April 15, 2025 • 37 mins
Randy hosts a very special Episode 207 of The Unique CPA, with now three-time guest Dawn Brolin. Dawn, the “Designated Motivator,” discusses her latest book, The Elevation of Empathy: Leading for the W.I.N., and she delves into how empathy transforms leadership, organizational culture, and mental health. Dawn’s impactful personal stories about dealing with leaders who lack empathy highlights the importance of vulnerability, transparency, and intentionality if you want to be the kind of leader that people look up to and remember for the right reasons. Emphasizing the detrimental impact of poor leadership on mental well-being, the significance of positive mentorship, and the need for genuine care in professional relationships, Dawn’s practical advice on practicing empathy is valuable currency when it comes to humanizing the accounting profession and the experiences of those who are in it.
Get the full show notes and more resources at TheUniqueCPA.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello, and welcome to The UniqueCPA with your host, Randy Crabtree.
(00:04):
We are committed to creating a thrivingcommunity of accounting professionals
who are physically and mentally healthy,fulfilled, and energized by their work.
Our ultimate goal is to elevatethe reputation of the accounting
profession and vastly improvedthe lives of those in it.
The Unique CPA is broughtto you by Tri-Merit, the specialty tax professionals.
Today on The Unique CPA, wehave an incredible guest and a great friend, Dawn Brolin.
(00:29):
Dawn is a powerhouse, and that's notan understatement in this industry.
She's known as the designatedmotivator, and now even going beyond that, she's bringing us a
book that challenges everythingwe think we know about leadership.
Her latest book, the Elevation ofEmpathy: Leading for the Win, W period I period N period explores how
(00:52):
empathy is not just a soft skill, buta game changing force in leadership, culture, and even mental health.
I'm sure we'll talk about the book today.
We will talk about.
Tax season since we are recordingon February 25th, we'll talk about what's happening at Powerful
Accounting and we'll talk a littlebit of how we met, I think, too.
So before I go any further, Dawn,welcome back to the unique CPA.
(01:15):
Well, I'm honored, Randy, you have suchamazing guests that you bring on the
podcast, so for you to ask me not justonce, but twice is extremely humbling.
Well, thank you.
But it's actually three times if wecount the in-person podcast, so that
was really super special.
The in-Person podcast was amazing.
(01:35):
I believe Josh was on that podcast.
Yeah,
and that was very special.
Yep.
So before we get into it today,I wanna tell a little story and you can jump in anytime you want.
Okay.
It's just, I'm wearing a shirttoday, which that's the Intuit Tax.
And I wore this specifically becauseI met Dawn Brolin, the infamous.
(01:56):
Dawn Brolin close to three years agonow in June of 2022 in Dallas, Texas at an Intuit Tax Council meeting.
We were
freshman, I think,
at the, yeah, we werefreshman on the tax council.
I'm not sure if you're stayingon another year or not.
I don't know if you know that yet.
It's not.
It's up in the air.
I don't.
(02:16):
I'll probably get booted.
I'm pretty sure I'm gonna getbooted, but I figured at the last
council they were gonna remove mebefore the meeting was even on.
So I feel like I'll probably be booted,but you know what, more to come folks?
Yep.
More Dawn Brolin, for sure.
So at that first meeting, I thinkit was the very first night.
End of the night, it might have evenbeen the second night, you know, everybody was heading up to the rooms.
(02:37):
Dawn, I and a few other people endedup sitting at the bar and like from
that moment on, I just felt like Dawnhas been my best friend for my life.
It's been amazing getting to knowher, but it didn't even take more than
a second to get to know her becauseit just felt like a connection.
I was like, have I known Randy forever?
Because I'm like, I feel like I've,like we were just talking that night and I felt like we'd been to a million
(03:02):
conferences together that this wasjust another one of our get togethers.
Yep.
And it was the weirdest thing.
'cause that doesn't always happen.
Like you meet people and you're like.
Hey, this is a great person.
And oh hey, you know, we'llsee you in another year.
And it was like, from that momenton, it was like, wow, like this, I found my new best friend.
Like I had to hang outwith Randy anytime I could.
And that's exactly how I felt.
(03:24):
And the cool thing is it's not just,I mean, you became a great friend, but in that whole group, we've got a
really good group of friends that we'vebuilt from that Intuit Tax Council.
So if nothing else.
And there's plenty withIntuit with the tax Council.
It's been a really fun ride, but I'llbe forever grateful for the group of friends that I made from that tax council.
(03:44):
Yes, a hundred percent.
You know, the Intuit tax Council'sbeen instrumental in me finding my
tribe and you know, and there's,I have like a handful of tribes.
You've got a handful of tribes, youknow, all of us all having the same intentions of bettering ourselves,
but also bettering each otherin whatever capacity that means.
And however we can.
And people are just so willingto give and give and give.
(04:05):
And Randy's just a giver that's, you know,I, he should be Randy Giver Crabtree.
So.
Randy the Giver Crabtree, if itwas gonna be his wrestling name.
Um, that's what,
well I think you could havethat exact same middle name.
So I think we're gonna have to,uh, reach out to Intuit after this episode and say we need a sponsor.
(04:25):
'cause we've mentioned yourname bunch already, so Yeah.
You're welcome.
Yes.
A sponsored episode.
All right.
So yeah, I don't
think I have any pull,so don't ask for my help.
I communicated, or whatever you call it.
I think you got lots of poll, but allright, let's get into a few things and we
(04:47):
can go anywhere and we will go anywherebecause this is the way it works with us.
But you had your first book out, theDesignated Motivator, which is an awesome book and done well, and then
you did this, what a second versionone that was general and then a second
version for accountants, and now thenew book, which I'm very honored to say.
I wrote a forward in this book.
Hopefully that didn'tget Edit it out, did it?
(05:08):
No,
no, we did not cut that page out.
Decided we'd keep it.
No, you were, it was an easypick for me to ask you because.
You have such a high priority in, youknow, wellness and mental health and the book really, it didn't tell the
full story of my experiences when itcame to people in a leadership role.
(05:29):
I didn't get into too much detail'cause I don't like to call people out.
Mm-hmm.
But I would say that you werean easy pick for that because mental health is so, so important.
And we can, you know, I feellike the awareness is growing.
I feel like we're startingto really realize it.
So the realization, I guess,that admitting you have a problem thing is always step one.
(05:51):
But I'm just a person.
My love language is acts of service.
I'm not a words of affirmationperson, though, I would say I
would prefer people not to saybad things to me or mean things.
Yes, but
you know, you know words of affirmation.
You don't have to tell melike, oh, you're the best ever.
Or those, I don't need to hearthat, but what I don't need to hear is garbage outta your mouth.
That's the one thing.
(06:12):
But I realized that the elevationof empathy in the world we live in today is more important than ever.
And it tied so deeply into mentalhealth that I was like, Randy's gotta write this forward because you get it.
And you're doing something about it.
Yeah.
Well, thanks and it was anhonor for me and I appreciate the book you put out there.
Empathy is one of the things I alwayssay is one of the key leadership skills,
(06:36):
vulnerability, transparency, empathy,and intentionality are my four, top four.
So empathy is right up there, so, so.
Let's you know, we didn't knowwhere we were gonna go for sure.
But let's talk about the book a little.
I mean, sure, you didn't wanna callanybody out, obviously, but can you tell
us a little bit of what really was the,uh, inspiration behind writing the book?
(06:57):
Yeah.
I've been in many situations, whetherit's in a partnership scenario over the last dec, you know, 25 years of
either being in a partnership withpeople and watching how they lead the
organization, watching coaches, I. Leadteams, or I should say coaching teams.
I shouldn't say lead teams.
(07:18):
'cause not every coach is a leader, thoughthey think they are because they're the coach, but they're not in some cases.
So looking at people in the head oforganizations, people who are, I would say, have that inherent, the ancy.
Of leadership because they're putinto a position and so they think automatically, well I'm the head coach.
Oh, well I'm the manager of this scenario,or I'm the president of this organization.
(07:42):
I'm the CEO of this organization,which to me does not tell you that you are a leader.
You do.
You earn that.
And I put in the book,nobody is like born.
A leader, they're just not born a leader.
Nobody at five years old when they'rein, you know, kindergarten, what do you wanna be when you grow up?
And I've seen some of the funny tiktokswhere the kids, they have this like elementary school graduation, the kids
(08:05):
going from kindergarten to first gradeand they're like, you know, Harry.
Harry wants to be a gas station attendantand like, those things are hilarious.
Right.
So I, I just, those are some of myfavorite videos to watching the kids like, yeah, man, I'm gonna be a gas.
Which there's nothing wrong with gasstation attendants, no's New Jersey, you can't even pump your own gas.
(08:26):
So I get we need them.
Right.
Well, that's.
My parents never would've met withoutmy dad being a gas station attendant.
And there it is.
My mom.
Yep.
My mom would drive up to see this cute guyat the gas station pump gas for, and then next thing you know, they were married.
And they
were married.
And I came around andthere's purposes for that.
I was just mentioning that.
'cause it's funny.
Is crazy funny.
(08:47):
And so, you know, thinking aboutwhen you're five, you're not
like, I wanna, you know what, whenI grow up I wanna be a leader.
See, because.
The leadership qualitiesare something you grow.
I say part of it you grow up with.
You learn from your parents,you learn from your friends.
You learn from people thatyou expose yourself to.
I've always told my kids, youbecome the people you hang out with.
(09:11):
Those are facts.
You wanna be successful.
Hang around successful people.
'cause success breeds success.
Failure breeds failure, and I meanfailure and not like striking out.
I don't mean it like that,like not, you know, missing a ball or those kind of things.
So I found that for the, thosein a position of leadership, the
(09:31):
consequences of their lack ofempathy is extremely significant.
So when you are in a position ofleadership and you act without having
any sense of empathy for those that areaffected by the decisions you're making.
Now we know that when you makedecisions, some of them are hard.
(09:51):
That's part of what a leader has to do.
Sometimes they have to go aagainst the popular vote, right?
The whatever the organization maybelieve to be, we should move this way.
Sometimes the leader will choose adifferent path, and that's tough, but that leader has to take into consideration.
What are the consequences ofthe folks that they're leading?
(10:12):
And you've gotta have that sense ofempathy and understanding that the
consequences may be negative to thatperson, whatever the capacity is.
But they've gotta have the empathy areabecause those who are in leadership roles.
Who lack empathy can destroy.
I don't say they do.
I say they can destroy thosewho are following them, and that
(10:34):
is something that may not be animmediate consequence for that person.
It, it may be something that's reflective,meaning, you know, five years later, 10 years later, they look back and
they reflect upon the past and itcan negatively impact them in a way.
In some cases can be extremely severe.
In some cases can be a greatopportunity to learn about the type of person you don't wanna be.
(10:57):
So now you need to educate yourself andlearn about what does empathy really mean, and you've gotta start to embrace that.
And so I'm very passionate aboutthat 'cause I've seen leaders.
Destroy people.
Oh yeah.
The whole time you werejust talking there.
I was thinking about, and I didn'tread a lot about it, but man, I saw a lot of blowback about it.
(11:18):
There was a, I'll just say a leader ofa large financial institution recently that, I don't know if you saw this,
that basically was in a private meetingthat was recorded and that got out and he was trying to do a return to
office type thing and pretty much wassaying, I don't care what anybody else.
Thinks I don't, I mean, he had no empathyfor how his decisions could affect anybody else, and I'm really curious
(11:42):
to see long-term if this does have anegative effect on what's going on.
Because the way he said things, andI can't quote a word for word, and I'm not going to, and I'm not gonna
say who it was, but man, it, that tome was a complete lack of empathy.
I don't even know if you knowwhat I'm talking about or not.
If you heard the story, I
probably have a sense forwhat you're talking about.
Yeah.
(12:02):
I, that's a great example becausethat is something that's happening
in many organizations acrossthe country and maybe the world.
I'm, you know, a littlebubble in Connecticut, but possibly across the world, but
Right.
We are seeing that type of a decisionbeing made and because of those
decisions that are being made, I. If youthink about those who have relocated.
Now I've had some pretty hardcorearguments with some local folks here, some friends of mine who about the
(12:29):
return to work and the type of thingwhere it's like, you know, I kind
of get it, but there's gotta, you'vegotta give these people some leeway.
Some of them have relocated, some ofthem have signed contracts that should
allow them to be remote, continueto be remote, and things like that.
That's a huge topic, and that isdefinitely has a huge impact on the
mental wellbeing of those folks who arenow like, now I gotta uproot my family.
(12:53):
I gotta move back to that particular area.
Now we gotta move the kids.
If there's kids involved,that's a whole nother ball game.
So leaders that make those types ofdecisions where there's not a lot of
ability or flexibility to make thatshift, like you can't do a return to work.
Give them like a month or even sixmonths, you know, they need a year.
(13:15):
Yep.
To be able to, and decidewhether they even want to.
But you're right.
That's a perfect example ofa leader or a a person who is put in a leadership position.
That's how I wanna say it.
'cause it doesn't mean they're aleader because make those decisions without empathy on the results
and consequences of the peoplethey're making the decision for.
So.
I agree with that a hundred percent.
(13:36):
So, so I got a question for you.
I was recently talking to a leadershipcoach, and she was talking about empathy and other things, but she was almost
analyzing me as we were talking, whichwas a positive thing because I said, I, you know, I don't think I'm a leader.
And then we kept talking.
She goes, Randy, every single thingyou said in this whole conversation is what a leader should be.
(13:57):
And I'm like, what?
Yes.
And then, but then she said.
Well, why don't you think you're a leader?
And I thought about it, and I'venever thought about this before, and I said, you know what?
I think it's the word.
I mean, when I, when you say leader, I.It's like you're up top and everybody's following you and you're in control.
And I don't wanna be that.
(14:18):
I wanna be at the samelevel of everybody else.
I wanna be together.
And I think that's part of empathy.
I don't want to be the onesaying do this, do that.
And that's what I feelthe word leadership means.
And that's just probablymisinterpretation in my mind.
But I don't know if you had any,uh, uh, ever considered the word and the impact that word might have.
(14:40):
The word is intimidating.
Yes.
The word is 100% intimidating.
What I will say is that, yes, Ihave those, I will call it imposter
syndrome, inferiority, like Idon't believe I'm good enough.
Mm-hmm.
I don't feel like I'm worthyenough and believe me.
If you don't think I think about thatevery five minutes, you dunno me.
I mean, I think that breeds whatcomes from within you as a leader.
(15:05):
Whether you like it or not, isthat's what some people need.
Now I look at you as a leader.
And I'm like, I wanna, you know,follow what Randy's saying.
I agree with him a hundred percent.
He's leading me downa path of reassurance.
He's leading me down a path thatwhat I'm talking about matters and what I believe matters.
That doesn't mean I'mlike, oh, I'm like this.
(15:27):
I'm gonna just follow Randy and likeI'm being a follower because leaders.
People who are leadingneed leaders to lead them.
There's, it's not this oneperson at the top, right.
It's all, it's a collective groupof people who are trying to make
positive influence on other peoplewho either don't see it yet.
Some people who will never see it.
(15:48):
There are definitely folks out there thatI know who just won't get this concept.
Yep.
I think number one, 'cause it's eithernot important to them, number two, they're just satisfied with being who they are.
I feel like we all need to alwaystry to grow and get better.
So you're leading Randy.
That doesn't mean you're at the top.
It means that you arehaving a positive impact.
And that's what leaders, real leaders havea positive impact on the people around them because of the characteristics that
(16:14):
they believe in and that they followand that they profess and they act upon.
But the word leadership and beinga leader is super intimidating.
Yeah.
And a big responsibility.
And not anything you nor I take lightly.
Yep.
And believe me, I heard you sayyou question yourself and all that, man, you are a leader.
There's no doubt about it.
(16:35):
People follow you.
People are inspired by you andmotivated by you, which is really cool.
Alright, so let's go a stepfurther in this leadership or this empathy as much as anything.
And you talked about how the lackof empathy or how the leaders
that don't have empathy can have anegative impact on mental health.
(16:57):
And so you wanna talkabout that connection.
Yeah, for sure.
Let's take tax for a great example.
Let's just take peoplewho are involved in tax.
I know for myself, when I firststarted to learn how to do taxes,
now obviously I took classesand those don't mean anything.
You know, we're all studying togetherand filling out the tax return together.
(17:17):
You don't really learnanything like that in school.
Sorry if you're big into education,it didn't help me anyway.
But once you get into real world andyou start to actually do tax returns, there is a level of leadership to
lead people through the process ofwhat tax prep really means, you know?
You need a mentor to teach you how todo taxes 'cause it's a different animal.
(17:38):
Nobody knows the entire tax code.
Not one person in the universenope, knows the entire thing.
A lot of people know specializedareas, Tri-Merit, for example.
I mean specialty tax credits.
There's not a question in the worldand anyone's mind that Tri-Merit leads the pack when it comes to that.
For somebody like me.
I'm great at really, Iwould say, simple returns.
(18:00):
And when I get into anything reallydifficult, I call on my tax partner.
But when I first started to learn,so where does the lack of empathy, I recall when I first started learning
how to do tax returns, I would preparea tax return, leave it on one of my partner's desks at the end of the day.
And when I came back the nextday, I would have it back on my desk and it would have an F on it.
(18:20):
And the F was like, you suck, basically.
Yeah.
And it was like, figureit out on your own.
Okay.
It's one way to teach.
It's a different way.
You know, like you figure it out, you'regonna learn more by figuring it out.
I respect that.
But when it came to partner meetingsand the conversations around,
you're never gonna be a CPA, you'renever gonna be a tax preparer.
(18:42):
You're not smart enough.
You're not this, you're not that.
Now I looked at thisparticular partner as a leader.
I looked at, I thought she wasthe smartest person I knew.
I thought, you know, she's somebodyI wanna be in business with.
I think we could do great things together.
You do different things than I do, butyou could also teach me and I could teach
you some things and we could, like thiswould be a great opportunity together.
(19:04):
But instead of building up the peoplearound you, and there are people out there, this is where the empathy comes in.
Some people find that, well, if Ijust knock her down and just every
day knock her down a little bit more,then I can continue to be the leader.
She'll be my servant of sorts.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't really carehow it makes her feel.
Yes.
(19:24):
So, you know, and I recall when Ileft, I'm like, I will never treat.
Whether they're partners or employeesor colleagues or whatever, I will never treat them without having the empathy
of understanding what I say to them isgonna impact them on a personal level.
People will say to me, well, you gottatake the emotion out of business.
(19:46):
I get that.
And there are areas we can control that.
Like pricing for example.
We take the emotion right outta that,but when it comes to dealing with people.
We have to have an elevated sense ofthat empathy to ensure that though we wanna correct them, we wanna
correct them so they get better, notcorrect them, to knock them down.
And I think that's a level of careand concern we all need to have when we are in fact helping people.
(20:11):
And so I know for myself, with, withmy team that I have currently, there's only two other people besides myself.
Thank God.
You know, I just, I wannahave that empathy for them.
In every interaction that I have,and I wanna be like, okay, you know
Nicole, let's jump on a Zoom 'cause weneed to fix the way you're doing this.
Dawn't worry about it.
I didn't know how to do it either before,whether I did or not is irrelevant.
(20:34):
I didn't wanna make her feel inferior oruncomfortable in any way, shape or form.
Rather, I want to leave with, Hey listen,I've screwed this up for so many years.
Let me show you because I'dbeen there and I get it.
That's just putting other people beforeyourself and other people's feelings.
And the fact that by the way, youdon't freaking know everything.
And another scenario, the worsttime to correct people are when they're under pressure.
(20:59):
And I'm gonna use softball for an example.
'cause it's a great example and it's true.
Think about a freshman that comes in.
Geez.
You know, let's say she's upto bat for the first whatever, it doesn't even matter.
She's up to bat.
She's trying the best she can.
She wants to stay a starter.
So she's up there and she swings the bat.
Swings the bat.
Swings the bat.
Strikes out the kids, first of all,after they've struck out, after you've
(21:21):
made a mistake on a tax return, afteryou've screwed up a journal entry.
Is that the best time for a leaderto get in your face in whatever capacity, whether it's in your face,
or to take the bat outta your handand say, this is why you're not.
You're not hitting the ball.
'cause your head's out.
Your head's out.
In front of everybody that's there.
(21:41):
Is that a great way to teach someone?
I believe not.
I believe it's not because in thatmoment of a strikeout, in that moment of screwing something up on a tax return,
which we all have done and we'll continueto do as we all are human, is that the time or the moment to address it?
(22:02):
And that's where a personwho's in a leadership role.
I don't know if it makes that person feelbetter, you know, maybe they truly believe
that's a productive opportunity, butit's, it really isn't in that capacity.
So I've seen a lot of, and again,in various situations, various scenarios where I just like cringe
(22:22):
at the moment to be like, alright,they're already at their lowest.
Mm-hmm.
Why do I wanna kick them evenharder while they're down?
And that's where empathy, you know what?
Pick the kid up.
Pick up the tax.
Hey, listen, you know what,we'll get the next one.
Dawn't worry about it.
Next tax return, let's, I'm gonnagive you another partnership return.
Let's make sure we nail downthat guaranteed payments.
Make sure we allocate them andso that the one partner doesn't get the big K one, right?
(22:45):
So because it's a hundred percentallocated to them, like let's work together on that, right?
Because.
That is something you and, andLet me back up a sec, Randy.
I know what I'm, I'm takingover here for some reason,
you're allowed to take over.
This is something like I just, I thinkone of the things that for me is a primary
indicator of why we need to think aboutit, and there's memes all over the place.
(23:08):
You see 'em on everysocial media platform.
We see 'em over and over again and wejust go, oh yeah, I've seen that before.
Listen.
At the end of the day when you pick upa phone call, it's another thing with clients as it relates to them as well.
Let's say you pick up the phone and it'sthat guy again, you pick up the phone and be like, Hey Randy, how are you today?
(23:29):
How are you?
How's it going today?
Before you even get into anythingelse, hey, how are you doing today?
Yep.
And actually, listen, this gets crazy.
We're gonna get crazy on this podcast.
You ask them how they are.
You let them answer you
right?
We are so programmed tosay, Hey, how you doing?
(23:50):
And that's it.
That's where you're like, I don'treally care how you're doing.
I'm just asking it.
'cause that's polite.
And my parents always told me to do that.
But really the empathetic part ofasking someone how they're doing is an indication, an example of empathy.
Then listen to what they have tosay because they may be calling you about an issue around taxes or
(24:10):
their books or financial planningor whatever they may be doing.
When in fact, momentsbefore that their cat died.
Yeah.
We misinterpret a lot of emotionbecause we don't allow ourselves to get a little bit vested in other
people, and when we don't do that,we can appear to be unempathetic.
Maybe we're not, butwe've gotta practice that.
(24:32):
That's the key.
We've gotta practicethose types of things.
Simple.
I agree.
You just in that last five minutes, Ijust realized, and I knew this before anyways, why we're such great friends?
Because you talked about empathy.
I. You talked about vulnerability,saying when you went to somebody,
it's like, Hey, I've messed thisup before I make these mistakes.
Here's what I've learned from it.
(24:53):
And you showed vulnerability.
Passion obviously came through.
That's a big topic for me when youwere talking there, people first, I. That I talk about all the time.
Oh, and transparency evencame in there as well.
So you like hit all my key things sothat I guess it's a no-brainer that first day you and I connected so well.
(25:13):
'cause we have, we look at theworld I think very similarly.
So that whole conversation is great.
One of the things we didn't touch onis that in the book you talk about betrayal in leadership and how.
That affects things.
So why don't you give us an example ofwhat you mean or, or how portrayal comes
into play with empathy or the themeof what we're discussing here today?
(25:34):
Yeah.
From a leadership perspective, forthose who are looking to you, you're somebody like Randy, we talked
about, like we wanna be out therehelping people improve their lives.
Whether it's through improving theirpractice, they can make more money so
they can spend more time with theirfamily, or whatever the case may be.
Whatever you're doing.
To help other people get throughtheir lives and their scenarios, and they look up to you.
(25:54):
They look to you to be a leader.
What I believe can happen for thosepeople who are in a leadership position that are not practicing empathy, and
they're not practicing transparency,they're not practicing the things that we've talked about, those people
who are looking to you for that will,at some point, this will happen.
(26:15):
At some point, they will feel betrayed.
I. What you're saying and whatyou're doing and the way you behave and the way you act.
A lot of them are buying all in.
They're buying in, they're in,they wanna follow, they wanna be a part of, they want to please you.
They want to impress you.
They want to.
(26:35):
Have a pat on the back.
They want those things.
Mm-hmm.
That's a natural human nature.
I mean, I never wanted my mom tobe like, you're a piece of crap.
Like that would suck tohave a mom like that, right?
Yes.
And you, and of course a mom is aleader, or she, let's just say moms are in a leadership role just like dads.
So thinking about that, when youbuy all in and you think you're following the person that you believed
(26:58):
you should be following and thatyou were, this person really is.
Portraying the things Ithink they're supposed to be.
And then what ends up happeningis there's some kind of an action, there's some kind of a moment or a
series of moments where they haveshown what I would call true colors.
Because people can act.
(27:19):
You can act like you have empathy.
You can act like youactually care about people.
You can act like that, butthat can't last forever.
There are true moments that mayhappen in which you'll say, wait a
minute, that's totally the oppositeof what I thought you were doing.
And now I'm seeing something totallydifferent and that betrayal can
(27:42):
will, number one, canon likely willruin whatever that relationship was.
Whether it was an employee, employer,coach, player, coach, coach could
be CEO vp, could be manager, and thepeople that work underneath the manager.
And that is where it can negativelyaffect somebody as a person.
(28:03):
Because listen, if I'm working forsomebody and I got a manager and they've shown their true colors and
now I can't respect them, I can'tbelieve in anything that they're professing, I can go get another job.
But that doesn't mean.
I don't have some baggagefrom that prior manager.
Now that negatively affects that person,this person that's affected in a way
(28:25):
that now they're gonna have a reallytough time trusting the next one.
Now, let's say you get,you know, two strikes.
Now you've got this manager,now you got another manager.
Now you go to the third one.
Now you're really damaged.
Now I'm like, oh, for two, is it me?
Yeah.
Now, now you're questioning yourselfand yeah, like there's so many things that come from that, Randy.
(28:45):
That we've now had people in leadershippositions who have ruined the opportunity.
Well, I say that lovery softly and loosely.
Everyone gets to decidehow it affects them, right?
So you either can, now I'm apsycho, I will power through things, I will run through walls.
I am just that kind of person.
But I, everybody has that.
(29:06):
Not everybody was eitherborn or brought up that way.
I don't know if I was born thatway, but I'm just, I'm a fighter.
I'm not.
No one is gonna.
No one's gonna ruin the opportunityfor me because that's just, but there are some people who just don't
have that strength within them, andthose are the people I wanna fire up.
I wanna pump those people up.
I wanna help them believe in themselves.
I wanna help them understand whoeverthat person was is not everybody.
(29:29):
That's one of the things that webring it back to the beginning
where you find that tribe of peoplethank you into a tax council.
Yes.
That's an extra thousand dollars.
So thinking about that, it'sagain, like I told my family.
And I, I think I said thisin the beginning, and if I didn't, I'm saying it again.
Either I did or I didn't.
You become the people you're surroundedwith, understanding that there are situations where you may have a manager
(29:54):
or a supervisor or something that youcan't make the change on that, but you can make a change in your attitude or
just get the heck out because nobodydeserves mental abuse in any capacity,
especially from someone who is appointedand put into the position of a leader.
Then they don't act uponthose characteristics.
(30:15):
And I hope those people who have theauthority to put people in leadership positions, take this conversation
seriously and understand that whoyou're hiring and who you're appointing, understand who those people are before
you put 'em there, because we can't havethese people ruining lives any longer.
That was awesome.
It was an awesome place to, I thinkprobably wrap it up, but there's a couple things you said that I have to point out.
(30:41):
One is you talk about howyou will run through walls.
I've seen you run through Christmastrees, so I believe, you know, we can
put a link to that video on the podcast.
Yeah.
You wanna explain whatI'm talking about there?
Yeah, so the family used to all goand get Christmas trees together and then one daughter left.
So we did that didn't work.
And then Kevin started working onSaturday, so he couldn't go and then he just didn't wanna anymore and whatever.
(31:06):
And Emily and I said, we're notgonna get rid of this and we're gonna have continue to have fun.
And so she and I would go.
We started this, I thinkit was actually 2021.
Wow.
Was the first year.
Just her and I and we wentto the Christmas tree Farm, same one we go to every year.
We don't even care if theyhave a Charlie Brown tree.
We're never leaving that farm.
We went there and you know, when you gottacut down a Christmas tree, you're not, you know, you gotta use one of those hacksaws,
(31:27):
you gotta lay on the ground and you reallyneed some core strength to saw entirely through that tree in order to get it down.
And so it was just Emily and I, and I'mnot in the best shape I was in before.
Emily's in great shape, but stillit's just awkward to do that.
We would get like a quarter of the waythrough the tree just about halfway, and we're like, we're not asking for help.
(31:49):
We don't ask for help.
We're, bro, we don't do that.
I said, Emily, you know what?
Move over and I ran and I was notreally in the right gear for it, but I ran and I just tackled the tree.
The, actually the first coupleattempts I bounced off of it.
And then by the third attempt I took thetree down and now it's a tradition and now we've added on four of her friends.
(32:12):
Now come everyone videotapesand it's a big thing.
So we now take downour own Christmas tree.
So that's that.
I love that story.
So it is proof that you arecrazy and you'll run through walls or Christmas trees.
Yes.
I'll what you were saying aboutleaders, just a few things when you were talking about coaches.
I've seen the coaches that are just.
(32:33):
Doing what you said not to do.
Someone makes a mistake, and that's thetime where they yank 'em out and they sit in the sideline and they yell at 'em.
I've coached with people likethat and people that I, I really
do like, but I don't like 'emin that situation, and so I.
Yeah, that I think is, at leastI've seen a lot more positive
impact by leading with empathythan I have with leading with fear.
(32:58):
And that's what I think that isright there is leading with fear.
So completely agree with that.
And then I. The other thing is, I justhave to mention this, when you talked about, you know, parents and being,
you know, what you learned from themis, I'm actually writing a new keynote presentation right now, and it appears
that the start of, it's going to be oneof my dad's sayings, which when we were
(33:20):
kids, he would say, he would always say,you can do anything you put your mind to.
You can be anything you wanna be.
And it's like.
That is just positive reinforcementrather than the negative, and that
I always look back to and I thinkthat's been a major impact in my life.
Just hearing that as a kid.
(33:40):
Yep.
Absolutely.
And you know, that's, he is so spoton and I, and I tell people every time
I'm talking to people about, you know,what do you wanna do with your firm?
The biggest struggle for people isthey want to grow their firm is fear.
That's number one.
And the only place that that resides,there's only one place that resides.
And it's inside your head.
Right.
And if you can minimize that voice offear, you can do anything you wanna do.
(34:04):
Yep.
And that, and the sad thing is that's the.
Yep.
Oh, that's it.
That is, that is it.
Now, honestly, with me, I think it'smaybe I've gone too far at times
because I don't have that fear andI, I don't see the risk all the time.
Right.
But that goes back to myparents, you know, you could do anything you put your mind to.
(34:24):
And that's it.
Yep.
Your mind is in charge.
So, and then one final thing is,obviously this was great information.
We talked about the book.
If people wanna find the book, seethe book, read the book, get the book,
find out more about what you're doing,where's best places for them to look.
I'm kind of in a lot of places.
Uh, LinkedIn is usually probably theeasiest and the best to, you know, send a message or whatever the book would be.
(34:49):
I believe it's almost released on,we're having some issues with Amazon, with the whole logging in the thing.
But anyway, it will be onAmazon if it's not already.
If you want a copy, DM me or send me amessage in LinkedIn with your name and address, I'll mail you a signed copy.
It's really about, it's not aboutselling books, it's about getting the word out and helping people.
Really embrace what the messageof empathy really needs to be.
(35:11):
So I'm happy to, to sendany copies out to anybody.
I want my signed copy.
I got you buddy.
Thank you.
Alright, well Dawn, anything you wanna,I, you did a great wrap up there earlier.
Anything else you wanna addbefore we finish up today?
I could do go on for forever, but Ithink my, the biggest message is folks.
I know you see it on memes.
(35:31):
I know you see it on social media.
You may think it's cliche.
You may think like, oh, I'veheard this a million times.
Then if you've heard it a million timesand you're not practicing empathy and
you're not really actually caring aboutother people, try today, start today.
It is a behavior.
It's something that you can learn.
It's something that you can change.
And I also wanted to thank you,Randy, for allowing me to come on, but also for writing the Forward.
(35:52):
There's nobody better out therereally riding the ship, just like getting the ship where it needs to go.
When it comes to mental health and someof the consequences of lack of empathy
does result in some pretty terriblethings that can happen to people.
I think we all knowwhat I'm talking about.
I've experienced it numerous times,unfortunately, between friends and family, and we need to stop that and a lot.
(36:15):
Of what we can do is just start to bekinder to other people, have empathy.
You never know who's sitting on thetop of a bridge right now, ready to go.
And there are many examplesof a simple conversation with somebody where they will stop.
And I have a friend ofmine, this happened to.
Last year, and she sat at a bar and wassitting next to someone, and she was nice to the guy, and they had a conversation
(36:37):
and he said to her, I want you to knowthat I planned on killing myself tonight.
Oh my.
But because of this conversation, Irealize how important my life is and that I need to do something different.
If that's not impactful about havingthe way you treat other people, then
there's nothing else that can changeyour mind about how we need to behave.
Amen.
Well said Dawn.
Well, Dawn, this is goingto be a great episode.
(36:59):
I can't wait for it to be released.
I really appreciate, well, a couplethings, your friendship and being on the show, so thanks for being here.
Love you buddy.
Thank you for joining ustoday on the unique CPA.
You can find the show notes fortoday's episode and learn more about trimer@theuniquecpa.com.
(37:21):
Remember to subscribe and leave afive star rating on your favorite podcast platform, and be sure to
join us next time for more expertiseand insights on the unique cpa.
Hello, and welcome to The UniqueCPA with your host, Randy Crabtree.
(00:04):
We are committed to creating a thrivingcommunity of accounting professionals
who are physically and mentally healthy,fulfilled, and energized by their work.
Our ultimate goal is to elevatethe reputation of the accounting
profession and vastly improvedthe lives of those in it.
The Unique CPA is broughtto you by Tri-Merit, the specialty tax professionals.
Today on The Unique CPA, wehave an incredible guest and a great friend, Dawn Brolin.
(00:29):
Dawn is a powerhouse, and that's notan understatement in this industry.
She's known as the designatedmotivator, and now even going beyond that, she's bringing us a
book that challenges everythingwe think we know about leadership.
Her latest book, the Elevation ofEmpathy: Leading for the Win, W period I period N period explores how
(00:52):
empathy is not just a soft skill, buta game changing force in leadership, culture, and even mental health.
I'm sure we'll talk about the book today.
We will talk about.
Tax season since we are recordingon February 25th, we'll talk about what's happening at Powerful
Accounting and we'll talk a littlebit of how we met, I think, too.
So before I go any further, Dawn,welcome back to the unique CPA.
(01:15):
Well, I'm honored, Randy, you have suchamazing guests that you bring on the
podcast, so for you to ask me not justonce, but twice is extremely humbling.
Well, thank you.
But it's actually three times if wecount the in-person podcast, so that
was really super special.
The in-Person podcast was amazing.
(01:35):
I believe Josh was on that podcast.
Yeah,
and that was very special.
Yep.
So before we get into it today,I wanna tell a little story and you can jump in anytime you want.
Okay.
It's just, I'm wearing a shirttoday, which that's the Intuit Tax.
And I wore this specifically becauseI met Dawn Brolin, the infamous.
(01:56):
Dawn Brolin close to three years agonow in June of 2022 in Dallas, Texas at an Intuit Tax Council meeting.
We were
freshman, I think,
at the, yeah, we werefreshman on the tax council.
I'm not sure if you're stayingon another year or not.
I don't know if you know that yet.
It's not.
It's up in the air.
I don't.
(02:16):
I'll probably get booted.
I'm pretty sure I'm gonna getbooted, but I figured at the last
council they were gonna remove mebefore the meeting was even on.
So I feel like I'll probably be booted,but you know what, more to come folks?
Yep.
More Dawn Brolin, for sure.
So at that first meeting, I thinkit was the very first night.
End of the night, it might have evenbeen the second night, you know, everybody was heading up to the rooms.
(02:37):
Dawn, I and a few other people endedup sitting at the bar and like from
that moment on, I just felt like Dawnhas been my best friend for my life.
It's been amazing getting to knowher, but it didn't even take more than
a second to get to know her becauseit just felt like a connection.
I was like, have I known Randy forever?
Because I'm like, I feel like I've,like we were just talking that night and I felt like we'd been to a million
(03:02):
conferences together that this wasjust another one of our get togethers.
Yep.
And it was the weirdest thing.
'cause that doesn't always happen.
Like you meet people and you're like.
Hey, this is a great person.
And oh hey, you know, we'llsee you in another year.
And it was like, from that momenton, it was like, wow, like this, I found my new best friend.
Like I had to hang outwith Randy anytime I could.
And that's exactly how I felt.
(03:24):
And the cool thing is it's not just,I mean, you became a great friend, but in that whole group, we've got a
really good group of friends that we'vebuilt from that Intuit Tax Council.
So if nothing else.
And there's plenty withIntuit with the tax Council.
It's been a really fun ride, but I'llbe forever grateful for the group of friends that I made from that tax council.
(03:44):
Yes, a hundred percent.
You know, the Intuit tax Council'sbeen instrumental in me finding my
tribe and you know, and there's,I have like a handful of tribes.
You've got a handful of tribes, youknow, all of us all having the same intentions of bettering ourselves,
but also bettering each otherin whatever capacity that means.
And however we can.
And people are just so willingto give and give and give.
(04:05):
And Randy's just a giver that's, you know,I, he should be Randy Giver Crabtree.
So.
Randy the Giver Crabtree, if itwas gonna be his wrestling name.
Um, that's what,
well I think you could havethat exact same middle name.
So I think we're gonna have to,uh, reach out to Intuit after this episode and say we need a sponsor.
(04:25):
'cause we've mentioned yourname bunch already, so Yeah.
You're welcome.
Yes.
A sponsored episode.
All right.
So yeah, I don't
think I have any pull,so don't ask for my help.
I communicated, or whatever you call it.
I think you got lots of poll, but allright, let's get into a few things and we
(04:47):
can go anywhere and we will go anywherebecause this is the way it works with us.
But you had your first book out, theDesignated Motivator, which is an awesome book and done well, and then
you did this, what a second versionone that was general and then a second
version for accountants, and now thenew book, which I'm very honored to say.
I wrote a forward in this book.
Hopefully that didn'tget Edit it out, did it?
(05:08):
No,
no, we did not cut that page out.
Decided we'd keep it.
No, you were, it was an easypick for me to ask you because.
You have such a high priority in, youknow, wellness and mental health and the book really, it didn't tell the
full story of my experiences when itcame to people in a leadership role.
(05:29):
I didn't get into too much detail'cause I don't like to call people out.
Mm-hmm.
But I would say that you werean easy pick for that because mental health is so, so important.
And we can, you know, I feellike the awareness is growing.
I feel like we're startingto really realize it.
So the realization, I guess,that admitting you have a problem thing is always step one.
(05:51):
But I'm just a person.
My love language is acts of service.
I'm not a words of affirmationperson, though, I would say I
would prefer people not to saybad things to me or mean things.
Yes, but
you know, you know words of affirmation.
You don't have to tell melike, oh, you're the best ever.
Or those, I don't need to hearthat, but what I don't need to hear is garbage outta your mouth.
That's the one thing.
(06:12):
But I realized that the elevationof empathy in the world we live in today is more important than ever.
And it tied so deeply into mentalhealth that I was like, Randy's gotta write this forward because you get it.
And you're doing something about it.
Yeah.
Well, thanks and it was anhonor for me and I appreciate the book you put out there.
Empathy is one of the things I alwayssay is one of the key leadership skills,
(06:36):
vulnerability, transparency, empathy,and intentionality are my four, top four.
So empathy is right up there, so, so.
Let's you know, we didn't knowwhere we were gonna go for sure.
But let's talk about the book a little.
I mean, sure, you didn't wanna callanybody out, obviously, but can you tell
us a little bit of what really was the,uh, inspiration behind writing the book?
(06:57):
Yeah.
I've been in many situations, whetherit's in a partnership scenario over the last dec, you know, 25 years of
either being in a partnership withpeople and watching how they lead the
organization, watching coaches, I. Leadteams, or I should say coaching teams.
I shouldn't say lead teams.
(07:18):
'cause not every coach is a leader, thoughthey think they are because they're the coach, but they're not in some cases.
So looking at people in the head oforganizations, people who are, I would say, have that inherent, the ancy.
Of leadership because they're putinto a position and so they think automatically, well I'm the head coach.
Oh, well I'm the manager of this scenario,or I'm the president of this organization.
(07:42):
I'm the CEO of this organization,which to me does not tell you that you are a leader.
You do.
You earn that.
And I put in the book,nobody is like born.
A leader, they're just not born a leader.
Nobody at five years old when they'rein, you know, kindergarten, what do you wanna be when you grow up?
And I've seen some of the funny tiktokswhere the kids, they have this like elementary school graduation, the kids
(08:05):
going from kindergarten to first gradeand they're like, you know, Harry.
Harry wants to be a gas station attendantand like, those things are hilarious.
Right.
So I, I just, those are some of myfavorite videos to watching the kids like, yeah, man, I'm gonna be a gas.
Which there's nothing wrong with gasstation attendants, no's New Jersey, you can't even pump your own gas.
(08:26):
So I get we need them.
Right.
Well, that's.
My parents never would've met withoutmy dad being a gas station attendant.
And there it is.
My mom.
Yep.
My mom would drive up to see this cute guyat the gas station pump gas for, and then next thing you know, they were married.
And they
were married.
And I came around andthere's purposes for that.
I was just mentioning that.
'cause it's funny.
Is crazy funny.
(08:47):
And so, you know, thinking aboutwhen you're five, you're not
like, I wanna, you know what, whenI grow up I wanna be a leader.
See, because.
The leadership qualitiesare something you grow.
I say part of it you grow up with.
You learn from your parents,you learn from your friends.
You learn from people thatyou expose yourself to.
I've always told my kids, youbecome the people you hang out with.
(09:11):
Those are facts.
You wanna be successful.
Hang around successful people.
'cause success breeds success.
Failure breeds failure, and I meanfailure and not like striking out.
I don't mean it like that,like not, you know, missing a ball or those kind of things.
So I found that for the, thosein a position of leadership, the
(09:31):
consequences of their lack ofempathy is extremely significant.
So when you are in a position ofleadership and you act without having
any sense of empathy for those that areaffected by the decisions you're making.
Now we know that when you makedecisions, some of them are hard.
(09:51):
That's part of what a leader has to do.
Sometimes they have to go aagainst the popular vote, right?
The whatever the organization maybelieve to be, we should move this way.
Sometimes the leader will choose adifferent path, and that's tough, but that leader has to take into consideration.
What are the consequences ofthe folks that they're leading?
(10:12):
And you've gotta have that sense ofempathy and understanding that the
consequences may be negative to thatperson, whatever the capacity is.
But they've gotta have the empathy areabecause those who are in leadership roles.
Who lack empathy can destroy.
I don't say they do.
I say they can destroy thosewho are following them, and that
(10:34):
is something that may not be animmediate consequence for that person.
It, it may be something that's reflective,meaning, you know, five years later, 10 years later, they look back and
they reflect upon the past and itcan negatively impact them in a way.
In some cases can be extremely severe.
In some cases can be a greatopportunity to learn about the type of person you don't wanna be.
(10:57):
So now you need to educate yourself andlearn about what does empathy really mean, and you've gotta start to embrace that.
And so I'm very passionate aboutthat 'cause I've seen leaders.
Destroy people.
Oh yeah.
The whole time you werejust talking there.
I was thinking about, and I didn'tread a lot about it, but man, I saw a lot of blowback about it.
(11:18):
There was a, I'll just say a leader ofa large financial institution recently that, I don't know if you saw this,
that basically was in a private meetingthat was recorded and that got out and he was trying to do a return to
office type thing and pretty much wassaying, I don't care what anybody else.
Thinks I don't, I mean, he had no empathyfor how his decisions could affect anybody else, and I'm really curious
(11:42):
to see long-term if this does have anegative effect on what's going on.
Because the way he said things, andI can't quote a word for word, and I'm not going to, and I'm not gonna
say who it was, but man, it, that tome was a complete lack of empathy.
I don't even know if you knowwhat I'm talking about or not.
If you heard the story, I
probably have a sense forwhat you're talking about.
Yeah.
(12:02):
I, that's a great example becausethat is something that's happening
in many organizations acrossthe country and maybe the world.
I'm, you know, a littlebubble in Connecticut, but possibly across the world, but
Right.
We are seeing that type of a decisionbeing made and because of those
decisions that are being made, I. If youthink about those who have relocated.
Now I've had some pretty hardcorearguments with some local folks here, some friends of mine who about the
(12:29):
return to work and the type of thingwhere it's like, you know, I kind
of get it, but there's gotta, you'vegotta give these people some leeway.
Some of them have relocated, some ofthem have signed contracts that should
allow them to be remote, continueto be remote, and things like that.
That's a huge topic, and that isdefinitely has a huge impact on the
mental wellbeing of those folks who arenow like, now I gotta uproot my family.
(12:53):
I gotta move back to that particular area.
Now we gotta move the kids.
If there's kids involved,that's a whole nother ball game.
So leaders that make those types ofdecisions where there's not a lot of
ability or flexibility to make thatshift, like you can't do a return to work.
Give them like a month or even sixmonths, you know, they need a year.
(13:15):
Yep.
To be able to, and decidewhether they even want to.
But you're right.
That's a perfect example ofa leader or a a person who is put in a leadership position.
That's how I wanna say it.
'cause it doesn't mean they're aleader because make those decisions without empathy on the results
and consequences of the peoplethey're making the decision for.
So.
I agree with that a hundred percent.
(13:36):
So, so I got a question for you.
I was recently talking to a leadershipcoach, and she was talking about empathy and other things, but she was almost
analyzing me as we were talking, whichwas a positive thing because I said, I, you know, I don't think I'm a leader.
And then we kept talking.
She goes, Randy, every single thingyou said in this whole conversation is what a leader should be.
(13:57):
And I'm like, what?
Yes.
And then, but then she said.
Well, why don't you think you're a leader?
And I thought about it, and I'venever thought about this before, and I said, you know what?
I think it's the word.
I mean, when I, when you say leader, I.It's like you're up top and everybody's following you and you're in control.
And I don't wanna be that.
(14:18):
I wanna be at the samelevel of everybody else.
I wanna be together.
And I think that's part of empathy.
I don't want to be the onesaying do this, do that.
And that's what I feelthe word leadership means.
And that's just probablymisinterpretation in my mind.
But I don't know if you had any,uh, uh, ever considered the word and the impact that word might have.
(14:40):
The word is intimidating.
Yes.
The word is 100% intimidating.
What I will say is that, yes, Ihave those, I will call it imposter
syndrome, inferiority, like Idon't believe I'm good enough.
Mm-hmm.
I don't feel like I'm worthyenough and believe me.
If you don't think I think about thatevery five minutes, you dunno me.
I mean, I think that breeds whatcomes from within you as a leader.
(15:05):
Whether you like it or not, isthat's what some people need.
Now I look at you as a leader.
And I'm like, I wanna, you know,follow what Randy's saying.
I agree with him a hundred percent.
He's leading me downa path of reassurance.
He's leading me down a path thatwhat I'm talking about matters and what I believe matters.
That doesn't mean I'mlike, oh, I'm like this.
(15:27):
I'm gonna just follow Randy and likeI'm being a follower because leaders.
People who are leadingneed leaders to lead them.
There's, it's not this oneperson at the top, right.
It's all, it's a collective groupof people who are trying to make
positive influence on other peoplewho either don't see it yet.
Some people who will never see it.
(15:48):
There are definitely folks out there thatI know who just won't get this concept.
Yep.
I think number one, 'cause it's eithernot important to them, number two, they're just satisfied with being who they are.
I feel like we all need to alwaystry to grow and get better.
So you're leading Randy.
That doesn't mean you're at the top.
It means that you arehaving a positive impact.
And that's what leaders, real leaders havea positive impact on the people around them because of the characteristics that
(16:14):
they believe in and that they followand that they profess and they act upon.
But the word leadership and beinga leader is super intimidating.
Yeah.
And a big responsibility.
And not anything you nor I take lightly.
Yep.
And believe me, I heard you sayyou question yourself and all that, man, you are a leader.
There's no doubt about it.
(16:35):
People follow you.
People are inspired by you andmotivated by you, which is really cool.
Alright, so let's go a stepfurther in this leadership or this empathy as much as anything.
And you talked about how the lackof empathy or how the leaders
that don't have empathy can have anegative impact on mental health.
(16:57):
And so you wanna talkabout that connection.
Yeah, for sure.
Let's take tax for a great example.
Let's just take peoplewho are involved in tax.
I know for myself, when I firststarted to learn how to do taxes,
now obviously I took classesand those don't mean anything.
You know, we're all studying togetherand filling out the tax return together.
(17:17):
You don't really learnanything like that in school.
Sorry if you're big into education,it didn't help me anyway.
But once you get into real world andyou start to actually do tax returns, there is a level of leadership to
lead people through the process ofwhat tax prep really means, you know?
You need a mentor to teach you how todo taxes 'cause it's a different animal.
(17:38):
Nobody knows the entire tax code.
Not one person in the universenope, knows the entire thing.
A lot of people know specializedareas, Tri-Merit, for example.
I mean specialty tax credits.
There's not a question in the worldand anyone's mind that Tri-Merit leads the pack when it comes to that.
For somebody like me.
I'm great at really, Iwould say, simple returns.
(18:00):
And when I get into anything reallydifficult, I call on my tax partner.
But when I first started to learn,so where does the lack of empathy, I recall when I first started learning
how to do tax returns, I would preparea tax return, leave it on one of my partner's desks at the end of the day.
And when I came back the nextday, I would have it back on my desk and it would have an F on it.
(18:20):
And the F was like, you suck, basically.
Yeah.
And it was like, figureit out on your own.
Okay.
It's one way to teach.
It's a different way.
You know, like you figure it out, you'regonna learn more by figuring it out.
I respect that.
But when it came to partner meetingsand the conversations around,
you're never gonna be a CPA, you'renever gonna be a tax preparer.
(18:42):
You're not smart enough.
You're not this, you're not that.
Now I looked at thisparticular partner as a leader.
I looked at, I thought she wasthe smartest person I knew.
I thought, you know, she's somebodyI wanna be in business with.
I think we could do great things together.
You do different things than I do, butyou could also teach me and I could teach
you some things and we could, like thiswould be a great opportunity together.
(19:04):
But instead of building up the peoplearound you, and there are people out there, this is where the empathy comes in.
Some people find that, well, if Ijust knock her down and just every
day knock her down a little bit more,then I can continue to be the leader.
She'll be my servant of sorts.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't really carehow it makes her feel.
Yes.
(19:24):
So, you know, and I recall when Ileft, I'm like, I will never treat.
Whether they're partners or employeesor colleagues or whatever, I will never treat them without having the empathy
of understanding what I say to them isgonna impact them on a personal level.
People will say to me, well, you gottatake the emotion out of business.
(19:46):
I get that.
And there are areas we can control that.
Like pricing for example.
We take the emotion right outta that,but when it comes to dealing with people.
We have to have an elevated sense ofthat empathy to ensure that though we wanna correct them, we wanna
correct them so they get better, notcorrect them, to knock them down.
And I think that's a level of careand concern we all need to have when we are in fact helping people.
(20:11):
And so I know for myself, with, withmy team that I have currently, there's only two other people besides myself.
Thank God.
You know, I just, I wannahave that empathy for them.
In every interaction that I have,and I wanna be like, okay, you know
Nicole, let's jump on a Zoom 'cause weneed to fix the way you're doing this.
Dawn't worry about it.
I didn't know how to do it either before,whether I did or not is irrelevant.
(20:34):
I didn't wanna make her feel inferior oruncomfortable in any way, shape or form.
Rather, I want to leave with, Hey listen,I've screwed this up for so many years.
Let me show you because I'dbeen there and I get it.
That's just putting other people beforeyourself and other people's feelings.
And the fact that by the way, youdon't freaking know everything.
And another scenario, the worsttime to correct people are when they're under pressure.
(20:59):
And I'm gonna use softball for an example.
'cause it's a great example and it's true.
Think about a freshman that comes in.
Geez.
You know, let's say she's upto bat for the first whatever, it doesn't even matter.
She's up to bat.
She's trying the best she can.
She wants to stay a starter.
So she's up there and she swings the bat.
Swings the bat.
Swings the bat.
Strikes out the kids, first of all,after they've struck out, after you've
(21:21):
made a mistake on a tax return, afteryou've screwed up a journal entry.
Is that the best time for a leaderto get in your face in whatever capacity, whether it's in your face,
or to take the bat outta your handand say, this is why you're not.
You're not hitting the ball.
'cause your head's out.
Your head's out.
In front of everybody that's there.
(21:41):
Is that a great way to teach someone?
I believe not.
I believe it's not because in thatmoment of a strikeout, in that moment of screwing something up on a tax return,
which we all have done and we'll continueto do as we all are human, is that the time or the moment to address it?
(22:02):
And that's where a personwho's in a leadership role.
I don't know if it makes that person feelbetter, you know, maybe they truly believe
that's a productive opportunity, butit's, it really isn't in that capacity.
So I've seen a lot of, and again,in various situations, various scenarios where I just like cringe
(22:22):
at the moment to be like, alright,they're already at their lowest.
Mm-hmm.
Why do I wanna kick them evenharder while they're down?
And that's where empathy, you know what?
Pick the kid up.
Pick up the tax.
Hey, listen, you know what,we'll get the next one.
Dawn't worry about it.
Next tax return, let's, I'm gonnagive you another partnership return.
Let's make sure we nail downthat guaranteed payments.
Make sure we allocate them andso that the one partner doesn't get the big K one, right?
(22:45):
So because it's a hundred percentallocated to them, like let's work together on that, right?
Because.
That is something you and, andLet me back up a sec, Randy.
I know what I'm, I'm takingover here for some reason,
you're allowed to take over.
This is something like I just, I thinkone of the things that for me is a primary
indicator of why we need to think aboutit, and there's memes all over the place.
(23:08):
You see 'em on everysocial media platform.
We see 'em over and over again and wejust go, oh yeah, I've seen that before.
Listen.
At the end of the day when you pick upa phone call, it's another thing with clients as it relates to them as well.
Let's say you pick up the phone and it'sthat guy again, you pick up the phone and be like, Hey Randy, how are you today?
(23:29):
How are you?
How's it going today?
Before you even get into anythingelse, hey, how are you doing today?
Yep.
And actually, listen, this gets crazy.
We're gonna get crazy on this podcast.
You ask them how they are.
You let them answer you
right?
We are so programmed tosay, Hey, how you doing?
(23:50):
And that's it.
That's where you're like, I don'treally care how you're doing.
I'm just asking it.
'cause that's polite.
And my parents always told me to do that.
But really the empathetic part ofasking someone how they're doing is an indication, an example of empathy.
Then listen to what they have tosay because they may be calling you about an issue around taxes or
(24:10):
their books or financial planningor whatever they may be doing.
When in fact, momentsbefore that their cat died.
Yeah.
We misinterpret a lot of emotionbecause we don't allow ourselves to get a little bit vested in other
people, and when we don't do that,we can appear to be unempathetic.
Maybe we're not, butwe've gotta practice that.
(24:32):
That's the key.
We've gotta practicethose types of things.
Simple.
I agree.
You just in that last five minutes, Ijust realized, and I knew this before anyways, why we're such great friends?
Because you talked about empathy.
I. You talked about vulnerability,saying when you went to somebody,
it's like, Hey, I've messed thisup before I make these mistakes.
Here's what I've learned from it.
(24:53):
And you showed vulnerability.
Passion obviously came through.
That's a big topic for me when youwere talking there, people first, I. That I talk about all the time.
Oh, and transparency evencame in there as well.
So you like hit all my key things sothat I guess it's a no-brainer that first day you and I connected so well.
(25:13):
'cause we have, we look at theworld I think very similarly.
So that whole conversation is great.
One of the things we didn't touch onis that in the book you talk about betrayal in leadership and how.
That affects things.
So why don't you give us an example ofwhat you mean or, or how portrayal comes
into play with empathy or the themeof what we're discussing here today?
(25:34):
Yeah.
From a leadership perspective, forthose who are looking to you, you're somebody like Randy, we talked
about, like we wanna be out therehelping people improve their lives.
Whether it's through improving theirpractice, they can make more money so
they can spend more time with theirfamily, or whatever the case may be.
Whatever you're doing.
To help other people get throughtheir lives and their scenarios, and they look up to you.
(25:54):
They look to you to be a leader.
What I believe can happen for thosepeople who are in a leadership position that are not practicing empathy, and
they're not practicing transparency,they're not practicing the things that we've talked about, those people
who are looking to you for that will,at some point, this will happen.
(26:15):
At some point, they will feel betrayed.
I. What you're saying and whatyou're doing and the way you behave and the way you act.
A lot of them are buying all in.
They're buying in, they're in,they wanna follow, they wanna be a part of, they want to please you.
They want to impress you.
They want to.
(26:35):
Have a pat on the back.
They want those things.
Mm-hmm.
That's a natural human nature.
I mean, I never wanted my mom tobe like, you're a piece of crap.
Like that would suck tohave a mom like that, right?
Yes.
And you, and of course a mom is aleader, or she, let's just say moms are in a leadership role just like dads.
So thinking about that, when youbuy all in and you think you're following the person that you believed
(26:58):
you should be following and thatyou were, this person really is.
Portraying the things Ithink they're supposed to be.
And then what ends up happeningis there's some kind of an action, there's some kind of a moment or a
series of moments where they haveshown what I would call true colors.
Because people can act.
(27:19):
You can act like you have empathy.
You can act like youactually care about people.
You can act like that, butthat can't last forever.
There are true moments that mayhappen in which you'll say, wait a
minute, that's totally the oppositeof what I thought you were doing.
And now I'm seeing something totallydifferent and that betrayal can
(27:42):
will, number one, canon likely willruin whatever that relationship was.
Whether it was an employee, employer,coach, player, coach, coach could
be CEO vp, could be manager, and thepeople that work underneath the manager.
And that is where it can negativelyaffect somebody as a person.
(28:03):
Because listen, if I'm working forsomebody and I got a manager and they've shown their true colors and
now I can't respect them, I can'tbelieve in anything that they're professing, I can go get another job.
But that doesn't mean.
I don't have some baggagefrom that prior manager.
Now that negatively affects that person,this person that's affected in a way
(28:25):
that now they're gonna have a reallytough time trusting the next one.
Now, let's say you get,you know, two strikes.
Now you've got this manager,now you got another manager.
Now you go to the third one.
Now you're really damaged.
Now I'm like, oh, for two, is it me?
Yeah.
Now, now you're questioning yourselfand yeah, like there's so many things that come from that, Randy.
(28:45):
That we've now had people in leadershippositions who have ruined the opportunity.
Well, I say that lovery softly and loosely.
Everyone gets to decidehow it affects them, right?
So you either can, now I'm apsycho, I will power through things, I will run through walls.
I am just that kind of person.
But I, everybody has that.
(29:06):
Not everybody was eitherborn or brought up that way.
I don't know if I was born thatway, but I'm just, I'm a fighter.
I'm not.
No one is gonna.
No one's gonna ruin the opportunityfor me because that's just, but there are some people who just don't
have that strength within them, andthose are the people I wanna fire up.
I wanna pump those people up.
I wanna help them believe in themselves.
I wanna help them understand whoeverthat person was is not everybody.
(29:29):
That's one of the things that webring it back to the beginning
where you find that tribe of peoplethank you into a tax council.
Yes.
That's an extra thousand dollars.
So thinking about that, it'sagain, like I told my family.
And I, I think I said thisin the beginning, and if I didn't, I'm saying it again.
Either I did or I didn't.
You become the people you're surroundedwith, understanding that there are situations where you may have a manager
(29:54):
or a supervisor or something that youcan't make the change on that, but you can make a change in your attitude or
just get the heck out because nobodydeserves mental abuse in any capacity,
especially from someone who is appointedand put into the position of a leader.
Then they don't act uponthose characteristics.
(30:15):
And I hope those people who have theauthority to put people in leadership positions, take this conversation
seriously and understand that whoyou're hiring and who you're appointing, understand who those people are before
you put 'em there, because we can't havethese people ruining lives any longer.
That was awesome.
It was an awesome place to, I thinkprobably wrap it up, but there's a couple things you said that I have to point out.
(30:41):
One is you talk about howyou will run through walls.
I've seen you run through Christmastrees, so I believe, you know, we can
put a link to that video on the podcast.
Yeah.
You wanna explain whatI'm talking about there?
Yeah, so the family used to all goand get Christmas trees together and then one daughter left.
So we did that didn't work.
And then Kevin started working onSaturday, so he couldn't go and then he just didn't wanna anymore and whatever.
(31:06):
And Emily and I said, we're notgonna get rid of this and we're gonna have continue to have fun.
And so she and I would go.
We started this, I thinkit was actually 2021.
Wow.
Was the first year.
Just her and I and we wentto the Christmas tree Farm, same one we go to every year.
We don't even care if theyhave a Charlie Brown tree.
We're never leaving that farm.
We went there and you know, when you gottacut down a Christmas tree, you're not, you know, you gotta use one of those hacksaws,
(31:27):
you gotta lay on the ground and you reallyneed some core strength to saw entirely through that tree in order to get it down.
And so it was just Emily and I, and I'mnot in the best shape I was in before.
Emily's in great shape, but stillit's just awkward to do that.
We would get like a quarter of the waythrough the tree just about halfway, and we're like, we're not asking for help.
(31:49):
We don't ask for help.
We're, bro, we don't do that.
I said, Emily, you know what?
Move over and I ran and I was notreally in the right gear for it, but I ran and I just tackled the tree.
The, actually the first coupleattempts I bounced off of it.
And then by the third attempt I took thetree down and now it's a tradition and now we've added on four of her friends.
(32:12):
Now come everyone videotapesand it's a big thing.
So we now take downour own Christmas tree.
So that's that.
I love that story.
So it is proof that you arecrazy and you'll run through walls or Christmas trees.
Yes.
I'll what you were saying aboutleaders, just a few things when you were talking about coaches.
I've seen the coaches that are just.
(32:33):
Doing what you said not to do.
Someone makes a mistake, and that's thetime where they yank 'em out and they sit in the sideline and they yell at 'em.
I've coached with people likethat and people that I, I really
do like, but I don't like 'emin that situation, and so I.
Yeah, that I think is, at leastI've seen a lot more positive
impact by leading with empathythan I have with leading with fear.
(32:58):
And that's what I think that isright there is leading with fear.
So completely agree with that.
And then I. The other thing is, I justhave to mention this, when you talked about, you know, parents and being,
you know, what you learned from themis, I'm actually writing a new keynote presentation right now, and it appears
that the start of, it's going to be oneof my dad's sayings, which when we were
(33:20):
kids, he would say, he would always say,you can do anything you put your mind to.
You can be anything you wanna be.
And it's like.
That is just positive reinforcementrather than the negative, and that
I always look back to and I thinkthat's been a major impact in my life.
Just hearing that as a kid.
(33:40):
Yep.
Absolutely.
And you know, that's, he is so spoton and I, and I tell people every time
I'm talking to people about, you know,what do you wanna do with your firm?
The biggest struggle for people isthey want to grow their firm is fear.
That's number one.
And the only place that that resides,there's only one place that resides.
And it's inside your head.
Right.
And if you can minimize that voice offear, you can do anything you wanna do.
(34:04):
Yep.
And that, and the sad thing is that's the.
Yep.
Oh, that's it.
That is, that is it.
Now, honestly, with me, I think it'smaybe I've gone too far at times
because I don't have that fear andI, I don't see the risk all the time.
Right.
But that goes back to myparents, you know, you could do anything you put your mind to.
(34:24):
And that's it.
Yep.
Your mind is in charge.
So, and then one final thing is,obviously this was great information.
We talked about the book.
If people wanna find the book, seethe book, read the book, get the book,
find out more about what you're doing,where's best places for them to look.
I'm kind of in a lot of places.
Uh, LinkedIn is usually probably theeasiest and the best to, you know, send a message or whatever the book would be.
(34:49):
I believe it's almost released on,we're having some issues with Amazon, with the whole logging in the thing.
But anyway, it will be onAmazon if it's not already.
If you want a copy, DM me or send me amessage in LinkedIn with your name and address, I'll mail you a signed copy.
It's really about, it's not aboutselling books, it's about getting the word out and helping people.
Really embrace what the messageof empathy really needs to be.
(35:11):
So I'm happy to, to sendany copies out to anybody.
I want my signed copy.
I got you buddy.
Thank you.
Alright, well Dawn, anything you wanna,I, you did a great wrap up there earlier.
Anything else you wanna addbefore we finish up today?
I could do go on for forever, but Ithink my, the biggest message is folks.
I know you see it on memes.
(35:31):
I know you see it on social media.
You may think it's cliche.
You may think like, oh, I'veheard this a million times.
Then if you've heard it a million timesand you're not practicing empathy and
you're not really actually caring aboutother people, try today, start today.
It is a behavior.
It's something that you can learn.
It's something that you can change.
And I also wanted to thank you,Randy, for allowing me to come on, but also for writing the Forward.
(35:52):
There's nobody better out therereally riding the ship, just like getting the ship where it needs to go.
When it comes to mental health and someof the consequences of lack of empathy
does result in some pretty terriblethings that can happen to people.
I think we all knowwhat I'm talking about.
I've experienced it numerous times,unfortunately, between friends and family, and we need to stop that and a lot.
(36:15):
Of what we can do is just start to bekinder to other people, have empathy.
You never know who's sitting on thetop of a bridge right now, ready to go.
And there are many examplesof a simple conversation with somebody where they will stop.
And I have a friend ofmine, this happened to.
Last year, and she sat at a bar and wassitting next to someone, and she was nice to the guy, and they had a conversation
(36:37):
and he said to her, I want you to knowthat I planned on killing myself tonight.
Oh my.
But because of this conversation, Irealize how important my life is and that I need to do something different.
If that's not impactful about havingthe way you treat other people, then
there's nothing else that can changeyour mind about how we need to behave.
Amen.
Well said Dawn.
Well, Dawn, this is goingto be a great episode.
(36:59):
I can't wait for it to be released.
I really appreciate, well, a couplethings, your friendship and being on the show, so thanks for being here.
Love you buddy.
Thank you for joining ustoday on the unique CPA.
You can find the show notes fortoday's episode and learn more about trimer@theuniquecpa.com.
(37:21):
Remember to subscribe and leave afive star rating on your favorite podcast platform, and be sure to
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