June 23, 2021 • 30 mins
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
Y’all know that I am a huge reality tv fan and one of my favorite newer shows is "The Circle" on Netflix. Season 2 of the show wrapped in May 2021 and there were lots of twists and turns that required the contestants to think quickly on their feet and stay on top of their strategies. As the season progressed, I was paying close attention to the Black women in the game and the choices they were making and how other players were responding to them, and thinking a lot about what kind of strategy I might employ if I were to be on a show like this. Needless to say I had lots of questions and who better to help us answer some of these questions than Season 2 winner, Deleesa St Agathe. Deleesa and I chatted about why she chose to go into the game as her husband Trevor, how she prepared for the game, her thoughts about the perception of Black women on reality tv, how she kept herself busy in isolation, and the surprise of finding out she was expecting while filming.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
MHA. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a
weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the
small decisions we can make to become the best possible
(00:22):
versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope
you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it
(00:43):
is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
for joining me for session to the Therapy for a
Black Girls podcast. Go get right into the episode after
(01:03):
a quick word from our sponsors. Y'all know that I
am a huge reality TV fan and one of my
favorite newer shows is The Circle on Netflix. The Circle
is a game show where the contestants all move into
(01:25):
the same apartment building, but have no interaction with one
another outside of a social media like app called The Circle.
So you can enter the game as yourself or as
someone else a k a. A catfish. The other players
only know who you are based on the pictures you
share in your circle profile, and each week the contestants
rank one another to decide who will be at the
(01:47):
top known as the Influencers, and whoever is at the
bottom must leave the circle. So the whole game is
a game of strategizing to try to be the last
one left in the circle to win the cash prize.
Season one of the show premier to in season two
just wrapped up at me and they added lots of
twist and turns this season. And as I watched the season,
(02:07):
I was of course paying attention to the sisters in
the game and the choices they were making and how
other players were responding to them, and thinking a lot
about what kind of strategy might I employ if I
were to be on a show like this, And of
course I had a ton of questions. So here today
to talk about her strategies for the game is season
two winner The Lisa st a God. The Lisa is
(02:30):
the founder of two successful online businesses, The Unique Shop
in the Goodie Box Store. She's also working on a
TV show based around her family and is currently writing
a series of children's books. The Lisa is passionate about
building platforms that shine light on uplifting black families and
creating platforms for mothers who are also entrepreneurs. The Lisa
(02:53):
and I chatted about why she chose to go into
the game as her husband Trevor, how she prepared for
the game, her thoughts about the perception of black women
on reality TV, how she kept herself busy in isolation,
and the surprise of finding out she was expecting while filming.
I should know that the Lisa was still pregnant when
(03:13):
we recorded our interview, but their sweet baby, Tori Sky,
has since been born. If there's something that resonates with
you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on
social media using the hashtag TBG in Session. Here's our conversation.
We are so excited to have you here today. To Lisa, Oh,
(03:36):
I'm so excited to be here. I'm honored. Actually, yeah,
So we are all huge fans of the Circle, and
we were hooked on season one, and then it feels
like y'all really came in hot, yeah in this second season, right,
and I'm guessing you know some benefit of like having
watched the first season, but it really feels like people
came in with their strategies and like how they were
planning to win this thing exactly. Much like real social media,
(04:00):
you know, this is kind of social media can be curated,
and there are some things that are like shiny and
not reel, and other things are very genuine. And it
really feels like you were able to cultivate some real
connections with people that lasted even after the finale. Can
you say more about, like how you feel like you
managed to do that? Absolutely throughout the entire game, I
was really being myself. It's redundant to constantly say, you know,
(04:22):
I was so genuine, but I really was. But when
you're speaking to other players in the Circle, that's still
the only communication you have with like the outside world,
so everything is amped up times one hundred. So when
you're talking to somebody and you say I made a connection,
you really made that connection and it extended beyond the
game for all of us, I think, honestly, And are
(04:44):
you still in contact with any of the players. I
talked to all the players. I've even communicated with season
one cast. Everybody is great. I have to say that
The Circle is just a different type of reality show,
and the love really does extend outside the show. The support,
the encouragement, like the friendships, Like we all encourage each other,
we promote each other, we chat and gossip and we're
(05:08):
actually friends. I know people probably I don't know if
they don't believe it or it's just taboo, but we
really are and it's really cool. Yeah, that is cool
because you don't always hear that with reality Showcase definitely
not with reality shows. You always hear like the drama
that goes on or like, you know, you can kind
of tell sometimes like people are friending for this show,
(05:30):
you know, like oh, this group of girls or oh
we we're part of this group. And it's like, but
we don't see you hanging out like outside the show.
I don't get to be there because a lot of
them are in l A. But there's a lot of
pictures of us hanging out. You know. We constantly on
Instagram live, but constantly our video chat, texting each other,
face timing each other. It's true connections for real m.
(05:52):
So I would love to hear more just about your
strategy for trying to win the game, which of course
you ultimately were successful at. So can you tell us
more about your decision to play as your husband Trevor?
Was that always the plan? So I'm a social butterfly,
Like I'm the most social probably out of like almost
all my friends, like maybe one, like we're on the
(06:14):
same level. But I'm extremely social. I get along with
everybody anywhere. Any time I turned a boring time, it's
a fun time. So I wanted to go on as myself.
I was like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna go on as myself.
We're gonna have a great time. People gonna love me.
But as I was thinking about it, you know, only
the first season was out, and I'm just like season two,
which would be the one that I was applying for,
(06:35):
it's definitely going to be much different. They're gonna bring
out all the works, and people are gonna come in
with strategy and wanting to win. So I just feel like,
based off of my own social media, my own dynamic
in life with other people, Like I'm not about drama,
but I somehow gets sucked into it just being a woman,
(06:55):
being a female, it's very difficult. So I'm like, that's
probably not the best move. And then you know, I
was just staring at my husband and I'm like, I
think he would be great, Like people love him, like
even when he does wrong, He's still an angel in
everybody's eyes. I'm just like, oh yeah, I definitely have
to try to go and ask him. And I think
I can get further along being him than being myself,
(07:17):
because for some reason, men aren't sucked into drama as
much as women are. Also because I just feel like
I wanted to portray the single father aspect, especially as
like a black man, because I just think that they
don't get enough credit. Yeah, and I was definitely really
impressed by the binder that y'all came up with. This
seems like before you win in Can you tell us
(07:38):
more about that binder? Oh? Yes, we call it the
Catfish Bible. We since come up with the name hashtag
Catfish Bible. Everything is in there. It's like how to
Be a Man dot com. Like it's crazy. I have
sports in their haircuts, brands of cologns and brands of alcohol,
different brands of cars. Like I was not trying to
(07:58):
get caught up at all at all. I have so
much sports stuff in there. I since forgot it all,
but I still have the book, so maybe I'll go
through that one day. Yeah, what I mean, they did
throw a couple of curveballs this season, because you know
there were the challenges, right, which is how what's his
name got caught up with the makeup challenge? Yeah, it
(08:20):
was very obvious, like I don't think that this was
a woman doing this. Yeah. You know what's funny about
that challenge is people were really onto me, And I
was surprised because I thought it was just like an
arts and craft thing for me. I didn't really see
it as Oh, I didn't makeup so well because I
do make up. I didn't put any eyeshadow, I didn't
(08:43):
really do anything that I would do for my normal face.
And because Jack Emily's makeup was so bad, it kind
of overshadowed my work, which I think helped me out. Obviously,
you just reminded me of him for it. For Jack
for Eman, oh gosh, it was such a bad job,
(09:06):
I know, and he was crying. Oh my god, I
feel so bad. Yeah, And there wasn't anything that you
could have known, right, because I mean, I think, like
you mentioned, you anticipated that some things would be different,
but I don't think anybody anticipated that you would have
these challenges that had the potential to like out you
as being a catfish exactly like you don't know what
to expect when you go in there at all. Like,
(09:27):
even if you try to compare it to season one,
it was completely different, right, right, And how long is
the filming? How long were you all there? I want
to say it was like four to six weeks, probably
somewhere in between. Yeah, a long time. We had a
quarantine two weeks beforehand, and you know, the filming takes
up time, and yeah, it was quite a long time.
(09:47):
And so this was already Wow, COVID nineteen had started,
so you likely had already been kind of quarantining at home.
So what was that like? Kind of having isolation, but
just in a different situation, you know. At for I'm
not gonna lie, it felt peaceful because I was always
with my daughter seven thanks twenty four seven. Even my
(10:08):
husband I think at some point he wanted up going
back to work, so he had a little break and
it was just me and her. Not listen. You know,
I love my little girl and I love her so much.
But at the same time, it was definitely a breath
of fresh air to just be able to like take
a bath by myself and like work out and sleep
whenever I want and not have to worry about like
(10:30):
really anything like taking care of another little human. And
then obviously, of course, I mean I always missed her.
I still missed her, but then it just kind of
started getting like, Okay, I really would like to have
some people interaction now, but the game started. So then
that really helped me to like stay focused in the game,
like to focus almost right, right, So what kinds of
(10:52):
tools did you use to kind of, you know, cope
with being isolated. We had a lot of downtime, but
we also did not have a lot of downtime. I
don't know how to make that makes sense, but whenever
you're filming something, it's it's a lot of like get
ready and weight type of thing. The filming process takes
a while itself. So any downtime that I had, like
(11:14):
I was really like just making sure my makeup was cute,
my wigs were cute, and I had them sitting on
my head properly. You know, I was doing puzzles, but
a lot of times I was literally staring at the
TV like, Okay, who's out to get me? Who do
I need to be worried about? Who's really my friend?
Who cannot really trust? Who's loyal to me? Like I
was just really focused on the game. Like I mean
(11:35):
when I say I came in to really win and
try my hardest, that's exactly what I came to do.
M Yeah, that became very clear, very quickly. So you
already mentioned that in being observant of season one and
knowing like that they would likely up the anti and
season two, and thinking about like how women are often
perceiving I'd like to go a little deeper in thinking
(11:57):
about black women, particularly the perception, you know, because we
saw last season Karen, who was a plus size black
woman into the game as Mercedes, who was a bisexual
Black woman but had more kind of conventionally attractive features.
And I'm wondering if any of that kind of played
into your mind about like how black women might be
perceived in the circle. I'm a black woman, so if
(12:19):
I would have came in as myself, that's one of
the main reasons why I didn't want to, because, you know,
being a black woman, like, it's so many stigmas around it.
If you say something that's a little bit too honest,
you can be considered aggressive. But then if you're sitting
there crying or you know, you just let out some emotion.
It's Oh, they're too emotional. It's like you kind of
(12:39):
can't win just as a black woman in general. And
I just would have seen even bigger challenges coming in
as myself. They would have looked at my pictures and
would be like, oh, she stuck up, like just on
my Instagram, Oh you look like you know, you have
your restling bitch face all the time. And I'm like,
I actually smile all the time. But Okay. People have
(13:01):
certain statements on being a black woman, and I just
I didn't want to worry too much about that. I
wanted to really just like stay true to the game
and stay focused on the game and not have to
worry about constantly like defending myself as a black woman
for sure. Yeah, I mean I speaking to some of
what you're sharing. We saw some of that, I think
(13:23):
with Terrelisia this season, right, So this whole thing with
her in Savannah, I think kind of got wildly blown
out of proportion. Absolutely, that whole situation insanely blown out
of proportion. And it's like, how far are we after
the show and people are still constantly, Oh, I'm seam
tar Relisha, I'm team Savannah, you know, ter Relisha is
such a sweetheart. It's so funny, like she's so sweet.
(13:45):
I mean, they're both sweet. I love them both. But
I think that because tar Relisha is a black woman,
black people in general, I want to say, like, I
just feel like black women are held to a different
standard than other races, and for her, she was looked
at as being quote unquote aggressive, even though I don't
(14:07):
necessary thing she was. She just looked at completely different
than Savannah was looked at. I get this right, because
you know, I know that usually when like it's us
in one other black women in the space, like there
is a kinship that we feel like this wanting to connect,
and it seems like you were trying really hard to
do that with kid without like letting her know that
you were also another black woman. Absolutely, when I got
(14:31):
the chance to finally talk to Terali Sha and Cat,
I spoke to both of them at the same time.
That's why I was like, you know what, let's bring
our beautiful black queens together, because I know that really
should been through a lot, and I know that that
was hard on her. You know, we only saw what
we saw on our side, But I can't imagine especially
like being on TV like that would have been just
(14:52):
very difficult for her to go through and process. And
then even after the fact, the backlash that she was
going to get. But I wanted to give her a
fair chance, and yeah, I was trying to connect with
how can I let them know, like, girl, I got
your back because after because I'm one of you without
saying I'm one of your right, Yeah, so I had
to pull out the works and bring my daughter into it.
(15:12):
Um yeah, but definitely, and you can tell that we
definitely connected, all of us. It's really is actually one
of the people that I speak to the most. Um
and Cat you can tell. Even she said it on
the show. She's like, You're one of the people that
I had the most natural connection with. So she was
talking to Charber, but you know, you were talking to
me as another black woman, you know, like you felt
(15:33):
that natural connection because we're the same. Yeah. Yeah, And
it does feel like you were doing a masterful job.
I think of like thinking on your feet really quickly
and kind of translating between yourself and Trevor, like still
making it believable that it was coming from a guy.
Thank you. It was a little bit difficult but yeah,
we got through it more from my conversation with the
(15:54):
Lisa right after the break, So I am curious just
to hear more about like how the whole interaction is
when you are you know, there's so much you're interpreting
only based on like texts and pictures. Do you feel
(16:16):
like you were able to kind of feel the energy
behind the words that people were sharing. Well, that's why
it takes so long to have these conversations, because when
you read something, you know, you interpret it and you're
reading it out loud and you're trying to understand what
the other person is saying, and then you have to
now respond and you have to make it in a
(16:36):
way that they can understand and interpret what you're saying
the way you want them to receive it. Um. So
it was so difficult because I was there thinking like, Okay,
if I say it this way, it sounds more feminine.
But then if I say it this way, it sounds
like I'm trying too hard. It was very confusing and
very difficult, and there were so many times I was like,
(16:57):
dang man. If I was myself, I could just be
like yeah, girl, yes, just like tell me to see
like it's just so easy when you're going at yourself.
And that's what I'm saying, Like, I don't know why
people hate catfish is, but we don't get enough credit, Okay,
Like we have to go in from jump and like
it's just so difficult from the beginning, and then you
(17:18):
have these challenges that are like out to get you.
I don't care what anybody says, they're out to get us.
Like we have it very difficult. I mean when you
come prepared, okay, you can do anything you put your
mind to. Yeah, well you definitely weren't prepared. That's thank you.
So between your large social media following and your experience
(17:39):
on The Circle, what kinds of things do you think
you've learned about perception and popularity. I feel like I've
kind of always felt this way. I'm not a person
that really judges other people, so I am hoping to
basically change the minds of other people. This is why
The Circle is such a great show, because I think
(17:59):
it's um a place where people can see how and
why others are judged based off their social media personal personality.
But then in the background, you know they're this completely
different person and it's just like you can't really judge
a book by its cover, and that's like the oldest
thing ever, Like, you can't judge a book by its cover,
(18:20):
and even I'm guilty of it at times, you know,
Like there was times in the Circle I was judging
other people and I'm like, Okay, Jack, definitely, I mean
I knew Jack was a guy, and I was right,
but still, you know, still, and I was judging with Courtney.
I'm like, oh, Courtney was shady and he was doing
this and I didn't know like the backstory behind it.
So I think, you know, that's something I'm still learning.
(18:42):
But you know, I tried my best not to judge
other people based off their social media and I'm hoping
that that's one thing that a lot of people learned
from the circle, learned from myself, and just like being
able to get to know me more as a person
as opposed to just what you see on my profile.
So are there other ways that being in the circle
(19:02):
has changed your approach to like your own social media platforms.
I'm definitely going on Instagram Live now, and I do
love that feature, like just being able to go live
on any platform in general, because they get to see
the real, real version of me, and I used to
always be terrified of it. So I think the circle
really helped me with my own confidence and like building
(19:22):
my own self esteem and encouraging and motivating myself because
nobody was there to do that for me. Usually I
have Trevor to do that, and he wasn't there. But
in general, like just on social media for sure, because
I would never go on any type of life, it
would always have to be recorded. I always have to
use a filter. I always have to make sure I'm
looking good, I'm posting the best picture. I hope to
(19:44):
make sure, like you know, my stomach is held in,
my booty looks good, all of that stuff. And now
it's just like, you know what, You're either gonna love
me or hate me. That's up to you to decide,
and there's nothing that I can do about it, Like
I can't somebody to like me. So you're either gonna
like what you said or not, and I'm not gonna
worry about that. So Instagram Live or just a live
(20:08):
in general on social media platform gives people the option
to see the real, real version of you, and I
think that actually makes a better connection with your audience
because they don't feel like they're so out of reach.
That's so interesting because I often hear the opposite of that, right,
like people feel like they have to kind of be
all made up in all of these things to be
(20:30):
on I G. Live. But I guess when you've been
on TV, then like I G. Live is almost like, okay,
well life, I definitely can do this because I've been
in front of like twenty cameras waking up you so
oh girl. I had my bonnet on. It was days
that I didn't have makeup, and I was looking at
myself and I was just like, oh, why do I
look like that? But at the end of the day,
nobody even cared. Like I saw one comment about my
(20:52):
appearance not being up to par I was just saying
that I had, like, um, a muffin top and and
it was like, Okay, I don't care. Like my body
is my body and I'm not changing it for anybody else.
So that's that. But that was the only comment. And
when I watched the show, I was like, oh my god,
I need makeup. Why was I sitting there in my bonnet,
(21:12):
Like what was I doing? Not one person said anything
about that, And it's so funny because you know, I
was worried about that, and I'm watching myself criticizing and
judging myself, and everybody still hit me with the girl
you sort of look after look like you're so pretty
and giving me just like the most nicest feedback ever. Um.
So it's just so funny because we judge ourselves the
(21:33):
hardest and people don't care about that like they want.
Because I think that that was very real, Like how
many times are we just like sitting around on our
solfa in our bond is right, Like you were strategizing
trying to win a game. You didn't have to be
in full glam all the time exactly, And people just
want to connect to you, you know, like the more
real you are, the bigger the connection they're gonna have
with you. More from my conversation with the Lisa right
(21:57):
after the break, So you actually discovered a second pregnancy
while you were on the Circle. Can you say more
of that and how that maybe impacted your experience on
(22:18):
the show. Yeah, so yeah, I found out while I
was filming, and I just I didn't want to think
about it because I didn't want to mess up my game.
Like when I say I was fully invested in trying
to win this game. I'm very competitive, so, like my
heart wanted to stay in the game no matter what.
And it's not like I was gonna be able to
(22:39):
do anything. It's not like I was gonna be able
to have like this long drawn out conversation with Trevor,
my family or anything. I believe that the producers would
have let me call my husband, but I chose not to.
I just held that in and tried to keep on
going with the game and push that to the back
of my head. Although it's very hard to do. It
(22:59):
just really amplify the fact that, girl, you need to
win because now it's not only one child that you're
you know, trying to win for and build this beautiful
life for. You know, it's too So it definitely amped
up my game and my competition, and you see, like
(23:20):
towards it, and I had came up with the whole
trifacor plan and I was just like, no, we have
to do something because we cannot fall to the back
burner on this. Yeah, in some ways, it sounds like
it really motivated you to like become even more strategic.
My whole game plan throughout the entire show was to
not be seen as a threat and not be seen
as a weak player, Like you want people to like
(23:41):
you enough so that you can write it out and
make it to the end. They trust you that they're
going to keep you there because they believe that you're
going to keep them safe and as well, they also
think that you're not going to be able to beat them.
So that was my game plan. But then when it
comes towards the end, it's like, hold up, now you
have to step it up and try to figure out
(24:02):
who will actually beat you or could beat you, and
what can you do to take it home. Yeah, And
I think especially like finding out that I was pregnant,
therapy was like okay, you have to do something now,
Like you can't just skate through this because you're not
gonna win. M h. Yeah. There seems like there's just
so much strategy involved on multiple levels because there is
(24:25):
the whole like okay, how do you manage the relationships,
but you're also thinking about how other people are going
to rank others when it's time for the ratings at
the you know, end of each episode. Absolutely, and it
towards the end, I mean, because we don't get to
see people, and we don't get to have super long,
drawn out conversations, and we actually don't really get to
(24:46):
talk about strategy in detail. You know, like we can say, hey,
we're having our alliance, like protect me, I'll protect you,
we'll go to the end. You can say things like that,
but you know, obviously you're not gonna say, oh, I'm
gonna rach you number one, or I'm gonna rate this
person last, and like you can't go into detail like that,
so you never really know who has your back and
(25:07):
who doesn't have your back. You never really know who's
playing from the heart, who's playing a strategic game. Like
in the end, you see Courtney, he's like, listen, I'm
trying to win. So my biggest threats my best friend,
you know what I mean. Like you would never think
that he was going to do that, but then you
have River over here, like nope, I'm gonna play with
my heart and my best friend is gonna be number one.
It's like you just don't know. It's so crazy, so
(25:30):
many different aspects to a game like this and the
strategy behind it, because you don't know if your strategy
is working or if it's not working for sure, I
thought the drifactor was gonna work, and as I come
up with a new one. So you know, your baby
has been a huge part of like everything, even when
(25:51):
you were pretending to be your husband, your daughter was
at the forefront. And now your second child, and you've
been doing a lot of documenting your motherhood experience. Can
you say more about like why that is so important
to you and would impact you think it might have
on other parents. Absolutely, I think it's very important for
me to share my experience because people all have different experiences,
(26:13):
but there are very similar experiences and and people need
somebody that they can relate to and know that they're
not alone in certain things, like for example, right now,
I'm going through a lot of pelvic pain. This pregnancy.
The end part is very difficult for me, and the
fact that I'm able to talk to the world about
(26:33):
it and it helps me as well. I'm learning as well.
People come back to me with comm It's like, oh girl,
maybe you should do this. This helped me, this, This
didn't work for me, Try this, you know. So not
only am I sharing my tips and my tricks and
letting people know like this is real, You're not alone.
In this I'm also getting the same feedback. I love
(26:53):
the fact that social media allows us to do that,
but it's it's just very important. I think, like you
just never know who needs a bit of encouragement, advice
or motivation, and especially being a mom, especially being a
black mom, especially, you know, there's just so many different
aspects of especially being a wife, especially having a toddler
already it's just a second pregnancy or whatever the case
(27:16):
may be. There's people that can relate to you on
different levels, and you never know what level that is
and how you're helping somebody. Yeah, I mean us sharing
our stories is bound to make somebody else feel like
they're not so alone exactly exactly. I love it. I
love it. So what suggestions would you have for somebody
who might be contemplating applying for a season three of
(27:38):
The Circle? My suggestion is to have a game plan
and just know that it's going to change. Yeah, like
when you get you know, if you get on it,
good luck. Just remember that things change and you have
to be able to think really quickly. You just have
(27:59):
to go with the flow, and you can't be dwelling
on one thing because in the blink of an eye,
it's gonna change to something completely different, and then you're
gonna lose out if you are not able to adapt.
Perfect Thank you so much for them, And where can
we find you online? It sounds like you love Instagram.
That's where you spend a lot of your time. Oh girl,
I'm everywhere, you know. I actually I feel like I
(28:22):
feel like I'm everywhere. It's actually a little bit overwhelming.
I'm not used to having um such a big platform,
but I am on Instagram quite often. I do a
lot on Instagram, So with your handle there, my handle
is at least a unique. L E. E s a
Unique and I also have the family page on there
at it's the Saints, and I'm on YouTube. I do
(28:45):
find a lot of connections with people and actually friends
off of people who watch my YouTube videos. So my
YouTube channel is the same thing, Lisa Unique. L E
s a Unique and we have a family channel with
the Saints family as well. I'm also on TikTok. I'm
also on Twitter. Everything is basically least unique. If you
look that up you'll find me perfect. Well, Thank you
(29:08):
so much, just spinning sometimes today with us At least
I really appreciate it. Oh, I appreciate it was so
much fun. I'm so glad A Lisa was able to
join us today. To stay connected to her and learn
more about her work, visit the show notes at Therapy
for Black Girls dot Com slash Session to thirteen, and
don't forget to text two of your girls and tell
(29:29):
them to check out the episode as well. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to
check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls
dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue
digging into this topic or just be in community with
other sisters, come on over and join us in the
Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet design
just for black women. You can join us at community
(29:51):
dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank you all
so much for joining me again this week. I look
forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Take it care, bl
MHA. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a
weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the
small decisions we can make to become the best possible
(00:22):
versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope
you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it
(00:43):
is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
for joining me for session to the Therapy for a
Black Girls podcast. Go get right into the episode after
(01:03):
a quick word from our sponsors. Y'all know that I
am a huge reality TV fan and one of my
favorite newer shows is The Circle on Netflix. The Circle
is a game show where the contestants all move into
(01:25):
the same apartment building, but have no interaction with one
another outside of a social media like app called The Circle.
So you can enter the game as yourself or as
someone else a k a. A catfish. The other players
only know who you are based on the pictures you
share in your circle profile, and each week the contestants
rank one another to decide who will be at the
(01:47):
top known as the Influencers, and whoever is at the
bottom must leave the circle. So the whole game is
a game of strategizing to try to be the last
one left in the circle to win the cash prize.
Season one of the show premier to in season two
just wrapped up at me and they added lots of
twist and turns this season. And as I watched the season,
(02:07):
I was of course paying attention to the sisters in
the game and the choices they were making and how
other players were responding to them, and thinking a lot
about what kind of strategy might I employ if I
were to be on a show like this, And of
course I had a ton of questions. So here today
to talk about her strategies for the game is season
two winner The Lisa st a God. The Lisa is
(02:30):
the founder of two successful online businesses, The Unique Shop
in the Goodie Box Store. She's also working on a
TV show based around her family and is currently writing
a series of children's books. The Lisa is passionate about
building platforms that shine light on uplifting black families and
creating platforms for mothers who are also entrepreneurs. The Lisa
(02:53):
and I chatted about why she chose to go into
the game as her husband Trevor, how she prepared for
the game, her thoughts about the perception of black women
on reality TV, how she kept herself busy in isolation,
and the surprise of finding out she was expecting while filming.
I should know that the Lisa was still pregnant when
(03:13):
we recorded our interview, but their sweet baby, Tori Sky,
has since been born. If there's something that resonates with
you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on
social media using the hashtag TBG in Session. Here's our conversation.
We are so excited to have you here today. To Lisa, Oh,
(03:36):
I'm so excited to be here. I'm honored. Actually, yeah,
So we are all huge fans of the Circle, and
we were hooked on season one, and then it feels
like y'all really came in hot, yeah in this second season, right,
and I'm guessing you know some benefit of like having
watched the first season, but it really feels like people
came in with their strategies and like how they were
planning to win this thing exactly. Much like real social media,
(04:00):
you know, this is kind of social media can be curated,
and there are some things that are like shiny and
not reel, and other things are very genuine. And it
really feels like you were able to cultivate some real
connections with people that lasted even after the finale. Can
you say more about, like how you feel like you
managed to do that? Absolutely throughout the entire game, I
was really being myself. It's redundant to constantly say, you know,
(04:22):
I was so genuine, but I really was. But when
you're speaking to other players in the Circle, that's still
the only communication you have with like the outside world,
so everything is amped up times one hundred. So when
you're talking to somebody and you say I made a connection,
you really made that connection and it extended beyond the
game for all of us, I think, honestly, And are
(04:44):
you still in contact with any of the players. I
talked to all the players. I've even communicated with season
one cast. Everybody is great. I have to say that
The Circle is just a different type of reality show,
and the love really does extend outside the show. The support,
the encouragement, like the friendships, Like we all encourage each other,
we promote each other, we chat and gossip and we're
(05:08):
actually friends. I know people probably I don't know if
they don't believe it or it's just taboo, but we
really are and it's really cool. Yeah, that is cool
because you don't always hear that with reality Showcase definitely
not with reality shows. You always hear like the drama
that goes on or like, you know, you can kind
of tell sometimes like people are friending for this show,
(05:30):
you know, like oh, this group of girls or oh
we we're part of this group. And it's like, but
we don't see you hanging out like outside the show.
I don't get to be there because a lot of
them are in l A. But there's a lot of
pictures of us hanging out. You know. We constantly on
Instagram live, but constantly our video chat, texting each other,
face timing each other. It's true connections for real m.
(05:52):
So I would love to hear more just about your
strategy for trying to win the game, which of course
you ultimately were successful at. So can you tell us
more about your decision to play as your husband Trevor?
Was that always the plan? So I'm a social butterfly,
Like I'm the most social probably out of like almost
all my friends, like maybe one, like we're on the
(06:14):
same level. But I'm extremely social. I get along with
everybody anywhere. Any time I turned a boring time, it's
a fun time. So I wanted to go on as myself.
I was like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna go on as myself.
We're gonna have a great time. People gonna love me.
But as I was thinking about it, you know, only
the first season was out, and I'm just like season two,
which would be the one that I was applying for,
(06:35):
it's definitely going to be much different. They're gonna bring
out all the works, and people are gonna come in
with strategy and wanting to win. So I just feel like,
based off of my own social media, my own dynamic
in life with other people, Like I'm not about drama,
but I somehow gets sucked into it just being a woman,
(06:55):
being a female, it's very difficult. So I'm like, that's
probably not the best move. And then you know, I
was just staring at my husband and I'm like, I
think he would be great, Like people love him, like
even when he does wrong, He's still an angel in
everybody's eyes. I'm just like, oh yeah, I definitely have
to try to go and ask him. And I think
I can get further along being him than being myself,
(07:17):
because for some reason, men aren't sucked into drama as
much as women are. Also because I just feel like
I wanted to portray the single father aspect, especially as
like a black man, because I just think that they
don't get enough credit. Yeah, and I was definitely really
impressed by the binder that y'all came up with. This
seems like before you win in Can you tell us
(07:38):
more about that binder? Oh? Yes, we call it the
Catfish Bible. We since come up with the name hashtag
Catfish Bible. Everything is in there. It's like how to
Be a Man dot com. Like it's crazy. I have
sports in their haircuts, brands of cologns and brands of alcohol,
different brands of cars. Like I was not trying to
(07:58):
get caught up at all at all. I have so
much sports stuff in there. I since forgot it all,
but I still have the book, so maybe I'll go
through that one day. Yeah, what I mean, they did
throw a couple of curveballs this season, because you know
there were the challenges, right, which is how what's his
name got caught up with the makeup challenge? Yeah, it
(08:20):
was very obvious, like I don't think that this was
a woman doing this. Yeah. You know what's funny about
that challenge is people were really onto me, And I
was surprised because I thought it was just like an
arts and craft thing for me. I didn't really see
it as Oh, I didn't makeup so well because I
do make up. I didn't put any eyeshadow, I didn't
(08:43):
really do anything that I would do for my normal face.
And because Jack Emily's makeup was so bad, it kind
of overshadowed my work, which I think helped me out. Obviously,
you just reminded me of him for it. For Jack
for Eman, oh gosh, it was such a bad job,
(09:06):
I know, and he was crying. Oh my god, I
feel so bad. Yeah, And there wasn't anything that you
could have known, right, because I mean, I think, like
you mentioned, you anticipated that some things would be different,
but I don't think anybody anticipated that you would have
these challenges that had the potential to like out you
as being a catfish exactly like you don't know what
to expect when you go in there at all. Like,
(09:27):
even if you try to compare it to season one,
it was completely different, right, right, And how long is
the filming? How long were you all there? I want
to say it was like four to six weeks, probably
somewhere in between. Yeah, a long time. We had a
quarantine two weeks beforehand, and you know, the filming takes
up time, and yeah, it was quite a long time.
(09:47):
And so this was already Wow, COVID nineteen had started,
so you likely had already been kind of quarantining at home.
So what was that like? Kind of having isolation, but
just in a different situation, you know. At for I'm
not gonna lie, it felt peaceful because I was always
with my daughter seven thanks twenty four seven. Even my
(10:08):
husband I think at some point he wanted up going
back to work, so he had a little break and
it was just me and her. Not listen. You know,
I love my little girl and I love her so much.
But at the same time, it was definitely a breath
of fresh air to just be able to like take
a bath by myself and like work out and sleep
whenever I want and not have to worry about like
(10:30):
really anything like taking care of another little human. And
then obviously, of course, I mean I always missed her.
I still missed her, but then it just kind of
started getting like, Okay, I really would like to have
some people interaction now, but the game started. So then
that really helped me to like stay focused in the game,
like to focus almost right, right, So what kinds of
(10:52):
tools did you use to kind of, you know, cope
with being isolated. We had a lot of downtime, but
we also did not have a lot of downtime. I
don't know how to make that makes sense, but whenever
you're filming something, it's it's a lot of like get
ready and weight type of thing. The filming process takes
a while itself. So any downtime that I had, like
(11:14):
I was really like just making sure my makeup was cute,
my wigs were cute, and I had them sitting on
my head properly. You know, I was doing puzzles, but
a lot of times I was literally staring at the
TV like, Okay, who's out to get me? Who do
I need to be worried about? Who's really my friend?
Who cannot really trust? Who's loyal to me? Like I
was just really focused on the game. Like I mean
(11:35):
when I say I came in to really win and
try my hardest, that's exactly what I came to do.
M Yeah, that became very clear, very quickly. So you
already mentioned that in being observant of season one and
knowing like that they would likely up the anti and
season two, and thinking about like how women are often
perceiving I'd like to go a little deeper in thinking
(11:57):
about black women, particularly the perception, you know, because we
saw last season Karen, who was a plus size black
woman into the game as Mercedes, who was a bisexual
Black woman but had more kind of conventionally attractive features.
And I'm wondering if any of that kind of played
into your mind about like how black women might be
perceived in the circle. I'm a black woman, so if
(12:19):
I would have came in as myself, that's one of
the main reasons why I didn't want to, because, you know,
being a black woman, like, it's so many stigmas around it.
If you say something that's a little bit too honest,
you can be considered aggressive. But then if you're sitting
there crying or you know, you just let out some emotion.
It's Oh, they're too emotional. It's like you kind of
(12:39):
can't win just as a black woman in general. And
I just would have seen even bigger challenges coming in
as myself. They would have looked at my pictures and
would be like, oh, she stuck up, like just on
my Instagram, Oh you look like you know, you have
your restling bitch face all the time. And I'm like,
I actually smile all the time. But Okay. People have
(13:01):
certain statements on being a black woman, and I just
I didn't want to worry too much about that. I
wanted to really just like stay true to the game
and stay focused on the game and not have to
worry about constantly like defending myself as a black woman
for sure. Yeah, I mean I speaking to some of
what you're sharing. We saw some of that, I think
(13:23):
with Terrelisia this season, right, So this whole thing with
her in Savannah, I think kind of got wildly blown
out of proportion. Absolutely, that whole situation insanely blown out
of proportion. And it's like, how far are we after
the show and people are still constantly, Oh, I'm seam
tar Relisha, I'm team Savannah, you know, ter Relisha is
such a sweetheart. It's so funny, like she's so sweet.
(13:45):
I mean, they're both sweet. I love them both. But
I think that because tar Relisha is a black woman,
black people in general, I want to say, like, I
just feel like black women are held to a different
standard than other races, and for her, she was looked
at as being quote unquote aggressive, even though I don't
(14:07):
necessary thing she was. She just looked at completely different
than Savannah was looked at. I get this right, because
you know, I know that usually when like it's us
in one other black women in the space, like there
is a kinship that we feel like this wanting to connect,
and it seems like you were trying really hard to
do that with kid without like letting her know that
you were also another black woman. Absolutely, when I got
(14:31):
the chance to finally talk to Terali Sha and Cat,
I spoke to both of them at the same time.
That's why I was like, you know what, let's bring
our beautiful black queens together, because I know that really
should been through a lot, and I know that that
was hard on her. You know, we only saw what
we saw on our side, But I can't imagine especially
like being on TV like that would have been just
(14:52):
very difficult for her to go through and process. And
then even after the fact, the backlash that she was
going to get. But I wanted to give her a
fair chance, and yeah, I was trying to connect with
how can I let them know, like, girl, I got
your back because after because I'm one of you without
saying I'm one of your right, Yeah, so I had
to pull out the works and bring my daughter into it.
(15:12):
Um yeah, but definitely, and you can tell that we
definitely connected, all of us. It's really is actually one
of the people that I speak to the most. Um
and Cat you can tell. Even she said it on
the show. She's like, You're one of the people that
I had the most natural connection with. So she was
talking to Charber, but you know, you were talking to
me as another black woman, you know, like you felt
(15:33):
that natural connection because we're the same. Yeah. Yeah, And
it does feel like you were doing a masterful job.
I think of like thinking on your feet really quickly
and kind of translating between yourself and Trevor, like still
making it believable that it was coming from a guy.
Thank you. It was a little bit difficult but yeah,
we got through it more from my conversation with the
(15:54):
Lisa right after the break, So I am curious just
to hear more about like how the whole interaction is
when you are you know, there's so much you're interpreting
only based on like texts and pictures. Do you feel
(16:16):
like you were able to kind of feel the energy
behind the words that people were sharing. Well, that's why
it takes so long to have these conversations, because when
you read something, you know, you interpret it and you're
reading it out loud and you're trying to understand what
the other person is saying, and then you have to
now respond and you have to make it in a
(16:36):
way that they can understand and interpret what you're saying
the way you want them to receive it. Um. So
it was so difficult because I was there thinking like, Okay,
if I say it this way, it sounds more feminine.
But then if I say it this way, it sounds
like I'm trying too hard. It was very confusing and
very difficult, and there were so many times I was like,
(16:57):
dang man. If I was myself, I could just be
like yeah, girl, yes, just like tell me to see
like it's just so easy when you're going at yourself.
And that's what I'm saying, Like, I don't know why
people hate catfish is, but we don't get enough credit, Okay,
Like we have to go in from jump and like
it's just so difficult from the beginning, and then you
(17:18):
have these challenges that are like out to get you.
I don't care what anybody says, they're out to get us.
Like we have it very difficult. I mean when you
come prepared, okay, you can do anything you put your
mind to. Yeah, well you definitely weren't prepared. That's thank you.
So between your large social media following and your experience
(17:39):
on The Circle, what kinds of things do you think
you've learned about perception and popularity. I feel like I've
kind of always felt this way. I'm not a person
that really judges other people, so I am hoping to
basically change the minds of other people. This is why
The Circle is such a great show, because I think
(17:59):
it's um a place where people can see how and
why others are judged based off their social media personal personality.
But then in the background, you know they're this completely
different person and it's just like you can't really judge
a book by its cover, and that's like the oldest
thing ever, Like, you can't judge a book by its cover,
(18:20):
and even I'm guilty of it at times, you know,
Like there was times in the Circle I was judging
other people and I'm like, Okay, Jack, definitely, I mean
I knew Jack was a guy, and I was right,
but still, you know, still, and I was judging with Courtney.
I'm like, oh, Courtney was shady and he was doing
this and I didn't know like the backstory behind it.
So I think, you know, that's something I'm still learning.
(18:42):
But you know, I tried my best not to judge
other people based off their social media and I'm hoping
that that's one thing that a lot of people learned
from the circle, learned from myself, and just like being
able to get to know me more as a person
as opposed to just what you see on my profile.
So are there other ways that being in the circle
(19:02):
has changed your approach to like your own social media platforms.
I'm definitely going on Instagram Live now, and I do
love that feature, like just being able to go live
on any platform in general, because they get to see
the real, real version of me, and I used to
always be terrified of it. So I think the circle
really helped me with my own confidence and like building
(19:22):
my own self esteem and encouraging and motivating myself because
nobody was there to do that for me. Usually I
have Trevor to do that, and he wasn't there. But
in general, like just on social media for sure, because
I would never go on any type of life, it
would always have to be recorded. I always have to
use a filter. I always have to make sure I'm
looking good, I'm posting the best picture. I hope to
(19:44):
make sure, like you know, my stomach is held in,
my booty looks good, all of that stuff. And now
it's just like, you know what, You're either gonna love
me or hate me. That's up to you to decide,
and there's nothing that I can do about it, Like
I can't somebody to like me. So you're either gonna
like what you said or not, and I'm not gonna
worry about that. So Instagram Live or just a live
(20:08):
in general on social media platform gives people the option
to see the real, real version of you, and I
think that actually makes a better connection with your audience
because they don't feel like they're so out of reach.
That's so interesting because I often hear the opposite of that, right,
like people feel like they have to kind of be
all made up in all of these things to be
(20:30):
on I G. Live. But I guess when you've been
on TV, then like I G. Live is almost like, okay,
well life, I definitely can do this because I've been
in front of like twenty cameras waking up you so
oh girl. I had my bonnet on. It was days
that I didn't have makeup, and I was looking at
myself and I was just like, oh, why do I
look like that? But at the end of the day,
nobody even cared. Like I saw one comment about my
(20:52):
appearance not being up to par I was just saying
that I had, like, um, a muffin top and and
it was like, Okay, I don't care. Like my body
is my body and I'm not changing it for anybody else.
So that's that. But that was the only comment. And
when I watched the show, I was like, oh my god,
I need makeup. Why was I sitting there in my bonnet,
(21:12):
Like what was I doing? Not one person said anything
about that, And it's so funny because you know, I
was worried about that, and I'm watching myself criticizing and
judging myself, and everybody still hit me with the girl
you sort of look after look like you're so pretty
and giving me just like the most nicest feedback ever. Um.
So it's just so funny because we judge ourselves the
(21:33):
hardest and people don't care about that like they want.
Because I think that that was very real, Like how
many times are we just like sitting around on our
solfa in our bond is right, Like you were strategizing
trying to win a game. You didn't have to be
in full glam all the time exactly, And people just
want to connect to you, you know, like the more
real you are, the bigger the connection they're gonna have
with you. More from my conversation with the Lisa right
(21:57):
after the break, So you actually discovered a second pregnancy
while you were on the Circle. Can you say more
of that and how that maybe impacted your experience on
(22:18):
the show. Yeah, so yeah, I found out while I
was filming, and I just I didn't want to think
about it because I didn't want to mess up my game.
Like when I say I was fully invested in trying
to win this game. I'm very competitive, so, like my
heart wanted to stay in the game no matter what.
And it's not like I was gonna be able to
(22:39):
do anything. It's not like I was gonna be able
to have like this long drawn out conversation with Trevor,
my family or anything. I believe that the producers would
have let me call my husband, but I chose not to.
I just held that in and tried to keep on
going with the game and push that to the back
of my head. Although it's very hard to do. It
(22:59):
just really amplify the fact that, girl, you need to
win because now it's not only one child that you're
you know, trying to win for and build this beautiful
life for. You know, it's too So it definitely amped
up my game and my competition, and you see, like
(23:20):
towards it, and I had came up with the whole
trifacor plan and I was just like, no, we have
to do something because we cannot fall to the back
burner on this. Yeah, in some ways, it sounds like
it really motivated you to like become even more strategic.
My whole game plan throughout the entire show was to
not be seen as a threat and not be seen
as a weak player, Like you want people to like
(23:41):
you enough so that you can write it out and
make it to the end. They trust you that they're
going to keep you there because they believe that you're
going to keep them safe and as well, they also
think that you're not going to be able to beat them.
So that was my game plan. But then when it
comes towards the end, it's like, hold up, now you
have to step it up and try to figure out
(24:02):
who will actually beat you or could beat you, and
what can you do to take it home. Yeah, And
I think especially like finding out that I was pregnant,
therapy was like okay, you have to do something now,
Like you can't just skate through this because you're not
gonna win. M h. Yeah. There seems like there's just
so much strategy involved on multiple levels because there is
(24:25):
the whole like okay, how do you manage the relationships,
but you're also thinking about how other people are going
to rank others when it's time for the ratings at
the you know, end of each episode. Absolutely, and it
towards the end, I mean, because we don't get to
see people, and we don't get to have super long,
drawn out conversations, and we actually don't really get to
(24:46):
talk about strategy in detail. You know, like we can say, hey,
we're having our alliance, like protect me, I'll protect you,
we'll go to the end. You can say things like that,
but you know, obviously you're not gonna say, oh, I'm
gonna rach you number one, or I'm gonna rate this
person last, and like you can't go into detail like that,
so you never really know who has your back and
(25:07):
who doesn't have your back. You never really know who's
playing from the heart, who's playing a strategic game. Like
in the end, you see Courtney, he's like, listen, I'm
trying to win. So my biggest threats my best friend,
you know what I mean. Like you would never think
that he was going to do that, but then you
have River over here, like nope, I'm gonna play with
my heart and my best friend is gonna be number one.
It's like you just don't know. It's so crazy, so
(25:30):
many different aspects to a game like this and the
strategy behind it, because you don't know if your strategy
is working or if it's not working for sure, I
thought the drifactor was gonna work, and as I come
up with a new one. So you know, your baby
has been a huge part of like everything, even when
(25:51):
you were pretending to be your husband, your daughter was
at the forefront. And now your second child, and you've
been doing a lot of documenting your motherhood experience. Can
you say more about like why that is so important
to you and would impact you think it might have
on other parents. Absolutely, I think it's very important for
me to share my experience because people all have different experiences,
(26:13):
but there are very similar experiences and and people need
somebody that they can relate to and know that they're
not alone in certain things, like for example, right now,
I'm going through a lot of pelvic pain. This pregnancy.
The end part is very difficult for me, and the
fact that I'm able to talk to the world about
(26:33):
it and it helps me as well. I'm learning as well.
People come back to me with comm It's like, oh girl,
maybe you should do this. This helped me, this, This
didn't work for me, Try this, you know. So not
only am I sharing my tips and my tricks and
letting people know like this is real, You're not alone.
In this I'm also getting the same feedback. I love
(26:53):
the fact that social media allows us to do that,
but it's it's just very important. I think, like you
just never know who needs a bit of encouragement, advice
or motivation, and especially being a mom, especially being a
black mom, especially, you know, there's just so many different
aspects of especially being a wife, especially having a toddler
already it's just a second pregnancy or whatever the case
(27:16):
may be. There's people that can relate to you on
different levels, and you never know what level that is
and how you're helping somebody. Yeah, I mean us sharing
our stories is bound to make somebody else feel like
they're not so alone exactly exactly. I love it. I
love it. So what suggestions would you have for somebody
who might be contemplating applying for a season three of
(27:38):
The Circle? My suggestion is to have a game plan
and just know that it's going to change. Yeah, like
when you get you know, if you get on it,
good luck. Just remember that things change and you have
to be able to think really quickly. You just have
(27:59):
to go with the flow, and you can't be dwelling
on one thing because in the blink of an eye,
it's gonna change to something completely different, and then you're
gonna lose out if you are not able to adapt.
Perfect Thank you so much for them, And where can
we find you online? It sounds like you love Instagram.
That's where you spend a lot of your time. Oh girl,
I'm everywhere, you know. I actually I feel like I
(28:22):
feel like I'm everywhere. It's actually a little bit overwhelming.
I'm not used to having um such a big platform,
but I am on Instagram quite often. I do a
lot on Instagram, So with your handle there, my handle
is at least a unique. L E. E s a
Unique and I also have the family page on there
at it's the Saints, and I'm on YouTube. I do
(28:45):
find a lot of connections with people and actually friends
off of people who watch my YouTube videos. So my
YouTube channel is the same thing, Lisa Unique. L E
s a Unique and we have a family channel with
the Saints family as well. I'm also on TikTok. I'm
also on Twitter. Everything is basically least unique. If you
look that up you'll find me perfect. Well, Thank you
(29:08):
so much, just spinning sometimes today with us At least
I really appreciate it. Oh, I appreciate it was so
much fun. I'm so glad A Lisa was able to
join us today. To stay connected to her and learn
more about her work, visit the show notes at Therapy
for Black Girls dot Com slash Session to thirteen, and
don't forget to text two of your girls and tell
(29:29):
them to check out the episode as well. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to
check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls
dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue
digging into this topic or just be in community with
other sisters, come on over and join us in the
Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet design
just for black women. You can join us at community
(29:51):
dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank you all
so much for joining me again this week. I look
forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Take it care, bl
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