Titus Andronicus (5.2), Week 3: "Embracing the Grotesque" - The Rehearsal Room - The Working Actor's Journey

Episode Transcript
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>> Nathan Agin (00:00):
Welcome back to week three. very
excited to see everybody here tonight. the work has
been really fun. The conversations have been great. so I'm
excited to see, you know, how this keeps evolving. And,
I want to thank Miranda for sending around some of the articles
you've been sharing over the couple weeks, that, you know, the interview with
Julie and just other stuff that you've written about, that kind of ties

(00:20):
into some of the themes or about this play. Really
appreciate that. and so, yeah, just excited for, another
evening in the rehearsal room. I will let you guys get to
it. I'll, be listening in as much as possible. I'll try to pop back in at
the end. and that's it. Have a great, great evening.

>> Nick (00:36):
Thank you, Nathan. Welcome back,
everybody. Titus Kast. Has everyone had a nice
week?

>> Anne Gee Byrd (00:43):
Yes.

>> Nick (00:45):
Nobody cooked, anybody's children this week.
Gosh, I've been thinking about this play so much, and it's
such a strange play to have on your mind all the time. It'd be
tough to do a long run of this show.

>> Jamal (00:59):
I have to say, after we left last time, I
was spiritually bothered. I really was. Like,
it's. You know, I always tell my students that you have
to. I create rituals around how we enter the work and
how we leave it. And, like, the
veil is thin for me to just. As a being in
this world, and I have to really take care of

(01:20):
myself leaving this space. And then also the
conversations that we're having and that I
can't not have, that, like, mirrors what we're
going through in our world today and then saying those things
directly as an artist today. And, like, I
get off of this call talking about these things
in this grotesque world that is our grotesque

(01:40):
world. And then I was just, like, shaking and shivering,
and I'm a deep feeler already. And
so it was tough, actually. You're right. It
would be hard to do this whole run,
especially in a world like today, without
really radically taking care of yourself.

>> Nick (01:58):
It's important, you know,
it's an emotional thing to be an actor even, no matter
how much technique you use. And doing a show
like this, like you said, you'd have to really take care of
yourself mentally. Even working on a show like Death
of a Salesman can get really sad and
really depressing. And, the thing about this, too, is it's

(02:18):
not just like, it's grotesque, but it's not
buffoonery. It's really well
written, which makes it
affect you in a different way, you know? And
if Some. Some shows, if you're working on. With this
level of violence, would.
You'd almost be able to turn it off in your head. But it's.
It's Shakespeare, and he did a good job constructing it.

(02:44):
So what I was thinking we'd do this week is we've
broken it down. We've talked about some verse, and I
thought we would, read
it all the way through with two separate
casts. Read it all the way through with one cast,
discuss. Read it all the way through again,
with a different cast and discuss, before
we can set. It's never a total performance with

(03:07):
the working actor's journey, as we know. But I like to
get as close as we can on the final day
to, a performance.

>> Tony Amendola (03:14):
Tony, just a quick note.
unfortunately, I'm doing a, tribute
to Athelt Fugard, and it's next Tuesday,
and we're rehearsing in the afternoon. And so I won't
be here for the last one, I'm sorry to say. But,
just.

>> Nick (03:31):
We'll miss you terribly.

Lord, this is getting complicated because I have a
job down at South Coast Reading
and one of those play reading things,
and my rehearsal is from 11 to 5
that day, so I'm going to be
scurrying around to try and
get to our thing.

Is it. Is it possible? I mean, has it ever been
done? Dare we even suggest that we just skip a Tuesday
and do it the following if people are free?

>> Nick (04:02):
We'll talk to Nathan about that, and I think it's definitely possible.
Although I would like to see Jamal's one man, Titus,
because.

Me too.

>> Nick (04:10):
Me too.

>> Miranda (04:11):
Well, I'm kind of hoping, you
know, the dramaturg gets a walk on and
discovers, you know, discovers, her
second calling.

>> Nick (04:22):
You could change it from Miranda to Tamara.
Indeed. Yeah. You know what, Tony? We'll talk to Nathan and see
if we want to move it around. And if, you know, it
seems like it's pretty casual to me. Whatever. It's
up to everybody. Schedules and Jamal and Miranda and
Charlotte. So, yeah, we'd love to have all of you
here for the final day, though. It would be. It would be epic

(04:45):
for sure, because you guys are so wonderful in this
piece. I really hope you get to do this. I would like to see Angie's
Titus for sure. That. That would be a
hell of a show.

Oh, I've seen it.

>> Nick (04:56):
Yeah.
Oh, man. In that old space, Angie, where you did Mother
Courage. Titus would be really cool in there,
right?

something,

Wasn't it?

>> Nick (05:07):
I Was thinking about that Einstein show that you and I
did the reading of at Pasadena Playhouse.
That was a really cool
father daughter conversation.
Really interesting.

you know, one of the other things which Jamal was talking about
was, you know, the actor's reaction to the material. It was
very interesting in that, in that article
with, ah, Simon Russell Beale,
which is where he was overwhelmed by the violence and. Oh,
I just couldn't. Why? You know, and then he had
that little thing. He spoke to Brian Cox and Brian Cox said,

(05:41):
marvelous play, Marvelous
play.
Everyone is, you know, there's a.

>> Nick (05:51):
Clip of Brian doing this scene online.

There is?

>> Nick (05:56):
Yeah, you can Google it. And, there's
a clip of Brian doing, the speech from the
end of this scene online. That's fantastic. He's such
a. Just an excellent grump. My
goodness. It's like,
I. I wanted to see the show. I haven't seen
the. The show that he did with Kieran

(06:17):
Culkin and I can't even remember the name of it right now.
Succession. Succession. Thank you. Oh, ah, I
gotta see it. Yeah, yeah.

>> Jamal (06:24):
Ah.

>> Nick (06:25):
anyway, what I thought. Let's go ahead and read this through.

I'm having a terrible time accessing
this on my script online.
Suddenly the computer is
just such a dreadful.

>> Nick (06:39):
Ah, you know, Angie, I use the Folger
and if you Google.

I have a, I have a PDF. I can, I can email
you, Angie, right now if you want.

Okay, thank you.

Okay. It's, there's one section of it
and then it starts again. So don't get thrown off by
that begins twice. and then a couple of pages.
I'll send it to you right, right now.
okay, here we go.

>> Jamal (07:05):
Everything we need in the room. That's what I'm talking about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. copy, link,
send a copy.

>> Jamal (07:12):
Here we go.

Okay.
All right.
You know, for some reason. What is your email? Your email
doesn't. I've emailed a minute.

I actually can. Here. Just a minute. Maybe I got it this way.
Okay, I've got it. I've definitely got it.

>> Nick (07:41):
So,

Oh, no, now it's gone away.

Well, give me your email and I'll send.

Just a minute, just a minute. I had it
now I lost the zoom.

>> Nick (07:56):
It's hard to situate all the windows.

No, it's not the situating the windows. It's when I
use one, then the other disappears. I don't
know why that's happening.

>> Miranda (08:08):
Nick, are you the host? You have co host
privileges. Because if you do you could share your screen and
pull the.

Just a minute. I think I've got it. Just a
minute.

>> Nick (08:18):
I don't think so, Miranda, but
I think we're.

I think we're good now. Okay. We're good.

>> Nick (08:24):
You guys are good.

Okay.

>> Nick (08:26):
All right, well, let's, Can we start out?
and I'd like to read the scene all the way through. And, Can. Can
we have Jamal read Titus? And, Angie, would you read
Tamara our first time? And then
we'll, we'll switch and read
it again the second time. And,
Tony, would you play Marcus

(08:47):
and Chiron? And,
I'll read Publius and,
Demetrius.

Okay.

>> Nick (08:54):
That's okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

>> Nick (08:57):
All right.

Nuts. In this strange
and sad habiliment, I will
encounter with Andronicus and say,
I am Revenge,
sent from below to join with him and.
Right. I'm going to start this over. I've been a
little verklempt.

>> Nick (09:21):
Yeah, no problem. Please take your time.

Thus, in this strange and sad habiliment, I
will encounter with Andronicus and
say, I am
Revenge, sent from
below to join with him and right his heinous
wrongs. Knock at his
door, where they say he keeps
to ruminate strange plots of dire revenge.

(09:49):
Tell him revenge is
come to join with him and work
confusion on his enemies.

>> Jamal (10:02):
Who doth, molest my contemplation?
Is it your trick to make me ope the door that so
my sad decrees may fly away and all my studies
be to no effect?
You are deceived for what I mean
to do, see here in bloody
lines I have set down. And what is written

(10:22):
shall be executed.

I just, I am come to talk with thee.

>> Jamal (10:28):
No, not a word.
How, can I grace my talk? Wanting a hand to give it action.
Thou hast the arts of me,
therefore no more.

If thou didst know me, thou wouldst talk with me.

>> Jamal (10:44):
I am not mad.
I know thee well enough.
Witness this wretched stump.
Witness these crimson lines.
Witness these trenches made by grief and
care. Witness the tiring day

(11:06):
and heavy night.
Witness all sorrow that I know the
well for our proud empress,
mighty Tamara.
Is not thy, coming for my other hand?

Oh, no, thou said man.
I am not Tamara. She is
thy enemy, I thy friend.
I am Revenge,
sent for from the infernal kingdom to
ease the gnawing vulture of thy mind
by working wreakful vengeance on thy

(11:43):
foes. Come
now and welcome me to this
world's light.
Confer with me of murder and
of Death, there is
not a hollow cave or lurking
place, no vast obscurity or
misty vale where bloody murder

(12:05):
or detested rape can couch
with fear. But I will find them
out, and in their
ears tell them my dreadful name, Revenge,
which makes the foul offender
quake.

>> Jamal (12:22):
Art, thou Revenge M. And
art thou sent to me to be a torment to mine enemies?

I am.
Therefore come down and
welcome me.

>> Jamal (12:36):
Do me some service ere I come to thee.
Lo, by thy side, where rape and murder stands.
Now give me some assurance that thou art revenged.
Stab them on to that, or tear
them on thy chariot wheels. And then I'll come and buy thy
waggoner and whirl along with thee about the
globe, provide thee two proper palfreys, black

(12:57):
as jet, to hail thy vengeful wagon.
Swift away and find out murderers
in their guilty caves. And
when thy car is loaded with their heads, I
will dismount, and by thy wagon will
trot like a servile footman all day
long, even from Hyperions rising in the east

(13:18):
until this very downfall in the sea.
And day by day I'll do this heavy
task. So thou destroy Rapine
and Murder there.

These are my ministers, and come with me.

>> Jamal (13:36):
Are they thy ministers?
What are they called?

Rape and Murder,
therefore. Called. Because they take
vengeance on such kind of men.

>> Jamal (13:50):
Good Lord. How like the emperor's sons they
are, and you the empress.
We worldly men have miserable, mad,
mistaken eyes.
O sweet Revenge, now do I
come to thee. And if one arm's
embracement will content thee, I will

(14:11):
embrace thee in it, by and by.

This clothing with him fits his
lunacy, whate' er I
forge to feed his brain. Sick humors do you
uphold and maintain in your speeches,
for now he firmly takes
me for revenge. And being
credulous in this mad thought, I'll, make him send

(14:37):
for Lucius his son. And whilst
I at a banquet hold him sure, I'll find
some cunning practice out of
hand to scatter and disperse the giddy Goths,
or at least make them his enemies.
See, here he comes. I will ply my theme.

>> Jamal (14:56):
Long have I been forlorn and awe for thee.
Welcome, dread fairy, to my woeful house.
Repined in murder you are welcome too.
How like the empress and her sons you are,
well off fitted, had you but a Moor.
Cannot all hell afford you such a devil?
For well I walk. The empress never wags, but in her

(15:18):
company there is a more.
And would you represent our queen aright? It were
convenient you had such a devil
welcome as you are. What
shall we do?

What wilt thou have us do? Andronicus.

>> Nick (15:37):
Show me a murderer. I'll deal with him.

Show me a villain that hath done a rape, and I am
sent to be revenged on him.

Show me a thousand that have done the
wrong, and I will be revenged on them all.

>> Jamal (15:52):
Look bout. Look round about the
wicked streets of Rome, and when thou
founds a man that's like thyself,
good Murder, stab him.
He's a murderer. Go
thou with them, and when it is thy
hat to find another

(16:13):
that is like to thee, good
Repine, stab.

>> Miranda (16:17):
Ah.

>> Jamal (16:18):
Him. He is a
radisher. Go thou with
him, and in the emperor's court there is a queen
attended by a Moor. Well, shalt thou
know her by thine own proportion, for up
and down she doth resemble thee.
I pray thee, do on

(16:39):
them. some violent death.
They have been violent to me
and mine.

Well, has thou, lessened us. This shall we do.
But. Would it please
thee, good Andronicus, to send for
Lucius, thy thrice valiant
son, who leads towards Rome a band of
warlike Goths, and bid him come and
banquet at thy house.

(17:09):
When he is here, even in thy
solemn feast. I will bring in the empress and her
sons, the emperor himself, and
all thy foes. And at
thy mercy shall they stoop and
kneel, and on them shalt
thou ease thy angry heart.

(17:30):
What says Andronicus to this device?

>> Jamal (17:36):
Marcus, my brother, to sad Titus calls.
Go, gentle Marcus, to thy
nephew Lucius. Thou shalt inquire him out
among the Goths. Bid him
repair to me, and bring with him some of the chiefest
princes of the Goths. Bid him
encamp his soldiers where they are.

(17:58):
Tell him the emperor and the empress to feast at
my house, and he shall feast with them.
This do thou for my love, and so let him as he regards his
aged father's life.

This will I do, and soon
return again.

And and now will I hence about thy business
and take my ministers along with me.

>> Jamal (18:22):
Nay, nay. Let Rape and Murder stay with me, or
else I'll call my brother back again and cleave to no
revenge but Lucius.

What say you boys? Will you abide with him whilst I
go tell my lord the emperor how I have
governed our determined jest.
Yield to his humor smooth, and
speak him fair, and
tarry with him till I turn again.

I knew them all.

>> Jamal (18:51):
Ah, I knew them, although they supposed me
mad, and will all reach them in their own
devices. A pair of cursed Hellbounds. And
they're damn.

>> Nick (19:03):
Madam, departed pleasure. Leave us here.

Farewell, Andronicus. Revenge
now goes to lay a complot to
betray thy foes.

>> Jamal (19:14):
I, know thou dost. And,
sweet Revenge.

Tell us, tell us,
old man, how shall we be employed?

>> Jamal (19:28):
Tut, I, have work enough for you to do.
Publius, come hither. Cassius and
Valentine.

What is your will?

>> Jamal (19:42):
Know you these two?

>> Nick (19:44):
The emperor's sons, I take them Chiron and
Demetrius.

>> Jamal (19:49):
Publius, 5. Thou art, ah, too much
deceived. The one is
Murder, and rape is the other's name.
And therefore bind them, gentle
Publius, Cassius and Valentine, lay hands
on them. Oft have you
heard me wish for such an hour. And now I
find it. Therefore bind them

(20:11):
sure, and stop their mouths if they begin to cry.

Villains, forbear. We are the empress son.

>> Nick (20:19):
And therefore do we what we are commanded.
Stop. Close their mouths. Let them not speak a
word. Is he sure? Bound?
Look that ye bind them fast.

>> Jamal (20:32):
Come, Come, Lavinia.
Look. Thy foes abound.
Sir, stop their mouths.
Let them not speak to me, but let them hear
what fearful words I utter.
O villains Chiron

(20:53):
and Demetrius.
Here stands the spring whom you have stained
with mud
this goodly summer with your winter mixed.
You killed her husband, and for that foul fault two of
her brothers were condemned to death,
my hand cut off and made merry.

(21:16):
Jest both her sweet hands,
her tongue, and that more dear than
hands or tongue, her spotless
chastity inhuman traitors
you constrained and forced.
What would you say if I should let you speak?

(21:38):
Villains, for shame, you cannot beg
for grace. Hawk wretches, how
I mean to martyr you.
This one hand yet is left to cut your throats,
whilst that Lavinia tween her stumps
doth hold the basin that receives your
guilty blood.

(22:00):
You know your mother means to feast with me and
calls herself Revenge and thinks me
mad. Arc.

Villains.

>> Jamal (22:10):
I will grind your bones to dust,
and with your blood and it
I'll make a paste,
another paste. The cofin. I will read
and make two pasties of your shameful
heads, and bid that strumpet
your unhallowed dam light to the earth,

(22:31):
swallow her own increase.
This is the feast that I have been to, and this the
bank which she shall surfeit. She shall surf it on.
For worse than Philomel, you use my daughter,
and worse than Procne, I will be
revenged.

(22:54):
And now prepare your throats.
Lavinia, come,
receive the blood.
And when that they are dead,
let me go grind their bones to powder. Small.
And with this Hateful liquor. Temper it. And in that

(23:16):
pace let their vow heads be baked. Come,
come, Be everyone officious
to make this banquet,
which I wish may prove more
stern and bloody than the center's feast.
So now bring them
in for I'll play the cook and see them ready against

(23:39):
their mother comes.

>> Nick (23:44):
Beautiful,
Jamal.

>> Jamal (23:48):
Wow.

>> Nick (23:52):
You made a lot of choices in there, Jamal. You took this home and
you took it apart and you did some beautiful
work on it.

>> Jamal (23:59):
It's the conversations that we're having because I truly
think that when I say the veil is thin
between sanity and insanity, I
think that I want to ride that line. And so I get.
Gave myself permission to not know. Like, I was gonna sit down and like,
look at this before. And I said, nah, let's just go in and
rock this joint out. Am I sane or

(24:20):
am I insane? Who gives a fuck? I'm gonna come in
here and get mine. Because that's how he feels. That's the state that
he's in. And like, you don't know. And it's like, if I
come in and play the game and just play the game,
maybe I will get found out. Maybe it does get
scrappy here, you know? And that's the thing for me,
when it gets into my head, because I'm a heady person, as much as I am

(24:41):
emotional, I can get stuck either way. When I get
too much in my head, I forget the reality that they're in the moment
and we're outside of it, you know? And
so, like, how can I throw myself in the moment with the
conversation and even myself as I say
I am not mad, I am not mad,
then let's go there then. If I'm not mad about to do what I'm going

(25:01):
to do, like, what is that? And so it was fun to explore that,
because I think we all have a little bit of that in us. And I
think in our own little ways, we've been pushed in that way. We're
like, oh, try me again, try me again.
And you go and see, like, we've all been there, we just
haven't. Most of us in life,
gratefully, so have not flipped over to
that other side, but it's possible for all of us. So it was

(25:24):
fun to ride the wave.

>> Nick (25:25):
yeah, there was a new. I got a
real sense of fatherhood in that reading though,
you know, and that was a new level,
that we've taken it to. And it's interesting this, this session has become a
lot about family. but I really.
I let. You made a beautiful choice on Chastity. You
peaked, with. With

(25:46):
anger on. On them removing
her chastity. And there it was a. It was a
very bold reading of that
section. And I really got a sense on
that, that that was the thing that Titus was the
most upset with them about. And, it was.
It. It was a very clear, lovely choice.

>> Jamal (26:07):
Legacy gone, you know, like, legacy gone,
you know. And, like, in this time, like, your bloodline is
everything, you know, in this time, who's
born into your bloodline is, you know, what's
projected to defend your family, your bloodline and history
going forward for all time. That's the mentality then,
you know. And so, like her chastity, the ship's
legacy, you know, in the minds of these

(26:30):
beings. And that's the large thing for them.
And they do own it in this time. Quite. That's
what fathers. That's what they're conditioned to
believe. They own their dog. We don't say that today, but, like,
even today, it's still a nuanced way of, like, in the
spirit of us as men, you know, it's hard
to say that, but it is this ownership that is

(26:50):
ingrained in us, you know, and so
that, like, riding the wave. Like, I didn't plan that at all. It was the
wave. When I got to that, it felt like
that.

>> Nick (27:01):
Yes. And you. You went where Shakespeare was
leading you, and it. And it worked perfectly.

And.

>> Nick (27:06):
And I really liked how you faded into,
the. I think it's beautiful language. When he says her
summer with your winter mixed like.
That's a very touching and powerful line. And
from your leap from Chastity, you know, through. That
section was beautiful. Well read. I took some
notes on the whole thing, and I thought we'd go back to the top and

(27:28):
just talk about the scene a little bit, if that's okay with everybody.
and, Angie, I really. I. I really
want to. I want to see you play one of these
roles so bad.
Tamara, you and a.

>> Jamal (27:41):
This.

>> Nick (27:41):
I. I put AI I. I,
into artificial intelligence just for fun.
the costuming of Tamara and her two
sons dressed as revenge to see what AI
would say. And it's. It drew me a picture of
this queen. I wish I could share it with you guys. I don't know how to do that,
but of this queen all in black with this, you
know, this fantastic costume that Tamara

(28:04):
has. Has dressed herself in. And
I, I love the. The joy in the beginning of
this. And you know what? I really Noticed this time,
from your reading, Angie, was that it starts with the
word thus, and it has a feeling that
they've. This is the middle of a
conversation that's already began.
Am, I right with that? Miranda. It seems like she's already

(28:26):
been talking to the boys about this.

>> Miranda (28:29):
Yes. Yeah, I, I think, I think that's right. And certainly
we see that. You know, we see that in Shakespeare all the time.
characters enter sort of in. In medias. Race,
as it were, or in. In the middle of a conversation.

>> Nick (28:40):
So, yeah, yeah,
she's, she's been getting ready for this all afternoon
in her, in her revenge costume,
which I really love. I took a. I,
I thought it was interesting. Something struck me that
Titus comes out after the first exchange and
says, says, I am not mad.

(29:05):
and, and I, There was something about the way that you said it,
Jamal, that I found that line really interesting
that Titus comes straight out and says that.
And I wanted to explore that a little bit.
I, I, I don't know why exactly, but it, it just felt.
Could, could you guys read that little exchange from
Tamara? from line 20, Angie?

(29:26):
and just into that speech, if.

Thou didst know me, thou wouldst
talk with me.

>> Jamal (29:35):
I am not mad.
I know thee well enough.
Witness these crimson lines.
Witness these trenches made by grief and care.
Witness the tiring day and heavy night.

(29:56):
Witness all sorrow that I know thee well. For our
proud empress, mighty
Tamara.
Is not thy coming for my other hand?

No, thou said man, I. I am not
Tamara. She is
thy enemy, I thy friend.

>> Nick (30:18):
Okay, we can stop there.

What?

>> Nick (30:20):
That exchange continues to
jump off the page, and
I find it so interesting. He could start that speech with I know thee
well enough. He doesn't need to say, I am not mad.
And we discussed this back and forth about whether or not
his madness is coming out. But I think it's interesting that he,
he wants her to know that right off

(30:41):
the bat. What do you think about that section, Tony?

it's funny. I was,
I was thinking. I was looking at the section in a whole,
whole different way that, I was
trying to figure out when it changes.
They're personifying
not human beings, but these, these furies,
if you will. So I think, you know, it's the

(31:07):
director's hat on me, that there's a lot of fun
in that for them.
you know, I mean, the whole thing. I am revenge said from the
infernal kingdom to ease the gnawing vulture
of thy mind. By, you know, they're almost
conjuring. They're like the witches. I don't think it
serves us the really.

(31:27):
I mean, we're doing that, but I think in production wouldn't really
serve us to do it, to do that section
realistically, because you got a switch when
all of a sudden they're confabing with each other. What do you think, son?
Should we do this? I don't know. Should we do it? Oh, and
then. And in the kind of way,
it sort of heightens,

(31:48):
some. So that's what I was thinking. It's not. That's where
my mind was when you guys were doing that, I'm sad to say, but
so I.

>> Nick (31:55):
No, no, no. That's what I was.

Let me be the really mundane voice of
here. And part of me is
thinking they are separated
by, he's above, she's below.
Titus is up there with somebody.
He's not up there by himself.

What makes you say that?

I don't know. I I It hardly,
be. Because when he calls people,
they're right there.

>> Jamal (32:27):
So that's when he comes out of the room, I believe.
But I think because his first m line is, who doth molest my
contemplation? It seems like he seems. And
then he says, is it your trick to make me open the door? Which means that
based on what he has planned to do, based on his
vengeful spirit, it seems like to me,
are you trying to make me open the door to lessen what I'm

(32:47):
about to do, what I'm about to move through?
And so it also makes me think, get into that line. I am not
mad. And it seems like there has
been, like. From that first speech,
it seems like there's been pressure on him to, like, find
some sense. And he's like, I'm not mad. I'm doing it.

>> Nick (33:05):
And he's writing. Am I am I
correct, Jamal? Is that what you envisioned?
He's writing. He's putting words down.

>> Miranda (33:14):
Yeah. The, the bloody lines are lines.

>> Nick (33:17):
So he's writing words in his blood,
basically.

>> Miranda (33:23):
Yeah. And that. And, and in the Tamor version, of
course, that's quite literally what he's doing. He's using his own
blood. But in, in Shakespeare's text, it doesn't. It
can mean that the subject matter.

Of a bloody subject, it would be really wonderful. And where is
he getting the blood? He's getting it from the stump.

>> Nick (33:40):
From his hand.

>> Miranda (33:40):
Yeah.

>> Jamal (33:41):
Yeah.

>> Miranda (33:41):
And that. Yeah, in the Tamor. That's right.

Is that where he gets it in the table.

>> Nick (33:44):
Yeah. I think she literally
dabbing a paintbrush in his hands.

>> Miranda (33:49):
Oh yeah, yeah.

>> Jamal (33:52):
That's why I say the line between mad and not
mad. I don't know if that's the conversation.
I think this is revenge. I mean writing things down in
bloody lines. Like I think he's not
mad because like whatever he do's next, he
just doesn't give, he doesn't care.

>> Nick (34:10):
Well, when you said I laughed when you said I am not
mad because Tamara's off here going if thou didst
know me, that would. And he's
like I'm not mad, you know, I like I
see what you are. And it was such. Sorry. Go ahead,
Tony.

No, no, you know, it's funny, I'm just
again thinking like a director. It doesn't. I know if I were the
actor playing Tamara and you did what you just did,
I would go against that a million. But I think there
is a way to use the if you will, the witches
in the Scottish. You know that there's some sort of
ritualistic thing she does with their son that doesn't have to

(34:45):
be silly, but it has, you know, that
gives a kind of otherworldliness because they're trying
to convince them. Him. M. They're not trying to convince them
that they're Convinced Simon, that they're three
regular people called I think they're
the embodiment of these things. It never hit
me before and somehow bringing that out. I don't know.

(35:06):
What do you think, Angie? Because I mean us is in your,
in your What would you think if I were directing this and
during that sense section of I Am Revenge
said that I, I would score that a little bit
and ask you to, to find a way
without being comical and fun to find a
way to ritualize that. Would you run away

(35:26):
and never work with me again?

No, no, I try it.

Yeah.

I'm. I'm always under.

>> Miranda (35:40):
I ah.

Guess the question here is how much
does. Do they believe in the possibility
of there being actual a
creature called Revenge?

>> Nick (35:54):
I

Mean I've been playing with a
very modern kind of sensibility that,
that knows that this is made up and
aren't I clever? As
opposed to somebody who like Lady
Macbeth could. Could think she was.
She had control of it and then suddenly she didn't.

(36:16):
I don't know. Just saying how much do they
actually believe that there
are such creatures as Revenge?

You. It's funny because I guess for me, I don't Think they
do. I mean, you know, there is, conceptually, but I don't think
that they think that they are these things. I think
they're giving the best performance they can.

No, but do they believe in the actual
existence of these things in the world?

>> Nick (36:42):
Yeah. Miranda, historically, what do you think we're looking
at?

>> Miranda (36:47):
you know, I think, I mean, that's
a. That's a great question. It depends on
how sort of far back we want to go with the sort of
classical setting. You know, certainly the.
The. The ancient Greeks, more
than the Romans, believed in the. In the Furies. Johnny, I think that
was your word. I mean, these are. They're sort of the event. They're the
oranges. Right. They're the avenging Furies.

(37:09):
What? What? I. I had a question that. That
I think is sort of adjacent to what we're talking about, but may offer
a way in. I feel as though there's a moment in the
scene when Titus
completely takes control.
and I think Tamra never realizes, but he
has. And I can see several

(37:31):
moments at which that could possibly be
happening. And there's an argument for all of
any of those moments. So I wondered
what the three actors, and Nick as director,
where you think that moment
happens. And, you know, certainly, you
know, art thou revenge? You know, certainly

(37:51):
by then, Titus has taken control and
Tamara doesn't realize it. So
that's one possible way to think about the scene. But
I wondered what the three of you thought, and
maybe we can't pinpoint it specifically, you know.

>> Jamal (38:07):
Thank you.

>> Nick (38:07):
Yeah.

You know, as far as these otherworldly, These
concepts of, You know, I. I keep thinking of all. I
keep thinking of Iago, and I think of Edmund, who are
nihilists in a world that is religious.
Hm. That, you know, there's no, you,

>> Nick (38:22):
Know.

I mean, Edmund even says it, you
know. I mean, you know, when, you
know, oh, I. You know, I would be this way. I don't care if there were
a God, weren't a God, if there's star. I was born under the star.

>> Miranda (38:34):
The mainliest star.

Exactly. You know, which is a substitute for,
you know, because they. They didn't really want to use religious things.
So, I. I mean, so I guess it's not. I
guess I was thinking about when Angie said it's not an either
or. Some people, I think, do believe in it, and some
people don't, you know, and that's their uniqueness.
And generally, as a rule, it seems

(38:58):
that the, The darker characters do not.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

>> Jamal (39:02):
Then it's also looking at. In the time too. What did people
think? Think of people with psychosis. What
did he think? That with psychosis, heard other
voices because they were mad. And so if there's, like we have today,
if we have a social, consciousness, which they did at this
time, what we did with those people who were not normal,
who were mad, who were considered insane by
insanity. They don't believe in it, but they believe that someone that

(39:25):
is gone with a disorder, that hasn't been given a name
yet, we forget these things. We have these conversations, which is interesting to
me. But, like, that's what's happening here.
They actually believe that he is mad, so they can perceive him.
So this world has a perception about mental illness.
We're just in a world that has a lot of names for these things today.
But these people were cast out from society. We would

(39:45):
talk to them and play these things like, oh, they're here. They can't. They're not
really here. And then, because they believe it.
Oh, you want to play games? Okay. Beforelorn. Oh,
you. Oh, murder. Oh, no. Right. Because
they know the consciousness of the world they're living in, what we think about these
people and how we hide these people away and manipulate these people. People
to make our world seem normal, in the world.

I.

That's exactly the way I have been thinking of it.
That since I am convinced myself
that he really is crazy, I can get away
with.

>> Miranda (40:15):
That's how you hear it.

I don't believe it. I mean, that's been the
basis of what I've been doing. But it did disturb me at
one point. Does she believe
in such creatures? I don't know.

>> Nick (40:26):
I think that, you know, watching this, I. If I'm
directing something, I tend to look at it from an audience
perspective. And things that would be confusing are not.
And as an audience watching,
the last reading of this, this section
felt very important to me. And just as Miranda
said, art thou revenge really sticks

(40:47):
out. And. And I'd like to know the different. You know,
here are the different choices from the different Tituses.
When he decide. When does he decide to play
along? you know, and
is that the choice that he makes? Is it during her
speech, you know, when she says, I am not
Tamara. She's thy enemy and I thy friend?
And, you know, I. It seems to me that.

(41:10):
That Titus knows what's going on from the
beginning. But that's what I. Yeah, that's just what
I gather from the scene.

>> Jamal (41:18):
So that's just what he says. And the audience knows
that that is Tamara and her sons. And he
says literally it is Tamara. And so, like, the
audience is like. He literally says what he knows. The audience,
I feel like, is with them, Titus,
because they know.

>> Nick (41:34):
What do you think, Tony?

I think it's one of those things that the longer you can
postpone it and, you know, it's almost like
he's. He's really, really looking. But clearly,
by the time, as Jamal says. By the time he says that line
and the other thing that happens in this thing, I don't think
for a second Marcus
recognizing them. Because Marcus definitely

(41:57):
recognizes them, I believe. Sure would leave
Titus unless there was some
sort of. I tried to get that. Oh,
okay. I. I see. Okay, I'll play along.
I'll go do this thing and. And go to
Lucius and tell them that this is the deal going
on and. And tomorrow and the two sons are involved in.

(42:18):
But I don't know. You know, it seems there's.
There's argument, as you say, that right off the get
go. It's a. Ah, but I don't see the dramatic,
value of that. I think he's trying to figure out
a way. He has to figure out a way of
somehow, saying those lines but perhaps being puzzled
by them, you know, being incredulous.

(42:39):
Sorry.

What if he. He's in the inner above? Right.

Yeah.

What if he doesn't actually see her
until he says, I'm not mad. in. In
other words, what if he says all of that stuff
not necessarily knowing who he's talking to?
he peeks over the edge of the
inner above and.

(43:04):
And sees her after she says, if thou didst know
me, that was talk with me. And then he
engages. I. I don't know if it's just.

Yeah, no, no, I agree. That would be a solution. Yeah.

>> Jamal (43:15):
I would say we can try. But I also think too, because, like,
as soon as he comes down, he keeps saying, oh, you look just like
them. And then as soon as she leaves, he says. And so I
think sometimes we try to make things dramatic that is
in the language already. Like, and I feel like
we're fighting against what it's saying. Like, as soon as she
leaves, like, you're right, Tony. Yes. Marcus knows as

(43:35):
soon as he calls them over, he said, who are they? And they say who they are.
Everybody knows.

Everybody knows. yeah, everybody knows.

>> Jamal (43:42):
And the whole script says everybody knows. Tamara's crazy.
she's playing and her two sons got something wrong with them.

>> Nick (43:49):
Yeah. And there's a sense. I. I got a sense from your
reading, Jamal and I liked it that, you. You know, Titus
was shocked at the audacity of,
of Tamara to come in this outfit with
chiron and demeanor and think that he was this
crazy. You know, I mean, it's, That's one way to
go. You know, I. If I. If we were doing this
together, I might have two different stagings. If, you

(44:12):
know, if. If another Titus had a different choice on that.
But, I think that that line, I think we should really
pay attention to. Art thou revenge and art thou
send to me to be a torment? Because
the reading of that line is quite important on
the choice that Titus is making for the rest of the scene, I believe.

>> Jamal (44:30):
And Miranda, you asked a question earlier about when does he
take control? Because he comes down and he asks
them, what shall we do? And then they ask
him back, what would you have us do? And
then he says, okay,
that's why. That's why I don't believe the. I think the other
side is like, trying to force something, and we should try.

(44:51):
I'm not saying that it's a bad idea, because there's no bad idea. So I'm not doing
that. But I do feel in my bones that the language is
telling us something very clearly.
M. Very clearly. And I don't know why push
against what's so clear in the story.
Titus does not change in this scene.
He m. Goes, I will say that.

>> Nick (45:10):
Anthony Hopkins does play it with confusion
in the film. You know, I believe. I believe he
played.

>> Jamal (45:16):
Convinced him.

>> Nick (45:18):
Yes. I mean, he. And as. And the
audience isn't sure. You know, the audience
definitely is like, is he.
Is she. Is this gonna work? Is. Is he really
gonna buy that she's revenge? And, you know, you do get
a sense of that.

You know, the
madness. Two. Two things. The
madness is sort of thrust upon Titus
when. When the. The worst possible things happen
to him. How does he respond? We talked about it last week.
Is. He laughs. He
laughs in the face. And that, you know, that is strange.
Secondly, in terms of revenge,

(45:56):
Tamara is revenge in the sense that
she's revenging her family. So she is
literally revenge. Both people are. It's a war
of revenge. She's revenging. It's that cycle of
violence that we've talked about. So in a sense,
I wonder. I wonder if there isn't, You
know, Tamara is trying to sell Titus that

(46:17):
she's. She's
revenge for his purposes, when in fact
she's revenge for her purposes. You know what I mean? So it's,
ah, a. There's a, There's an interesting thing
of, of that word in this particular
case, because that's. I mean, revenge is what
she's after too, in that
case, in that way they actually share a goal

(46:40):
in a kind of way. You know, Am I being.

>> Miranda (46:41):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

>> Nick (46:43):
Yeah.

>> Miranda (46:44):
Yeah. 100%. And the. And the family
particularly. And this is why I was thinking this week that
that sort of unwitting cannibalism and particularly
unwittingly eating your. Your children,
that the reason why it's such a fitting emblem for
revenge and just shows up again and again and again, you know,
from classical authors right on through to Sunday nights,

(47:04):
you know. Well, we didn't have cannibalism, but the Sunday
night's episode of the Last of Us was all about these cycles
of revenge and how they dehumanize. This is the thing.
I think it's happening in Titus. You know, Titus
becomes dehumanized. Cameron becomes dehumanized. You know,
the cycles of vengeance don't just trap us in cycles of
vengeance, but we become subhuman

(47:24):
if we. We lose our humanity and are able to do
things like unwittingly consume our own children.
So it's all very, you know, I think
it's all there, this scene. It's incredible.

Yeah, I guess. I don't think it's like, hey, what should we play
for. For Titus? I don't think. Oh, should we play.
I don't know. What. What should we do?
It's very deliberate. And the same. The reason why she says
rape and. And murder are very deliberate.

>> Miranda (47:51):
yeah. And the stakes are very high. I
mean, she's. She wants to get Lucius there and. And go
persuade the giddy Goff to, you know, not attack Rome.
M. I mean, they're like, barbarians are at the gates here.

Absolutely.

>> Miranda (48:03):
Gates are really high.

>> Jamal (48:05):
Yeah. One thing you said, Tony, about like, you
know, scoring the piece and like even
visualizing it too. Because the matter. What do we believe? What do
we not believe in worlds like this when
so much war is coming on, and I keep saying it, veils do
become thin. And like the music and the timber that
we bring in and directing brings in spirit. That's why
we direct in the way that we do. We bring in light and we play with

(48:28):
shadows, we play with sound, which is vibration
that literally shifts our beings. And so, like, I love
the question of not knowing and is it this or if it
that? Because the scoring would do that. The
body's breathing on stage, like
voice changes, vibration in the air. And so I like that the
question is just lifted. And we don't know because the
scoring of it and the space in between it is when we start to

(48:51):
feel. Feel how dark this world is,
how much we've lost our humanity and how lost.
We don't even see that we're always talking to ourselves.
To your point, they're both revenge. And I think that's
the poetry of, like, you know, you can try. We can make
it literal, but, like, we forget that this is a poet.
And like, poetry is spirit. Poet brings

(49:11):
spirit in and creates spaciousness for us to think and feel
more than we can land on. And so I love
this conversation because I think all of it is true. And all of it dances
in the air. And in moments like this, as it is dancing in
our air and audience.

>> Miranda (49:25):
Members heartbeats start to synchronize when they're
watching live theater together.

>> Nick (49:30):
Well, m.
My next note, relates to this, of course.
I have a note that's to Angie that I
can't stop laughing when you say, these
are my ministers and come with me. And your
reading of that is absolutely hilarious. But one
of the reasons why that line lands so hard is because

(49:51):
of the speech before it, where
I do get a sense in the speech before it
that Titus. I mean, you get,
that he knows what's going on definitely by that point, when
he says, well, kill your sons and I'll come down.
absolutely.

Yeah. He has to. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Nick (50:08):
It feels like he's in control. And this is the first
moment when Tamara is knocked off balance a
little bit. and it. It's.
There's a relief to the audience. And I think
that's why we laugh in that line.

>> Jamal (50:22):
I felt.

>> Nick (50:23):
I felt a sense of, oh, thank God. Because
you. You. It. It's just the. The sword
fight. We feel unsure.
We're not sure where Titus stands. I. I'm not sure
what his balance is at this point.
and then I have another note that the
section where he says, but we

(50:44):
worldly men confuses me a little bit.
it's a similar beat to the one before. But why does he choose
to. Then he goes back to madness
in a way.

Okay. You know, something just occurred to me, Nick.
And this, ah, effects.
Tamara announces herself. Tamara announces
herself. His revenge. It's Titus.
Am I wrong? Who says rape and murder?
Titus is the one who calls the two ministers
rape. And murder.

Yes.

So that's an indication, because of course. Of
course they are raped and murdered.

>> Nick (51:23):
That's fascinating.

>> Jamal (51:25):
Yes.

yeah.

>> Miranda (51:25):
So. Exactly. Yeah.

So, this. And again,
you know, in the same way that, Tamara has to.
And the boys have to convince Titus of themselves
or at least attempt in some fashion, Titus
has to get Tamara out of there so she can start.
So he can start dealing with these boys.
Yeah, because it's like a ladder,

(51:48):
ultimately, you know, getting rid of the boys.
But it's watching, It's what he does to the mother
that is the. Because he's the father,
you know, and what he does to the mother is the, But it's
interesting. It didn't occur to me either.

>> Nick (52:03):
I'm blown.

>> Jamal (52:04):
My mind is blown. I was like, whoa. Yeah.

>> Nick (52:06):
Can you guys help. Help me with this as
a director. When Titus exits,
where is he going?

They're going to the kitchen.

>> Jamal (52:17):
Go cook. He about to put on his.

>> Miranda (52:18):
Yeah, get his.
Get his knives. His. The late.

>> Nick (52:24):
I think it's an interesting speech before
his exit. that's. This is the one I wrote down.
you know, it's also really funny. He's
like, gosh, you know, you. You look a lot like those people, but,
you know, we
worldly men have miserable, mad, mistaking
eyes, which is a beautiful sense m.

(52:45):
Alliteration and so much, you know, good stuff
in that language.

You know, if again, because,
you know, we're. We're on. We're virtual. So you've been on the room.
If I were directing this. Come, come, be everyone
officious. Boom, boom. Someone would come out and bring me the
apron and the cooks hat right then and that.
Because to make the banquet and that. And I
think it does turn grotesquely humorous at

(53:10):
that point.

>> Nick (53:11):
Yes, there's definitely a change right there.
and you could. You can. You know, I could hear it in your reading as well,
Jamal. You came to so much. You had such a nice
flow. but, yeah, I was thinking. I'm
like, what exactly? How would we stage that? There's
so much opportunity for staging in this scene.
So much fun stuff. and

(53:32):
then, let's see, what else did I have? Oh,
where was that one part? Oh, it was in the. In the next
little bit. one note that I
noticed that I really liked Angie is, the.
The section. There's an opportunity to
see how she treats her children and
what air I forged to feed his brain. Sick humors

(53:52):
do you uphold and maintain in your speeches?
She has a. There's a It's a beautiful
parenting moment. You know, it's a. It. It
seems like a fun moment where you get to see how she
orders. Orders her kids around. and I got a little
sense of your relationship with them right now, and I wanted
even more of it. I really. I
like how she orders them, you know? You guys are going

(54:15):
to do this?
Yeah. That's a beautiful little speech that she has after
he leaves. And it's nice for us to look behind the curtain,
which is what that speech gives us.
can we read that little section just for our audience so they can hear what
we're talking about from line 65

(54:35):
through line 81?

65 through 81.

>> Nick (54:41):
Yeah. Jamal, do you see that? Where it says, good Lord, how like the
emperor, sons they are before he leaves?

>> Jamal (54:47):
I'm right there.

Yeah.

>> Jamal (54:50):
Good Lord, how like the empress sons they
are, and you the empress.
But we worldly men have miserable,
mad, mistaking eyes.
O sweet revenge, now do I come to
thee. And if one arm. And if one arm's
embracement will content thee, I will embrace thee in

(55:10):
it, by and by.

This. This closing with him fits
his lunacy. Whate' er
I forge to feed his brain. Sick humors do you
uphold and shall maintain in your speeches,
for now he firmly takes me for
revenge. And being
credulous in this mad thought, I'll make him send for

(55:35):
Lucius, his son. And
whilst I at a banquet hold him, sure, I'll find some
cunning practice out of hand to scatter and
disperse the giddy Goths,
or at the least make them his
enemies. See, here he
comes. And I must apply my theme.

>> Nick (55:56):
Yeah, it's very interesting that the tide seemed to have
turned before that.
I mean, don't you guys think I. I get a sense where,
you know, Titus has found some ground to stand on.

>> Jamal (56:11):
And they both. If they both, you know, because they are separate at this
point, they both feel like they've done that. They both are just.
They both feel like the Tamara is deceived, but they both
feel like they got each other and then they come down
and see each other.

>> Nick (56:26):
Yeah, I, And it's funny, it's almost like she
The. The opening line, this closing with him fits his
lunacy. It's almost like she's justifying it to herself.
But I get a sense that she's still not entirely sure
even. You know, it's. She's almost trying to convince
herself and the boys.

>> Miranda (56:42):
That's.

That's what I suddenly felt this time, was that she Was
gather. She was assessing all of the
information she'd been taking in in the first,
part of the scene and decided, yeah, I think he is
crazy.

>> Nick (56:55):
Yes. And you can see. And brilliant as
Shakespeare is, you could see. I love that you can watch
the decision making process of that and
then see her say, this
works. Now I must ply my theme.
Yeah, Very, very, very great.
Do you have anything to add language wise for us,

(57:16):
Miranda?

>> Miranda (57:20):
I was just checking a couple of things, actually. The, The
first thing I checked was that that stage direction,
towards the end of the scene, after Titus exits and
then enters with a knife and Lavinia with a basin, and that.
That is, that is in the Quarters and in the Folio,
interestingly. So, that's not the work of a
later editor. and then, I was also

(57:40):
noting in the Arden, they say this use of the
word closing, meaning essentially, you know, here,
this, as we agree with him,
disagreeing with him, suits his lunacy. the
Arden points out that, the OED actually
first cites measure for measure as the first
example of using that word clarity, closing to mean agreeing.

(58:00):
So the OED is wrong,
of course, because this, this is earlier than
measure. So anyway, that's extremely
arcane, but, but otherwise, no, you know, I think. I think the
language is. Is wonderful. And it just,
you. You guys make it complete. It's not
complete until it's being performed. So

(58:22):
thank you for that.

>> Nick (58:24):
Thank you. Do you
guys. Why don't we switch up, read it one more
time and see if we can gather some different.
A, different look and a different angle at it.

>> Jamal (58:36):
Awesome. do you want to
play who this time around?

>> Nick (58:41):
Well, Tony, why don't you give us a Titus? And Angie,
do you mind reading Tamara again?
And, Jamal, do you want to. Do you want to do
Chiron or Demetrius? Which one sounds good to you?

>> Jamal (58:53):
Either way, Chiron sounds great. And then
we got someone else. Publius.

>> Nick (58:57):
Chiron has. I really like the line the emperor
sons that. That Chiron has. There's a. There's a
fun little beat. And you want to play Publius and Chiron,
Jamal? Sure. I'll read Marcus and
Demetrius.

>> Jamal (59:10):
Beautiful. Sounds good.

By the way, for this one, just for the
hell of it. What she's wearing is not
fantastic and well thought out. It.
She really hates being in it.

>> Nick (59:22):
Oh, great.

And it's. It's, it's.
She probably picked up something from the cook,
and it's just a little smelly and.

Yes.

Ah, I love That I just offering.

>> Nick (59:33):
You that I love that. That's fantastic.

Thus, in this strange and sad
habiliment, I will encounter with
Andronicus and
say I am, Revenge, sent from
below to join with him and right his
heinous wrongs.
Knock at his study, where
they say he keeps to ruminate strange plots

(01:00:00):
of dire revenge.
Tell him Revenge is
come to join with him and work
confusion on his enemies.

>> Tony Amendola (01:00:14):
Who doth molest my contemplation?
Is it your trick to make me ope the
door that so my sad decrees may
fly away? All my study
be to no effect. You are
deceived. For what I mean to do, see
here, in bloody lines, I have

(01:00:35):
set down. And what is written shall be
executed.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:00:40):
I am come to talk with thee.

No, not a word.
How can I grace my talk? Wanting a hand to give
it action? Thou hast the
odds of me, therefore no more.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:00:55):
If thou didst know me, thou wouldst talk with me.

I am not mad. I know
thee well enough.
Witness these crimson lines. Witness
these trenches made by grief and care.
Witness the tiring day and heavy night.
Witness all sorrow that I know

(01:01:18):
thee well. For our proud empress,
mighty Tamara. Is
not thy coming from my other hand?

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:01:27):
Know, thou sad man? I am
not Tamara.
She is thy enemy, I, thy friend.
I am Revenge,
sent from the internal kingdom to
ease the gnawing vulture of thy mind
by working wreakful vengeance on thy foes.

(01:01:54):
Come down and welcome
me to this world's light.
Confer with me of murder and of
death.
There's not a hollow cave or
lurking place, no vast
obscurity or misty veil

(01:02:14):
where bloody murder or detested
rape can couch for fear. But I
will find them out,
and in their ears tell them my
dreadful name, Revenge, which makes the
foul offender quake.

Oh, art, thou
Revenge and also sent to
me to be a torment to my enemies?

>> Miranda (01:02:39):
I am.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:02:41):
Therefore come down and
welcome me.

do me some service ere I come to thee. Lo,
by thy side, where rape
and murder stands. Now give
me some assurance that thou art
Revenge. Stab them
or tear them on thy chariot wheels. And then I'll
come and be thy waggoner and whirl along with

(01:03:07):
thee about the globe. Provide thee two
proper palfreys, blackest jet to
hail thy vengeful wagon. Swift
away and find out murderers
in their guilty caves. And when
thy car is loaden with their heads, I will
dismount and by thy wagon wheel trot

(01:03:27):
like a servile footman all day long,
even From Hyperion's rising in the east
until his very down falling the sea.
And day by day I'll do this
heavy task. So thou
destroy Rapine and murder
there.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:03:47):
these are. These are my ministers, and come with me.

Are they thy ministers? What are
they called?

>> Jamal (01:03:56):
Rape?

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:03:56):
and Murder?
they're full called because they take
vengeance on such like of men.

Good Lord. How like the emperor. Sons there,
and you the empress.
But we worldly men have
miserable, mad, mistaking eyes.
O sweet revenge,
now do I come to thee. And if
one arm's embracement will content thee, I will

(01:04:25):
embrace thee in it by and by.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:04:30):
This closing with him fits his lunacy,
whate' er I forge to feed his brain. Sick humors do you
uphold and maintain in your speeches,
for now he firmly takes me
for revenge. And,
being credulous in this mad thought, I'll make him

(01:04:51):
send for Lucius his son.
And whilst I at a banquet hold him, sure I'll find
some cunning practice out of hand to scatter and
disperse the giddy Goths, or
at the least make them his enemies. See, here he
comes, and I must ply my theme.

Long have I been forlorn, and all
for thee. Welcome, dread
Fury, to my woeful house.
Rapine and Murder, you are welcome too.
How like the empress and her sons you are.
well are you fitted, had you but a Moor.

(01:05:31):
Could not all hell afford you such a devil?
For well, I won't. The empress never wags, but in
her company there is a more. And would you
represent our queen aright? It were convenient you had
such a devil. But, welcome as
you are. What shall
we do?

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:05:50):
What wouldst thou have us do, Andronicus?

>> Nick (01:05:57):
Show me a murderer. I'll deal with him.

>> Jamal (01:05:59):
Show me a villain that hath done rape, and I am sent to be
revenged on him.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:06:03):
Show me a thousand that hath done thee wrong, and
I will bear revengin on them all.

Look round about the wicked streets of Rome.
And when thou finds the man that's like
thyself, good Murder, stab him.
He's a murderer. Go thou with him. And
when it is thy hap to find another that is like
to thee, good Rapine, stab
him. He is a ravisher.

(01:06:30):
Go thou, with them. And in the emperor's court
there is a queen attended by a Moor.
Well shalt thou know her by thine own
proportion, for up and down she doth
resemble thee. I pray thee, do
on them. some violent deaths that have
been violent to me and mine.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:06:50):
Well hast thou lessened us, and this we shall
do. But
would it please thee, good Andronicus, to
send for Lucius, thy thrice valiant son,
who leads towards Rome a band of warlike
Goths, and bid him come and banquet at thy house.
When he is here, even at thy

(01:07:11):
solemn feast, I will bring in the empress and her
sons, the emperor himself and
all thy foes. And at
thy mercy shall they stoop and
kneel, and on them shalt
thou ease thy angry heart.
What says Andronicus to this device?

Marcus, my brother.
Tis sad Titus calls. Go,
gentle Marcus, to thy nephew Lucius. Thou
shalt inquire him out among the Goths. Bid him
repair to me and bring with him some of the chiefest
princes of the Goths. Bid him encamp
his soldiers where they are. Tell him the emperor

(01:07:55):
and empress too feast at my house, and
he shall feast with them. This do thou,
for my love. And so let him, as he regards his
aged father's life.

>> Nick (01:08:07):
This will I do, and soon return again.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:08:10):
Now will I hence about thy business
and take my ministers along with me.

Nay, nay,
let Rape and Murder stay with.

>> Jamal (01:08:20):
Oh, no.

Nay, Nay, let Rape and Murder
stay with me, or else I'll call my brother back
that and cleave to no vengeance but
Lucius.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:08:33):
what say you, boys? Will you abide with him whilst I go tell my
lord the emperor how I have governed our
determined jest?
Yield to his humor smooth and speak him
fair, and terry with him
until I turn again?

I know them all, though they suppose
me mad and will or reach them in their
own devices. A pair of cursed
hellhounds. and the damned.
Madam, depart at pleasure. Leave us
here.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:09:11):
farewell, Andronicus.
Revenge now goes to Laocon. M. Plot
to betray thy foes.

I know thou dost, and, sweet Revenge,
farewell.

>> Jamal (01:09:25):
Tell us, old man, how shall we be
employed?

I have work enough for you to do.
Publius, come hither. Caius and
Valentine, what is your will?
Know you these two?

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:09:43):
The empress sons. I, take them. Chiron and
Demetrius.

Now, fie, Publius, fie. Thou art too much deceived.
The one is Murder, and Rape
is the other's name. And therefore bind them, gentle
Publius, Caius and Valentine, lay hands
on them. O, have you heard
me wish for such an hour? And now I find it.
Therefore bind them sure, and stop their mouths if they

(01:10:08):
begin to cry.

>> Jamal (01:10:10):
Villains, forbear. We are the empress
sons, and therefore.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:10:14):
Do we what we are commanded.
Stop. Close their mouths.
Let them not speak a word. Is he sure?
Bound? Look that you bind him fast.

Come,

>> Jamal (01:10:27):
Sh.

Come, Lavinia.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:10:32):
Look.

Thy foes abound. Sure, stop
their mouths. Let them not
speak to me, but let them hear what
fearful words I utter.
Over limbs Chiron and Demetrius.
Here stands the spring whom you have stained with
mud this goodly summer with your

(01:10:56):
winter mixed. You killed her
husband, and for that vile fall two of
her brothers were condemned to death. My
hand cut off and made a merry
jest. Both her sweet hands, her
tongue in that more dear than hand or
tongue, spotless
chastity in inhuman traitors you have

(01:11:18):
constrained in force. What would you say
if I should let you speak? Villains, for
shame you could not beg for grace.
Hark, wretches, how I
meant them. Martyr you. This
one hand yet is left to cut your throats,
whilst that Lavinia tween her

(01:11:39):
stumps doth hold the basin that receives
your guilty blood. You know your mother needs
to feast with me, and calls herself Revenge
and thinks me mad. Hark, villains.
I will grind your bones to dust, and
with your bones end it. I'll make a paste,
and of the paste a coffin I will rear

(01:12:00):
and make two pasties of your
shameful heads and bid that
strumpet your unhallowed dam, like to the
earth swallow her own increase.
This is the feast I admit her to, and
this the banquet. She shall surf it on.

(01:12:20):
For worse than Philomel. You, you, my
daughter, and worse than Procne. I
will be revenged. And
now prepare your throats. Lavinia,
come, come, receive
the blood. And when that
they are dead, let me go. Grind their bones to

(01:12:40):
powder small, and with this hateful
liquor temper it. And in that pace let
their vile heads be baked.
Come, be everyone officious
to make this banquet, which I wish my
proof may prove more stern and bloody than the
Centaur's Feast. So

(01:13:01):
now bring them in, for I will play the cook and see
them ready against their mother comes.

>> Nick (01:13:09):
Beautiful.
Very different and very beautiful. It's so.
It's such a pleasure. I love multiple casts.
Like I really like. You know when you can see
a show with one cast and then go see it with another
cast? I. I always loved that, with
nts. Does that noise within. Does noise

(01:13:30):
within do that as well? Miranda or they keep the same cast
all the way through?

>> Miranda (01:13:33):
Yeah, they. They keep the same cast. I mean, we have
understudies, but, But yeah. No, no, no
flipping. I'm thinking about the, production at the National Theater a few
years ago in which, Benedict Cumberbatch and Johnny Lee
Miller were in Frankenstein.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

>> Miranda (01:13:47):
Really interesting, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah.
Alternated. Who was Victor and who was the creature.
Yeah.

But it's interesting. You can see who's a natural,
who's natural for one role and then the, the skills
of the actor, of the other actor doing the role
that, you know.

>> Miranda (01:14:04):
Yeah, yeah.

those production, the first 20 minutes of that production
without a word were incredible, I thought.

>> Miranda (01:14:11):
Yeah, Yeah.

>> Nick (01:14:12):
I saw the Philip Seymour Hoffman, John C. Reilly,
True west that they switched off.
That was quite a, Quite a sight to see. Off
subject, but, beautiful reading. Thank
you for jumping in and covering the director's
terrible acting. But, I was watching with the
director's eyes and missing my cue, so thank you.

(01:14:35):
You saving me. very
beautiful. I got a, I got a different sense of, of
Titus's control in that scene from you,
Tony, that I really enjoyed. I was cracking up.
it is quite funny in that,
that from art th out revenge all
the way through and is hilarious.

(01:14:55):
It, it really, it lands very well,
and we need to laugh. It's
so tense that I could do, you know, it
feels so great as an audience did. It's
invigorating to have the laughter.

It's so hard, you know, when you're reading,
you're just reading. I mean, there's so many things you can just see
like diamond going and putting
his stumped arm. It always has to be the stumped
arm with the blood, you know, right around,
around boy. Yes, right around the boy, actually.
Oh, you know, so I'll tell you what you do here. Come on, boys.

>> Nick (01:15:33):
And Angie, you had a great adjustment, too. So it was
wonderful that Tony pointed out that Titus comes up with
the name rape and murder, and then
she says, well, that their names are rape and
murder.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:15:46):
I actually do say it before.

>> Nick (01:15:49):
Do you say it before? Does she say it? Oh,
let me see.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:15:53):
Capitalized. But I say it.

>> Nick (01:15:56):
well, it was still a very funny reading.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:15:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I inspired myself, having done
that about the costume that she decides to play,
like the witches at the beginning. He
likes to play a character. And then,
it gets too difficult, so she has to sort of shed
that as she goes along. At least that's what happened this

(01:16:21):
time.

>> Jamal (01:16:22):
Time.

I don't know. Where does she say that? I. Where does she say it?

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:16:25):
An, she doesn't exactly ident
here.

>> Jamal (01:16:33):
63.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:16:36):
I, I, I'm having trouble
manipulating my Pages now.

>> Jamal (01:16:41):
Line 63T says rape and murder, therefore,
or 38.

>> Miranda (01:16:46):
Yes. Is that Is that what you're thinking? Where
there's not a hollow cave or lurking place, no vast obscurity or
misty veil, where bloody murder or detested
rape can couch for fear. But I will find them
out. So. So.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:16:59):
So I suggested in any.

Suggested.

>> Miranda (01:17:03):
You're speaking in general terms, but it.

>> Nick (01:17:04):
Does seem like Titus is the one that specifically named.

>> Miranda (01:17:07):
Literalizes it. Yeah.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:17:09):
I mean, he. He. That may be.

Yeah, That's. Well, you know, it's very.
It's is. Yes, it's very clear that, you know,
he. I don't know. I'm trying to remember.
When Lavinia, like in the
Ovid sort of draws who has done
the sheet? Does she draw? Does she say just
Tamara? Did she say the sons of that? Does she write Chiron,
Demetrius? What did she write? Do you remember?

>> Miranda (01:17:34):
I think she writes Chiron and Demetrius. Yeah.

>> Jamal (01:17:37):
Yeah.

Yes.

>> Miranda (01:17:37):
Yeah.

So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because it's her. And then her,
Her, fiance or her husband, they run away and get
married. Right?

>> Miranda (01:17:48):
Yeah, they're married. That's Giannis. Yeah.

>> Nick (01:17:50):
And for our audience who hasn't seen the show, that's
an incredibly difficult scene to watch, where
Lavinia's hands have been removed and she writes
the names of her, Her
rapists, with her mouth. Is that
correct, Miranda?

>> Jamal (01:18:07):
She.

>> Miranda (01:18:08):
Yes, it's act four, scene one. the stage direction reads.
She takes the staff, or, you know,
the staff. she takes the staff in her mouth and guides it
with her stumps and writes. And what she writes
is stuprum, rape, Stupron,
Chiron, Demetrius. She's gone to the. You know,
she's leafed through the Ovid and found the story

(01:18:29):
of, Philomel and Procne. So they know
what has happened, and then she's able to name
them.

>> Nick (01:18:37):
It's amazing that Shakespeare
based a lot of this play off of that book, and
then he includes the book within
the play.

>> Miranda (01:18:47):
It's so post modern, isn't it? I mean,
it's just stunning. I went and looked it up again
in the Ovid, and it's really. It's really
quite. You know, it's quite horrific what. What happens.
And it takes place over. Over time. But, when,
Tereus, Procne's husband, who has. Who has
raped Philomel, her sister, and cut out her tongue,

(01:19:09):
you know, sits down, eats the pie into
which his son has been baked, and then calls for his
son, bring, Ites here. My son. And. And
Procne tells him what his happened. And
then Philomel rushes in. her flowing hair
is stained with butchery and blood. Against the father's
face, she flings the bleeding head of it,

(01:19:30):
of the sun. So it's really, really,
Ah, you know, Shakespeare didn't have far to look, you know, for
these. These violent images, cycles
of violence and so on. But, yeah, it's so. It's so
postmodern that. That he. That's the source and then
that. Then there's the book within the play.
Yeah, yeah.

>> Nick (01:19:50):
And I got a lot of sense of. Jamal, what you're
talking about when you're saying he says it.
You know, Titus gives so
much information about his sanity
throughout the scene. He tells us
exactly
where his madness lies.

>> Jamal (01:20:09):
And Shakespeare is good at that, at telling us what he wants us to know.

>> Nick (01:20:13):
Yeah, absolutely. And I really. I, enjoyed
that, both of these readings. I really enjoyed his aside to
the audience. it seems
we. We also needed that. We needed some
reassurance from Titus. I wonder if she. It seems
like Shakespeare almost got a sense of not going
too far, not upsetting the crowd.

(01:20:34):
And, you know, he. He keeps you. He
keeps you on your toes, but he can make you feel safe.
Safe and terrified, both at the same time. It's an
incredible feat.

>> Jamal (01:20:44):
Well, that's a. That's a thought. I think you're
right. I think you're right. But, like, go back to our point about how you leave
the play and what you gather from it, you
know, and what you take home with it is a matter of where you sit
with comfort with this type of conversation
and violence, you know, because I do think it's human to
create some guardrails around it. But, yeah, to your point, I see that,

(01:21:05):
too.

>> Miranda (01:21:06):
You know, there was a production. Oh, I'm sorry. There was a.
No, no, there was a production. I think it
just. I think it was since the pandemic at the Sam Wanamaker,
the indoor playhouse of Shakespeare's Globe, there was a production
of Titus, and apparently, you know, audience
members were fainting, you know,
when confronted by it, if you don't know what's coming.

(01:21:27):
But, yeah, very visceral.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:21:29):
This is like a Hulk conversation,
though, about why we
enjoy this kind of story, which
obviously, people did. It was done over and over.
It's like, why do children like grim
fairy tales?

>> Nick (01:21:44):
Yes.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:21:45):
It's because it's a reassurance somehow
or some of it. It's a reassurance that the
world we live in is not this awful.
What are the other. I mean, That's a whole conversation
about why do we like this kind of.

>> Nick (01:22:00):
Well, it's like, why.

Why did people.

>> Nick (01:22:02):
Why did people go watch gladiators kill each
other? You know, why did. Why did they still watch
ufc, you know, or cage fighting or.
You know, it. It's interesting. It's,
you know, modern movie. Yeah, I.
You know, if I watch, like, I watched some of the times
those survival shows where people have to live out in
the woods for a month and freeze and they have no food,

(01:22:25):
and when I watch that, it makes me feel really warm and
cozy in my house with my hot tea
and, you know.

>> Jamal (01:22:32):
So I think it's in this play,
what we're asking, I think, is the question. And
I think, like, it's beautifully in the poetry. Witness.
Witness. Witness. Witness. Witness.
Look at you. Look at humanity.
Which is why I think psychologically, this is something that we
do to protect ourselves from the truth of.

>> Nick (01:22:51):
Of us.

>> Jamal (01:22:52):
And like psychology says this.
Spirituality says this, Our world is this.
Shakespeare was always writing about our world as is and
mirroring us. And then he would go to fantasy. This is what
authors and writers and poets and artists do. We create some
distance, not for us to protect ourselves, but for us to
see ourselves. Because we feel, oh, that's not me right
now, but when we meet, that we can see ourselves

(01:23:15):
and have resources through history to look at what has
been written again and ask the question
again, which is why I say it depends on where you are
sitting, with the comfort with what our world is today and what's being
mirrored back to you. Because
the question that was asked at the beginning of this play,
again, is the question that has been asked in

(01:23:35):
this world today. And I think it's interesting that we think
there's distance here. I believe you, but
I do not see safety here.
I see our world on this day. I
don't know what the date is in 2025.
And us as a world doing what psychology says
is creating distance because it might be

(01:23:55):
all gone in a moment. And
that's also human. Nothing wrong with it. It's human,
but we don't catch our reflections. Only a few do
at a time. But more do each time. But only a few at
a time. But more do each time. But again, no one's
protected here. The play just literally
killed everybody, including the most vulnerable.

(01:24:15):
Put a woman on display. She finds her voice when
the world takes their voice still. And so
I get passionate about. I think.
I think it's funny that we miss.

That, you know, and
to get more particular A
mother tells her sons to take her voice.
A mother lets these hellhounds loose. It's not
just all male. But I have to say the thing that
you know, which is very interesting, you know, less. You
know, we draw a line. You know what I mean? But

(01:24:47):
there's something very interesting that I thought. Shakespeare doesn't allow
us to. Now, the scene that I've always loved in
this play, and what we're reading is a great scene, is
the scene where, it's three, two. Where, Marcus
swats something. He's just like the
rest.
And he says, what do you strike at with your knife?
He says, I've killed the fly. And he

(01:25:08):
goes nuts out on the murderer. Thou kills my
heart. How if that fly had a father.

>> Nick (01:25:17):
We lost your camera, sir.

>> Miranda (01:25:19):
Tony, your camera's off.

Oh, I'm sorry.

>> Nick (01:25:22):
Okay, you're making a really important point right
now, so I want to make sure we can see you because that's,
that is weird.

I have no idea. But in the
midst of all this chaos, in the midst of all this violence,
all of this brutality Jamal's talking about, and
all. And all of a sudden,
fly. You know, and I always think of it in the
world that we, you know, the
brutality that exists all over the world.

(01:25:49):
And, and, and, and we do what
we call squirrel. You know, in that epic, you know, in
that animated thing, when the dog sees, every
time he sees a squirrel, he goes like that. That's what I feel
like as a liberal society, we do. We go
squirrel, squirrel. And meanwhile, right in front of us,
dead center is the vastness of the

(01:26:09):
pain, the vastness of the task at hand. And squirrel.
Oh, he said that? Oh, she did that. Oh,
well, the monkey brain. Yeah, monkey
brain, exactly.

>> Miranda (01:26:19):
Yeah.

>> Nick (01:26:19):
And even, even the popularity of this
play itself, you know, the fact that this is
such a violent play and it was one of his most
popular plays. Yeah, it's worth
looking into that.

>> Miranda (01:26:35):
The other play I keep thinking about is about 15 months
ago, a noise within performed Sweeney,
Todd. So I was the dramaturg for that. And here we are again,
you know, endless cycles of vengeance. And
Sweeney kills, you know, what he loves most. He cannot
see who that, who that character actually is,
you know, and, and everybody's being baked into
pies again. but, but the final, you know, the final

(01:26:57):
song there, you know, isn't that Sweeney there beside you?
You know, and we're all implicated, you know, we're all
implicated in these cycles.

>> Jamal (01:27:05):
We watch them and Shakespeare does this wonderful
thing too, which our world does as well, which is putting a
mirror on when you are made vulnerable.
And Lavinia has everything taken from her
and she is still the one that finds her voice.
And like, that's also what I feel in these rooms, a lot of time
when we're having the conversation and what's being said with the

(01:27:25):
nail on the head without dancing around, it is
usually the ones who are most vulnerable in this world
in the room. And Shakespeare did this because it was
the maids, it was the servants speaking truth
to the kings. And it still happens in
these artistic rooms. I said it last time we asked these questions.
Questions when we know what the truth is and

(01:27:46):
what's possible. And I don't know why we are still
doing that when the mirror is very clear and it's a
matter of consciousness. These things have been written
always. And we keep saying back then.
And just like back then, why did everybody watch it and why
does everybody love it? Because again, as a collective,
we hadn't gotten there yet. Now we need to

(01:28:06):
stop asking the questions where we know the answers. This is
humanity and we can change it in a moment.
Once we realize what we do to the most vulnerable in the room
and what we do to silence people. And then we can't have our
way. How we like blood and money
to get our way. It's not a far fetched idea. It
is just is when you open your eyes and take a

(01:28:26):
breath to see what's directly in front of you.
More got it now. But we have to start
really looking at the language and still asking
questions, but also not missing the mirror that is
anxious. There is nothing
new under the sun. And Shakespeare again says
it through a, perceived, maybe possibly madman.
Witness, witness, witness,

(01:28:49):
witness, witness these bloody lines.
Society we wrote, we create, it trickles
down to the least of us from the top. And Shakespeare
has it weaved in through everything, just like all
great poets. And anybody who put a pen to a pad or
paint to a canvas, does they speak
truths in between the line? It's in the space in between
that we see ourselves. But we like to

(01:29:11):
dance, which is why they dance and play. And we don't
know who's crazy and who's saying, yeah,
welcome to humanity on the world that has existed
since we got in here. But if we can say it in the room, like I
said last week, that means that, oh, we can get closer to it
because we are saying it. And I'm
just an actor.

>> Nick (01:29:30):
That's why it's a good time to produce this play.
Yeah, I would love to
see this.

Bingo. Bingo. Play.
Bingo.

>> Nick (01:29:40):
No.

Yeah. Well, if you want. You know about Shakespeare's
times. Edward Bond.

>> Miranda (01:29:45):
Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say. Remind me. Yes, I
remember.

It's an Edward Bond play. And it's certainly not
done at Shakespeare festivals,
because it looks at Shakespeare late in his life and,
he's wondering what the hell, you know, art is supposed to
be humanizing art. Everyone tells me I'm a great artist. Everyone
tells me. But when I walk to my theater,
I hear the sounds of bears being baited in the pits. I

(01:30:11):
see heads on the spikes. And,
it's just a very. Unfortunately, there's a
second it's surrounded by, like, a land.
Shakespeare was a landlord, that
he. He invested in land in Stratford.
And there was a squatters, there were a lot of
squatters that were going from place to place. So consequently.

(01:30:32):
And he's estranged from his family. So it's.
The squatters thing is very, very difficult. But
the stuff about him in the theater is
really. It's a. It's an anti romantic look
at what Elizabethan theater was by a
playwright who, you know, it's, you
know, pretty intense. Yeah.

>> Miranda (01:30:51):
Oh, I gotta read something successful. Yeah. No, it's.
Thank you for reminding me of, of that one
Tony. Ah.

If you get anyone to produce it, I'd love to audition for it.

>> Nick (01:31:00):
Yeah.

If you get anyone to produce it.

>> Nick (01:31:03):
Yeah.

>> Miranda (01:31:05):
Yeah.

>> Jamal (01:31:07):
I'm grateful for this conversation. I really am. Because I think that
is in these rooms where we're looking at these things, we have that space,
spaciousness that we have the opportunity to. And I get
passionate about these because we also know through history that it's in
these times where the mirror becomes more vibrant.
And it is art that does. Guides us through times
like this. So, Mark, I always say, Mark,

(01:31:27):
history. Because it's important that we're talking about
what we're talking about. Because art. Art,
Definitely art.

>> Anne Gee Byrd (01:31:34):
Yeah.

>> Miranda (01:31:35):
Which is so, so important and is
so. It's so the opposite. Opposite of
frivolous, especially right now, you know, and the first
thing autocracies do is. Is
stamp. Stamp out the arts. And, you know, look
who's chairman of the board of the Kennedy center now. And that
was not an accident or pure ego.

(01:31:56):
It was those things too. It was ego, but it was
very, very strategic.

>> Nick (01:32:00):
Yep.

>> Jamal (01:32:02):
So let's not miss what's happening and where we actually are
today. Actually a long time ago. But I'm glad we
are realizing today, then.

>> Miranda (01:32:10):
And then and now. And it's, you know, it's such a good point.
Just the fact that this play was reproduced in. In
all these quartos, you know, and then. And not
really change substantially between the quartos and the
Folio. You know, it was a. It was a. Was,
you know, an ongoing bestseller for
Shakespeare. You know,
Nick and you. You perhaps,

(01:32:32):
and Jamal definitely maybe too. Too young to
remember this, but I have hopes that Angie and Tony will
remember. Do you remember that movie rollerball from the 1970s with
James. Remember that? James Caan.
Remember that one?

>> Jamal (01:32:45):
Yeah.

>> Miranda (01:32:45):
So. So there's no more war, you know, everywhere what there is
is this incredibly violent
spectator sport and that just starts to
spiral out of control. Yeah, yeah,
I find myself thinking about that one too.

>> Nick (01:32:59):
Yeah, that's one of the, you know, the. One of the reasons why I thought it
might be an interesting time to explain. Explored this scene is because I
was literally thumbing through the TV and I saw
cage fighting and I was like, it's amazing to me that we
still watch this. You know, it's. And it's. Oh yeah, so
popular and huge. Big
billion dollar business. And it's

(01:33:20):
just like, you know, a mild version of the
Gladiator. You know, fights,
bread and circuses.

>> Miranda (01:33:27):
Yeah, circuses, yeah.

>> Nick (01:33:30):
And I thought. And you know, this is. And then I was watching
that, an interview with Julie Taymor, and she was discussing
about how Shakespeare has packed many different
types of violence into this show, you
know, from just so many different
types. And it's worth an
exploration of what is
society's fascination with that, that Jamal was so

(01:33:51):
eloquently talking about earlier then.

>> Miranda (01:33:54):
yeah, well, and it's all there in
this play too. I mean, there's this,
horrible violation of Lavinia,
and then there's Aaron. You know, there's racism, there's
misogyny. It's all just right there. Then
as now, you know, as
we've been exploring,

>> Nick (01:34:16):
Baby survives in. In the end of this play,
am I correct?

>> Miranda (01:34:20):
He. He. He does. And. And you know, Julie
Taymor makes a lot of that. Of course, she has a lot of young
Lucius, as we were saying, walking off with him.
But yes, because, Because Aaron makes. Makes
Lucius swear to. To, To.
To save his son and, you know, establish
him somewhere to be brought up in safety. Or he's not,

(01:34:40):
he says, or I'm. I'm not going to tell you anything, you know,
And Lucius. Lucius swears, But yes,
the baby survives.

>> Jamal (01:34:48):
Beautiful messages and everything.

>> Miranda (01:34:51):
Yeah, yeah. And Aaron. I think
Aaron's villainy is, you know, complicated by
his paternity. You know, he loves this child. He's fiercely
protective of this child. And the way he confronts the
nurse. And now we're getting off scene here, but, you know, when
he confronts the nurse saying, you know, his black. So basic.

>> Jamal (01:35:08):
You.

>> Miranda (01:35:08):
What's wrong with you? Why are you saying that? You know, I mean,
that's. That too is very,
you know, contemporary and, you know, and I
don't. I mean, I've had these conversations a lot about
Othello and Merchant of Venice and these other plays that
some, I know, some of my colleagues don't think we should still be
performing, and I don't think that I think we should perform

(01:35:29):
them and use them as vehicles to have brave conversations
about difficult topics, as we're all doing here.
but, but I don't mean to be simple minded and say, hello,
Shakespeare's universal, you know, and he means the same thing to,
to everybody, you know,
that's not.

That's a disservice to, you know, I sort of, ah. I sort of
agree with you. And, I, I directed a
production of Merchant of Venice at, Cal Shakes
and, and
during the 80s. @ Cal Shakes during the 80s.
And, And, you know, it's a
hot cake even in the 80s, you know.

>> Miranda (01:36:05):
Oh, yeah.

And so consequently, I, the first thing I did is I,
I called a friend and she put me in touch with a rabbi, and I
had lunch with a rabbi
and and said, well, you know, what do you think? You know, just.
And he. It was very, very interesting. He says, what we should
forget. We shouldn't do these
plays, so we'll forget it never

(01:36:27):
happened. And it was very, very interesting because
I think it would be impossible
to do that play in this day and age, at least
so far, without
understanding the situation. And it was
interesting because, Excuse me. And then I'll stop. I got to play at
Utah. I got to play Shylock at, ah, Utah. I had been,

(01:36:48):
I was told that this one actor
played in the 70s and there was applause at the conversion.
That did not happen in
2010. That did not happen.

>> Miranda (01:37:01):
That,

So people do change and people, you.

>> Miranda (01:37:04):
Know, it's an anti Semitic play. You know, I've
written, I've written on this. I, you know, this was years ago. We used to
Live in Washington D.C. and the Shakespeare Theater has a big annual
fundraiser where they, you know, will argue some
case about involving Shakespeare's characters and
they'll get a supreme Court justice to preside. So
1999, right before we moved out here, actually, it

(01:37:25):
was, you know, resolved that Merchant of Venice is an anti Semitic
play, which, you know, I was the witness for
that argument. And it was, It was Ruth Bader Ginsburg
who was. Who was the justice. And
we ended up with a hung jury, you know,
five, seven, which I really took as a victory because, of course,
everyone came in their circumstances saying, oh, he's Shakespeare, you know, he's
woke enough for the. You know, we didn't use this word in 1999,

(01:37:47):
but basically, this is what. This comes down to, the sort of
defensiveness that Shakespeare has to be woke
enough for the 21st century, which is ridiculous. You know,
it's an anti Semitic play. You know, that's not all it is,
but it is an anti Semitic play. And we have
colleagues and people who just twist themselves into
contortions trying to demonstrate. Trying to argue

(01:38:08):
that not only is it not angst Semitic, it's actually
secretly pro Jewish. You know, Othello is a
racist play. Right? Othello is a racist play. That's not
all it is, but it's, you know, it. That's
there, too. And some of you've heard me talk about
my. Just my shock when I taught them to play again back in the
90s at Howard University, when I was. When I was in the English
Department there. And. And, my students taught me more

(01:38:30):
about Othello than I taught them, I sometimes think so,
sure. You know, but. But we just have to be open to
these things. But.

>> Nick (01:38:37):
Yeah.

>> Miranda (01:38:37):
you notice how Shakespeare plays, sort of. Certain plays
are everywhere. Some years, a couple of years ago, everybody was
doing Much Ado About Nothing on both sides of the pond.
Why is that? But nobody's been touching Merchant
Events. I haven't seen Merchant or seen or
heard of a production of Merchant in a
long time, especially not now.

Yeah. It's interesting because if
it's funny, I guess when I did it,
both as a director and an actor, is
there's justification for.
For Sherlock. And if nothing else,
he uses the stereotype.

>> Miranda (01:39:21):
Yeah.

To his benefit. But the thing that amazes
me, and you see it, you see it in Aaron, and you see
it. It's just when you think, you know, the character, I imagine
it's sort of like a ball. And just when you think,
all of a sudden an arm pops out and another
arm pops out and. And all of a sudden there's a human being
there, a full human being there.
And, you know, it's yeah, it's. It's quite.

(01:39:45):
Quite powerful.
So. Yeah, but some
people just can't, It's funny with Othello for me, and again,
I've sort of been involved. That's why I find the problem with
Othello now to me is
no longer. It is racist. That's the point. He uses,
that in a kind of way.

>> Miranda (01:40:05):
exactly.

But yes, it's an examination of. But where
I think the problem is is that as soon as he slaps,
there's the Mona. We step
into a wife beating other kind of thing
and we lose track of his journey because of
that, in spite of the fact that he's pushed to it, but
he's brought to it by. By. By
Iago. We. I feel we. We've lost

(01:40:28):
the power of Othello.

>> Miranda (01:40:30):
Yeah.

Which was quite popular. I mean, all, yeah.
Ah, you know, all. All the great actors wanted to play
Othello. They did not play Iago, you know.

>> Miranda (01:40:39):
Right, right.

So it's interesting.

>> Jamal (01:40:41):
I understudy Blair Underwood and Othello
Global when I was in grad school and.

>> Miranda (01:40:46):
No way.

>> Jamal (01:40:47):
Yeah. It was a great opportunity and study.

>> Miranda (01:40:49):
Right.

>> Jamal (01:40:50):
It was amazing. Just so y' all know.

>> Nick (01:40:52):
It was great.

>> Jamal (01:40:52):
And, I was wonderful to work on the piece and to experience it for the
first time when I was still training in grad school. And
it was interesting to hear all the conversations, to your point, Tony, of everybody
being mad at off that.

How could he? How could he?

>> Jamal (01:41:04):
Why would he. And like, did y' all not watch the
whole hepan play and see his
humanity taken from him? And how could he. Even if you take race
out of it, like men spent more time with men, they
were away. They get close, they get intimate.
That's who they talk to. Things happen historically in separate
rooms in this. And it just. Again, people coming to see a show

(01:41:25):
doesn't know the history, but to see the
collective question. This black man,
after seeing him be a human and be tossed around by
the world, it was real interesting. As the only person of any
color in my graduate class. I was the only person of any
color in my graduate class to walk out and
hear those questions every night. And I was like,

(01:41:45):
this is a real interesting world.

And one other thing about Othello, I play Diego twice,
right. And we'd get the question,
why? What does he do? You know, what does he do? Why does he.
Motiveless up. Yeah, you know, what is
it? malignancy? What is it?

>> Miranda (01:42:05):
Motiveless malignity?

Well, good luck playing that. Well,
I don't know. I've lived in the world a number of years and,
And if we look again, if we look at our society and
how people respond in this day and
age to, I mean, if we look at
workplace violence,
you know. Oh, you fired me.

>> Nick (01:42:27):
Oh, good.

I'll back. Come. Come back and shoot everyone, you know.
You know, that some. That would. That used to leave my
mouth. I thinking, boy, you're not. You haven't read the
paper in a while, have you?

>> Miranda (01:42:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there's a. There's
a wonderful. There was a wonderful series of videos done, short
videos by the British national council in 2016
to commemorate, as we don't say, to commemorate
the anniversary of Shakespeare's death, to commemorate the beginning of his
posthumous life, his post misreprutation.
But. But I'll. I'll send you all, the link.
There's a couple of them are. I mean, they're all marvelous, but,

(01:43:01):
the one to Othello is particularly great. And the one to.
To, The one about the Tempest is particularly great.
Titus didn't make the cut, no pun intended, for some
reason. But. Sorry,
everybody, but I'll send those along. And
they're. They're very. Just a different way of thinking about these
plays 400 years later.

>> Nick (01:43:21):
Well, we've got eight minutes left. Should we just read
it one more time after this beautiful discussion and
see where we land at the end and let throw a
little pacing in on it?

I feel like. I feel like.

>> Nick (01:43:32):
Oh, no, we don't
have to. We can save it for next time.
Absolutely, man. We've done a
lot of thinking on.

>> Jamal (01:43:41):
This is the marination period we just talked about. So we
gotta let it marry and come back.

>> Nick (01:43:47):
Yeah, I am. I completely understand that.
Absolutely.

Titus, barbecue. What do you say?

>> Nick (01:43:56):
Little people pies?

Yeah, I'm thinking. I'm thinking I might go with that.
You know, I need, I need a. I need some secondary
income.

>> Miranda (01:44:04):
Oh, God, I'm. I'm glad you all enjoyed
that really awful,
silly graphic I sent you of Aria
serving best served cold. And I
know Nathan loved fire. Fireplaceable, you know, you
can heat it up.

>> Nick (01:44:24):
Well next time.
Nathan. There he is. Well, congratulations, everybody. It
was really, really a worthy discussion today. And
beautiful. And we'll look at a little bit more the performance
element next week. Maybe some pacing, some.
You know, and continue on the process of the direction

(01:44:45):
that we're going in now. It's lovely to watch.
Nathan. Hi.

Hey, everybody.

>> Nathan Agin (01:44:50):
Yeah, this. This is great. And, yes, to, tie it
back to the comment at the beginning. We'll talk offline, trying to make,
find a date that everybody can, be there, be present
for, for the, you know, the final session. We'll see if we can
make that work, work, and not kick it into 20, 26
or anything. but, yeah,
no, this was another really, fun evening, of

(01:45:11):
discussion, not only just the last
20, minutes or so. And even
as an observer, as a person interested in theater, interested
in Shakespeare, even when we navigate
away from the scene per se, there's still a lot of relevant conversation
and, and there's just a lot of interesting stuff that, you guys brought
up that, I just enjoyed.

(01:45:32):
And I also love those moments where
you're still, each of you are finding things in the text
going, wait a second, I just noticed, or it just landed on my
ear this way. that's always fun because
as an observer, I'm not diving into this as deeply as
each of you are. So you're pulling out more and more
things that I get to enjoy as an audience member and

(01:45:55):
appreciate about this scene. So it's fun to
be along for the ride that, you know,
it's just a great reminder that,
you know, no one comes in the first session going, okay,
I've, I've uncovered all the clues. I have everything mapped
out. I know all the references. you know,
and it kind of struck me,
you know, I'm sure we could debate this a little bit, but this

(01:46:17):
scene really does seem so up to
interpretation in terms of where each of the
characters are throughout the scene. More so
than, you know, if we pick a scene from Much Ado or Winter's Tale,
like, things seem a little bit more straightforward in terms
of, you know, where, you know, we could probably
argue where is Iago in any moment of the scene. But,

(01:46:39):
yeah, it's just fun that there's so much
up to for debate and you know,
while recognizing, Jamal, your point that like, you feel like,
you know, the text is very clear in terms of what, what people are saying,
but there is a lot of, openness of like, the staging
and, and where, you know, what, what, what are people hearing
or not hearing and what are they playing at and you know, all that

(01:46:59):
stuff, it's, it's great. So I, I, the,
it's a long winded way of me saying I'm really
enjoying it. I'm really enjoying all the discussion, and,
so value and enjoy and appreciate
all of your participation in this. So thank you guys so much for,
ah, another great, great evening. So thank you again.

>> Miranda (01:47:17):
Thank you. Thanks, everyone.

>> Nick (01:47:19):
Thank you all so much.

>> Nathan Agin (01:47:21):
See you all next time.

>> Nick (01:47:22):
Can't wait to see you next week. take care, everybody.

>> Miranda (01:47:25):
Thanks, everyone.

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Titus Andronicus (5.2), Week 3: "Embracing the Grotesque" - The Rehearsal Room

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Titus Andronicus (5.2), Week 3: "Embracing the Grotesque" - The Rehearsal Room