May 13, 2025 • 32 mins
Randy Crabtree goes in-house with Tri-Merit’s Barry Devine, a veteran in the specialty tax incentive space, on Episode 211 of The Unique CPA. Renewable energy tax credits have come to the forefront as a way for nonprofits to fund community-strengthening projects, and Barry pulls from his extensive experience in leveraging these credits and incentives to illustrate the incredible opportunities that are out there right now. Highlighting the impact of the Inflation Reduction Act on making these credits accessible to nonprofits, they discuss real-world examples Barry was a part of, including projects for the Boys and Girls Club of Dane County and a Minnesota hospital, while delving into the legislative landscape and future prospects for renewable energy incentives. Barry’s strong advice to CPAs on how to support their nonprofit clients in taking advantage of these lucrative credits is a must-listen.
Get the full show notes and more resources at TheUniqueCPA.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello, and welcome to The UniqueCPA with your host, Randy Crabtree.
(00:04):
We are committed to creating a thrivingcommunity of accounting professionals
who are physically and mentally healthy,fulfilled, and energized by their work.
Our ultimate goal is to elevatethe reputation of the accounting
profession and vastly improvethe lives of those in it.
The Unique CPA is broughtto you by Tri-Merit, the specialty tax professionals.
Today on The Unique CPA Podcast,we're diving into something that's both impactful and inspiring: how
(00:31):
not-for-profit organizations are tappinginto renewable energy tax incentives to fund projects that strengthen communities.
My guest, Barry Devine, has spentover 20 years in the specialty tax incentive space from R&D tax credits
to 179D, 45L Cost Segregation, and theoften maligned, but it was fun while it lasted, Employee Retention Credit.
(00:58):
Barry and I did a, uh, apodcast on this back in 21.
He and I got super excited on this.
Had a lot of fun.
Well, until, uh, some bad applescame in and started, uh, ruining the reputation of the play retention credit.
But now Barry's spending his time focusingon the renewable energy tax credits.
(01:19):
And honestly, we'll talk aboutthis, but about, and I'm probably stealing this thunder, but about 60%
of our clients that have been takingadvantage of the renewable energy tax credit have been nonprofits.
And that's why we'regonna discuss this today.
And besides digging into this, I'mhoping we have a little fun around along the way before I let Barry speak.
(01:39):
He and I actually just recorded awebinar today on a similar topic, and in the intro, I, I talked about how I
met Barry in, uh September of 2006, sowe're almost 19 years ago, Barry, we joke that Barry was working in the mail
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room at an R&D tax credit company, aplace that I went and spent a few months at before I decided to start Tri-Merit.
But I've known Barry quite awhile and we joke, not even a
joke, Barry taught me everythingI know about RD tax credit, Barry.
Welcome back to the show.
Thank you for having me back, Randy.
And I think, I thinkthey're actually both true.
(02:21):
We were talking about RD and I wasworking in the mail room, so there you go.
Here I am 19 years later.
Um, and, uh, but I actually, to getserious for a minute, I remember.
Back then being super impressedbecause you were working full-time
and working on your master's, Ithink full-time at the same time.
(02:43):
Yeah.
MBA.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
Um, yeah, that
was, that was interesting 'causeI was gonna, in the MBA program going for operations management,
project management, so learningabout budget and operating levels and supply chain and all this stuff.
And then.
Going and walking the manufacturingfloor for my RD clients.
So it was, uh, it was definitelya whole new world back then for me and learning quickly.
(03:07):
So
that, I mean, it's beena fun industry, I think.
You probably believe so.
Yes.
But I've, I'm old.
I've been around.
I just turned 63 on Friday.
I've been around a while.
I've done quite a few things, butI don't think I've ever had more
fun than I have had in the, uh,niche business of, of specialty tax.
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I wanna go back to employee retentioncredit for a second, because you and I, yeah, we pretty much started that
program from scratch, the serviceline, and I would say you probably did,
because I remember talking about it andI was getting super excited about it.
I was educating on it, but I didn't thinkwe had the ability to do it in house.
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And you were adamant about the fact.
Mm-hmm.
That this has to be done in-house.
We cannot outsource this.
And I remember the conversation was,well, if you wanna do it, build out the credit model and we'll get it going.
And I think that was a Friday,and by Monday I think you had the program up and running.
So I did.
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Yeah.
And the reason I brought that upis because that was super exciting.
And I remember one of the very, andyou probably remember this, one of the very first clients we ever worked on.
Was a nonprofit.
Mm-hmm.
And it was an organization that supportedindividuals with autism and they were like completely shut down during the pandemic,
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and I don't remember the numbers, but Ithink it was two to $300,000 that we were able to put back into this organization
through the employer retention creditthat they would then be able to help to invest back in, to help these kids.
It was that.
I literally cried when we did.
Yeah.
I just got goosebumpsremembering that client.
And you know, you wannatake care of your clients.
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And then even now, if there's any auditsor anything else, that's why bring it in-house is really the only way to go.
If you're gonna offer auditrepresentation, do it right.
Be the leaders in the industry, you know,be the ones actually following the laws.
And so now we're still helpingthose clients to make sure they're where they need to be.
But just funny saying,Hey, build this in-house.
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So we had ERC and all the knowhowand the in and like bring it in-house and how to do it.
Now the ERC kind of going toRETC, renewable energy tax credit.
It's a lot of the sameadministrative work.
And then again, reaching those in clients.
Man, I did get goosebumpswhen you mentioned that one.
'cause that was a pretty awesomeway to start that program.
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And I, I swear, I
think that might have been our first call.
Yeah, it was.
And, and you and me and Danny.
I think were all on that call.
And I remember the, the two women,I can like picture them right now.
Yep.
On that zoom call that we had.
And so the reason I broughtthat up is because now.
That passion that you showed there isflowing through into the renewable energy Again, where you said, you told me, but
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I said at the beginning, 60% of whatwe've been doing is that for nonprofits.
So let's talk about the, you know,hey, this whole journey, you've
had R&D and all these differentservices and what's changed now?
What's new?
So how did you get super excited aboutrenewable energy and then how did that delve into the nonprofit space?
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I didn't really think about it untilyou mentioned ERC, because ERC was probably the stepping stone or the
precursor to actually even think aboutdoing renewable energy tax credits and the renewable energy space.
I was thinking it's the first time Idealt with not-for-profits, but now
that you remind me, we had a lot ofnot-for-profits with with ERC, so.
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It's not really that new, but Imean to back up a little bit, right?
Yeah.
Like we've both made our careerson the RD tax credit, right?
My beloved, like I love the RD tax credit.
My favorite story is that myvery first study I flew to San
Diego, had no idea where I wasgoing or what I was doing, right?
I got hired to work in the mail room,don't forget, and like we sew up at
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Taylor Guitars and Bob Taylor comes outand is like, Hey, you want a tourist?
See how these guitars are made?
Like.
So for the last, you know, 20 yearsof seeing how things are made, what's new product, a process, helping a
mom and pop shop save money on taxesto hire more people, going into like
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helping startups, like that was thefeel good side of the RD tax credit.
And then of course the ERC transition.
With helping the individualsthat support autism and then R&D.
Unfortunately, the 1 74 amortization hadtaken a hit and being in a tough spot,
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it was just time to shift and open upour service offerings and look for more.
So that was the end of 2022 when theInflation Reduction Act was signed.
Not that I like, read all 900 pagesimmediately, but pretty much started
looking into it and said, okay,this is going to have the same.
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Path for the for-profits, of course,with being able to sell it, but also the not-for-profits to be able to
take advantage to have cheaper energyor free energy or off the grid in order to meet their other goals.
And maybe we can be a part of that.
So I think that's.
How that started.
Yeah.
Well, let's dig into that a little bitbecause there's been incentives out there in the past, even before the inflation
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reduction Act, but it, from a nonprofitstandpoint, the incentives didn't exist.
I mean, you're, they'renot a tax paying entity.
It's not something thatthey could use a tax credit.
How all of a sudden are wetalking about tax credits?
Yeah, with the nonprofit entity.
Yeah.
So we, we promised not to get technicalon this call, so if I say 64, 17, you can just stop me, but like basically
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the power of the inflation reduction actwas what you call maybe the last mile or the utilization of the tax credit.
So on the RD side, right, you'vealways had to be a taxable entity.
To offset your tax or you don'tuse it, or they created it for, if
you're a qualified small business,you can offset your payroll tax.
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So the monetization or the usabilityhas always been a bit of an issue.
So what the Inflation Reduction Act saidwas, you know, there's gonna be two paths.
If you're a for-profit company,you're a taxpayer, you got two options, use the credit.
Sell it to an unknown party.
If you're a not-for-profit entity, whichthey call applicable entities, which are also municipalities, tribal, you know,
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governments, government, instrumentalitiesof government, and any not-for-profit.
If you fall under what they callapplicable entity, it's refundable.
It's literally, they call it elective pay,but it is a check back from the government for investment in renewable energy.
Now all of a sudden, a not-for-profit.
(10:06):
Yep.
For the first time probably is lookingat these type of projects because the
return on investment has shrunk somuch because these credits can be.
And now I'm getting technical.
Yeah, but these credits canbe anywhere from, what is it?
It's 6% to as high as 70%of the in cost invested.
70%.
Yeah.
That's a percentage of thequalified capital spend too.
(10:30):
Yep.
Which is like all of your costs.
So very lucrative credits.
Yeah.
And then the benefit is not onlyjust, hey, you know, hey, I just
spent a million dollars and hey,I qualified for a 50% credit.
I get $500,000 back.
Okay, well I'm still outof pocket 500 grand, right?
Well, yeah.
And now as a nonprofit,I'm not gonna deduct that.
It's not the preschool oranything, but the benefit is now.
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I don't have energy costs going forwardand that return on investment for these energy costs is probably shrunk
to a point in time where, I mean,what do you think in that scenario?
You know, five years you have morethan break even, or what do you think?
I mean, do you have an idea?
Yeah,
no, I mean, it depends on whattechnology they put in, how much energy it's producing.
Yeah.
How much.
Their energy usage is, but like ifyou go geothermal is a very, it's a fantastic technology to use.
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It's a low maintenance cost going forward.
And heats and cools are buildingbasically for free, just to boil it down.
So if they're putting solar, itjust depends on, you know, how many panels where they put it.
But yeah, they can go off grid and lower.
Operating costs.
So I think the Inflation reduction Actand you know, I mean there has been a lot of the last 25 years there's
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been a lot of changes in environmentallegislation and tax credits and solar credits and, but they've just really
never penciled out with some of these,like you were just saying, the ROI that.
20 years, 10 years, 15 years.
So now if you're getting 30 to 50% paidback in the year, you install it, just shortens it down to a couple of years.
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And then the not-for-profitgoes the operational expenses.
Drop either significantly or to zero.
All right.
All right.
So, so I mentioned earlier, whichprobably could have been confusing,
that we got a credit anywherefrom six to as high as 70%.
So what, you know, people may belistening to us go, okay, well yeah, 6%, I'm not gonna get excited about that.
So, right.
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So what is really the, theway we get to a higher credit.
Yeah, so I mean six six is the minimumtax credit and a lot of people, if they say, oh, I get an ITC, which just
very quickly, ITC is the investment taxcredit, meaning I install this year.
I want my credit right now, thereis something called a PTC Production
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Tax Credit, which means I'm gonnagenerate electricity and sell it.
And get a credit every yearover the next 10 years.
So most of what we're talking aboutare the ITC investment tax credit.
So in the industry you're gonnahear, oh, they're 30% tax credits.
They are 30% tax credits if you startedbefore a certain date, or if you're under one megawatt, you're 30% tax credit.
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Or if you meet what's called prevailingwage and apprenticeship requirements.
So if you're over one megawattand don't meet the prevailing wage, it's a 6% credit.
But generally, we'retalking about 30% credits.
Anything under onemegawatt is standard 30%,
so we're starting at a baselineat 30% for most taxpayers.
For most taxpayers.
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Well, okay, and then, so then we said 70.
So what are these kickers?
What are these add-onsthat we should know?
Yeah,
yeah, they're called, they're bonusadder or bonus credits, and there's
three of them that are, the first oneis called domestic content, right?
So domestic manufacturing supply chain.
We wanna support domesticmanufacturing, right?
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We know from covid like the.
Supply chain's not great, right?
We, we saw it inaction.
So what we wanna do is a bipartisan, itjust, they go a lot of different ways,
but everybody wants domestic content,domestic manufacturing, domestic jobs.
So the first one.
It's 40% or there's some rules aroundit, but if the componentry of your project meet the domestic content
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requirements, you get a 10% adder andit's 10% of the whole qualified basis.
So if you have a million dollars, 30%credit, it's not 10% of the credit.
It's 10% of the cost.
So now we're at
40%.
Yeah.
So a million dollars, you have a $300,000credit, now you have a $400,000 credit.
Got it.
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The second one is if you're an energycommunity where you're located, if you're a brownfield, you know, coal
mine closure, metropolitans, statisticalareas, there's a few requirements.
But if you're in an energy community,it's another 10, so now you're at five.
That's the 50%, $500,000 credit.
And then the third one is calledlow income community, in which you can get 10 or 20% depending on.
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Where you're located and the type oforganization, so that would go from 50,
60 to 70, so that would be the max creditof 70%, so extremely lucrative credits.
And again, not just the credit,but now your energy cost are
yes, either
gone to zero or significantly shrunk.
So you're continuingthen to recoup this cost.
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So, you know, we talkedabout at the beginning.
Okay, so that's the mechanics.
We did do a little technical but not bad.
We talked about themechanics of it a little bit.
The 70% you had mentioned that it'sthe cost investment in the project and investment tax credit, ITC.
But at the beginning we said,yeah, this has been rewarding too.
'cause we're helping nonprofits, we'reseeing them doing some really cool things.
(15:44):
And I know you havesome pretty cool stories
Yeah.
Of nonprofits that you'veseen us help so far.
You wanna go into those?
I do.
I do.
They're a little bit allover the board, but like.
Just the big pictures, like wework with churches, schools, municipalities, community centers,
housing authority, so there's a lotof different areas we work with.
(16:08):
Like for example, just before, thebig example I wanna say is like a church in Texas who put up solar and.
No idea what a 990 or990-T is, or a tax credit.
So just so over the moon that we'regonna help 'em get this credit and walk them through the whole process.
So church, solar panels andTri-Merit has a value in that process, so that's really good.
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One of the examples Idid wanna highlight was.
The technology is geothermaland it's the Boys and Girls Club of Dane County in Wisconsin.
And so they put in themultimillion dollar geothermal.
So it's a geothermal heat pump, right?
This is where you bore holes, drillinto the ground, use the heat in the cool, in the winter, in the summer, and.
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You can heat and cool your buildingbasically for free using Wow, the temperature of the earth, right?
So it's a tried and true technology.
It's really good.
But when we got into it, they alsolike, they just needed help with
like, we don't know what qualifies,what do you mean there's a tax cut?
How does all this work?
So we did all the technical calculationand then come to find out like, look clean Wisconsin is like just a little.
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Coalition that helps not-for-profitsinstall renewable energy.
So they did a highlight of this projectand when you start looking at it, the Boys and Girls Club added a youth program.
It's like a training center.
They, they call it the training centerfor the next generation of trades people.
So all the young kids are comingin and learning tools of the trade and about the industry.
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And what they did is theyput a really big window.
Into the mechanicalroom of the geothermal.
So these kids are learning and you just,you look through the window and I mean, there's pipes and tubes and pumps and
Wow.
You know, they're learning whatit might be like to be architect, construction engineer, consultant.
Maybe one or two of them will beinterested in being a CPA and you know, like, hey, they don't have any
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numbers in there, but like they canjust kind of see how this works and
this tube goes into the ground andwhen it's cold, it grabs the heat.
When it's hot, it cools.
And so it was just awesome becausemeeting with the Boys and Girls Club.
They have a mission and for this newfacility, their mission is training the next generation and having a community
where youth can go and learn and likethey don't know about tax credit.
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So to come in and just be thatone part, you know, one cog in the wheel to make it all happen with the
engineer and the construction andboys and girls club can now go do their mission and have this happen.
So it was, it was just kind of touchingto see that, you know, we're at least part of that community in a, in a small way.
Nice.
Yeah, that's, it is rewarding.
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Yeah.
And that's pretty cool.
Yeah, I got a big smile, that's for sure.
Yeah.
One other example, just like a wholekind of different scenario, but there's a hospital up in Minnesota and they
have this like really big operation,so there's a lot of like waste heat.
So they did a, like a combined heatand power system, which combined heat and power qualifies as well.
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So they're taking waste, heat,steam, and generating electricity,
and they're actually selling it at adiscount to the hospital next to them.
So just like some of these renewableenergy, you know, the technologies
are like, well, you have a lotof heat leaving your building.
Well, we can just.
Turn that into energy and plug itinto your neighbor and like, so
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it's really kind of cool like seeinghow a lot of these things work.
And again, we're just one piece ofthe puzzle to come in and say, I can help you maximize your tax credit,
walk you through the filing process,offer you audit representation in case the IRS ask questions.
We're here.
So again, it's just like similar to,you know, our R&D beloved RD tax credit.
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You get to see how.
Engineering Right.
Can actually change the world for good.
So, you know, it feelsgood to be part of it.
Alright, so I've gotta bring this up.
You know we're sitting here right nowexpecting a new tax bill sometime in 2025.
Yeah.
We're not sure what's gonna happen.
We did see some executive orderscome out earlier in the year where.
(20:14):
It looked like maybe it washaving an impact on these credits.
I don't think it really is, but sowhere do we sit legislative wise?
Where do we sit credit wise?
Is there, hey, we're all systems go?
Yeah.
Or, or what's happening right now?
Yeah, so a few different answers for that.
The first one is just to clarify thatthe ITCs, we talked about it, ITCs, PTCs.
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The elective paying the transferability,they're all tax code, right?
They're all statutory, so they're there.
So if you're moving dirt and you'replacing in service this year, you're more than likely going to be good.
Okay?
Right.
It to be somethingprospectively, hopefully.
So on that statutory side, wedon't know what it'll take an act of Congress to change it.
(20:57):
So.
Maybe not.
We don't know.
On the funding side, right, theappropriations, the discretionary
spending, a lot of that ison hold and under review.
So we don't know.
A lot of it is allocated,A lot of it's not.
It's just hard to know rightnow and we'll see going forward.
But I mean, the new administration'spolicy, like maybe they don't like climate change and greenhouse gas.
(21:21):
And this other stuff, butthey do like energy, right?
It's an all energy policy.
They want the most affordable andfastest energy they can get of all forms.
So I don't wanna say that I'mtrolling Chris Wright, the head of DOE, but I, I do watch every time
he speaks, I listen because I followhim on YouTube, which he's doing a great job, but he's from Colorado.
(21:44):
He's a Colorado guy.
And so one of the things.
We do or we look for, is like we dogeothermal technology and we've gotten really good at calculating geothermal and.
And like if you go to the DOE'S websiteand you go under geothermal, they have
a geothermal office that just says, thisis all the great things about geothermal.
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Not 'cause we drill into the ground,which is, you know, but like there's,
like, for example, there's companiesthat are taking old oil rigs, right?
And just converting themto geothermal energy pumps.
So they're trying to justrepurpose, refurbish.
So, I mean, I think.
Since it's an all energy policy, a lotof the climate twist will go away, but I don't see the ITCs really going away.
(22:32):
There might be a change, andalso it's been kind of loosely I.
Estimated that 75 to 80% of the growth ordollars from the Inflation reduction Act are in red states from the last election.
So there's gonna be constituents andpeople in, you know, there's gonna be big companies saying something and a lot
(22:55):
of small businesses saying something,and the new administration's gonna listen, and I think it's gonna be good.
So,
yeah, that's what I'm hearing too.
I think this will stay in maybe somesmall changes here and there, but there's a lot of money being invested.
Yes,
yes.
In this at this point, thatisn't being invested because there's some incentives as well.
Other reasons too, but out there.
(23:17):
Yeah.
So we don't know for sure wherethings are going, but things sound like a positive standpoint.
There's money being invested,like we just said, but.
There's some cool thingsgoing on out there too.
I know you mentioned somethingto me about geothermal.
You just talked about geothermaland some like collegiate competition around geothermal.
What's that all about?
Yeah, so I mean really it's kind ofbridging the gap between like, hey, here's, here's technology and then here's
(23:43):
legislation, and then like here's maybethe the taxpayer ultimate user and like how do all these things come together?
How do we actually install geothermal?
So one of, there was a 2024geothermal collegiate competition in.
There's like a, you know, award moneyfor first, second, third place, but Yep.
When I was reading it, what I foundreally interesting about it was there was two different competition tracks.
(24:08):
One is the technical track, right?
These teams, these colleges and thestudents that are learning about the technology and the resource assessment
and the design and the geothermalsystem and all of that other stuff.
But then the other track wascalled the policy track, which I thought was really interesting.
You know, so it's, it, I mean,it's focused on, you know, the analysis like for the regulatory
(24:31):
environment, the economic assessment,workforce development analysis.
Wow.
Like when you, so even looking at theinflation reduction act, and I mean bipartisan support on workforce every,
everybody's looking to create jobs, butjust getting like, okay, here's a piece of legislation and here is some technology.
Here's the colleges that wantto compete on design, and then how does that get implemented?
(24:56):
Not only from a technology resourcestance, but who's gonna build it?
Where's it gonna go?
How are we gonna get it?
Is there a tax credit for that?
Like, you know, and likehow do we get buy-in?
How do communities resource people?
How do you.
The workforce development wasinteresting because with the Inflation Reduction Act, one of the other
programs we did was the 48 Cap C, theAdvanced Manufacturing Energy Program.
(25:20):
And under it, you know, the applicationsrequired a big workforce development plan, so we also got to learn a lot about, okay.
If you're gonna ask the governmentfor this money and you're gonna
go build this facility that'sgoing to add to the supply chain.
We like all of that, but we're gonna giveyou money if we know you're gonna find the people, hire the people, train the
(25:43):
people, have them work under prevailingwage and apprenticeship requirements.
And so just seeing the implementation ofit is also very cool on how that works.
So that was very interesting.
I thought just from.
Why not get these students involved?
They love the technology, they lovethe design of it, but soon as they
graduate college and leave that bubbleand get in the real world, guess what?
(26:05):
Then they're gonna have tolearn the politics of getting your, you know, geothermal unit.
You know, you gotta, you got theenvironmental agencies, you got the
state regulators, you got permitting,like all these other things.
And then the workforcecommunity with the buy-in.
So it's.
It's been cool learning aboutall this other stuff too.
(26:26):
Yep.
Lot of intertwinedthings going intertwined.
Yep,
for sure.
Alright, so obviously yes, everything, wesee this whole intertwining of government
and education and workforce and everythingthat you just mentioned out there.
Now being the Unique CPA Podcast,obviously we have people on the
accounting, tax and accountingfields listening to this.
(26:47):
What if they're, you know, thinking.
Uh, I don't know what I'm supposed to do.
Am I, do I need reachout to my nonprofits?
How do I know if they're doing something?
What's next steps?
Should I have people?
Yeah.
You know, what's advice would yougive to the advisors out there then?
Yeah.
Well, interestingly enough, in allof our CPA channel partners, for the
(27:07):
last 20 years, we've been knocking onthe door of the tax department, right?
So the not-for-profit and the audit side.
They don't get Barry calling themafter every tax season, but the
main thing is one, if, I mean,if they can ask the question of.
What are you doing?
You don't really have to knowwhat qualifies for renewable energy, but any improvement.
(27:29):
Yes, like any project they're workingon, just pretend it qualifies because you bring it in and more than likely it will.
But just asking, because like you'vesaid, you don't always do tax planning with a not-for-profit entity, right?
Right.
Oh yeah.
So one is having thatfirst conversation, but.
I would say the next steps, themost critical steps are timing.
(27:53):
What is the placed in servicedate of the actual asset of the renewable energy asset?
And then what is the tax return deadline?
Because when it comes to electivepay, you can't amend, you have to do it on open return.
Wow.
Okay.
And yeah, and the governmentgave a six month extension, and that ended at the end of 2024.
So if you do hear of a project.
(28:15):
Immediate thing is when is itthey call a PTO permission to operate or PIS placed in service?
Like, when is this?
You know, when's, when's it turned on?
Turned on.
Alright.
That whenever it's turned on, it startsgenerating renewable energy is the date.
And then so that next year end.
(28:35):
Is when they'll have to file the 990-T.
So that would be the most critical.
Yep.
So just be aware of it.
Yep.
Talk to 'em, see ifthey're doing anything.
Don't even ask if they're doinga renewable energy project.
Are you doing anyimprovements on your property?
Right.
Because then we can seeif they're renewable.
Okay.
So, so.
If anybody is curious, wants to knowmore, has a question, where's the best place for them to reach out to you
(29:00):
on LinkedIn?
X?
Yeah.
Not Facebook, but I guessI'm dating myself there.
I am open for any phone call ordiscussion or even I, we just had a question the other day from a CPA that
just, you know, the 3468 to 3800 to990-T, something wasn't jiving and, and I we're just like, I. Said Nick.
(29:22):
Nick is our CFO for the listeners, youknow, Nick and I have just helped him
with that answer and it just helpedus learn more also right about right.
You know, like, don't forgetnow I can pass this on as the knowledge of getting there.
So for us, I guess she reminded me that wedid have some, you know, experience with
not-for-profits, but still a lot of, alot of these things are a little bit new.
(29:45):
Because of, you know, some,there's lot not-for-profits that don't file 990s at all.
So what do they do?
Right?
They can pick a year endand they need a 990-T.
So any questions anyone has, we wouldlove to answer 'em or get in front of any
either technical issue or administrativeissue as well, just to help us get better.
Yep.
And at the Tri-Merit websitethere's contact information, uh mm-hmm to reach out.
(30:09):
And so that'll get routed to Barry or thecorrect person if there is any questions.
Barry, I don't wanna end the, thepodcast without doing my normal question at the end of each podcast.
And you probably answered thisbefore since you are a repeat guest.
But hey, I can tell you'resuper passionate about tax credits and incentives.
I've known this for almost 19 years now.
(30:32):
But when you're not outworking, doing this, what is your outside of work passions?
What do you enjoy doing?
Well, when it's snowing, I'mnormally not in the office.
Um, I think, you know, that I, yes, loveto ski, but also now that it's thawing
out my actual, I could, my fishingpole is right here next to my desk.
Uh.
(30:53):
But any, anything in themountains is where you'll find me.
If it's snowing or a beautiful day, I'mmore than likely skiing or in the river.
So,
all right.
That's what, and is it afly fishing rod next to you?
It is a fly fishing rod.
It's, that's what I figured.
Nine foot five weightFor anyone that knows.
What that means.
(31:14):
That's what the standardColorado tool is at nine five.
Nice.
We're recording on May 6th.
I think this will be releasedpretty quick, so I will let people
know that Barry will be speakingat Bridging the Gap conference.
Yep.
Talking about renewal,but energy tax credits.
It is in Colorado, Denver, so maybehe'll even bring his nine foot five or whatever you just called it.
(31:37):
Yeah.
Fly Run.
Yep.
Then you could show other people that.
So, and if anybody wants anyinformation on Bridging the Gap, it's BTG conference.com.
We'll put that in the show notes.
We'll have a great time there, and Barrywill be one of our featured speakers in our tax track at the conference.
So, Barry, thank you so much for, uh.
The information you shared and thepassion you showed on this, uh, renewable energy for nonprofits discussion.
(32:01):
Yeah.
Thank you so much forhaving me again, Randy.
Thank you for joining ustoday on the unique CPA.
You can find the show notes fortoday's episode and learn more about Tri-Merit at TheUniqueCPA.com.
Remember to subscribe andleave a five star rating on your favorite podcasting app.
(32:21):
And join us next time for more expertiseand insights on the unique cpa.
Hey,
professional productions.net.
Hello, and welcome to The UniqueCPA with your host, Randy Crabtree.
(00:04):
We are committed to creating a thrivingcommunity of accounting professionals
who are physically and mentally healthy,fulfilled, and energized by their work.
Our ultimate goal is to elevatethe reputation of the accounting
profession and vastly improvethe lives of those in it.
The Unique CPA is broughtto you by Tri-Merit, the specialty tax professionals.
Today on The Unique CPA Podcast,we're diving into something that's both impactful and inspiring: how
(00:31):
not-for-profit organizations are tappinginto renewable energy tax incentives to fund projects that strengthen communities.
My guest, Barry Devine, has spentover 20 years in the specialty tax incentive space from R&D tax credits
to 179D, 45L Cost Segregation, and theoften maligned, but it was fun while it lasted, Employee Retention Credit.
(00:58):
Barry and I did a, uh, apodcast on this back in 21.
He and I got super excited on this.
Had a lot of fun.
Well, until, uh, some bad applescame in and started, uh, ruining the reputation of the play retention credit.
But now Barry's spending his time focusingon the renewable energy tax credits.
(01:19):
And honestly, we'll talk aboutthis, but about, and I'm probably stealing this thunder, but about 60%
of our clients that have been takingadvantage of the renewable energy tax credit have been nonprofits.
And that's why we'regonna discuss this today.
And besides digging into this, I'mhoping we have a little fun around along the way before I let Barry speak.
(01:39):
He and I actually just recorded awebinar today on a similar topic, and in the intro, I, I talked about how I
met Barry in, uh September of 2006, sowe're almost 19 years ago, Barry, we joke that Barry was working in the mail
(01:59):
room at an R&D tax credit company, aplace that I went and spent a few months at before I decided to start Tri-Merit.
But I've known Barry quite awhile and we joke, not even a
joke, Barry taught me everythingI know about RD tax credit, Barry.
Welcome back to the show.
Thank you for having me back, Randy.
And I think, I thinkthey're actually both true.
(02:21):
We were talking about RD and I wasworking in the mail room, so there you go.
Here I am 19 years later.
Um, and, uh, but I actually, to getserious for a minute, I remember.
Back then being super impressedbecause you were working full-time
and working on your master's, Ithink full-time at the same time.
(02:43):
Yeah.
MBA.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
Um, yeah, that
was, that was interesting 'causeI was gonna, in the MBA program going for operations management,
project management, so learningabout budget and operating levels and supply chain and all this stuff.
And then.
Going and walking the manufacturingfloor for my RD clients.
So it was, uh, it was definitelya whole new world back then for me and learning quickly.
(03:07):
So
that, I mean, it's beena fun industry, I think.
You probably believe so.
Yes.
But I've, I'm old.
I've been around.
I just turned 63 on Friday.
I've been around a while.
I've done quite a few things, butI don't think I've ever had more
fun than I have had in the, uh,niche business of, of specialty tax.
(03:27):
I wanna go back to employee retentioncredit for a second, because you and I, yeah, we pretty much started that
program from scratch, the serviceline, and I would say you probably did,
because I remember talking about it andI was getting super excited about it.
I was educating on it, but I didn't thinkwe had the ability to do it in house.
(03:50):
And you were adamant about the fact.
Mm-hmm.
That this has to be done in-house.
We cannot outsource this.
And I remember the conversation was,well, if you wanna do it, build out the credit model and we'll get it going.
And I think that was a Friday,and by Monday I think you had the program up and running.
So I did.
(04:10):
Yeah.
And the reason I brought that upis because that was super exciting.
And I remember one of the very, andyou probably remember this, one of the very first clients we ever worked on.
Was a nonprofit.
Mm-hmm.
And it was an organization that supportedindividuals with autism and they were like completely shut down during the pandemic,
(04:31):
and I don't remember the numbers, but Ithink it was two to $300,000 that we were able to put back into this organization
through the employer retention creditthat they would then be able to help to invest back in, to help these kids.
It was that.
I literally cried when we did.
Yeah.
I just got goosebumpsremembering that client.
And you know, you wannatake care of your clients.
(04:52):
And then even now, if there's any auditsor anything else, that's why bring it in-house is really the only way to go.
If you're gonna offer auditrepresentation, do it right.
Be the leaders in the industry, you know,be the ones actually following the laws.
And so now we're still helpingthose clients to make sure they're where they need to be.
But just funny saying,Hey, build this in-house.
(05:13):
So we had ERC and all the knowhowand the in and like bring it in-house and how to do it.
Now the ERC kind of going toRETC, renewable energy tax credit.
It's a lot of the sameadministrative work.
And then again, reaching those in clients.
Man, I did get goosebumpswhen you mentioned that one.
'cause that was a pretty awesomeway to start that program.
(05:35):
And I, I swear, I
think that might have been our first call.
Yeah, it was.
And, and you and me and Danny.
I think were all on that call.
And I remember the, the two women,I can like picture them right now.
Yep.
On that zoom call that we had.
And so the reason I broughtthat up is because now.
That passion that you showed there isflowing through into the renewable energy Again, where you said, you told me, but
(06:00):
I said at the beginning, 60% of whatwe've been doing is that for nonprofits.
So let's talk about the, you know,hey, this whole journey, you've
had R&D and all these differentservices and what's changed now?
What's new?
So how did you get super excited aboutrenewable energy and then how did that delve into the nonprofit space?
(06:21):
I didn't really think about it untilyou mentioned ERC, because ERC was probably the stepping stone or the
precursor to actually even think aboutdoing renewable energy tax credits and the renewable energy space.
I was thinking it's the first time Idealt with not-for-profits, but now
that you remind me, we had a lot ofnot-for-profits with with ERC, so.
(06:43):
It's not really that new, but Imean to back up a little bit, right?
Yeah.
Like we've both made our careerson the RD tax credit, right?
My beloved, like I love the RD tax credit.
My favorite story is that myvery first study I flew to San
Diego, had no idea where I wasgoing or what I was doing, right?
I got hired to work in the mail room,don't forget, and like we sew up at
(07:06):
Taylor Guitars and Bob Taylor comes outand is like, Hey, you want a tourist?
See how these guitars are made?
Like.
So for the last, you know, 20 yearsof seeing how things are made, what's new product, a process, helping a
mom and pop shop save money on taxesto hire more people, going into like
(07:26):
helping startups, like that was thefeel good side of the RD tax credit.
And then of course the ERC transition.
With helping the individualsthat support autism and then R&D.
Unfortunately, the 1 74 amortization hadtaken a hit and being in a tough spot,
(07:46):
it was just time to shift and open upour service offerings and look for more.
So that was the end of 2022 when theInflation Reduction Act was signed.
Not that I like, read all 900 pagesimmediately, but pretty much started
looking into it and said, okay,this is going to have the same.
(08:09):
Path for the for-profits, of course,with being able to sell it, but also the not-for-profits to be able to
take advantage to have cheaper energyor free energy or off the grid in order to meet their other goals.
And maybe we can be a part of that.
So I think that's.
How that started.
Yeah.
Well, let's dig into that a little bitbecause there's been incentives out there in the past, even before the inflation
(08:31):
reduction Act, but it, from a nonprofitstandpoint, the incentives didn't exist.
I mean, you're, they'renot a tax paying entity.
It's not something thatthey could use a tax credit.
How all of a sudden are wetalking about tax credits?
Yeah, with the nonprofit entity.
Yeah.
So we, we promised not to get technicalon this call, so if I say 64, 17, you can just stop me, but like basically
(08:58):
the power of the inflation reduction actwas what you call maybe the last mile or the utilization of the tax credit.
So on the RD side, right, you'vealways had to be a taxable entity.
To offset your tax or you don'tuse it, or they created it for, if
you're a qualified small business,you can offset your payroll tax.
(09:18):
So the monetization or the usabilityhas always been a bit of an issue.
So what the Inflation Reduction Act saidwas, you know, there's gonna be two paths.
If you're a for-profit company,you're a taxpayer, you got two options, use the credit.
Sell it to an unknown party.
If you're a not-for-profit entity, whichthey call applicable entities, which are also municipalities, tribal, you know,
(09:46):
governments, government, instrumentalitiesof government, and any not-for-profit.
If you fall under what they callapplicable entity, it's refundable.
It's literally, they call it elective pay,but it is a check back from the government for investment in renewable energy.
Now all of a sudden, a not-for-profit.
(10:06):
Yep.
For the first time probably is lookingat these type of projects because the
return on investment has shrunk somuch because these credits can be.
And now I'm getting technical.
Yeah, but these credits canbe anywhere from, what is it?
It's 6% to as high as 70%of the in cost invested.
70%.
Yeah.
That's a percentage of thequalified capital spend too.
(10:30):
Yep.
Which is like all of your costs.
So very lucrative credits.
Yeah.
And then the benefit is not onlyjust, hey, you know, hey, I just
spent a million dollars and hey,I qualified for a 50% credit.
I get $500,000 back.
Okay, well I'm still outof pocket 500 grand, right?
Well, yeah.
And now as a nonprofit,I'm not gonna deduct that.
It's not the preschool oranything, but the benefit is now.
(10:53):
I don't have energy costs going forwardand that return on investment for these energy costs is probably shrunk
to a point in time where, I mean,what do you think in that scenario?
You know, five years you have morethan break even, or what do you think?
I mean, do you have an idea?
Yeah,
no, I mean, it depends on whattechnology they put in, how much energy it's producing.
Yeah.
How much.
Their energy usage is, but like ifyou go geothermal is a very, it's a fantastic technology to use.
(11:18):
It's a low maintenance cost going forward.
And heats and cools are buildingbasically for free, just to boil it down.
So if they're putting solar, itjust depends on, you know, how many panels where they put it.
But yeah, they can go off grid and lower.
Operating costs.
So I think the Inflation reduction Actand you know, I mean there has been a lot of the last 25 years there's
(11:42):
been a lot of changes in environmentallegislation and tax credits and solar credits and, but they've just really
never penciled out with some of these,like you were just saying, the ROI that.
20 years, 10 years, 15 years.
So now if you're getting 30 to 50% paidback in the year, you install it, just shortens it down to a couple of years.
(12:04):
And then the not-for-profitgoes the operational expenses.
Drop either significantly or to zero.
All right.
All right.
So, so I mentioned earlier, whichprobably could have been confusing,
that we got a credit anywherefrom six to as high as 70%.
So what, you know, people may belistening to us go, okay, well yeah, 6%, I'm not gonna get excited about that.
So, right.
(12:24):
So what is really the, theway we get to a higher credit.
Yeah, so I mean six six is the minimumtax credit and a lot of people, if they say, oh, I get an ITC, which just
very quickly, ITC is the investment taxcredit, meaning I install this year.
I want my credit right now, thereis something called a PTC Production
(12:45):
Tax Credit, which means I'm gonnagenerate electricity and sell it.
And get a credit every yearover the next 10 years.
So most of what we're talking aboutare the ITC investment tax credit.
So in the industry you're gonnahear, oh, they're 30% tax credits.
They are 30% tax credits if you startedbefore a certain date, or if you're under one megawatt, you're 30% tax credit.
(13:10):
Or if you meet what's called prevailingwage and apprenticeship requirements.
So if you're over one megawattand don't meet the prevailing wage, it's a 6% credit.
But generally, we'retalking about 30% credits.
Anything under onemegawatt is standard 30%,
so we're starting at a baselineat 30% for most taxpayers.
For most taxpayers.
(13:31):
Well, okay, and then, so then we said 70.
So what are these kickers?
What are these add-onsthat we should know?
Yeah,
yeah, they're called, they're bonusadder or bonus credits, and there's
three of them that are, the first oneis called domestic content, right?
So domestic manufacturing supply chain.
We wanna support domesticmanufacturing, right?
(13:53):
We know from covid like the.
Supply chain's not great, right?
We, we saw it inaction.
So what we wanna do is a bipartisan, itjust, they go a lot of different ways,
but everybody wants domestic content,domestic manufacturing, domestic jobs.
So the first one.
It's 40% or there's some rules aroundit, but if the componentry of your project meet the domestic content
(14:16):
requirements, you get a 10% adder andit's 10% of the whole qualified basis.
So if you have a million dollars, 30%credit, it's not 10% of the credit.
It's 10% of the cost.
So now we're at
40%.
Yeah.
So a million dollars, you have a $300,000credit, now you have a $400,000 credit.
Got it.
(14:36):
The second one is if you're an energycommunity where you're located, if you're a brownfield, you know, coal
mine closure, metropolitans, statisticalareas, there's a few requirements.
But if you're in an energy community,it's another 10, so now you're at five.
That's the 50%, $500,000 credit.
And then the third one is calledlow income community, in which you can get 10 or 20% depending on.
(15:02):
Where you're located and the type oforganization, so that would go from 50,
60 to 70, so that would be the max creditof 70%, so extremely lucrative credits.
And again, not just the credit,but now your energy cost are
yes, either
gone to zero or significantly shrunk.
So you're continuingthen to recoup this cost.
(15:23):
So, you know, we talkedabout at the beginning.
Okay, so that's the mechanics.
We did do a little technical but not bad.
We talked about themechanics of it a little bit.
The 70% you had mentioned that it'sthe cost investment in the project and investment tax credit, ITC.
But at the beginning we said,yeah, this has been rewarding too.
'cause we're helping nonprofits, we'reseeing them doing some really cool things.
(15:44):
And I know you havesome pretty cool stories
Yeah.
Of nonprofits that you'veseen us help so far.
You wanna go into those?
I do.
I do.
They're a little bit allover the board, but like.
Just the big pictures, like wework with churches, schools, municipalities, community centers,
housing authority, so there's a lotof different areas we work with.
(16:08):
Like for example, just before, thebig example I wanna say is like a church in Texas who put up solar and.
No idea what a 990 or990-T is, or a tax credit.
So just so over the moon that we'regonna help 'em get this credit and walk them through the whole process.
So church, solar panels andTri-Merit has a value in that process, so that's really good.
(16:31):
One of the examples Idid wanna highlight was.
The technology is geothermaland it's the Boys and Girls Club of Dane County in Wisconsin.
And so they put in themultimillion dollar geothermal.
So it's a geothermal heat pump, right?
This is where you bore holes, drillinto the ground, use the heat in the cool, in the winter, in the summer, and.
(16:53):
You can heat and cool your buildingbasically for free using Wow, the temperature of the earth, right?
So it's a tried and true technology.
It's really good.
But when we got into it, they alsolike, they just needed help with
like, we don't know what qualifies,what do you mean there's a tax cut?
How does all this work?
So we did all the technical calculationand then come to find out like, look clean Wisconsin is like just a little.
(17:18):
Coalition that helps not-for-profitsinstall renewable energy.
So they did a highlight of this projectand when you start looking at it, the Boys and Girls Club added a youth program.
It's like a training center.
They, they call it the training centerfor the next generation of trades people.
So all the young kids are comingin and learning tools of the trade and about the industry.
(17:40):
And what they did is theyput a really big window.
Into the mechanicalroom of the geothermal.
So these kids are learning and you just,you look through the window and I mean, there's pipes and tubes and pumps and
Wow.
You know, they're learning whatit might be like to be architect, construction engineer, consultant.
Maybe one or two of them will beinterested in being a CPA and you know, like, hey, they don't have any
(18:04):
numbers in there, but like they canjust kind of see how this works and
this tube goes into the ground andwhen it's cold, it grabs the heat.
When it's hot, it cools.
And so it was just awesome becausemeeting with the Boys and Girls Club.
They have a mission and for this newfacility, their mission is training the next generation and having a community
where youth can go and learn and likethey don't know about tax credit.
(18:28):
So to come in and just be thatone part, you know, one cog in the wheel to make it all happen with the
engineer and the construction andboys and girls club can now go do their mission and have this happen.
So it was, it was just kind of touchingto see that, you know, we're at least part of that community in a, in a small way.
Nice.
Yeah, that's, it is rewarding.
(18:49):
Yeah.
And that's pretty cool.
Yeah, I got a big smile, that's for sure.
Yeah.
One other example, just like a wholekind of different scenario, but there's a hospital up in Minnesota and they
have this like really big operation,so there's a lot of like waste heat.
So they did a, like a combined heatand power system, which combined heat and power qualifies as well.
(19:09):
So they're taking waste, heat,steam, and generating electricity,
and they're actually selling it at adiscount to the hospital next to them.
So just like some of these renewableenergy, you know, the technologies
are like, well, you have a lotof heat leaving your building.
Well, we can just.
Turn that into energy and plug itinto your neighbor and like, so
(19:30):
it's really kind of cool like seeinghow a lot of these things work.
And again, we're just one piece ofthe puzzle to come in and say, I can help you maximize your tax credit,
walk you through the filing process,offer you audit representation in case the IRS ask questions.
We're here.
So again, it's just like similar to,you know, our R&D beloved RD tax credit.
(19:50):
You get to see how.
Engineering Right.
Can actually change the world for good.
So, you know, it feelsgood to be part of it.
Alright, so I've gotta bring this up.
You know we're sitting here right nowexpecting a new tax bill sometime in 2025.
Yeah.
We're not sure what's gonna happen.
We did see some executive orderscome out earlier in the year where.
(20:14):
It looked like maybe it washaving an impact on these credits.
I don't think it really is, but sowhere do we sit legislative wise?
Where do we sit credit wise?
Is there, hey, we're all systems go?
Yeah.
Or, or what's happening right now?
Yeah, so a few different answers for that.
The first one is just to clarify thatthe ITCs, we talked about it, ITCs, PTCs.
(20:37):
The elective paying the transferability,they're all tax code, right?
They're all statutory, so they're there.
So if you're moving dirt and you'replacing in service this year, you're more than likely going to be good.
Okay?
Right.
It to be somethingprospectively, hopefully.
So on that statutory side, wedon't know what it'll take an act of Congress to change it.
(20:57):
So.
Maybe not.
We don't know.
On the funding side, right, theappropriations, the discretionary
spending, a lot of that ison hold and under review.
So we don't know.
A lot of it is allocated,A lot of it's not.
It's just hard to know rightnow and we'll see going forward.
But I mean, the new administration'spolicy, like maybe they don't like climate change and greenhouse gas.
(21:21):
And this other stuff, butthey do like energy, right?
It's an all energy policy.
They want the most affordable andfastest energy they can get of all forms.
So I don't wanna say that I'mtrolling Chris Wright, the head of DOE, but I, I do watch every time
he speaks, I listen because I followhim on YouTube, which he's doing a great job, but he's from Colorado.
(21:44):
He's a Colorado guy.
And so one of the things.
We do or we look for, is like we dogeothermal technology and we've gotten really good at calculating geothermal and.
And like if you go to the DOE'S websiteand you go under geothermal, they have
a geothermal office that just says, thisis all the great things about geothermal.
(22:04):
Not 'cause we drill into the ground,which is, you know, but like there's,
like, for example, there's companiesthat are taking old oil rigs, right?
And just converting themto geothermal energy pumps.
So they're trying to justrepurpose, refurbish.
So, I mean, I think.
Since it's an all energy policy, a lotof the climate twist will go away, but I don't see the ITCs really going away.
(22:32):
There might be a change, andalso it's been kind of loosely I.
Estimated that 75 to 80% of the growth ordollars from the Inflation reduction Act are in red states from the last election.
So there's gonna be constituents andpeople in, you know, there's gonna be big companies saying something and a lot
(22:55):
of small businesses saying something,and the new administration's gonna listen, and I think it's gonna be good.
So,
yeah, that's what I'm hearing too.
I think this will stay in maybe somesmall changes here and there, but there's a lot of money being invested.
Yes,
yes.
In this at this point, thatisn't being invested because there's some incentives as well.
Other reasons too, but out there.
(23:17):
Yeah.
So we don't know for sure wherethings are going, but things sound like a positive standpoint.
There's money being invested,like we just said, but.
There's some cool thingsgoing on out there too.
I know you mentioned somethingto me about geothermal.
You just talked about geothermaland some like collegiate competition around geothermal.
What's that all about?
Yeah, so I mean really it's kind ofbridging the gap between like, hey, here's, here's technology and then here's
(23:43):
legislation, and then like here's maybethe the taxpayer ultimate user and like how do all these things come together?
How do we actually install geothermal?
So one of, there was a 2024geothermal collegiate competition in.
There's like a, you know, award moneyfor first, second, third place, but Yep.
When I was reading it, what I foundreally interesting about it was there was two different competition tracks.
(24:08):
One is the technical track, right?
These teams, these colleges and thestudents that are learning about the technology and the resource assessment
and the design and the geothermalsystem and all of that other stuff.
But then the other track wascalled the policy track, which I thought was really interesting.
You know, so it's, it, I mean,it's focused on, you know, the analysis like for the regulatory
(24:31):
environment, the economic assessment,workforce development analysis.
Wow.
Like when you, so even looking at theinflation reduction act, and I mean bipartisan support on workforce every,
everybody's looking to create jobs, butjust getting like, okay, here's a piece of legislation and here is some technology.
Here's the colleges that wantto compete on design, and then how does that get implemented?
(24:56):
Not only from a technology resourcestance, but who's gonna build it?
Where's it gonna go?
How are we gonna get it?
Is there a tax credit for that?
Like, you know, and likehow do we get buy-in?
How do communities resource people?
How do you.
The workforce development wasinteresting because with the Inflation Reduction Act, one of the other
programs we did was the 48 Cap C, theAdvanced Manufacturing Energy Program.
(25:20):
And under it, you know, the applicationsrequired a big workforce development plan, so we also got to learn a lot about, okay.
If you're gonna ask the governmentfor this money and you're gonna
go build this facility that'sgoing to add to the supply chain.
We like all of that, but we're gonna giveyou money if we know you're gonna find the people, hire the people, train the
(25:43):
people, have them work under prevailingwage and apprenticeship requirements.
And so just seeing the implementation ofit is also very cool on how that works.
So that was very interesting.
I thought just from.
Why not get these students involved?
They love the technology, they lovethe design of it, but soon as they
graduate college and leave that bubbleand get in the real world, guess what?
(26:05):
Then they're gonna have tolearn the politics of getting your, you know, geothermal unit.
You know, you gotta, you got theenvironmental agencies, you got the
state regulators, you got permitting,like all these other things.
And then the workforcecommunity with the buy-in.
So it's.
It's been cool learning aboutall this other stuff too.
(26:26):
Yep.
Lot of intertwinedthings going intertwined.
Yep,
for sure.
Alright, so obviously yes, everything, wesee this whole intertwining of government
and education and workforce and everythingthat you just mentioned out there.
Now being the Unique CPA Podcast,obviously we have people on the
accounting, tax and accountingfields listening to this.
(26:47):
What if they're, you know, thinking.
Uh, I don't know what I'm supposed to do.
Am I, do I need reachout to my nonprofits?
How do I know if they're doing something?
What's next steps?
Should I have people?
Yeah.
You know, what's advice would yougive to the advisors out there then?
Yeah.
Well, interestingly enough, in allof our CPA channel partners, for the
(27:07):
last 20 years, we've been knocking onthe door of the tax department, right?
So the not-for-profit and the audit side.
They don't get Barry calling themafter every tax season, but the
main thing is one, if, I mean,if they can ask the question of.
What are you doing?
You don't really have to knowwhat qualifies for renewable energy, but any improvement.
(27:29):
Yes, like any project they're workingon, just pretend it qualifies because you bring it in and more than likely it will.
But just asking, because like you'vesaid, you don't always do tax planning with a not-for-profit entity, right?
Right.
Oh yeah.
So one is having thatfirst conversation, but.
I would say the next steps, themost critical steps are timing.
(27:53):
What is the placed in servicedate of the actual asset of the renewable energy asset?
And then what is the tax return deadline?
Because when it comes to electivepay, you can't amend, you have to do it on open return.
Wow.
Okay.
And yeah, and the governmentgave a six month extension, and that ended at the end of 2024.
So if you do hear of a project.
(28:15):
Immediate thing is when is itthey call a PTO permission to operate or PIS placed in service?
Like, when is this?
You know, when's, when's it turned on?
Turned on.
Alright.
That whenever it's turned on, it startsgenerating renewable energy is the date.
And then so that next year end.
(28:35):
Is when they'll have to file the 990-T.
So that would be the most critical.
Yep.
So just be aware of it.
Yep.
Talk to 'em, see ifthey're doing anything.
Don't even ask if they're doinga renewable energy project.
Are you doing anyimprovements on your property?
Right.
Because then we can seeif they're renewable.
Okay.
So, so.
If anybody is curious, wants to knowmore, has a question, where's the best place for them to reach out to you
(29:00):
on LinkedIn?
X?
Yeah.
Not Facebook, but I guessI'm dating myself there.
I am open for any phone call ordiscussion or even I, we just had a question the other day from a CPA that
just, you know, the 3468 to 3800 to990-T, something wasn't jiving and, and I we're just like, I. Said Nick.
(29:22):
Nick is our CFO for the listeners, youknow, Nick and I have just helped him
with that answer and it just helpedus learn more also right about right.
You know, like, don't forgetnow I can pass this on as the knowledge of getting there.
So for us, I guess she reminded me that wedid have some, you know, experience with
not-for-profits, but still a lot of, alot of these things are a little bit new.
(29:45):
Because of, you know, some,there's lot not-for-profits that don't file 990s at all.
So what do they do?
Right?
They can pick a year endand they need a 990-T.
So any questions anyone has, we wouldlove to answer 'em or get in front of any
either technical issue or administrativeissue as well, just to help us get better.
Yep.
And at the Tri-Merit websitethere's contact information, uh mm-hmm to reach out.
(30:09):
And so that'll get routed to Barry or thecorrect person if there is any questions.
Barry, I don't wanna end the, thepodcast without doing my normal question at the end of each podcast.
And you probably answered thisbefore since you are a repeat guest.
But hey, I can tell you'resuper passionate about tax credits and incentives.
I've known this for almost 19 years now.
(30:32):
But when you're not outworking, doing this, what is your outside of work passions?
What do you enjoy doing?
Well, when it's snowing, I'mnormally not in the office.
Um, I think, you know, that I, yes, loveto ski, but also now that it's thawing
out my actual, I could, my fishingpole is right here next to my desk.
Uh.
(30:53):
But any, anything in themountains is where you'll find me.
If it's snowing or a beautiful day, I'mmore than likely skiing or in the river.
So,
all right.
That's what, and is it afly fishing rod next to you?
It is a fly fishing rod.
It's, that's what I figured.
Nine foot five weightFor anyone that knows.
What that means.
(31:14):
That's what the standardColorado tool is at nine five.
Nice.
We're recording on May 6th.
I think this will be releasedpretty quick, so I will let people
know that Barry will be speakingat Bridging the Gap conference.
Yep.
Talking about renewal,but energy tax credits.
It is in Colorado, Denver, so maybehe'll even bring his nine foot five or whatever you just called it.
(31:37):
Yeah.
Fly Run.
Yep.
Then you could show other people that.
So, and if anybody wants anyinformation on Bridging the Gap, it's BTG conference.com.
We'll put that in the show notes.
We'll have a great time there, and Barrywill be one of our featured speakers in our tax track at the conference.
So, Barry, thank you so much for, uh.
The information you shared and thepassion you showed on this, uh, renewable energy for nonprofits discussion.
(32:01):
Yeah.
Thank you so much forhaving me again, Randy.
Thank you for joining ustoday on the unique CPA.
You can find the show notes fortoday's episode and learn more about Tri-Merit at TheUniqueCPA.com.
Remember to subscribe andleave a five star rating on your favorite podcasting app.
(32:21):
And join us next time for more expertiseand insights on the unique cpa.
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