September 15, 2021 • 42 mins
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
One factor that is critical to our mental health is proper sleep! But getting a good night’s rest sometimes seems easier said than done so to help us hopefully sleep a little better, this week we’re joined by Ibinye Osibodu-Onyali, LMFT. Ibinye and I chatted about some of the primary causes of insomnia, lifestyle choices that might make it difficult to sleep, how our sleep has changed during the pandemic, and she shares tips for how to improve sleep hygiene.
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https://www.thezinniapractice.com/
Twitter: @IOnyali
Instagram: @thezinniapractice
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Kay, Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a
weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the
small decisions we can make to become the best possible
(00:22):
versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope
you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it
(00:43):
is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship
with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so
much for joining me for session to the Therapy for
Let Girls Podcast. We'll get right into the episode after
(01:03):
a word from our sponsors. One factor that is critical
to our mental health is proper sleep, but getting a
good night's rest sometimes seems easier said than done. So
(01:23):
to help us hopefully sleep a little better today, we're
joined by Ebenia osibod On Yelli. Ebena is a licensed
marriage and family therapist into Mecula, California. Her practice focuses
on incorporating scripture into treatment, helping women struggling with anxiety,
self esteem issues, and difficulties with assertiveness. She also assists
(01:44):
women in finally falling and staying asleep utilizing cognitive behavioral
therapy for insomnia. She and I chatted about some of
the primary causes of insomnia, lifestyle choices that might make
it difficult to sleep, how are sleep has changed during
the pandemic make and she shares tips for how to
improve sleep hygiene. If something resonates with you while enjoying
(02:06):
our conversation, please be sure to share it with us
on social media using the hashtag TVG in Session. Here's
our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Vigner,
Thank you, Dr Joy. It's so good to be here. Yeah,
I'm very excited to chat with you. You know, sleep,
I think it's one of those things that is often
(02:27):
not paid enough attention to as it relates to mental health.
But we know that there are so many ways that
our mental health is actually impacted by sleep. So I
wonder if you can just get us started by talking
about some of the most common sleep disorders that clients
will come into the sessions with you for. Oftentimes it
is insomnia that's a huge one. They just cannot sleep.
(02:48):
Very rarely. It would be hypersomnia, sleeping way too much,
and sometimes clients are coming in with nightmares. What are
usually related to some type of underlying trauma going on.
Usually it's insomnia. That's a big one. Mm hmm. So
can you define insomnia for us? Okay, so how you
know that you have insomnia? Because people ask me this
(03:10):
all the time. So if you cannot fall asleep within
I'd say about an hour or stay asleep, and it's
been going on for more than two to three weeks,
then you do have insomnia. Because some people are like, well,
you know, I can have a job interview tomorrow and
I can't sleep. Well, that's more nerves than insomnia. So
(03:31):
it has to be going on for a while before
you can categorize it as insomnia. Mm hmmm. That's helpful.
The duration as well as like the time, that really
is helpful. So you've already mentioned like sometimes like stuff
like anxiety, right like we're worked up or stressed about
interview or a big day something happening. Can you see
a little bit more about some of the underlying causes
(03:51):
of it insomnia? Well, the first is physical, so it
could be hormones out of balance or some type of
a vitamin deficiency or health issues chronic pain, for example,
that would obviously keep you awake for a lot of people.
But when it comes to our mental health, it could
be trauma, trauma related, or it could be anxiety related,
(04:15):
it could be depression related, and sometimes there might be
also psychosis that's keeping you up at night. But the
first thing that I tell everybody is go to the
doctor first, and let's rule out all the physical stuff.
And if they determine that it's not physical, then we
can start to focus on the emotional. So I just
want to back up a second. So you mentioned hormones.
(04:37):
Can you say more about it? I feel so we
see this a lot in women who are pre menopausal,
or even some women who are not pre menopausal. Sometimes
their estrogen is out of whack, and I think this
is when a lot of women freak out in this
m I and menopause, and I'm like, relax, relax, relax,
(05:00):
go to the doctor first. And we also see this
in women who have pcos. Sometimes their hormones are out
of balance. But once they're able to get those hormones
in check, then we start doing some of those CBT
techniques good sleep hygiene to get them sleeping well. Again,
do we also or do you also see some of
this around minstrel cycles or there are changes and I
(05:22):
sleep that happened there. Yes, a lot of women don't
have PMS symptoms and they just cannot sleep. Sometimes it's
because of pain, or sometimes it's again those hormones are
out of whack during the menstrual cycles, and those women
usually send them to a functional medicine doctor for example,
who put them on supplements to just keep those hormones
more balanced so that they can sleep better. But yes,
(05:44):
that does happen at an EXACS because every month, for
a week they are struggling with insomnia. Mm hmmmmmm. So
you mentioned CBT as a wake after we have ruled
out anything physical, So I think that that's really important, right.
So it sounds like the first step is make making
sure you check with your primary care physician or whoever
takes care of your health to rule out anything physical.
(06:05):
And then is CBT typically like your first go to
work through things like insomnia. Yes, CBT is my absolute
go to, and because most people that struggle with insomnia
also have underlying anxiety, I'll also do some DBT as
well to help them with distress tolerance because it is
extremely stressful to be laying in the bed night after
(06:28):
night everyone is asleep and there you are just staring
at the ceiling. It's so anxiety provoking. So I'll do
some CBT around the thoughts. A lot of times there
are a lot of negative thoughts about I will never sleep,
I'm going to die because I cannot sleep, something bad
is going to happen to me, I'm gonna lose my job.
(06:49):
Like you just think about the worst possible thoughts, which
then worsens the stress. And when your body is under stress,
it's really hard for it to shut down at night.
So yes, CBT is my too for in some new work. Yeah,
and I want to back up a little bit because
we have alluded to you like the mental health impact
that not getting enough sleep haass. But I would love
for you to talk more in depth about like how
(07:11):
exactly does it look when we are not getting enough sleep?
Oh my goodness. So physically a lot of people are
getting chronic headaches or they just feel like they have
butterflies in there, telling me all the time it's nervous feeling,
but mentally it is this I would describe it as
angst like I cannot sleep and all I want is
(07:32):
to sleep, and there's this obsession with sleep, which also
comes with a fear about sleep. So all you can
think about is getting sleep, but you also fear night
time because in your mind you know you're not going
to sleep. And then it's this self fulfilling prophecy. See
I said it, My body will never shut down. And
(07:52):
that's when sometimes the anxiety and the depression around sleep
start to form. And then some people will actually develop
sleep phobia around this because they're terrified of evening time,
they're terrified of nighttime, and it's just really, really horrible.
And then of course your concentration is just completely gone,
(08:12):
your mood is shot, very quick tempered because you haven't slept.
You're exhausted all day long. Mm hmmm. Yeah. You know
when I talked to my clients sometimes about you know,
we know what happens to toddler's when they miss their naps, right,
and so if you think about like an adult version
of like a tantrum or or mildown, like, it sounds
like that's what you're describing. Absolutely, it's almost sad because
(08:35):
friends and loved ones don't understand. They say, why are
you so cranky? Why are you such a bad mood?
All because you didn't get enough sleep. But it's the
agony of just laying in the bed for hours, and
they often feel like they're the only ones going through this,
and loved ones often minimize it unfortunately, So I mean
you do. We typically see sleep issues like insomnia kind
(08:57):
of pop out out of kind of nowhere or there.
Typically something that like will trigger it. It's usually something
that triggers it. But when people come to me, they
often say, I've never been able to sleep. Well, that's
not true, because at some point you were sleeping. So
then we go all the way back and it's typically
something that happened. It could be a loved one, or
(09:19):
it could be a death of a loved one, or
it could be a big move or a very stressful job,
or maybe hormonal changes or physical changes or some type
of imbalance that's going on. So then my job is
to dig deep to figure out what triggered this and
then we can move forward from there. But typically something
happened to cause this, because most people were sleeping well
(09:42):
when they were five years old. So I always remind
them that I said, your body was able to sleep
at some point, so it will be able to sleep again.
We just have to figure out why it's not sleeping.
Mm hmmm. So can you walk me through maybe some
of the things that you do with clients to help them.
So you've already talked about using CBT kinds of techniques,
what kinds of thing things, and what kinds of questions
are you asking them? What kinds of strategies are you
(10:03):
working with them on to help them get better sleep.
So a lot of it is understanding the science of
sleep and understanding that our bodies are engineered to sleep,
because the first thing clients will say is I'm just
not one of those people who's able to sleep. And
so then when we rewind and say how are you sleeping,
when you retend, oh, I slept no problems, So your
(10:23):
body didn't know how to sleep at some point, right,
reassuring them first that your body will be able to
sleep eventually. And a lot of it is really just
tackling the negative thinking around sleep and the fears of
the bedroom, because a lot of my clients don't even
go into the bedroom anymore. They'll just go get changed
and then they go and sleep in the living room
or in the car or somewhere else because they're just
(10:46):
terrified of the bedroom. So then we have to do
a little bit of exposure therapy to get them comfortable
in the bedroom again. And then in addition to that
is it's a lot of sleep hygiene and lifestyle habits.
So a lot of people are doing things that are
triggering insomnia, but they don't know it, right, So the
(11:06):
drinking of the coffee at seven pm, or just living
in a dark cave. I always say, are you living
in a dark cave? Not wanting to expose our eyes
to sunlight? There's a reason why, because our body cycles
just go with sunlight. So when you expose your eyes
to sunlight in the morning, your body temperature rises, what
triggers some hormones to be produced, which keeps your wig
(11:29):
And then as the sun sets and it gets darker,
your body temperature falls, which then triggers melatonin to be produced.
So it's a lot of science things and then they're like, oh,
that makes sense, Okay, I can do that. So it's
just little tiny habits that we can change to encourage
our bodies to start to produce melatonin at the right time,
(11:49):
which is at nighttime. M hmmm. So I wonder if
there are other sninky kinds of things like I think
most of us are aware of, like coffee and caffeine,
But I think there are other things that, like the
lifestyle issues that you're talking about, that may be contributing
to us not getting enough sleep. What are some of
those other things? So exercise. A lot of people that
have insomnia just don't move anymore because they say I
(12:12):
have no energy. But exercising at the right time could
actually help your body trigger all the right chemicals so
that you can sleep at night, not laying in the
bed constantly, which as usual. They look at me like,
I'm only getting two hours of sleep at night, and
you're telling me to get out of the bed. Yes,
get out of the bed. Reason being, when you are
(12:34):
laying in the bed in agony, feeling anxious or depressed constantly,
your body begins to think that your bedroom is a
place of agony. Right, So, if you're laying in the
bed and say you haven't been able to sleep in
thirty minutes or one hour, get out of the bedroom.
Go out of the bedroom, go somewhere else to do
something else. Don't go up out there thinking about sleep
(12:57):
and worrying. Just go out there and do something else.
Read a book, you can watch some TV. I'm fine
with that. Come back in and you do the thirty
minutes on, thirty minutes off. First of all, that wears
you out. Second of all, that is really boring, and
eventually your body will just shut down because it's just
sick of the back and forth. I haven't had one
client successfully do that twice. By the time they leave
(13:18):
and come back, they're just like, I'm just I was
so exhausted, I fell asleep. So it's little things like that.
Or you know, as soon as you you get up
in the morning, open up your blinds or your pertinents
so that your eyes can hit sunlight, and don't linger
in the bed. So a lot of people with insomnia
are sleeping in too much. Get out of the bed
(13:39):
as soon as possible, within thirty minutes of waking up,
because when you're just laying in the bed awake, that
tells your body that your bedroom is a place of
work or wakefulness as opposed to a place of sleep.
Good sleepers often don't spend a ton of time in
the bedroom, but people with insomnia I find are like,
how long do you spend in a bedroom. They're spending
(14:01):
like ten twelve hours in the bedroom, So then your
body doesn't know that it's a place of sleep. It
thinks it's a place where you just wake up and lounge. Mmm.
So you mentioned like the right time for exercise. When
is the right time for us to exercise to make
sure we're like not messing up our sleep. Morning time
is usually best. Morning time is usually best because then
(14:21):
your body temperature rises, which then triggers wakefulness in the body.
But if you're not a morning person, as long as
you're not working out, I'd say within four hours of bedtime,
so early morning or mid morning or maybe early afternoon.
But if you struggle with insomnia, just ditch the evening
workout until your sleep has leveled off. Then you can
(14:43):
go back to working out in the evening because for
some people, working out actually energizes them. Mm hmmmmm, yeah.
I mean we hear about these endorphins, right, So you
do want to be careful not to get that boost
in endorphins when you're actually supposed to be laying down
exactly exactly, got it, got it? So you mentioned sleep hygeine,
which we use that term to talk about all the
(15:04):
things you need to do to have a nice bedtime routine.
Can you talk about what kinds of other things should
go into a sleep hygeene? Okay, so then if you
struggle with insomnia, it means that your body has a
hard time relaxing or shutting down. Some people's minds are
just so busy from the work day that they can't
just lay in the bed and shut it off. So
(15:25):
have an actual bedtime. A lot of adults are surprised
that I say this, have an actual bedtime. We have
bedtimes for our kids because it creates good structure. And
when you go to bed around the same time every
single day, your body produces melatonin around the same time
every single day, so it's predictability within your body. An
(15:47):
hour before bed, shut everything down normal electronics because those
electronics produce blue light, which for some people will prevent
melatonin production. Not everyone. Some people can stare at the
phone and five minutes later they're fast at sleep. I'm
one of those people, Like I could be in the
bed on the phone and then I'm like fastest. But
not everybody can do that. So shut down the phone
(16:08):
and start to create a routine that works for you.
For some people it is stretching. For other people it
is prayer or meditation. For other people it is taking
a nice, warm shower. Some people like a cold shower.
If that works for you, great, drinking a nice you know,
cup of tea, something relaxing. You know you don't want
(16:28):
coffee at night. Doing something that just feels relaxing, and
then just gently go into the bedroom. You can do
some like reading. Now a word about reading, do not.
I had a client tell me she listens to murder
podcasts before a bit, and I'm like, and you're wondering
why you're having these dreams And then she was like, oh,
(16:51):
I'm like no, no, ladies, And I know we love
our murder podcast, but probably not at nighttime. You don't
want to listen to, or watch or discuss anything that
is anxiety provoking or scary. So those horror movies that
we love to watch at night, Dateline and all those
scary things not at night. So you want to think
relaxation even about your bedroom. When you walk into your bedroom,
(17:15):
what feelings come up for you? Do you look at
your bedroom and go I hate this place. And you
don't have to spend a ton of money or anything
like that. Let go of the clutter. If you can
let some light in in the morning, you know, spruce
up the place a little bit. Invest in some soft sheets. Again,
these things do not have to cost a lot of money.
(17:36):
I'm not someone who's like go and splurage and by
the most expensive threadcount. Nothing like that. Just sheets that
don't feel itchy. Even what do you wear to sleep?
Is it comfortable? I'm a fan of cutting because it's breathable. Right.
You can do some candles that have nice smells, like lavender,
for example, cedar. Would those really help with relaxation and calm?
(17:58):
Putting on music or sounds of nature. You want to
think about creating a spa environment in your bedroom, So
think about sights, sounds, smells, and touch and maybe even
taste if you're someone who likes to drink tea, So
think about all of those things when you walk into
the bedroom. You want it to signal this is a
(18:21):
place of risk. And also dim the lights at night
so that your brain begins to understand that it's time
to begin to wind out. More from my conversation with
Eben after the break. So you talked about the devices, right,
(18:44):
and I think it's become even harder because a lot
of us use our devices as like an alarm clock
and you know, that kind of thing. But I'd love
to hear your thoughts about like how the devices have
impacted us. You know, you already mentioned the blue light,
but also your thoughts about like televisions in the bedroom.
I I am not a fan bedroom. I am not
(19:04):
a fan of televisions in the bedroom, especially if you
have a streaming service, because they will just automatically go
to the next episode and then the next thing, it's
been five hours of your prime show and you're like,
oh my gosh, why am I still awake? Right, So,
I'm not a fan of TV in the bedroom. Except
you have the most self control possible, then sure, and
(19:29):
you know you're gonna just shut it down by your bedtime.
But that being said, though, for some people when they
cannot sleep at night, I do advise them to just
watch like the most boring TV show ever, because that
is not stimulating to them at all and that will
help their minds shut down. Or for some people they
say that they can't fall asleep without the flickering light
(19:51):
of the TV. So if you're one of those people,
sure do that, but just make sure that you have
the TV on low so that you're not hearing that
blurring s out all night long. But I'm not a
fan of TV's in the bed. The bedroom is for sleep, rest,
and sex. That's it, nothing else. So this as the
blue light. Are there other ways that, like our phones
(20:12):
and our computers are maybe impacting our sleep. Yes, so
a lot of us have a dependency on our devices.
It's now like a third limb or fifth limb at
this point. We just wake up in the morning and
the first thing we do is we reach our phones,
reach for our phones, or we reach for our tablets.
So what I often advise my clients is not to
put your phone on the nightstand. So I know that
(20:34):
for most of us our phones are alarmed, I'd say
put it across the room. So what that does is
that forces you to actually get out of the bed
and then go out there to reach it. So that's
what I always say about the phones. But the phones
just create this dependency. And so what I would say
with that is to go into your phone settings and
(20:55):
create some type of parameters so that you're not staring
at the phone. And another thing that's also helpful is
to go in there and to check your screen time
because when you see how many when you see how
many hours and I and I speak for myself, when
I see how many hours, and I'm like, what what
(21:18):
are you doing? So that creates checks and balances, right,
And for some clients, I would say to even do
a social media fast because if you're finding that you're
just on there constantly, I say delete social media for
a week and see how you feel and see how
it impactious sleep, because it's the idea of did they
like my picture, did they like my picture? Did they
comment on the picture? What are they doing, what are
(21:38):
they doing, where they're doing, And you're just thinking about
that constantly, and that almost creates some anxiety for some people,
just waiting and watching and watching to see how many
people like me, how many people followed me, and all
of that stuff. So it's just that dependency that instead
of resting, your wondering, that fear of missing out continues
(21:59):
to have and like, what's going on in social media?
I can't I can't shut down down because I just
got to know who liked the picture? But that's a
big thing that I see. M mmmmmm. I think a
lot of times when people struggle with sleep at night,
you will hear them talking about, like taking naps during
the day. Is it possible for you to catch up
on the sleep that you missed at night by taking
naps during the day. And if we are a napper,
(22:22):
what kind of parameter should we have around naps? Okay, So, unfortunately,
once you've missed out on sleep, you've missed there is
no catching up. There is no catching up. Unfortunately. However, though,
when you've missed out on sleep after a while, after
a few days, your body will then create this really
(22:43):
hard drive for sleep. So let's say you win three
solid nights with only two hours of sleep. By about
the fourth or fit night, you find that suddenly you
slept eight hours straight because your body is it has
this drive to self protect and actually fall asleep. So
that's what I tell people is don't worry about about
the fortnight. You will fall asleep. Now, naps are fine
(23:03):
as long as you're not napping for more than forty
five minutes to an hour at a time and not
too close to bedtime. So if your bedtime is ten PM,
for example, don't take that nap at seven because you'll
be too awake and alert by ten pm. Now, with naps,
I say, don't make that a routine for yourself, because
(23:24):
for some people, when they take too many naps during
the week, by nighttime, they're just not tired enough. So
you want to wear yourself out enough so that by
your bedtime you are visibly exhausted, you're yawning, you're blinking,
you can't pay attention to conversation. But naps are fine
as long as they're not for longer than forty five
minutes to an hour and not too close to bedtime.
(23:45):
That's not so great. Okay, okay, perfect, So nap time,
we can keep that in our schedules. Yes, yes, yes,
set an alarm. Okay, alarm right, because that I was
just like trying to take a nap and wake up
and it's two hours later, So the alarm part it
sounds like it's helpful. So being yea, you've talked about
how our difficulties sleeping sometimes comes from a place of
(24:08):
anxiety or maybe we're depressed, and I know, you know,
setting up the routines is an important part of getting
good sleep. But sometimes anxiety and depression make it so
that you don't have right, like the motivation to do
these routines. And so we don't want people to like
feel like they're failing, right like they get an if
in their sleep hygiene. So what kinds of things might
be helpful? You know, people are struggling with those concerns.
(24:30):
So the first thing that I tell clients is that
this is going to be a process, and when you're
creating new routines, it is going to be difficult for you. Right,
there's no past, there's no fail, you're not being graded,
you're not being judged. So I actually create the routine
with them like I would actually run through the day
(24:51):
with them, and then we just picked the tiniest little
change that they can make. And I don't ask them
to change it every single day because I know, if
you don't have motivate asian, how are you going to
do this every single day? And we just pick one
day a week. So let's pick one day a week
where you can just get out of the bed for
five minutes and then you can just make your way
back in. So that way they get to see that
(25:12):
they can do it. So it's definitely something that I
prepare them for and it is important. The one thing
that I didn't mention is when you're doing the CBT
for insomnia, if there is that anxiety and the depression,
it is important that that is being treated as well.
So working on the two things at the same time,
because you can't really treat one without the other. So
(25:35):
helping them to just realize that, you know, if you
can just do this one time this week, that is success.
And with the praise. I'm always big with the praise,
and you know, with time, they begin to see that
they actually are mastering these habits. I want to go
back to some of your comments around like social media
and thinking about people who work in digital spaces, right,
(25:56):
So thinking about journalists and other content creators who really
are required to be online most of the day. I
wonder if you have thoughts about how they protect sleep
when they maybe are required to be online, maybe more
than most of us. So if that is part of
your work, then you know it is what it is,
and that is why having that strict bedtime and making
(26:20):
sure that when you're not supposed to be working, you're
off social media, right, So have that strict bedtime and
have that wine down time thirty minutes to an hour
before bedtime so that your mind can kind of calm
down from the activity and the hustle and bustle of
the day. And during your wine down time, do not
(26:40):
touch the phone. M Thank you. That's helpful. You know
something else I've been thinking about even and I wonder
if this has come up in your practice, just this
idea of like grind and hustle culture, right, and how
that has really impacted I think a lot of people's
relationship with sleep. I wonder if you have thoughts or
if this is something that you've had to addres us
with clients in your practice. Yes, I am a fan
(27:05):
of hustle culture. I am not a fan of hustle
culture at all. Our bodies need to rest our, bodies
need to sleep, and we do work a lot around
that guilt that comes with sleeping and the guilt that
comes with rest, especially for people who are you know,
entrepreneurial running their own businesses like I need to be
going and going and going and going and teaching them
(27:26):
the value of rest and working around where they got
the idea of what hustle is and where they got
the idea of risk being bad and kind of like
doing some CBT around that as well. But hustle culture
really definitely does contribute to insomnia because I hear this
idea of like I only sleep three hours a day, yeah,
(27:46):
and I'm like, that's not a good thing your body, right,
So we work around those pieces and teaching them really
to listen to their bodies. If you're tired, you should
probably sleep because your mood will be better in the
morning and you'll be much more creative too. Mm hmmm. Yeah.
And it seems like an extension of that is really
(28:07):
kind of viewing like sleep as a reward, like if
I do this last two things am I to do list,
then I can go to bed. Right, So there's some
CBT kinds of things that can help with like breaking
that kind of an idea as well. Yes, we talk
about what sleep is for in reality, what is sleep for.
Sleep is really just to redriven at your body. Sleep
is like air. Sleep is like food. Your body needs food,
(28:28):
Like you cannot go without food and survive. You cannot
go without sleep and survive. And we just do some
affirmations around that my body needs sleep. I'm a valued
person and my body needs sleep, and sleep is not
I don't love the idea of sleep as a reward.
Like sleep, it's just the thing we should be doing
because our bodies needed, you know, because I love myself,
(28:50):
I sleep. So we do a lot of affirmations around
that as well, and you know, with time, eventually hopefully
they do learn to just value sleep for just for
what it is. More from my conversation with Ebenna after
the break, so I love to talk a little bit
(29:15):
of Bana about how our sleep has changed throughout the pandemic.
Lots of people have been kind of studying our sleep.
The American Academy of Sleep Medicine found that twenty percent
of Americans said they had trouble sleeping because of the pandemic.
And then they repeated the survey ten months later in March,
and sleep problems had only gotten worse. So roughly sixty
(29:37):
of people said they struggle with pandemic related insomnia. So
I wonder if that has come up in your practice
and maybe just things that you have observed about our
sleep during the pandemic. Oh yeah, So a lot of
people transition from working outside of the home to working
from their bedrooms, and the one rule that I have
for my client is get out of your bedroom. And
(29:58):
so then became the struggle of but now my bedroom
is my workspace. What do I do? So if you
find that your bedroom is your workspace, create an actual
workspace that's off of the bed. So you can't change
that the bedroom is the workspace, but just carve out
a little you know, nook if you can, if you
do have the space, and let that be your actual workspace.
(30:21):
And also really stick with those guidelines of no napping
all day long. And when you're off of work, leave
your bedroom if you can, and just go to the kitchen,
or go to the living room, or go wherever. If
you live in a studio apartment, again it is what
it is, but just walk away from that work niche
(30:42):
That way your brain can separate the difference between work
and home basically. But what I've noticed is that because
of the high anxiety of the pandemic, many people are
worried about their health, and people are worried about income,
and there's so many things going on and families are
on top of each other. So a lot of it
(31:02):
was the anxiety about the pandemic, and that big transition
from we were able to just move around freely to
being a little bit more restricted in our movement. So
a lot of the anxiety brought on really really hard insomnia,
and a lot of people who were really good about
sleep hygiene, all of that just felled by the wayside.
And even something as simple as transitioning from work closed
(31:25):
to sleep close because we were in our pajama We
were in our pajamas, so there was no mental transition
because you know, in the non pandemic world, you know,
we would work outside of the home, a lot of us,
and then in the evening or whenever it is, we're
off our shifts, we drive back home or walk back home,
(31:46):
and then we transition our minds into the bedroom. But
when they're blurred lines, everything just becomes very scattered. But
if you can just continue to maintain that bedtime and
continue to maintain the good sleep hygiene, continue to create
a RESTful sleep environment, than your sleep will not be
impacted too much by the pandemic. Got it, Okay? So
(32:10):
something else that I have noticed, there's been more commentary around.
I had not heard this term before the pandemic is
so I want to know if you have so this
term revenge bed time procrastination. Have you heard of it?
So you had you heard of that before the pandemic? Yes, yes,
that before, but well yeah, I was like, oh my gosh,
(32:32):
there's a name for this thing that I have been doing.
And I definitely noticed it more in myself, you know,
since the pandemic. Can you see a little bit about
what revenge bed time procrastination is? So it's that idea
of It's almost like when a child throws the tantrum. No,
I will not go to bed. I'm gonna stay up,
but I'm going to watch my show because I'm an adult. Right,
So we know we should be going to bed because
(32:54):
we have a busy day tomorrow, but we choose to
just do all of the fun things because maybe our
days were just fact and we feel like we haven't
had enough fun in the day. Although it feels great
to do that, but then remind yourself about how you
will feel in the morning when you're not getting enough sleep. Now,
(33:14):
I know a lot of these parameters just sounds super strict, right,
because people are like, well, I'm an adult, I should
be able to go to bed whenever I want. Yes,
you should, so you can give yourself one or two
cheat days. Give yourself one or two cheat days where
you're like, you know what, on Tuesday and on Thursday,
I'm going to go to bed whenever I want. But
in all the other days I will follow my strict
(33:35):
bedtime routine because I often say that our bodies are
like machines, and they like predictability, and they like structure,
and they just like the same old, same old, boring lifestyle.
It's boring to have a bedtime, and it's not huge.
Nobody wants to say I have a bedtime. But give
yourself one or two cheat days to stay up till
whenever you want. But the other five days of the week,
(33:57):
you got to be really good about your sleeps so
that your body isn't confused, because the body often will
get confused. M hmmm. You know, I can't believe I
didn't ask you this question, But how much sleep should
we be getting? Like how much on average and an
adult beginning? So the golden number is actually seven hours. However, however,
(34:19):
I know I'm always like, I'm a woman of science,
and then sometimes I would say those seven to nine hours,
because most people do not feel refreshed after seven hours
of sleep. So I think this should be on a
case by case individual basis. If you tend to get
seven hours of sleep and you wake up and you
(34:39):
feel just great, then great, continue with your seven hours.
But if you feel like seven hours aren't enough, then
go up to eight. If eight isn't enough, then go
up to nine. Some people even need closer to ten.
Whatever works for your body. Mm hmmmm. So I know
e being that you are not um a physician, you
do not prescribe any medication, but I would just love
to hear your thoughts because I'm sure you have to
(35:00):
come in maybe using things like platonin or over the
counter sleep aids. Can you talk a little bit about
like when maybe people should consider those or why maybe
they should stay away from that, and when maybe they
would want to talk with the psychiatrist or their primary
care physician about like a sleepaide that is prescribed. Okay, Personally,
I am not a fan of sleep aids because I
(35:23):
believe that our bodies are wired to sleep, and if
we do all of the right things, our bodies will
naturally just heal and be able to sleep. However, though,
if your doctor has ruled out all the physical things
and if we've tried all of the holistic things and
the cbt s and the dbt s and the relaxations
(35:43):
and all the sleep hygiene and it's still not working,
then I would say, you know, go to your physician
and definitely get a prescription. However, though, a word about
those sleeping pills is that they don't actually cure insomnia,
because in my mind, it here means you're not gonna
need to sleep aid anymore. Your body wouldn't be doing
what it's supposed to be doing, and then it will
(36:05):
just go away. And for a lot of people it
creates dependency, and there's a lot of side effects and
the headaches and feeling like a zombie and grogginess and
poor concentration forgetfulness. So a lot of people just have
really bad side effects, even from melotonin, which really surprises
me because melatonin is over the counter, but a lot
(36:27):
of people just have, you know, bad side effects from it.
But if you've tried all of the things and nothing
is working, then I'd much rather you, of course take
a prescription and get the sleep that you deserve than
just suffer through. Mm hmmm. That's an important note. So
you've already talked about a couple of things, having sheets
(36:48):
that are not scratchy, and you know those kinds of things.
Maybe smells that are comforting to you and induce sleep.
Are there other things that you have suggested as the
clients or that clients have said, oh this really helped me,
that we've I want to consider adding to our sleep hygiene.
So a lot of clients really focus on their thoughts
around sleep and their fears around sleep because for a
(37:11):
lot of clients, they feel like their bodies have betrayed them.
So a lot of my work is helping them understand
that your body is your friend. And I think that
has been the biggest light bulb for most of my
clients is my body is actually trying to help me.
I said, yes, your body wants to sleep, your body
craves sleep right and letting them know that you are
(37:31):
your own sleep expert, and that is the most important thing,
is realizing listen to your body. If your doctor puts
you on a pill and it's not working for you,
let your doctor no, it's not working. If somebody is
telling you should only be sleeping eight hours, but you
feel like nine hours is more like it, and sleep
for nine hours. I know I talk about naps, but
if you're napping every single day and it's not impacting
(37:53):
you at night, then keep napping every single day. You know,
if you're sleeping six hours and it seems to work
for you, then it's fine. So listen to your body.
That is the biggest thing is I say, I'm going
to hear to guide you. I don't know your body
as well as you know your body. Right, if you
take melatonin every single night and it seems to work, well,
you don't get headaches, you're not groggy, it feels good.
(38:15):
Do what works for you. So know your body. Listen
to your body and focus on those thoughts about sleep
and that fear about sleep. A lot of it is
really you know, the mental the I cannot sleep, I'm
not good at sleeping. My body is betraying me. My
body will never sleep, my body will never shut down,
and trying to combat those thoughts with my body does
(38:38):
know how to sleep, and it's going to sleep again,
because again, those negative thoughts trigger stress, and our bodies
have a hard time shutting down when they're under stress.
So you know, something that just came to mind is
you know, if you are sleeping with someone right, like
maybe a partner or other kids. If you're having sleep problems,
(38:59):
then is likely that their sleep is also being invetive.
It's I wonder if there are things that you can
suggest about, like how we might help a loved one
who might be struggling with sleep issues. Are there things
we can do to help? Oh? Yes, Oh absolutely so.
If you're sharing a bed with someone, let them know
that you're struggling, and let them know that you're trying
to create this new structure. Because for a lot of clients,
(39:21):
they'll say, my partners in the bed and they have
YouTube on and it's loud, or my partners in the
bed and they're just real sweaty and all that, or
it's just really hot in here and I'm uncomfortable. So
starting to have those conversations around what you need for sleep,
like these sheets are not working for me anymore? Can
we try something else? Or you coming into the room
(39:42):
in and out at two am and three am and
odd hours isn't working for me anymore. Can we meet
in the middle. I need quiet time from this time
to this time. Is that something that you can do?
Or can you put headphones on when you're listening to YouTube,
or can you make sure that the TV in the
bedroom is off and you watch a on your phone
or something. So having those conversations around what you need
(40:04):
and helping them understand the emotional impact of insomnia, because
if you have never struggled with insomnia, it's really hard
to understand the emotional and physical toll that it takes.
So just opening those lines of conversation so that they
can cater to you and your needs. Thank you for that.
(40:25):
So are there other resources that you typically share with
clients or things that are kind of go to us
for you to help people kind of learn some of
this stuff. Yes, yes, yes, YouTube is a big one.
There are like a million relaxation videos on there. There
are million body scans. I'm a fan of deep breathing
and body scans and relaxation. Some of my clients love
(40:48):
a s MR slicely just go on YouTube and just
type it a s MR and just pick the one
that you like. Go on YouTube and go to guided meditation,
go on YouTube and look up yoga. So they are
finding resources that works well for them. And usually most
of my clients will just pick the one and they
do that every single nine. I'm like, if it works
(41:10):
for you, keep doing it. I think that is super important.
So YouTube. I also love the calm app. That's a
big one, and I love Headspace as well. But I'm
a big fan of YouTube because it's free. You don't
have to subscribe to anything, you don't have to pay anything.
It's right there at your fingertips. Perfect. We'll be sure
to include those in the show notes. So tell us
where we can find you. What is your website as
(41:32):
well as any social media handles you'd like to share.
So my website is the Zennia Practice dot com and
I'm on Facebook and Instagram at the Zenia Practice as well.
In Zenia z I N N I A. And no,
my name is not Zennia because people call me Zennia
all the time. So yeah, that's how you can find me. Perfect. Well,
(41:55):
we really appreciate you sharing all this helpful information to
help us get a little bit better at sleep being.
I thank you. It was really great to be here
with you. I'm so glad that was able to share
her expertise with us today. To learn more about her
and her work, visit the show notes that Therapy for
Black Girls dot com slash session two to five, and
(42:16):
don't forget to text two of your girls and tell
them to check out the episode as well. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to
check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls
dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue
digging into this topic or just be in community with
other sisters, come on over and join us in the
Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet design
(42:38):
just for black women. You can join us at community
dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank y'all so
much for joining me again this week. I look forward
to continue in this conversation with you all real soon.
Take it care
Kay, Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a
weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the
small decisions we can make to become the best possible
(00:22):
versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope
you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it
(00:43):
is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship
with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so
much for joining me for session to the Therapy for
Let Girls Podcast. We'll get right into the episode after
(01:03):
a word from our sponsors. One factor that is critical
to our mental health is proper sleep, but getting a
good night's rest sometimes seems easier said than done. So
(01:23):
to help us hopefully sleep a little better today, we're
joined by Ebenia osibod On Yelli. Ebena is a licensed
marriage and family therapist into Mecula, California. Her practice focuses
on incorporating scripture into treatment, helping women struggling with anxiety,
self esteem issues, and difficulties with assertiveness. She also assists
(01:44):
women in finally falling and staying asleep utilizing cognitive behavioral
therapy for insomnia. She and I chatted about some of
the primary causes of insomnia, lifestyle choices that might make
it difficult to sleep, how are sleep has changed during
the pandemic make and she shares tips for how to
improve sleep hygiene. If something resonates with you while enjoying
(02:06):
our conversation, please be sure to share it with us
on social media using the hashtag TVG in Session. Here's
our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Vigner,
Thank you, Dr Joy. It's so good to be here. Yeah,
I'm very excited to chat with you. You know, sleep,
I think it's one of those things that is often
(02:27):
not paid enough attention to as it relates to mental health.
But we know that there are so many ways that
our mental health is actually impacted by sleep. So I
wonder if you can just get us started by talking
about some of the most common sleep disorders that clients
will come into the sessions with you for. Oftentimes it
is insomnia that's a huge one. They just cannot sleep.
(02:48):
Very rarely. It would be hypersomnia, sleeping way too much,
and sometimes clients are coming in with nightmares. What are
usually related to some type of underlying trauma going on.
Usually it's insomnia. That's a big one. Mm hmm. So
can you define insomnia for us? Okay, so how you
know that you have insomnia? Because people ask me this
(03:10):
all the time. So if you cannot fall asleep within
I'd say about an hour or stay asleep, and it's
been going on for more than two to three weeks,
then you do have insomnia. Because some people are like, well,
you know, I can have a job interview tomorrow and
I can't sleep. Well, that's more nerves than insomnia. So
(03:31):
it has to be going on for a while before
you can categorize it as insomnia. Mm hmmm. That's helpful.
The duration as well as like the time, that really
is helpful. So you've already mentioned like sometimes like stuff
like anxiety, right like we're worked up or stressed about
interview or a big day something happening. Can you see
a little bit more about some of the underlying causes
(03:51):
of it insomnia? Well, the first is physical, so it
could be hormones out of balance or some type of
a vitamin deficiency or health issues chronic pain, for example,
that would obviously keep you awake for a lot of people.
But when it comes to our mental health, it could
be trauma, trauma related, or it could be anxiety related,
(04:15):
it could be depression related, and sometimes there might be
also psychosis that's keeping you up at night. But the
first thing that I tell everybody is go to the
doctor first, and let's rule out all the physical stuff.
And if they determine that it's not physical, then we
can start to focus on the emotional. So I just
want to back up a second. So you mentioned hormones.
(04:37):
Can you say more about it? I feel so we
see this a lot in women who are pre menopausal,
or even some women who are not pre menopausal. Sometimes
their estrogen is out of whack, and I think this
is when a lot of women freak out in this
m I and menopause, and I'm like, relax, relax, relax,
(05:00):
go to the doctor first. And we also see this
in women who have pcos. Sometimes their hormones are out
of balance. But once they're able to get those hormones
in check, then we start doing some of those CBT
techniques good sleep hygiene to get them sleeping well. Again,
do we also or do you also see some of
this around minstrel cycles or there are changes and I
(05:22):
sleep that happened there. Yes, a lot of women don't
have PMS symptoms and they just cannot sleep. Sometimes it's
because of pain, or sometimes it's again those hormones are
out of whack during the menstrual cycles, and those women
usually send them to a functional medicine doctor for example,
who put them on supplements to just keep those hormones
more balanced so that they can sleep better. But yes,
(05:44):
that does happen at an EXACS because every month, for
a week they are struggling with insomnia. Mm hmmmmmm. So
you mentioned CBT as a wake after we have ruled
out anything physical, So I think that that's really important, right.
So it sounds like the first step is make making
sure you check with your primary care physician or whoever
takes care of your health to rule out anything physical.
(06:05):
And then is CBT typically like your first go to
work through things like insomnia. Yes, CBT is my absolute
go to, and because most people that struggle with insomnia
also have underlying anxiety, I'll also do some DBT as
well to help them with distress tolerance because it is
extremely stressful to be laying in the bed night after
(06:28):
night everyone is asleep and there you are just staring
at the ceiling. It's so anxiety provoking. So I'll do
some CBT around the thoughts. A lot of times there
are a lot of negative thoughts about I will never sleep,
I'm going to die because I cannot sleep, something bad
is going to happen to me, I'm gonna lose my job.
(06:49):
Like you just think about the worst possible thoughts, which
then worsens the stress. And when your body is under stress,
it's really hard for it to shut down at night.
So yes, CBT is my too for in some new work. Yeah,
and I want to back up a little bit because
we have alluded to you like the mental health impact
that not getting enough sleep haass. But I would love
for you to talk more in depth about like how
(07:11):
exactly does it look when we are not getting enough sleep?
Oh my goodness. So physically a lot of people are
getting chronic headaches or they just feel like they have
butterflies in there, telling me all the time it's nervous feeling,
but mentally it is this I would describe it as
angst like I cannot sleep and all I want is
(07:32):
to sleep, and there's this obsession with sleep, which also
comes with a fear about sleep. So all you can
think about is getting sleep, but you also fear night
time because in your mind you know you're not going
to sleep. And then it's this self fulfilling prophecy. See
I said it, My body will never shut down. And
(07:52):
that's when sometimes the anxiety and the depression around sleep
start to form. And then some people will actually develop
sleep phobia around this because they're terrified of evening time,
they're terrified of nighttime, and it's just really, really horrible.
And then of course your concentration is just completely gone,
(08:12):
your mood is shot, very quick tempered because you haven't slept.
You're exhausted all day long. Mm hmmm. Yeah. You know
when I talked to my clients sometimes about you know,
we know what happens to toddler's when they miss their naps, right,
and so if you think about like an adult version
of like a tantrum or or mildown, like, it sounds
like that's what you're describing. Absolutely, it's almost sad because
(08:35):
friends and loved ones don't understand. They say, why are
you so cranky? Why are you such a bad mood?
All because you didn't get enough sleep. But it's the
agony of just laying in the bed for hours, and
they often feel like they're the only ones going through this,
and loved ones often minimize it unfortunately, So I mean
you do. We typically see sleep issues like insomnia kind
(08:57):
of pop out out of kind of nowhere or there.
Typically something that like will trigger it. It's usually something
that triggers it. But when people come to me, they
often say, I've never been able to sleep. Well, that's
not true, because at some point you were sleeping. So
then we go all the way back and it's typically
something that happened. It could be a loved one, or
(09:19):
it could be a death of a loved one, or
it could be a big move or a very stressful job,
or maybe hormonal changes or physical changes or some type
of imbalance that's going on. So then my job is
to dig deep to figure out what triggered this and
then we can move forward from there. But typically something
happened to cause this, because most people were sleeping well
(09:42):
when they were five years old. So I always remind
them that I said, your body was able to sleep
at some point, so it will be able to sleep again.
We just have to figure out why it's not sleeping.
Mm hmmm. So can you walk me through maybe some
of the things that you do with clients to help them.
So you've already talked about using CBT kinds of techniques,
what kinds of thing things, and what kinds of questions
are you asking them? What kinds of strategies are you
(10:03):
working with them on to help them get better sleep.
So a lot of it is understanding the science of
sleep and understanding that our bodies are engineered to sleep,
because the first thing clients will say is I'm just
not one of those people who's able to sleep. And
so then when we rewind and say how are you sleeping,
when you retend, oh, I slept no problems, So your
(10:23):
body didn't know how to sleep at some point, right,
reassuring them first that your body will be able to
sleep eventually. And a lot of it is really just
tackling the negative thinking around sleep and the fears of
the bedroom, because a lot of my clients don't even
go into the bedroom anymore. They'll just go get changed
and then they go and sleep in the living room
or in the car or somewhere else because they're just
(10:46):
terrified of the bedroom. So then we have to do
a little bit of exposure therapy to get them comfortable
in the bedroom again. And then in addition to that
is it's a lot of sleep hygiene and lifestyle habits.
So a lot of people are doing things that are
triggering insomnia, but they don't know it, right, So the
(11:06):
drinking of the coffee at seven pm, or just living
in a dark cave. I always say, are you living
in a dark cave? Not wanting to expose our eyes
to sunlight? There's a reason why, because our body cycles
just go with sunlight. So when you expose your eyes
to sunlight in the morning, your body temperature rises, what
triggers some hormones to be produced, which keeps your wig
(11:29):
And then as the sun sets and it gets darker,
your body temperature falls, which then triggers melatonin to be produced.
So it's a lot of science things and then they're like, oh,
that makes sense, Okay, I can do that. So it's
just little tiny habits that we can change to encourage
our bodies to start to produce melatonin at the right time,
(11:49):
which is at nighttime. M hmmm. So I wonder if
there are other sninky kinds of things like I think
most of us are aware of, like coffee and caffeine,
But I think there are other things that, like the
lifestyle issues that you're talking about, that may be contributing
to us not getting enough sleep. What are some of
those other things? So exercise. A lot of people that
have insomnia just don't move anymore because they say I
(12:12):
have no energy. But exercising at the right time could
actually help your body trigger all the right chemicals so
that you can sleep at night, not laying in the
bed constantly, which as usual. They look at me like,
I'm only getting two hours of sleep at night, and
you're telling me to get out of the bed. Yes,
get out of the bed. Reason being, when you are
(12:34):
laying in the bed in agony, feeling anxious or depressed constantly,
your body begins to think that your bedroom is a
place of agony. Right, So, if you're laying in the
bed and say you haven't been able to sleep in
thirty minutes or one hour, get out of the bedroom.
Go out of the bedroom, go somewhere else to do
something else. Don't go up out there thinking about sleep
(12:57):
and worrying. Just go out there and do something else.
Read a book, you can watch some TV. I'm fine
with that. Come back in and you do the thirty
minutes on, thirty minutes off. First of all, that wears
you out. Second of all, that is really boring, and
eventually your body will just shut down because it's just
sick of the back and forth. I haven't had one
client successfully do that twice. By the time they leave
(13:18):
and come back, they're just like, I'm just I was
so exhausted, I fell asleep. So it's little things like that.
Or you know, as soon as you you get up
in the morning, open up your blinds or your pertinents
so that your eyes can hit sunlight, and don't linger
in the bed. So a lot of people with insomnia
are sleeping in too much. Get out of the bed
(13:39):
as soon as possible, within thirty minutes of waking up,
because when you're just laying in the bed awake, that
tells your body that your bedroom is a place of
work or wakefulness as opposed to a place of sleep.
Good sleepers often don't spend a ton of time in
the bedroom, but people with insomnia I find are like,
how long do you spend in a bedroom. They're spending
(14:01):
like ten twelve hours in the bedroom, So then your
body doesn't know that it's a place of sleep. It
thinks it's a place where you just wake up and lounge. Mmm.
So you mentioned like the right time for exercise. When
is the right time for us to exercise to make
sure we're like not messing up our sleep. Morning time
is usually best. Morning time is usually best because then
(14:21):
your body temperature rises, which then triggers wakefulness in the body.
But if you're not a morning person, as long as
you're not working out, I'd say within four hours of bedtime,
so early morning or mid morning or maybe early afternoon.
But if you struggle with insomnia, just ditch the evening
workout until your sleep has leveled off. Then you can
(14:43):
go back to working out in the evening because for
some people, working out actually energizes them. Mm hmmmmm, yeah.
I mean we hear about these endorphins, right, So you
do want to be careful not to get that boost
in endorphins when you're actually supposed to be laying down
exactly exactly, got it, got it? So you mentioned sleep hygeine,
which we use that term to talk about all the
(15:04):
things you need to do to have a nice bedtime routine.
Can you talk about what kinds of other things should
go into a sleep hygeene? Okay, so then if you
struggle with insomnia, it means that your body has a
hard time relaxing or shutting down. Some people's minds are
just so busy from the work day that they can't
just lay in the bed and shut it off. So
(15:25):
have an actual bedtime. A lot of adults are surprised
that I say this, have an actual bedtime. We have
bedtimes for our kids because it creates good structure. And
when you go to bed around the same time every
single day, your body produces melatonin around the same time
every single day, so it's predictability within your body. An
(15:47):
hour before bed, shut everything down normal electronics because those
electronics produce blue light, which for some people will prevent
melatonin production. Not everyone. Some people can stare at the
phone and five minutes later they're fast at sleep. I'm
one of those people, Like I could be in the
bed on the phone and then I'm like fastest. But
not everybody can do that. So shut down the phone
(16:08):
and start to create a routine that works for you.
For some people it is stretching. For other people it
is prayer or meditation. For other people it is taking
a nice, warm shower. Some people like a cold shower.
If that works for you, great, drinking a nice you know,
cup of tea, something relaxing. You know you don't want
(16:28):
coffee at night. Doing something that just feels relaxing, and
then just gently go into the bedroom. You can do
some like reading. Now a word about reading, do not.
I had a client tell me she listens to murder
podcasts before a bit, and I'm like, and you're wondering
why you're having these dreams And then she was like, oh,
(16:51):
I'm like no, no, ladies, And I know we love
our murder podcast, but probably not at nighttime. You don't
want to listen to, or watch or discuss anything that
is anxiety provoking or scary. So those horror movies that
we love to watch at night, Dateline and all those
scary things not at night. So you want to think
relaxation even about your bedroom. When you walk into your bedroom,
(17:15):
what feelings come up for you? Do you look at
your bedroom and go I hate this place. And you
don't have to spend a ton of money or anything
like that. Let go of the clutter. If you can
let some light in in the morning, you know, spruce
up the place a little bit. Invest in some soft sheets. Again,
these things do not have to cost a lot of money.
(17:36):
I'm not someone who's like go and splurage and by
the most expensive threadcount. Nothing like that. Just sheets that
don't feel itchy. Even what do you wear to sleep?
Is it comfortable? I'm a fan of cutting because it's breathable. Right.
You can do some candles that have nice smells, like lavender,
for example, cedar. Would those really help with relaxation and calm?
(17:58):
Putting on music or sounds of nature. You want to
think about creating a spa environment in your bedroom, So
think about sights, sounds, smells, and touch and maybe even
taste if you're someone who likes to drink tea, So
think about all of those things when you walk into
the bedroom. You want it to signal this is a
(18:21):
place of risk. And also dim the lights at night
so that your brain begins to understand that it's time
to begin to wind out. More from my conversation with
Eben after the break. So you talked about the devices, right,
(18:44):
and I think it's become even harder because a lot
of us use our devices as like an alarm clock
and you know, that kind of thing. But I'd love
to hear your thoughts about like how the devices have
impacted us. You know, you already mentioned the blue light,
but also your thoughts about like televisions in the bedroom.
I I am not a fan bedroom. I am not
(19:04):
a fan of televisions in the bedroom, especially if you
have a streaming service, because they will just automatically go
to the next episode and then the next thing, it's
been five hours of your prime show and you're like,
oh my gosh, why am I still awake? Right, So,
I'm not a fan of TV in the bedroom. Except
you have the most self control possible, then sure, and
(19:29):
you know you're gonna just shut it down by your bedtime.
But that being said, though, for some people when they
cannot sleep at night, I do advise them to just
watch like the most boring TV show ever, because that
is not stimulating to them at all and that will
help their minds shut down. Or for some people they
say that they can't fall asleep without the flickering light
(19:51):
of the TV. So if you're one of those people,
sure do that, but just make sure that you have
the TV on low so that you're not hearing that
blurring s out all night long. But I'm not a
fan of TV's in the bed. The bedroom is for sleep, rest,
and sex. That's it, nothing else. So this as the
blue light. Are there other ways that, like our phones
(20:12):
and our computers are maybe impacting our sleep. Yes, so
a lot of us have a dependency on our devices.
It's now like a third limb or fifth limb at
this point. We just wake up in the morning and
the first thing we do is we reach our phones,
reach for our phones, or we reach for our tablets.
So what I often advise my clients is not to
put your phone on the nightstand. So I know that
(20:34):
for most of us our phones are alarmed, I'd say
put it across the room. So what that does is
that forces you to actually get out of the bed
and then go out there to reach it. So that's
what I always say about the phones. But the phones
just create this dependency. And so what I would say
with that is to go into your phone settings and
(20:55):
create some type of parameters so that you're not staring
at the phone. And another thing that's also helpful is
to go in there and to check your screen time
because when you see how many when you see how
many hours and I and I speak for myself, when
I see how many hours, and I'm like, what what
(21:18):
are you doing? So that creates checks and balances, right,
And for some clients, I would say to even do
a social media fast because if you're finding that you're
just on there constantly, I say delete social media for
a week and see how you feel and see how
it impactious sleep, because it's the idea of did they
like my picture, did they like my picture? Did they
comment on the picture? What are they doing, what are
(21:38):
they doing, where they're doing, And you're just thinking about
that constantly, and that almost creates some anxiety for some people,
just waiting and watching and watching to see how many
people like me, how many people followed me, and all
of that stuff. So it's just that dependency that instead
of resting, your wondering, that fear of missing out continues
(21:59):
to have and like, what's going on in social media?
I can't I can't shut down down because I just
got to know who liked the picture? But that's a
big thing that I see. M mmmmmm. I think a
lot of times when people struggle with sleep at night,
you will hear them talking about, like taking naps during
the day. Is it possible for you to catch up
on the sleep that you missed at night by taking
naps during the day. And if we are a napper,
(22:22):
what kind of parameter should we have around naps? Okay, So, unfortunately,
once you've missed out on sleep, you've missed there is
no catching up. There is no catching up. Unfortunately. However, though,
when you've missed out on sleep after a while, after
a few days, your body will then create this really
(22:43):
hard drive for sleep. So let's say you win three
solid nights with only two hours of sleep. By about
the fourth or fit night, you find that suddenly you
slept eight hours straight because your body is it has
this drive to self protect and actually fall asleep. So
that's what I tell people is don't worry about about
the fortnight. You will fall asleep. Now, naps are fine
(23:03):
as long as you're not napping for more than forty
five minutes to an hour at a time and not
too close to bedtime. So if your bedtime is ten PM,
for example, don't take that nap at seven because you'll
be too awake and alert by ten pm. Now, with naps,
I say, don't make that a routine for yourself, because
(23:24):
for some people, when they take too many naps during
the week, by nighttime, they're just not tired enough. So
you want to wear yourself out enough so that by
your bedtime you are visibly exhausted, you're yawning, you're blinking,
you can't pay attention to conversation. But naps are fine
as long as they're not for longer than forty five
minutes to an hour and not too close to bedtime.
(23:45):
That's not so great. Okay, okay, perfect, So nap time,
we can keep that in our schedules. Yes, yes, yes,
set an alarm. Okay, alarm right, because that I was
just like trying to take a nap and wake up
and it's two hours later, So the alarm part it
sounds like it's helpful. So being yea, you've talked about
how our difficulties sleeping sometimes comes from a place of
(24:08):
anxiety or maybe we're depressed, and I know, you know,
setting up the routines is an important part of getting
good sleep. But sometimes anxiety and depression make it so
that you don't have right, like the motivation to do
these routines. And so we don't want people to like
feel like they're failing, right like they get an if
in their sleep hygiene. So what kinds of things might
be helpful? You know, people are struggling with those concerns.
(24:30):
So the first thing that I tell clients is that
this is going to be a process, and when you're
creating new routines, it is going to be difficult for you. Right,
there's no past, there's no fail, you're not being graded,
you're not being judged. So I actually create the routine
with them like I would actually run through the day
(24:51):
with them, and then we just picked the tiniest little
change that they can make. And I don't ask them
to change it every single day because I know, if
you don't have motivate asian, how are you going to
do this every single day? And we just pick one
day a week. So let's pick one day a week
where you can just get out of the bed for
five minutes and then you can just make your way
back in. So that way they get to see that
(25:12):
they can do it. So it's definitely something that I
prepare them for and it is important. The one thing
that I didn't mention is when you're doing the CBT
for insomnia, if there is that anxiety and the depression,
it is important that that is being treated as well.
So working on the two things at the same time,
because you can't really treat one without the other. So
(25:35):
helping them to just realize that, you know, if you
can just do this one time this week, that is success.
And with the praise. I'm always big with the praise,
and you know, with time, they begin to see that
they actually are mastering these habits. I want to go
back to some of your comments around like social media
and thinking about people who work in digital spaces, right,
(25:56):
So thinking about journalists and other content creators who really
are required to be online most of the day. I
wonder if you have thoughts about how they protect sleep
when they maybe are required to be online, maybe more
than most of us. So if that is part of
your work, then you know it is what it is,
and that is why having that strict bedtime and making
(26:20):
sure that when you're not supposed to be working, you're
off social media, right, So have that strict bedtime and
have that wine down time thirty minutes to an hour
before bedtime so that your mind can kind of calm
down from the activity and the hustle and bustle of
the day. And during your wine down time, do not
(26:40):
touch the phone. M Thank you. That's helpful. You know
something else I've been thinking about even and I wonder
if this has come up in your practice, just this
idea of like grind and hustle culture, right, and how
that has really impacted I think a lot of people's
relationship with sleep. I wonder if you have thoughts or
if this is something that you've had to addres us
with clients in your practice. Yes, I am a fan
(27:05):
of hustle culture. I am not a fan of hustle
culture at all. Our bodies need to rest our, bodies
need to sleep, and we do work a lot around
that guilt that comes with sleeping and the guilt that
comes with rest, especially for people who are you know,
entrepreneurial running their own businesses like I need to be
going and going and going and going and teaching them
(27:26):
the value of rest and working around where they got
the idea of what hustle is and where they got
the idea of risk being bad and kind of like
doing some CBT around that as well. But hustle culture
really definitely does contribute to insomnia because I hear this
idea of like I only sleep three hours a day, yeah,
(27:46):
and I'm like, that's not a good thing your body, right,
So we work around those pieces and teaching them really
to listen to their bodies. If you're tired, you should
probably sleep because your mood will be better in the
morning and you'll be much more creative too. Mm hmmm. Yeah.
And it seems like an extension of that is really
(28:07):
kind of viewing like sleep as a reward, like if
I do this last two things am I to do list,
then I can go to bed. Right, So there's some
CBT kinds of things that can help with like breaking
that kind of an idea as well. Yes, we talk
about what sleep is for in reality, what is sleep for.
Sleep is really just to redriven at your body. Sleep
is like air. Sleep is like food. Your body needs food,
(28:28):
Like you cannot go without food and survive. You cannot
go without sleep and survive. And we just do some
affirmations around that my body needs sleep. I'm a valued
person and my body needs sleep, and sleep is not
I don't love the idea of sleep as a reward.
Like sleep, it's just the thing we should be doing
because our bodies needed, you know, because I love myself,
(28:50):
I sleep. So we do a lot of affirmations around
that as well, and you know, with time, eventually hopefully
they do learn to just value sleep for just for
what it is. More from my conversation with Ebenna after
the break, so I love to talk a little bit
(29:15):
of Bana about how our sleep has changed throughout the pandemic.
Lots of people have been kind of studying our sleep.
The American Academy of Sleep Medicine found that twenty percent
of Americans said they had trouble sleeping because of the pandemic.
And then they repeated the survey ten months later in March,
and sleep problems had only gotten worse. So roughly sixty
(29:37):
of people said they struggle with pandemic related insomnia. So
I wonder if that has come up in your practice
and maybe just things that you have observed about our
sleep during the pandemic. Oh yeah, So a lot of
people transition from working outside of the home to working
from their bedrooms, and the one rule that I have
for my client is get out of your bedroom. And
(29:58):
so then became the struggle of but now my bedroom
is my workspace. What do I do? So if you
find that your bedroom is your workspace, create an actual
workspace that's off of the bed. So you can't change
that the bedroom is the workspace, but just carve out
a little you know, nook if you can, if you
do have the space, and let that be your actual workspace.
(30:21):
And also really stick with those guidelines of no napping
all day long. And when you're off of work, leave
your bedroom if you can, and just go to the kitchen,
or go to the living room, or go wherever. If
you live in a studio apartment, again it is what
it is, but just walk away from that work niche
(30:42):
That way your brain can separate the difference between work
and home basically. But what I've noticed is that because
of the high anxiety of the pandemic, many people are
worried about their health, and people are worried about income,
and there's so many things going on and families are
on top of each other. So a lot of it
(31:02):
was the anxiety about the pandemic, and that big transition
from we were able to just move around freely to
being a little bit more restricted in our movement. So
a lot of the anxiety brought on really really hard insomnia,
and a lot of people who were really good about
sleep hygiene, all of that just felled by the wayside.
And even something as simple as transitioning from work closed
(31:25):
to sleep close because we were in our pajama We
were in our pajamas, so there was no mental transition
because you know, in the non pandemic world, you know,
we would work outside of the home, a lot of us,
and then in the evening or whenever it is, we're
off our shifts, we drive back home or walk back home,
(31:46):
and then we transition our minds into the bedroom. But
when they're blurred lines, everything just becomes very scattered. But
if you can just continue to maintain that bedtime and
continue to maintain the good sleep hygiene, continue to create
a RESTful sleep environment, than your sleep will not be
impacted too much by the pandemic. Got it, Okay? So
(32:10):
something else that I have noticed, there's been more commentary around.
I had not heard this term before the pandemic is
so I want to know if you have so this
term revenge bed time procrastination. Have you heard of it?
So you had you heard of that before the pandemic? Yes, yes,
that before, but well yeah, I was like, oh my gosh,
(32:32):
there's a name for this thing that I have been doing.
And I definitely noticed it more in myself, you know,
since the pandemic. Can you see a little bit about
what revenge bed time procrastination is? So it's that idea
of It's almost like when a child throws the tantrum. No,
I will not go to bed. I'm gonna stay up,
but I'm going to watch my show because I'm an adult. Right,
So we know we should be going to bed because
(32:54):
we have a busy day tomorrow, but we choose to
just do all of the fun things because maybe our
days were just fact and we feel like we haven't
had enough fun in the day. Although it feels great
to do that, but then remind yourself about how you
will feel in the morning when you're not getting enough sleep. Now,
(33:14):
I know a lot of these parameters just sounds super strict, right,
because people are like, well, I'm an adult, I should
be able to go to bed whenever I want. Yes,
you should, so you can give yourself one or two
cheat days. Give yourself one or two cheat days where
you're like, you know what, on Tuesday and on Thursday,
I'm going to go to bed whenever I want. But
in all the other days I will follow my strict
(33:35):
bedtime routine because I often say that our bodies are
like machines, and they like predictability, and they like structure,
and they just like the same old, same old, boring lifestyle.
It's boring to have a bedtime, and it's not huge.
Nobody wants to say I have a bedtime. But give
yourself one or two cheat days to stay up till
whenever you want. But the other five days of the week,
(33:57):
you got to be really good about your sleeps so
that your body isn't confused, because the body often will
get confused. M hmmm. You know, I can't believe I
didn't ask you this question, But how much sleep should
we be getting? Like how much on average and an
adult beginning? So the golden number is actually seven hours. However, however,
(34:19):
I know I'm always like, I'm a woman of science,
and then sometimes I would say those seven to nine hours,
because most people do not feel refreshed after seven hours
of sleep. So I think this should be on a
case by case individual basis. If you tend to get
seven hours of sleep and you wake up and you
(34:39):
feel just great, then great, continue with your seven hours.
But if you feel like seven hours aren't enough, then
go up to eight. If eight isn't enough, then go
up to nine. Some people even need closer to ten.
Whatever works for your body. Mm hmmmm. So I know
e being that you are not um a physician, you
do not prescribe any medication, but I would just love
to hear your thoughts because I'm sure you have to
(35:00):
come in maybe using things like platonin or over the
counter sleep aids. Can you talk a little bit about
like when maybe people should consider those or why maybe
they should stay away from that, and when maybe they
would want to talk with the psychiatrist or their primary
care physician about like a sleepaide that is prescribed. Okay, Personally,
I am not a fan of sleep aids because I
(35:23):
believe that our bodies are wired to sleep, and if
we do all of the right things, our bodies will
naturally just heal and be able to sleep. However, though,
if your doctor has ruled out all the physical things
and if we've tried all of the holistic things and
the cbt s and the dbt s and the relaxations
(35:43):
and all the sleep hygiene and it's still not working,
then I would say, you know, go to your physician
and definitely get a prescription. However, though, a word about
those sleeping pills is that they don't actually cure insomnia,
because in my mind, it here means you're not gonna
need to sleep aid anymore. Your body wouldn't be doing
what it's supposed to be doing, and then it will
(36:05):
just go away. And for a lot of people it
creates dependency, and there's a lot of side effects and
the headaches and feeling like a zombie and grogginess and
poor concentration forgetfulness. So a lot of people just have
really bad side effects, even from melotonin, which really surprises
me because melatonin is over the counter, but a lot
(36:27):
of people just have, you know, bad side effects from it.
But if you've tried all of the things and nothing
is working, then I'd much rather you, of course take
a prescription and get the sleep that you deserve than
just suffer through. Mm hmmm. That's an important note. So
you've already talked about a couple of things, having sheets
(36:48):
that are not scratchy, and you know those kinds of things.
Maybe smells that are comforting to you and induce sleep.
Are there other things that you have suggested as the
clients or that clients have said, oh this really helped me,
that we've I want to consider adding to our sleep hygiene.
So a lot of clients really focus on their thoughts
around sleep and their fears around sleep because for a
(37:11):
lot of clients, they feel like their bodies have betrayed them.
So a lot of my work is helping them understand
that your body is your friend. And I think that
has been the biggest light bulb for most of my
clients is my body is actually trying to help me.
I said, yes, your body wants to sleep, your body
craves sleep right and letting them know that you are
(37:31):
your own sleep expert, and that is the most important thing,
is realizing listen to your body. If your doctor puts
you on a pill and it's not working for you,
let your doctor no, it's not working. If somebody is
telling you should only be sleeping eight hours, but you
feel like nine hours is more like it, and sleep
for nine hours. I know I talk about naps, but
if you're napping every single day and it's not impacting
(37:53):
you at night, then keep napping every single day. You know,
if you're sleeping six hours and it seems to work
for you, then it's fine. So listen to your body.
That is the biggest thing is I say, I'm going
to hear to guide you. I don't know your body
as well as you know your body. Right, if you
take melatonin every single night and it seems to work, well,
you don't get headaches, you're not groggy, it feels good.
(38:15):
Do what works for you. So know your body. Listen
to your body and focus on those thoughts about sleep
and that fear about sleep. A lot of it is
really you know, the mental the I cannot sleep, I'm
not good at sleeping. My body is betraying me. My
body will never sleep, my body will never shut down,
and trying to combat those thoughts with my body does
(38:38):
know how to sleep, and it's going to sleep again,
because again, those negative thoughts trigger stress, and our bodies
have a hard time shutting down when they're under stress.
So you know, something that just came to mind is
you know, if you are sleeping with someone right, like
maybe a partner or other kids. If you're having sleep problems,
(38:59):
then is likely that their sleep is also being invetive.
It's I wonder if there are things that you can
suggest about, like how we might help a loved one
who might be struggling with sleep issues. Are there things
we can do to help? Oh? Yes, Oh absolutely so.
If you're sharing a bed with someone, let them know
that you're struggling, and let them know that you're trying
to create this new structure. Because for a lot of clients,
(39:21):
they'll say, my partners in the bed and they have
YouTube on and it's loud, or my partners in the
bed and they're just real sweaty and all that, or
it's just really hot in here and I'm uncomfortable. So
starting to have those conversations around what you need for sleep,
like these sheets are not working for me anymore? Can
we try something else? Or you coming into the room
(39:42):
in and out at two am and three am and
odd hours isn't working for me anymore. Can we meet
in the middle. I need quiet time from this time
to this time. Is that something that you can do?
Or can you put headphones on when you're listening to YouTube,
or can you make sure that the TV in the
bedroom is off and you watch a on your phone
or something. So having those conversations around what you need
(40:04):
and helping them understand the emotional impact of insomnia, because
if you have never struggled with insomnia, it's really hard
to understand the emotional and physical toll that it takes.
So just opening those lines of conversation so that they
can cater to you and your needs. Thank you for that.
(40:25):
So are there other resources that you typically share with
clients or things that are kind of go to us
for you to help people kind of learn some of
this stuff. Yes, yes, yes, YouTube is a big one.
There are like a million relaxation videos on there. There
are million body scans. I'm a fan of deep breathing
and body scans and relaxation. Some of my clients love
(40:48):
a s MR slicely just go on YouTube and just
type it a s MR and just pick the one
that you like. Go on YouTube and go to guided meditation,
go on YouTube and look up yoga. So they are
finding resources that works well for them. And usually most
of my clients will just pick the one and they
do that every single nine. I'm like, if it works
(41:10):
for you, keep doing it. I think that is super important.
So YouTube. I also love the calm app. That's a
big one, and I love Headspace as well. But I'm
a big fan of YouTube because it's free. You don't
have to subscribe to anything, you don't have to pay anything.
It's right there at your fingertips. Perfect. We'll be sure
to include those in the show notes. So tell us
where we can find you. What is your website as
(41:32):
well as any social media handles you'd like to share.
So my website is the Zennia Practice dot com and
I'm on Facebook and Instagram at the Zenia Practice as well.
In Zenia z I N N I A. And no,
my name is not Zennia because people call me Zennia
all the time. So yeah, that's how you can find me. Perfect. Well,
(41:55):
we really appreciate you sharing all this helpful information to
help us get a little bit better at sleep being.
I thank you. It was really great to be here
with you. I'm so glad that was able to share
her expertise with us today. To learn more about her
and her work, visit the show notes that Therapy for
Black Girls dot com slash session two to five, and
(42:16):
don't forget to text two of your girls and tell
them to check out the episode as well. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to
check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls
dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue
digging into this topic or just be in community with
other sisters, come on over and join us in the
Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet design
(42:38):
just for black women. You can join us at community
dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank y'all so
much for joining me again this week. I look forward
to continue in this conversation with you all real soon.
Take it care
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.