July 15, 2020 • 47 mins
Dr. Lexx and I chatted about where these messages about partnership come from, what she considers the real work of partnership to be, 4 warning signs you want to be on the lookout for in your relationship, and she shares what vulnerability looks like in a partnership.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What was that show, Cindy? Do you remember? It was
a show on own? Recently? Uh? Eve a show about
did you see it? I know you said you don't
watch too much TV. Dr Lex, Well, no, I got
hating kids, but I don't get to watch make up.
(00:28):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:49):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope
you love listening to and learning from the podcast, asked,
it is not meant to be a substitute for a
relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks
(01:15):
so much for joining me for session one sixty four
of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. I often hear
comments about how laborious being in relationships is, and while
of course I recognize that we're coming into relationships with
all of our stuff, and so are our partners, but
I'm often curious about where we give this message is
(01:35):
from and how it has become so ingrained in many
of our minds, So of course I had to bring
in one of my incredible colleagues to chat about it. Today,
we're joined by Dr Lex Brown James. Dr Lex is
an Amazon best selling author of These Are My Eyes,
This is My Nose, This is My Volva, These are
(01:57):
My toes. And It's a licensed marriage and the therapist
and a sex certified sexuality educator and supervisor. As CEO
of the Institute for Intimacy and Sexuality, Dr Lex helps
couples connect as the couple's clinician. When not in therapy,
she contracts with organizations regarding reproductive justice and accessible comprehensive,
(02:21):
intersectional and anti oppressive sexuality education. Dr Lex and I
chatted about where these messages about partnership come from, what
she considers the real work of partnership to be for
warning signs you want to be on the lookout for
in your relationship, and she shares what vulnerability looks like
(02:42):
in a partnership. If you notice something that resonates with
you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on
social media using the hashtag TBG. In session here's our conversation.
But thank you so much for joining us again. Dr Legs,
thank you so much for having me. I love being here.
(03:04):
Always a pleasure, always a pleasure to chat with you.
So I thought that today we could talk a little
bit about just this idea that relationships and long term
partnerships has to be a lot of work. So this
is something that we have kind of heard a lot
about recently. But it also feels like historically I often
(03:24):
hear people talk about like, oh my goodness, marriage and
partnership is just so hard, and so I just want
to hear your thoughts about, like why we kind of
hear that so often. One of my favorite Facebook means
going around has been I don't want my grandmama's marriage right.
And I've been doing couples therapy for for ten years
(03:47):
now and sex therapy along with that, and oftentimes I
always ask couples who are your models? Who are your
models for positive romantic relationships? And I get most folks
saying like, I didn't really have a model, or they
have like one aunt or maybe a grandparent, but not
a lot of people had models, and we forget that
(04:09):
relationships way back in the day, even though they were
built somewhat the same. Some were monogamous, some had rolling stones,
some were practicing consensual nonmonogamy and just didn't have the
words for it, and they all existed. However, there's just
this lack of understanding with one another, and I think
(04:32):
that's where it gets passed down, where it's women specifically
are told you've got to make sure you have your
own you don't need to be dependent financially, emotionally, whatever,
stability wise on a man. And then all of the
other like political things to happen where men are feeling gutted,
men are feeling like they don't get ownership, men are
(04:53):
feeling like they don't have roles in relationship or they're
not necessarily able to understand how they've been victims of
patriarchy too and haven't had access to their own emotions
for relationships to flourish. So it gets a bad rap.
It gets oh, you gotta do hard work when you
get in a relationship, and that's not true. I mean,
(05:15):
now there is some work to do, right, I mean,
because we're human, But it often sounds like this painstaking,
like why would anybody ever want to sign up for this? Yes,
I agree. I think there is some work to do,
but I don't think that work is always relationship work, right,
So I tell people my job as a therapist is
(05:37):
to take care of the relationship between you two, right,
And I don't think people come to relationships fifty to fifty.
I think you need to come to a relationship a
hunted and a hunting and maybe you like that day
and that's okay. You need to know that, like, hey, babe,
I'm not a hunt it because I'm just like you know,
this is what's going on for me and baby is
(05:58):
gonna be like I bet so what you need for
me to do to support you into a hungry m hmm, right,
And that's how relationships play out. That's where the work is.
It's that coming together. Most people think that they're gonna
solve and be marriage by wrong conflict in the marriage,
and that's not true because there's always gonna be something conflictual. Right,
(06:21):
Something's gonna pop up, whether it's a level one or
a level ten of disaster, something's gonna pop up and
it's going to be conflictual. But that's not what sues
and and helps marriages thrive. It just helps you resolve
conflict a little bit faster. So I'm curious, actor Lex
when you say your job as the couple's therapist is
to help take care of the relationship, and I would
(06:43):
imagine that a part of it is eventually helping the
couple to learn to take care of the relationship. I
want to know what does that look like, taking care
of the relationship as opposed to the two people in
the relationship or the however, many people right right there
for a knowledge in my polly, I'm fans um. Yeah,
So when I take care of our relationship, it's not
(07:05):
my job to like side on you're right, you're wrong,
You need to do this, you need to do that,
which is how people come to arguments, right, And we
have people who hear that little voice in their heads
and they should stop with the argument, but they go
past that little voice and keep on going. And then
we have people who are oftentimes trying to prove their points,
or they're trying to defend themselves from being criticized, or
(07:27):
we have people that just get so overwhelmed they shout
down right, and so they're like, um, nope, I'm good.
And then we have like belligerent folks who are saying,
if you don't get in the ring to fight with me,
and I'm gonna press every trigger that I know to
make sure you're get in the ring to fight with
me to show you that you care about me, then
you don't care. So if we don't have these knocked down,
(07:48):
word based fights, then you don't care because you can
just easily walk away. And these are the things we've
been trained to think through TV, through our own relationships,
and it's not in the really true right. These are
these are actually the horsemen of relationships, as it's stated
by Gottman, that predict the end of relationships. So taking
(08:09):
care of relationships saying, you all have an attachment injury here.
Your bond has literally been attacked by both of your behaviors.
How are you willing to change that in order to
support this bond between you two? Are we gonna be
able to put your pride aside? Right? Because do you
want to be right or do you want to be
(08:29):
in a relationship? M? Yeah, that question comes up often, right,
And then it's also, well, are you going to self
sacrifice for goodness? Because it doesn't seem like it's working.
Both of you are just very unhappy and then and
then oh the number one you probably get this too,
We just need to learn how to communicate better. Well, well,
(08:52):
I think that that is often what we hear, right,
I mean, and so I want to kind of maybe
use this statements to kind of go back to one
of your earlier statements around like what are our models?
Because I think if you don't necessarily have a lot
of models, we often get a lot of messages that
communication is the thing that is difficult in relationships. Yes, yes, oftentimes,
(09:12):
And I'm I often looked at my couple as I said,
what what about what he just said? Don't you understand?
M So it's not communication, so tell us where it
actually So it's actually a lack of one. Relationships that
lasts are built on friendships and liking. So it's I
like you as a person, I know your character, and
(09:36):
I'm being inmate with you and not necessarily always physical intimacy,
although that's nice to based on whatever your desires and
need an appathite are. It's really saying, hey, I'm taking
this risk, sharing this vulnerability with you, Like I'm a
little bit nervous to tell you I'm embarrassed by it.
I feel shame about it. I'm sad about it, whatever
(09:57):
it is. And I want to share this with you
because because you're not going to criticize me, you're not
gonna put me down right, So if I come in
and be like, man, I felt just like Mark was
coming at my neck today, and my lover goes, well, yeah,
it's probably because you run your mouth too much. Right,
I'm not gonna want to talk to you no more.
(10:18):
I'm not gonna want to have conversations. I'm not gonna
feel close with you. So when you try and come
for butt cuddles later, no wait for me. That hurt me.
But we're not taught and trained to say that hurt
or I felt embarrassed or this was really really hard
for me to stay because that's really nervous about your reaction.
We're not taught to say that at all. We're taught
(10:40):
to quote quote be strong, be stoic. And all that
does is you damaged our relationships because it's like, well,
they must have been all right and ain't saying that
about it, so they're cool. And then the last thing
is we reject repair attempts. So I might have been
hurt by what my lover said right, that critical piece
(11:00):
and him coming to me might have been his way
of preparing. I'm saying, like, I know I messed up earlier,
my bad. How about some buck couples right without saying
all of those words, And I'm like, no, I'm so
mad at you by turning away. So we're communicating, We're
using our bodies to communicate, We're sending each other messages.
(11:21):
It's just none of us are being honest in intimate
in our conversations, and our language is what we need.
M So how do you work through that, doctor lex
like the not rejecting the attempts to repair because I
think in the moment And then this maybe goes back
to the other question you had about like do you
want to be right or do you want to be
in relationship right? Because I think you know and I
(11:41):
am guilty of this myself, right, like if I feel
like I just want to hold on to like being mad,
like I don't really want to hear what you gotta
say right now? True? How do you how do you
move past that enough? And it has to almost happen
in the moment, right so that you don't reject the repair?
How do you kind of get out of your own
ways so that you are not kind of further damaging
(12:02):
the relationship. I actually have all my couples doing anger
iceberg right is something that I use in therapy a lot.
When I talk to people about anger, I say that
it is a response emotion. There's usually a primary emotion.
So anger is a fire. It is hot. It can
punish people that you're met at, it can burn them,
(12:24):
it gets people away from you. All fires need fuel, right,
and that fuel is typically the other emotions. So anger
is only the tip of the iceberg. It's only the
part that hangs out the water that you see up
under the water the rest of the iceberg or all
the other feelings. So dr joy. If I said your
(12:44):
mom was so fat when she jumped up in the sky,
she gets stuck and everybody laughs, you might show me anger.
But what if your mom really is a fat, bodied
person and you're embarrassed by it, or you're ashamed by it,
or you feel are really really sad. It's not safe
to show me those feelings, so you show me anger instead.
(13:07):
Mm hmm. Plantings somebody who hurt you can feel really good,
but it damages the relationship. Between you, So you gotta
get up underneath that anger, saying what are the feelings
that fuel the fire? And oftentimes it takes a little
bit for us to explore, and that means we've got
to recalibrate on our own. So whatever your self caring is, personally,
(13:30):
I like to beat up a bag of ice with
a meat mallet when I'm really upset. It is cheap
and it is a satisfying crutch in my bathtub, and
I get to destroy something that is not gonna cost
me an insurance claim to repair or to replace. But
it gets out my my woes and my angst and
it feels really good. And at the end of the day,
(13:51):
it's water and a dollar ninety nine. But I have
to recalibrate. Yeah, so you're saying that instead of saying,
like I don't want to be bothered right now, I
should be able to acknowledge, like, wow, I'm still really hurt.
So I might not necessarily want to reconnect right now,
but I am acknowledging that you're trying to repair exactly
like baby, what you're doing, like you love it, just
(14:13):
not right now. I'm not ready to engage this way
with you. I'm not like I need to do some
self care. I need to do some self work. And
it takes at least half an hour. People be like,
I'm gonna take ten minutes. I'm gonna go breathe, Like, no,
go ahead, extend that on out, Go ahead watching Netflix show,
take a really long shower, wash your hair, whatever, take
(14:34):
a couple of Take an hour at least, or maybe
half an hour, but take an hour at least to
be like, let me just calm down, let me do
some self reflection, and then I'll be more responsive to
hearing you, and vice versa. The other person needs to
get other feeling too, feeling rejected or feeling unwanted and
then wanting to punish their partner back to or wanting
(14:57):
to say like well you don't want me, and needing
to be more validated. And then you're away from the
original issue, right, which is, hey, I was really hurt
right today, right because now at this point, now we're
just kind of in a tip for tat battle about
like who's going to hold out the longest in terms
of reconnecting. Yeah, yeah, so you mentioned a little earlier,
(15:18):
and I want to go back to this because I
don't know that this is something we've talked about on
the podcast before, one of the horsemen in terms of
a relationship, and so I know that there are four.
So can you share with us the four horsemen when
we talk about relationships? Yes, So I like to remember
cdc s like the cd you know you're in Atlanta
(15:38):
the senor control right, right, And so I'm gonna skip
one of the seeds and come back to it. But
the first see is criticism, and criticism is not necessarily
criticizing a behavior like oh, baby, you always put the
diaper on the baby wrong. That's not what it means.
It means you're CHRISTI first since personhood, you are so lazy.
(16:04):
How come whenever I come home there is nothing ever done.
We've both been at work and you're always like this, right,
So you're criticizing the essence of a person and it
can really destroy them. The D is for defensiveness. So
defensiveness raises its head when you're perceiving an attack. And
(16:25):
I know defensiveness has a whole like trigger warning, and
so does trigger at this point, and so everybody gets
in their fields whenever these words are thrown around. Um.
But for defensiveness, this person really is saying, I think
you're gonna attack me. It often comes when this person
is with somebody who is critical and a criticizer, and
(16:47):
with that defensiveness, they say, I'm preparing myself for an attack.
You could even see a person start to um act
like a kid in a way. It's really interesting to
see that. They're just like, Wow, this whole adult just
came a whole child right in front of me, and
they're saying, why are you always attacking me? I didn't
do anything. I'm tired too, And their voice can modulate
(17:09):
and it can change. They oftentimes try and spend tables around.
I was like, uh no, no, not not super useful,
because then they can't engage and they don't really take
accountability of responsibility for their part. Not the whole responsibility pie,
just a piece of responsibility packed. I'm gonna skip the
second seat and come back to it. But the last
(17:31):
one is s and this is my personal favorite. I'm
really good at stonewalling. I am a stonewaller. I want
to watch an entire half of basketball while my lover
calls my whole government name because I was upset and
I was done right there there's a thing you might see,
(17:53):
Like black people say like this ain't what you want.
Right before they're like done, I was done, and when
I I'm done with something. Stone wallers are exactly what
it says. They turned to a stone wall. It's like
talking to a stone wall. They are not moved, they
are not engaging. They are shut down. You can be
tuned out. They are no longer giving you active listening cues.
(18:16):
My lover at the time, I think, danced in front
of my face for a minute to try and get
my attention. And I swear I looked through him like
his mama drank windex. I could see straight through him.
I had no issues whatsoever, because I was flooded emotionally.
My anxiety peaked. I was angry, I was hurt. There
were no words to convey that, and I was just done.
(18:39):
And those people typically are the ones who specifically that
at least thirty minutes to calm down, to come back
to themselves, to defrag if you will. And then the
last one is contempt. So contempt is the worst of
all of these. Um. Contempt is criticism plus moral superiority.
(19:05):
So it's I'm gonna criticize you and pick you a
part of your personhood and remind you that I'm better
than you m You're lucky to have me. Who would
want somebody so lazy? I did all of this today,
and you only did that typical huh, you're really gonna
wear that? I don't know. Your body isn't what it
(19:27):
used to be, like I can still fit my jeans,
blah blah blah blah blah. And it's dangerous. All of
these are dangerous, but contempt is the hardest one to
come back from. And for every one instance of any
of these criticism, contempt, stonewalling, defensiveness, you need at least
(19:48):
five moments of intimacy to counteract it. That's how toxic
they are. Five It's a five one ratio. And if
that ratio starts to get off, it is a predictability
of divorce and ending a relationship. Mm hmmm. So this is,
of course, all of the work that the Gotmans have
done in their love lad of examining all of these
behaviors in couples. Exactly, exactly, Yeah, And so why do
(20:15):
you think contempt is the most dangerous one? I think
because it puts people out of automatic one down, one up.
And when we say that in in family systems speak,
we mean that it means one person is prioritize and
seemingly more important than another person, and it means you're
(20:37):
no longer on the equal footing. Remember if I said,
if you have a controlationship behind a hunting m hmm,
you're not on equal footing and that one up one
down space. So it can feel like one person is
trying to make themselves better in order to be worthy,
got it? Okay? Okay? So speaking of this coming to
(20:57):
a relationship one one hundred, I think that there is
some confusion about how to do that when we know
that we are all works in progress, right, Like none
of us is completely together all the time, And so
what does this mean to like come to a relationship
one hundred one hundred? Like, how can you do that
if there are still some things you know in your
(21:18):
personal history that you're working through, Like what does that
even look like? Right? So this is when one of
my big favorite therapy words come into play, differentiation, differentiation
and differentiation if you want to go look it up,
is a Bowen bo w eaton theory piece of it
that says that you are able to separate your thoughts
(21:41):
and your feelings, and you're able to separate your thoughts
and your feelings from your family of origin and from
your lover or lovers. Right, So these are my thoughts,
these are my feelings. How does that family usually think
about this? Can I not think the same as my
fai Emily and that be okay? Or is that going
(22:02):
to make me really anxious uncomfortable? And I'm just gonna
go with the flow. Same with my lover. Can we
have different thoughts or different views and that be okay?
It's not a super huge conflict depending on what's going on,
and we can still come together and talk about it
and share. So it's really go ahead, now, you go ahead? No,
(22:25):
I was gonna say so. The one one hundred dozen
really focus on whether you still have work to do
on yourself. It really is more about, like, can you
show up in this relationship and claim ownership of your
own thoughts and feelings and know the difference exactly? Because
what we see and we see couples they get really
really close and comfy. The word is fused where they
(22:45):
start to think like one person, right, or they start
to exist as one person when they're they're two separate entities.
So if um dr. Joy, if your lover was really
really mad at I don't know a coworker, it is
not your job to call that coworker and be like,
why I heard you had did this to my lover
and me you got beat now, Like, that's not that's
(23:08):
not your physician, it's not your role, all right. You
trust your lover to handle his disputes and how they're
comfortable or uncomfortable. But you say, hey, babe, I can
support you, I can get ear to listen. I can
help you problem solved if you like. And you might
be upset that they're upset, but you're not going to
step outside of that to go take care of the
(23:29):
issue for them because those aren't your feelings. Those are
your lovers feelings. So you don't have enough of that.
So what kind of like complications might we cause in
our relationship if we're not differentiated enough. So when you're
not differentiated, sometimes it can look like you can isolate
(23:49):
from others, one which is ostracizing. You still need your
own independent likes, hobbies, time to yourself, and then too,
when there are those things that you don't agree on,
it can start to feel intimidating and threatening to the
actual moment you have. What do you mean we both
(24:11):
don't think that this is the way that you're supposed
to make Ravioli. Huh, Well, what else do you not
agree with me on? And so it makes it harder
to start to have these conversations of intricacies and nuances
and differences when those are what make us quirky and
what makes us separate and priceless in the world. Right,
(24:35):
it's our uniqueness, And so you can lose some of
that and then also lose some of the trust. Well,
my lover won't like me if they know that this
is something that I want to do or this is
something I find interesting. And for some people that's true.
There are hard limits for all folks. Some people are
just like, Nope, that's not my thing. I don't want
to be with a lover who thinks this way. I'm good.
(24:56):
But that risk of silencing yourself also starts to create
this and so you don't get to get as close
to your lever and maintain a romantic and carrying bond,
and you have the opportunity in space to to break
that bond or to cause an attachment injury. Like I said,
so step out of that relationship because you might have
(25:16):
that need met somewhere else. It can become really risk
m hm. And is this the same place where we
would see some of this ride or die thinking come
into play a doctor lex Yes. Yes, Um, I don't
know where that mentality came from, like I don't even
know where we're going, and what's gonna happen. Who's gonna
be there before before we ride or dying? Um? No,
(25:40):
thank you, But yes, it's it's where we see either
you down from me or you not. It's really all
or nothing level of either you show up for me
with no questions asked, or you're not really for me.
And that's not necessarily true, right because we're whole rounded people.
It's not just split decisions. It's context of I want
(26:00):
to make sure you're safe. I want to make sure
i'm safe too, and I have I stand on my
own two feet here. I will support you, but it's
not my job to take this over and fix it
for you, and that can lead to a lot of resentment.
That can lead to a lot of resentment of I'm
taking care of everybody in this relationship and I'm tired
on either party. Yeah yeah, So Dr Lex, how do
(26:24):
you call out differentiation to a couple, because I would
imagine that for some people this happens unconsciously and they
don't even know that it's happening in their relationship. You
are so right. I am experiential in the therapy room.
I like for my couples within reason to get up
and move their bodies. So I have them do David
(26:45):
Snarches differentiation stance, and the way they do this is
really fun. So they make their palms kiss, so it's
like a high five that has to stay there. And
they do this in both hands, and they stand on
their own two feet, and then I have them step
backwards while maintaining the palm to palm contact, and so
(27:05):
I get them to a point where they're really leaning
in on each other. So it's really an upside down
b and we talk about what's comfortable for them, and
what we'll find is is that some couples really really
like that leaning in on each other. It feels good.
It's I know my lover is they're they're pressing back
on me. It feels really comfortable. I know if I
(27:28):
take them away, then I'll fall, and they'll fall. So
we have to be in this together. And when an actuality,
that's what codependency looks like, right, It's it's where you're
depending on a person for holding you up and lifting
you up instead of standing on your own feet. Differentiation
(27:48):
looks like standing on your own two feet and offering
your hand to your lover and your partner. It's just
scarier because a person standing up on their own two
feet who is saying, let my palms meet your palms,
you can easily take their palms away and walk away.
And that gets really scary for folks because they can
(28:10):
choose somewhat easily to not be a part of that
relationship anymore. And so when I used this, usually around
sessions three and four, most of my couples don't come
more than like fifteen sessions. So later on, let's say
sessions like eight through ten, when we're in a real
sweet spot and meat of work, and my couples will
(28:32):
come back and be like, oh, I was leaning in
right there. Okay, yep, I see it, So I need
to stand back up, and I'm like, yes, now, how
do we get you there? And so they start to
recognize when you're losing that differentiation for one another. Wow,
So there is so much picked into that one exercise. Yes,
(28:53):
this was one of my favorite. I've never heard of
this one. See. This is why I love having such
a life variety of people, because I don't do a
couple of work. Right, so I've never heard of this exercise. Um, so,
how far into like maybe a couple's work would you
do this? Well, it really depends on the context of
the couple. Right Again, I have such a range. Um.
(29:13):
This is usually when people are like, well, we just
fight and and I'm starting to see that it's not
necessarily the fighting, it's the lack of vulnerability that you're
doing with one another. And when I start to see
that theme emerge, I'm like, ah, let's do this stance
and they clicks for them, they're like, oh, and so
(29:35):
later down the line, so maybe maybe like session three four,
which is pretty early on, but down the line, so
let's say maybe eight ten. Most of my couples don't
co pass like fifteen and twenty sessions. They're like, oh,
I was leaning in again, huh yep. So that becomes
then like this beautiful metaphor for them to do the
(29:56):
work both in session and out exactly exactly. And question
is how are you making it safe for your partner
to ask for help? Mm hmmm. They're like, oh so
I just had my hands up, I would edit him
my hands out. And I'm like, right, there's a difference.
You've got to be there to say, like, I'm I
can support you. You want to support all right, it's
(30:17):
not completely hands off, like that's why you have a
lover to have some support. But when are you leaning
in and when are you standing on your own feet?
And you're like, yep, no, those aren't all of my feelings, Roger,
that right. So something you just said und your legs
gave me this thought. Um, And I want to talk
more about like what vulnerability actually looks like in partnership
(30:41):
because I think that there is a way where you
can and maybe some of this differentiation stuff or something
else where you can like beat having like what seems
like deep conversations with your partner but you're not actually
being vulnerable. M h do you know what was talking about?
So I want to know, like what does vulnerability look
(31:03):
like as opposed to like us just having maybe fake
deep conversations. Oh I'm fake deep conversation here, right, child,
they give me a headache. Although you'd be surprised how
many couples I get who don't even start off on
the fake deep conversation. Um. And you know what my
sexuality work. I get couples who never talk about their
(31:25):
sexual fantasies with one another, and I'm like, huh, that's interesting.
What's what in the way because they don't feel safe,
they don't feel good enough, they don't feel validated by
their partners. Right. So, true vulnerability means I'm gonna take
a risk and trust you with something, and I trust
(31:48):
that you're gonna accept me. Right. You're not gonna put
me down, you're not gonna judge, you're not gonna try
and fix it, You're just gonna accept it. And then
you share. Now, I don't mean on your first date
that you're trying to test your your intimacy by like
giving your deepest, darkest things that you've never told anybody before.
That's not what this looks like. This looks like over time,
(32:10):
you're building trust. Over time, you're feeling supported. Over time,
you're feeling connected and seen and heard. Right, and then
you say, I just shared something really really intimate with
you and that felt really good. Thanks for hearing me up.
And it's reciprocal. M right, It's not just one sided.
(32:31):
It's saying like, I know you have stuff like that too,
what is it? Or I had this fleeting thought today
and I'll give you extemple My my my husband. I
never called him that my lover. UM. I knew he
really really cared for me because one day he called
me during work hours, which was rare, and he started
venting about his day and I was like, I never
(32:55):
heard this from you before, homie, what is coming? Ah,
you're feeling some stuff today. Let me listen, right, And
he just started like laying out his level of frustration
and I was just there and I'm like, I'm sorry,
you know that's really hard. Is there anything I can
do for you? And he was like, nah, I hate
that chicken you made. That made me feel better. I
(33:15):
was like, cool, I'm glad you had that and we
were able to move move forward. But I knew that
was him sharing with me something that he doesn't do
with every single other person, right, And so it's that
that specialized I'm here for you and all of a
sudden have to be deep but then have to be
like this was my childhood and this was hard. It
could be like, you know what, I have some future
(33:39):
goals and I don't feel like I can achieve them, babe,
and that really sucks today. Or I feel like I
have some future goals and I want to achieve them
and I think you could help me. Will you listen
to them? Right? So, it doesn't have to be something
downtrodden and traumatic, but it's something that's close to your heart,
is in your spirit, and you're sharing that with them
and you're trusting them with it and they're not going
(34:00):
to weaponize against you or put you down forward criticize
you for it. And I'm wondering, Dr Lex, how can
you tell? So I guess this is the point where
you're talking about like you're kind of gradually building this
or you start by sharing something pretty small and then
kind of gradually increase with what you're sharing. Right, Right,
(34:21):
it is gradual because, like I said, relationships that thrive
are built on friendships. Mm hmm. Right. Saying like this,
I mean you don't have to be your best friend
best friend. I have an ultimate homie who is not
my lover and as my ultimate homie, right, and I
can exist differently with both of those folks and it
doesn't make anything anymore or less intimate. But you can
(34:44):
tell aby how they show up, right. So, if you're
feeling like your relationship is really one sided where you're
the rest of it for all of the stuff, all
of the time, and you can never share your stuff,
that's an indicator that true intimacy isn't there. If you're
scared to share these things because you're afraid of being
judged or put down, that your intimacy isn't fair. Right,
(35:07):
If you're not feeling like this person is a friend
and you have to side out your lover, there's a
question about intimacy there. So you can tell about your
you trust your gut here, you're like, you know what
this this feels good. I see this person showing up
and I also see this person willing to engage with me.
And as you as you talk, Dr Lex, I'm wondering
(35:29):
if the ways in which we kind of talk about
dating or not completely off base. What do you mean?
So as you're talking so much about like friendships and
like really liking somebody and that really being the key
to um like long term partnership or marriage. It's not
always what's happening in in dating, right, so so much
(35:52):
of it is about chemistry and even like do I
feel attracted to this person and all of that stuff?
And I think that that there is some of the
like Okay, can I spend with this person? But I
don't know that that is like the driving force for
a lot of people, like this idea of like do
I like this person? Do I genuinely feel like this
is the homie? Right, like this is a great friend
of mine? Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, no, because people are
(36:14):
laid by their loins and you know, I enjoy a
good you know, loin lead session every now forget. However,
that doesn't mean if that's the person you're supposed to
be be with for the rest of your life. Or
they're led by just commitment, right, So maybe they don't
have that friendship. Maybe they're like I have passion and
I have commitment and that's good enough for me, and
(36:38):
is that good enough for you? Like do you really
know this person? There are situations we know that people
are set up for relationships. Um, people have faith based
and that's how they figure out their relationships. And maybe
they haven't gotten to know a person early. People sometimes
feel like clocks are ticking or they're like, it's later
in life, and I really just want to bond with somebody,
(37:00):
and this person looks good and it's healthy, so let's
do it. So all of those things. Yeah, dating sometimes
we don't. But sometimes we feel like the time is
running out. And now if we were talking about like
COVID and all that stuff going on, it does feel
like we time is of the essence, and compatibility is
(37:21):
limited and who you get to see and how you
get to get to folks. There's also a scarcity mentality,
the idea that there's not enough to go around, enough people,
enough love, enough whatever to go around. So I gotta
get with somebody and stick it out with them and
just make it work because this is as good as
it's gonna get. There's nobody else out there, or I
(37:43):
spent so long trying to find this one person. I
can't go back out there again trying to find somebody else,
right right, Yeah, a lot of factors there. Yeah, so
something else. And I do not want to miss this
that I made a note of myself and I've forgotten
now I just remembered your earlier comment just about like
the lack of models we sometimes have in terms of
(38:03):
relationships also makes me think of this whole idea of
hashtag relationship goals, right, and so we sometimes idolize celebrities
are people we see on Instagram or you know, like
all of these people that we don't actually have real
relationships with and make them our relationship goals. And so
(38:25):
I am wondering your thoughts about that and maybe some
of the dangers of you know, kind of this hashtag
relationship goals idea. You know, Um, I think sexologist Shamira
says it, which is like be your own relationship goals, um.
And I love that wholeheartedly, wholeheartedly because I don't I
don't necessarily see as many people looking up to celebrities,
(38:49):
even though I don't exist. I see people looking up
to the deacon and deaconess in their church, or the
couple that's been married for forty five years and that
are happy now despite the fact that they struggled through
the first thirty years of their marriage. That struggle of
that's what it is. If you really we'll struggle together
and we'll come out on others. So why why why
(39:12):
are we suffering on purpose, Like, I don't. I don't
think that's gonna get you any extra relationship points or kudos.
So yeah, those relationship goals. I I definitely think you
have to set what you want right and attainable standards.
So I don't know, maybe like you have some characteristics
that you really really want, that are really really important
(39:35):
to you and that you value, and then you can
be flexible and some others and see where people are
so you can can vet out like will this person
be a good match for me? Do I feel safe
with this person? Can I build a friendship with this person?
Am I learning and growing with this person? Because you've
got to figure that out for yourself. Everybody is different
(39:55):
and once different things and has different values and how
they prioritize those values and relationships it's gonna be what matters.
So yes, admire that cute Instagram couple, cheer on the
Hollywood couple that is making it and doing it, and
then figure out what works for you. Yeah, alright, has
(40:17):
that differentiation. So going back to kind of how we
started this conversation and you just mentioned it again, it
does feel like there is some thinking that like the
relationship is stronger if it has been like tested by
fire m And so I want to know is there
(40:38):
any validity to that? Like, can you have just as
strong of a relationship if you do not have to
like deal with overcoming infidelity or you know, something major
happening if you just kind of live a regular like
you know, we fight about dishes and who didn't wash
the clothes kind of like regular regular regular is Yeah,
(41:02):
So what's funny is I can't I've been asking people
for this word. There's some word. I don't know what
it is. Nobody else know what it is. But it's
akin to trauma bond, which is something that happens like
in abusive relationships. But this type of bond actually happens
when life is difficult. So, um, your mama gostick, or
(41:22):
you lost the pet, you had a really hard semester
at school, you're changing jobs, right, and life is hard,
and that romantic interest, maybe that loring, lusty lover, whoever
it was, showed up for you in ways that you needed,
that helped take care of you join it really really
(41:42):
hard time. So we we all know that the brain
has oxytocin, right, the happiness hormone and things that you
get after sex and orgasm. You get the same feeling.
It's the same hormone that's released when you look at
a newborn baby after birth. It's feel good hormone. Right.
People don't know it's about beso pressing and so veso
(42:05):
president is a hormone that tells you to be in
relationship with somebody. It says, hey, you should boo up
with them and don't they make you happy? Right? Oxytocin
because it gets coupled together and it's excreted during times
when things are really really hard, so it usually can
(42:29):
it can last anywhere up to like two years. So
if you're a person listening to this, then you realize
that you want to get out of a relationship every
two years. That might be veso preson talking interesting. So
beso preson is not secreted in like times when you're
really excited, only when you're like kind of really stressed,
when you're really stressed. It's it's excreted both, but it
(42:51):
does accompany oxytocin in times when it's a lot of
stress and dressed god it okay, it tells you bond
bond showed up for you, and anybody recognized like I
just felt in love with them all of a sudden
and I don't even know where it came from. Interesting. Interesting,
all of that to say, Yeah, it does feel like
(43:13):
there should be a word for that. So all of
our therapist friends or other mental health colleagues who might
be listening, if you know the word for this, let
us know what this word, because it does feel like
it could be a very close cousin to like drama
bon right, Yeah, where it is? Yeah? Yeah, I hadn't
heard of that one. Okay, See, you taught me so
(43:34):
much today, doctor Lex. From you, I'm glad to return
to fame. So any additional resources, doctor Lex, I feel
like you have given us so much today. But any
books that you think or podcasts or videos that you
think people might really be interested in based on what
you shared today. So I love Love Love Seven Principles
(43:55):
of Marriage. It has some great questionnaires in there, an
intimacy builder. There is sexlogist Samira's cards which use your
mouth deck, which are super super useful in figuring out
how to partner with one another. I have worksheets on
my own website lex ellie x x sex sc X
(44:17):
dot d O C dot com. And there's some worksheets
there about pleasure, about conflict and and ranking your conflicts
and then also getting to know and figuring out your
lover and what that looks like. And of course your podcast,
because I think there's just so many nuggets that are
dropped and so helpful, both on that self work so
(44:38):
you can come, you know, depending on what's going on
to your relationship, and then those tidbits that folks do
give out and the folks that you do have on
share so much about checking your own stuff and acknowledging
that that it's there and then giving people permission to
feel that that stuff is there. Nice And of course
(45:01):
we will include all of these in the show notes.
So you've already given us your website, What are your
social media handles you'd like to share? So everything is
the same across all platforms, so Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
I'm I'm not that old, but I am old because
the Tikti talk thing is hard for me. So um,
(45:22):
I don't have one of those, but I am Lex
l E double x sex sc x dot like doctor
d o C on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Perfect. Well,
thank you so much, Dr Lex, I really appreciate it.
Thank you for having me, Dr Joy. You have a
great rest of your day you too. I'm so glad
(45:44):
Dr Lex was able to join us again this week.
Don't forget to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Black Girls dot Com slash Session one four to learn
more about Dr Lex, to grab a copy of her
kids book, or to check out the first time she
was on the podcast discussing getting rid of sexual shame.
Be sure to share your takeaways with us on social
(46:05):
media using the hashtag tv G in session, and don't
forget to share this episode with two other sisters in
your circle. If you're looking for a therapist in your area,
be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy
for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you
want to continue digging into this topic and connect with
some other sisters in your area, come on over and
(46:28):
join us in the Yellow Couch Collective, where we take
a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and
just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy
for Black Girls dot Com slash y CC. Thank y'all
so much for joining me again this week. I look
forward to continue in this conversation with you all. Real soon.
Take good care and the best best Brest, the best
(47:04):
wood
What was that show, Cindy? Do you remember? It was
a show on own? Recently? Uh? Eve a show about
did you see it? I know you said you don't
watch too much TV. Dr Lex, Well, no, I got
hating kids, but I don't get to watch make up.
(00:28):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:49):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope
you love listening to and learning from the podcast, asked,
it is not meant to be a substitute for a
relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks
(01:15):
so much for joining me for session one sixty four
of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. I often hear
comments about how laborious being in relationships is, and while
of course I recognize that we're coming into relationships with
all of our stuff, and so are our partners, but
I'm often curious about where we give this message is
(01:35):
from and how it has become so ingrained in many
of our minds, So of course I had to bring
in one of my incredible colleagues to chat about it. Today,
we're joined by Dr Lex Brown James. Dr Lex is
an Amazon best selling author of These Are My Eyes,
This is My Nose, This is My Volva, These are
(01:57):
My toes. And It's a licensed marriage and the therapist
and a sex certified sexuality educator and supervisor. As CEO
of the Institute for Intimacy and Sexuality, Dr Lex helps
couples connect as the couple's clinician. When not in therapy,
she contracts with organizations regarding reproductive justice and accessible comprehensive,
(02:21):
intersectional and anti oppressive sexuality education. Dr Lex and I
chatted about where these messages about partnership come from, what
she considers the real work of partnership to be for
warning signs you want to be on the lookout for
in your relationship, and she shares what vulnerability looks like
(02:42):
in a partnership. If you notice something that resonates with
you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on
social media using the hashtag TBG. In session here's our conversation.
But thank you so much for joining us again. Dr Legs,
thank you so much for having me. I love being here.
(03:04):
Always a pleasure, always a pleasure to chat with you.
So I thought that today we could talk a little
bit about just this idea that relationships and long term
partnerships has to be a lot of work. So this
is something that we have kind of heard a lot
about recently. But it also feels like historically I often
(03:24):
hear people talk about like, oh my goodness, marriage and
partnership is just so hard, and so I just want
to hear your thoughts about, like why we kind of
hear that so often. One of my favorite Facebook means
going around has been I don't want my grandmama's marriage right.
And I've been doing couples therapy for for ten years
(03:47):
now and sex therapy along with that, and oftentimes I
always ask couples who are your models? Who are your
models for positive romantic relationships? And I get most folks
saying like, I didn't really have a model, or they
have like one aunt or maybe a grandparent, but not
a lot of people had models, and we forget that
(04:09):
relationships way back in the day, even though they were
built somewhat the same. Some were monogamous, some had rolling stones,
some were practicing consensual nonmonogamy and just didn't have the
words for it, and they all existed. However, there's just
this lack of understanding with one another, and I think
(04:32):
that's where it gets passed down, where it's women specifically
are told you've got to make sure you have your
own you don't need to be dependent financially, emotionally, whatever,
stability wise on a man. And then all of the
other like political things to happen where men are feeling gutted,
men are feeling like they don't get ownership, men are
(04:53):
feeling like they don't have roles in relationship or they're
not necessarily able to understand how they've been victims of
patriarchy too and haven't had access to their own emotions
for relationships to flourish. So it gets a bad rap.
It gets oh, you gotta do hard work when you
get in a relationship, and that's not true. I mean,
(05:15):
now there is some work to do, right, I mean,
because we're human, But it often sounds like this painstaking,
like why would anybody ever want to sign up for this? Yes,
I agree. I think there is some work to do,
but I don't think that work is always relationship work, right,
So I tell people my job as a therapist is
(05:37):
to take care of the relationship between you two, right,
And I don't think people come to relationships fifty to fifty.
I think you need to come to a relationship a
hunted and a hunting and maybe you like that day
and that's okay. You need to know that, like, hey, babe,
I'm not a hunt it because I'm just like you know,
this is what's going on for me and baby is
(05:58):
gonna be like I bet so what you need for
me to do to support you into a hungry m hmm, right,
And that's how relationships play out. That's where the work is.
It's that coming together. Most people think that they're gonna
solve and be marriage by wrong conflict in the marriage,
and that's not true because there's always gonna be something conflictual. Right,
(06:21):
Something's gonna pop up, whether it's a level one or
a level ten of disaster, something's gonna pop up and
it's going to be conflictual. But that's not what sues
and and helps marriages thrive. It just helps you resolve
conflict a little bit faster. So I'm curious, actor Lex
when you say your job as the couple's therapist is
to help take care of the relationship, and I would
(06:43):
imagine that a part of it is eventually helping the
couple to learn to take care of the relationship. I
want to know what does that look like, taking care
of the relationship as opposed to the two people in
the relationship or the however, many people right right there
for a knowledge in my polly, I'm fans um. Yeah,
So when I take care of our relationship, it's not
(07:05):
my job to like side on you're right, you're wrong,
You need to do this, you need to do that,
which is how people come to arguments, right, And we
have people who hear that little voice in their heads
and they should stop with the argument, but they go
past that little voice and keep on going. And then
we have people who are oftentimes trying to prove their points,
or they're trying to defend themselves from being criticized, or
(07:27):
we have people that just get so overwhelmed they shout
down right, and so they're like, um, nope, I'm good.
And then we have like belligerent folks who are saying,
if you don't get in the ring to fight with me,
and I'm gonna press every trigger that I know to
make sure you're get in the ring to fight with
me to show you that you care about me, then
you don't care. So if we don't have these knocked down,
(07:48):
word based fights, then you don't care because you can
just easily walk away. And these are the things we've
been trained to think through TV, through our own relationships,
and it's not in the really true right. These are
these are actually the horsemen of relationships, as it's stated
by Gottman, that predict the end of relationships. So taking
(08:09):
care of relationships saying, you all have an attachment injury here.
Your bond has literally been attacked by both of your behaviors.
How are you willing to change that in order to
support this bond between you two? Are we gonna be
able to put your pride aside? Right? Because do you
want to be right or do you want to be
(08:29):
in a relationship? M? Yeah, that question comes up often, right,
And then it's also, well, are you going to self
sacrifice for goodness? Because it doesn't seem like it's working.
Both of you are just very unhappy and then and
then oh the number one you probably get this too,
We just need to learn how to communicate better. Well, well,
(08:52):
I think that that is often what we hear, right,
I mean, and so I want to kind of maybe
use this statements to kind of go back to one
of your earlier statements around like what are our models?
Because I think if you don't necessarily have a lot
of models, we often get a lot of messages that
communication is the thing that is difficult in relationships. Yes, yes, oftentimes,
(09:12):
And I'm I often looked at my couple as I said,
what what about what he just said? Don't you understand?
M So it's not communication, so tell us where it
actually So it's actually a lack of one. Relationships that
lasts are built on friendships and liking. So it's I
like you as a person, I know your character, and
(09:36):
I'm being inmate with you and not necessarily always physical intimacy,
although that's nice to based on whatever your desires and
need an appathite are. It's really saying, hey, I'm taking
this risk, sharing this vulnerability with you, Like I'm a
little bit nervous to tell you I'm embarrassed by it.
I feel shame about it. I'm sad about it, whatever
(09:57):
it is. And I want to share this with you
because because you're not going to criticize me, you're not
gonna put me down right, So if I come in
and be like, man, I felt just like Mark was
coming at my neck today, and my lover goes, well, yeah,
it's probably because you run your mouth too much. Right,
I'm not gonna want to talk to you no more.
(10:18):
I'm not gonna want to have conversations. I'm not gonna
feel close with you. So when you try and come
for butt cuddles later, no wait for me. That hurt me.
But we're not taught and trained to say that hurt
or I felt embarrassed or this was really really hard
for me to stay because that's really nervous about your reaction.
We're not taught to say that at all. We're taught
(10:40):
to quote quote be strong, be stoic. And all that
does is you damaged our relationships because it's like, well,
they must have been all right and ain't saying that
about it, so they're cool. And then the last thing
is we reject repair attempts. So I might have been
hurt by what my lover said right, that critical piece
(11:00):
and him coming to me might have been his way
of preparing. I'm saying, like, I know I messed up earlier,
my bad. How about some buck couples right without saying
all of those words, And I'm like, no, I'm so
mad at you by turning away. So we're communicating, We're
using our bodies to communicate, We're sending each other messages.
(11:21):
It's just none of us are being honest in intimate
in our conversations, and our language is what we need.
M So how do you work through that, doctor lex
like the not rejecting the attempts to repair because I
think in the moment And then this maybe goes back
to the other question you had about like do you
want to be right or do you want to be
in relationship right? Because I think you know and I
(11:41):
am guilty of this myself, right, like if I feel
like I just want to hold on to like being mad,
like I don't really want to hear what you gotta
say right now? True? How do you how do you
move past that enough? And it has to almost happen
in the moment, right so that you don't reject the repair?
How do you kind of get out of your own
ways so that you are not kind of further damaging
(12:02):
the relationship. I actually have all my couples doing anger
iceberg right is something that I use in therapy a lot.
When I talk to people about anger, I say that
it is a response emotion. There's usually a primary emotion.
So anger is a fire. It is hot. It can
punish people that you're met at, it can burn them,
(12:24):
it gets people away from you. All fires need fuel, right,
and that fuel is typically the other emotions. So anger
is only the tip of the iceberg. It's only the
part that hangs out the water that you see up
under the water the rest of the iceberg or all
the other feelings. So dr joy. If I said your
(12:44):
mom was so fat when she jumped up in the sky,
she gets stuck and everybody laughs, you might show me anger.
But what if your mom really is a fat, bodied
person and you're embarrassed by it, or you're ashamed by it,
or you feel are really really sad. It's not safe
to show me those feelings, so you show me anger instead.
(13:07):
Mm hmm. Plantings somebody who hurt you can feel really good,
but it damages the relationship. Between you, So you gotta
get up underneath that anger, saying what are the feelings
that fuel the fire? And oftentimes it takes a little
bit for us to explore, and that means we've got
to recalibrate on our own. So whatever your self caring is, personally,
(13:30):
I like to beat up a bag of ice with
a meat mallet when I'm really upset. It is cheap
and it is a satisfying crutch in my bathtub, and
I get to destroy something that is not gonna cost
me an insurance claim to repair or to replace. But
it gets out my my woes and my angst and
it feels really good. And at the end of the day,
(13:51):
it's water and a dollar ninety nine. But I have
to recalibrate. Yeah, so you're saying that instead of saying,
like I don't want to be bothered right now, I
should be able to acknowledge, like, wow, I'm still really hurt.
So I might not necessarily want to reconnect right now,
but I am acknowledging that you're trying to repair exactly
like baby, what you're doing, like you love it, just
(14:13):
not right now. I'm not ready to engage this way
with you. I'm not like I need to do some
self care. I need to do some self work. And
it takes at least half an hour. People be like,
I'm gonna take ten minutes. I'm gonna go breathe, Like, no,
go ahead, extend that on out, Go ahead watching Netflix show,
take a really long shower, wash your hair, whatever, take
(14:34):
a couple of Take an hour at least, or maybe
half an hour, but take an hour at least to
be like, let me just calm down, let me do
some self reflection, and then I'll be more responsive to
hearing you, and vice versa. The other person needs to
get other feeling too, feeling rejected or feeling unwanted and
then wanting to punish their partner back to or wanting
(14:57):
to say like well you don't want me, and needing
to be more validated. And then you're away from the
original issue, right, which is, hey, I was really hurt
right today, right because now at this point, now we're
just kind of in a tip for tat battle about
like who's going to hold out the longest in terms
of reconnecting. Yeah, yeah, so you mentioned a little earlier,
(15:18):
and I want to go back to this because I
don't know that this is something we've talked about on
the podcast before, one of the horsemen in terms of
a relationship, and so I know that there are four.
So can you share with us the four horsemen when
we talk about relationships? Yes, So I like to remember
cdc s like the cd you know you're in Atlanta
(15:38):
the senor control right, right, And so I'm gonna skip
one of the seeds and come back to it. But
the first see is criticism, and criticism is not necessarily
criticizing a behavior like oh, baby, you always put the
diaper on the baby wrong. That's not what it means.
It means you're CHRISTI first since personhood, you are so lazy.
(16:04):
How come whenever I come home there is nothing ever done.
We've both been at work and you're always like this, right,
So you're criticizing the essence of a person and it
can really destroy them. The D is for defensiveness. So
defensiveness raises its head when you're perceiving an attack. And
(16:25):
I know defensiveness has a whole like trigger warning, and
so does trigger at this point, and so everybody gets
in their fields whenever these words are thrown around. Um.
But for defensiveness, this person really is saying, I think
you're gonna attack me. It often comes when this person
is with somebody who is critical and a criticizer, and
(16:47):
with that defensiveness, they say, I'm preparing myself for an attack.
You could even see a person start to um act
like a kid in a way. It's really interesting to
see that. They're just like, Wow, this whole adult just
came a whole child right in front of me, and
they're saying, why are you always attacking me? I didn't
do anything. I'm tired too, And their voice can modulate
(17:09):
and it can change. They oftentimes try and spend tables around.
I was like, uh no, no, not not super useful,
because then they can't engage and they don't really take
accountability of responsibility for their part. Not the whole responsibility pie,
just a piece of responsibility packed. I'm gonna skip the
second seat and come back to it. But the last
(17:31):
one is s and this is my personal favorite. I'm
really good at stonewalling. I am a stonewaller. I want
to watch an entire half of basketball while my lover
calls my whole government name because I was upset and
I was done right there there's a thing you might see,
(17:53):
Like black people say like this ain't what you want.
Right before they're like done, I was done, and when
I I'm done with something. Stone wallers are exactly what
it says. They turned to a stone wall. It's like
talking to a stone wall. They are not moved, they
are not engaging. They are shut down. You can be
tuned out. They are no longer giving you active listening cues.
(18:16):
My lover at the time, I think, danced in front
of my face for a minute to try and get
my attention. And I swear I looked through him like
his mama drank windex. I could see straight through him.
I had no issues whatsoever, because I was flooded emotionally.
My anxiety peaked. I was angry, I was hurt. There
were no words to convey that, and I was just done.
(18:39):
And those people typically are the ones who specifically that
at least thirty minutes to calm down, to come back
to themselves, to defrag if you will. And then the
last one is contempt. So contempt is the worst of
all of these. Um. Contempt is criticism plus moral superiority.
(19:05):
So it's I'm gonna criticize you and pick you a
part of your personhood and remind you that I'm better
than you m You're lucky to have me. Who would
want somebody so lazy? I did all of this today,
and you only did that typical huh, you're really gonna
wear that? I don't know. Your body isn't what it
(19:27):
used to be, like I can still fit my jeans,
blah blah blah blah blah. And it's dangerous. All of
these are dangerous, but contempt is the hardest one to
come back from. And for every one instance of any
of these criticism, contempt, stonewalling, defensiveness, you need at least
(19:48):
five moments of intimacy to counteract it. That's how toxic
they are. Five It's a five one ratio. And if
that ratio starts to get off, it is a predictability
of divorce and ending a relationship. Mm hmmm. So this is,
of course, all of the work that the Gotmans have
done in their love lad of examining all of these
behaviors in couples. Exactly, exactly, Yeah, And so why do
(20:15):
you think contempt is the most dangerous one? I think
because it puts people out of automatic one down, one up.
And when we say that in in family systems speak,
we mean that it means one person is prioritize and
seemingly more important than another person, and it means you're
(20:37):
no longer on the equal footing. Remember if I said,
if you have a controlationship behind a hunting m hmm,
you're not on equal footing and that one up one
down space. So it can feel like one person is
trying to make themselves better in order to be worthy,
got it? Okay? Okay? So speaking of this coming to
(20:57):
a relationship one one hundred, I think that there is
some confusion about how to do that when we know
that we are all works in progress, right, Like none
of us is completely together all the time, And so
what does this mean to like come to a relationship
one hundred one hundred? Like, how can you do that
if there are still some things you know in your
(21:18):
personal history that you're working through, Like what does that
even look like? Right? So this is when one of
my big favorite therapy words come into play, differentiation, differentiation
and differentiation if you want to go look it up,
is a Bowen bo w eaton theory piece of it
that says that you are able to separate your thoughts
(21:41):
and your feelings, and you're able to separate your thoughts
and your feelings from your family of origin and from
your lover or lovers. Right, So these are my thoughts,
these are my feelings. How does that family usually think
about this? Can I not think the same as my
fai Emily and that be okay? Or is that going
(22:02):
to make me really anxious uncomfortable? And I'm just gonna
go with the flow. Same with my lover. Can we
have different thoughts or different views and that be okay?
It's not a super huge conflict depending on what's going on,
and we can still come together and talk about it
and share. So it's really go ahead, now, you go ahead? No,
(22:25):
I was gonna say so. The one one hundred dozen
really focus on whether you still have work to do
on yourself. It really is more about, like, can you
show up in this relationship and claim ownership of your
own thoughts and feelings and know the difference exactly? Because
what we see and we see couples they get really
really close and comfy. The word is fused where they
(22:45):
start to think like one person, right, or they start
to exist as one person when they're they're two separate entities.
So if um dr. Joy, if your lover was really
really mad at I don't know a coworker, it is
not your job to call that coworker and be like,
why I heard you had did this to my lover
and me you got beat now, Like, that's not that's
(23:08):
not your physician, it's not your role, all right. You
trust your lover to handle his disputes and how they're
comfortable or uncomfortable. But you say, hey, babe, I can
support you, I can get ear to listen. I can
help you problem solved if you like. And you might
be upset that they're upset, but you're not going to
step outside of that to go take care of the
(23:29):
issue for them because those aren't your feelings. Those are
your lovers feelings. So you don't have enough of that.
So what kind of like complications might we cause in
our relationship if we're not differentiated enough. So when you're
not differentiated, sometimes it can look like you can isolate
(23:49):
from others, one which is ostracizing. You still need your
own independent likes, hobbies, time to yourself, and then too,
when there are those things that you don't agree on,
it can start to feel intimidating and threatening to the
actual moment you have. What do you mean we both
(24:11):
don't think that this is the way that you're supposed
to make Ravioli. Huh, Well, what else do you not
agree with me on? And so it makes it harder
to start to have these conversations of intricacies and nuances
and differences when those are what make us quirky and
what makes us separate and priceless in the world. Right,
(24:35):
it's our uniqueness, And so you can lose some of
that and then also lose some of the trust. Well,
my lover won't like me if they know that this
is something that I want to do or this is
something I find interesting. And for some people that's true.
There are hard limits for all folks. Some people are
just like, Nope, that's not my thing. I don't want
to be with a lover who thinks this way. I'm good.
(24:56):
But that risk of silencing yourself also starts to create
this and so you don't get to get as close
to your lever and maintain a romantic and carrying bond,
and you have the opportunity in space to to break
that bond or to cause an attachment injury. Like I said,
so step out of that relationship because you might have
(25:16):
that need met somewhere else. It can become really risk
m hm. And is this the same place where we
would see some of this ride or die thinking come
into play a doctor lex Yes. Yes, Um, I don't
know where that mentality came from, like I don't even
know where we're going, and what's gonna happen. Who's gonna
be there before before we ride or dying? Um? No,
(25:40):
thank you, But yes, it's it's where we see either
you down from me or you not. It's really all
or nothing level of either you show up for me
with no questions asked, or you're not really for me.
And that's not necessarily true, right because we're whole rounded people.
It's not just split decisions. It's context of I want
(26:00):
to make sure you're safe. I want to make sure
i'm safe too, and I have I stand on my
own two feet here. I will support you, but it's
not my job to take this over and fix it
for you, and that can lead to a lot of resentment.
That can lead to a lot of resentment of I'm
taking care of everybody in this relationship and I'm tired
on either party. Yeah yeah, So Dr Lex, how do
(26:24):
you call out differentiation to a couple, because I would
imagine that for some people this happens unconsciously and they
don't even know that it's happening in their relationship. You
are so right. I am experiential in the therapy room.
I like for my couples within reason to get up
and move their bodies. So I have them do David
(26:45):
Snarches differentiation stance, and the way they do this is
really fun. So they make their palms kiss, so it's
like a high five that has to stay there. And
they do this in both hands, and they stand on
their own two feet, and then I have them step
backwards while maintaining the palm to palm contact, and so
(27:05):
I get them to a point where they're really leaning
in on each other. So it's really an upside down
b and we talk about what's comfortable for them, and
what we'll find is is that some couples really really
like that leaning in on each other. It feels good.
It's I know my lover is they're they're pressing back
on me. It feels really comfortable. I know if I
(27:28):
take them away, then I'll fall, and they'll fall. So
we have to be in this together. And when an actuality,
that's what codependency looks like, right, It's it's where you're
depending on a person for holding you up and lifting
you up instead of standing on your own feet. Differentiation
(27:48):
looks like standing on your own two feet and offering
your hand to your lover and your partner. It's just
scarier because a person standing up on their own two
feet who is saying, let my palms meet your palms,
you can easily take their palms away and walk away.
And that gets really scary for folks because they can
(28:10):
choose somewhat easily to not be a part of that
relationship anymore. And so when I used this, usually around
sessions three and four, most of my couples don't come
more than like fifteen sessions. So later on, let's say
sessions like eight through ten, when we're in a real
sweet spot and meat of work, and my couples will
(28:32):
come back and be like, oh, I was leaning in
right there. Okay, yep, I see it, So I need
to stand back up, and I'm like, yes, now, how
do we get you there? And so they start to
recognize when you're losing that differentiation for one another. Wow,
So there is so much picked into that one exercise. Yes,
(28:53):
this was one of my favorite. I've never heard of
this one. See. This is why I love having such
a life variety of people, because I don't do a
couple of work. Right, so I've never heard of this exercise. Um, so,
how far into like maybe a couple's work would you
do this? Well, it really depends on the context of
the couple. Right Again, I have such a range. Um.
(29:13):
This is usually when people are like, well, we just
fight and and I'm starting to see that it's not
necessarily the fighting, it's the lack of vulnerability that you're
doing with one another. And when I start to see
that theme emerge, I'm like, ah, let's do this stance
and they clicks for them, they're like, oh, and so
(29:35):
later down the line, so maybe maybe like session three four,
which is pretty early on, but down the line, so
let's say maybe eight ten. Most of my couples don't
co pass like fifteen and twenty sessions. They're like, oh,
I was leaning in again, huh yep. So that becomes
then like this beautiful metaphor for them to do the
(29:56):
work both in session and out exactly exactly. And question
is how are you making it safe for your partner
to ask for help? Mm hmmm. They're like, oh so
I just had my hands up, I would edit him
my hands out. And I'm like, right, there's a difference.
You've got to be there to say, like, I'm I
can support you. You want to support all right, it's
(30:17):
not completely hands off, like that's why you have a
lover to have some support. But when are you leaning
in and when are you standing on your own feet?
And you're like, yep, no, those aren't all of my feelings, Roger,
that right. So something you just said und your legs
gave me this thought. Um, And I want to talk
more about like what vulnerability actually looks like in partnership
(30:41):
because I think that there is a way where you
can and maybe some of this differentiation stuff or something
else where you can like beat having like what seems
like deep conversations with your partner but you're not actually
being vulnerable. M h do you know what was talking about?
So I want to know, like what does vulnerability look
(31:03):
like as opposed to like us just having maybe fake
deep conversations. Oh I'm fake deep conversation here, right, child,
they give me a headache. Although you'd be surprised how
many couples I get who don't even start off on
the fake deep conversation. Um. And you know what my
sexuality work. I get couples who never talk about their
(31:25):
sexual fantasies with one another, and I'm like, huh, that's interesting.
What's what in the way because they don't feel safe,
they don't feel good enough, they don't feel validated by
their partners. Right. So, true vulnerability means I'm gonna take
a risk and trust you with something, and I trust
(31:48):
that you're gonna accept me. Right. You're not gonna put
me down, you're not gonna judge, you're not gonna try
and fix it, You're just gonna accept it. And then
you share. Now, I don't mean on your first date
that you're trying to test your your intimacy by like
giving your deepest, darkest things that you've never told anybody before.
That's not what this looks like. This looks like over time,
(32:10):
you're building trust. Over time, you're feeling supported. Over time,
you're feeling connected and seen and heard. Right, and then
you say, I just shared something really really intimate with
you and that felt really good. Thanks for hearing me up.
And it's reciprocal. M right, It's not just one sided.
(32:31):
It's saying like, I know you have stuff like that too,
what is it? Or I had this fleeting thought today
and I'll give you extemple My my my husband. I
never called him that my lover. UM. I knew he
really really cared for me because one day he called
me during work hours, which was rare, and he started
venting about his day and I was like, I never
(32:55):
heard this from you before, homie, what is coming? Ah,
you're feeling some stuff today. Let me listen, right, And
he just started like laying out his level of frustration
and I was just there and I'm like, I'm sorry,
you know that's really hard. Is there anything I can
do for you? And he was like, nah, I hate
that chicken you made. That made me feel better. I
(33:15):
was like, cool, I'm glad you had that and we
were able to move move forward. But I knew that
was him sharing with me something that he doesn't do
with every single other person, right, And so it's that
that specialized I'm here for you and all of a
sudden have to be deep but then have to be
like this was my childhood and this was hard. It
could be like, you know what, I have some future
(33:39):
goals and I don't feel like I can achieve them, babe,
and that really sucks today. Or I feel like I
have some future goals and I want to achieve them
and I think you could help me. Will you listen
to them? Right? So, it doesn't have to be something
downtrodden and traumatic, but it's something that's close to your heart,
is in your spirit, and you're sharing that with them
and you're trusting them with it and they're not going
(34:00):
to weaponize against you or put you down forward criticize
you for it. And I'm wondering, Dr Lex, how can
you tell? So I guess this is the point where
you're talking about like you're kind of gradually building this
or you start by sharing something pretty small and then
kind of gradually increase with what you're sharing. Right, Right,
(34:21):
it is gradual because, like I said, relationships that thrive
are built on friendships. Mm hmm. Right. Saying like this,
I mean you don't have to be your best friend
best friend. I have an ultimate homie who is not
my lover and as my ultimate homie, right, and I
can exist differently with both of those folks and it
doesn't make anything anymore or less intimate. But you can
(34:44):
tell aby how they show up, right. So, if you're
feeling like your relationship is really one sided where you're
the rest of it for all of the stuff, all
of the time, and you can never share your stuff,
that's an indicator that true intimacy isn't there. If you're
scared to share these things because you're afraid of being
judged or put down, that your intimacy isn't fair. Right,
(35:07):
If you're not feeling like this person is a friend
and you have to side out your lover, there's a
question about intimacy there. So you can tell about your
you trust your gut here, you're like, you know what
this this feels good. I see this person showing up
and I also see this person willing to engage with me.
And as you as you talk, Dr Lex, I'm wondering
(35:29):
if the ways in which we kind of talk about
dating or not completely off base. What do you mean?
So as you're talking so much about like friendships and
like really liking somebody and that really being the key
to um like long term partnership or marriage. It's not
always what's happening in in dating, right, so so much
(35:52):
of it is about chemistry and even like do I
feel attracted to this person and all of that stuff?
And I think that that there is some of the
like Okay, can I spend with this person? But I
don't know that that is like the driving force for
a lot of people, like this idea of like do
I like this person? Do I genuinely feel like this
is the homie? Right, like this is a great friend
of mine? Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, no, because people are
(36:14):
laid by their loins and you know, I enjoy a
good you know, loin lead session every now forget. However,
that doesn't mean if that's the person you're supposed to
be be with for the rest of your life. Or
they're led by just commitment, right, So maybe they don't
have that friendship. Maybe they're like I have passion and
I have commitment and that's good enough for me, and
(36:38):
is that good enough for you? Like do you really
know this person? There are situations we know that people
are set up for relationships. Um, people have faith based
and that's how they figure out their relationships. And maybe
they haven't gotten to know a person early. People sometimes
feel like clocks are ticking or they're like, it's later
in life, and I really just want to bond with somebody,
(37:00):
and this person looks good and it's healthy, so let's
do it. So all of those things. Yeah, dating sometimes
we don't. But sometimes we feel like the time is
running out. And now if we were talking about like
COVID and all that stuff going on, it does feel
like we time is of the essence, and compatibility is
(37:21):
limited and who you get to see and how you
get to get to folks. There's also a scarcity mentality,
the idea that there's not enough to go around, enough people,
enough love, enough whatever to go around. So I gotta
get with somebody and stick it out with them and
just make it work because this is as good as
it's gonna get. There's nobody else out there, or I
(37:43):
spent so long trying to find this one person. I
can't go back out there again trying to find somebody else,
right right, Yeah, a lot of factors there. Yeah, so
something else. And I do not want to miss this
that I made a note of myself and I've forgotten
now I just remembered your earlier comment just about like
the lack of models we sometimes have in terms of
(38:03):
relationships also makes me think of this whole idea of
hashtag relationship goals, right, and so we sometimes idolize celebrities
are people we see on Instagram or you know, like
all of these people that we don't actually have real
relationships with and make them our relationship goals. And so
(38:25):
I am wondering your thoughts about that and maybe some
of the dangers of you know, kind of this hashtag
relationship goals idea. You know, Um, I think sexologist Shamira
says it, which is like be your own relationship goals, um.
And I love that wholeheartedly, wholeheartedly because I don't I
don't necessarily see as many people looking up to celebrities,
(38:49):
even though I don't exist. I see people looking up
to the deacon and deaconess in their church, or the
couple that's been married for forty five years and that
are happy now despite the fact that they struggled through
the first thirty years of their marriage. That struggle of
that's what it is. If you really we'll struggle together
and we'll come out on others. So why why why
(39:12):
are we suffering on purpose, Like, I don't. I don't
think that's gonna get you any extra relationship points or kudos.
So yeah, those relationship goals. I I definitely think you
have to set what you want right and attainable standards.
So I don't know, maybe like you have some characteristics
that you really really want, that are really really important
(39:35):
to you and that you value, and then you can
be flexible and some others and see where people are
so you can can vet out like will this person
be a good match for me? Do I feel safe
with this person? Can I build a friendship with this person?
Am I learning and growing with this person? Because you've
got to figure that out for yourself. Everybody is different
(39:55):
and once different things and has different values and how
they prioritize those values and relationships it's gonna be what matters.
So yes, admire that cute Instagram couple, cheer on the
Hollywood couple that is making it and doing it, and
then figure out what works for you. Yeah, alright, has
(40:17):
that differentiation. So going back to kind of how we
started this conversation and you just mentioned it again, it
does feel like there is some thinking that like the
relationship is stronger if it has been like tested by
fire m And so I want to know is there
(40:38):
any validity to that? Like, can you have just as
strong of a relationship if you do not have to
like deal with overcoming infidelity or you know, something major
happening if you just kind of live a regular like
you know, we fight about dishes and who didn't wash
the clothes kind of like regular regular regular is Yeah,
(41:02):
So what's funny is I can't I've been asking people
for this word. There's some word. I don't know what
it is. Nobody else know what it is. But it's
akin to trauma bond, which is something that happens like
in abusive relationships. But this type of bond actually happens
when life is difficult. So, um, your mama gostick, or
(41:22):
you lost the pet, you had a really hard semester
at school, you're changing jobs, right, and life is hard,
and that romantic interest, maybe that loring, lusty lover, whoever
it was, showed up for you in ways that you needed,
that helped take care of you join it really really
(41:42):
hard time. So we we all know that the brain
has oxytocin, right, the happiness hormone and things that you
get after sex and orgasm. You get the same feeling.
It's the same hormone that's released when you look at
a newborn baby after birth. It's feel good hormone. Right.
People don't know it's about beso pressing and so veso
(42:05):
president is a hormone that tells you to be in
relationship with somebody. It says, hey, you should boo up
with them and don't they make you happy? Right? Oxytocin
because it gets coupled together and it's excreted during times
when things are really really hard, so it usually can
(42:29):
it can last anywhere up to like two years. So
if you're a person listening to this, then you realize
that you want to get out of a relationship every
two years. That might be veso preson talking interesting. So
beso preson is not secreted in like times when you're
really excited, only when you're like kind of really stressed,
when you're really stressed. It's it's excreted both, but it
(42:51):
does accompany oxytocin in times when it's a lot of
stress and dressed god it okay, it tells you bond
bond showed up for you, and anybody recognized like I
just felt in love with them all of a sudden
and I don't even know where it came from. Interesting. Interesting,
all of that to say, Yeah, it does feel like
(43:13):
there should be a word for that. So all of
our therapist friends or other mental health colleagues who might
be listening, if you know the word for this, let
us know what this word, because it does feel like
it could be a very close cousin to like drama
bon right, Yeah, where it is? Yeah? Yeah, I hadn't
heard of that one. Okay, See, you taught me so
(43:34):
much today, doctor Lex. From you, I'm glad to return
to fame. So any additional resources, doctor Lex, I feel
like you have given us so much today. But any
books that you think or podcasts or videos that you
think people might really be interested in based on what
you shared today. So I love Love Love Seven Principles
(43:55):
of Marriage. It has some great questionnaires in there, an
intimacy builder. There is sexlogist Samira's cards which use your
mouth deck, which are super super useful in figuring out
how to partner with one another. I have worksheets on
my own website lex ellie x x sex sc X
(44:17):
dot d O C dot com. And there's some worksheets
there about pleasure, about conflict and and ranking your conflicts
and then also getting to know and figuring out your
lover and what that looks like. And of course your podcast,
because I think there's just so many nuggets that are
dropped and so helpful, both on that self work so
(44:38):
you can come, you know, depending on what's going on
to your relationship, and then those tidbits that folks do
give out and the folks that you do have on
share so much about checking your own stuff and acknowledging
that that it's there and then giving people permission to
feel that that stuff is there. Nice And of course
(45:01):
we will include all of these in the show notes.
So you've already given us your website, What are your
social media handles you'd like to share? So everything is
the same across all platforms, so Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
I'm I'm not that old, but I am old because
the Tikti talk thing is hard for me. So um,
(45:22):
I don't have one of those, but I am Lex
l E double x sex sc x dot like doctor
d o C on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Perfect. Well,
thank you so much, Dr Lex, I really appreciate it.
Thank you for having me, Dr Joy. You have a
great rest of your day you too. I'm so glad
(45:44):
Dr Lex was able to join us again this week.
Don't forget to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Black Girls dot Com slash Session one four to learn
more about Dr Lex, to grab a copy of her
kids book, or to check out the first time she
was on the podcast discussing getting rid of sexual shame.
Be sure to share your takeaways with us on social
(46:05):
media using the hashtag tv G in session, and don't
forget to share this episode with two other sisters in
your circle. If you're looking for a therapist in your area,
be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy
for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you
want to continue digging into this topic and connect with
some other sisters in your area, come on over and
(46:28):
join us in the Yellow Couch Collective, where we take
a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and
just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy
for Black Girls dot Com slash y CC. Thank y'all
so much for joining me again this week. I look
forward to continue in this conversation with you all. Real soon.
Take good care and the best best Brest, the best
(47:04):
wood
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