Week 1 - Richard II - (Act 4, Sc 1) The king deposed - The Rehearsal Room - The Working Actor's Journey

Episode Transcript
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>> Nathan (00:00):
Hi there.
I'm Nathan Agin. Welcome to the Working Actors Journey rehearsal
room. We started this project already. It's been four
years. Over four years, June 2020. It came out of what we could do
with all the time during the pandemic. we found
that having the time to deeply explore just one
scene over several weeks has really excited
everybody involved. and this month we are

(00:20):
embarking on a scene from Shakespeare's Richard ii. It's
the first time we are working on this play, in the
rehearsal room. Very excited. It's really beautiful play. Think it
has the most verse. it might be 100% verse. It's
pretty close. of all of Shakespeare's plays. So that's
great. and I will say, you know, for those familiar with John
Barton's Playing Shakespeare series that they did in like the
late 70s, maybe even early 80s, I see

(00:43):
this as kind of a springboard off of that.
This is an unscripted format. and in fact theirs was
heavily scripted. They really figured out what they were going to say before
they turned the cameras on. So this is really raw. You
really get to see what's going on. The wonderful way, that the
creative process comes alive in real time. for those
who are new here, what you're going to see is

(01:04):
not, you know, a final performance or hasn't been
rehearsed before this. Maybe the actors and director and
dramaturg have thought about it, read it, but you know, it's
all it's all ready to be explored together.
it's just a continued work in progress from week to week.
it's an opportunity for artists of different generations,
backgrounds to collaborate, learn from one another.

(01:24):
and what I love is that it's never been a top
down structure. This, you know, good ideas can come
from anywhere. And I think theater at its best
is like that. It's a true collaborative, art form.
I, do believe that the rehearsal room, these kinds of
spaces continues, the great theatrical history of
apprenticeship. People such as yourselves

(01:44):
watching can learn from, you know, professionals,
people working people who've been doing this 20, 30, 40 more
years. How do they break down text? What
are the questions to ask? How do you explore and
communicate? How do you take direction? How do you give direction?
all those great things can be part of this and
hopefully you can come away from this learning some tips and

(02:04):
tricks, and ideas and strategies for your own
work. we can be more conscious
about Casting here, when it comes to gender or
age or race than Peter sometimes can be. We can
explore things in different ways, which is a lot of
fun. and we can bring artists together from all over the
place. I know we have a number of people in Los Angeles,

(02:24):
tonight, but then we also have an actor out in
Hawaii. So through the miracle of this
technology, we can bring everybody together in the same room and
they can all work on the material. so
that's pretty much what we're doing here. If you want to
support the, project, right now, as you probably can tell if
you're on YouTube or the podcast, all of our sessions

(02:44):
that we're releasing are for free for you to just
enjoy and learn from. So if you
want, to support, that's great. You can go do that through Patreon.
But be sure to subscribe to YouTube, and the podcast so you
can get notifications of new stuff coming out. It,
starts just $5 per month. Super affordable for the whole
month. And you get a lot of sessions and good stuff. So

(03:05):
I'll quickly say thank you to some of our patrons. Joan, Michelle,
Jim, Magdalene, Ivar, Claudia, Cliff and Jeff. Thank you
so much for helping to keep the administrative lights on. that is
my, pt, Barnum, little spiel. I'm all done
here. I, will turn it over to the artists so you guys
can get into the material. if you have any questions and
you're watching this on YouTube, post them below. We'll try to

(03:25):
keep people, aware of that and keep the
conversation going offline. So that is
it. I'll ask the group to do some quick
introductions, of themselves and just
briefly where you are, your history, maybe with this play, if you
have one, and, what your
involvement, is for the next few
weeks. And that's it. I'm going to head to the back of the

(03:46):
theater. I will see you guys at the end and, have a great
session.

>> Will (03:51):
Thanks, Nathan.
so I guess, I mean, because Nick and
Jamal, I've never met you before. I guess let's just start off with the
introduction. So to sort of take that ball from Nathan.
I think that sounds great. So I guess, who are you? Who are
you playing? what's your previous
involvement with the show? And I think, because normally, obviously, if we were
in person, we'd go around the circle. But since we

(04:13):
are literally in a flat circle on this screen, I'd say let's
go with a popcorn model. So once you're done. Just toss it over to
somebody. So I'll start us off. my name's Will Block. I'm
an actor, producer, director, teacher. and I'm the artistic director of
the Porters of Hellsgate Theatre Company in Los Angeles,
California. I'm directing this. And, I've played
Richard II. I did it when I was 22. so I will
not speak to the quality of the work that

(04:35):
happened. and with that, I'll toss it over to
Jamal. Hey, hey. Hey.

>> Jamal (04:40):
It's really good to be here. My name's Jamal Douglas. I'm an
actor, educator, artist,
Soulful being first. And, I actually saw this
production in London after I left the old globe back in
2015. And I was completely
a different person back then.
and so it's exciting to be walking back into this with

(05:00):
new eyes wide open. and I feel like I'm starting from
one, as I like to do, you know, with Shakespearean histories and
going to school for. You can get so up in your head and out of your
body, or two in your body and not in your head. And so I'm
completely open. I'm really curious, as an actor,
to explore the nuance of relationship through the poetry that
is being said. And so that's what's vibrating

(05:21):
for me, walking into this space, this time around, and my first
time working on the show ever and putting my mouth
to these words. And when I was reading through it, I was hit with
emotion and certain parts physically. And so
I'm excited to see how that unfolds and how that sustains or
shifts the change. And I'm going to throw it to Nick.

>> Nick (05:39):
Thanks, Jamal. My name is Nick Cagle. I have seen
and worked on this particular play before,
and it's. I think it's one of the most beautiful
plays that I've ever read. I really, really enjoy the
poetry. they did a production of it when I was in
college, in London. I went to Lambda
and another group did a production on that.

(05:59):
And I was shocked and mesmerized by
it. And then I was lucky enough to work on it in Christchurch, New
Zealand in 2010.
And, that was quite some time ago. So
it's been really great for the last couple of days to sort of try to wrap
my head around it again. And it's a never ending
exploration of these plays, which is one of my favorite things about
them, is you can read them and read them and read them and still never

(06:22):
get to the bottom. so I'm really looking forward to
this. I think that we're sort of switching back
and forth on roles. I'm not exactly sure who will end up
playing, which is exciting. And, I'm grateful to
be here with all of you, and thanks for having me.

>> Will (06:37):
And I'll toss it up. Miranda, why don't you close this out?

>> Miranda (06:40):
Yes, sure.
Hi, everyone. I'm Miranda Johnson Haddad. I'm the
resident drama target in Noise Within Theater in Pasadena.
And then I've been the guest touring, for other shows.
But my approach to, dramaturgy
is through the Academy. my academic field
is Shakespeare, and in particular, Shakespeare
in performance. Because, I am always aware

(07:01):
Will's heard me say this more times than he can count.
But the plays were, their text. It's
valuable, certainly, to study them as texts, but they were written as
scripts, and I believe they don't really become
complete until they are in performance. So I always
feel, a debt of gratitude to actors,
whether it's on a zoom screen or in the theater who are. Who
are helping bring, that play to,

(07:22):
completion. this is my third time in the rehearsal room
with Nathan. I'm thrilled to be working on this
play. It's been one of my favorites.
Always when people ask me, what's your favorite Shakespeare play? I
cheat. The best I can say is my favorite play
in any genre. And this is hands down my
favorite history play. but the history plays are a lot more
interesting than I think popular

(07:45):
understanding believes them to be. And, so
I'm very excited to be bringing this one, bringing
this one into, at least partial completion. And
just in case anyone was wondering, Miranda is my real name.
As I like to say, did my parents have their wits about them or what?
So, really happy to be here with.

>> Will (08:01):
All you admired,
Miranda. well, thank you, everyone, for being here and
for saying yes to this. so I'm going to talk at you for
as little time as I can manage. Miranda
has suffered through more than one rehearsal process with me and so
knows that I am extremely long winded. Nick, and
Jamal, you're about to discover that, and I'm so sorry.

>> Miranda (08:21):
and plenty of pop culture references, friends,
Tolkien, Harry Potter, whatever it may be. I laugh at all
his jokes. I get them. I think they're funny.

>> Will (08:30):
I direct in Star wars references.
But I'll yap at you for a little bit. I'll toss it over to
Miranda, who would never say it herself,
but is truly like an
expert, like, is such a
fantastic resource to have in the room. and
then we're just going to dive in and we're just going to start messing around with
some text.

(08:51):
so, chose this scene. I just closed a repertory production
of Henry iv, parts one and two. my company,
we're supposed to do all of them. And it was time to do the fours.
And it was a massive undertaking and a
very rewarding experience. And part of that
we did a, ah, staged reading of Richard ii. I say
staged. We did an unrehearsed reading of Richard II

(09:12):
that went off very, very well because we got good actors, but I did
absolutely nothing to make it good. just, to give our audiences
context because this is, as everyone in this room knows, this is the
first play in an eight play history cycle. and Henry
iv, while being Miranda, I love Richard
ii. Henry IV might be my favorite two history plays, but
Richard II is a very, very close second for me.

(09:32):
and really, I mean, in my head it's all one long play.
But, Henry iv, pretty much
everything, that happens in Henry IV
has its genesis in this beautiful
play. and as I said, I'd done the play when I was very, very
young and I'd had a great time. but I was
reminded of just what a beautiful, lyrical tragedy it
is. I feel like if this play is programmed,

(09:55):
it is programmed in the context of the Guthrie just
did Richard ii, Henry IV and Henry V
in a three show rep. and it's often programmed
as the prequel, when the play
stands on its own as a beautiful piece
of writing, and is a really sort of, I would
say a profound meditation on
multiple fronts. and that's Shakespeare in a nutshell,

(10:17):
isn't it? I mean, he's always working on the macro, but
he's always working on the micro. Right. I think it
is in terms of contemporary
resonance. I think the histories
taken as a whole, and I'll sort of wear
my socialist badge
proudly on my arm today, but

(10:37):
the histories taken as a whole, I think to me,
resonate most acutely when they are
examined as an investigation into the
corrosive effect that power has on the human
condition. that the real conflict in all of these plays
is male versus crown, or woman
versus crown, as casting may be. We had a.
We played Henry IV as a woman and she did a beautiful

(10:59):
job. So I don't, I don't. I say. I say man is sort of Like
a catch all human versus
crown, soul versus crown, right? Is it
possible for a person to maintain their humanity
while wearing that kind of absolute power? and the thing
that strikes me, looking at all of them, and I say the eight play, I'm not
including King John or Henry VIII in this. But if you look at, if you look at the

(11:19):
Henriette, right? every king that we meet,
we get to see them both as a king and as not a
king, right? In some. Not always in the same order. But we get
to see them outside of that authority and inside of that authority.
And every single one of them has a beautiful
speech that are all variations on the theme of, well,
this sucks. in this play, it's the hollow crown, Henry

(11:40):
iv. Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown Henry V upon the
king. Henry VI might be my favorite, the homely
Swain. and then Richard III even has his own little version right
before the.

>> Jamal (11:49):
Battle of Oz revealed.

>> Will (11:50):
So clearly we're dealing, like Shakespeare's investigation
is how do these people deal with this
unnatural imposition, upon their humanity?
And Richard, in relation
to that investigation, is a really interesting play because we
see one man start as king and end as, well,
dead, but end as not king. and then you have

(12:10):
one. The other person starts the other king. Henry
IV starts as not a commoner but not king
and ends the play as the king. so you've got this,
you've got this seesaw effect, right? You have. And this is the scene, right? This is
the scene where power is handed from one to the other.
other things I just want to. I'm sort of.
I also wrapped, wrapped up in that, is

(12:32):
what is, you know, what is the nature of
identity, right? And I think this is where the
universal resonance and the sort of the micro
starts to come in, right? The macro is how
does this kind of pressure aff a person? How does this kind of
power affect the person, which some of us can relate
to, some of us can't. but where we get into the
universality of it is how does your position

(12:54):
in society affect your sense of identity? Right. it's the
beautiful line in the scene. I know no,
I for I must no thing be. That's not a
line reading. We're going to play around with that. But,
Richard gives up his assumed sense of self and we
are dealing with a man who has been king since he was nine
years old, and has been told

(13:16):
every day since then that he was God's anointed.
He's God's chosen. He can do no wrong. But we are
also dealing with
a uniquely perceptive mind,
an insecure mind, an insecure heart.
I think at the end of the day, a pretty terrified person
from the word God. but we are also dealing with

(13:38):
somebody who is possessed with
the same level of perception and the same
ability to comment on his surroundings with
devastating accuracy that is famously noted in, like,
Hamlet. Right? The only difference is this man
is born with a crown. and this is the scene where he gives it up
and he gives it. And the other. The only other thing that I'm gonna. That I

(13:58):
want to sort of make a note of,
just because it leapt out at me listening to this reading, was that at
no point is the crown demanded of him. And I think
this speaks to his perception, right, that
the very first person in this play
to bring up the idea of an abdication
is Richard when he is confronted by

(14:18):
Bolingbroke. now that could be read, and there's
room for plenty of discussion, but that could be read as
either him lying down and giving up, or that could be read
as, again, an extremely
perceptive mind, seeing which way the wind is blowing. And, no, this
is only ever going to go one way. And so what
emerges is this really fascinating story of somebody

(14:39):
who, when he was king, was
not indecisive, but certainly irresponsible, certainly
spent too much time listening to his yes men.
insulated himself from hard
truths. now
faces the hardest truth of all, that
his reign is coming to an end and there is nothing he can do about

(14:59):
it, really. And through that, through
calling that situation out and through speaking
honestly, is able to regain a certain amount
of power. this is an abdication scene.
Richard dominates it in terms of just
lines on the page, and through it is able to
deliver not just some of the most beautiful language

(15:19):
in the play, but some of the cattiest language in the
play. and some of the,
you know, he wipes the floor with
the people around him. He absolutely walks out of this scene.

>> Nathan (15:32):
Possibly.

>> Will (15:32):
I mean, but, you know, we'll leave it open to interpretation. But in terms of
what's on the text, he walks out of the scene with a mic
drop. so how do you get that person
to that place? And what is it about
this thing that they're wearing now in terms of who's
playing who? Because I know that is a question mark. you are both playing both.
So we've got two sessions ahead of us, and we can talk about how we're going to split up
our time, but essentially you know, to sort of. To call back

(15:55):
to Nathan's earlier reference to the playing Shakespeare. This is
our night of the Dueling Richards. so you are, you
are both going to play Richard and you are both going to play
Bolingbroke. probably, I think in terms
of today, we'll probably
switch. my thought is that I'd like to spend today sort of looking at
the text and making sure that we've got a good handle on exactly
what we're saying because it is beautiful language. But I think the

(16:17):
danger, and I don't have to time, I don't have to
tell you this, everyone in this room is a seasoned professional.
But just to say it, I think the danger
when working on really gorgeous
language is that we can rely on the beauty
of the language to carry us and we don't get
down to the sense of it. And I think that the, the really

(16:37):
sort of the interesting line that this play
walks is that we are always, yes, it is
beautiful. But, ah, there's still a
game being played and there's still
this, it is still argumentation.
and especially in this scene. So I want to make sure that we've got a very clear sense of that. And
then I think probably the way that we will structure this

(16:57):
is we will one
day Jamal will be playing Richard, Nick will be playing
Bolingbroke and then the following session we'll flip
flop him. and through that, you know,
in terms of like the production or in terms of
like what your Richard or what your Bolingbroke is, we're going to
discover that together today is about getting sort of

(17:19):
our sea legs under us when it comes to what we're
saying. And then from there I kind
of, I don't want to. The only thing I'll say
in the playing of it is I don't know that
either of you need to worry about putting anything on
for these characters. Let's see what happens if Jamal
is. What is Jamal as

(17:40):
Richard and Jamal as Bolingbroke. And what is Nick as
Richard and Nick as Bolingbroke? this is sort of
mirroring a very famous mirror. This is
mirroring a very famous production from the RSA in
1974, I want to say, where Richard Pasco
and Ian Richardson alternated the title role.
So this has a performance precedent. it sounds like
a backbreaking amount of work. but again, and this is, I

(18:02):
hope this is One of the last things that I say before I turn it over to
the brilliant Miranda Johnson had had,
is mirror.
And this is the last.
Mirrors and self
regard, are sort of
recurring themes. Richard is frequently
described as. Even after he's dead, long after he's

(18:23):
dead. Richard is described as vain. Richard
is described as shallow. In Henry iv, he's described
as the skipping king. and, of course
there's the conversation about, well, how much of that is history
actively being written by the victor. but there
is in this play,
and this is. We are in. It's interesting. I just finished

(18:43):
listening to Simon Russell Beale's autobiography. And he played
Richard ii, very late in life. He played it after he
played King Lear. but he played Richard ii in
late 2019. And he said that, like, they had
no idea the resonance that this
play was going to take on. But they did it in sort of the last year
before COVID redefined how we

(19:03):
engage with the world. Right. And that it ended
up retroactively working in this really beautiful metatheatrical
way. Because that is exactly what's happening in Richard ii.
The only other thing that I want to throw at you guys is that
Richard is the last of the kings who can actually
say, I am anointed by God, right? Because
Bolingbroke, whether or not Richard is a good

(19:23):
king, Bolingbroke is a usurper.
and it is Bolingbroke's status as a
usurper that is the engine behind the
entirety of the wars of the Roses all the way to
Richard iii, right? It's that random
guy, Mortimer, right, Who's in one scene in Henry
IV, Part 1. Everybody thinks they're trying to put Hotspur on the throne.

(19:43):
They're trying to put Edmund Mortimer on the throne. He's in
one scene in Henry iv, Part one. I think
I can swear on this. He fucks off for
three plays and then comes back in
one scene in Henry VI, Part 1 to tell
his nephew, Richard, future Duke of York, that he's the actual
heir to the throne. And then he dies. Which might mean that Edmund

(20:03):
Mortimer is like the most troublesome
character in this entire eight play cycle. What a
shit. but anyways, that is truly beside the
point. it is this sort of cardinal
sin. It's this breaking of the world, that is the
engine behind 100 years of bloodshed
in English history. And it is behind the schism.

(20:24):
And I think
it is testament to Shakespeare's, generosity of spirit
and is testament, I think, To Shakespeare's or
whoever wrote them, the company. They were a team
effort. But it is testament to this
play's generosity of spirit that
at no point is the actual act of

(20:44):
deposition taken out of
context. We are shown
just how bad of a King Richard is. We are shown
just how justified this is. and everyone gets to
go home and make their own decision.
All right, I've talked enough. Miranda.

>> Miranda (21:03):
thanks, Will. That was great. I agree with every single thing you
said. and I'm mulling over
a couple of things. Some of the.
When you talk about gender and how we can play around with
casting. M. The great
Fiona Shaw, of course, very famously played Richard
in the. I want to say. What was it? 1990?
1996? The mid-1990s. Directed by

(21:26):
Deborah Warner. And that you can find
that production to watch as well. I tracked it
down during COVID and that's remarkable. And then, of
course, more recently, Harriet, Walter,
played, Henry iv, in a, trio
of films put on by all female casts. the
Tempest, both parts of Henry iv
condensed, and, Julius Caesar. so

(21:49):
thank you for reminding me of that.
just very quickly about history and just sort of leaping
off from what Will was saying. this play
is so extraordinary, I think, because, I
agree 100% that we are shown that Richard
is a bad king and worthy of being
deposed. And yet, It also sets
into motion, as you say, this, Series

(22:10):
of, unfortunate events that just become worse
and worse and worse with each king. Until
finally we have Richard iii. And, he was
overcome by, of course, by Henry vii, by Henry
Tudor, thus ending the wars of the Roses, which, of course, was
not what people said during the time. They did not walk around
saying, here we are, you know, fighting the wars of the Roses, despite

(22:30):
that silly scene in, Henry vi when they're pulling off
a red rose and a white rose. So the sort of, as
you say, the victor gets to write. Gets to write history.
and yet, Richard was certainly, an
irresponsible, Ah, irresponsible king.
and yet he was also God's anointed. And I think what's so fascinating
to me is that. Is that Shakespeare, writes this

(22:50):
play and tells that particular story
and which balances, on the edge of a
Knife. and the Deposition scene in particular
was really, literally almost just considered
too hot to handle. It was not performed
originally when the play was performed at the Globe, very
famously, when the Earl of Essex, in 1601

(23:12):
tried to, raise up a rebellion against Queen,
Elizabeth. Elizabeth I. He
commissioned, the Lord Chamberlain's Men,
Shakespeare's troop, to perform, Richard ii with the
deposition scene in it. And he failed
to muster the requisite support. he was
arrested and he was executed for his
role, in that rebellion. And

(23:34):
Elizabeth is purported. Reported to have
remarked irritably but understandably.
To, one of her counselors. I am Richard ii. Know
ye not that so. Just the
way that history, you know, history begets art
begets history. And the intersection I think of history
and of art in this play in particular and in the
Henrys as well, Really, really fascinates me. as

(23:56):
Nathan mentioned, it's all verse.
There's a line of prose in it. and this scene in
particular, I think, is, So full of
theatrical and dramatic potential. There's just so
many. So many ways you can go. But as Will
says, Richard really does,
dominate the scene. and yet there are
so many moments in which that can be expressed. When I would teach

(24:19):
this play to undergraduates. Or sometimes I repeat this
technique when I'm teaching teachers. as I do sometimes. It
annoys within with the undergraduates. I went
to my local toy store. I got one of those little sort of fake kitty
crowns. and had them staging it. And
just. Just to have the physical embodiment of a
crown in the classroom. It just made it all

(24:39):
so real for them. And I think for us, as
well it can. When we are picturing this here
cousin sees the crown, and then what does he do? Does
he hold onto the crown? just countless
possibilities. and, I also want to
mention that as a performance critic. I'm
constantly thinking about other
productions I have seen of the choices in the moment.

(25:02):
If I bring something like that up, it's
just to give us another possibility
to reflect upon. And if I'm getting to be a
pain with doing that too much or it's being oppressive, just
tell me, you know. Great, Miranda. Thank you so much.
Let's move on.
because one reason I like to think why I'm able
to be helpful as a dramaturg. Is that I'm very, very

(25:23):
clear about where my gifts end and
yours begin. I'm not a director. I'm not an
actor. And. And, I offer things in the
spirit of. As well, collaboration and of
discussion. But that said, I'm just
elated to be working on this play.
It is the second tetralogy

(25:43):
that Shakespeare wrote. Even though chronologically
these are the events that come first. But he wrote
the first tetralogy, the three parts of Henry VI and Richard
iii. He wrote that, earlier. And indeed Henry.
Parts of Henry vi, we think, are a
collaboration. but this one, you can tell
he was really sort of hitting his stride. Probably written around
1595, 1596. He was writing

(26:06):
Midsummer. He was really, I think, beginning,
to branch out, to be braver as an artist. And you
can really see it in the. As well as the
lyrical, just gorgeousness of
the verse. It's just one of the most
beautiful plays, I think, linguistically
of any of them.

(26:27):
So just a few historical points there. I can add
others as we go along. But, I'm here
in service of all of you, which is,
I think, the dramaturg's role. And,
as another dramaturg
who's been active longer than I have. Ah, says the
basic role of the dramaturg is to provide information.

(26:48):
and the main qualification is you have to love theater.
So, that I
have, grateful to my parents who took
us to theater when we were very young. And I will say, Will you know
this, I think that the very first Shakespeare production I ever saw,
I was 11 years old, was in Stratford on
Avon in England, and it was the Peter Brook Midsummer Night's
dream. Yeah. In 1970. I was 11,

(27:10):
as I say. And that was just so
revolutionary, not just in terms of how we understand,
Midsummer, but how we understand and perform,
Shakespeare. And, it was a great. It was a great beginning.
So I'm really happy to be here,
everybody.

>> Will (27:25):
I didn't know that. Miranda.

>> Miranda (27:27):
You haven't heard me say that in all the times you've listened to
me natter on or.

>> Will (27:33):
I've had, like, a thou. I've had a couple. I don't know. For some reason,
I remember that. That's insane.

>> Miranda (27:37):
Yeah, it really was pretty. Pretty amazing because that was the
first play that did the double casting, of
course, and, Yeah, really was
remarkable. Yeah. Great way to. Great way to get started on what,
for me, has been a lifelong joy.

>> Will (27:53):
Thank you, Miranda. It's excellent to have you
here.

>> Miranda (27:56):
Thank you.

>> Will (27:57):
all right, well, friends, before we
start reading,
we've sort of been chatting to you, and I want to make sure to
establish right from the get go that, this is a
conversation. So, before we dive into reading the
text, I just wanted to open up to Nikit Jamal and
see either of you guys either did that sort

(28:17):
of resonate with you or spark
anything or were there anything that
we want to discuss as actors
at the top before we dive in?
Everything is fair game.

>> Jamal (28:31):
Absolutely. I'm loving the conversation. I'm
someone that likes to receive as much information as
possible because I kind of exist out there in the
esoteric ether. And so bringing things back to
town, back to the ground is, like, important for me with
information, because I feel more than I know,
which I think is a gift of mine. And you were
speaking about mirrors and these universal

(28:53):
things that are going on here. And I started thinking about
that. What time are you the
king within, right? Because that affects what
is the soul of the people and the awareness. And
sometimes you can be ahead of the times,
yet still a messenger, though foolish, you
know? And I think about, like, mystical tales, like, you know, like
the tarot deck, right? The tower falling is actually a great

(29:16):
thing. It's a blessing. Just like the fool is actually a freedom
sense, not the fool. And so
those images of that mirror comes up for me as I
look at what King Richard is saying in this
piece. And then looking at the time and in the mirror of our time,
right? You know, like, everybody wants freedom, but the way we want
it, it looks differently in this time.

(29:37):
And so there's a mirror, I think, that exists
within this and the wonderful language in this piece that exists
through all generations or through all times, if your eyes are open or
not. and so I like that aspect of it because there's a
lot of deep spiritual, universal
concepts that exist within King Richard.
And it seems like he's in the midst of that
questioning while still knowing is that dark night of the

(29:59):
soul? Is that Buddha leaving the castle and everything that they
have and choosing to give it up to be
no thing, nothing, which is a spiritual
concept. and in that time, you know, we've had president,
I think about Marianne Williamson, right, running for president. It's like,
oh, you too spiritual for us, baby girl. Go over there. Like, we
not there yet. We're not there yet. This universe, no, that's not
this town. We might gotta fight. No, no, no, no, no.

(30:22):
And so those are things that are coming up for me in the
universal mirror Again, if your eyes are open or
not, you see what you see. And I think that's all beautiful, which is why men
make what makes humanity in the soul
so complex, yet it's all one dancing
together to make whatever happens
next. and so I love the questioning in the
middle path that this seems to be on a strong

(30:44):
choice, but still a questioning
and that's the whole concept of being nothing,
knowing something, but also remembering that I don't
know it all, because I can't. And to be willing to say it
is why I think this is all profound. He says the things
that we dream about and wake up thinking about, but
feel too afraid or ashamed or too in the
unknowing void space to know, to put words

(31:06):
to it. But he puts words to what stills the room
and what wakes up the audience. And so it makes sense why it
wasn't performed. Because I think at one point, because
people probably weren't ready. I don't think. I think we're more
ready now in our world, but as a
totality in the large, still not
ready. And so, those are things coming up for me beneath
the surface, being a feeler first. And so throw all the

(31:28):
information at me, throw history at me. I'll
probably be digesting it all today and more quiet or
not. I'm long winded too. But those are things coming up for me in
this space and time.

>> Will (31:38):
No, I love everything you just said.
And I also want to. I want to sort of say, Nathan, ah.
If we're titling these episodes, what time are you? The King
within, is absolutely. I think, would
be a phenomenal episode title. And I think, really, I mean, it
cuts sort of. Right? Because I think it does. It cuts right to the
core of this. Right. And. And I'm glad that you brought that
up too, because that was something I. Sorry. I have

(32:00):
so much coffee in me right now, my brain is like crap.
just, to sort of build on that a little bit is that
seeing and knowing
are two recurring because of the
mirror. And I love that you also sort of brought up this idea of mist. Right. Because I
think. Exactly. Right. Like, Richard,
what Richard says in the scene stops the

(32:21):
room cold. Right. And how much of that
is because he's, like, seeing. How much of that is
because he's seeing himself and seeing everyone around him clearly. Right.
There are lies that we tell ourselves and we tell each
other so that we can all just, like, get on with our days. And then
there's. There's sometimes there's that one person who stands up and
says, actually, Yeah, I love that.

(32:42):
Jamal. Excellent, excellent. Nick,
Anything?

>> Nick (32:46):
Yeah.
I, too, was thinking about the mirrors. I was
thinking about sort of. There's almost a switch
that happens. And Miranda, you can help me with this. It's been a while
since I've worked in this play, but it seems that
the audience could Nearly be against Richard in
the beginning of this play and for
Bolingbroke. And then there's a shift

(33:06):
that happens somewhere in the middle where
we realize as, Richard almost
begins to take on a heroism
and Bolingbroke's usurpation
becomes, you know, The audience becomes aware
of the negativity involved in something like
that. And it's so interesting to me. I didn't know very much about the
story that they put on this play in front of

(33:28):
Queen Elizabeth when there was almost
a talk, you know, a discussion about taking her
crown from her. You brought that up. And I had
heard that story a little bit before. But how fascinating that
they used this piece of art and played it for her right before
that.

>> Miranda (33:44):
Yeah. And Essex, of course, had been the, ah, Earl of
Essex, had been one of her favorites.
so for him to lead this
rebellion against her and then her sense of
betrayal and so on. So it really exists,
I think, this play on multiple levels.
The historical facts,

(34:05):
whatever they actually were. you know, there's
an element of it, I think, that was Tudor propaganda,
certainly by the. By the Tudor
historians. then there's just
the power of art
and spirituality, which Richard. I agree with you
100% with Jamal and Nick. Richard
becomes at the end somehow, paradoxically. But he

(34:27):
becomes, I feel, more, He has
more depth and more poetry and
in a sense, more soul than Bolingbroke. I saw
a production once where the final scene was
Bolingbroke, Henry IV on the throne, and
just piles of
shrouded, bloodstained bodies just piling up

(34:47):
around him, which was,
pretty significant. And given then what
his reign went on to be. So.
Yeah, so it's a very. It's a remarkable thing, I
think, that it was used in this way and that this scene in
particular that we're, thinking about
together was seen as just.

(35:10):
It was unperformable until it
wasn't, you know.

>> Will (35:14):
Well. And it's very Catholic, isn't it? I mean, he is very
like. I mean, a. That would be the religion at the time. But Richard, time
and again, is sort of like painting himself as some sort of
martyr. Which, again, like, again, at the time is such
a dangerous thing to do because, like, it's
the Catholic.

>> Jamal (35:29):
And.

>> Will (35:29):
Well, like, I never thought of this until you started talking. But,
like, Bolingbroke sort of seems to, like, uphold, all of the,
like, Protestant values of, like,
practicality and,
accessibility. And, you know, it's.
Timothy west was, Ian McKellen's Bolingbroke. And
he described himself as a red wine actor to Ian McKellen's white wine
actor. But I wonder, like. But that's kind of the thing. It's like

(35:51):
Bolingbroke starts off. We
start off trusting Bolingbroke because he's one of the guys,
right? And he's more accessible
and he talks our language, right? And then he
gets to the throne. We realize he's not actually going to do the common
people any more good than Richard. And
Richard is all like iconography and he's sort
of remote and he's sort of. He's

(36:14):
entirely reliant on this relationship with God to
justify his. His place too. But,
yeah, I'm just realizing even from that point, I mean, and you know,
I think everyone, like Shakespeare's. What was it? His
paternal grandfather was executed as part of a
Catholic plot. Like there's, there's
evidence.

>> Miranda (36:32):
Well, there's some theory that his father was a
recusant who paid the fines
to not go to Protestant mass.
but before that I, you know, I'm not
sure. I'd have to double check that. But certainly there was
this,
questionable, commitment to Protestantism
in Shakespeare's background,

(36:54):
which was dangerous. And of course by 1601, again, when the
rebellion occurred, Elizabeth would die in
1603. And there was happily a more
or less peaceful transfer of power. but
the English people were anxious. She was dying unmarried,
childless, you know, no heir. And she, well,
she had an heir. She named James I. But there was a
lot of concern that the country would be plunged into civil

(37:17):
war again. and the other thing. And well, I
hadn't really thought of this any quite this way until what
you just said. I mean, Richard really becomes. He becomes
an accurate prophet by the
end of the play. You know, he says to Northumberland at one point, you
know, Northumberland, it's that great line. Thou
ladder wherewithal, Boleyn broke, ascends the

(37:37):
throne. and then, goes into this speech about, you
know, there's going to come a time when
you're going to think that even if Richard were to divide the kingdom and
give you half, it wouldn't be enough. And
you know, then indeed, Northumberland and the percies
were constantly fomenting rebellion against Henry
iv. So that
he accurately foresees that

(38:00):
really, shows, I think, his,
his change. Changed status. Status
or spirituality. Again, he's become a, he's
become a seer in a way. You know,
as I say, an accurate prophet, which is very far
from being at the. At the beginning.

>> Will (38:17):
Yeah.

>> Jamal (38:18):
A conduit of truth. And something about what happens
when you give up everything. You're not always consciously
aware of what you were speaking. This happens in my life all
the time when people think that I'm consciously aware. So like no, this is
flowing through me.
And something that was said too, like when you become to see.
When you get to the point where you see yourself in everything.
Basic human psychology. There is no surprises.

(38:40):
You know what I mean? It becomes all quite simple. Lauryn Hill
said I like shift love songs to spiritual songs. It
could all be so simple, but you rather make it hard. But when you
look at human behavior and you begin to see
yourself in everything and everyone, the thing that you
are prophesying is also just a simple truth.

>> Will (38:57):
Yeah.

>> Nick (38:58):
That's really interesting. It leads me to think about
what, you know, how Richard sees himself as part of
the land, almost as part of
England being endowed by God.

>> Will (39:09):
When.

>> Nick (39:09):
When he has that conversation and he puts his
hand on the shores and talks to the
land as if it. If he and the land are the
same.

>> Will (39:19):
Yeah. Yeah.

>> Miranda (39:20):
Which is Arthurian. Right. You
know, the king lamb thrives when the king
thrives. You know, the land declines when the king, king
declines. That's.

>> Nick (39:29):
Yeah. The conduit of truth. It makes me think of
what flows through him.

>> Will (39:34):
Yeah.

>> Jamal (39:35):
and ah, the wonderful thing about that is Shakespeare does it
all the time. Like the conduit of truth comes through all
beings in Shakespeare. Like sometime
it's not the ones in power. Sometimes it's the maid
or the fool or the drunkard. You know, we used to say this in the
church and I'm. Pretty many other people have said this too. Nothing is new under the
sun. But even a liar can tell you the truth. And so

(39:55):
it's even like when you talk about the identity that you have when you're the
king, you know, it's like, yeah, just because you're the
king don't mean you're the only holder of truth. And the gag is,
is that sometimes you can be blinded by the crown that's on your
head that you can't see clearly, you know. And when you think about
those historical prophets, you know, you can go through to whatever
religion or mystical tale, honestly it's the same story and everything.

(40:15):
You can go to superhero stories. I say this all the time, but it's
just that when you think you are the one, you still have
to face everything that comes with that. Because if we
are the one you being the one, you're gonna run
into yourself and have to fall if you think you are. And I
love that in that. In the paradox of it all,
that we all. We all have to experience

(40:36):
that within the mirror of your existence. Right. I think that's
beautiful poetry.

>> Will (40:40):
Yeah. Well, and it's brought up. It's brought up even in the scene,
right. Flattering glass that, you know, like, to my followers and
prosperity thou does beguile me. Right. Can you even. And if you've got that thing
on, can you even. And I think that's what you're saying, but like, can you even trust what
you are seeing? Just because the mirror is there, do you have the
ability to recognize what you're looking at? This is all
great. I'd love to transition us to looking at
text. just a couple of questions.

(41:01):
So we are. Everyone is getting. I'm going to play
everyone else. Sorry. but I think it's only like three lines.
So we're going to start with the entrance of Richard Alack. Why am I
sent for to a king? I think that is line 170,
if you're going off the Folger document.
so just a couple of questions, and these are really just
sort of, extensions of the conversation

(41:22):
that we've been, talking about.

>> Nathan (41:23):
But if you're.

>> Will (41:24):
If you're basically for both parts, the main question
that I want to sort of. I don't need an answer right now, but just
be thinking about is how right do you think you
are in this circumstance? are you coming
in. If you're Richard, are you coming
in with the full weight of God and they are
committing a crime, or are you coming in?

(41:45):
sort of. You know, I think this sort of was
sparked by talking about the sort of. By the connection to the land, right. In
the Arthurian. because I think certainly that
is. That opens up an
interesting fork in the road, because is this something that he
genuinely believes, or is this something that he is performing
so that everyone around him will believe that he is a king?

(42:05):
And I think that that is. I think that's the sense question. And it's
not like I'm not going
either way. I think play it whatever makes the most sense
to you. Right. Because both are absolutely valid. But I think the
central question for Richard is, does he genuinely
believe this or does he secretly
believe that he is absolutely not worthy?

(42:26):
and I think that's also a spectrum. Right. I think even over the course
of that scene, you know, we can keep our little Sort of. We'll call it
the Holiness Bar, right? Like, where, you know,
is he a full XP or is he half.
and with Bolingbroke, because I
also want to. Even though Richard does.
One thing I want to sort of say right off the bat before we dive
in, is even though Bolingbroke doesn't have as much

(42:49):
text as Richard, Bolingbroke is an
equal player in this scene. and I think that that
is. Oh, that's one other thing that I forgot to talk about because I have
way too much caffeine in my system. I really do think that
even though this is Richard ii, this is the story of these two
people, and the tension between them, right?
And it is their journey together.

(43:10):
and indeed, Bolingbroke is a much larger character in this play than he is in his own
plays. my Henry IV and I. I
was Hal. My Henry iv and I loved part two because I was
in four scenes and she was in two. And the rest of the time we
just got to sit. It was awesome. Anyways, if
you're Bolingbroke, I think this
is this, like, the train has left the station,

(43:30):
right? there is no stopping it. So I think the question
for a Bolingbroke, you are getting the crown. Is
that something you asked for or is that not something that
you wanted? Right. And again, I think that that can
change over the course of this scene. Might a voice teacher
call it your willingness level when you enter the room?
Are you super excited to be there? Are you not so excited?

(43:50):
It was actually. It was the best piece of advice I got. Amy Chaffee, if you're
listening, it was the best piece of advice I ever got from an acting
teacher. She said, don't force your willingness level.
That will result in dishonest acting. Just be wherever you're at. I was
like, oh, cool.
but what's Richard's holiness
level and what's bullying, bro? Willingness level? Now? this is
going to be a lot of start and stop, but not immediately. I want to do one tilt

(44:13):
at the scene without stopping. But that said, I want to make sure that both people
have a chance to read both parts. So, we're going to do something
a little bit tricksy. and, we're going to switch
halfway through. So I would like for us to start
the scene from Alack. Why Am I Sent for to a King? With
Jamal reading King Richard and Nick reading
Bolingbroke. And then,
oh, I Scrolled the wrong direction.

(44:35):
I really. I should be living
in like an Oxford don's accommodations
in, like, the mid-1950s. I'm not built
for the world of computers. Give me one second. I would like for
us to switch
after, line
231.

(44:56):
Which is what more remains. So, Jamal, you're going to read
Richard all the way through to the end of that,
giving the heavy weight from off my head
speech. And at that point it's going to go
to me, because that's a Northumberland line. But then
from must I do. So, Nick,
you take over King Richard, and Jamal, you

(45:17):
read Bolingbroke. And this is just for.
And I think that's a. It's about the halfway
point. Ish. but that way we can take a, Ah,
take a tilt at it. Everybody can take a tilt at both parts.
And then we can go back and sort of. And then when we go back
and we start actually nitpicking, we'll flip flop
those. But don't worry about that for right now. okay. We

(45:38):
all good to go?

>> Jamal (45:39):
Yes.

>> Will (45:40):
All righty. Sorry, give me one second. All right.
Jamal, when you are ready, take us away way.

>> Jamal (45:45):
Okay. Alack,
why am I sent for to a king? Before I have shook off
the regal thoughts wherewith I reigned,
I hardly yet have learned to insinuate,
flatter, bow and bend my knee,
give sorrow, leave a while to tutor me to this omission.
Yet I well remember the favors of these men.

(46:08):
Were they not mine? Did they
not sometime cry all hell to
me? So Judas
did to Christ, but he in 12 found truth in all
but one, I, in
12,000 none.
God save the king.

(46:32):
Will no man say amen?
Am, I both priest and clerk?
Well, then,
amen.
God save the king, Although
I be not he, and yet amen.
If heaven do think him me to

(46:53):
do what service am I sent for.

>> Will (46:55):
Hither to do that office of thine own goodwill which
tired majesty did make the offer, the
resignation of thy state and crown to Henry
Bulling.

>> Jamal (47:04):
Give me the crown
here, cousin. Seize the crown
here, cousin.
On this side, my hand on that side
thine. Now is
this golden crown like a deep well that holds two

(47:25):
buckets filling one another, the emptier, ever
dancing in the air, the other down unseen
and full of water, the bucket down and
full of tears am I drinking
my griefs while you mount
up on high.

>> Will (47:46):
Nick.

>> Nick (47:47):
Sorry, I lost my place. There we are. I thought you had
been willing to resign.

>> Jamal (47:52):
My crown am I. But still my griefs are
mine. Ye may. My glories and my
state dispose, but not my griefs.
Still am I king of those part.

>> Nick (48:03):
Of your cares you give me
with your crown.

>> Jamal (48:08):
Your cares set up, do not pluck my cares
down. My care is loss of
care by old care done.
Your care is gain of care by new care
won. The cares I give
I have, though given away. They
tend to the crown, yet still with me they
stay.

>> Nick (48:30):
Are you contented to resign the crown?

>> Jamal (48:33):
Ay, no, no. Ay,
for I must nothing be.
Therefore, no,
no, for I resign to
thee. Now
mark me how I will undo myself.

(48:53):
I give this heavy weight from off my head and this
unwieldy scepter from my hand. The pride
I kingly sway from out of my heart. With
my own tears I wash away my balm. With my
own hands I give away my crown. With my own
tongue, deny my sacred state
with my own breast release all

(49:14):
duteous oaths, all
pomp and majesty I do forswear
my manners, rents,
revenues I forego. My acts,
decrees, and statutes I deny.
God pardon all oaths that are broke. To me
God keep. All vows unbroke are made

(49:35):
to thee. Make me that
nothing have with nothing grieved, and Thou with all
please, that hast all achieved.
Long mayst thou live in Richard's seat to
sit and soon lie, Richard in
an earthy pit.
God save King Henry

(49:56):
unking it, Richard says, and send him many years, of sunshine
days.
What more remains?

>> Will (50:06):
No more, but that you read these accusations and
these grievous crimes committed by your person and your followers
against the state and profit of this land through that by confessing
them, the souls of men may deem that you are
worthily deposed.

>> Nick (50:19):
Must I do so? And must
I ravel out my weaved up follies?
Gentle Northumberland, if thy offenses were upon
record, would it not shame thee in so fair a
troop to read a lecture of them?
If thou wouldst, thou shouldst
find one heinous article containing the

(50:40):
deposing of a king and cracking the strong warrant of
another oath, marked with a
blot, damned in the book of heaven.
Nay, all of you
that stand and look upon me,
whilst that my wretchedness debate
myself, though some
of you with pilot wash your

(51:02):
hands, showing an outward pity, yet
you pilots have here delivered me my
sour cross. Cross and water
cannot wash away your sin.

>> Will (51:13):
My lord, dispatch, read o'er these articles.

>> Nick (51:15):
Mine eyes are full of tears I cannot see.
Yet salt water blinds them not so much,
but they can see a sort of traitors
here. Nay, if I turn
mine eyes upon myself, I find myself a traitor with the
rest. For I have given
here my soul's consent to undeck

(51:36):
the pompous body of a king
made glory base and sovereignty
a slave. Proud majesties of
subject state. A peasant.

>> Will (51:47):
My, lord.

>> Nick (51:48):
No, lord of thine, thou hot insulting
man. Nor no
man's lord. I have no name.
No title? No,
not that name was given me at, the font.
But tis usurped.
Alack, the heavy day that I have worn

(52:08):
so many winters out.
And no, not now. What
name to call myself.
Oh, that I were a mockery. King of Snow,
standing before the sun of Bolingbroke. To
melt myself away in water
drops. Good king, great

(52:29):
king, and yet not greatly good.
And if my word be sterling, yet in England
let it command a mirror hither straight.
That it may show me what a face I have
since it is bankrupt of his
majesty.

>> Jamal (52:50):
Go, some of you, and fetch a looking
glass.

>> Will (52:53):
Read o'er this paper while the glass doth come.

>> Nick (52:56):
Fiend, thou torments me ere I come to
hell.

>> Jamal (52:59):
Urge it no more, my Lord Northumberland.

>> Will (53:02):
Commons will not then be satisfied.

>> Nick (53:05):
They shall be satisfied. I'll read enough.
When I do see the very book indeed where all my sins
are writ, and that's myself.
Give me that glass, and therein I will read
no deeper wrinkles yet.
Hath, ah, sorrow struck so many blows upon this face

(53:25):
of mine. And made no deeper wounds.
O flattering glass, like to
my followers in prosperity.
Does thou beguile me.
Was this face the face that every day
under his household roof did keep 10,000
men? Was this the face

(53:47):
that, like the sun, did make beholders
wink? Is this
the face which faced so many
follies. That was at last
outfaced by Bolingbroke?
A brittle glory shineth in this
face. As brittle as the
glory is the face, for there

(54:09):
it is
cracked in an hundred
shivers. Mark,
silent king, the moral of this
sport. How, soon my
sorrow hath destroyed my face.

>> Jamal (54:25):
The shadow of your sorrow hath destroyed the shadow of
your face.

>> Nick (54:30):
Say that again. The shadow of
my sorrow.
Let's see. Tis very true. My grief
lies all within. And
these external manners of laments are merely shadows
to the unseen grief that swells with
silence in the tortured soul. There lies
the substance. And I thank thee,

(54:53):
King, for thy great bounty. That not
only gives me cause to wail, but teaches me
the way how to lament the cause.
I'll beg one boon, and then shall be gone.
And Trouble you no more. Shall I obtain
it?

>> Jamal (55:11):
Name it. Fair cousin.

>> Nick (55:14):
Fair cousin, I am greater than
a king. For when I was a king, my
flatterers were then but subjects. Being now
a subject, I have a king here to my
flatterer being so
great, I have no need to beg.

>> Jamal (55:31):
Yet ask.

>> Nick (55:34):
And shall I have.

>> Jamal (55:36):
You shall.

>> Nick (55:37):
then give me leave to go.

>> Will (55:39):
Whither.

>> Nick (55:41):
Whither you will
so I were from your sights.

>> Will (55:48):
Go.

>> Jamal (55:48):
Some of you. Convey him to the tower.

>> Nick (55:51):
O good conveyor. Conveyors are
you all that rise thus
nimbly by a true king's fall.

>> Jamal (56:00):
Such a good scene.

>> Will (56:03):
It's brilliant. you know what?
I know that we said we were going to end it. Does everybody have the
Folger thing?

>> Nick (56:10):
Yeah.

>> Will (56:11):
M. I'm going to say, for the interest of
us, working, let's actually end it one line
later so that we can keep this. Bolingbroke. On Wednesday
next, we solemnly set down our coronation. Lords, prepare yourselves.
The only reason I didn't include it originally, but the only reason I'm saying
that is because if we are investigating this tension
between Richard and Bolingbroke, Shakespeare

(56:31):
doesn't give Richard the last line, the last word.
And, so I want to see. I want us to investigate
what that. What receiving that does to whoever's playing
Bolingbroke. So we'll tack that
on. no need to go back, but, Spotlight on
Jamal. Now deliver that line. No. But.

>> Jamal (56:51):
On Wednesday next, we solemnly set down our coronation.
Lords, prepare yourselves.

>> Will (56:55):
Knocked it out of the park.
But just so as we move forward, I just want us to have that there
because I think it is actually more important than I had
originally thought. it's such a good scene.
And the thing that leapt out at me, which, again, I just want to.
It's such a general. I don't have general thoughts right now, but,
like, Richard's funny.
Like, as a person, he's

(57:17):
like, his use of language and his sense of play
with language is so. He's so
facile and he's so inventive. Like, I love.
I mean, I love puns, but I love that he says, you
know, like, there's some of you with pilot washer
hands showing an outward pity. Yet you pilots, if you're
like, it's pilot, like Pontius pilot, but then pilot,

(57:37):
like, you know, airplane pilot. Or, like, you know, that it's.
It's, you know, he's. He's in his element.
And part of me, like, there's part of Richard. And again, this is a little bit
editorial, but Richard's a drama mom. Like, no matter
who Richard is, this is someone who absolutely
thrives in the spotlight. And he does it, like, right from the
word go, right. Even in Act 1, Scene 1. It's that
great, that great couplet of this we prescribe.

(58:00):
Though no physician too deep malice makes too
deep incision. And like his corruption, his gaggle of. And it's
in full production. It's heartbreaking because the first time that he makes a pun,
he's surrounded by a bunch of people who laugh and applaud for him. And now
he's greeted with just crushing fucking silence.
But it is. But
he keeps going, and I think that's the important thing. Anyways, Yeah.

(58:21):
Beautiful read, friends.
I want to open up for thoughts and impressions.

>> Nick (58:25):
Bolingbroke's hard because I was mesmerized by
Jamal that I forget to say the lines.
He pops in every now and then, and you're like, oh, yeah.

>> Jamal (58:36):
Well, that's. I think that it's interesting that you
mentioned that, because when we flipped, I also had
that feeling listening to you, because,
again, it's something that does slow down the room he
is speaking. Something that is beneath the surface
that most of us can't know. I don't even
think himself, like. I think it's a deeper feeling

(58:56):
than a knowing. I really do. I really do
think it's that space in between. And,
for me, I like Richard being in that space
in between asking the big questions. It sounds as if
he knows, but he really doesn't, because to know anything is
to know nothing. And I think, he plays upon
that. He plays with it even when he's looking at

(59:16):
himself in the mirror. He's like, oh, all this truth,
all these things, and I have not been
mobile. And then he crashes
it because it's like, if we are, then
I am. Even though I'm still cute,
though, you know?

>> Nick (59:32):
He loves an audience, maybe Richard, it seems.

>> Will (59:35):
He absolutely does.

>> Nick (59:36):
Yeah.

>> Will (59:37):
And I think he's always loved his reflection. Like, it's.
But I. Jamal M. I love what you just said, and I want to uphold it. And I'm
gonna. Like. I tend to be a very technical director when
it comes to the verse. I want to sort of uphold that as, like, the
gold standard, especially if you're playing Richard. It's absolutely
always a discovery. I think. Absolutely. And
I think the only reason that I'm flagging it right now is because,

(59:58):
Not just because it's a good Rule of thumb for playing verse, but also
because I think up until this point in the play, maybe up to the
hollow crown speech. I think maybe right up to the hollow crown speech,
Richard is doing that thing that. I don't know if this. I don't know if you got
social anxiety or not. but,
yeah, speaking for myself,
there's sometimes a danger when you find yourself in a room with, a lot

(01:00:19):
of very intelligent or powerful people, right? And there's
sometimes I often feel pressure to
appear very put together and
always know exactly what I'm talking about. And
that sometimes results in, like, there's like a. You ever
get that, like, low drone or like that get that bird's eye view of
yourself? And you're just like, you fucking idiot. You can

(01:00:39):
be saying it doesn't matter what you're saying, right? You're like.
You were quietly. While the person in front, while
the last person was talking, you've been quietly rehearsing what you're gonna say,
and then you say it, right? And there's an element of that. Like,
Richard, he's very fun and he's
very creative and he's all of these things, but he's a little bit restrained
and a little bit stilted in the early scenes of the play.

(01:01:00):
And this is. It's like he sets himself on fire. It's like he
catches fire. like, there is something, like,
you've really hit the nail on the head. that it is. There is something about this
scene, and there is something about him being able to see himself
and not give a
fuck or do give a fuck, and sort of
to be able to surmount that for the first time in

(01:01:20):
his life. But it is absolutely always a
discovery.

>> Jamal (01:01:23):
And it's in that space too. Like, listen,
I mean, we all go to sleep, we all dream, and we all wake up with
ourselves, regardless of who's next to us. And sometimes with these
thoughts, you feel kind of crazy.
And so even though you're saying it so clean after you say
it and you hear what you just said, like, these things.
That's the thing about embodying these truths in this realm.

(01:01:44):
It's hard to perfectly. Which is why you work on the balance of
it. And so there's moments where, like, Richard is speaking, but
then he hears what he just said.
Because, like, you know, I always say this. Whatever I say out my mouth is, for me,
in the same space and time. And so there's also,
like, where are you? Are you okay? You
know, with it as well. That I feel like in saying these things, like, there

(01:02:04):
was moments when I was saying the words, and I'm like. Like, ooh, what did
I just say?

>> Will (01:02:08):
What did you say? The character explicitly has
that moment. It's my favorite line to play. Say that again.
My sorrow. Like, he literally. He has that exact
experience explicitly. Yeah,
yeah. No. Beautiful.
all right, friends, let's start picking this text apart. So,
let's remain flipped. So we'll start with Nick

(01:02:28):
reading Richard and Jamal reading Bolingbroke, and then when we get to that same
point, will flip again so everybody will have had a chance to read everything.
I want to keep, as much as possible, because I think
the deeper we get into this, I think the more I am convinced that I
want one day to be Nick day or one day to be sort
of. This is the last time we're going to switch in the middle
of the session. so for today,

(01:02:50):
as much as possible, and this is a reminder to myself, as much as
anybody, let's try and keep the discussion, as
close to just understanding, the words on the page as possible. And
the only reason that I'm saying that's not generally how I work, but the
only reason that I'm saying that is I want to make sure that if we
are talking about Jamal's Richard in a
future episode, that that is not influenced by anything, by any
character discussion that happens today at the table. And likewise

(01:03:13):
with Nick, and likewise for the Bolingbrokes,
too. so I imagine these lines in the sand are not
going to be very clearly maintained, and that's not the end of the
world. but I just want to. I guess the only thing that I want to
say before we start getting in the nitty gritty is Nick and
Jamal. For me, the most important thing, as we go
forward, is how these parts are
resonating with you in the moment. and

(01:03:35):
so if somebody says
something, about one of these parts that you don't agree with, that's
totally okay. And hold on to that. It's like I'm sort of asking you
guys to think, like, two part harmony, right? Which is something I'm terrible
at. So hold on to your part. If you disagree,
that's good. It's gonna make for a great podcast.

>> Jamal (01:03:52):
if you love Shakespeare, you gotta love that. Disagree. Wait, hold on. That thought, though.
That thought, though. So I'm excited for that, actually.

>> Will (01:03:57):
Oh, yeah, me too. Me too.
final thoughts before we. Before we dive in.
No.

>> Nick (01:04:04):
Well, I wanted to ask Miranda a little bit
about, And maybe for myself and our audience,
the history between Bolingbroke and
Richard, and the banishment that
happens a little earlier in the play. Just because I feel
like part of their relationship in this scene is based on the
fact that he was sent away
for six years or something. I'm not sure

(01:04:26):
exactly what the story is. And then he came back.

>> Miranda (01:04:31):
Yeah, exactly. Well, as you may
remember, the play begins with,
conflict between Bolingbroke and
Thomas Mowbray.
And the question is over Mowbray's,
responsibility for killing, Thomas Woodstock,
who was the Earl of Gloucester, who was really
everything. The whole thing starts with Edward iii, who had these

(01:04:52):
five very, very ambitious, sons. And
then, His most immediate heir, dies
before Edward does. And that is
Richard's father. So, So
we begin just with this conflict. That
is, I always say, with Shakespeare, with the history
plays. I'm always reminded of, that slogan of the women's

(01:05:13):
movement back in the 60s and the 70s. The personal is
political. And for me, that's one of the things that always makes
these history plays really pop, is that these. Yes,
these are historic events, but this is also a family.
These are fraught family dynamics.
And, I'm also always reminded of
what the great British actor and

(01:05:33):
critic Kenneth Tynan used to say about the history plays,
about Shakespeare's history plays. If you heard this one, Will, he
says, He wrote at one point that the trouble with the history plays
is that they contain far too many lines that sound something
like. And dost thou now presume base
leamington, to scorn thy cousin's brother's eldest
son? You know, true.

>> Will (01:05:52):
You know.

>> Miranda (01:05:52):
So you're sort of keeping track of these family
dynamics. But, yes, what's happened at the beginning here is
that Henry, who is Richard. Henry Bolenberg, who is
Richard's cousin, he's his first cousin. Is
accusing Thomas Mowbray of the murder of
their mutual uncle. one of these sons
of Edward and, Richard very, Sort of
peremptorily stops, them from

(01:06:14):
dueling, from. From, Completing their
duel, which he earlier had allowed to go forward.
He banishes, bolingbroke
originally for 10 years. He banishes. Interestingly,
he banishes Mowbray for life. upon
me, a sterner sentence which I, with
some unwillingness pronounce. And we can, you know, historians
and others have speculated about that. But then,

(01:06:37):
it's sort of In a formative display
of magnanimity, Richard looks at
Bolingbroke's father, who is Richard's own
uncle, John of God, time honored Lancaster, and
says, I see how this upsets you. I'm going to
just take away four years. They're just six years. You're just
banished for six years. So

(01:06:57):
from the very beginning, there's a tension there. and
it's always so striking
when Bolingbroke leaves
and Richard's, cronies, basically
O'Mearrow, comes and they're just talking very
candidly about the contempt they have for
Bolingbroke. so there's this
complicated. I'm, going maybe a little too far astray

(01:07:20):
from your question, Nick, but, you know, there's this
complicated dynamic that is, as
I say, a family dynamic, a historical one,
political factions and a mystery. You know,
there's the mystery of who was responsible for
this murder. There is a play, Thomas
of Woodstock, that outline that is sort of.
It's not by Shakespeare, but it's a, It's a prequel. And I've seen

(01:07:43):
productions in which a scene, the scene of,
Thomas of Woodstock's murder, it's sort of
briefly staged before going into Richard II to
try to make some context there.
so it was, you know, we begin
in this moment of great conflicts on many,
many levels and including the personal,

(01:08:03):
you know, between.

>> Nick (01:08:04):
Yeah, I just wanted to get a feeling of how Bolingbroke views
Richard in the scene, of what his feelings of Richard
are.

>> Miranda (01:08:10):
You know, he. And that, I think, really comes
out. It depends on performance, you know, and
really, particularly in that moment when Richard says,
I'm going to take away four years from your banishment.
And Bolingbroke has this line about, you
know, for what is it for weary winters and for
wanton springs, gone in a moment such
as the Breath of Kings. And I've seen actors just

(01:08:33):
of, you know, spitting that line out
in fury and others just sort of marveling.
So that's, for me, that's what could
really come out in performance. You know, what, what,
what Bolingbroke really thinks of Richard and,
and Richard of. We do learn what Richard thinks of
Bolingbroke in those intervening scenes. And it's not much,

(01:08:53):
you know, he contemptuous of him, as I say. But,
look how that worked out. So, Well,
it's performance choices, I think. Yeah.

>> Will (01:09:01):
Forgive me if this is something that you said and my
caffeine addled brain missed it, but there is also
there's suspicion that Richard ordered the death of Gloucester, too.
Right.

>> Miranda (01:09:11):
Exactly. Yes. And I didn't specify that it's not your
caffeine addlebread at all. Your brain is dead.
But, no, that's right. There's suspicion that Richard may have
ordered that murder. And that may be. And that's
why Mowbray feel so betrayed when Richard banishes
him, you know, for life. And,
this. Bowling wrote know that, you know,

(01:09:31):
what's. What's. And of course, this scene, the
deposition scene, begins with this really almost
ludicrous, series.

>> Will (01:09:38):
Ah.

>> Miranda (01:09:38):
Of events when O'Merle and everybody else are sort
of challenging, you know, challenging. A lot of people
are challenging O'Merle. You know, I support you. No, you're lying.
And so, like, people are throwing down their gauges one after
the next, and it's. And again, the Shakespeare's control
over the tone here is just extraordinary.
I think that we. That we go from that. I mean, it's one.

(01:09:58):
Finally, Morrow has to say, well, some honest Christian, lend me a
gauge. You know, he's.

>> Will (01:10:02):
He's.

>> Miranda (01:10:02):
He's holding all these gloves. He doesn't have any of his own that he can throw
down. And that Shakespeare can go from that scene, which is
just inevitably comet. To, you know, to
this. To this moment is, Is always very,
striking to me as well. So.

>> Will (01:10:16):
Yeah. William, thank.

>> Miranda (01:10:17):
Hm.

>> Jamal (01:10:17):
You.

>> Miranda (01:10:18):
Yeah.

>> Will (01:10:18):
Too much answer, but no, that's
exactly.
some general, Just to sort of speak. To do
a slight pivot as we go into text work. just a couple of general
observations. this is verse. Be very cognizant of
driving energy to the ends of lines.
Don't worry about like. I'm not.
What is it? They said that John Barton was a,

(01:10:41):
verse purist.

>> Jamal (01:10:43):
No. A verse.

>> Will (01:10:44):
I'll be here all night.
I don't need you to take the. Say zura at the end of a line
or anything, but please do like king thoughts, learns
knee. These are the most important words in the line, just for
sense. So make sure that we're driving to that. I'll
encourage. both of you gentlemen. Let's not worry
about any pretension. Let's not worry about

(01:11:07):
a Shakespeare voice. Let's not worry about any sort of dialect.
So we are speaking in our own voices.
yeah, those were. Those were only my only two
initial observations. So, Nick,
when you're ready, take it away. And I will call stop.
And anyone can call stop at any point. any of the Four of
us. And Nathan too. If you want to. If you want to jump
in. Anyone can call. Stop at any time if you want to discuss

(01:11:29):
something. If you've got a question, if you've got a thought.
Anyone? All right, Nick. take it away.

>> Nick (01:11:36):
Alack, why am I sent for
to a king? Before I have shook off the
regal thoughts wherewith I reigned,
I hardly yet, have learned to insinuate, flatter,
bow and bend my knee, Give
sorrow, leave a while to tutor me to this submission.
Yet I well remember the favors of these men.

(01:11:58):
Were they not mine? Did they not
sometime cry, all hail to
me? So Judas
did to Christ, but he in 12
found truth in all but one,
I in 12,000 none.
God save the king.

(01:12:19):
Will no man say Amen?
Am I both priest and clerk?
Well then, amen.
God saved the king,
although I be not he. And
yet, amen. Ah, if heaven do think him
me to do, what service am I

(01:12:41):
sent for hitherto?

>> Will (01:12:43):
Good, good, good, good. I'm going to stop because it's a nice
big chunk right at the beginning and I'd like to unpack it. So, Nick, help me out. What
do these first couple lines mean?

>> Nick (01:12:52):
Well, it seems like he's saying, five minutes
ago I was the king, and now you're
asking me to come here and treat
another as the king.
And I'm not ready to do this yet. I
don't know how to flatter, how to bend my knee,
how to bow to someone else.

(01:13:13):
As you said, he's been the king since he was nine years
old.

>> Jamal (01:13:16):
Great.

>> Will (01:13:16):
Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Since nine years old.

>> Jamal (01:13:18):
Yeah.

>> Will (01:13:19):
This is right on the money. I think, just for
sense, I think
sent for is going to be, for both of you
gentlemen. I think sent for is a huge thing because I don't know that
anyone has sent for you. Oh,
yeah. Interesting. Excuse me?

>> Jamal (01:13:38):
Yeah, I said it's like me.

>> Will (01:13:40):
Yeah, me Excuse you. so
it's almost more important than King. I still need to hear king, but
I definitely need to hear sent for. Great.
M. And again, it's something that I'm just.
I would encourage if you're Richards. Right. Agency is
another huge thing for Richard. Right. Because
when he was, he says later in the

(01:14:01):
prison speech, I wasted time and now
doth time waste me. Right. And so this is not
somebody who, unless he's like,
stealing money from his dead uncle to go start a war in Ireland,
this is not somebody who's like, done a tremendous
amount with his crown. Right. Or that's not the impression that
Shakespeare gives us. He's not the world's most enterprising

(01:14:21):
king, but he is taking agency here. So it
is just interesting to note where he is taking
agency in his language. Right before I have shook off
the regal thoughts, wherewith I reigned, right? So there's this idea of,
like, you shouldn't be able to send for me before I
have actually abdicated. Even though he is the person who said. Who first
brought up the abdication.

(01:14:41):
likewise. again, I would insinuate,
flatter, bow, and bend my knee.
for both of you. Let's make sure we're giving each of those
weight. I don't know. I'm going to take the pressure off
of both of you to. I think if you're Richard, take your time. I'll
let you know if you're being too slow. But the stage is yours,
Right. I think

(01:15:02):
with this. Give sorrow, leave a while. Let's
treat, sorrow as a
person, right? Because again, sorrow has, like, where's the
agency? Right. I still have to be taught.
And then I think that's the first again. And this is the only reason I'm
bringing. Excuse me, my cat is making noise outside the door.
No, she's gone. you'll all meet June Bug at some

(01:15:23):
point. and then I think this is the first beat change, Right? And again, the only reason
I'm bringing this up is I think it is. It's important to lay out exactly,
like, what is the argument, and how exactly are we making
it with this language? Because I think. Because it is so
beautiful, and it is so, like, the verse will hold us.
It is so rhythmically rich. I just want to make sure that
we're sort of dialing in and getting a clear sense of that argument. And how

(01:15:43):
is that being made? Take it again, Nick. Let's just take it from
the top again.

>> Nick (01:15:51):
Alack, why am I sent for to a
king Before I have, shook off the
regal thoughts Wherewith I reigned,
I hardly yet have learned to
insinuate, flatter, bow
and bend my knee.
Give sorrow leave a while to tutor me to

(01:16:13):
this submission.
Yet I will remember the favors of these men.
Were they not mine?
Did they not sometime cry, all hail to
me? So
Judas did to Christ. But he in 12 found
truth in all but one, I in

(01:16:35):
12,000 none.
God save the king.
Will no man say amen?
Well, then, amen.
God save the king. Although I

(01:16:56):
be not he and Yet,
Amen. if heaven do think him
me. Let me say that again. And
yet. Amen. If heaven do think him me
to do, what service am I sent for hither?

>> Will (01:17:11):
Good. great.

>> Nick (01:17:12):
What service am I sent for hither? So I always, I
always have to specify that line lives kind of by
itself.

>> Will (01:17:18):
It lives a little by itself. And I think, I think service, I
think you can flow through again.

>> Nick (01:17:23):
Service.

>> Will (01:17:24):
Yeah. Shout out to Joe Olivieri if she's listening, who's
my Shakespeare teacher, because always said you got like $10 to
spend on a line of verse, right? So it's like, what's that? What's a
four dollar word? What's a three dollar word? What's like a 50 cent
word? I think to do what are all like 10
cent words? Drive to service, Right. Service.
Service bent for, God save the king.

(01:17:44):
Although I, I think I. And he. Right. And
again, it's all. It's that seesaw, it's that mirror thing, right?
The king is this other thing. And it's again,
like thinking about discovery. It's almost like.
And we're not worrying about acting right now. But it is. But it
is. If it is a new thought that is occurring, it's like,
oh, to him, in that moment, it's like, oh, yeah, okay. Like

(01:18:05):
the king is something else. And even if
I'm not him anyways, I'm getting ahead of
myself. I versus he, I think, is going to help clarify
that God save and separate from
king. And
likewise, I think
heaven and me are the important words. Rather
than think, I think that we still need to hear think,

(01:18:27):
but you are. He's drawing a
line between the secular and the
holy right. God save the king, Although I
be not he. I might not be king,
but we will only say Amen. Ah, right.
If heaven, if the ultimate
authority, is on my
side. okay, just take it from. Take, it

(01:18:50):
from. God save the King. Will no man say amen? And
then we'll press on. But great, great adjustment, man. Really
great.

>> Nick (01:18:58):
God save the King.
Will no man say Amen?
Well, then, amen.
God save the king,
Although I be not he.
And yet.

>> Will (01:19:16):
Amen.

>> Nick (01:19:16):
if heaven do think him, me
to do what service am I sent for
hither?

>> Will (01:19:23):
Do that office of thine own goodwill which tired majesty
did make thee offer the resignation of thy state and
crown to Henry Bullinger.

>> Nick (01:19:30):
Brook, give me the crown.
Here, cousin. Seize the
crown.
Here, cousin.
On this side, my hand on that side, thine.
Now is this golden crown like a deep

(01:19:51):
well that owes two
buckets filling one another,
the empty, the emptier ever dancing in the
air, the other down
unseen and full of water,
that bucket down and full of tears. Am I
drinking my griefs whilst you

(01:20:11):
mount up on high?

>> Jamal (01:20:14):
I thought you had been willing to resign
my crown.

>> Nick (01:20:19):
I am, but still my griefs are mine.
You may my glories and my deep state depose, but
not my griefs. Still am I king of
those part.

>> Jamal (01:20:30):
Of your cares you give me with your crown.

>> Nick (01:20:34):
Aye.

>> Will (01:20:35):
No, no, I
think we jumped. but that's okay, because part of.

>> Nick (01:20:40):
Oh, yeah, sorry.

>> Will (01:20:41):
My bad, my bad. No, no, no, that's okay. We needed to
stop and go back. it's all very clear. It's all. Well, great, great,
great. the thing that's striking me, too,
is just how clear the text is. Right? Like,
I'm not feeling a need to, like, check
a footnote or anything. Like, it's all. On first hearing or even
on first reading. It's very. Like, the imagery is

(01:21:03):
powerful, but it's simple.

>> Jamal (01:21:05):
and it's very intimate, too.

>> Will (01:21:07):
Yeah. Expounding.

>> Jamal (01:21:09):
This conversation is being had. Sure, there's people around,
and it's happening in a public space, but there's
something that. That. Because it's speaking to the heart
with these big ideas, it's like, it
zooms all the way in. And like, I was thinking, like,
your note of, like, this is us speaking. This is us
speaking is bringing that clarity to me because

(01:21:29):
it just. It's piercing to the heart, which makes it
intimate. Although this is something happening in public. And then there's moments
when it becomes public. Let me lay down, like, the public
figure that I am. this and that and this and this.
Is there anything else? You know, and so there's something that.
It goes between this intimacy, to your question,
Nick, with this history between Bolingbroke and Richard, you

(01:21:49):
know, that's something that's coming up right now in this moment.

>> Will (01:21:52):
Yeah. Well, and it's interesting, sort of dialing back to
that. On that line and sort of dialing back to what Miranda
said. It's like Bolingbroke and Richard, like, they. Like, on paper,
they seem like they would be cousins and, like, remote cousins. Right. But
they. They really do sort of behave like siblings
occasionally. Don't.

>> Nick (01:22:07):
Like brothers, almost. Yeah, absolutely.

>> Will (01:22:09):
Yeah. But, like, it's in that way. I mean, like, we all just came from
Thanksgiving. Right. But it's like. But in that moment where it's like the people surrounding
them, you know, become like a weapon. Right. It's like it's, you
know, you're. You're deploying the fact that it's a public
conversation. Which is just what you said, Jamal. It's like you're deploying the fact that
it's a public conversation. for whatever reason. Yeah.
You know, it's beautiful.

>> Miranda (01:22:27):
And they also.

>> Jamal (01:22:28):
And it's that mirror image too. Like the poetry
of, so Judas did to Christ as well. And
so that. Another mirroring that, like, again,
these beings represent something bigger than them
about society in that time. And these two
beings in this time represent something
bigger than it.

>> Will (01:22:46):
Than it is.

>> Jamal (01:22:47):
But it's the personal and the collective,
like, coming together in this moment.

>> Nick (01:22:52):
Yeah. It feels like Bolingbroke has the
power and Richard is
taking power with language. You know, it's almost like
Bolingbroke's silence represents the power. Like
he is the quiet king and Richard is
battling it with words.

>> Will (01:23:08):
Well, and there are two. There's two sides to that. And again, like, thank
you. You were about to preempt my question, which is, why isn't
Bolingbroke saying anything? And I feel like that is one answer. And the other
answer is he's legitimate. Like, that's just not
how he operates. Right.

>> Nick (01:23:20):
He's a quiet guy.

>> Will (01:23:21):
Yeah. quiet guy. Or Richard is legitimately, like, besting him and
humiliating. And how much.
How much can Bolingbroke say? Right. Like, it is.
You've cut again, Nick. You two are
smart. but, Nick, you've cut
right to the heart of it. Right. Because it is.
It's about the nature of power. Bolingbroke
should have all of the power in this situation.

(01:23:43):
Bolingbroke has the army. Richard is in prison. All
of Richard's supporters are either dead or they've run
away. and yet
it's not just about, Richard taking power,
but Bolingbroke's hands are tied in a way that
Richard's aren't.
because Bolingbroke is about to have to go and be king now. Right. And
there's certain. What's fascinating, too. I don't

(01:24:05):
know what's fascinating was listening. And it's not in this
scene, but in the scene where
Richard is complaining to, a
Merle about, Bolingbroke,
there's a point where he says, we note how
I'm going to butcher the line, but basically how much popularity he
had with a common people. Right.

>> Miranda (01:24:24):
We did observe it.

>> Will (01:24:26):
Yeah.

>> Miranda (01:24:26):
And he Sort of enters on that. On that line. I think in that
scene we did observe, you know, it's sort of the conversation
is in medias race, you know, that. Yeah, I noticed
how popular he was. And then that ah,
plays out later in the play.

>> Will (01:24:39):
Yeah, yeah. And the fact that I think there's that
specific. There's a specific. I'm a
highly trained professional.
There is a specific image that's sticking in my head of him. like
off goes his bonnet.

>> Miranda (01:24:52):
Oh, off goes is bonnet to an oyster wench.
Yeah.

>> Will (01:24:55):
He's not maintaining his status. And what's. Yeah,
it's why, like, I wish that there was more money in the
classical theater period. But it's so
great when you do all of the plays together.

>> Jamal (01:25:05):
Right.

>> Will (01:25:05):
Because what. Richard's complaints
about Bolingbroke and how sort of like common
he is allowing himself to be turn into
Bolingbroke's complaints about his own son.
Bolingbroke in the next place as the skipping king, he ambled
up and down with, you know, made
himself. Made himself something to
popularity. Right. Beefed himself to

(01:25:28):
popularity. Right. Which we know wasn't the
case. And it was. And Richard was saying that just about,
Bolingbroke when he wasn't the king, right. That like
whoever's wearing the crown is staring at whoever isn't.
And it's like, God, everyone loves that guy.
Yeah.

>> Miranda (01:25:43):
And that's so interesting, Will, that, what
you're saying about his. He's sort of. Richard's
complaining that Bolingbroke is lowering his status.
Whereas. Whereas the way I've always sort of envisioned
that is that he's. He's so popular because he's
respectful even of an oyster wench. You know, he's.
It's a sort of,

(01:26:03):
He's hobnobbing with the, with the common people
with respect. And then of course, then that's what he complains
about. And no one tell me of my unthrifty son, you
know, which is all we hear in display about,

>> Will (01:26:15):
Hal. But yeah, yeah, no, it's
interesting. the only thing, And sort of. The only reason
that I'm asking us to stop and go back is that
we're about to go into this very sort of, We're about to start finishing
each other's sentences and we're about to
start finishing each other's rhymes. Right? And so these
two sort of looking at this mirror thing, like we're about to start

(01:26:35):
going into like these two weirdly end up in
sync for a moment. Moment on a certain level. can we just take
it back to, the other down unseen and full of water
that bucket down and full of tears am I, drinking my griefs. Which
also, like drinking my griefs, is going to be the title of my
memoir. Well, the wilb story,
anyways. continue.

>> Nick (01:26:56):
The other down, unseen and full of water
that bucket down and full of tears am I
drinking my griefs while you mount up on high.

>> Jamal (01:27:05):
I thought you had been willing to resign
my crown.

>> Nick (01:27:08):
I am, but still my griefs are mine.
You may my glories and my state depose, but not
my griefs. I am still, Am I king of those
part of.

>> Jamal (01:27:18):
Your cares you give me with your crown?

>> Nick (01:27:20):
Your cares set up do not pluck my cares
down. My care is loss of
care by old care
done. Your care is gain of care by
new care won. The cares
I give, I have though given
away. They tend the crown, yet
still with me they stay.

>> Jamal (01:27:42):
Are you contented to resign the crown?

>> Nick (01:27:46):
Ay, no, no, I.
For I must nothing be.
Therefore, no, no, for I, resign
to thee. Now mark me how
I will undo myself. I give
this heavy weight from off my head
and this unwieldy scepter from my hand,

(01:28:08):
the pride of kingly sway from out my heart.
With mine own tears I wash away my
balm. With mine own hands I give away
my crown. With mine own
tongue deny my sacred state. With mine own breath
release all duties, O oaths, all
pomp and majesty. I do forswear my

(01:28:28):
manners, Rents, revenues, I forego my acts,
decrees and statues, I deny
statutes, I deny
God pardon all oaths that are broke. To
me God keep, All vows
unbroke are made to thee.
Make me that nothing have with nothing grieved,

(01:28:50):
and thou with all pleased that
hast all achieved. Long mayst thou live in
Richard's seat to sit, and soon
lie Richard in an earthly pit.
God save King Henry
unkinged. Richard says send
him many years of sunshine days.
What more remains?

>> Will (01:29:11):
Good, good, good, good. I just want to dial back one
quick scansion, note for both of
you. It scans revenues, my manners,
rents, revenues I forego. And the only reason I
bring it up is because it is, I think, like the
meter and the verse and rhythm of it,
I think are really important. Specifically, in
this speech, we

(01:29:33):
switch inexplicably to rhyming couplets,
which is a rhyme scheme in which
Shakespeare almost never writes for
a sustained period. Miranda, correct me if
that's.

>> Miranda (01:29:46):
That is correct.

>> Nick (01:29:49):
It's really high poetry.

>> Will (01:29:50):
Yeah, well. And it feels almost. It almost
feels French. Like. It almost feels like Restand or Moliere
for a moment.

>> Nick (01:29:56):
Yeah, Moliere, absolutely.

>> Will (01:29:58):
and I. But I think it's. I think it. It can be
a deliberate choice. I think there's a couple of ways. I think. I think it's operating on a
few levels. I think on the one hand, these two. I think sort of
Jamal talking about that. Sort of like the spotlight
zooming in on, like, are we dealing with intimate or.

>> Nick (01:30:13):
Or the collective
presentation.

>> Will (01:30:16):
Thank you.

>> Miranda (01:30:17):
Presentation.

>> Will (01:30:18):
But it is, on the one hand, these two,
it's almost like to me, it's always sort of read like
Romeo and Juliet slipping into that sonnet together when they're in the party
scene. Like these two on a certain level are insane.
Richard is definitely leading, but
Bolingbroke completes a few of these
rhymes. so it's not like Bolingbroke isn't paying attention. It's not like

(01:30:39):
Bolingbroke is like Bolingbroke is engaging. but
I also. It's that thing of like it sticks
in your memory more. Right. It's like this. If you watch Richard
ii, this is always
not just the sort of the great image of the
inverted crown, which we will. We're not going to worry about this today, but
we're going to attempt some sort of staging of that just so

(01:31:00):
you guys have something to play with. And because it is such
an iconic image.
but it is also like it sticks in the minds of the audience and
therefore it must stick in the minds of the characters in the play.
I mean, this is sort of Richard's last,
It's his last opportunity to have any panache. Right.
And to. It's his last opportunity to sort

(01:31:20):
of fully be king. And talking about taking agency
too. Right. I love this. I
know. No, I. For I must nothing be. He's admitting the fact that he has
no sense of identity. Therefore. No, no. For I resign
to thee. Right. It's not that the crown's being taken away from me.
I'm gonna make sure that everyone sees me put
this back on my head. I'm gonna make sure that

(01:31:41):
everyone sees me hand it to you. And then I'm
gonna end it with a couplet about the fact that I'm gonna be dead soon.
Right. And so I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you. I'm not gonna mandate
this. I'm gonna give you guys the option of
corrupting the pronunciation of says to say,
you don't have to take it, but know that it's on the table as an
option.
Again, Shakespeare, if you've never checked out the work of David and

(01:32:02):
Ben Crystal, who've done a ton of really fascinating
work on original pronunciation. Absolutely
do. It's gorgeous.

>> Miranda (01:32:10):
Let me just follow, on what
Will just said. David and Ben Kristol, their father's
son. They have videos all over YouTube. They
have books.

>> Will (01:32:19):
Books.

>> Miranda (01:32:20):
But they talk about just doing Shakespearean
original pronunciation. And what
we gain, the rhymes we hear, the word,
connections, the image connections,
the thematic connections that we hear, when,
it's spoken in original pronunciation. And it's
not dry, dusty, academic bones.

(01:32:40):
They're really entertaining. Both of them are very entertaining.
it's. It's, Yeah, it's. It's great stuff. As I say, it's all
on YouTube. Or I can. I can send you a link.

>> Will (01:32:50):
Yeah, that'd be great.

>> Miranda (01:32:51):
I'll do that.

>> Will (01:32:51):
It's really. It's fascinating.

>> Miranda (01:32:53):
Yeah, it's great stuff. Yeah.

>> Will (01:32:55):
Found myself on a zoom with Ben and Crystal over the pandemic.

>> Miranda (01:32:58):
Oh, I know, I know. I mean,
both of them are just. Just amazing. and, Will,
I just also wanted to say, the rhyming. The rhyming couplets here,
I think, for me, always sort of add to the.
It's a ritual. He's ritually
divesting himself, as you. As you say, he's
uncrowning himself. And the couplets, reinforce,

(01:33:18):
that idea. I think that it is
a ritualistic unkinging of himself.

>> Nick (01:33:25):
This, is really what Bolingbroke wants to
see. This is what this is all about for him, right?
He's putting this on display so that
the people can see Richard handing him the
crown. Is this sort of on purpose by him?

>> Will (01:33:39):
Like, I would say that.
Miranda? I would say,
that's a question for when we get into the nitty gritty of
rehearsal. Because I think there is a Bolingbroke that
feels more confident and wants everyone to see Richard giving
it. And there's also a version of this
where Bolingbroke would prefer this whole thing was happening
behind closed doors and that suddenly he was just the king.

(01:34:01):
Right? Like, it's not. I
don't know that well. And I don't know. I don't know if
Bolingbroke is going into the scene thinking, like, excited.
I mean, it sounds basic, but I don't know if this is something. If
this. If getting the crown is something
that I don't know what that fills Bolingbroke
with. I don't know if it fills him with terror. At a certain point
it does. but at what point does it fill him with terror? At

(01:34:23):
what point does he realize exactly what has he, what he has
invited upon himself? I don't know. That's my 10 cents,
Miranda.

>> Miranda (01:34:30):
Yeah. And I don't think
he knows. And it's certainly interesting that it's
Northumberland who keeps saying
here, admit to all this. And he
keeps hammering at home and finally Richard
loses, ah,
his composure. Well, his composure. Richard
loses a composure and his bowling Brooklyn says just,

(01:34:53):
just, just let it go. And I always
find the tension in that moment so interesting.
Bolingbroke says let it go. And I realize we're jumping ahead a bit here,
but And Northumberland says the commons will not else
be satisfied. And it's Richard who says they
shall be satisfied. It's not, it's not Henry
Bolingbroke who says they shall be satisfied. It's Richard,

(01:35:13):
you know.

>> Will (01:35:13):
Yeah.

>> Nick (01:35:14):
Ah, because I'm m asking because Richard says what service
am I, am I here to do, basically? And I was
wondering what service is he there to do? What is,
you know, why is he in this room?

>> Will (01:35:23):
He's definitely there to hand the crown. Whether or not Bolingbroke
wanted him to do, to go on this whole sort of like ritualized
thing, I think that's, that's where the nuance
centers in because it is, it's, I mean
it's, he doesn't, it's not, it's not demure,
it's, it's
he calls it like it is and he, you know,

(01:35:44):
whether there's a question mark about the deposing of
a, the murder of a king, there's no
gray area there. and
that's a decision that will haunt again.
I was listening to the Simon Russell Beale book and he's never played Henry iv, but
he did. He was invited
to a, ah, dinner
where he read. He and Jeffrey Stretfield read

(01:36:05):
4.3 from Henry IV Part 2, which is the King's
death scene. And the dinner was held in the Jerusalem Chamber of
Westminster, which is the room where, where Henry
IV died. and there was a point where Simon
Rose Bill is like in the middle of this beautiful speech
he has about I think it's, you know, after,
after, after Hal has made it clear that he's going to be taking it

(01:36:26):
seriously. he looks at the crown and he says, you know how I came by
this crown, O God, forgive and grant it may with thee in true peace live.
And he just sort of spontaneously looked up at the ceiling,
and the building was commissioned by Richard ii.
he also apparently introduced the fork to English culture. But anyways,
the building was commissioned by Richard ii. And he looks up
and the ceiling is just covered with.

(01:36:48):
It's like Richard's coat of arms had been painted a
thousand times on the ceiling, which meant that the last thing that
this man saw in his life
would. Because he would have been lying in the Jerusalem chamber,
dying. The last thing he would have seen would have been a
thousand copies of the coat of arms of the king that he had
had murdered. Right. So it is. It's a
decision, the deposing. Things

(01:37:11):
get out of control for Bolingbroke, definitely. And it
leads to. And whether or not Bolingbroke knows what
he's. Whether or not Bolingbroke directly orders this
murder is up to some debate,
but the
consequences are his. And it plagued him
for the rest of his life. I don't
remember how he got.

>> Miranda (01:37:31):
On that, but, just Bolingbroke's
agency, really. How much of this
he intends to be a public
renunciation of the crown,
I don't know.

>> Will (01:37:44):
For my money, it's a question mark.

>> Miranda (01:37:46):
Yeah.

>> Will (01:37:46):
Thank you.
All right, we got 10 minutes left. so
let's press on. so no more but that you read
these accusations and these grievous crimes committed by your
person and your followers against the state and profit of this
land, that by confessing them, the souls of men may
deem that you are worthily deposed.

>> Jamal (01:38:04):
Must I do so? And must I
ravel out my. Weave it up follies. Weave it,
weaved up, follies. Weaved up,
weaved up follies. Gentle
Northumberland, if thy offenses were upon
record, would it not shame thee in so fair a
troop to read a lecture of them? If

(01:38:25):
thou wouldst, there shouldst thou find one
heinous article containing the disposing
of a king and cracking the strong warrant of
an oath marked with a blot
damned in the book of heaven.
Nay, all of you
that stand and look upon me whilst that

(01:38:47):
my wretchedness doth bait myself.
Though some of you with palate wash
your hands, showing an outward pity, yet
you pallets have here delivered me to
a sour cross. And water cannot
wash away your sin.

>> Will (01:39:04):
Great. I'm gonna hold this just because it's a nice chunk and I want to unpack it.
great. Read well, and I love that you're. I
really. I want to call it. Like, I love that you're taking both of you. I love that you're taking your
time. Like, I think again, if Richard is speaking.
Richard. It's one of those things where it's like, as long as
Richard has the mic, no one can kill
him. You know, like, he has to keep
talking. good. So I love this. the first

(01:39:26):
image that leaps out to me is like, I love the.
To read a lecture of them. Right? That it's,
it's. It's such a mundane image, but
again, I think it just speaks to, like, the inventiveness of
this man. unpack this for me. So what, these
first few lines, what are we saying?

>> Jamal (01:39:43):
Absolutely. Must I do so? And must I ravel
out my weaved up follies? Must I expose
myself? Must I reveal it all?
M. Gentle Northumberland, if thy offenses were upon
record. Northumberland, if yours are upon record, would it
not shame you? Would you not feel
shame if so fair a, troop to read a lecture

(01:40:03):
of them. So if it were you,
would you want all of your wrongs read
like a lecture before this room? if
thou was there, shouldst thou find one
heinous article containing the deposing of a
king and cracking the strong.

>> Will (01:40:19):
Warrant of an oath.

>> Jamal (01:40:20):
If we did that,
you will find this mark and this blot in that
bit. Sorry, we are on YouTube. I don't know who's
watching.

>> Will (01:40:29):
I'm sorry.

>> Jamal (01:40:30):
My mouth, man. My mama's. My mama.

>> Will (01:40:32):
Anyway,
this is excellent. And I just want to flag one thing because I think, both of you
read this, and I just want to give this note to both of you. I think
shouldst is of
less importance than find, what's there shouldst thou
find. And then from there, one heinous article.
Beautiful. Continue, translating.

>> Jamal (01:40:52):
I'm loving, and cracking the strong warren of an oath.
So this, you know. Yo, look at what you're doing
right now, bro. That's the. That's the blot damned in the book of
heaven. Like, damn, this is bad.
nah, that's okay. All of you that stand
and look upon me. Nah, cool. All you standing here
looking upon me whilst thou, whilst that my

(01:41:13):
wretchedness doth bait myself. Though some
of you with palate wash your hands.
So, Pallet, can you all break down Pallet for me? I know we
were talking about it earlier, but I don't have my mouth wrapped around the
meaning of those, so.

>> Will (01:41:26):
That's Pilate.

>> Miranda (01:41:28):
It's conscious Pilate who You know, who washed his hands
of the
accusing, the Jesus.
he washed his hands.

>> Jamal (01:41:38):
Literal. Great.

>> Miranda (01:41:39):
and then as well was saying, then there's that. Yet
you pilot, you pilot. Pilots this
plural. It's as if they have delivered me. It's as if
they. They are the pilots of an airplane, of
a ship. They are con. They.

>> Nick (01:41:52):
Richard's turning himself into Jesus.

>> Jamal (01:41:55):
boom. That makes so much sense. I just started
questioning myself in my head. Thank you all for the clarity. So that's what it
means. Have here delivered me to
my sour cross. So you all have brought me to this
cross. You all have walked me to my death. You have
all, have walked me up the hill, wiped my sweat,
helped me a little bit when I got tired. And now you go and sit here

(01:42:15):
and watch me hang on the cross. So forgive you
for, you know, not what you do.

>> Will (01:42:20):
Yeah, it's interesting.

>> Nick (01:42:23):
It's interesting. Richard really does not like
Northumberland. No, he really doesn't
like Northumberland, the.

>> Will (01:42:30):
Engine of this whole rebellion, which again is fascinating
because by the time that we get to the Henry Forest, Northumberland is totally lost
his mojo. But in this play, Northumberland is the
major. He is the major political power in this
play.

>> Nick (01:42:42):
Yeah. And he's basically saying if you read, you know, if you
read a list of all the bad things you've done,
what you're doing right now would be on it. It would be
the main. What you're doing right now would be the main bad thing you've
ever done in the book of Heaven.

>> Miranda (01:42:56):
The king. Just a fun geographical fact. Of
course. The Northumberlands were always rebelling.

>> Will (01:43:02):
Right.

>> Miranda (01:43:02):
Against the king. Always were.

>> Will (01:43:03):
And.

>> Miranda (01:43:04):
And their. Their ancestral seat is practically
in Scotland. Right.

>> Will (01:43:08):
It's.

>> Miranda (01:43:08):
It's so far away in Scotland, so no wonder
they were always. They were always rebelling.

>> Will (01:43:15):
Well, and our. Our, I'm a. Percy hotspur was my
20th great grandfather. The family fortunes have clearly.

>> Nick (01:43:20):
Wow.

>> Miranda (01:43:22):
How cool is that?

>> Will (01:43:24):
Oh, my God. Family fortune. Like they were. They. They had this
ancestral seat in Scotland, and then it some point,
the family turned into a strange
nebbish, directing Shakespeare out of an apartment in
Pasadena. So some poor decisions were
made somewhere.

>> Miranda (01:43:39):
Along the line or the right ones will. The right
ones.

>> Nick (01:43:43):
they would have loved Pasadena. It's much warmer
there.

>> Miranda (01:43:49):
Right.

>> Will (01:43:50):
Excellent. Jamal. Crystalline. Beautiful. let's press
on.
So, my lord Dispatch, read o'er these articles.

>> Jamal (01:43:57):
Mine eyes are full of tears.
I cannot see. And
yet salt water blinds them not so much.
But they can see a sort of traitors
here. Nay, if I
turn My eyes upon myself, I find
myself a traitor with the rest. For I have
given here my soul's consent to undeck

(01:44:20):
the pompous body of a king
made glory base and sovereignty a
slave proud majesty a
subject state, a peasant.

>> Will (01:44:32):
My lord.

>> Jamal (01:44:36):
No lord of thine thou hawked insulting
man, nor no man's lord.
I have no name, no title.
No, not that name was given me at the
function.

>> Nick (01:44:49):
But tis usurped.

>> Jamal (01:44:51):
Alack, the heavy day
that I have worn so many winters out, and
know not now what name to call
myself. Oh, that I
were a mockery King of snow, standing
before the sun of Bolingbroke
to melt myself away in water
drops. Good

(01:45:13):
king, great king,
and yet not greatly good. And if my word be
sterling, yet in England, let it command a mirror
hither straight, that it may show me what a face
I have, since it is bankrupt of his
majesty.

>> Nick (01:45:31):
Go, some of you and fetch a looking glass.

>> Will (01:45:34):
Good. we've only got three minutes left, so I'm going to hold us there. And I just want to
point out a couple things that left out to me. I think it is significant
that you say His Majesty, not my
Majesty. and I think I just want to
raise the fact that this is where Richard's
humor really starts to kick in and he really starts
to deploy it.

>> Jamal (01:45:52):
Right.

>> Will (01:45:52):
I love. Mine eyes are full of tears I cannot see.
It's the glibest fucking thing he could have said in this moment.

>> Nick (01:45:58):
Right.

>> Will (01:45:59):
All right, take that away. so I just want again, I'm
not prescribing anything, but as we get more
comfortable with the text. Absolutely. If you're playing Richard, you
absolutely have free reign to walk with
Bolingbroke. yeah.
He's dancing between the raindrops. And yet.
And also something that leapt out at me again, just to
sort of, dial way back to the conversation about.

(01:46:21):
Is it a private conversation or is it a public
conversation? I would say that perhaps this is
the only time that that shift is made explicit. That
Nathan's playing me off.
246 marked with a blot damned in the book of
heaven. All of you. Right. That is an explicit
shift from I'm talking to you to My awareness
is shifting to the whole room. okay. It's a

(01:46:43):
pleasure.

>> Miranda (01:46:44):
Can I have 10 seconds? Nathan,
just a reminder, this is helpful, that line, but they can
see a sort of traitors here. it's
helpful if we remember that he's using sort there as
if it were more the word meant assortment. You know, I can see
a whole bunch of traders here, A sort of traders
here. I'm not. Not sort of a cheap trader, but

(01:47:04):
I see there's a whole bunch of you.
Thanks.

>> Will (01:47:09):
Beautiful work, everyone.
Such a pleasure.

>> Nathan (01:47:11):
Yeah, yeah, no, this.

>> Will (01:47:14):
This was.

>> Nathan (01:47:14):
This is great. I mean, I. I thoroughly
enjoyed, the conversation tonight, and. And,
I have a little bit of experience only seeing the play. I've never
worked on it, but, yeah, just all the. All the topics you
guys are covering, you know, from the humor
Richard finds, and
there's too many things for me to go into to kind of recap, but I promise

(01:47:35):
you, it's been a very, enthralling and educational
and informative couple hours, on my end,
so thank you so much. and, I know there's the no
fear Shakespeare and all these modern translations, but. Jamal, when
are you coming out with your rendition?

>> Jamal (01:47:48):
Yo, let me tell you this
grad school, there's always Jamal translation. So, you
know, give me about another decade. I'm working on some other books right
now.

>> Will (01:47:57):
Okay.

>> Jamal (01:47:58):
But I think it will come out because I think it does serve. You know,
I know that I translate in the way from the communities that I come
from. You know, and, like, sometimes we feel. We talk
about this often. Like, Shakespeare is so far, and I have a particular
way because it's just what I know is where I come from. Like, yo,
it sounds different, but it is what this is
saying, which is why, again, Will, I like that you bring it back close

(01:48:18):
to home. It's like this is us talking to each
other, because that makes it accessible for more people.
And so, yeah, it'll come. Keep reminding me.

>> Will (01:48:26):
Oh, good. Okay. All right.

>> Nathan (01:48:28):
Sounds good. yeah, great. Great work, everybody. thank you all
so much. For those watching, come on back, check out, you know,
the future Weeks, and check, out
the other sessions we've been doing. Support, us on Patreon, if
that seems right to you. And, yeah, excited for us
to continue to dive into, deeper. Deeper into
Richard II in our next session. So thank you

(01:48:48):
all so much. Have a great evening, and we'll, we'll meet
again soon.

>> Will (01:48:53):
Bye.

>> Nick (01:48:54):
Thank you, everybody.

>> Nathan (01:48:55):
good night.

>> Miranda (01:48:55):
Bye.

>> Jamal (01:48:56):
Be good to you.

>> Nathan (01:49:02):
Hey there. This is Nathan. One more time. Thanks so much
for checking out the episode today. Please remember to
subscribe so you don't miss anything ahead.
If you enjoy what you've heard, please let others know.
Write a review, post on social media, send
an email, tell your entire acting class
or just a friend. I sincerely appreciate

(01:49:23):
it. You can tag us
@wajpodcast on Instagram,
Instagram and Twitter. We're also on Facebook and
YouTube. I'd love to hear what you think of the
show. Be sure to check out
workingactorsjourney.com for our show notes
with additional info and links mentioned in this episode,
as well as all the episodes, we've got 25

(01:49:44):
plus interviews and 12 plus workshop
presentations. Sign up for the email list
so you're the first to hear about upcoming, projects,
workshops, and much, much more.

>> Nick (01:49:53):
More.

>> Nathan (01:49:54):
I'm Nathan Aegan and enjoy the journey.

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Week 1 - Richard II - (Act 4, Sc 1) The king deposed - The Rehearsal Room

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