Jennifer Abbott & Andrew Aston, The Human Element Company

Episode Transcript
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Joshua Maddux (00:08):
Welcome back to the Voices of Business, a Santa Clarita
Valley Chamber of Commerce podcast.
It's good to be with you.
I'm your host, Joshua Maddux.
My co-host Corey.
Nathan is off on, oh wait,Corey, you're here today.

Corey Nathan (00:20):
I am, I am.
I've been persona non grata thelast few episodes, but I appreciate
you bearing with me, Joshua.
It's good to see you, man.

This is good to have you on.
This is where we talk about business inthe Santa Clarita Valley all over the
country and in our own backyards here.
But a lot of what we talk about iswith business owners and leaders that
are in our own community, I'm superexcited to have this conversation
today with Jennifer Abbott and AndrewAston from the Human Element Company.

(00:53):
Good to have you guys on.

Jennifer (00:54):
for

andrew (00:54):
Good to be on.
Thank you.

Awesome.
So I think the first thing out of the,out of the gate here is, uh, Andrew, your
title is Founder and Chief People Officer.
what, what does thechief people officer do?

andrew (01:11):
Uh, the summation of a chief people officer is, um, you
could change it with chief bottle,washer, chief, uh, dishwasher.
It, it pretty much means if somethingneeds to get done by a human, I'll
throw myself into the, into thechasm or whatever needs to get done.
I throw it in.
So it's, it pretty much, ifthere's an issue or a challenge,

(01:33):
I'm gonna be the spear tip that.
Usually

So, founder and intern Got it.

andrew (01:40):
founder slash intern would probably be a better description.

I love, I love that.
Uh, yeah, just inter interchangethat with everything.
And then Jennifer, yourself, uh,so you are the fractional CHRO and
H HR consultant over at the HumanElement Company, uh, C-R-C-H-R-O.
We've had a lot of, uh, guestswith, with fun acronyms.
Uh, what does that, whatdoes that one stand for?

Jennifer (02:05):
Human Resources officer.
And so our company is a staffingand HR company, and the inception of
that was that it was always staffing.
And then when you have a staffing company,you have a lot of employees on payroll
that come on and off and on and off.
And so I got very, verygood at the HR part.
And then, uh, people just startedasking us, Hey, can you do what

(02:28):
you do for your company, for us?
Uh, so it, it morphedinto human resources.
So we do staffing and hr. So I'm overthe HR and Andrew's over the staffing,
which is the people part of it.
But we're all people.
We do all the people stuff.

Got it.
Got it.
So obviously you guys run the HumanElement company, you know, like you said,
staffing, hr, um, based in Santa Clarita.
Are most of your guys'clients here locally or is it
sort of all over the place?
I.

andrew (02:59):
So we do have close clients coast to coast.
So we help clients from New Yorkto San Francisco to San Diego.
Um, but we do have a, a, a largecontingent of clients in Santa Clarita
and the Los Angeles County area.
Um, Jen could speak more to theHR clients, which I think are
mainly based out of Los Angeles.

Jennifer (03:20):
Yeah, so staffing is something that can obviously
be done completely remote.
Um, you know, we meet with everyperson naturally, hr, the, what,
what I do with HR is definitely moreof the human touch in the company.
So I try, uh, to work withcompanies that are commutable.
The furthest one I have is in Irvine.
Um.

(03:40):
a lot in Santa Clarita.
Yes.
And if not, Santa Clarita, um, theValley, Los Angeles, orange County.
But realistically, most of thecontacts are from Santa Clarita.

Well, and I imagine that's partly due to the fact that
you, you guys are chamber members,you're at events, you're the
expo and all that type of stuff.
So, well, and I know like HR laws, HRlaws change so much state to state and,
you know, a little bit harder to probablykeep up on, you know, San or California's

(04:12):
as hard enough to keep up on, uh.
You know, you start throwing otherstates and counties and districts
and all that in there and luck.

Jennifer (04:20):
is, is that California is probably the most stringent.
So if you follow California, you're

True.

Jennifer (04:26):
in a pretty good spot.

Yeah.
Use that as, as the rule of thumb.

Jennifer Andrew, I noticed that you both have Toronto
somewhere in your background.
Is that where you're both from?

Jennifer (04:41):
Yes.
Yes.
Um, well, I, yes, so I am a born American.
My parents were on a transfer here inthe seventies and I was born in New
York when my dad worked on Wall Street.
And then, uh, we were moved allover the us and then, uh, tragedy
unfortunately happened to our familyand we were moved back to Canada where
I was three years of age and raised.

(05:03):
And that is where I met Andrew.
And the big joke is at our wedding,he stood up and said, I'm only
marrying her 'cause she's American.
And we all laughed andthought that was so funny.
And 25 years later, here we are, we'vebeen here for 22 years, I think 23 years,
years.

andrew (05:21):
23.

Jennifer (05:23):
a year after we got married.
So, jokes on me, I guess in the end,

Is, did you come directly to Santa Clarita?

Jennifer (05:30):
go.

andrew (05:30):
So, no, we, we eventually, uh, we moved initially to Pasadena
for our arrival, and then we ended upspending, um, a little time in Los Fel
like, I think everybody who comes toLA does it's Las Fel or Silver Lake.
And then we got.
We got serious about having afamily move to Arcadia, and we
were in Arcadia for almost 10 yearsbefore we moved to Santa Clarita.

Oh wow.
What, what drew you toSouthern California?
Were there business, uh,opportunities out here?

andrew (05:59):
Uh, can I get, can I run with this one, Jen?
It's a good story.
Um, Jen and I, well we, we did a favorfor a family friend who happens to
work for the airlines and because wehelped out their family, they gave us
two travel passes to anywhere in theworld, but we had to use it before we
were given like three months becausethe, the credit was gonna go away.

(06:20):
So we decided to visit a friendin Southern California, and it
was probably in January or Fe andit was like minus 14 in Toronto.
had a house, we both hadcareers, we didn't have kids.
And we came down and there were SantaAna's and it was 78 degrees and we were at
the Cheesecake Factory in Marina del Rey.

(06:42):
And you can imagine the conversationthat happened at that over, you know,

Jennifer (06:46):
It was me.
I was the problem.
I looked at him,
like, let's do it.
Let's do it.
Let's move here.
And we went home, packed up, got allhis visas organized, packed up and drove
across the country in our twenties.
And

andrew (06:57):
Yeah,

Wow, that's funny.
So, so you know, things like the roseparade and stuff and you know, when they
do that and it's, you know, 75 watchingthat actually drives people here.
Um,

andrew (07:16):
That's that.
That's why people pay theweather tax every year.

yeah.
Yeah.

Jennifer (07:22):
the business

That's crazy.
Yeah, there's plenty, plenty of those.
Um, so obviously looking at like theHR and the hiring side of the business,
like what got you guys into the talentacquisition field, hr, all of that.

andrew (07:49):
Well, um, Jen, why don't you start with your, your, your background is a lot
more, um, interesting than mine and staff.

Jennifer (07:58):
Andrew's been
since the beginning of time.
and he's worked for many companiesand then decided to go out on his own.
I, on the other hand, have a morecolorful background in the sense
that I actually graduated, um, from.
Um, Ryerson in Toronto with, um,a in dance was my major and I came

(08:20):
to the States when I came to theStates thinking I could teach here.
Um, it didn't work out that way, but thegood news is, is the first night that I
landed here, um, I met, um, an executiveat USC and was hired the next day at
USC and I worked there for 10 years, um,and worked through auxiliary services.
And then I had three childrenunder the age of five.

(08:43):
So I stepped away from USC 'causethe commute from Arcadia to USC was.
A lot with three childrenunder the age of five.
And, um, Andrew had already had avery successful staffing company at
at this point, and then he exited thatstaffing company and started his own.
Um, and that's where I got involvedin all of the HR part of it.

(09:04):
Um, and then I decided to
jump in.
I went and got certified.
I'm an SEP certification with SHRM andum, that's how I got into all of that.
So I haven't been in it as long as he has.
Um, and like I said earlier, when,um, Andrew had clients and, you know,
they would come up and say, Hey, canJen do what she does for your company?

(09:25):
For my company?
And that's how this evolved into, nowit's word of mouth and, um, but so I,
I definitely have a colorful backgroundcoming, coming into this Andrews is,
is a little more boring, I'm surehe can tell you, but he's been in
staffing since the beginning of time.

andrew (09:43):
Yeah, I started, um, just, uh, Y 2K, so it's 25 years now.
Um, and my story is I went to gointerview for a company that in Canada,
there's four national banks and I wasin banking, online banking, and, um.
I got to meet the owner and theysaid, you know, this is what we do.
We sell these applications built on VisualBasic, um, for financial institutions.

(10:09):
And I said, what's that group over therethat looked like really cool people?
And they said, that'sour staffing division.
And I said, well, can I talkto them and talk to them?
And that's how I got my start andI've been doing it ever since.
So it is really quite boring

that's the career tra trajectory.
Saw a group of cool peopleand been doing it since, um,

andrew (10:29):
that was it.

Jennifer (10:30):
yeah, and my brother also owns an agency in Canada, so it's, and
my sister-in-law works for a massiveglobal company in talent acquisition.
So it is in the DNA in our family.

nice.
So been in talent acquisition,Andrew for, you know, a long time.
What.
Led you to of founding orstarting your own business.
What led you to that?
That shift,

andrew (11:03):
Um, I think the dynamic shift came from being able to kind of direct things.
I always tell the story when weonboard our employees, and this goes
to kind of the heart of who we are.
We pay our contract employees aday early, we pay on Thursday.
And one of the reasons we do that isI worked as a director for another
company and the owners happened to betravel in, in France and they had an

(11:24):
issue with their finances or banks.
And so I get a message Fridaymorning that I have to let 47
contractors know that they're notgetting paid that day on a Friday.
And it was

oh, a horrific experience.

andrew (11:38):
Hey listen, there's been an issue with the bank.
We can't get your checkout until Monday.
that was one of
big
of
that happened to me doing thisjob was like, if I'm ever a

time ever found.

andrew (11:51):
or starting a company, let's pay a day early.
'cause I wanna make sure thateven if we have a challenge with
the banks or there's IT outage
that happens, it still gives us a day torecover to make sure that person's paid.
Because my assumption being an immigrantto this country where it, you're paid
weekly and you're trying to pay yourrent and your bills and things are tight,

(12:12):
is that people live check to check.
So that was one of the
for us as the human element company.
I. Could we hold onto it another day?
Yeah.
Would it make more sense,interest, all of that stuff.
But the human piece says if there'san issue, we still have time.
We still have 24 hours to recover,to get that person a live check or
get those funds direct deposited.

(12:32):
And knock on wood it, it has happened,but we've never had it go past a Friday.
my gut was telling
that that was one of the considerationswhen, you know, it was like, what
am, what am I doing working for a bigcompany where everyone's a widget?
Or do I want to be part of acompany that everybody is a human
being and is treated that way?

(12:53):
If that makes sense.

It, it seems so like backwards to have that statement
of like, human, you know, treatingpeople like humans when it's
human like and human resources and

Jennifer (13:11):
You'd be

it's, uh, surprised.

Jennifer (13:12):
mean, it's,

Oh no, I know.
That's why I'm saying that because humanresources, nine times outta 10 is like
files and numbers and doesn't meet thisquota or does it meet the statistic?
And if it doesn't, then is that numberis no longer in that file cabinet.
It's in a different file cabinet, whichmeans someone just lost their job.
Um,

Jennifer (13:33):
that's different
HR consultants typically don't workwith, um, the employees of companies.
They'll guide the C-suite or they'llguide the managers, and a fractional HR
director gets to work with the employees.
So I meet everybody at everycompany that I work with.
They can call, they can text, they canemail, they can bounce things off of me.

(13:54):
So that's where like my human element isvery different than just a consultant that
goes in and Andrew and I really, reallyget to know all of our candidates, all
of our clients, all of the employees.
It's really, really important to us.
And, and then we attract amazing companiesand amazing clients, and the longevity
pays off amazingly when it's done.

Yeah,

Jennifer,
sorry.
Go ahead Josh.

go for it.

No, I was curious when you're interviewing potential candidates.
What, what do you find are the orderof priorities of what they're looking
for for a next chapter in their career?
Is it about the money?
Is it about the benefits?
Is it about the location?
Um, maybe some combination ofthose things, or are there more

(14:43):
pressing priorities that you findyour candidates are looking for?
Uh, you know, as a higher order?

Jennifer (14:53):
so Andrew Andrew's the one who deals with the candidates.
I deal with employees.
So it's, it's, that's a great question,Cory, because when I first meet
employees, I do kind of a SWOT analysisand I ask them their five to 10 year
plan, what drives them at the company,what makes them come every, every day?
Do they wanna stay with the company?
And I'm gonna say 99times out of a hundred.

(15:13):
The employees that are at the companiescurrently, Andrew's dealing with
candidates that aren't there yet.
It is culture, culture, culture, culture.
Um, naturally we needmoney to pay the bills.
And there's this big, there'sthis big debate in the HR world,
is it really about the salary?
And, and, you know, you have differentgenerations that will say yes and no.

(15:35):
But in my experience, right, and certainlyright now culture, um, there is also,
and Andrew can speak to this morethan I can, um, there's still, they're
really still dealing with this, like RTOreturn to office hybrid work from home.
That, that is, seems to bein most companies right now.
It's still a very big subject, whether theemployees like it or not, or whether they

(15:59):
love it and that's part of that culturethat they love, the flexibility of that.
Um, but Andrew, as far as candidatesgo, what would you say, Andrew?

andrew (16:09):
Well, I will tell you, speaking with candidates on a daily, you know,
eight, eight hours a day, 10 hours a day,five days, six days a week for the last
25 years, I would say the top three, uh,to reinforce what Jen says for internal
employees is my first question in LA isliterally because of RTO is the commute.

(16:29):
not salary.
It's where do you live?
Where's the job?
And is it on site?
So that has become the prioritywhen we're discussing with
candidates about opportunities, iswhat does that commute look like?
And is that five daysa week in the office?
First question, the second question
is gonna come down to contract.
The hourly rate in the salary range, isthat gonna be, uh, you know, sustainable

(16:52):
for them to keep the lights on?
And then number three right awayis the culture of the organization.
What are the people like?
What is the company doing?
And is it something that Ihave a runway for a career?
So to validate what Jen says, it's in thetop three for sure of candidates applying.
And then obviously it makes senseonce you're working that the
number one thing is the culture.
It shifts, it morphs, right?

(17:12):
Because you've accepted the job, thecommute's acceptable, the salary's
acceptable, there's a runway.
So the number one driving factorof that person staying is going
to be the people and the culture.

Jennifer (17:23):
Yep.

So I, I wanna pick up on that for a second, for
both, uh, candidates as wellas, uh, companies I noticed.
That a number of companies paya lot of lip service to culture.
Oh, we're all about the culture.
Um, but I, I don't know if you'veexperienced this, but I, I walk
into a, a lot of different companiesand there are some companies
where you can feel a difference.

(17:45):
You'll sit down with the head ofthe company and they'll talk about
culture, but you just walk throughtheir hallways and it feels.
I don't know, like a hospital at best.
Um, there are other comp, not thata hospital is a terrible place to
work, but um, but there's a certainfeel to it that's very gosh, cold,
I guess, I guess you could say.
And antiseptic, yes, sterileis a good word for it.

(18:07):
Um, there are other companies when youwalk in and it's almost like walking
into a mist and you can tell whetherit's a conversation that two people are
having in the hallway about a, a, a, aproject that they're working on, or the
bullpen, if there is one, how peopleare e even the way people are sitting at
their desk if, if they're in the office.
There's just something, like I said,like a mist that you can feel that people

(18:30):
genuinely enjoy where they're spending.
And who with whom they're spendinga majority of their waking hours.
What do you think those different do?
First of all, do you agree and do, haveyou experienced those differences as well?
Second of all, what do you thinkthose differences are made of?

Jennifer (18:46):
I'm gonna take this
wait,
first.
' cause I'm, mine's so different than yours.
I'm betting.
So, when I am hired, Corey, I'mhired because the owners, the
principals care deeply about theirorganization and their people.
They want me to get under the hood.
They want me to know if theiremployees are happy, they wanna
know if they're compliant.
So my clients.

(19:08):
I'm gonna tell you more than 99% of thetime have the most fantastic culture.
So I get this Amma, I get to go intoall my companies are amazing 'cause
they don't wanna hire me if they'renot and their employees love it
because they have somebody to talk to.
And you know, we've had instanceswhere I'm so happy you're here.
It just shows that the companyloves us so much and cares.

(19:30):
And so I get the pleasure of workingwith amazing cultures all the time.
Andrew, on the other hand, has probablymore of a mix because they're staffing,
which is so different than when I'mcoming in to nurture a, a workforce.
Go ahead Andrew.

andrew (19:47):
Yeah, so.
You.
I agree with you, Corey.
A hundred percent.
There's, there's a Issa Quois when youwalk into an office and people look
at you and smile and get up from theirdesk and be like, oh, can I help you?
Did, did you need a coffee or a water?
Like it's natural.
You could feel it right away.
The energy, you can't, I. Quantify.
You can't put a a, you know,quotient on it, but it's there.

(20:08):
'cause people are like, oh,who's the stranger in the office?
I wanna say hello.
And they feel comfortable andconfident to get up and engage you.
The offices that are scarier whenyou walk in and there's silence
and everybody's kind of glintingat you, like, who's this coming in?
And those are the kind of key
that we're like, oh boy, here we go.
Why now?
I wonder why they're hiring

they're hiring

andrew (20:30):
those are the companies that like when we go visit them, you
could pick up on that right away.
We are very, very lucky and

very.

andrew (20:37):
that a lot of our business comes from referrals.
So 20% tends to affiliate with the top20%, which tends to refer those top 20%.
And as Jen says, if acompany is looking to, um.
Better their culture,increase their growth.
And it's just not a HR number.
Like, I need six more developersto get this project done on this

(21:01):
time, and then they're done.
You could really pick up on that.
When you walk through and youmeet the executive team, it,
it's, it's, it's clear as day.
So, and there's no way to put a, like afeeling on it or one person or like, this
leader does this or does it this way.
'cause there's so many different companiesthat have different cultures that have
that feeling and they're, difference indiversity of their leaders is amazing.

(21:25):
But it has that feeling, likeyou said, it's like a mist.
You walk in where people are happyto be there and you know, they see
you in the hallway and they're like,oh, you're going to the bathroom.
And three people on the way down thehallway, like, do you need something?
Can I help you?
Like, they're looking to help out whereother, other companies are like in their
cubicles with their blinders on theirheadsets and not making eye contact.

(21:45):
You're like, oh boy, here we go.

Jennifer (21:46):
Yeah.
And it's the same for when I walkinto companies, Andrew, because
I, you know, I'll visit companiesevery, usually twice a month.
I try and get into the office to seeeverybody and, um, I don't get the, oh
my God, hrs here, somebody's gettingfired or somebody's, I get the biggest
reception always, which is amazing.
And to the, to the point that actuallylast week I was at a company in Pasadena

(22:09):
and we were a little disruptive inthat office and it interrupted a zoom
and I was like, I'm not normally.
know, welcomed with suchloudness and Oh my God, Jen, we
haven't seen you and welcome.
So, I mean, I, I really, really geta good HR vibe, which sometimes, I
mean, I would imagine consultantsgo in and they get the bad vibe.
But again, that goes back to the culturesand the companies that Andrew and I get

(22:31):
to work with because their leaders havechosen us, which is really, it's really a,
a, the human, it's the human side of it.
And it's really cool to playinto the human side of it,

That's cool.
Yeah, I, I imagine when, uh, abusiness hires an HR consultant
to come in and start havingconversations, it's not a good thing.
Um, at least that's, you know,typically how it's perceived.
Um, So that's good.
So you guys touched a little bit on.

(23:05):
Sort of the back to office remotework, like a lot of those sort of,
you know, you touched on that element.
I imagine that has changed,uh, fairly substantially over
the past four or five years.
how much of that shift have you guysseen in the sense of businesses who are
a, you know, let's say a Santa Claritabased business that has an office in

(23:26):
Santa Clarita and in 2019 all they wantedwas Santa Clarita talent plus 10 miles,
where now maybe they closed the office ordownsized and their team is distributed.
Or what does that change look like?
How have you guys seen that affectboth the hiring and then also sort

(23:48):
of the HR and um, and that element.

andrew (23:51):
Well, I'll take the hiring piece first.
What we're seeing for localbusinesses is, um, are doing RTO.
Return to office.
They want that personal touch and thoserelationship and team building and culture
building, everybody was impacted, right?
Everybody went remote.
Everybody did what they couldto, to get through that piece.

(24:11):
And I feel that the clientsthat I'm working with now is,
you know, it's back on site.
We gotta have people here togreet our customers, to be on the
phone, to team build, to go forlunches, to go for happy hours.
So, and I'm seeing that both withthe local businesses and my larger
enterprise companies that are across,outside of Santa Clarita, the, the,
the, the mantra is return to office,team building, feed on the ground.

(24:36):
Now they may have have the ability tohandle remote, but it's still, hey,
you're gonna be in the office this amountof times per month for team building.
That's what I'm seeingfrom a hiring perspective.

Jennifer (24:47):
Yeah,

Got it.

Jennifer (24:48):
I, my clients are definitely a mix.
I have some that are completelyremote, some that are hybrid.
Um, some that are all inoffice and back to office.
Um, RTOs definitely over thenation, a trend right now.
Um, I think the companies, and thisis just my opinion, um, this isn't,
this isn't on data, but, um, I thinkthe companies that have, um, an RTO

(25:11):
and either allow some sort of hybrid.
Or what I'm really finding iswhat the employees are wanting
is the special circumstances.
So, um, knowing that people have workedfrom home, so if their washing machine
is broken, or, and I'm not making this upguys, like it's everything or, um, they're
getting furniture delivered or, and I, andI know this doesn't sound like a priority

(25:35):
at work, and it's, and it's, and, andit's not for the business, but when we
talk about that culture and some of thecompanies that are like, yeah, we're gonna
let you have special circumstances, weare RTO, but you know what, if you need
your bed delivered and you have to bethere for the delivery person, they can
only do it Monday through Friday, Friday.
Or God forbid you are animalsick and you can only get into
the vet. you know, on this day.
That's where that culture is reallyplaying into effect with the RTO.

(26:00):
I think, and this is just, like I said,my opinion and what I'm seeing right now
is those who are RTO and it's completely.
You're in a hundred percent.
There's no special circumstances.
You know, you're gonna take a vacationday or you're gonna take a sick day.
Um, they're seeing someattrition from that.
But if you can bring people back tothe office and you can either one,
do it hybrid, even a Friday or aMonday, or you can allow your person

(26:25):
to be human still, I think that'swhere we're seeing the success.
The success right now.

Yeah.
Yeah, I know our team for mybusiness, we're entirely remote
and we run a just flex schedule.
Like we'll have team members who areon at o'clock in the morning and they
work, you know, half a shift there,they're off in the afternoon and work
in the evening again, or, you know,that, that flex is back and forth.

(26:55):
Um, you know, take a Friday off andwork a half day on a Saturday, like,
You know, that flexibility is, is nice.
Um, as long as it doesn't impact, youknow, a client meetings or deadlines
or any of that type of stuff.
I think that's the biggest expectation.

Jennifer (27:13):
people, you know, owners and principals ask me that all the time.
You know how, how, how do we deal with it?
Well, you are gonna have to manage it.
I mean, it has to be managed, it has to be
And so you can see what trends, sixmonths, you know, if this person's
always at home or, you know, there'salways special circumstances.
It does have to be managed,but I think it can be managed.

Yeah.
So do you guys see, like, are some of thespecific trends in both HR and or staffing
that you guys see local businessesshould pay attention to right now?
Or, or, you know, things overthe next six to 12 months?

Jennifer (27:53):
go

andrew (27:53):
I'm gonna jump in with AI because if, if you're not paying attention, you're
gonna, you're gonna lose some things.
And I think businesses need to be awareof AI impacting people's ability to,
um, put together literally the mostperfect resume ever in the world.
Um, as well as a LinkedIn.

(28:15):
having some tools to, youknow, kind of get through that.
Everybody now has an incredibly powerfulcomputer in their pocket, right?
Where we didn't havethat 20 years ago, right?
It was a resume, a referenceletter, everything else.
And you had to do things traditionally.
Now a 21-year-old could writeliterally the most incredible
resume with two years experience.

(28:37):
Um, so I just think paying attentionto the technology and going back to.
I, going backwards, but goingto more, the human element
side will help alleviate that.
Have a meeting with someone.
Don't, don't just take a phone call.
I mean, we're paying attention to it,uh, because people are using AI to
answer questions on a technical basis.

(28:58):
That's scary to me.
Like, I mean, if you go to Joe's Plum,and let me just break it right down for
a Santa creative business, Joe's PlumbingCompany, and if he gets on the phone and
is talking to the owner who's been doingit for 30 years and knows everything about
plumbing and there's AI in the, you know,earpiece answering all the questions,
gonna sound like an absolute rockstar.

(29:18):
When, when can you start, canyou start on Monday at night?
Well, that's gonna be a total disasterif that's being, you know, someone who's
been an apprentice for six months but isreally technically adapted doing that, or
the local accounting company that's justlooking for someone or the local admin.
So.
Pay attention to it.
It's, it, it can be used.
So I think if you just take somehuman steps about meeting the person

(29:41):
and having conversations just likethis, you really get a sense that,
you know, someone's not using ai.
And Jen, I'm not pointing outyour earphones by the way.
Um, I'm just saying having thatconversation really prevents
that from being an issue.
So, and, and, and I mean that as a smallerbusiness, because they have so much more

(30:02):
to risk with, each individual hire canbe critical to their smaller company.

Jennifer (30:06):
Yeah.
And it happens moreoften than not, actually.
And I wish somebody was feeding me answersin my AirPods right now, but they're not.
The trend in hr, especially in SantaClarita right now, is compliancy,
um, which is my superpower in hr. Ilove to come into companies and get
into their books and make sure thatonboarding is right and offboarding is
right, and we're doing evaluations andI nines right now is the biggest with

(30:27):
ICE coming into companies, obviously.
Um.
I am going to tell you that Ihave not been to a company yet
where they've had perfect I nines.
Um, so that is a, that's usuallya monster of a project for me.
But that's a trend right now isjust making sure that with all,
everything coming out in laws and,you know, in California we have so

(30:49):
many HR and employment laws that,um, the trend here in Santa Clarita,
people call me and they're like,can you just get me compliant?
Let's go, let's get into my books.
And, um, those I nines arereally important right now.

I touching on the AI element for a second.
I will say I saw a thing on Reddit,uh, this was probably nine months ago.
Um, or a guy was taking job descriptions,'em in size, one font in white
text at the bottom of his resume.
And so he'd take the whole job descriptionand then stick it at the bottom because

(31:26):
his resume then matched a hundredpercent with the job description.
so he went on Indeed or somethingthat was using, I, I don't
know what platform it was.
He went on one of the job listing sitesthat was using AI to help match people.
he would upload andapply for a hundred jobs.

(31:47):
And he had like a. acceptancerate to interviews.
Um, and he'd get on the interviewand the person's like, oh, do
you know about such and such?
He's like, no stinking clue.
And they're like, actuallypull up his resume.
And they're like, wait, youhave a degree in this field?
Like you have a degree in, youknow, accounting and you're applying

(32:08):
for a physicist's job, and how,how did this resume even come up?
Like we don't even understandhow it came up in the system.
And that's where, um, you know,Chevy when AI first AI chat first
came out, like Chevy stucco chatwidget on the bottom right of their

(32:28):
website and like no filtering.
You could just have it dowhatever the heck you wanted.
And that's where tools andtechnology is really helpful.
And I. But when we are doingthings such as looking at a hundred
people and which one to hire, likewe still need a human involved.

(32:50):
Um, now you can have a stackof resumes and be like, which
one did such and such again?
And great.
Like it helps filterthrough that a little bit.
But there still needs tobe some human involved.

andrew (33:04):
Yeah, it just
on to your point too, not onlybeing able to do that because I've,
I've heard not only that story,but it happening in my industry.
other concern that you have is whenyou rely on technology as a disruptor
to stack rank candidates, theperson who builds that technology.
Of stack wracking those candidates,you're gonna get the top 10 people

(33:27):
that all went to the same school,

Jennifer (33:29):
love you,
was

andrew (33:30):
look the same way,
from the same background, everything else.
So when it comes to like, okay, well hey,I want to create this culture, right?
And you want to have, you don't wannalook around the room and have everybody
look the exact same and talk theexact same and all want, everybody
wants to go to Chipotle at 1130,

Jennifer (33:49):
education.

andrew (33:51):
right.
Same education, same forfraternity and sororities.
Maybe take that technologyand, and use it.
Absolutely.
But also take the time tolook at all of the resumes.
'cause you, you, you might
that gem in the rough that's goingto solve a problem or take that
culture to the next level where no onewants to leave, if that makes sense.

(34:14):
And that's, that's the danger of theAI of using these large a TS systems,
that it just becomes a production model.
then you get trapped in this.
Well, why are we all thinking this way?

Yeah.
Uh, yeah, a hundred percent.
I, there was a, there was a, I thinkit was one of the late night shows
that did a trial run of one of those.
And they just took a bunch of resumesfrom a company, put 'em through it,
and then what it does is they, theypull in a list of all the employees,
their roles, their education, alltheir cvs for the current positions.
And then they say, now go find mesomeone, well, in one of the departments,

(34:48):
like five guy, like there was likethree people in the department who
all their first name was John andthey all went to the same school.
And so it's criteria for that roleis you have to be named John and you
have to have gone to this school.
And that was the criteria that theAI figured out meant, meant the
candidate qualified for that role.

(35:08):
And so it's like,
it didn't care about the degree, it justcared about the school and the first name.
so, yeah, there's obviously flaws.
Um, but like you said, it can be helpful.

Jennifer (35:18):
absolutely.

andrew (35:21):
Like,
example, we, we go out and we search,and I'll just give you a prime example.
We, we will come across a resume that is,um, five years old or has a six year gap.
And so AI and I love technology,we use it, but we'll take the
time to reach out to that person

Out person,

andrew (35:40):
years.
And it could be, you

and it could be you

andrew (35:43):
right?
An amazing human being that we wouldnever get to unless we picked up
the phone and called like, hold on asecond, you were a project manager at,
you know, Viacom and Sony for 12 years

12 years

andrew (35:57):
year

and there's a five year gap

andrew (35:58):
assistant right now.
What's going on?
So
is gonna skip over that resume right away.
We'll take the time to call and email,set up a call, meet them, be like, oh,
I took, you know, five years off to,for whatever, take care of my parents.
It could be any human story.
And then you realize, whatam I dealing with here?
I'm dealing with an amazing human being.
And then you, then you start that process.
Well, AI and technology is gonnaskip that person right away.

(36:20):
They're not even gonna be considered.

Jennifer (36:22):
Yep.

Yeah, they took off five years to take care of a parent
or take care of a child, and thenthat admin assistant was their
way to get back into the workforceand just get back into something.
But to AI, it looks like theirskillset has dropped off and they
don't know what they're doing anymore.
But yeah.
That's crazy.

andrew (36:39):
sitting on a 12 year project manager who's done some of the biggest
releases of movies we've ever seen,blockbusters and you know, has dealt
with the biggest executives, mightbe a good fit for a local company
looking for an office manager.
Just a sec.

Yeah.
So looking at the Human Elementcompany, obviously you guys focus
heavily on a People First solution.
looking at, you know, Santa Claritabusinesses who are struggling to
hire and retain top talent, whatare tips or strategies that you
guys would recommend for them?

andrew (37:16):
I am gonna take this one.
it, it, it against ourbusiness, but not really.
I would suggest a really whatit is that they need for the
company, for that organization.
Once you have that, um.
Go out and post it on your LinkedInand ask your friends and family

(37:37):
who they know start there, thenyou, you know, post it on the job.
All the job boards, youcould get lucky there.
But you also have, you know,today when you go on LinkedIn, if
you post a job on LinkedIn, easyapply, you're gonna get a hundred
applicate applications in 10 minutes.
And outta those a hundred, let's justsay 70, had no business even applying.

(37:58):
Um, if you interview 30, there mightbe five that you wanna speak to.
Three goes to you and you're downto two, and they may not be a fit.
So my, my advice would be to clearlyidentify what you're looking for,
put it out into the world in thesocial media, ask friends and family,
everyone that you know, um, chamberof Commerce, everybody that you know,
you might get lucky with a nephew andniece or recent graduate to get it.

(38:21):
Um, and then obviously if you arestruggling with that, I know a really
good staffing company that's human.
Focused that you would reach out to.
And, and I mean that because a lot of myclients will finally say to me, Andrew,
I knew I was gonna call you, but Iwanted to see if I could find it myself.
I'm done, like after 10 interviews,I've, I've wasted now 10 hours
of my work week as a owner of thecompany, and I can't find the person.

(38:45):
Can you please pre-screen thecandidates so when I get someone, I
know they're gonna fit for the commute,for the salary, and for the culture.

Well, and I'll, I'll speak to that slightly just
from my experience, like so I've.
Run a digital agency.
I have a staff of eight, and over theyears we've hired all different people.
And when Covid first hit, Iwas looking for outbound sales.
And I get on an interview withthis person and they go, yeah, I

(39:17):
just don't like talking to people.
I just, I like, I'm like, wait asecond, you're looking for an outbound
sales role and you don't want totalk to anybody Like during your day.
I'm like, do you understandthe job you're applying for?
And few years ago, we were lookingto hire, um, uh, someone as well, and

(39:39):
we were getting people who had zeroexperience, who were looking for like
mid six figures on the pay scale.
And I was like, it what?
Like what are you even like, youhave no experience, you've never done
anything, anything in the industry.
You're looking to get yourfeet wet and you're hoping
to get $400,000 a year, like.

(40:00):
Okay.
I went through so many interviews.
I got so fed up with it.
I just said, I threw the toweland I was like, forget it.
I'm, I'm just not dealing with this.
And I ended up, I'm in an agencymastermind group, and somebody in
the agency group was like, Hey, talkto this talent acquisition company.
And I was like, I, I just, I'mnot looking to pay a company

(40:23):
a ton of money to do that.
when I actually sat down and had theconversation with them, they're like,
oh, this is what we're gonna charge you.
And I was like, oh, I've already wasted,like you said, I've wasted, I think I
did like 20 something interviews and.
I was just burnt out and done.
And so we did three interviewswith three candidates, and at the

(40:44):
end of the call they were like,okay, what are your thoughts?
And they set 'em up likeback to back to back.
And so I was like, I was on the callfor all of like 45 minutes or an hour
or something, and at the end of itI was like, so I have to pick one.
Like, I'm not sure I can, 'causethey're all like, and so that
for me, they knew where to go.
They, they already hadtalent pools lined up.
They know who to tohave conversations with.

(41:06):
And I was like, okay.
Um, but it was very much a shift.
Um, and it's hard because as abusiness owner oftentimes you're
like, yeah, I can do this.
I've done this before.
I've hired someone,like I can do it again.
But I don't wanna spend20 hours doing interviews.

Jennifer (41:22):
only that, if you, if your, if your candidate pool isn't necessarily
the best candidate pool, and then youend up hiring somebody, because like you
said, you're now, you're left with twothat you didn't think either one were a
great fit, but you've already spent somuch time on it, then the HR part piece
comes in, like the onboarding and thetraining and the amount of money you
spend, and then maybe it won't work outand then you have to do it all again.

(41:42):
That's, that's the danger ofit for sure, not getting the
right person in the right role.

So I ha I have a cup.
Go ahead.
Go ahead Josh.

Go for

I have a couple questions and then I, uh,
unfortunately I gotta bounce.
This has been a great conversation.
Um, so one is, do youdo targeted searches?
What they, uh, sometimes referto pejoratively, but I, I would
embrace the term is headhunting.
Um, and if so, are there some rulesof the road where it's, um, you know,
you don't break certain rules so thatit's not a party foul business foul.

(42:13):
Uh, so do you do some of thosetarget searches for, especially
for those senior roles?

andrew (42:19):
So, absolutely yes.
It's probably one of our, our superpowersis to go out and get that executive level.
Um, when it comes to ourorganization, there are zero rules
till it hits an agreement with us.
IE, if you are a client of ourorganization, human Element Company,
we would never pull someone fromour existing client to put into a

(42:42):
place, even if it meant a huge careergrowth and a huge opportunity for us.
That's just an absolute no-no,because you burn your reputation.
when it comes to us headhuntingdirectly from any client.
Um, if they're not assignedclient of US wide open Fairgate.
I've, I've had CEOs call me and threatenme about trying to take their team

(43:05):
members and I said, Hey, listen, Iappreciate that, but you may want to
meet me in person before you do that.
Um, and you listed your entire executivestaff online with all of their praise
about how amazing they are withtheir contact information as an FYI.
So if your expectations were that arecruiter like myself aren't gonna contact

(43:28):
Jane and John Doe because they're soamazing, maybe you want to take, that's
the risk reward of putting up yourteam online of how amazing they are,
is that you're basically advertising toagencies such as mine, that Hey, Jane
and John Doe are absolute rock stars.
And by the way, here'stheir contact information.

So Jennifer, I would imagine too.
That, that you would, um, you, youwould embrace that meeting as well,
because sometimes when you're recruitingsomeone, uh, they might say, yeah, you
know, I, I, I've really excelled hereand I feel like I've contributed a lot
to the company, but every day I walkin and I get screamed at by my direct
supervisor and I just hate coming to work.
You know, or, or there's someother prevailing reason that

(44:08):
they're leaving their options open.
Um, so is it, is that what you've I I,I would imagine that you could provide
some feedback to that company and bea valuable resource to the company
that you're actually recruiting from.

Jennifer (44:18):
and like I said, that's the difference that, um, the consultant
versus the fractional piece thatI get to know the employees and
I get to know what drives them.
Um, and so when we have thoseworkforce meetings, we're able,
you know, the principals or theowners and myself are able to talk
about strategy and succession plan.
Uh, never have we, um, recruited out ofone of my clients for Andrew's clients.

(44:42):
We, I mean, it actuallyhasn't even come up.
Um, I would never.
I mean, I haven't even thought aboutit till right now, but, um, I don't, I
don't think of the people that I workwith, all the employees as candidates.
They are extraordinary humans Iget to work with every day and I am
there to help 'em on their journey.

(45:03):
Um, and when they are either terminatedor terminate their own employment
there, I have never ever been like,well, I know this great staffing agency
now, if you need to, you know, speak,speak to somebody that's not I, it's.
I think I just wear such a different hat.
It's a,

Mm. Yeah.

Jennifer (45:19):
I just have such a different hat on that.
I don't even think that way.
Um, so it hasn't come up.
But I also, like I said, Ialso am dealing with all these
companies with fabulous culture.
So they wanna know if theiremployees aren't happy and what
we can do to make them happy.
Um, and if there is no growth,you know, there's that honesty.
When you look at pay bans and you lookat, um, um, succession and promotion

(45:42):
and, and the people who have greatculture can tell you, you know,
there is no more growth for you here.
So you have a spot here.
But you know, we understand ifyou need to go seek other places.
And I just, like I said, Ihave this, it's a privilege to
work with these amazing owners.
Um, so that's never come up
which is, which is the irony of it,is I work with so many people who

(46:03):
are coming and going out of jobs.
But no, it, it hasn't, ithasn't intersected yet.

That's awesome.
Well, I, I've got one other questionand, and then unfortunately I gotta
scoot here, but I'm curious aboutnegotiations in my experience.
Um, whether I'm hiring someone oradvising other companies, um, in their
hiring practices or advising, um, youngpeople, uh, or just colleagues of mine
that are looking for that next chapterin their careers, I've noticed that the

(46:28):
best matches, um, the best hires thatwe've made for one of our companies.
Um, or, um, you know, when I'mconsulting another company,
it, the money often comes up.
Last.
Um, but when we do, you know, andit's because to your point Jennifer,
it's always about other things.
Who are the people?
Who would I be working with?
What kinds of projects would be coming in?

(46:49):
What level of, uh, quality are you, uh,devoted to on each project that comes in?
How do you achieve that level?
What are the processes, etcetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Culture, obviously.
Um, and then last is off it.
The best matches is when, oh,the, the money sort of figures.
There's a narrow.
Banned within which the money,um, kind of makes sense.

(47:11):
Um, but I'm curious about thenegotiation style that you
tend to, um, advocate for more.
There's a couple general stylesI'm oversimplifying here.
One is I. You identify a person'smarket range based on their industry,
based on their job, based on theirexperience, based on their, um,
much, uh, of a profit center they areversus how much of a cost center they are.

(47:34):
And you can usually put that, maybe notan exact number, but with an arrange.
And then you start talking toyour candidate as well as your
client on that, um, on that range.
There's another style where a and alot of folks, I think make this mistake
where they say, well, I really want 100,uh, so I'm gonna ask for 150 and hope
that we end up, uh, somewhere aroundone 20 and maybe get a little bit more.

(47:58):
And then the, the company might say,oh, well they're worth a hundred, so
we're gonna offer 75 and hopefullymaybe we'll end up at, at 90.
And they do this used car salesman.
Now they got used car salesman,but that's the dance that they do.
Which style or is there some otherstyle that I'm not articulating here
that, that you tend to advocate for?

Jennifer (48:14):
So Andrew does all Andrew's the negotiator.
I fall in love with companies andso I'm not, I'm not good at it.
Andrew says I give awaythe farm half the time.
But what I'm gonna tell you from an HR
you've over 15 employees in the stateof California, you've got a pay ban.
you've gotta advertise that.
So there is only a rangethat you can be within.
If you're following, you're following,you know, as far as that job title goes.

(48:39):
Now can they make you, can they bringyou in as a manager and then Andrew
negotiates and they change the title toa director and they change the PayPal?
That's very complex and usually

that's very complex usually doesn't happen.
But as far the techniques,so that's the, that's.

Jennifer (48:51):
P piece of it from my hr. But as far as the technique,
Andrew can definitely speak on that,

andrew (48:58):
So, Corey, I agree with you.
The, sorry, Jen.
Um, I agree with you, the two styles,the latter style you described of
making it organic and starting atthis number and meeting in the middle.
I do not recommend you're gonnalose talent, you're gonna frustrate
your management team, you're gonnafrustrate your culture to that.
Um, I think it's really important, asJen does a great job with her clients

(49:19):
and I try to do with my clients, isestablish what that position is and what
the salary range is that is acceptablefor that company and for that position.
Once that's established,now you have the range.
What we do on our side as we establishthat range with the candidate on the
front end, it may not be the first thingwe talk about, might be the commute,

(49:39):
might be the culture and the salary,but it's gonna be in the top three
and we're gonna know that and we'regonna know the full-time salary range.
And we're also gonna know the contractrange because if a client flips the
script and says, actually let's trya contract to hire on this position,
we've already discussed that with them.
So having that upfront conversationis critical to, to get that together.

(50:01):
As Jen says, you know, companiesaren't supposed to hide it
and play this cat mouse game.
And if they're doing that, the candidatesthat we work with are probably gonna
get out of the interview real quickbecause they're not gonna want that.
Um.
People like transparencywhen it comes to salary.
And I always tell clients, you know, ifthey come back and say, Andrew, you know,
you're, you're your, your Jane Doe askedfor 120 and I, you we can't get there.

(50:27):
You know, it's a hundred k. There's away to cut that cake five different ways
between onboarding, maybe a quarterly,a yearly targets to hit bonuses.
Um, things like that.
You don't have to get to that that way,but you get to get to an overall package.
Again, leading to more of thatshoring up that amazing culture

(50:48):
like, Hey, we know you're worth 120.
Our salary band is a hundred k becauseit's gonna really mess up the team.
We want to keep stabilitywith the team, but if you can
quarterly targets for the year,there is this band that we're
gonna get you to north of one 20.
The team's happy.
Everybody's happy

Happy.
Everybody's happy because it'sa competitive environment.

andrew (51:08):
are similar,

Similar,

andrew (51:10):
is able to get to what

get to what they,

andrew (51:14):
wrong with

there's nothing wrong with

andrew (51:15):
about equal fair play,

Fair play,

andrew (51:18):
But
in a championship

Championship,

andrew (51:21):
trophy, right?
And so those leaders and top performersare going to outperform other people.
But the team is not outtawhack because they're

whack because they're all

andrew (51:30):
Right.
And not everybody,
everybody,
there's
of people.
There are climbers, there arecampers, and there are quitters.
Not everybody has

not everybody has

andrew (51:40):
it takes a whole village to get that one person to the top.
Right.
It's base camp one, base camp two,base camp three, and then summit.
Well, it takes an entireteam to get there.
And if one person summits, that's awesome.
It's a reflection of the entire team.
It's it.
It just because you're a base
setting up operations and safety protocolsdoesn't diminish you from taking the

(52:02):
summit of whatever mountain or whateverorganization goal you're trying to get to.

Jennifer (52:07):
employees wanna be at base camp three.
I talk to all a
are like, I love what I'm doing.
I don't want anything more you, you need

andrew (52:14):
Yep.
I.

Yeah, I like that.
I like that camper.
So, uh, climbers, campers, and quitters.
I like that.
Um, that's great.

andrew (52:22):
and there's, there's nothing wrong, like you could get to a certain,
trust me, if you ever, if you ever doa sport that's at high elevation, the
most fit human being you've ever met, ifthey get elevation sickness, it's over.
They're quitting.
I don't care
run triathlon all the time.
If their system doesn't do well at14,000 feet elevation, they gotta

(52:42):
get back down at period the end.
No matter how strong they're

Jennifer (52:46):
Yep.

That's awesome.
Well, with that I have to scoot, Ihave to go to, uh, 80,000 leagues
under the sea or something like that.
I don't know, whatever Jo, whateverstory Joshua makes up for me.
But it was great talking toyou guys and I hope I see you.
There's an event tomorrow night,so hopefully we'll uh, we'll, we'll
hook up then and talk some more.
Sounds good.

andrew (53:02):
there.
a face to a name, Corey.

Thanks so much, Joshua.
See you soon.

See Corey.
Awesome.
Well, so I wanna, you know, wrap thingsup here, um, as we're, you know, sort
of ending out our conversation, butwhat would you guys say is some of
the most important habits or mindsetsthat you feel like has contributed

(53:28):
to your guys' career success?

Jennifer (53:31):
Oh, that's a great question.

andrew (53:33):
Can I jump on this one first, Jen?
Okay, so, so I have a mantra themantra is never quit, never give
up, because you're gonna fail a lot.
You're gonna have so much obstaclesand things to overcome and challenges
that you're not in control of.

(53:54):
the psyche is, you'llget overwhelmed, right?
And it's like, Ugh, I, I'mnot gonna be able to do this.
Like, there's no way I can get this done.
Like I'm totally drowning.
I'm not gonna do it.
So I always say, peopledon't quit, never give up.
You don't eat an elephant at one city.
It's one little small bite at a time.

(54:16):
if you start your day, it's like,okay, what can I accomplish today, this
minute, this hour, this afternoon, thisevening, this day, this month, this year?
And take it in small bites.
It's less overwhelming.
That would be my advice.

Jennifer (54:34):
I should probably take that advice, shouldn't I?
Andrew?
I tend to eat a lot at one sitting in
Um, I think for me with, um, HRand, and really, um, adoring all the
people that I work with, includingthe companies and the employees.
Um, at the beginning I was.

(54:55):
invested.
Um, and I think I've had to protect my

I've had to protect my sanity

Jennifer (55:00):
am

and

Jennifer (55:02):
I'm at it.
I don't turn it off completely,but I'm able to quiet the
So if there's something happeningwith an employee and an an employee
or, I mean, you know the drillwhen you work with hundreds and
thousands of employees, there'severybody, there's, they're humans.
Everybody has a story.
And there's, there's gonna be somethingthat comes up at some point with them.
And I'm usually involved, um,my, I need to protect my sanity.

(55:27):
And so I'm able to quiet ita little bit after hours.
Now it's not silenced,
and, and, and don't ask me howI do that 'cause I'm not sure
it's just a skill that I'verecently been able to hone in on.
And I'm not sure if it was like the2025 or just that business is crazy
and I had to protect my sanity.

(55:47):
Um.
And I don't know that this wouldapply to everybody in, in small
business, but for me, I've needed toprotect my sanity as a business owner.
Um, and, and quiet, quiet the noise behindme and really focus on what's important.

Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I can see that definitely withyou, you know, the business side a
little bit as well and what's comingdown the pipe and who's struggling
as an employee and, oh, man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Definitely not the, uh, notthe position that's, uh, to
have very sensitive emotions.

Jennifer (56:24):
heart, let me tell you.
And
really, really adore all thecompanies and people equally.
Um, but I think that that's, that'spart of that superpower that I talked
about, you know, compliancy, but also,

Yeah.

Jennifer (56:37):
empathy and care for everybody, the employees and the employers.
They want everybody toflourish and be happy.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, there'sso many lessons to be learned
through, through all of that.
And I look at some of thedifferent lessons that, like I've
learned in business is oftentimescoming from like some of those,
uh, major losses or missteps.

(57:07):
Um, I'm curious, like, have you guysseen elements that you're like, well,
that was a dumb move on the businesspart or career part or whatever?
Like, definitely glad it happenedbecause we're here now, but, uh, yeah.
Would definitely not go that route again.
Is there anything for you guys

Jennifer (57:30):
Andrew, you wanna

that you guys have seen.

Jennifer (57:33):
I'm the perfectionist.
So it's we're, we havedifferent, uh, opinions on this.

andrew (57:39):
Y you know, uh, COVID was probably the biggest eye opener,
um, because we, our organizationwas breaking records of doing so
phenomenally well and on this trajectory.
And then to, um.
Not be prepared.
And to watch clients, all of our clientsin unison, like a switchboard in a,

(58:01):
like a high suspense movie, all turn offDDDD like in like all within 30 days and
shut down was really an eyeopener.
How, um, we truly are intrinsicallytied in this business community,
whether you're a small business,a medium, or an enterprise.

(58:24):
And I, you know, the, thebig guys are too big to fail.
That's out the window because

Yeah.

andrew (58:31):
we've all experienced Enron.
So that was the biggesteyeopener for, for me.
Um, I did a lot more on the enterpriseside than I did on the local side.
And so the lesson I learnedfrom that is Joe's um, plumbing
company is as important as Google.

(58:52):
Um, because of that fact is that you
when Joe's Plumbing Supply is gonna

supply

andrew (58:59):
the national supplier

supplier,

andrew (59:02):
whatever, and they're gonna remember that

they're gonna.

andrew (59:05):
um, where Google is much more likely to shut off that valve as a vendor
because there is not that HR Jennifercommitment of building the relationship.
So that, that to me wasa real eye-opener for me.
Um, Jennifer really helped me with thatbecause she has that unique ability
to, to look at people as an individualrather than as a. Big impressive

(59:27):
organization kind of the companies thatI've, I've, I've worked with in the
past, you get a little impressed walkingon these big campuses in San Francisco
and New York City and Rockefeller pla.
You get impressed by that andthen you realize, well, no, it's
actually the people behind, it'sthe humans that are the disruptors.
So that's the biggest thingthat I've learned probably.

(59:47):
Um, failing and then rebuilding whatis to treat every, to see everyone
and look at them holistically as ahuman rather than, who are you with

Jennifer (59:58):
Yeah.
And

andrew (59:59):
or who do you work with?

Jennifer (01:00:00):
to add on to that from what I see.
See, and I'm not necessarily speakingabout a misstep on my or Andrew's
or human elements part, but thebiggest misstep I see from companies
is, um, when relationships gosour in companies and then how the
employee is treated on the way out.

(01:00:21):
I mean, whether you're working them out orwhether you're firing them immediately or
it is, if you that employee like crap,they are going to turn around after
they're gone and you are gonna pay forit and you're gonna be treated like crap.
So be very careful how you treathumans because it will come back.

(01:00:42):
You reap what you sow andeverybody deserves a fair and
not ev I'm not gonna say fair.
That's not fair 'causebecause you have definitely
terminations that have to happen.
they are still humans on their way out,um, and needed to be treated as such.
And I do believe that if you, if youare kind to every employee, whether

(01:01:05):
they're, whether they're your staror whether they're on their way out
and leaving, um, and how you exitthem, I, Andrew and I have seen
this time and time again, when you

Joshua Maddux (01:01:16):
Time and time again exit.

there is going to be some sort of suit or some sort of
something coming back your way.
So be, so that's my big, that

that's my big that from where I sit.

is the exit.

I, I will say as, so I run a marketing agency and
when we have a company come in,you know, a new prospect, I will
oftentimes Google search the company.
What is their Google reviews?
Yelp reviews, what doesall this look like?
And there's been a few times where I'veseen a glass door page and there has been
7, 8, 9 employee reviews that are justleadership constantly changes their mind.

(01:01:59):
It's demeaning.
It's like, and I'm like, yeah, do I wannabe a contractor working with this company?
Probably not.
Like if that's how they're treating theinside, you know, in-house employees like,

Mm-hmm.

yeah, this is probably not a relationship I want to have.

yeah, That, I mean, you're
it shows up on Glassdoor, whether itshows up in a courtroom, whe I mean,

yeah.
Oh yeah.

are very important, and that's definitely key takeaway
is don't ever minimize an exit.

Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, I appreciate bothyour guys' time today.
Um, you know, as we sort of closethings out, is there anything that
we wanna leave listeners with?
Um, I will say, like in theshow notes, I'll have your guys'
LinkedIn for both of you personally,and then also for the company.
We'll have the website.
Um, but is there anything else,you know, that you guys want people

(01:02:53):
to know about, about you guys?

andrew (01:02:57):
Yeah, I, I just to reiterate Jen's point of exiting, um, offboarding
an individual, I think it's reallyimportant for companies to know that
they have tools in their basket, todo that gracefully if they choose.
So one being kind of humans, havingsomeone or a, a department like

(01:03:18):
Jen who can onboard that personwith compassion and, and treat them
well and, and help them their, youknow, next step, their benefits.
Um, but also I, this is aplug for human EL company.
We actually do outplacement.
Um, and we've done it for many, manyyears at the highest level to executives,
down to ground four employees, um, to.

(01:03:41):
Help companies have those companies,if they are part of a riff or a
layoff, to do that with grace andcompassion for their employees.
It's a small investment, but as youmentioned, like the Glassdoor, that'll,
that would reduce that almost completelyif you, if you make that small investment,
if you can, um, that, that really helps.
So I don't think people ever want tothink about having to do a layoff for

(01:04:03):
a riff, but when it comes to them, I,I want companies to know that there
are tools to help them with that.

Andrew has a great program where he goes into huge, huge
companies and he educates peoplewho haven't been, out, haven't
needed to find a job in 10, 15, 20.
These are huge executives who.
no idea or, you know, entry levelthat was last hired, first fired.
And Andrew goes in and educates, um,those that are being laid off and it's,

(01:04:30):
it's, you know, he goes into the room.
It's kinda like what I was sayingearlier with HR is like, oh my God,
hrs in the room and nobody likes you.
And Andrew walks in the room and they're,you know, what's this guy doing here?
And this, they're just fail,you know, they're just checking
a box that they need to check.
And by the time Andrew's done hishalf day or day seminar, you know,
he's linked in with all of 'em.
He is trying to help 'em, they reach outto Andrew with, you know, for guidance.

(01:04:51):
So it's, it's, that's definitely a greatpart of our company that we haven't,
we don't talk about that part of itmuch because it's not very positive,
but it is a great part of the company.

Yeah.
Well, and I think, I think the oppositeside of the way to handle a layoff.
I have a friend who was laid offand he woke up in the morning and
he like went to log in on his laptopand he was like, huh, that's weird.
My password's not working.
And about a half hour later he gota. An email saying, you have a, you
have a meeting this morning with hr?

(01:05:22):
And he was like, huh.
Yeah.
So he drove into theoffice and he walked in.
They're like, yeah, you're,you're, you're fired.

it's
backwards.
Turn it

andrew (01:05:31):
That is

okay.
Yeah,

andrew (01:05:35):
is the worst case scenario.
At least they met with them and
it via text or an email, so I'll give them
that is, that is just, youdon't have to do it that way.
You really don't.

yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
It's, and, and hearing companies thatlike do Zoom webinars with like 300
employees and put 'em all on Zoom andthen be like, okay, by the way, heads
up, everybody on this call is gone.
It's just
good.
Gone.

That's where Andrew
those, those out placements is withcompanies like that, unfortunately, but.

Well, and, and the element, Andrew, that you were just talking about
is coming into a business like that,providing a half day or a full day seminar
or whatever on that, like helping peoplebeef up their revenue, their, their
resumes, helping them do all of that.
Potentially you guys may be a resourcefor them to find their next job.
Um, and if not, then maybe you canhelp point them in the right direction

(01:06:30):
and, and whatever that might look like.
But that employee is now like, okay,well I'm not here anymore, but my
employer did help to the next, you know,to help me find my next employment.
Which, you know, looking back atlike a Glassdoor page, you know, if
there's a business with two and ahalf stars on Glassdoor, like, I'm

(01:06:52):
sorry, but nobody's applying for thosejobs that has, you know, good talent
that has, you know, the number ofapplicants they see is gonna be, I.
Much, much less.
So,
you know, it it, yeah, it, it's oneof those things where, you know, we,
we see in the marketing space, there'sa business recently that we saw that

(01:07:15):
was like one and a half stars on Yelp.
And they're, and Google, andthey're just like, I don't know why
our Google ads aren't converting.
And I was like, I know why yourGoogle ads aren't converting like
anybody, Google searches yourbusiness name and No thank you.

Yeah.
Yeah.

andrew (01:07:29):
that's

So,

I,

yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, for those who are listening,if you run a business and are looking
to hire or fire or retain, um, yourstaff, uh, reach out to the human
element company and, uh, it'd begood to, good to connect with them.
And, uh, they'll be atlocal chamber events.

(01:07:53):
As of recording, we've got one tomorrownight, um, there's an event, so, yep.
Yep.
This'll air after that.
But um, yeah.
So every month.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And the other one that I've beentalking about on the past few
episodes is, um, the Chamber Expo.
The Chamber Expo iscoming up later this year.

Yep.

andrew (01:08:14):
Yep.

Yep,

And Andrew Chairs the

yep.
I will be as well.

chair it.
Andrew's on the committee for the SmallBusiness Council and I chair influencer.
So there's, we're reallyactive in the chamber.
It's

Nice.

tool to Santa Clarita.

Yeah.
Oh yeah.
A hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
I was just talking to, with uh, d Thompsonon the last episode and um, we were
talking about the influencer stuff, so.
Awesome.
Well, as always, for those listening,please follow rate and review us
wherever you get your podcast.
You can find us at the Voicesof Business on social media.
I am Joshua Maddux on LinkedInand other socials as well.

(01:08:50):
You could find Corey at Corey s Nathan.
We'd love to have you as alocal business owner on the
show if you're a Chamber member.
So reach out and thanks for listening.
We'll see you next timeon the Voices of Business.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Jennifer Abbott & Andrew Aston, The Human Element Company