September 1, 2021 • 43 mins
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
Each September is the observance of National Recovery Month. The journey to recovery after substance abuse looks different for everyone and it’s important to find spaces and communities that can support you along the way. Joining us today to chat about what the recovery journey might look like throughout the lifespan is Kristen Feemster, LMFT. Kristen and I chatted about what kinds of things you should pay attention to in your relationship with alcohol to indicate whether there may be a concern, the importance of recovery options that are culturally responsive, and how we can support friends and loved ones in their recovery.
Resources
Visit our Amazon Store for all the books mentioned on the podcast!
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https://www.believebefreebewell.com/
IG: @kristenfeemster
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
M h. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,
a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all
the small decisions we can make to become the best
(00:21):
possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard
and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more
information or to find a therapist in your area, visit
our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While
I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,
(00:42):
it is not meant to be a substitute for a
relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks
so much for joining me for Session Tree of the
Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into the
show after a word from our sponsors. The journey to
(01:15):
recovery after substance abuse looks different for everyone, and it's
important to find spaces and communities that can support you
along the way. Joining us today to chat about what
the recovery journey might look like throughout the lifespan is
Kristen Fiemster. Kristen is a licensed marriage and family therapist,
wellness coach, and the founder of V three based out
of Charlotte, North Carolina, with the mission of moving women
(01:38):
toward freedom. She offers therapy and wellness programs to support
women in shifting unhealthy patterns to create a sustainable lifestyle.
Kristen has been sobered for six and a half years
and has felt it was important to share her story
because there were so few black women sharing about sobriety.
When she was looking for resources, Kristen and I chatted
about what kinds of things you should pay attention to
(02:00):
in your relationship with alcohol to indicate there may be
a concern, the importance of recovery options that are culturally responsive,
and how we can support friends and loved ones in
their recovery. If there's something that resonates with you while
enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media
using the hashtag TBG in session. Here's our conversation. Thank
(02:26):
you so much for joining me today, Christen. I'm so
excited to chat with you. Yes, thank you for having me.
I am seriously honored to be here and speaking on
the topics. So thanks for having me. Yeah, I was
wondering if you could just start by telling us a
little bit about your recovery story and the decision to
make that a part of your practice. Essentially, I grew
(02:47):
up as a child struggle with anxiety. I can identify
now when perfectionism from a very young age, and I
think that was exasperated by you know, I grew up
in a predominantly white environment, community to predominantly white school,
and just naturally always felt like I needed to do
more and be better and that good wasn't good enough,
and that I needed to keep striving and striving for
(03:10):
perfection to make it to feel good enough and to
be acknowledged and appreciated. And so these are all things
that I'm realizing in hindsight. At the time, I didn't
really know what was going on why I felt like
I was just always, you know, on edge about life
and the things that I was involved in. I grew
up an athlete. I played basketball, volleyball, ran track. I
(03:31):
was a year round athlete of some sort, and so
a lot of that worry, lack of confidence insecurity showed
up in my sports as well, and so always struggled
with that in high school and particularly in college as
well when I played basketball. And so where the drinking
comes in is that I didn't wait until I was
twenty one to start drinking. So that is important to
(03:54):
note in my story. I started drinking in high school socially,
but still nonetheless drinking before I was of age, and
that continued in college. But I would say at certain
periods it was normal for whatever, you know, late teens,
early twenties would be as far as environment, and I
think that's something to speak to as well. Is that
(04:16):
normal actually or is that a problem already in the
ways that I was drinking. But I started to notice
the older I got and the more my um mindset
around my capabilities and struggling with confidence and just being
anxious in spaces where I know I'm qualified, I know
(04:36):
I'm smart, I know I'm capable, but still just feeling
like I wasn't good enough. I started to notice relying
on drinking more and so outside of the social settings
of parties and tailgates and different things like that, and
more into my personal life to deal with my emotions.
And so this is something that happened slowly. It's not
(04:57):
something that I remember the day when it was social
and then it went into problem drinking, but it was
a gradual reaching out for something to make me feel better,
whether it be a heartbreak, whether it be losing a game,
whether it be you know, the pressures of all the
organizations I was a part of and all that, it
just slowly began to be I think I'll have some
(05:21):
wine with that over time. What we know about problem
drinking is that for a lot of us who have
a problem with alcohol, the behaviors that we used to
do start out maybe more occasional or far in between.
But as you continue drinking, you realize that you start
to do things more frequently, drinking more often, and so
(05:41):
instead of it being a weekend thing, now it's a
Thursday through Sunday thing, or now I'm drinking on Wednesday,
because you know, everybody drinks on Wednesdays, and you start
to think through all these reasons why you're drinking is
okay on any given day. I didn't notice that as
much until I graduated college and no longer was a student,
(06:02):
no longer was an athlete, and was really just going
through an identity crisis of who am I? What was
that all for? You know, all those years of trying
and striving, What am I doing with my life? Where
am I going? Where am I living? What's my career?
And what do I do with myself through that. Yet again, well,
let me just drink to not think about it or
(06:24):
to feel better about it. And so that essentially was
more or less the case leading up until I decided
to stop drinking at the age of twenty six. But
I just began to notice that all of the things
that I felt like I had under control, whether it
be certain days or a certain amount, or a certain
time period or or anything, bit by bit started to
(06:47):
no longer matter, and I began to feel out of control.
I felt like I was no longer dictating when and
how much I would drink, and rather alcohol was starting
to control me. And that's when I knew that I
become at least psychologically and emotionally dependent, but also maybe
even physically dependent at some stages before I stopped. So
(07:09):
you bring up so many really great points, Chris, and
I really appreciate you sharing that with us, because you've
talked about like how drinking is a part of our culture, right,
especially like youth culture, right, Like that is what you
do when you go to college, and at least that's
the thought, right, And so I'm wondering if you can
share for people how they might know when drinking has
become problematic. It's a spectrum, right if there's so many
(07:32):
debates about is alcohol good for us? Is it not?
Or can you drink in moderation can you not? And
really every person is different, And so sometimes when I'm
giving people suggestions or guides for that, I put it
out there that you really have to be in tune
with yourself because any example, you can rule yourself out
of or into, depending on your headspace around it. And
(07:53):
so ultimately, if you feel like alcohol is causing you
to do, you say, or be things that you don't
want to be and that you don't want to do
and that aren't true to who you are, then it
is a problem. But what that could look like for
anybody who's just like I don't know if my behaviors
are kind of on the cusp or whatever, but it
could look like I'm noticing an increase in the frequency
(08:17):
of drinking. So say, oh, well, I used to have
one or two drinks on the weekend and that was it,
and now I find that I have five at a
day party or at an event, you know what I mean?
Noticing that increase and not wanting it to be there anymore.
You know what I mean or noticing that you're either
your tolerance or your frequency, or noticing that you are
(08:38):
justifying your drinking. So well, it's okay if I, you know,
drink at this because we're at a social gathering. I mean,
what's wrong with drinking now when you know that you
may not necessarily want to drink at that event or
have plans to not drink. I find that a lot
of times with clients I work with now is that
I go in and I tell myself I'm just gonna
have to and the next thing, you know, I've had
(09:00):
more than that, and then I don't know where I
fell off from my original plan. And so if you
have a point where it was like I meant to
stay sober or I didn't even really want to drink,
that I found myself drinking anyway, that also could be
a sign that your relationship with alcohol is is not
in the healthiest of spaces. And of course, if sometimes
(09:21):
we talk about the consequences that you can start to
experience from continue drinking, whether that be severe hangovers that
are getting worse. I know that that was something that
I started to experience, is that the bounce back the
next morning was not what it used to be, and
it was a problem. It was getting in the way
of studying for the next day, showing up for things
the next day, or just canceling things that I would
(09:42):
have been at because of the way I physically felt.
And so I think that also can be a sign
that's actually normalized. You know, the hangover, the Sunday scaryes
we call them sometimes, or the Sunday blues from a
weekend of drinking, tends to be normalized. But to know
that that's not normal to feel that way, and that
is our body letting us know, Hey, we did too much,
(10:04):
too many toxin in the body. Right now we're sick,
you know what I mean. And so I think those
are some of the big ones around frequency and tolerance
for alcohol, as well as the physical and emotional consequences
that come along with it. Yeah, I mean, And there
are lots of different pieces that would need to be addressed.
And so can you share if I recognize that I
(10:24):
do have a problem, right, Like, maybe I don't appreciate
my behavior after I've been drinking. I'm noticing that I
am drinking way more than I used to. What are
some of the next steps, Like what do I do
if I discover that I do have a problem with drinking. Honestly,
a big part of it is just acknowledgement. So many
times we live in a space of denial or just
lack of knowledge about what's going on. Some people come
(10:46):
from environments where their families drink like that, their parents
drink like that, their siblings, and so they don't really
notice you know that something is a problem, and so
I always apply people because you need that, you need
that awareness, you need to it doesn't come with a
certain label. I think it's just the acknowledgement that I
have a drinking problem is really what I'm looking for,
(11:07):
because that shows that we're open and willing to explore
what the next steps might be. And so with that
next steps I would say is to definitely get connected.
I think that that's the most important part of it,
because so many times addiction and problems, any of our vices,
really happened in secret. You know, it's like nobody knows
(11:28):
or the right the same people who do the same
thing are the only people that know, and it really
keeps us from accessing other supports, other skills, other resources
that we might need to actually address the problem. And
so I would suggest if there's a support meeting or
even a safe person that you know is sober or
(11:48):
has mentioned some certain things about their journey with a
particular substance or vice that you can reach out to
that you feel safe with, I would say that those
are some great places to start. And of course you
can never get enough of just knowledge around alcoholism addiction
just for your own understanding of what's going on with you,
because I know so many people struggle with shame and
(12:10):
feeling like an addiction is their fault. And I did
this on myself, and I should have had more control
and discipline to figure this out on my own. And
so I think the more knowledge you can have about it,
the more you can allow yourself to get the support
and resources that you need to really overcome it. Kristin,
that brings up an interesting point in wondering if you
can say more about And I do feel like there
(12:31):
has been some back and forth in the field around
like addiction and like genetics, and is this like a
thing that is a more biological thing? Is it more
social thing? Can you speak to where we are now
with the thoughts around addiction? Yeah, I think that the
nature nurture debate is going to be one that will
always have about certain things. But what we do know
(12:53):
and what I'll speak to and what I help my
clients with the most is understanding that our environment and
the context which we grow up normalizes things, exasperates things, trauma,
different things like that play a role in who we become.
In the last five to ten years, I would say
that the conversation around it doesn't have to be a
(13:14):
black or white thing as far as what addiction looks
like and what alcoholism is in order for people to
want to be sober. I think it's really helped to
get less away from is it or like how and
the why, instead of realizing there's actually at least thirty
different reasons why we are dependent on alcohols in the
ways that we are, and it matters to a certain
(13:37):
extent why, but it also is more important as to
how we move forward with that information and what we
do with that. For example, for me, alcoholism does run
on one side of my family, and I don't blame
my behavior on anyone else's or anything like that. I
didn't observe alcoholism as a child. It's just as in
my bloodline. But I do think that avoiding hard conversations
(14:02):
and reaching outside of ourselves to feel better and having
secrets of some sort is a problem in my family.
And that all lends itself to oh wow, I have
a problem. Who can I talk to about it? Like?
What do I do about it? Not really seeing what
I need in order to move past that? And I
see that as being very important for the ways that
(14:24):
we cope and the habits that we develop. Great points there,
you know, And I think a part of like just
our national conversation just around stuff like managing stress and
coping mechanisms, right, Like alcohol often comes up as a
part of like, oh, you know, I'm having a bad day,
like like you mentioned, like I'll just have a glass
of wine, right, I mean, you know, the American Psychological
(14:45):
Association has this Stress in America report that they do
every year, and so of course last year's results were
very telling. So in the twenty twenty Stress in America Report,
of adults reported drinking more alcohol to cope with stress
during the pandemic then before, right, And I think there
are a lots of reasons, of course, that we can
(15:06):
understand how that happened. Can you share a little bit
more about what has been the impact of the pandemic
in people's drinking. Yeah, I definitely would agree with that statistic,
if not higher than that. You know, of course, statistics
only come from people who self report and acknowledge and
are aware that they're drinking. Problems have have increased. But
I also think that it's twofold, right. I spoke to
(15:28):
earlier about how sometimes we justify and rationalize our drinking
habits because of social situations, like, oh, well, I'm drinking
this much because I had this on Thursday, this on Friday,
this on Saturday, and then brunch on Sunday. So that's
four days of drinking that have all been justified by
a social outing of some sort. And so when the
(15:49):
pandemic happens, but we don't have that event on Thursday,
we don't have that engagement on Friday. We don't have
those social constructs, and so when you take those away,
now it's I'm just drinking. I realized it's blatant, like
I still want my wine on Thursday night even though
I don't have dinner with friends to go to. And
so I think that that has increased people's awareness of
(16:13):
their drinking habits that have maybe already been there. But
also on the other side of that, we have been
collectively under a lot of stress and trauma, whether that
be from the pandemic, whether that be from the protests
and racial tension in the country, political tension in the country,
and not really having the skills to deal with that otherwise,
(16:34):
while also getting messages from big alcohol companies say hey, look,
this is fun. If you pay attention to commercials, there
will be moms with kids and the mom's like they're
advertising wine, but it'll be like, you know, moms, you
deserve this after a long day. It won't be overt messages.
It will usually be a covert placing of a drink
(16:55):
or highlighting a drink and a video or something like that.
But all those messages we take those in. And so
where have we been most of the pandemic. We've been
on our phones, We've been watching TV. We've been taking
all of that stuff in. And it's not that it
happened suddenly, but I do think it plays a role
in what we think we have access to to cope,
(17:16):
and so on both sides. I think there's already a
drinking issue in our country, for sure, but it's also
been exasperated by the particular stressors that were under and
it's highlighting how we've used alcohol as a crutch in
many ways that we didn't realize before. More from my
conversation with Kristen after the break, So you mentioned earlier
(17:45):
that when you feel like you might have a problem
with alcohol, like one of the best things to do
is to acknowledge that and to find others that you
can connect with. I mean, we know that for black women, right, like,
situations and treatment should be culturally specific, right, And so
I would just love to hear your take around how
(18:06):
you can find those programs and what that looks like
when we are talking about black women like going to
a recovery program, Like, how would that be tailor to
be culturally specific? So I would say that this new
space that we're in as far as recovery, I'm taking
that in in real time that really only since the
pandemic started have I even seen for my own personal
(18:27):
recovery spaces that are unique and safe for women of color,
black women. And so I think that if we had
to find some sort of silver lining with the pandemic,
I think that recovery spaces going online has made them
one more accessible two different people. You know, to have
to acknowledge your drinking problem to an extent that you
(18:47):
would physically go to a meeting is different than being
able to log on to a virtual meeting with your
camera off and just check it out, you know what
I mean. So I think in that sense of the word,
recovery is more accessible, or at least people who are sober,
is more accessible. And also with that, I've tended and
have seen some recovery meetings that are specifically for BIPOC
(19:08):
folks to attend, and it creates a safer space to
have these conversations around race and around everything that's going on.
And I remember when I first got sober, I started
going to in person twelve step meetings and it was
at the height of Donald Trump's selection. I mean, it
was really tense. And I'm in the Carolina, so we're
(19:29):
down in the South, and you know what I mean,
It's just just tense. And I remember feeling so isolated
because there is a element of not talking about outside
issues in those twelve step spaces, and I was like,
I have no idea where to take this information and
this weight that I feel and the frustration of just
today like I don't feel like I can talk about it.
(19:50):
And then also I'm looking at people who don't look
like me. I don't even know if it's safe for
me to even bring that up. And so that was
a pretty big deal the first couple of years. But
I say that to say that now there are those
spaces that are popping up now where you can log
onto a meeting and see nothing but beautiful brown women
staring back at you from all over the world, even
(20:12):
um to give you that support to say yes, I
see you, Yes I hear you, and need to you know.
And so off the top of my head, she recovers
has a Black Women Only a recovery meeting that they
host at least once a week that I know about.
It's a great space. It's led by a recovery coach,
so you can get some really good information and support
(20:35):
there as well, but also other women from all across
the world that are trying to get and stay sober
at a time like this. And then also Sober Black
Girls Club is an Instagram page and they also have
several recovery meetings throughout the week for this very same reason,
to give us a space to just say I'm black
(20:56):
and I'm struggling, and I have a drinking problem, and
I don't know where else to go to talk about
all these things together. But in those spaces you have
people that are looking back at you and have been there.
It really makes all the difference. Yeah, I'm sure. I mean,
you know, because the whole premise around like a A
is that, like it's supposed to be anonymous, right, And
you know, if you are like a black woman in
(21:17):
the South where there might not be a lot of
like other people who look like you, like, are you
really anonymous? Right? Like I feel like there is this
sense that your anonymity may not be protected in the
same way as someone else who is not a black
woman in the group. Absolutely, you just spoke to my
story right from the jump. That's exactly how it was.
You know. I remember walking into some TWIST meetings at
(21:39):
the beginning and I couldn't understand, like I would have
to call another sober friend and have them talk me
through walking into the room, and they could not, and
most of them white, all of them white, actually, they
could not understand why it was just so hard. They're like,
you know, everybody there has a drinking problem too. It's
not that they could deal. You know, no one's gonna
go back and share your information with anyone. And I'm like,
(22:02):
I know, I didn't have the words for it at
the time, but it just was so hard for me
to get through and to attend meetings at first. And
it was because i would be the only black person
in the room and I'm six foot tall fro you know,
there is no blending in and like kind of just
sliding in the back door and just kind of see
there's like, whoa, there's this new black woman in our meeting.
(22:24):
Who are you? It came from a genuine place, I
would say. I don't think anybody was out to like
point me out, but it definitely did not feel anonymous
to me, you know. So yeah, that's definitely a big factor.
Mm hmmm. Yeah. So can you say more about something
else that happens in like this twelve step programs, is
that like you will typically get matched with a sponsor,
(22:45):
right or like find a sponsor. What kinds of things
should you look into to figure out like who's gonna
be like the right sponsor for you? So for me,
when I first went into twelfth Step I knew that
my first priority was that I didn't have a anybody
really that could support me in the ways that I
needed to be supported as far as just not drinking.
(23:05):
And so my initial decision was made out of I
need someone that I can depend on to pick up
the phone, to talk me through these stages and really
just give me that support. I didn't have the option
really to choose a black sponsor at the time. I
didn't in that particular meeting when I made the decision,
there was no one there, and I just went with
(23:26):
who was there. And so I think that this is
a very nuanced thing because it's like, do you wait
and get that support once you find, you know, another
black person to walk you through the steps or just
to be your sponsor, or do you make the decision
that hey, I need help right now today and to
let me go with what I have and then hopefully
(23:47):
be able to transition. There's a lot of different factors
that that depends on. I would say, but if it's
possible to find someone that can relate to you culturally, racially,
that sort of thing that will help ease your recovery experience,
if at all possible, I would say yeah, absolutely, look
for someone who is also black and in recovery however
(24:08):
you may identify. And the recovery programs that I mentioned
to you earlier, they do have those supports in place naturally,
But even for people who are in person, I would say,
be very mindful of not waiting for that person to
come because alcohol, it is an addiction and it will
make it hard for you to stay sober to not
have that support. But also if there's an opportunity, I
(24:30):
would say, jump on it for sure. Something that happened
to me with my sponsor is that it worked for
a while, and I'll say this is kind of how
recovery changes over time. It worked for us to stick
with the issues, help me stay sober, rebuild my life,
you know, go through the steps all of that. But
(24:51):
then there was like at the two or three year mark,
I realized that I was in a space where I
needed more and that's okay too, And so I remember
having a conversation with her to say everything she had
done for me. I genuinely appreciated that we had come
to the end of our relationship. I just knew that
the issues I was dealing with at that point, we're
a little bit more specific, and that's when I broke
(25:13):
off into exploring some of these other recovery spaces to
to help myself. The virtual ones weren't available at that time,
but that is when I started exploring what really should
my recovery look like, how can I make this last
long term? And it's not just staying right here. I've
got to look for more and try to find more.
(25:33):
M hm. Can you say more about like how somebody
might know? Because it sounds a lot like working with
the therapist, right Like, there comes a point and at
some point where you know you're working with a therapist
for some time and you've done great work, but you realize, like, okay,
this person can't take me to this NIXT please. So
what kinds of question should someone ask to kind of
determine whether they should stick with the sponsor or whether
(25:53):
it may be time to like break up so to
speak with death sponsor and maybe find somebody else. How
would you know? I would say, do I feel like,
with the information I have about myself right now, can
I be fully honest with them? And so when I
was early on in recovery, to the best of my knowledge,
I was being honest about the things I was dealing with.
(26:16):
But as you heal and as you grow, you realize
deeper things or other things start to come to the
surface that then I also need to process and get
support around. And so when I felt hesitant to call,
or felt like I couldn't really give a full update
on my day, or I felt like I couldn't really
run a certain issue by my sponsor, then I started
(26:36):
to realize, Okay, if I can't be completely authentic and
honest with this person, then I need something else in
addition to that, you know. And so that's an option too.
It may not be a breaking up with your sponsor
and then just exploring your other options. It might be
a little bit of both. But for me, I was
pretty well into the twelfth Step life and felt like
I needed something else branching out. And so for me,
(26:58):
that looked like getting on the sober women hashtag on
Instagram and looking up other solver black women and saying
hey to them, you know, And that kind of helped
me before I actually ended things with my sponsor, kind
of helped me realize, Uh, that's what it is, that's
what I was missing, that's what I needed more of
and so it kind of overlapped. It wasn't like I
(27:18):
knew it, broke up with her and then moved on.
It was kind of like, through the exploration, I realized,
I need other black women that are doing this in
the ways that I'm having to do it. And so
let me add that in do I feel safe? Do
I feel like I can be open and honest and
authentic with these women? Yes? I do now sponsor, thank you,
(27:38):
this has been an amazing you know, and had that
conversation with her, and she understood that I needed to
do that for myself. So so I want to talk
a little bit about media portrayals of alcoholism, because you know,
we've already talked about like how some of that impacts us, right,
even what people think are subtle messages definitely impacts us.
(27:58):
And we get ideas about that. And more recently we
have seen varying degrees of like alcoholism and some shows
like Euphoria, how to Get Away with Murder, and most recently,
or at least the most recent depiction I've seen in
Treatment on HBO, right, which is a show about a
therapist and her clients. Right, And so I just love
to hear like any thoughts you have about maybe those
(28:20):
shows are others in terms of like what you feel
like they've really got right about portraying alcoholism and you
know treatment. Yeah, I've seen Euphoria, I've seen How to
get Away with Murder and All American. Actually I've watched recently.
It's another series with an addiction storyline with one of
the young teens in that show. And I think that
(28:42):
I see myself in all of them. I see the superwoman,
you know. When you think about Viola Davis and How
to get Away with Murder, her job was super stressful.
She was trying to hold it all together. There was
so many things going on, and those are the reasons
why we reached for that relief of a drink. Is
to have a ache and to cope and to keep
showing up. And I just I can't remember, you know,
(29:03):
episodes or seasons in particular, but I just remember seeing
scenes of her trying to deal with the stressors of
the day when she would come home and it was
and it worked for a while, and then it started
to spill over into her work, you know, and it
started to backfire. And I think that is an accurate
depiction of how alcoholism or even just drinking problems in general,
(29:25):
how they tolerance increases, the frequency goes up, and you
start to experience those more severe consequences. And so I
do appreciate seeing that more in the storylines because I
think it helps women like myself, for someone who's not
even where they are really realizing their drinking problem, are
ready to acknowledge it, they can at least see a
(29:46):
different option. And I think that representation is so important
for when I log onto whatever social media or if
I watch a show, to see that I'm not the
only one and that there's a recover, re option available,
like I can see that happening. And then also for
some of them, you kind of get the understanding of
(30:07):
where they're drinking came from, which helps you have compassion.
You know, we're so hard on ourselves and we think
that I caused this on myself, when really, you know,
with euphoria, she had all kinds of trauma that was
from her experience in childhood that was fueling that, And
the same for all the other storylines. And so if
I can have compassion for these characters and see how
(30:29):
they got to where they are, surely I can have
compassion for myself and give myself that grace to go
get help and support. I need to really be well
you know, yeah, you know, Kristen. As I'm thinking about it,
it feels similar to how historically we didn't necessarily think
about black women as it was related to eating disorders, right, Like,
(30:49):
for a long time it felt like, oh, that's not
something black girl struggle with, right, And it feels like
maybe you to a lesser extent, it was the same
thing with substance abuse, right that you didn't necessarily hear
about this being a problem for black women with of course,
this is something that we have struggled with, whether we
needed it that or not exactly. Yeah, And historically, just
thinking about you know, just the medical field in general, like,
(31:12):
it wasn't okay for us to struggle with that for
a very long time. We had to keep it together.
There wasn't a supportive, non judgmental space for us to
go to to acknowledge those things, and so eat for
black women and even for our community in general, we
go in word and we say, well, we'll just keep
it in house, we'll just figure it out some other
kind of way, and then that turns into stigma around who,
(31:35):
what does certain disorders, what do they look like, and
who gets to quote unquote gets to have them or not.
And it can be very damaging to to our community
to believe that because we go without acknowledgement and it
repeats the generational patterns and then the problem grows. And
so yes, I do think that has been a challenge
(31:57):
for us with food as well, with eating disource as well.
The same thing and that it's okay and it's okay
you're not you're not abnormal. It's okay that you struggle
with that. Let's see what it would look like to
heal and get better from that, you know more from
my conversation with Kristen after the break. So a lot
(32:26):
of times I think what happens with stuff like substance
abuse in drinking, you know, friends and loved ones sometimes
recognize that there is a concern, maybe before the person does.
So can you share a little bit about how we
might be able to support a friend or a loved
one who is struggling with recovery. I think the most
important part is to make sure that you're a safe place.
(32:49):
And I think that sometimes we want to express concern
and because it feels urgent to us. We come out
with maybe a strong energy around it, make demand sometimes
you know, out of concern, but it's not as gentle
as as it may need to be. And so I
always say that how are you living your day to
(33:10):
day life and relationship with that person to show that
you're a safe space for them to acknowledge something that's
so difficult to even acknowledge within yourself that or yet
much less you know another person. And so for me
and my journey, that looked like who would push alcohol
on me in different social settings or not before I
(33:33):
stop drinking, but who would encourage me to drink? And
who would just kind of let me make my own
decisions about whether I drink or not. Who would I
do other fun things with outside of just drinking. Who
did I have that type of relationship with. How did
I see them interact with other people around mental health
struggles and addiction? Did I hear them show care and
(33:54):
compassion or did I hear them show judgment and and
play stereotypes on that person? So I would say, first
and foremost, make sure you're a safe person in the
ways that you are in relationship with that person In general,
and then from there. I think there are some ways
to express concern in a gentle way, and what we
know about addiction is sometimes you can we can get
(34:15):
into defending our addictions, being very reactive if someone brings
up a drinking problem, and so knowing that, going in
and finding some gentle ways to express concern that are
without judgment as much as possible, I think is a
helpful way, um to start the conversation, and then also
educating yourself on what this means, what this looks like,
(34:38):
what you can due to influence the situation, and what
ultimately is out of your control. I think it's helpful.
I've spent some years as a family therapist at some
treatment centers, and a lot of our work was around
knowing what they could and couldn't do for their loved one.
And so so many parents with their kids, they're like
they want them to be sober more than they're try.
(35:00):
I would want to be sober even if they're an
adult child. They would still you know, enable in certain ways,
and we'll pay for this, and we'll pay for that.
Just go to treatment, and you know, like all the
different ways that they would try to support them. They
thought they were supporting them, but really it was just
enabling the situation. So my role with them was just
to talk about what does it look like to have
healthy boundaries and almost at some points detached, detached from
(35:25):
needing to know and be in control of the situation.
Which is very hard and painful for us to do
is to see someone else suffering and feel like we
have to completely detach from watching them do so. But
in actuality is very important for the family or loved
ones recovery as well. You know, you have the person
with the drinking problem that has their own recovery, but
(35:46):
also the support and family for for that person also
have their own recovery process, and so boundaries is another
part of that work and realizing what am I responsible for?
What am I not responsible for? How can I influence
the situation without making it my responsibility to do the
work for them? I think a lot of times, like
(36:06):
after a friend has decided like they are going to
be sober, right, there is the this awkwardness around, like, okay,
do we not have alcohol at the functions anymore? Like, so,
what kinds of practical things can people really do to
help a friend who might be sober? I think that
because we see drinking problems as being taboo, even though
we're trying to work on, you know, making it a
(36:28):
more normal thing to address and deal with. Sometimes we
think that asking the person and recovery what they need,
it's kind of like, oh, I gotta figure it out
on my own and then hopefully it won't trigger them
or hopefully it's what they need, instead of just saying
what does that mean for you? What can I do
to support you? What feels comfortable to you? And with
every person it's going to be different. You know. I
(36:49):
know some people that are not bothered by other people
drinking around them, or some people who drink non alcoholic
beverages instead of alcoholic beverages, and then some people who
are like, I can't be around it at all. I've
got to completely, like start with the clean slate of
friends and people, places and things. And so really for
each person it's going to be different. So first and foremost,
(37:12):
I would say it's okay to not guess, and it's
okay to not know, and so ask them what would
be the most supportive for you right now, and know
that that may change a year from now, may not
be such an urgent cravings and that sort of thing,
and they may be able to be in certain spaces
and be okay, but it really depends. And some of
the things that usually are things that need to be
(37:35):
adapted would be can this person be around alcohol in general?
Would they prefer to not to have a sober or
dry wedding or a sober activity, and if so, being
the friend that's okay with that, because I think sometimes
we're afraid that our friends aren't gonna wanna make any
adjustments for us or sacrifice for us, so that it's
(37:56):
gonna be burdensome to ask. You know, my friend grew
to opt for something else other than the wine tasting
and the paintents, you know what I mean. And so
anytime you can just say, hey, I have plans for
us and it just naturally doesn't include alcohol, that is
the best because it's like you don't even have to
like worry about it. We're going hiking, you know, don't
(38:17):
have anything to do with alcohol. I think that's a
great way to do that. And also to be supportive
when they share with you. And so if someone says
I think I have a drinking problem and I wanted
to let you know. That means that they trust you,
and that means that they need your support. And so
(38:38):
I can't count how many times what a drinking problem?
Now you don't and it's like, but I'm telling you
that I do, and I need your support, you know,
in that moment. And so I think that's something that
folks can know. It's just if someone tells you that
accept them, love them. How can I support you? That's awesome,
that's great, that's great. I would love to support you
(38:59):
in doing that. What do you need for me? I
think it's a great way. M m yeah. You know.
Boundary where Kristen, I think is important in so many
different areas of like healing, right, but it seems like
it would be particularly important here, especially if you are
working to maintain your sobriety around like Okay, no, I
can't be in that kind of a situation, or please
don't invite me to these kinds of things, or even
(39:21):
like you just mentioned right, like if I say I
have a drinking problem, what does that bring up for
other people who maybe drink as much as I was? Right,
so now, because it feel like an indictment, and so
it feels like there needs to be some real boundary
work as a part of this recovery as well. Can
you say more about that? Yeah, I think that you know,
recovery is a beautiful, beautiful journey. I wouldn't trade mind
(39:42):
for the world, and I know so many women that,
even through the ups and downs, find it to be
worth it. But some of that can be hard. It's
because not everybody is ready to do what you need
them to do or what you would have them do
to support your recovery. And sometimes that does mean seeing
people less, it does bowing out of certain things based
on the day you've had. Like for me, if I've
(40:04):
had a rough week and it's not that I'm going
to go out and drink, but I just know mentally
and emotionally I've had a draining week, I tend to
not put myself. Even at six almost seven years sober,
I may opt out of going to the party with
the friends just because I know that I don't need that.
I don't need that extra stressor on me. Sometimes, you know,
(40:26):
you do have to end friendships or distance yourself from
certain people in order to protect your recovery. And there's
a grieving process with that, you know. But I think
that in recovery, you can come to have closure with
that and have peace around having to make those decisions,
because not everyone's going to be in a place where
they can support you in the ways that you need
(40:48):
to be supported, and it is very important that you
handle and manage your triggers people, places, and things, and
sometimes those people are once closest to you, and so
having those calm stations can be hard but very necessary. Yeah,
which is why going back to the original points around
why building this new community of people is so important,
(41:10):
right because there may be a loss of some other
people who can't support you in the ways that you
need to. Absolutely. Yeah, So you've already given us quite
a few great resources, Kristen, But I wonder if there
are any other books or podcasts or communities that you
think people should check out that might support them if
they're looking for sober resources. Yes, so, I would say, honestly,
(41:31):
the best one that I know is searching the sober
Black Women hashtag on Instagram. I know a lot of
women black women that use that. There's a lot of
accounts that I found from that. It's a great resource.
She recovers dot org. They're not a BIPOC specific group,
but they do have some meetings that are specifically for
BIPOC and so you can get connected there. So we
(41:54):
Black Girls Club is another. I think their website is
just Sober Black Girls Club dot com, but they also
have an Instagram. They host meetings several times a week.
And what is your website, christ and as well as
any social media handles you'd like to share. My website
is B three, so the letter be the number three
by Kristen dot com. And my Instagram handle is just
(42:15):
my name at Kristen Fimster. And so if you go
to my website, I do have a resources tab that
has a list of other meetings. They're not all specifically
for black women or people of color, but there is
a resource to get started, Like you mentioned podcasts and
recovery meetings and that sort of thing to just get
the ball rolling. And then all you have to do
is just get your foot in the door in one
(42:36):
of these spaces. You don't have to have all the
answers to start. You just need to open the door
and let someone else help you to guide you along.
And so anything that you can have where it's person
to person contact, I think will be the best bet
for moving forward with this and then growing from there perfect. Well,
thank you so much, christ and I really appreciate you
(42:57):
sharing so much with us today. Thank you, Thank you
are having me. I'm so glad that Kristen was able
to share her expertise with us today. To learn more
about her and her work, visit the show notes at
Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session two to three,
and don't forget to text two of your girls and
tell them to check out the episode right now. If
(43:18):
you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure
to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black
Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to
continue digging into this topic or just be in community
with other sisters, come on over and join us in
the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet
design just for black women. You can join us at
community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank you
(43:42):
all so much for joining me again this week. I
look forward to continue in this conversation with you all
real soon. Take good care,
M h. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,
a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all
the small decisions we can make to become the best
(00:21):
possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard
and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more
information or to find a therapist in your area, visit
our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While
I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,
(00:42):
it is not meant to be a substitute for a
relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks
so much for joining me for Session Tree of the
Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into the
show after a word from our sponsors. The journey to
(01:15):
recovery after substance abuse looks different for everyone, and it's
important to find spaces and communities that can support you
along the way. Joining us today to chat about what
the recovery journey might look like throughout the lifespan is
Kristen Fiemster. Kristen is a licensed marriage and family therapist,
wellness coach, and the founder of V three based out
of Charlotte, North Carolina, with the mission of moving women
(01:38):
toward freedom. She offers therapy and wellness programs to support
women in shifting unhealthy patterns to create a sustainable lifestyle.
Kristen has been sobered for six and a half years
and has felt it was important to share her story
because there were so few black women sharing about sobriety.
When she was looking for resources, Kristen and I chatted
about what kinds of things you should pay attention to
(02:00):
in your relationship with alcohol to indicate there may be
a concern, the importance of recovery options that are culturally responsive,
and how we can support friends and loved ones in
their recovery. If there's something that resonates with you while
enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media
using the hashtag TBG in session. Here's our conversation. Thank
(02:26):
you so much for joining me today, Christen. I'm so
excited to chat with you. Yes, thank you for having me.
I am seriously honored to be here and speaking on
the topics. So thanks for having me. Yeah, I was
wondering if you could just start by telling us a
little bit about your recovery story and the decision to
make that a part of your practice. Essentially, I grew
(02:47):
up as a child struggle with anxiety. I can identify
now when perfectionism from a very young age, and I
think that was exasperated by you know, I grew up
in a predominantly white environment, community to predominantly white school,
and just naturally always felt like I needed to do
more and be better and that good wasn't good enough,
and that I needed to keep striving and striving for
(03:10):
perfection to make it to feel good enough and to
be acknowledged and appreciated. And so these are all things
that I'm realizing in hindsight. At the time, I didn't
really know what was going on why I felt like
I was just always, you know, on edge about life
and the things that I was involved in. I grew
up an athlete. I played basketball, volleyball, ran track. I
(03:31):
was a year round athlete of some sort, and so
a lot of that worry, lack of confidence insecurity showed
up in my sports as well, and so always struggled
with that in high school and particularly in college as
well when I played basketball. And so where the drinking
comes in is that I didn't wait until I was
twenty one to start drinking. So that is important to
(03:54):
note in my story. I started drinking in high school socially,
but still nonetheless drinking before I was of age, and
that continued in college. But I would say at certain
periods it was normal for whatever, you know, late teens,
early twenties would be as far as environment, and I
think that's something to speak to as well. Is that
(04:16):
normal actually or is that a problem already in the
ways that I was drinking. But I started to notice
the older I got and the more my um mindset
around my capabilities and struggling with confidence and just being
anxious in spaces where I know I'm qualified, I know
(04:36):
I'm smart, I know I'm capable, but still just feeling
like I wasn't good enough. I started to notice relying
on drinking more and so outside of the social settings
of parties and tailgates and different things like that, and
more into my personal life to deal with my emotions.
And so this is something that happened slowly. It's not
(04:57):
something that I remember the day when it was social
and then it went into problem drinking, but it was
a gradual reaching out for something to make me feel better,
whether it be a heartbreak, whether it be losing a game,
whether it be you know, the pressures of all the
organizations I was a part of and all that, it
just slowly began to be I think I'll have some
(05:21):
wine with that over time. What we know about problem
drinking is that for a lot of us who have
a problem with alcohol, the behaviors that we used to
do start out maybe more occasional or far in between.
But as you continue drinking, you realize that you start
to do things more frequently, drinking more often, and so
(05:41):
instead of it being a weekend thing, now it's a
Thursday through Sunday thing, or now I'm drinking on Wednesday,
because you know, everybody drinks on Wednesdays, and you start
to think through all these reasons why you're drinking is
okay on any given day. I didn't notice that as
much until I graduated college and no longer was a student,
(06:02):
no longer was an athlete, and was really just going
through an identity crisis of who am I? What was
that all for? You know, all those years of trying
and striving, What am I doing with my life? Where
am I going? Where am I living? What's my career?
And what do I do with myself through that. Yet again, well,
let me just drink to not think about it or
(06:24):
to feel better about it. And so that essentially was
more or less the case leading up until I decided
to stop drinking at the age of twenty six. But
I just began to notice that all of the things
that I felt like I had under control, whether it
be certain days or a certain amount, or a certain
time period or or anything, bit by bit started to
(06:47):
no longer matter, and I began to feel out of control.
I felt like I was no longer dictating when and
how much I would drink, and rather alcohol was starting
to control me. And that's when I knew that I
become at least psychologically and emotionally dependent, but also maybe
even physically dependent at some stages before I stopped. So
(07:09):
you bring up so many really great points, Chris, and
I really appreciate you sharing that with us, because you've
talked about like how drinking is a part of our culture, right,
especially like youth culture, right, Like that is what you
do when you go to college, and at least that's
the thought, right, And so I'm wondering if you can
share for people how they might know when drinking has
become problematic. It's a spectrum, right if there's so many
(07:32):
debates about is alcohol good for us? Is it not?
Or can you drink in moderation can you not? And
really every person is different, And so sometimes when I'm
giving people suggestions or guides for that, I put it
out there that you really have to be in tune
with yourself because any example, you can rule yourself out
of or into, depending on your headspace around it. And
(07:53):
so ultimately, if you feel like alcohol is causing you
to do, you say, or be things that you don't
want to be and that you don't want to do
and that aren't true to who you are, then it
is a problem. But what that could look like for
anybody who's just like I don't know if my behaviors
are kind of on the cusp or whatever, but it
could look like I'm noticing an increase in the frequency
(08:17):
of drinking. So say, oh, well, I used to have
one or two drinks on the weekend and that was it,
and now I find that I have five at a
day party or at an event, you know what I mean?
Noticing that increase and not wanting it to be there anymore.
You know what I mean or noticing that you're either
your tolerance or your frequency, or noticing that you are
(08:38):
justifying your drinking. So well, it's okay if I, you know,
drink at this because we're at a social gathering. I mean,
what's wrong with drinking now when you know that you
may not necessarily want to drink at that event or
have plans to not drink. I find that a lot
of times with clients I work with now is that
I go in and I tell myself I'm just gonna
have to and the next thing, you know, I've had
(09:00):
more than that, and then I don't know where I
fell off from my original plan. And so if you
have a point where it was like I meant to
stay sober or I didn't even really want to drink,
that I found myself drinking anyway, that also could be
a sign that your relationship with alcohol is is not
in the healthiest of spaces. And of course, if sometimes
(09:21):
we talk about the consequences that you can start to
experience from continue drinking, whether that be severe hangovers that
are getting worse. I know that that was something that
I started to experience, is that the bounce back the
next morning was not what it used to be, and
it was a problem. It was getting in the way
of studying for the next day, showing up for things
the next day, or just canceling things that I would
(09:42):
have been at because of the way I physically felt.
And so I think that also can be a sign
that's actually normalized. You know, the hangover, the Sunday scaryes
we call them sometimes, or the Sunday blues from a
weekend of drinking, tends to be normalized. But to know
that that's not normal to feel that way, and that
is our body letting us know, Hey, we did too much,
(10:04):
too many toxin in the body. Right now we're sick,
you know what I mean. And so I think those
are some of the big ones around frequency and tolerance
for alcohol, as well as the physical and emotional consequences
that come along with it. Yeah, I mean, And there
are lots of different pieces that would need to be addressed.
And so can you share if I recognize that I
(10:24):
do have a problem, right, Like, maybe I don't appreciate
my behavior after I've been drinking. I'm noticing that I
am drinking way more than I used to. What are
some of the next steps, Like what do I do
if I discover that I do have a problem with drinking. Honestly,
a big part of it is just acknowledgement. So many
times we live in a space of denial or just
lack of knowledge about what's going on. Some people come
(10:46):
from environments where their families drink like that, their parents
drink like that, their siblings, and so they don't really
notice you know that something is a problem, and so
I always apply people because you need that, you need
that awareness, you need to it doesn't come with a
certain label. I think it's just the acknowledgement that I
have a drinking problem is really what I'm looking for,
(11:07):
because that shows that we're open and willing to explore
what the next steps might be. And so with that
next steps I would say is to definitely get connected.
I think that that's the most important part of it,
because so many times addiction and problems, any of our vices,
really happened in secret. You know, it's like nobody knows
(11:28):
or the right the same people who do the same
thing are the only people that know, and it really
keeps us from accessing other supports, other skills, other resources
that we might need to actually address the problem. And
so I would suggest if there's a support meeting or
even a safe person that you know is sober or
(11:48):
has mentioned some certain things about their journey with a
particular substance or vice that you can reach out to
that you feel safe with, I would say that those
are some great places to start. And of course you
can never get enough of just knowledge around alcoholism addiction
just for your own understanding of what's going on with you,
because I know so many people struggle with shame and
(12:10):
feeling like an addiction is their fault. And I did
this on myself, and I should have had more control
and discipline to figure this out on my own. And
so I think the more knowledge you can have about it,
the more you can allow yourself to get the support
and resources that you need to really overcome it. Kristin,
that brings up an interesting point in wondering if you
can say more about And I do feel like there
(12:31):
has been some back and forth in the field around
like addiction and like genetics, and is this like a
thing that is a more biological thing? Is it more
social thing? Can you speak to where we are now
with the thoughts around addiction? Yeah, I think that the
nature nurture debate is going to be one that will
always have about certain things. But what we do know
(12:53):
and what I'll speak to and what I help my
clients with the most is understanding that our environment and
the context which we grow up normalizes things, exasperates things, trauma,
different things like that play a role in who we become.
In the last five to ten years, I would say
that the conversation around it doesn't have to be a
(13:14):
black or white thing as far as what addiction looks
like and what alcoholism is in order for people to
want to be sober. I think it's really helped to
get less away from is it or like how and
the why, instead of realizing there's actually at least thirty
different reasons why we are dependent on alcohols in the
ways that we are, and it matters to a certain
(13:37):
extent why, but it also is more important as to
how we move forward with that information and what we
do with that. For example, for me, alcoholism does run
on one side of my family, and I don't blame
my behavior on anyone else's or anything like that. I
didn't observe alcoholism as a child. It's just as in
my bloodline. But I do think that avoiding hard conversations
(14:02):
and reaching outside of ourselves to feel better and having
secrets of some sort is a problem in my family.
And that all lends itself to oh wow, I have
a problem. Who can I talk to about it? Like?
What do I do about it? Not really seeing what
I need in order to move past that? And I
see that as being very important for the ways that
(14:24):
we cope and the habits that we develop. Great points there,
you know, And I think a part of like just
our national conversation just around stuff like managing stress and
coping mechanisms, right, Like alcohol often comes up as a
part of like, oh, you know, I'm having a bad day,
like like you mentioned, like I'll just have a glass
of wine, right, I mean, you know, the American Psychological
(14:45):
Association has this Stress in America report that they do
every year, and so of course last year's results were
very telling. So in the twenty twenty Stress in America Report,
of adults reported drinking more alcohol to cope with stress
during the pandemic then before, right, And I think there
are a lots of reasons, of course, that we can
(15:06):
understand how that happened. Can you share a little bit
more about what has been the impact of the pandemic
in people's drinking. Yeah, I definitely would agree with that statistic,
if not higher than that. You know, of course, statistics
only come from people who self report and acknowledge and
are aware that they're drinking. Problems have have increased. But
I also think that it's twofold, right. I spoke to
(15:28):
earlier about how sometimes we justify and rationalize our drinking
habits because of social situations, like, oh, well, I'm drinking
this much because I had this on Thursday, this on Friday,
this on Saturday, and then brunch on Sunday. So that's
four days of drinking that have all been justified by
a social outing of some sort. And so when the
(15:49):
pandemic happens, but we don't have that event on Thursday,
we don't have that engagement on Friday. We don't have
those social constructs, and so when you take those away,
now it's I'm just drinking. I realized it's blatant, like
I still want my wine on Thursday night even though
I don't have dinner with friends to go to. And
so I think that that has increased people's awareness of
(16:13):
their drinking habits that have maybe already been there. But
also on the other side of that, we have been
collectively under a lot of stress and trauma, whether that
be from the pandemic, whether that be from the protests
and racial tension in the country, political tension in the country,
and not really having the skills to deal with that otherwise,
(16:34):
while also getting messages from big alcohol companies say hey, look,
this is fun. If you pay attention to commercials, there
will be moms with kids and the mom's like they're
advertising wine, but it'll be like, you know, moms, you
deserve this after a long day. It won't be overt messages.
It will usually be a covert placing of a drink
(16:55):
or highlighting a drink and a video or something like that.
But all those messages we take those in. And so
where have we been most of the pandemic. We've been
on our phones, We've been watching TV. We've been taking
all of that stuff in. And it's not that it
happened suddenly, but I do think it plays a role
in what we think we have access to to cope,
(17:16):
and so on both sides. I think there's already a
drinking issue in our country, for sure, but it's also
been exasperated by the particular stressors that were under and
it's highlighting how we've used alcohol as a crutch in
many ways that we didn't realize before. More from my
conversation with Kristen after the break, So you mentioned earlier
(17:45):
that when you feel like you might have a problem
with alcohol, like one of the best things to do
is to acknowledge that and to find others that you
can connect with. I mean, we know that for black women, right, like,
situations and treatment should be culturally specific, right, And so
I would just love to hear your take around how
(18:06):
you can find those programs and what that looks like
when we are talking about black women like going to
a recovery program, Like, how would that be tailor to
be culturally specific? So I would say that this new
space that we're in as far as recovery, I'm taking
that in in real time that really only since the
pandemic started have I even seen for my own personal
(18:27):
recovery spaces that are unique and safe for women of color,
black women. And so I think that if we had
to find some sort of silver lining with the pandemic,
I think that recovery spaces going online has made them
one more accessible two different people. You know, to have
to acknowledge your drinking problem to an extent that you
(18:47):
would physically go to a meeting is different than being
able to log on to a virtual meeting with your
camera off and just check it out, you know what
I mean. So I think in that sense of the word,
recovery is more accessible, or at least people who are sober,
is more accessible. And also with that, I've tended and
have seen some recovery meetings that are specifically for BIPOC
(19:08):
folks to attend, and it creates a safer space to
have these conversations around race and around everything that's going on.
And I remember when I first got sober, I started
going to in person twelve step meetings and it was
at the height of Donald Trump's selection. I mean, it
was really tense. And I'm in the Carolina, so we're
(19:29):
down in the South, and you know what I mean,
It's just just tense. And I remember feeling so isolated
because there is a element of not talking about outside
issues in those twelve step spaces, and I was like,
I have no idea where to take this information and
this weight that I feel and the frustration of just
today like I don't feel like I can talk about it.
(19:50):
And then also I'm looking at people who don't look
like me. I don't even know if it's safe for
me to even bring that up. And so that was
a pretty big deal the first couple of years. But
I say that to say that now there are those
spaces that are popping up now where you can log
onto a meeting and see nothing but beautiful brown women
staring back at you from all over the world, even
(20:12):
um to give you that support to say yes, I
see you, Yes I hear you, and need to you know.
And so off the top of my head, she recovers
has a Black Women Only a recovery meeting that they
host at least once a week that I know about.
It's a great space. It's led by a recovery coach,
so you can get some really good information and support
(20:35):
there as well, but also other women from all across
the world that are trying to get and stay sober
at a time like this. And then also Sober Black
Girls Club is an Instagram page and they also have
several recovery meetings throughout the week for this very same reason,
to give us a space to just say I'm black
(20:56):
and I'm struggling, and I have a drinking problem, and
I don't know where else to go to talk about
all these things together. But in those spaces you have
people that are looking back at you and have been there.
It really makes all the difference. Yeah, I'm sure. I mean,
you know, because the whole premise around like a A
is that, like it's supposed to be anonymous, right, And
you know, if you are like a black woman in
(21:17):
the South where there might not be a lot of
like other people who look like you, like, are you
really anonymous? Right? Like I feel like there is this
sense that your anonymity may not be protected in the
same way as someone else who is not a black
woman in the group. Absolutely, you just spoke to my
story right from the jump. That's exactly how it was.
You know. I remember walking into some TWIST meetings at
(21:39):
the beginning and I couldn't understand, like I would have
to call another sober friend and have them talk me
through walking into the room, and they could not, and
most of them white, all of them white, actually, they
could not understand why it was just so hard. They're like,
you know, everybody there has a drinking problem too. It's
not that they could deal. You know, no one's gonna
go back and share your information with anyone. And I'm like,
(22:02):
I know, I didn't have the words for it at
the time, but it just was so hard for me
to get through and to attend meetings at first. And
it was because i would be the only black person
in the room and I'm six foot tall fro you know,
there is no blending in and like kind of just
sliding in the back door and just kind of see
there's like, whoa, there's this new black woman in our meeting.
(22:24):
Who are you? It came from a genuine place, I
would say. I don't think anybody was out to like
point me out, but it definitely did not feel anonymous
to me, you know. So yeah, that's definitely a big factor.
Mm hmmm. Yeah. So can you say more about something
else that happens in like this twelve step programs, is
that like you will typically get matched with a sponsor,
(22:45):
right or like find a sponsor. What kinds of things
should you look into to figure out like who's gonna
be like the right sponsor for you? So for me,
when I first went into twelfth Step I knew that
my first priority was that I didn't have a anybody
really that could support me in the ways that I
needed to be supported as far as just not drinking.
(23:05):
And so my initial decision was made out of I
need someone that I can depend on to pick up
the phone, to talk me through these stages and really
just give me that support. I didn't have the option
really to choose a black sponsor at the time. I
didn't in that particular meeting when I made the decision,
there was no one there, and I just went with
(23:26):
who was there. And so I think that this is
a very nuanced thing because it's like, do you wait
and get that support once you find, you know, another
black person to walk you through the steps or just
to be your sponsor, or do you make the decision
that hey, I need help right now today and to
let me go with what I have and then hopefully
(23:47):
be able to transition. There's a lot of different factors
that that depends on. I would say, but if it's
possible to find someone that can relate to you culturally, racially,
that sort of thing that will help ease your recovery experience,
if at all possible, I would say yeah, absolutely, look
for someone who is also black and in recovery however
(24:08):
you may identify. And the recovery programs that I mentioned
to you earlier, they do have those supports in place naturally,
But even for people who are in person, I would say,
be very mindful of not waiting for that person to
come because alcohol, it is an addiction and it will
make it hard for you to stay sober to not
have that support. But also if there's an opportunity, I
(24:30):
would say, jump on it for sure. Something that happened
to me with my sponsor is that it worked for
a while, and I'll say this is kind of how
recovery changes over time. It worked for us to stick
with the issues, help me stay sober, rebuild my life,
you know, go through the steps all of that. But
(24:51):
then there was like at the two or three year mark,
I realized that I was in a space where I
needed more and that's okay too, And so I remember
having a conversation with her to say everything she had
done for me. I genuinely appreciated that we had come
to the end of our relationship. I just knew that
the issues I was dealing with at that point, we're
a little bit more specific, and that's when I broke
(25:13):
off into exploring some of these other recovery spaces to
to help myself. The virtual ones weren't available at that time,
but that is when I started exploring what really should
my recovery look like, how can I make this last
long term? And it's not just staying right here. I've
got to look for more and try to find more.
(25:33):
M hm. Can you say more about like how somebody
might know? Because it sounds a lot like working with
the therapist, right Like, there comes a point and at
some point where you know you're working with a therapist
for some time and you've done great work, but you realize, like, okay,
this person can't take me to this NIXT please. So
what kinds of question should someone ask to kind of
determine whether they should stick with the sponsor or whether
(25:53):
it may be time to like break up so to
speak with death sponsor and maybe find somebody else. How
would you know? I would say, do I feel like,
with the information I have about myself right now, can
I be fully honest with them? And so when I
was early on in recovery, to the best of my knowledge,
I was being honest about the things I was dealing with.
(26:16):
But as you heal and as you grow, you realize
deeper things or other things start to come to the
surface that then I also need to process and get
support around. And so when I felt hesitant to call,
or felt like I couldn't really give a full update
on my day, or I felt like I couldn't really
run a certain issue by my sponsor, then I started
(26:36):
to realize, Okay, if I can't be completely authentic and
honest with this person, then I need something else in
addition to that, you know. And so that's an option too.
It may not be a breaking up with your sponsor
and then just exploring your other options. It might be
a little bit of both. But for me, I was
pretty well into the twelfth Step life and felt like
I needed something else branching out. And so for me,
(26:58):
that looked like getting on the sober women hashtag on
Instagram and looking up other solver black women and saying
hey to them, you know, And that kind of helped
me before I actually ended things with my sponsor, kind
of helped me realize, Uh, that's what it is, that's
what I was missing, that's what I needed more of
and so it kind of overlapped. It wasn't like I
(27:18):
knew it, broke up with her and then moved on.
It was kind of like, through the exploration, I realized,
I need other black women that are doing this in
the ways that I'm having to do it. And so
let me add that in do I feel safe? Do
I feel like I can be open and honest and
authentic with these women? Yes? I do now sponsor, thank you,
(27:38):
this has been an amazing you know, and had that
conversation with her, and she understood that I needed to
do that for myself. So so I want to talk
a little bit about media portrayals of alcoholism, because you know,
we've already talked about like how some of that impacts us, right,
even what people think are subtle messages definitely impacts us.
(27:58):
And we get ideas about that. And more recently we
have seen varying degrees of like alcoholism and some shows
like Euphoria, how to Get Away with Murder, and most recently,
or at least the most recent depiction I've seen in
Treatment on HBO, right, which is a show about a
therapist and her clients. Right, And so I just love
to hear like any thoughts you have about maybe those
(28:20):
shows are others in terms of like what you feel
like they've really got right about portraying alcoholism and you
know treatment. Yeah, I've seen Euphoria, I've seen How to
get Away with Murder and All American. Actually I've watched recently.
It's another series with an addiction storyline with one of
the young teens in that show. And I think that
(28:42):
I see myself in all of them. I see the superwoman,
you know. When you think about Viola Davis and How
to get Away with Murder, her job was super stressful.
She was trying to hold it all together. There was
so many things going on, and those are the reasons
why we reached for that relief of a drink. Is
to have a ache and to cope and to keep
showing up. And I just I can't remember, you know,
(29:03):
episodes or seasons in particular, but I just remember seeing
scenes of her trying to deal with the stressors of
the day when she would come home and it was
and it worked for a while, and then it started
to spill over into her work, you know, and it
started to backfire. And I think that is an accurate
depiction of how alcoholism or even just drinking problems in general,
(29:25):
how they tolerance increases, the frequency goes up, and you
start to experience those more severe consequences. And so I
do appreciate seeing that more in the storylines because I
think it helps women like myself, for someone who's not
even where they are really realizing their drinking problem, are
ready to acknowledge it, they can at least see a
(29:46):
different option. And I think that representation is so important
for when I log onto whatever social media or if
I watch a show, to see that I'm not the
only one and that there's a recover, re option available,
like I can see that happening. And then also for
some of them, you kind of get the understanding of
(30:07):
where they're drinking came from, which helps you have compassion.
You know, we're so hard on ourselves and we think
that I caused this on myself, when really, you know,
with euphoria, she had all kinds of trauma that was
from her experience in childhood that was fueling that, And
the same for all the other storylines. And so if
I can have compassion for these characters and see how
(30:29):
they got to where they are, surely I can have
compassion for myself and give myself that grace to go
get help and support. I need to really be well
you know, yeah, you know, Kristen. As I'm thinking about it,
it feels similar to how historically we didn't necessarily think
about black women as it was related to eating disorders, right, Like,
(30:49):
for a long time it felt like, oh, that's not
something black girl struggle with, right, And it feels like
maybe you to a lesser extent, it was the same
thing with substance abuse, right that you didn't necessarily hear
about this being a problem for black women with of course,
this is something that we have struggled with, whether we
needed it that or not exactly. Yeah, And historically, just
thinking about you know, just the medical field in general, like,
(31:12):
it wasn't okay for us to struggle with that for
a very long time. We had to keep it together.
There wasn't a supportive, non judgmental space for us to
go to to acknowledge those things, and so eat for
black women and even for our community in general, we
go in word and we say, well, we'll just keep
it in house, we'll just figure it out some other
kind of way, and then that turns into stigma around who,
(31:35):
what does certain disorders, what do they look like, and
who gets to quote unquote gets to have them or not.
And it can be very damaging to to our community
to believe that because we go without acknowledgement and it
repeats the generational patterns and then the problem grows. And
so yes, I do think that has been a challenge
(31:57):
for us with food as well, with eating disource as well.
The same thing and that it's okay and it's okay
you're not you're not abnormal. It's okay that you struggle
with that. Let's see what it would look like to
heal and get better from that, you know more from
my conversation with Kristen after the break. So a lot
(32:26):
of times I think what happens with stuff like substance
abuse in drinking, you know, friends and loved ones sometimes
recognize that there is a concern, maybe before the person does.
So can you share a little bit about how we
might be able to support a friend or a loved
one who is struggling with recovery. I think the most
important part is to make sure that you're a safe place.
(32:49):
And I think that sometimes we want to express concern
and because it feels urgent to us. We come out
with maybe a strong energy around it, make demand sometimes
you know, out of concern, but it's not as gentle
as as it may need to be. And so I
always say that how are you living your day to
(33:10):
day life and relationship with that person to show that
you're a safe space for them to acknowledge something that's
so difficult to even acknowledge within yourself that or yet
much less you know another person. And so for me
and my journey, that looked like who would push alcohol
on me in different social settings or not before I
(33:33):
stop drinking, but who would encourage me to drink? And
who would just kind of let me make my own
decisions about whether I drink or not. Who would I
do other fun things with outside of just drinking. Who
did I have that type of relationship with. How did
I see them interact with other people around mental health
struggles and addiction? Did I hear them show care and
(33:54):
compassion or did I hear them show judgment and and
play stereotypes on that person? So I would say, first
and foremost, make sure you're a safe person in the
ways that you are in relationship with that person In general,
and then from there. I think there are some ways
to express concern in a gentle way, and what we
know about addiction is sometimes you can we can get
(34:15):
into defending our addictions, being very reactive if someone brings
up a drinking problem, and so knowing that, going in
and finding some gentle ways to express concern that are
without judgment as much as possible, I think is a
helpful way, um to start the conversation, and then also
educating yourself on what this means, what this looks like,
(34:38):
what you can due to influence the situation, and what
ultimately is out of your control. I think it's helpful.
I've spent some years as a family therapist at some
treatment centers, and a lot of our work was around
knowing what they could and couldn't do for their loved one.
And so so many parents with their kids, they're like
they want them to be sober more than they're try.
(35:00):
I would want to be sober even if they're an
adult child. They would still you know, enable in certain ways,
and we'll pay for this, and we'll pay for that.
Just go to treatment, and you know, like all the
different ways that they would try to support them. They
thought they were supporting them, but really it was just
enabling the situation. So my role with them was just
to talk about what does it look like to have
healthy boundaries and almost at some points detached, detached from
(35:25):
needing to know and be in control of the situation.
Which is very hard and painful for us to do
is to see someone else suffering and feel like we
have to completely detach from watching them do so. But
in actuality is very important for the family or loved
ones recovery as well. You know, you have the person
with the drinking problem that has their own recovery, but
(35:46):
also the support and family for for that person also
have their own recovery process, and so boundaries is another
part of that work and realizing what am I responsible for?
What am I not responsible for? How can I influence
the situation without making it my responsibility to do the
work for them? I think a lot of times, like
(36:06):
after a friend has decided like they are going to
be sober, right, there is the this awkwardness around, like, okay,
do we not have alcohol at the functions anymore? Like, so,
what kinds of practical things can people really do to
help a friend who might be sober? I think that
because we see drinking problems as being taboo, even though
we're trying to work on, you know, making it a
(36:28):
more normal thing to address and deal with. Sometimes we
think that asking the person and recovery what they need,
it's kind of like, oh, I gotta figure it out
on my own and then hopefully it won't trigger them
or hopefully it's what they need, instead of just saying
what does that mean for you? What can I do
to support you? What feels comfortable to you? And with
every person it's going to be different. You know. I
(36:49):
know some people that are not bothered by other people
drinking around them, or some people who drink non alcoholic
beverages instead of alcoholic beverages, and then some people who
are like, I can't be around it at all. I've
got to completely, like start with the clean slate of
friends and people, places and things. And so really for
each person it's going to be different. So first and foremost,
(37:12):
I would say it's okay to not guess, and it's
okay to not know, and so ask them what would
be the most supportive for you right now, and know
that that may change a year from now, may not
be such an urgent cravings and that sort of thing,
and they may be able to be in certain spaces
and be okay, but it really depends. And some of
the things that usually are things that need to be
(37:35):
adapted would be can this person be around alcohol in general?
Would they prefer to not to have a sober or
dry wedding or a sober activity, and if so, being
the friend that's okay with that, because I think sometimes
we're afraid that our friends aren't gonna wanna make any
adjustments for us or sacrifice for us, so that it's
(37:56):
gonna be burdensome to ask. You know, my friend grew
to opt for something else other than the wine tasting
and the paintents, you know what I mean. And so
anytime you can just say, hey, I have plans for
us and it just naturally doesn't include alcohol, that is
the best because it's like you don't even have to
like worry about it. We're going hiking, you know, don't
(38:17):
have anything to do with alcohol. I think that's a
great way to do that. And also to be supportive
when they share with you. And so if someone says
I think I have a drinking problem and I wanted
to let you know. That means that they trust you,
and that means that they need your support. And so
(38:38):
I can't count how many times what a drinking problem?
Now you don't and it's like, but I'm telling you
that I do, and I need your support, you know,
in that moment. And so I think that's something that
folks can know. It's just if someone tells you that
accept them, love them. How can I support you? That's awesome,
that's great, that's great. I would love to support you
(38:59):
in doing that. What do you need for me? I
think it's a great way. M m yeah. You know.
Boundary where Kristen, I think is important in so many
different areas of like healing, right, but it seems like
it would be particularly important here, especially if you are
working to maintain your sobriety around like Okay, no, I
can't be in that kind of a situation, or please
don't invite me to these kinds of things, or even
(39:21):
like you just mentioned right, like if I say I
have a drinking problem, what does that bring up for
other people who maybe drink as much as I was? Right,
so now, because it feel like an indictment, and so
it feels like there needs to be some real boundary
work as a part of this recovery as well. Can
you say more about that? Yeah, I think that you know,
recovery is a beautiful, beautiful journey. I wouldn't trade mind
(39:42):
for the world, and I know so many women that,
even through the ups and downs, find it to be
worth it. But some of that can be hard. It's
because not everybody is ready to do what you need
them to do or what you would have them do
to support your recovery. And sometimes that does mean seeing
people less, it does bowing out of certain things based
on the day you've had. Like for me, if I've
(40:04):
had a rough week and it's not that I'm going
to go out and drink, but I just know mentally
and emotionally I've had a draining week, I tend to
not put myself. Even at six almost seven years sober,
I may opt out of going to the party with
the friends just because I know that I don't need that.
I don't need that extra stressor on me. Sometimes, you know,
(40:26):
you do have to end friendships or distance yourself from
certain people in order to protect your recovery. And there's
a grieving process with that, you know. But I think
that in recovery, you can come to have closure with
that and have peace around having to make those decisions,
because not everyone's going to be in a place where
they can support you in the ways that you need
(40:48):
to be supported, and it is very important that you
handle and manage your triggers people, places, and things, and
sometimes those people are once closest to you, and so
having those calm stations can be hard but very necessary. Yeah,
which is why going back to the original points around
why building this new community of people is so important,
(41:10):
right because there may be a loss of some other
people who can't support you in the ways that you
need to. Absolutely. Yeah, So you've already given us quite
a few great resources, Kristen, But I wonder if there
are any other books or podcasts or communities that you
think people should check out that might support them if
they're looking for sober resources. Yes, so, I would say, honestly,
(41:31):
the best one that I know is searching the sober
Black Women hashtag on Instagram. I know a lot of
women black women that use that. There's a lot of
accounts that I found from that. It's a great resource.
She recovers dot org. They're not a BIPOC specific group,
but they do have some meetings that are specifically for
BIPOC and so you can get connected there. So we
(41:54):
Black Girls Club is another. I think their website is
just Sober Black Girls Club dot com, but they also
have an Instagram. They host meetings several times a week.
And what is your website, christ and as well as
any social media handles you'd like to share. My website
is B three, so the letter be the number three
by Kristen dot com. And my Instagram handle is just
(42:15):
my name at Kristen Fimster. And so if you go
to my website, I do have a resources tab that
has a list of other meetings. They're not all specifically
for black women or people of color, but there is
a resource to get started, Like you mentioned podcasts and
recovery meetings and that sort of thing to just get
the ball rolling. And then all you have to do
is just get your foot in the door in one
(42:36):
of these spaces. You don't have to have all the
answers to start. You just need to open the door
and let someone else help you to guide you along.
And so anything that you can have where it's person
to person contact, I think will be the best bet
for moving forward with this and then growing from there perfect. Well,
thank you so much, christ and I really appreciate you
(42:57):
sharing so much with us today. Thank you, Thank you
are having me. I'm so glad that Kristen was able
to share her expertise with us today. To learn more
about her and her work, visit the show notes at
Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session two to three,
and don't forget to text two of your girls and
tell them to check out the episode right now. If
(43:18):
you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure
to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black
Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to
continue digging into this topic or just be in community
with other sisters, come on over and join us in
the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet
design just for black women. You can join us at
community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank you
(43:42):
all so much for joining me again this week. I
look forward to continue in this conversation with you all
real soon. Take good care,
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