July 21, 2021 • 39 mins
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
In Session 60 of the podcast, Dr. Donna Oriowo, joined us to discuss colorism ,texturism, and how we could begin to dismantle these things in our lives and in our relationships. As a follow up to that conversation and to broaden it, today we're joined by Dr. Yaba Blay. Dr. Blay and I further discussed the system of white supremacy, skin color politics, and the role of the media in shaping our ideas about who we are.
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Twitter: @YabaBlay
IG: @YabaBlay
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
M h. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,
a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all
the small decisions we can make to become the best
(00:21):
possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard
and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more
information or to find a therapist in your area, visit
our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While
I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,
(00:42):
it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship
with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so
much for joining me for Session to seventeen of the
Therapy be for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get into the
episode right after a word from our sponsors. Concession sixty
(01:16):
of the podcast, Dr Donna oriole Will, author of Cocoa
Butter and Hair Grease, joined us to discuss colorism, texturism,
and how we could begin to dismantle these things in
our lives and in our relationships. Here's a clip from
that conversation. And what do you think we can do, Donna,
(01:37):
as a community to begin or continue to change the
conversation around like light skin and pretty hair so to speak,
being the only things that are deemed attractive. What you
said is so true. We definitely started. So he'sa raised
and secure shows us a different spectrum of beauty. The
black panther, of course, showed a completely different spectrum of beauty.
(02:02):
But some of that is what we are gonna do
for ourselves as individuals as well as how we're going
to relate to one another. So number one, you know,
like this judgment of someone's character based on their hair
has got to stop, because what often is happening is
someone is seeing someone with light skin and this you know,
the silkier hair, and they're saying, oh, well, they're stuck up.
(02:24):
I'm like, well, you don't know them. You you haven't
had a conversation with them. You're already assuming a character
trait based on what you see. Just like there's an
assumption that if you are dark skinned with kinky hair
that somehow you are lazy and not willing to take
pride in your appearance. So that judgment of character based
(02:45):
on our hair and our skin tone, that's part of
what needs to sort of stop. We need to, you know,
take stock of why we are feeling and thinking this way.
And figure out whether or not this thought even originated
with us, because what I'm minding is that for most people,
it is not what they think first, it's what someone
else thought that they have adapted as their own. M
(03:08):
m m mmm. And where are those messages primarily coming from? Oh,
it's this is so pervasive in American society that I'm
not even sure. You know, it's one of those like
we'll started press the chicken or the eggs sort of conversations.
So you know, of course we have to talk about slavery.
And to deny slaveries impact on texturism and colorism is
(03:33):
to deny a huge part of black culture here in America.
So they already were grading us based on our skin
tone and our hair texture. Then, so those that were
closer and looks to them, you know, through rape and
all this, all that other stuff that was going on,
they they're like, oh, well, I like this child. I'll
(03:55):
take better care of this child. So lighter skin slaves
with good hair got better privileges. Now that's not to
say that it didn't suck all around, because it did.
It's still slavery, right, but more likely to be freed,
more likely to be taught to read and write, and
(04:15):
more likely to have other privileges like oh, you get
the bathe more often, you get to wash your hair,
your hair more often, like yeah, you. But so like,
we have to understand the impact that slavery has had.
And I know that a lot of people want to say,
but slavery was so long ago, And to that, I say,
let's go back to what they already said in The
(04:35):
Lion King when Rafiki hit symbol on the head, he said,
it's in the past, but it's still hurt. And I
want us to remember that just because something happened in
the past doesn't mean it doesn't still hurt. For clients
that you see, you know, probably eighteen and older, like
what kinds of strategies are you using with them to
(04:56):
help them unpack some of this and to really heal
some of the trauma and has likely come about related
to either hair texture or skin color. I can talk
about that all day, but where I end up starting
number one is some people won't even acknowledge that that
is the problem. So first, you know, like I'm I'm
(05:17):
trying to unpack about why they're there, and they don't
want to bring it up in that way because they
don't want to seem like they're hating on themselves, but
they're hating on themselves. So I try to, number one,
help them to even see that this is an issue
that they have been having and that they like to
talk around that issue. So what I like to do
is really get people from a place that talking around
(05:40):
it to talking about it specifically and being real about
it and knowing and also talking about the origins of
where this came from, because unfortunately, a lot of us
got these hurts from our parents, from our mothers, from
our grandmothers, and we don't want to talk badly about
them because they did so much for us, which and
(06:02):
and you know, I'm not denying what they have done
for us or the great things that they have instilled
within us, but that doesn't mean that we cannot also
acknowledge the bad with the good. So being able to
sort of separate the things that we didn't like from
the things that we did like about growing up and
how those messages continue to show themselves in our everyday life,
(06:26):
So trying to make it trying to make sure that
we are bringing that up and that we're actually talking
about that and really also examining the difference between how
they think about themselves and how they think other people
think about them, sort of getting to that intrinsic versus
(06:46):
extrinsic value. And you know, getting those baseline assessments, I
need to understand where they are and where they're trying
to go and their reasoning for getting there. So what
tips might you have for listeners who might be strung
doing with some of these issues, any like places for
them to start? I would say first, the first step
(07:07):
is always to me acknowledgement. Stop holding onto that pain
and to your silence. It's way past time to speak out.
Talk to your mother, your grandmother, family, your romant to partner,
talk to the people that are in your life that
you love but have hurt you in some way, shape
or form. And also that means you have to talk
(07:29):
to yourself. You have to acknowledge the way you also
hurt you. And just having that first step of acknowledgement
is I mean, really it does wonders in and of itself,
acknowledgement and then thinking of your what next, what do
I want to do next? How do I want to
proceed with this? And of course making sure that we're
(07:50):
not trivializing it. That we're not saying that, you know, hair,
hair texture, and skin tone are frivolous, because they're not.
Just like we wouldn't say that racism is frivolous, we
should not be saying that colorism and texturism, which are
derivatives of racism, are frivolous. It doesn't make any sense
(08:10):
to say that. So as a community, we need to
be able to be willing to have this conversation. And
that means that I like skin divas have to check
themselves and their privilege and listen to our doctor skinned
people and vice versa, because everybody is having some level
of hurt. It's just that some hurt is more systematic
(08:32):
and and sort of follow mimics the way that racism
has been mimicked. So it's like, yes, you can hurt
a white person's feelings, but that doesn't mean that you
you reversed racism them. And it's the same thing with
colorism and texturism. Just understanding power and the power dynamics
and how those things sort of come together. Those are
(08:53):
really gonna help with being able to move forward in
a positive direction where we can all hell collectively as
a follow up to that conversation and to broaden it. Today,
I'm joined by Dr Yabba Blake, who is a scholar, activist,
(09:14):
public speaker, and cultural consultant whose scholarship, work and practice
centers on the lived experiences of Black women and girls,
with a particular focus on identity and body politics and
beauty practices. She is also the author of the award
winning book One Drop Shifting the Lens on Race. Dr
(09:35):
Bla and I further discussed the system of white supremacy,
skin color politics, and the role of the media in
shaping our ideas about who we are. She begins by
sharing her thoughts on the social construct of race and
how it has evolved throughout history. People always say racis
(09:56):
with social construct, but I don't know if they really
understand what seeing when they say that, Right, It's bigger
than a social construct. It is a political one. And
by political I mean that their negotiations of power at play,
and so at its origin, the only purpose for creating
race was to substantiate racism. That doesn't make race a fact. Yeah,
(10:18):
and can you expand on that a little more to
kind of talk about like how you have seen the
conversations on race evolved kind of throughout history. Well, there
weren't conversations, they were laws. It wasn't anything to discuss, right,
And so in creating blackness, for example, and the language,
of course has changed over time. And I'm speaking specifically
(10:41):
about the United States example, though the book talks about
many global examples. In this context, I want to be
clear that I'm talking about how race was constructed in
the United States specifically, but rate has been situated as
binary opposite for the most part, right, And so when
I say that race was constructed to substantiate racism, I'm
(11:02):
saying that whiteness needed a reason to justify its oppression
of blackness. And how do you do that but to
create binary opposites told ends of the spectrum, whiteness comes
to be defined as pure, and that is the language
that they use. And so whatever it is it meant
(11:23):
to be, black was going to be the opposite of that.
If whiteness was all things human and and and civil
and you know, smart and good and valuable, blackness was
going to hope to be everything opposite. And it wasn't
about it being a fact, right, This was based upon fact.
This was based upon a projected definition that needed to
(11:44):
substantiate racism. How else do you justify being able to
literally walk onto any continent that you please and do
whatever you want with the land and the people, if
you don't justify your superiority in this world and so
much of what we have come to believe. Understand no
(12:06):
about race, it's not real. It's constructed once you put
white supremacy on the table. Didn't they buy our bodies
an entitlement? Shouldn't they have access to a culture? This
listen is they're inheritance. So it's not surprising, y'all. It's
(12:28):
a sense of entitlement that comes with the historical inheritance
of whiteness. I watched a newly released interview someone did
James Baldwin back in the day that apparently hadn't gotten
much traction, and so it was just rereleased a couple
of weeks ago, and I watched it, and I love
Baldwin for his bluntness and the way he would look
(12:49):
white people in the eye and tell the truth. And
he's having this conversation with this white woman, who of
course is walking with him through Harlem, and you're looking at,
you know, the black Harlem and and so she's talking
to him, and you know, he's letting white people have it.
He's letting white supremacy as a system have it. And
you know, she's looking a little weary, and he's like, look,
I don't know you personally, but I know you historically.
(13:15):
And that's what I'm saying, not talking about individual white
people necessarily, We're talking about historical political relationships that we
should not be asked to forget. You mentioned, you know,
white supremacy as an institution, right, like, not necessarily individuals,
and that white people are not, of course the only
(13:35):
people who buy into these systems, like it is everywhere,
and so of course even black people sometimes buy into
these systems. And I find that this comes up most
often when we try to have conversations around colorism, you know,
and it feels like it's really hard for people to
grapple with the idea, like like they can see it
on some level, like of course there are differences between
(13:56):
how darker skin sisters are treated versus light skin sist ers,
but it feels like sometimes like skin sisters don't want
to let go of like the pain that they may
have been caused by their skin color and don't understand
like how that isn't also colorism. So language is important,
and so it's why I and this is me how
I approach it. I use colorism to mean one thing.
(14:20):
I use skin color politics to mean another. Skin color
politics will be a broader spectrum that would allow for
us to talk about again negotiations of power that are
based upon skin color, which means it could move in
multiple directions. It allows for us to talk about that
pain you mentioned right that all of us experience when
we talk about colorism. Though we're speaking specifically to a
(14:43):
system that is founded on power differential, it doesn't work
in reverse and the same way that we should not
be saying reverse racism. There is no reverse colorism, right,
And so for me and opening up the space to
talk about skin color politics, I acknowledge that there may
be pain, right. I don't want to dismiss that at all.
(15:03):
Pain that comes with perhaps feeling rejected or being teased
or what have you, for having life scan and even
for being you know, racially ambiguous. I heard a lot
of those stories from many of the folks in my
book In One Drop. But similarly, you know, hesitate to
make the likeness with the likeness is necessary because what
(15:25):
I know is that colorism is an outgrowth of white supremacy,
and we can't talk about colorism without situating it within
the broader context of white supremacy. But in the same
way that we don't want to hear white folks talk
about how they've also been discriminated. Again, it's hard for
us to hear. And that's just me being a human being,
(15:47):
being a black woman, and being honest. And I feel
like we have to create the spaces for us to
be honest about how we feel about these things and
our relationship to these things and our experiences with these
things if we truly want to move forward. And I've
been able to have some beautiful conversations with light skinned
(16:07):
sisters and work through some of this right, because again,
I don't want to negate or dismiss any of your experiences,
but I also want you to not do the same
to mind right, and when you liking what you are
going through to what I am going through, that feels
like a dismissal or an inability or refusal to recognize
(16:30):
it for what it is, right, Because you can talk
about pain, but you don't want to talk about your privilege,
and in the same ways that we continue to ask
white folks to recognize their privilege so that they can
do something about it, so that white folks all about
equality won't be no equality unless you give up some
of your privilege. Yeah, more from my conversation with Dr
(16:53):
Blee after the break. I appreciate you broadening the conversation
to skin color politics, because I think you're right that
a lot of the conversation sometimes gets shut down because
people get caught in the semantics of it, right, Like,
(17:15):
maybe they don't necessarily understand that colorism like doesn't go
both ways, right, and so they want to have space
for their pain too. But if we broaden it to
skin color politics, then there is space for all of
those conversations absolutely. And again for me, let's not have
any of these conversations absent of a contextualization within white supremacy,
(17:35):
because if you understand white supremacy, and if it's our
visual presentation, right, I show you. I'd show you a
vertical hierarchy with whiteness at the top, blackness at the bottom, right,
which means we've got a range of colors in between.
The whiteness is at the top and blackness is at
the bottom, So what happens to everything in between? If
whiteness is situated as superior, that means that each one
(18:00):
of those shades closer and closer to whiteness, closer to
closer the privilege, right, that's the hierarchy of colorism. Those
things aren't separate. So yes, it's not to say that
there's not pain at every step of the hierarchy. And
I hate to compare like I hate when we get
(18:21):
into like oppression Olympics. I'm not saying that you don't
have pain. I'm just saying your pain ain't like mine,
and that's okay. I'm not saying mine. It's more that
it's greater, that it's better. It's not comparative, is what
I'm saying. Yours is yours, mine is mine. But please
do not act like there is not privilege A teach
(18:43):
like seeing Let's not do that. It's as offensive as
it is when we hear white folks acteel like they
don't have privilege. And I'm not saying that you asked
for it. I'm not saying that you've got inline and
signed up for it. When I talk about skin color pology,
because then I can acknowledge that it's not your quote
unquote faults, but it is what it is. So what
(19:07):
are we gonna do about that? Those are the conversations
we have to navigate, as opposed to throwing darts at
one another. And you know we don't like each other
because of this that in the third What a beautiful
conversation it would be. And I can have these conversations
for a light of consistors that I acknowledge. The previdce
that I have I know I didn't ask for, but
I can tell you all the experiences that I have
(19:29):
that I know I've gotten because of my skin color,
and it pisses me off and I don't appreciate it. Right,
But and this is what I think I might be
able to do with it. Why don't you tell me? So?
So what do you think I can do? How can
I I don't want to use a langue of allied
because that's connected to other stuff, right, but like, how
(19:51):
can we be in community around this thing that we
both acknowledge. What are some of the things you think
are necessary for us to be able to create spaces
to have these kinds of conversations. Yeah, I'm not sure
if there's a guide book. I mean, I know what
I've done, and you know, and it's not anything that
I think, you know. I can say that other folks
(20:13):
can necessarily replicate, but there's a lot of work that
comes with it that I don't know we're all ready
to do because it's painful. So this might be connected,
maybe not, but I'll tell it anyway. More recent news.
Let's say this year. You know, from a professional standpoint,
(20:35):
I know a lot of women that do. Black women
do all kinds of work, public work, right and in
a lot of ways because of white supremacy, because we've
been robbed, if you will, over time with particular opportunities. Now,
when we get opportunities, and by we, I mean black
folks in general, we on some Easter ray, I'm looking
for everybody black right in that space. Though it's difficult
(20:58):
because on the one hand, I'm rooting for everybody black.
Why can't I point out that everybody black seems to
be looking up and take all away? Mm hmmm, Because
we're not supposed to say that publicly, right, So we're
supposed to be celebrating blackness, and and and and the
painful thing is when you talk about how do we
get to a space where where we can have these conversations.
(21:19):
You should also know that dark skinned women, dark skinned
people are tired of being the only ones calling it
out mm hmm, in the same way that black people
are tired of being the only ones calling out white supremacy. Yeah,
and it does seem like, you know, you mentioned a
couple of times where you feel like you've had like
successful kinds of conversations like this, And it does seem
like the privacy peace is a large part of it, right,
(21:42):
But I think what often happens is that we try
to have these conversations like on Instagram, on Twitter. That's
not gonna be the space. I mean, let me let
me not say that. I think those spaces can be
uh conduitsy healing, but let's not expect too much. We're
limited characters. And also for me, I checked a lot.
(22:03):
But if there's something going down, we gotta tall Yeah.
These words pyped out, ain't it? We are all Yeah,
we gotta talk it out. Yeah, And it does seem
like I mean, I think you probably heard these jokes
around like secret black girl meetings, and we gotta have
a meeting. We gotta talk about this thing, right, And
(22:23):
in some ways I really wish we have that. I mean,
of course, I think we have that in smaller communities,
right like in our girl chats and and I you know,
but I feel like there would be a lot that
could be accomplished if we could be in a room
so to speak with one another, in a space that
felt private and confidential, for us to really hash out
some of these things absolutely and by safe. You know,
(22:44):
who's ever in conversation? I think it was. I don't
know that it could be just an open conversation for
everyone to contribute necessarily, as much as like who's going
to model how to have these conversations? Like we need models.
We don't have models for that. We know updating myself,
you know school days, we know the beef, we know
(23:07):
team light skinned, team dark skin. We don't have many
models for four sisters of different complexions having I'm the
healing conversations as much as that, conversations that ultimately acknowledge
each of us, each of us even when it's painful,
And to be quite honest, part of you know, my
(23:28):
inspiration and motivation to do the work of one Drip
was to heal my own stuff around colorism as much
as it was connected to black identity. So if I'm
dark skinned growing up in New Orleans, right, and being
rejected and teased and bullied and what have you because
of that dark skin, or feeling like I'm left out
(23:48):
of particular spaces and opportunities because of that dark skins?
And how do I'm not gonna say, defend myself because
it became less about a defense as it was about
an offense, right, And so the one thing you can't
ever take away from me is my blackness. If you
see me, you know what is asking a question at all?
There's no question to be asked. So then what happens
(24:09):
to folks who are racially ambiguous, folks who might identify
as creole? You know you're not? Right? I am? And
so it was a complete turnaround I opening experience to
move to the Northeast and come into contact with folks
who looked like the folks I grew up with, but
who were very clear that they were black. Song Like, well,
how did that work? Right? Because and again listen to
(24:33):
the language. Why would you claim blackness when you don't
have to? Which when you unpack that, yaba, there's a
lot about your relationship to white supremacy cists? Right? Are
you not conforming then, or conceding then too, that superiority
complex Are you not feeding the idea then that whiteness
(24:55):
is superior and therefore all of those shades beneath it
are more superior to your dark any complexion. Why wouldn't
somebody want to be black? Stuff? You're so black and proud,
Why wouldn't somebody want to be black? Right? And so
having all of these conversations and talking to all of
these folks from all kinds of backgrounds who claimed it,
(25:16):
and again in this moment, having done the word, it
almost sounds offensive to say claim their blackness because for
me wasn't a choice, you see what I'm saying. And
so that's my stuff looking at them from where I
am thinking that it's a choice, because I didn't have
that choice, you see what I'm saying. And so I
(25:39):
had to sit on my hands in a lot of
ways and let them lead me because it wasn't about me.
It was about me in terms of a starting point.
But if I really wanted to be open to the healing,
I had to let them lead me. I had to
be present and listen to what they were saying and
not translated. So what's in the book I had, you know,
(26:00):
all interviews with folks in personal interviews that I recorded
and transcribed, and what I wrote as their memoirs are
their words. In terms of the process, once I wrote
the narrative form, I sent it to them for their
approval and we did edits together. Because I wasn't going
to publish anything. I needed them to trust me with
their stories. This was going about me reframing, rewording you know,
(26:23):
this is what you said? Does this work for you?
Because it's your picture that's gonna be next to the
you know. And so it just reminds me of so
many situations just in relationships in general, right that if
you enter a conversation that might be conflicting or conflictual,
I should say, and you enter it as a fight,
(26:46):
or you enter it committed to winning. You are not
open to hearing what the other person has to say
because you're so focused on winning. You're so focused on
on on the comeback and the retort and the dis
this all that you're not the president for the conversation
and you cannot acknowledge their truth. And that's hard for
(27:08):
so many of us who are so used to having
to defend ourselves, who are so used to having to fight,
and then you want to do this in the context
of colorism, right, Yeah, that's a big challenge. So I
also want to extend you know, some grace. Yeah it's
(27:29):
not easy. It's not easy. Yeah, not easy at all.
More from Dr Blaine after the break. I wonder if
there are other questions, because I think that was such
(27:51):
a beautiful question, how you kind of examine like is
this my stuff? Like what's coming up in terms of
my own relation to blackness? Right? But there are other
questions that can offer that might be helpful for people
to kind of examine, you know, how they might be
moving through the world related to their identity. I mean,
I think again those questions of identity in terms of
(28:11):
who I am. I don't have a step by step guide,
but like sitting in that question for a minute, who
am I? And whatever answers you come up with, are
they your answers or the answers that have been given
to you over time. Our parents give us a lot
of answers, Our families give us a lot of answers,
Our friends give us a lot of answers. Are our
(28:34):
intimate partners give us a lot of answers? What is
the work of digging through? What unpacking all that to
get to your answer? You know, I think of the
college students that I taught. I taught in a political
science department in my last position, and an H A
c U. Everybody was gonna be a lawyer. I'm like,
(28:55):
look at all y'all ain't getting in the law school. Okay,
so what else? What else is possible? But it's just
so interesting. You know, I was raised by gunny and parents,
so you have about five options in terms of what
they thought was success, you know, doctor, lawyer, engineer. There's
so many of us who are in school for so
many things that have nothing to do with who we
(29:16):
are and our best selves. And so the challenge I
have found with parenting and what I think is really
beautiful parenting, it's to take yourself out of it. So
much of parenting, and I think this is also connected
to a lot of culture and historical stuff, is that parents,
we can give ourselves. We are part on ourselves, and
(29:37):
we believe that whatever it is our children do or
don't do is a reflection of us and our parenting,
and sometimes they aren't gonna do with you. That's them.
So that if your child doesn't go to college, if
your child doesn't become a quote unquote successful X, Y
and Z, that somehow you think people are looking at
you sideways like you did something wrong. We have the
privilege and the blessing in this moment to you know,
(30:01):
challenge ourselves to find joy in our work or folks saying,
my my ancestors wildest dreams, That's what I mean, take
an advantage of the possibilities they didn't have. Yeah, it's
enough engineers in this world. It's enough attorneys, there's enough
medical doctors. Again, not discouraging anybody if that's truly who
(30:24):
and what you want to be. But let's be honest.
Most of us, when it's time to quote unquote pick
your career in the same way it's time to pick
your major, how many of us actually went through a
process where we were connecting that choice with who we
really are. No, we think about how much money I
can make, right, you know what I'm saying. We're not
(30:46):
thinking of ourselves for real, for real, It's almost like
it's just a concession. What am I willing to do,
and so again, we might have a different conversation a
few years ago, but it's definitely where I am in
this moment, and I like and it's been a beautiful,
like revealing to me. I'm learning so much about myself
(31:06):
now that I work for myself about what I want
and how that might look different next year. And guess
what I'm gonna be all right, right? Right? Yeah, you
know you mentioned how a lot of times these answers
come from our parents and from other people in our family.
But I think, you know, the other thing is that
a lot of these answers sometimes come from media, right,
(31:27):
And so I think, especially as we're thinking about like colorism,
and we you know, think about like how media perpetuates
these ideas about like what blackness looks like, and so
you know, today I think we see shows like Blackish
and Mixed Dish and like there's one look for how
a family is. But then we think about you know,
(31:47):
like Good Times with the Burning Name show, and families
look very different. So I'm wondering what your thoughts about,
Like what prompt is this shift in how black families
look different as it is seen today. I would question
if it's a shift really saying, I mean it's a
shift on surface, but ultimately they still both presentations ultimately
(32:10):
support white supremse. You know, so when you talk about, okay,
there might be a time where we saw predominantly dark
skinned families on TV. What kind of family though? Were
they in the projects? You see what I'm saying. What
about Bernie mac We're not Bernie Mac. No, but a
good times definitely good times saying for that generation right
(32:30):
moving forward? Then okay, let's say the consiny show that
people love so much to the extent that they want
to defend that man. But I'll leave that alone. The
gods we show, you got Cliff and you got Claire.
I always question. I know, yes, there's a diversity in blackness.
I know we come in all shades, but y'all not
come convince me that Denise and what was the older
(32:51):
sister's name. Y'all can't convince me the son during Denise
came from them, from them to people. Sorry, So nominally,
when we looked at mixed dish or we look at blownfish, like,
what I'm saying is those tropes hardly change. Because my
mom is supposed to be beautiful and feminine, yes, what
(33:15):
she looked like every time? Daddy's supposed to be strong,
and the provider, what's he looked like every time? And
then you get the United Nations among the kids. What
strokes haven't changed. We're still projecting similar images, I think. Now, Again,
it's not to say something total, because we do have
different examples, right, Like what am I thinking of? Everybody
(33:36):
hates Christ? You know what I mean? We have different examples,
and that found that show found lots of success. Right,
So again it's not to say in total, but it's
still there. Yeah. So the media is absolutely responsible for
a lot of our stuff because if we are only
relying upon the media to see ourselves, we're getting very
(33:57):
strong messages about not only who we are, but who
we can potentially be. M Yeah, I'm a hard one,
Like I don't want I don't give the media too
much of it incremental you're not getting gold stars. No, No,
definitely give credit where where I see it. But most
of the things that I would celebrate our independent productions.
(34:19):
You know, It's why I loves reproduction, So you know
what I mean, Like much of that had to come
from the ground, swell up, It's not some mainstream right,
So we could talk forever, y'all. But I mean, there's
just so much more I want to talk with you about.
But I know we have to wrap up. But I
do want to get a sense of any resources that
(34:40):
you really enjoy that you think other people who are
interested in like digging a little deeper into this conversation
might also enjoy anything you would share. Oh, you know,
I don't want to go to textbook around necessarily, because
there are lots of books, you know, that talk about
the history of colorism and they things of that nature.
(35:00):
But I'm a visual person and so you know, one
of the projects that I created it's called pretty Period
on Instagram. It's at I am pretty Period. Not to
big up myself, but big up myself. The project is really, uh,
it's a kind of collective response to the backhanded compliment
(35:21):
I've gotten way too many times is all you pretty
for a dark stand girl, which is not a compliment
at all. And the response is no, I'm pretty period.
And so part of the work of the project is
part of the reason why I love Instagram, because it
is a visual platform. I would just encourage people not
just to look at pretty Period in the images that
(35:42):
we share on a daily or coach the website, which
is pretty period dot me, but do some hashtag sirs.
You can hashtag melan in anything, you know, hashtag black
girl anything, and just see the diversity of our beauty,
you know, online because again, we don't have to rely
on the instream anymore, like we are creating new images
(36:04):
of and for ourselves. I think in addition to that,
I also don't want to discourage you from digging into
the history of colorism and black racial identity. It's hard,
you know, when folks ask me about resources, because I
feel like I ended up having to name the same
work over and over again, which is okay, but at
(36:25):
the same time, I think it also speaks kind of
to what we opened the conversation with, like the idea
that many of us aren't trained or guided in terms
of thinking critically. So if it's in a book, it's
real also that the publishing industry controls which books are released,
so then there's nobody is making assessment about which conversations
(36:46):
we get to have and in which direction and for
what audience. And so, yes, there are lots of resources
out there, I'm just not sure that there's anyone that
I would say, this is it if I would have
to say one. And it's not connected to colorism as
much as it's connected to blackness and our identity. It
(37:08):
is a novel of homegoing by your jeosity. You know,
so many people have read it. I I'm obsessed with
this book. I adore it. If I were in the classroom,
I would find a way to teach it. And it
is an amazing book. And what I love about it
is that it offers us the opportunity to connect the
(37:29):
right and to stop seeing ourselves as these individual identities
across the world and recognize that like when people say
we came from the same place, that's like historical facts,
you know. But I love how she tells the story.
So I would definitely encourage folks to read that book again.
(37:50):
Just to be open in any case, not just the
resources that I'm sharing, any resource that anybody shares with
you recognize that you're only going to get from that
resource what you're able to right based upon where you are,
what you're willing to release about yourself in order to
receive what's being shared. So all of that to say,
(38:14):
I don't know, well you shared, you've already shared some
good stuff as well. And where can we keep up
with you and all the incredible work that you're doing.
We already have pretty period. Where else can we find you?
I'm online My website is Yaba blade dot com and
I'm also on social on Instagram and Twitter at Yaba Blade,
(38:36):
so my name will lead you to where i am
on perfect well. We will be sure to include all
of that in the show notes. Thank you so much
for today, Yava, You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
I'm so glad that Dr Blade was able to share
her expertise with us today. To learn more about her
(38:57):
and her work, or to check out the recour is
that she shared, be sure to visit the show notes
at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session to seventeen,
and don't forget to text two of your girls and
tell them to check out the episode as well. If
you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure
to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black
Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to
(39:20):
continue digging into this topic or just be a community
with other sisters, come on over and join us in
the sister circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet
designed just for black women. You can join us at
community dot therapy for black girls dot com. Thank y'all
so much for joining me again this week. I look
forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon.
(39:42):
Take good care.
M h. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,
a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all
the small decisions we can make to become the best
(00:21):
possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard
and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more
information or to find a therapist in your area, visit
our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While
I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,
(00:42):
it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship
with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so
much for joining me for Session to seventeen of the
Therapy be for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get into the
episode right after a word from our sponsors. Concession sixty
(01:16):
of the podcast, Dr Donna oriole Will, author of Cocoa
Butter and Hair Grease, joined us to discuss colorism, texturism,
and how we could begin to dismantle these things in
our lives and in our relationships. Here's a clip from
that conversation. And what do you think we can do, Donna,
(01:37):
as a community to begin or continue to change the
conversation around like light skin and pretty hair so to speak,
being the only things that are deemed attractive. What you
said is so true. We definitely started. So he'sa raised
and secure shows us a different spectrum of beauty. The
black panther, of course, showed a completely different spectrum of beauty.
(02:02):
But some of that is what we are gonna do
for ourselves as individuals as well as how we're going
to relate to one another. So number one, you know,
like this judgment of someone's character based on their hair
has got to stop, because what often is happening is
someone is seeing someone with light skin and this you know,
the silkier hair, and they're saying, oh, well, they're stuck up.
(02:24):
I'm like, well, you don't know them. You you haven't
had a conversation with them. You're already assuming a character
trait based on what you see. Just like there's an
assumption that if you are dark skinned with kinky hair
that somehow you are lazy and not willing to take
pride in your appearance. So that judgment of character based
(02:45):
on our hair and our skin tone, that's part of
what needs to sort of stop. We need to, you know,
take stock of why we are feeling and thinking this way.
And figure out whether or not this thought even originated
with us, because what I'm minding is that for most people,
it is not what they think first, it's what someone
else thought that they have adapted as their own. M
(03:08):
m m mmm. And where are those messages primarily coming from? Oh,
it's this is so pervasive in American society that I'm
not even sure. You know, it's one of those like
we'll started press the chicken or the eggs sort of conversations.
So you know, of course we have to talk about slavery.
And to deny slaveries impact on texturism and colorism is
(03:33):
to deny a huge part of black culture here in America.
So they already were grading us based on our skin
tone and our hair texture. Then, so those that were
closer and looks to them, you know, through rape and
all this, all that other stuff that was going on,
they they're like, oh, well, I like this child. I'll
(03:55):
take better care of this child. So lighter skin slaves
with good hair got better privileges. Now that's not to
say that it didn't suck all around, because it did.
It's still slavery, right, but more likely to be freed,
more likely to be taught to read and write, and
(04:15):
more likely to have other privileges like oh, you get
the bathe more often, you get to wash your hair,
your hair more often, like yeah, you. But so like,
we have to understand the impact that slavery has had.
And I know that a lot of people want to say,
but slavery was so long ago, And to that, I say,
let's go back to what they already said in The
(04:35):
Lion King when Rafiki hit symbol on the head, he said,
it's in the past, but it's still hurt. And I
want us to remember that just because something happened in
the past doesn't mean it doesn't still hurt. For clients
that you see, you know, probably eighteen and older, like
what kinds of strategies are you using with them to
(04:56):
help them unpack some of this and to really heal
some of the trauma and has likely come about related
to either hair texture or skin color. I can talk
about that all day, but where I end up starting
number one is some people won't even acknowledge that that
is the problem. So first, you know, like I'm I'm
(05:17):
trying to unpack about why they're there, and they don't
want to bring it up in that way because they
don't want to seem like they're hating on themselves, but
they're hating on themselves. So I try to, number one,
help them to even see that this is an issue
that they have been having and that they like to
talk around that issue. So what I like to do
is really get people from a place that talking around
(05:40):
it to talking about it specifically and being real about
it and knowing and also talking about the origins of
where this came from, because unfortunately, a lot of us
got these hurts from our parents, from our mothers, from
our grandmothers, and we don't want to talk badly about
them because they did so much for us, which and
(06:02):
and you know, I'm not denying what they have done
for us or the great things that they have instilled
within us, but that doesn't mean that we cannot also
acknowledge the bad with the good. So being able to
sort of separate the things that we didn't like from
the things that we did like about growing up and
how those messages continue to show themselves in our everyday life,
(06:26):
So trying to make it trying to make sure that
we are bringing that up and that we're actually talking
about that and really also examining the difference between how
they think about themselves and how they think other people
think about them, sort of getting to that intrinsic versus
(06:46):
extrinsic value. And you know, getting those baseline assessments, I
need to understand where they are and where they're trying
to go and their reasoning for getting there. So what
tips might you have for listeners who might be strung
doing with some of these issues, any like places for
them to start? I would say first, the first step
(07:07):
is always to me acknowledgement. Stop holding onto that pain
and to your silence. It's way past time to speak out.
Talk to your mother, your grandmother, family, your romant to partner,
talk to the people that are in your life that
you love but have hurt you in some way, shape
or form. And also that means you have to talk
(07:29):
to yourself. You have to acknowledge the way you also
hurt you. And just having that first step of acknowledgement
is I mean, really it does wonders in and of itself,
acknowledgement and then thinking of your what next, what do
I want to do next? How do I want to
proceed with this? And of course making sure that we're
(07:50):
not trivializing it. That we're not saying that, you know, hair,
hair texture, and skin tone are frivolous, because they're not.
Just like we wouldn't say that racism is frivolous, we
should not be saying that colorism and texturism, which are
derivatives of racism, are frivolous. It doesn't make any sense
(08:10):
to say that. So as a community, we need to
be able to be willing to have this conversation. And
that means that I like skin divas have to check
themselves and their privilege and listen to our doctor skinned
people and vice versa, because everybody is having some level
of hurt. It's just that some hurt is more systematic
(08:32):
and and sort of follow mimics the way that racism
has been mimicked. So it's like, yes, you can hurt
a white person's feelings, but that doesn't mean that you
you reversed racism them. And it's the same thing with
colorism and texturism. Just understanding power and the power dynamics
and how those things sort of come together. Those are
(08:53):
really gonna help with being able to move forward in
a positive direction where we can all hell collectively as
a follow up to that conversation and to broaden it. Today,
I'm joined by Dr Yabba Blake, who is a scholar, activist,
(09:14):
public speaker, and cultural consultant whose scholarship, work and practice
centers on the lived experiences of Black women and girls,
with a particular focus on identity and body politics and
beauty practices. She is also the author of the award
winning book One Drop Shifting the Lens on Race. Dr
(09:35):
Bla and I further discussed the system of white supremacy,
skin color politics, and the role of the media in
shaping our ideas about who we are. She begins by
sharing her thoughts on the social construct of race and
how it has evolved throughout history. People always say racis
(09:56):
with social construct, but I don't know if they really
understand what seeing when they say that, Right, It's bigger
than a social construct. It is a political one. And
by political I mean that their negotiations of power at play,
and so at its origin, the only purpose for creating
race was to substantiate racism. That doesn't make race a fact. Yeah,
(10:18):
and can you expand on that a little more to
kind of talk about like how you have seen the
conversations on race evolved kind of throughout history. Well, there
weren't conversations, they were laws. It wasn't anything to discuss, right,
And so in creating blackness, for example, and the language,
of course has changed over time. And I'm speaking specifically
(10:41):
about the United States example, though the book talks about
many global examples. In this context, I want to be
clear that I'm talking about how race was constructed in
the United States specifically, but rate has been situated as
binary opposite for the most part, right, And so when
I say that race was constructed to substantiate racism, I'm
(11:02):
saying that whiteness needed a reason to justify its oppression
of blackness. And how do you do that but to
create binary opposites told ends of the spectrum, whiteness comes
to be defined as pure, and that is the language
that they use. And so whatever it is it meant
(11:23):
to be, black was going to be the opposite of that.
If whiteness was all things human and and and civil
and you know, smart and good and valuable, blackness was
going to hope to be everything opposite. And it wasn't
about it being a fact, right, This was based upon fact.
This was based upon a projected definition that needed to
(11:44):
substantiate racism. How else do you justify being able to
literally walk onto any continent that you please and do
whatever you want with the land and the people, if
you don't justify your superiority in this world and so
much of what we have come to believe. Understand no
(12:06):
about race, it's not real. It's constructed once you put
white supremacy on the table. Didn't they buy our bodies
an entitlement? Shouldn't they have access to a culture? This
listen is they're inheritance. So it's not surprising, y'all. It's
(12:28):
a sense of entitlement that comes with the historical inheritance
of whiteness. I watched a newly released interview someone did
James Baldwin back in the day that apparently hadn't gotten
much traction, and so it was just rereleased a couple
of weeks ago, and I watched it, and I love
Baldwin for his bluntness and the way he would look
(12:49):
white people in the eye and tell the truth. And
he's having this conversation with this white woman, who of
course is walking with him through Harlem, and you're looking at,
you know, the black Harlem and and so she's talking
to him, and you know, he's letting white people have it.
He's letting white supremacy as a system have it. And
you know, she's looking a little weary, and he's like, look,
I don't know you personally, but I know you historically.
(13:15):
And that's what I'm saying, not talking about individual white
people necessarily, We're talking about historical political relationships that we
should not be asked to forget. You mentioned, you know,
white supremacy as an institution, right, like, not necessarily individuals,
and that white people are not, of course the only
(13:35):
people who buy into these systems, like it is everywhere,
and so of course even black people sometimes buy into
these systems. And I find that this comes up most
often when we try to have conversations around colorism, you know,
and it feels like it's really hard for people to
grapple with the idea, like like they can see it
on some level, like of course there are differences between
(13:56):
how darker skin sisters are treated versus light skin sist ers,
but it feels like sometimes like skin sisters don't want
to let go of like the pain that they may
have been caused by their skin color and don't understand
like how that isn't also colorism. So language is important,
and so it's why I and this is me how
I approach it. I use colorism to mean one thing.
(14:20):
I use skin color politics to mean another. Skin color
politics will be a broader spectrum that would allow for
us to talk about again negotiations of power that are
based upon skin color, which means it could move in
multiple directions. It allows for us to talk about that
pain you mentioned right that all of us experience when
we talk about colorism. Though we're speaking specifically to a
(14:43):
system that is founded on power differential, it doesn't work
in reverse and the same way that we should not
be saying reverse racism. There is no reverse colorism, right,
And so for me and opening up the space to
talk about skin color politics, I acknowledge that there may
be pain, right. I don't want to dismiss that at all.
(15:03):
Pain that comes with perhaps feeling rejected or being teased
or what have you, for having life scan and even
for being you know, racially ambiguous. I heard a lot
of those stories from many of the folks in my
book In One Drop. But similarly, you know, hesitate to
make the likeness with the likeness is necessary because what
(15:25):
I know is that colorism is an outgrowth of white supremacy,
and we can't talk about colorism without situating it within
the broader context of white supremacy. But in the same
way that we don't want to hear white folks talk
about how they've also been discriminated. Again, it's hard for
us to hear. And that's just me being a human being,
(15:47):
being a black woman, and being honest. And I feel
like we have to create the spaces for us to
be honest about how we feel about these things and
our relationship to these things and our experiences with these
things if we truly want to move forward. And I've
been able to have some beautiful conversations with light skinned
(16:07):
sisters and work through some of this right, because again,
I don't want to negate or dismiss any of your experiences,
but I also want you to not do the same
to mind right, and when you liking what you are
going through to what I am going through, that feels
like a dismissal or an inability or refusal to recognize
(16:30):
it for what it is, right, Because you can talk
about pain, but you don't want to talk about your privilege,
and in the same ways that we continue to ask
white folks to recognize their privilege so that they can
do something about it, so that white folks all about
equality won't be no equality unless you give up some
of your privilege. Yeah, more from my conversation with Dr
(16:53):
Blee after the break. I appreciate you broadening the conversation
to skin color politics, because I think you're right that
a lot of the conversation sometimes gets shut down because
people get caught in the semantics of it, right, Like,
(17:15):
maybe they don't necessarily understand that colorism like doesn't go
both ways, right, and so they want to have space
for their pain too. But if we broaden it to
skin color politics, then there is space for all of
those conversations absolutely. And again for me, let's not have
any of these conversations absent of a contextualization within white supremacy,
(17:35):
because if you understand white supremacy, and if it's our
visual presentation, right, I show you. I'd show you a
vertical hierarchy with whiteness at the top, blackness at the bottom, right,
which means we've got a range of colors in between.
The whiteness is at the top and blackness is at
the bottom, So what happens to everything in between? If
whiteness is situated as superior, that means that each one
(18:00):
of those shades closer and closer to whiteness, closer to
closer the privilege, right, that's the hierarchy of colorism. Those
things aren't separate. So yes, it's not to say that
there's not pain at every step of the hierarchy. And
I hate to compare like I hate when we get
(18:21):
into like oppression Olympics. I'm not saying that you don't
have pain. I'm just saying your pain ain't like mine,
and that's okay. I'm not saying mine. It's more that
it's greater, that it's better. It's not comparative, is what
I'm saying. Yours is yours, mine is mine. But please
do not act like there is not privilege A teach
(18:43):
like seeing Let's not do that. It's as offensive as
it is when we hear white folks acteel like they
don't have privilege. And I'm not saying that you asked
for it. I'm not saying that you've got inline and
signed up for it. When I talk about skin color pology,
because then I can acknowledge that it's not your quote
unquote faults, but it is what it is. So what
(19:07):
are we gonna do about that? Those are the conversations
we have to navigate, as opposed to throwing darts at
one another. And you know we don't like each other
because of this that in the third What a beautiful
conversation it would be. And I can have these conversations
for a light of consistors that I acknowledge. The previdce
that I have I know I didn't ask for, but
I can tell you all the experiences that I have
(19:29):
that I know I've gotten because of my skin color,
and it pisses me off and I don't appreciate it. Right,
But and this is what I think I might be
able to do with it. Why don't you tell me? So?
So what do you think I can do? How can
I I don't want to use a langue of allied
because that's connected to other stuff, right, but like, how
(19:51):
can we be in community around this thing that we
both acknowledge. What are some of the things you think
are necessary for us to be able to create spaces
to have these kinds of conversations. Yeah, I'm not sure
if there's a guide book. I mean, I know what
I've done, and you know, and it's not anything that
I think, you know. I can say that other folks
(20:13):
can necessarily replicate, but there's a lot of work that
comes with it that I don't know we're all ready
to do because it's painful. So this might be connected,
maybe not, but I'll tell it anyway. More recent news.
Let's say this year. You know, from a professional standpoint,
(20:35):
I know a lot of women that do. Black women
do all kinds of work, public work, right and in
a lot of ways because of white supremacy, because we've
been robbed, if you will, over time with particular opportunities. Now,
when we get opportunities, and by we, I mean black
folks in general, we on some Easter ray, I'm looking
for everybody black right in that space. Though it's difficult
(20:58):
because on the one hand, I'm rooting for everybody black.
Why can't I point out that everybody black seems to
be looking up and take all away? Mm hmmm, Because
we're not supposed to say that publicly, right, So we're
supposed to be celebrating blackness, and and and and the
painful thing is when you talk about how do we
get to a space where where we can have these conversations.
(21:19):
You should also know that dark skinned women, dark skinned
people are tired of being the only ones calling it
out mm hmm, in the same way that black people
are tired of being the only ones calling out white supremacy. Yeah,
and it does seem like, you know, you mentioned a
couple of times where you feel like you've had like
successful kinds of conversations like this, And it does seem
like the privacy peace is a large part of it, right,
(21:42):
But I think what often happens is that we try
to have these conversations like on Instagram, on Twitter. That's
not gonna be the space. I mean, let me let
me not say that. I think those spaces can be
uh conduitsy healing, but let's not expect too much. We're
limited characters. And also for me, I checked a lot.
(22:03):
But if there's something going down, we gotta tall Yeah.
These words pyped out, ain't it? We are all Yeah,
we gotta talk it out. Yeah, And it does seem
like I mean, I think you probably heard these jokes
around like secret black girl meetings, and we gotta have
a meeting. We gotta talk about this thing, right, And
(22:23):
in some ways I really wish we have that. I mean,
of course, I think we have that in smaller communities,
right like in our girl chats and and I you know,
but I feel like there would be a lot that
could be accomplished if we could be in a room
so to speak with one another, in a space that
felt private and confidential, for us to really hash out
some of these things absolutely and by safe. You know,
(22:44):
who's ever in conversation? I think it was. I don't
know that it could be just an open conversation for
everyone to contribute necessarily, as much as like who's going
to model how to have these conversations? Like we need models.
We don't have models for that. We know updating myself,
you know school days, we know the beef, we know
(23:07):
team light skinned, team dark skin. We don't have many
models for four sisters of different complexions having I'm the
healing conversations as much as that, conversations that ultimately acknowledge
each of us, each of us even when it's painful,
And to be quite honest, part of you know, my
(23:28):
inspiration and motivation to do the work of one Drip
was to heal my own stuff around colorism as much
as it was connected to black identity. So if I'm
dark skinned growing up in New Orleans, right, and being
rejected and teased and bullied and what have you because
of that dark skin, or feeling like I'm left out
(23:48):
of particular spaces and opportunities because of that dark skins?
And how do I'm not gonna say, defend myself because
it became less about a defense as it was about
an offense, right, And so the one thing you can't
ever take away from me is my blackness. If you
see me, you know what is asking a question at all?
There's no question to be asked. So then what happens
(24:09):
to folks who are racially ambiguous, folks who might identify
as creole? You know you're not? Right? I am? And
so it was a complete turnaround I opening experience to
move to the Northeast and come into contact with folks
who looked like the folks I grew up with, but
who were very clear that they were black. Song Like, well,
how did that work? Right? Because and again listen to
(24:33):
the language. Why would you claim blackness when you don't
have to? Which when you unpack that, yaba, there's a
lot about your relationship to white supremacy cists? Right? Are
you not conforming then, or conceding then too, that superiority
complex Are you not feeding the idea then that whiteness
(24:55):
is superior and therefore all of those shades beneath it
are more superior to your dark any complexion. Why wouldn't
somebody want to be black? Stuff? You're so black and proud,
Why wouldn't somebody want to be black? Right? And so
having all of these conversations and talking to all of
these folks from all kinds of backgrounds who claimed it,
(25:16):
and again in this moment, having done the word, it
almost sounds offensive to say claim their blackness because for
me wasn't a choice, you see what I'm saying. And
so that's my stuff looking at them from where I
am thinking that it's a choice, because I didn't have
that choice, you see what I'm saying. And so I
(25:39):
had to sit on my hands in a lot of
ways and let them lead me because it wasn't about me.
It was about me in terms of a starting point.
But if I really wanted to be open to the healing,
I had to let them lead me. I had to
be present and listen to what they were saying and
not translated. So what's in the book I had, you know,
(26:00):
all interviews with folks in personal interviews that I recorded
and transcribed, and what I wrote as their memoirs are
their words. In terms of the process, once I wrote
the narrative form, I sent it to them for their
approval and we did edits together. Because I wasn't going
to publish anything. I needed them to trust me with
their stories. This was going about me reframing, rewording you know,
(26:23):
this is what you said? Does this work for you?
Because it's your picture that's gonna be next to the
you know. And so it just reminds me of so
many situations just in relationships in general, right that if
you enter a conversation that might be conflicting or conflictual,
I should say, and you enter it as a fight,
(26:46):
or you enter it committed to winning. You are not
open to hearing what the other person has to say
because you're so focused on winning. You're so focused on
on on the comeback and the retort and the dis
this all that you're not the president for the conversation
and you cannot acknowledge their truth. And that's hard for
(27:08):
so many of us who are so used to having
to defend ourselves, who are so used to having to fight,
and then you want to do this in the context
of colorism, right, Yeah, that's a big challenge. So I
also want to extend you know, some grace. Yeah it's
(27:29):
not easy. It's not easy. Yeah, not easy at all.
More from Dr Blaine after the break. I wonder if
there are other questions, because I think that was such
(27:51):
a beautiful question, how you kind of examine like is
this my stuff? Like what's coming up in terms of
my own relation to blackness? Right? But there are other
questions that can offer that might be helpful for people
to kind of examine, you know, how they might be
moving through the world related to their identity. I mean,
I think again those questions of identity in terms of
(28:11):
who I am. I don't have a step by step guide,
but like sitting in that question for a minute, who
am I? And whatever answers you come up with, are
they your answers or the answers that have been given
to you over time. Our parents give us a lot
of answers, Our families give us a lot of answers,
Our friends give us a lot of answers. Are our
(28:34):
intimate partners give us a lot of answers? What is
the work of digging through? What unpacking all that to
get to your answer? You know, I think of the
college students that I taught. I taught in a political
science department in my last position, and an H A
c U. Everybody was gonna be a lawyer. I'm like,
(28:55):
look at all y'all ain't getting in the law school. Okay,
so what else? What else is possible? But it's just
so interesting. You know, I was raised by gunny and parents,
so you have about five options in terms of what
they thought was success, you know, doctor, lawyer, engineer. There's
so many of us who are in school for so
many things that have nothing to do with who we
(29:16):
are and our best selves. And so the challenge I
have found with parenting and what I think is really
beautiful parenting, it's to take yourself out of it. So
much of parenting, and I think this is also connected
to a lot of culture and historical stuff, is that parents,
we can give ourselves. We are part on ourselves, and
(29:37):
we believe that whatever it is our children do or
don't do is a reflection of us and our parenting,
and sometimes they aren't gonna do with you. That's them.
So that if your child doesn't go to college, if
your child doesn't become a quote unquote successful X, Y
and Z, that somehow you think people are looking at
you sideways like you did something wrong. We have the
privilege and the blessing in this moment to you know,
(30:01):
challenge ourselves to find joy in our work or folks saying,
my my ancestors wildest dreams, That's what I mean, take
an advantage of the possibilities they didn't have. Yeah, it's
enough engineers in this world. It's enough attorneys, there's enough
medical doctors. Again, not discouraging anybody if that's truly who
(30:24):
and what you want to be. But let's be honest.
Most of us, when it's time to quote unquote pick
your career in the same way it's time to pick
your major, how many of us actually went through a
process where we were connecting that choice with who we
really are. No, we think about how much money I
can make, right, you know what I'm saying. We're not
(30:46):
thinking of ourselves for real, for real, It's almost like
it's just a concession. What am I willing to do,
and so again, we might have a different conversation a
few years ago, but it's definitely where I am in
this moment, and I like and it's been a beautiful,
like revealing to me. I'm learning so much about myself
(31:06):
now that I work for myself about what I want
and how that might look different next year. And guess
what I'm gonna be all right, right? Right? Yeah, you
know you mentioned how a lot of times these answers
come from our parents and from other people in our family.
But I think, you know, the other thing is that
a lot of these answers sometimes come from media, right,
(31:27):
And so I think, especially as we're thinking about like colorism,
and we you know, think about like how media perpetuates
these ideas about like what blackness looks like, and so
you know, today I think we see shows like Blackish
and Mixed Dish and like there's one look for how
a family is. But then we think about you know,
(31:47):
like Good Times with the Burning Name show, and families
look very different. So I'm wondering what your thoughts about,
Like what prompt is this shift in how black families
look different as it is seen today. I would question
if it's a shift really saying, I mean it's a
shift on surface, but ultimately they still both presentations ultimately
(32:10):
support white supremse. You know, so when you talk about, okay,
there might be a time where we saw predominantly dark
skinned families on TV. What kind of family though? Were
they in the projects? You see what I'm saying. What
about Bernie mac We're not Bernie Mac. No, but a
good times definitely good times saying for that generation right
(32:30):
moving forward? Then okay, let's say the consiny show that
people love so much to the extent that they want
to defend that man. But I'll leave that alone. The
gods we show, you got Cliff and you got Claire.
I always question. I know, yes, there's a diversity in blackness.
I know we come in all shades, but y'all not
come convince me that Denise and what was the older
(32:51):
sister's name. Y'all can't convince me the son during Denise
came from them, from them to people. Sorry, So nominally,
when we looked at mixed dish or we look at blownfish, like,
what I'm saying is those tropes hardly change. Because my
mom is supposed to be beautiful and feminine, yes, what
(33:15):
she looked like every time? Daddy's supposed to be strong,
and the provider, what's he looked like every time? And
then you get the United Nations among the kids. What
strokes haven't changed. We're still projecting similar images, I think. Now, Again,
it's not to say something total, because we do have
different examples, right, Like what am I thinking of? Everybody
(33:36):
hates Christ? You know what I mean? We have different examples,
and that found that show found lots of success. Right,
So again it's not to say in total, but it's
still there. Yeah. So the media is absolutely responsible for
a lot of our stuff because if we are only
relying upon the media to see ourselves, we're getting very
(33:57):
strong messages about not only who we are, but who
we can potentially be. M Yeah, I'm a hard one,
Like I don't want I don't give the media too
much of it incremental you're not getting gold stars. No, No,
definitely give credit where where I see it. But most
of the things that I would celebrate our independent productions.
(34:19):
You know, It's why I loves reproduction, So you know
what I mean, Like much of that had to come
from the ground, swell up, It's not some mainstream right,
So we could talk forever, y'all. But I mean, there's
just so much more I want to talk with you about.
But I know we have to wrap up. But I
do want to get a sense of any resources that
(34:40):
you really enjoy that you think other people who are
interested in like digging a little deeper into this conversation
might also enjoy anything you would share. Oh, you know,
I don't want to go to textbook around necessarily, because
there are lots of books, you know, that talk about
the history of colorism and they things of that nature.
(35:00):
But I'm a visual person and so you know, one
of the projects that I created it's called pretty Period
on Instagram. It's at I am pretty Period. Not to
big up myself, but big up myself. The project is really, uh,
it's a kind of collective response to the backhanded compliment
(35:21):
I've gotten way too many times is all you pretty
for a dark stand girl, which is not a compliment
at all. And the response is no, I'm pretty period.
And so part of the work of the project is
part of the reason why I love Instagram, because it
is a visual platform. I would just encourage people not
just to look at pretty Period in the images that
(35:42):
we share on a daily or coach the website, which
is pretty period dot me, but do some hashtag sirs.
You can hashtag melan in anything, you know, hashtag black
girl anything, and just see the diversity of our beauty,
you know, online because again, we don't have to rely
on the instream anymore, like we are creating new images
(36:04):
of and for ourselves. I think in addition to that,
I also don't want to discourage you from digging into
the history of colorism and black racial identity. It's hard,
you know, when folks ask me about resources, because I
feel like I ended up having to name the same
work over and over again, which is okay, but at
(36:25):
the same time, I think it also speaks kind of
to what we opened the conversation with, like the idea
that many of us aren't trained or guided in terms
of thinking critically. So if it's in a book, it's
real also that the publishing industry controls which books are released,
so then there's nobody is making assessment about which conversations
(36:46):
we get to have and in which direction and for
what audience. And so, yes, there are lots of resources
out there, I'm just not sure that there's anyone that
I would say, this is it if I would have
to say one. And it's not connected to colorism as
much as it's connected to blackness and our identity. It
(37:08):
is a novel of homegoing by your jeosity. You know,
so many people have read it. I I'm obsessed with
this book. I adore it. If I were in the classroom,
I would find a way to teach it. And it
is an amazing book. And what I love about it
is that it offers us the opportunity to connect the
(37:29):
right and to stop seeing ourselves as these individual identities
across the world and recognize that like when people say
we came from the same place, that's like historical facts,
you know. But I love how she tells the story.
So I would definitely encourage folks to read that book again.
(37:50):
Just to be open in any case, not just the
resources that I'm sharing, any resource that anybody shares with
you recognize that you're only going to get from that
resource what you're able to right based upon where you are,
what you're willing to release about yourself in order to
receive what's being shared. So all of that to say,
(38:14):
I don't know, well you shared, you've already shared some
good stuff as well. And where can we keep up
with you and all the incredible work that you're doing.
We already have pretty period. Where else can we find you?
I'm online My website is Yaba blade dot com and
I'm also on social on Instagram and Twitter at Yaba Blade,
(38:36):
so my name will lead you to where i am
on perfect well. We will be sure to include all
of that in the show notes. Thank you so much
for today, Yava, You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
I'm so glad that Dr Blade was able to share
her expertise with us today. To learn more about her
(38:57):
and her work, or to check out the recour is
that she shared, be sure to visit the show notes
at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session to seventeen,
and don't forget to text two of your girls and
tell them to check out the episode as well. If
you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure
to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black
Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to
(39:20):
continue digging into this topic or just be a community
with other sisters, come on over and join us in
the sister circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet
designed just for black women. You can join us at
community dot therapy for black girls dot com. Thank y'all
so much for joining me again this week. I look
forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon.
(39:42):
Take good care.
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