you're doing is having an impact.
Yeah.
So, so that was great.
But
both stories matter.
You Absolutely.
You're in business to helpyour clients get better, right?
Yeah.
So you definitely wanna talk aboutthe savings and all of the Oh, yeah.
The benefits business wise, butthere's two sides to the story of why should you come work for me with us?
(25:08):
And candidly, some clients willmake choices because they wanna
make sure that they're working for afirm that cares about their people.
Yep.
Oh yeah.
Right.
So telling that story on both sidesis appealing to both sides at times.
So that's where some of this gets intothe bigger issues of culture, right.
And the opportunity to reallybuild a practice that has legacy.
(25:29):
And you and I need to talkmore, I think at some point.
'cause I've wrote, written a culturecode for our organization and in
there I talk about what our promisesare to the people who work here.
And that's a story.
Love it.
We tell it, but we live it.
And I don't know if you and Italked about this before in 18 years, we're at 80 people now.
We've had nine people leave.
Yeah.
You know, having that storyout there and communicating it.
(25:53):
So people know it and, but thenliving it, that you can't just say the words, you have to live the words.
It makes a difference.
So, great conversation so far, andI don't wanna end it, but I wanna go kind of back to where we started a
little bit with this whole technicalexpert becoming leader at some level.
And so what are the roadblocksthat come into play?
How do we get past that?
(26:13):
How do we, you know, get to whereit's beneficial to the person becoming the leader and the firm itself?
Yeah, so we talked a little bit aboutfirst identifying what does the firm need, then looking at values and
how all that stuff aligns so thatwe're choosing the right people.
And then when you see, let's say that someof your listeners, they need to promote someone into a team leader or a manager
(26:36):
or a senior manager or whatever kind ofrole through the ranks, if you will, of leadership, and they have someone in mind.
That person is a really good technician.
They're a really good CPA or accountantor whatever their function is in the role.
Like what do we do then?
Mm-hmm.
A starting place for that for mewould be to call me crazy, but have a candid conversation with the person.
(27:01):
Oh, that's good.
It's just saying, Hey John,we've seen this about you.
We have a need and we're wondering.
Are you interested?
What do you think about?
Have you ever considered,what do you wanna do?
You know, there's so many ways youcan go with that conversation and just test it and find out, honestly.
Do you have a heart for people?
Yeah.
Do you prefer tech?
(27:22):
Do you just wanna stay in a, in anexpertise role, which, gosh, we need that.
Yeah, but we also need this.
And we're just tapping you tosee, hey, are you interested?
If they say yes and they wanna moveforward, I. I've seen literally hundreds
of people struggle with letting go ofthat identity as a technician expert.
(27:44):
An expert technician.
Mm-hmm.
And embracing the new identity of,I'm still really, really good at that,
and now my attention needs to shiftto influencing other technicians.
To make stronger results.
Now my job is to influence through othersversus being the technician myself.
(28:05):
And so it's a mindset shift.
And then there's alsoskillsets that need to shift.
Oftentimes letting goof control and trust.
Learning how to trust, learning how todelegate, learning how to communicate
and understand, ask questions ratherthan telling how to do things.
That's control.
(28:26):
So it usually starts with coachingor training or mentoring from someone else within the firm who has those
delegation, trust, relationshiplistening, letting go, competencies to really help that up and comer, if you
will, experience it, get some tacticaltraining on it, and then setting up.
(28:48):
Mentoring or scenarios, low riskscenarios in which they can begin to practice that without breaking the house.
Yeah, great advice.
And I was living my life, what you werejust saying there, because there's skills I don't have that I always thought this
was who I was and it took me a mindset,what you just said, a mindset shift.
(29:10):
A mindset changed to realizethis is where I needed to be.
And the one was managing partner.
I wasn't.
I really didn't, shouldn't havebeen, I didn't have the process
and the technology skills to reallymanage a firm, a growth firm.
I had the skills, a visionary.
I can start a firm, I can get it going.
And so I think that's the one thingthat maybe sometimes we miss, is that we can look to those technical.
(29:33):
Experts.
Experts as the leadership, but inreality, there's somebody that may
not be that technically sound that hasgreat leadership skills somewhere else.
And so as leaders ourselves in anorganization, we also have to have this
mindset of, yes, make sure we're opento the skillsets that everybody has.
And even though they may not be the mosttechnical expert in their organization.
(29:57):
They still, if we can identifythose other skills that they have
that could show that the leadershipis there in an area we need.
I think that's one that I think you askedme earlier is some things where we may be lacking or may not see through the clouds.
I don't know if you put it that way.
I. That's, I think, in everyorganization, not just accounting, where we sometimes probably miss
(30:18):
potential great leaders because theyweren't great at their current job.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You've said it well, and I do want to,and I hope you won't edit this out,
but I do wanna really say Bravo to youbecause the humility that it takes.
The confidence that it takes torealize I'm not an mp, that's not what I want, a managing partner.
(30:39):
I need to move in a differentdirection and look what it's done.
Yeah.
It's created this podcast and yourconference and the way that you are being a thought leader and a strategist
in the industry to kind of shake thingsup a little bit, and that's exactly what we're talking about, Randy, is that
when people are able to make that kindof a decision and have that awareness.
(31:01):
About where their expertiseis in the leadership vote.
Really phenomenal things can happenonce they feel the freedom to make those decisions or be challenged into a role.
Like we may see that someone has a lotof potential, but they're terrified.
But if we just affirm themand say, gosh, I trust us.
We see you've got this.
(31:22):
We can encourage someone into thatand we can also watch someone do what you did, which is to have the
humility and the confidence to say,no, I need to move in a different direction and make my impact this way.
So bravo to you, and I'm certainthat you're an inspiration to
other people to think differentlymindset about themselves.
So well done.
(31:43):
Well, thank you.
I get, uh, I don't know blush when Ihear that kind of stuff, but I did wanna say, 'cause one thing that you said
is there's been multiple people outthere where I knew they had a voice.
That was hidden inside them that theywere afraid to let out, and I almost feel
(32:04):
like I, and I didn't, but it almost feelslike I forced them to be on the podcast.
But I did because I knew that theyhad important things to share, and I've seen it more than once where,
not that I'm saying I did this,they did everything, but I just gave 'em on that platform to do it.
But I could just see.
A light bulb went off of them.
I was like, yeah, I can go outand I do have important things to say and I can share it.
(32:26):
So, all right.
Well enough about that.
Let's, let's move onbecause I, that was so fun.
Alright, so we're gonna have to wrap up.
I can keep going on this forever.
I never really realized I would enjoytalking about leadership so much.
'cause leadership, as you andI talked offline, leadership was always a scary word for me.
Mm-hmm.
And I didn't even realize that tillyou and I talked the first time, but this is such an interesting subject
(32:50):
because it's not, leadership is not whatI thought it was even two weeks ago.
It's a lot differentthan I thought it was.
So thank you for educating me on this.
But before we wrap up, there's acouple of questions I wanna ask
you and if you listen to episodes,you know this is coming I suppose.
So we all this leadership and whatpeople could do and opportunity.
(33:13):
When you're not talking leadership, whenyou're not out inspiring people to find
their leadership style or, or who, whatkind of leader they are, what do you do?
What's your outside of work passions?
What do you enjoy?
Oh gosh.
Couples well, a bunch of things.
Well, you know, we live in the Midwest.
I really do.
My husband and I love to get out intothe woods and walk nice and hike with,
(33:33):
get our boots on, lace up the boots andthe rougher the path the better for me.
I don't like to walk on paved.
I like rough stuff.
Yeah.
So we love to do that.
Where to?
Getting into spring here soon.
So we should be able to start doing that.
I have a very significantnumber of food sensitivities.
I'm a total geek on healthy cooking,allergy free cooking, and E. And I love to
(33:59):
cook and try to feel like a normal person,you know, with making food at home.
So that's a big part of my life,is healthy eating and trying to get outside and be healthy.
All right.
And then last couple of things beforewe went live, you, uh, I guess it wasn't live, it's, uh, recorded,
but before we started recording, youtold me you had an offer to give.
(34:21):
So let me let you explain what that is.
I do, absolutely.
I would love to, uh, help anyonewho's listening, uh, think about their own leadership bucket or.
Type or category as we talkedabout those four things.
So I've got a real easy one pager giveawaythat I would love to share with you
guys, and you can find that at the nameof my company is Effectivity Consulting.
(34:45):
I know it's a funky word, but so you canfind that at www.effectivity.consulting.
Which is E-F-F-E-C-T-I-V-I-T-Y.
Say that three times fast.
Yeah.
Slash unique.
All right.
And we'll put that on theshow notes too, so yeah.
(35:06):
Okay.
Yeah.
And you can download that and uh, justkind of think a little bit through your own style and where your strengths are.
Okay.
And then obviously they can getto the website pretty much the same address without the slash
Yep.
Effectivity consulting.
Uh, there's no.com, it's doconsulting and I'm also on LinkedIn so they can find me there.
(35:26):
LinkedIn as well.
Alright, well this is great.
I hope people do reach out and lookand see what's going on because there's a, uh, a pretty important thing,
especially well in all professions,but I'm passionate about accounting and especially in our profession.
I'm looking at that.
So thank you so much for being here today.
Thanks for having me.
And Randy, seriously, just bravo forall that you're doing in the industry.
(35:49):
Thank you.
Thank you for joining ustoday on the unique CPA.
You can find the show notes fortoday's episode and learn more about Tri-Merit at TheUniqueCPA.com.
Remember to subscribe andleave a five star rating on your favorite podcasting app.
And join us next time for more expertiseand insights on The Unique CPA.
(36:14):
Hey,
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