September 17, 2025 • 28 mins
Tired of building your business or career for the "fantasy version" of yourself?
You're not alone. Many of us leave corporate environments that don't fit our neurodivergent, introverted, or strategically-wired brains, only to recreate the same extractive patterns in our own businesses. But what if there was another way?
In this episode, I sit down with Maggie Patterson, creator of BS-Free Business and author of "Staying Solo," to explore why so much business advice isn't designed for businesses like yours. We dive into Maggie's "real-life rule" — if it doesn't work for your real life (with all your caregiving responsibilities, mental health considerations, and actual capacity constraints), it doesn't work in your business.
Discover why being strategically wired can be a detriment as an employee but an asset as a solo business owner, learn how to build around your actual capacity instead of your maximum capacity, and find out why the best work you'll do might just be the work that feels easy.
Episode Highlights:
- Why so much small business advice recreates the same toxic patterns we tried to leave behind in corporate life
- How manipulative marketing tactics—like income claims and pain-point selling—harm solo business owners
- Why neurodivergent and introverted people often thrive as entrepreneurs after struggling in traditional workplaces
- The “real-life rule”: building your business around actual capacity, not fantasy capacity
- How being strategically wired can feel like a liability in corporate life but becomes a superpower in solo business
- Why the most sustainable businesses are often the simplest—lean, drama-free, and built to last
Key Concepts Explored:
- The "real-life rule": building business around actual capacity and constraints rather than fantasy versions of ourselves
- The neurodivergent advantage in solo business: creating accommodations for yourself that corporate environments can't provide
- Strategic brain blindness: how strategically-wired people undervalue their most marketable assets
- The employee detriment of strategic thinking: why strategic minds struggle in corporate but thrive as entrepreneurs
- The paradox of easy work: why the highest-value, most enjoyable work should feel effortless when you're truly skilled
- Income claim marketing and pain point manipulation vs. empathetic connection in business communication
- Lesser of evils decision-making: sustainable business choices for people with anxiety, ADHD, and mental health challenges
- Simplicity as competitive advantage: lean operations, minimal services, and building incrementally rather than perfectly
- Right-sizing dreams and expectations to prevent business-induced breakdown during caregiving and life challenges
- Neurodivergent entrepreneurship as affirmation: self-employment as refuge for those who don't fit traditional work culture
Common Questions Answered:
- How can I build a business that works with my ADHD/anxiety/neurodivergence?
- Why do I struggle with traditional business advice?
- Is self-employment viable for introverts and strategic thinkers?
- How do I build for my real capacity instead of my maximum capacity?
- Why does my strategic thinking feel undervalued in corporate environments?
Notable Quotes:
"So much of online business is built on this fantasy version of yourself—someone with endless time, endless energy, endless capacity. And it just doesn’t exist." – Maggie Patterson [00:05:00]
"We left corporate because it didn’t fit—but then we build businesses that are just as extractive, just as harmful, just as unsustainable." – Maggie Patterson [00:07:00]
"If it doesn’t work in your real life—with your caregiving, your...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to Thinkydoers.
I'm Sara Lobkovich, strategyfacilitator and OKR expert, and I'm
here for the strategic thinkers, thebehind-the-scenes force multipliers,
and anyone who's ever felt like a squarepeg in traditional business culture.
If you're wired for change butsometimes struggle with organizational
(00:24):
friction, moving goalposts, or feelinglike you're speaking a different
language than your leaders andcolleagues, you are in the right place.
Here we explore how to move frominsight to impact, turning your
strategic vision into undeniableoutcomes that actually matter.
Now, earlier this year I made a new friendonline over our mutual use of the term
(00:48):
BS in our branding — me with my No-BSOKRs and her with her BS-free Business.
My guest this week is Maggie Patterson,creator of the BS-free Business.
Maggie's also the author of one of myfavorite books of the year, which I
really need to do a book bundle with— Staying Solo: Your Guide to Building a
(01:09):
Simple and Sustainable Service Business.
Maggie's a business consultantwho's been working in online
business for over 20 years.
She works primarily with micro businesses,helping solo entrepreneurs build,
sustainable drama-free operations.
What really drew me to Maggie'swork is her concept of staying
small and sustainably small.
(01:31):
So many of us left corporate becauseit didn't work for us, and then
wind up struggling to figure outwhat does in our own businesses.
If you struggle in corporate culturebecause you're neurodivergent,
introverted, or strategically wired,you are of course in the right place.
And if you've wondered whetherself-employment could actually be a viable
path, or if you're tired of businessadvice that tells you to build for
(01:54):
your fantasy self instead of your realcapacity, this episode is just for you.
We explore why so much businessadvice is designed for businesses
that aren't like yours.
We talk about building a business aroundyour actual capacity instead of your
maximum capacity, and we dive deepinto why being strategically wired can
(02:15):
actually be a detriment as an employee,but an asset as a solo business owner.
That reframe alone might change howyou think about your career path.
So let's get into the episode.
Alright folks, I want to welcomeMaggie Patterson to the show today.
Maggie and I met online because weboth released books with BS in the
(02:41):
title right around the same time.
So, I'd been using No-BS OKRs andMaggie works with BS-Free Businesses.
We're gonna hear about Maggie's newbook today and why the people listening
to this podcast might wanna considerstaying solo as a career possibility.
Maggie, I'd love to haveyou introduce yourself.
(03:02):
Tell us who you are and what you do.
I'm Maggie Patterson.
I'm the creator of BS-Free Business,and I'm a business consultant.
I work primarily with microbusinesses — solo business owners,
micro business owners, micro agencyowners, and really helping them build
a business that works for their lifeand really is a place that is free
of drama and needless complication.
(03:25):
Like, how can we make this as simpleand sustainable and boring as possible?
I love every time you talk aboutboring business, my eyes light up.
You've not just been in business, and I'mthe same age so I'm not calling you old.
You haven't just been in businessfor 20 years, you've been in
online business for 20 years.
(03:46):
Tell me a little bit about how you woundup working in online business 20 years
ago, and what's kept you working online?
Yeah.
What's really interesting is I had a verykind of traditional career trajectory.
I worked in corporate, worked inagency, I've always worked in the tech
industry and I started freelancing.
While it technically wasn't onlinebusiness at the time, I was the
(04:07):
person for so many of my clientssetting up their first blogs, helping
them figure out how to do emailmarketing, all those types of things.
So I really consider myself an "oldon the internet," because I was in
those first conversations about, "Whatare we gonna do about search engine
optimization?" And since then, I'vepivoted from doing more writing and
content work to more business consulting.
(04:29):
But over that 20-plus years ofbeing self-employed, I've seen
a lot of things come and go.
I've seen a lot of thingspronounced dead that were not dead.
I continue to see an abundance of badbusiness advice, which I am really on
a mission to help people get rid of.
And help people understand thatself-employment is a very viable
path, and it doesn't have tolook like building a huge team.
(04:50):
It doesn't have to look like anythingother than what is going to work for you
as the complex, wonderful human you are.
So let's break it down into two pieces,because you mentioned bad business
advice, and again, that was one ofthe things that drew me to you is
my own desire to find ways of doingbusiness, and especially marketing
(05:11):
practices, that don't feel yucky to me.
And so let's separate that out and say: there's bad business advice out there, and (05:14):
undefined
there's bad marketing advice out there.
Let's start with bad business advice.
What are some of your bigbads when it comes to what
we hear about doing business?
So much of what we see directed atsmall businesses, what we see directed
(05:34):
at like true one- person businesses,is advice that's not designed for them.
It's advice that replicates all thetoxic patterns, all the extractive and
exploitive business practices that weall leave our previous careers for.
We don't wanna be part of that,and then we end up replicating
those things in our business.
If we have a team, we endup underpaying people.
(05:57):
We end up exploiting ourselves.
We end up starting to use thosesketchy marketing tactics because
we are on this quest for thisentrepreneurial prosperity gospel.
It's like, "Make all the money, do allthe things, I'm gonna be a big shot."
That's actually probably not why westarted the business in the first place.
But it's easy to get swept away onthat wave of bad business advice
(06:17):
and really feel like, "Well, thisis the only way to do it." And
it is not the only way to do it.
It's just the most loudest, mostobnoxious version of it, which
is in your face every day online.
So then there's the second part ofit, which is the bad marketing advice.
I have a long professional careerin marketing that has always
been focused on behavior change.
(06:38):
I just have never been wiredfor fear, uncertainty, doubt.
That's one of the things that feels yucky.
One of the things for me that I'mreally trying to extract myself from is,
how we're "supposed" to do marketing,and how to do that differently.
So tell me what you see in termsof bad business advice on the
marketing side for practitioners.
(06:59):
As someone who's grown up in marketinglike you did, I see so many of these
practices that I don't even see beingokay at a corporate level, but they're
okay in the online business worldbecause we're supposed to be scrappy
and fighting for a piece of the pie.
And that's where we get intoreally deceptive practices.
Things that are really designed totap into that fear, and uncertainty,
(07:19):
and doubt, and make people feel badabout themselves, make them feel
compelled to purchase something.
And a great example I use — there'stwo of them I always like to
refer to — income claim marketing.
It really goes with what I wastalking about a minute ago.
Like, that "you can doit" freedom message.
And what we get tied up in is doingmarketing tactics to reach this elusive
(07:42):
goal that our coach or consultant orwhoever's been luring in front of us,
when we only have a part of that story.
That is a moment in time.
Sometimes it's exaggerated, sometimesthey're fully lying to us, and it
is not attainable for everyone.
And the second one comes frommy copywriting background.
People love to talk, reallypush on those pain points.
(08:02):
And the reality is, there's been thisdebate I've seen, it was like, "Well, we
shouldn't use pain points at all." No,use pain points from a place of empathy
and connection with your audience withoutmanipulating them or feeling like they're
broken or they're bad for having them.
There's a way to acknowledgethem with radical kindness and
empathy and thoughtfulness, to belike, "Hey, if you are struggling
with this, you're not alone.
By the way, here's a potential solution."Not, "This is the only magic solution,
(08:27):
and you must pay me $10,000 for it."
Okay, fantastic.
I dove in because I'm selfish with thethings that I want to hear you talk
about, but let's lay some foundation here.
One of the reasons I wanted to haveyou on is a lot of my listeners
are probably struggling with someunhappiness in corporate roles.
I hear all the time from my people," I've always thought about starting
(08:50):
a business, but..." I even see a lotof my solo consulting friends right
now are going back to corporate,partly because of the macroeconomics
and everything we're living in.
So tell me why staying solocan be a good choice, in your
opinion, for people who are.
Introverted or frustrated with whatthey experience in corporate cultures.
(09:14):
So many of the things I struggled within corporate culture, that I see my
friends struggling with the corporateculture, probably things that you
struggle with, Sara, in corporateculture, are around leadership and
management, and being neurodivergent.
There are so many ways we canrecreate what we love about
corporate but get rid of the thingswe don't enjoy about corporate.
(09:35):
Great example is when I was early inmy career working in an agency, I used
to get in trouble all the time becauseI was thinking so hard in meetings,
and I was not "talking enough".
But when it came to creating the outputfor the client, or that one-on-one
conversation with the client, I wouldbe coming through with big insights.
But that wasn't valued as muchas my ability to, run my mouth
(09:56):
in a meeting and try to showboat.
Moving out of that, I was like, "Isthat a problem?" And I actually read
the book Quiet by Susan Cain, and I waslike, oh, this is actually an asset.
So how do I play to my strengths?
I always joke with my corporate clients,I'm like, "I just wanna go away and do
my work quietly. If you're looking forsomething else, I'm not gonna be it."
I just had a conversation with someclients about this — when you are a
(10:18):
neurodivergent, when you have differentneeds, you may not be able to get
those accommodations in the workplace,but you can make them for yourself.
I think we miss that often.
It's like, I have the agency and theability to make these choices for
myself, and really set myself up tobe successful, where I couldn't get
that in a different environment.
So, all the things we don't like aboutcorporate, maybe you can't get rid of
(10:40):
all of it, but can you get rid of someof the things that are most impactful
on your enjoyment of the work and yourstress levels on a day-to-day basis?
As a human with anxiety,it's complicated, right?
From my personal perspective, when myanxiety is at a higher level than the
kind of the usual baseline is, we're in asituation of pick the lesser of the evils.
(11:01):
And I'm gonna be honest about that.
I do live with ADHD, anxiety, anumber of mental health challenges.
So I have to decide in that moment.
I'm like, "Okay. Not marketing thebusiness or not doing things is
not an option. So what is the mostacceptable option in those seasons?"
And sometimes that is (11:18):
what is the most minimally viable version that I can
actually do based on my capacity and myemotional bandwidth at any given time?
But in a normal kind of season, I amstill trying to pick the thing that is not
gonna totally hijack my nervous system,is not gonna send me into overload.
I've had a very complexrelationship with video.
(11:40):
I'm a writer, I'm a podcaster.
I don't love doing video.
I'm considering doing a video again.
Part of that is not the actualdoing of the video, it's do I
have the capacity to manage this?
Is the potential upside going to match thepotential, downside for me, and it's like,
how do I actually make this sustainable?
And I don't think we think about thatenough when it comes to our marketing
(12:02):
and how we're running our business.
You just brought me to my nextquestion, which is one of the
things I love about your book.
Is it isn't just a case forsolo hood, like it's not just
a case for solopreneurship, forunconventional entrepreneurs like me.
It is a case for it, and it's affirmingof that choice, but you also really
(12:24):
provide pragmatic support about how.
When you are thinking about a low-energyor low-spoon or neurodivergent person,
or someone who does have good andbad mental health phases, do you have
anything to offer to people abouthow to build a business that can
(12:44):
sustain through those highs and lows?
We need to stop falling into this trapof building the business for our maximum
capacity, the fantasy version of us.
And I always joke the fantasy version ofme has not existed since the early 2000s.
That has like endless energy and itjust bouncing out of bed every day.
that's not who I am, andthat's unlikely to change.
(13:05):
So how do I build the business?
Around my actual capacity, around myactual constraints for real-life you?
I started calling this the real-liferule of my clients, because they
would have all these fantastic plans.
They would do a planning exercise, likewhat you talk about in your book, and
then they would bring it to me and I'dbe like, This is great, but is this gonna
make you feel like shit in three months?
(13:27):
Is this gonna break you?" Solike how do we adopt this?
So when I say the real-life rule,like, if it doesn't work for your
real life — for the caregiving,mental health, disabilities, any other
given condition in your life — itdoesn't work in your business.
So we need to stop designing these dreambusinesses for perfect versions of us
because we are complex, imperfect humans,who are literally in a lot of days,
(13:51):
especially in this 2025 timeline rightnow, we're just trying to get through it.
My constant pursuit is simplification inmy business, and I'm very poor at that.
I'm learning.
While you were talking, I just hadthis vision of waking up on a day
and then having more time than I doto-do list, like, actually having
(14:14):
some white space in my schedule.
I hadn't thought about it atthat level of vision before.
That if the business is right-sizedfor my life, then there would be less
that doesn't get done every day to makeme feel bad, that makes me feel bad.
And I think what you just identifiedis that is the relationship
a lot of people get into.
(14:34):
Because most people who start businesseshave visions and ambitions and big dreams.
And it's like, how do we right-sizethose dreams for what's going on?
I know when I was doing a lot ofcaregiving in one season, for my son
at one point, and then with my parentsat end of life, I had to really adjust
my expectations for my business.
And you know what?
I'm really glad I did that, becauseI came out the other side of those
(14:56):
things not completely broken.
And that's always been my goals, likelet's not have the business be the
thing that sends us over the edge.
Because at the end of the day, it is work.
I don't wanna overly putall my identity into it.
I love what I do.
I love my clients.
I love the fact that I get todo all these fun things, like go
on podcasts, and write a book.
But at the end of the day, that'snot completely who I am as a human.
(15:19):
And I like the more we can kindof separate that, the better.
Yeah.
I don't do a lot of career coaching.
There are people who are better atcareer coaching than I am, but I
do some career support work with myleader and career development folks.
And one of the things that I had to seein other people to recognize for myself
(15:40):
is that we don't have to make work hard.
In order to charge money forsomething, it doesn't have to be hard.
You can do what comes easy to you ordo more of what comes easy to you.
And we kind of take that for granted.
You know, When we're building businesses,we make them harder because work is hard.
(16:01):
So, for folks who are struggling to makethat shift of work needs to be hard or
it's only work if it's hard, do you haveanything that you use when you run into
people who are struggling with that?
Honestly, it's the real talk ofthe best work you're gonna do.
The work that is gonna be probablythe highest paying, the most
(16:22):
enjoyable for you is gonna feel easy.
And a place I see this a lot, and thiswill make you laugh, is I do talk about
this in the book, is when it comes tostrategy work, people have it so buried
in all this other work they're doing.
And it's because theyhave a strategic brain.
They're truly like that Thinkydoer youtalk about, and they don't even see it.
And I'm like, do you understandhow valuable that is and how much
(16:45):
you could be charging for that?
And they're like, but it's so easy.
And I'm like, I don't care if it's easy.
The work you're doing probablyshould feel easy at a certain point
if you're actually an expert andyou're talented and you're skilled.
So if something is constantly feelinghard, you have a package that feels
difficult, you are always in theseengagements that feel like so heavy.
There's probably some shifts you need tobe doing in the services you're offering.
(17:07):
I do a lot of strategic planningbecause guess what, when we do
StrengthsFinder, what is my number one?
Strategy.
So I lean into that kind of strategicthinking with clients versus being the
nuts and bolts of "here's you're howyou're gonna do everything step by step."
I'm your big picture, and then I'm gonnahelp you drill through the tactics.
But I'm not gonna be your tactician.
I'm never gonna be that person.
(17:28):
I am really glad that youbrought this up because that
has been a theme in my career.
Part of what kept me an employeefor so long was that organizational
preference toward tactical work.
When I Painfully a strategist.
my top themes are all strategic themes.
So I think it's doubly challenging.
(17:50):
And I also came from agencies, andso what I heard over and over is,
"People don't pay for strategy." Andyour business, my business, there are
lots of businesses that are walking,talking proof that's not true.
But when you are someone whohas struggled in employment
because of a strategic wiring.
Do you have any advice or supportthat you would lend to people if
(18:14):
they're making that possible step toentrepreneurship or solo entrepreneurship
as someone who's strategically wired?
It's a really interesting runbecause there's a lot of layers
to it, but don't lose sight of thefact that strategy is valuable.
Here's what I know as a strategist: you are probably amazing at the (18:29):
undefined
tactics, but you can do the strategylevel that a lot of people can't.
So if you can do those two things togetherand really emphasize the strategy,
that is gonna help differentiate you.
I cannot tell you how many timesover the years I have been able to
pull out a big piece of someone'sservices, and all of a sudden they're
(18:52):
charging three or four times whatthey would for that, even to corporate
clients, even to small businesses.
And they're just like, that was moneyliterally sitting in my business that I
was not making because I couldn't see it.
So never sell yourself short on that.
And maybe it's gonna be taking smallstrategic steps to get yourself to a
point where you feel comfortable reallyselling strategy as a specific offer.
(19:14):
But at the end of the day, peopledon't know what they don't know,
so you may have to educate them.
But the right people — the fuck yeses, asSara said — they will pay for strategy.
Honestly, I have got to a point whereif you don't wanna pay for strategy, I
don't wanna work for you, because I don'tknow what the hell you're gonna be doing.
It's gonna be chaos.
One thing I heard there that I havealso seen, not in my business so
(19:36):
much, because I kind of started — Iknew like there was nothing else I
could do, I'm a strategist, period.
But I do see service providers who havethat tactical and strategic wiring.
You might have to do the tactic for awhile to earn the place in the market
to do less of that and do more strategy.
(19:59):
If you're feeling stuck inthe tactical work, you don't
have to stay there forever.
That's a stage in thebusiness development.
But the other thing that I thoughtof while you were talking is being
strategic is kind of a detriment asan employee, people wanted what I had.
(20:19):
When they wanted it, whenI was an employee, and then
lots of the time didn't.
and so I'd never thought about it thatway either that, maybe those of us
who are strategically wired actuallyneed to wrap our heads around the
fact that what, our strategic wiringmakes being an employee challenging.
In some ways, and organizationsthat aren't designed for strategic
(20:43):
people to succeed, need outside help.
And that's how you and I have business.
that's how we have businesses.
and so putting those puzzle piecestogether for myself makes me feel
less like there was something wrongwith me and more like I've just
found where I belong to operate.
As soon as you said the partabout the employees, I see this
a lot with corporate clients.
(21:04):
Like Sometimes we're engaged on thestrategy level and sometimes we're not.
And I can always see, like,I've got the chess pieces.
I was talking to a client thismorning and I was like, what
about this, this and this?
And they looked at me like
they hadn't even thoughtabout that part yet.
But because I'm so zoomed out andthat when you're an employee, amazing,
like you said, when they want it.
(21:26):
But you can also be the squeaky wheel,the pain in the ass, the problem child,
because you are asking the questions aboutthings that people in the C-suite don't
wanna talk about or even deal with yet.
Yeah.
So what's one piece of advice that youwish every service-based business owner
would listen to and implement right now?
(21:49):
Honestly, let it be simple.
You don't need a ton of services.
You don't need theworld's fanciest website.
You don't need 14 coaches.
Your business can run very lean.
You can keep your expenses in check andreally just build from where you are.
I feel like people wanna havethis perfect brand and perfect
website and perfect everything.
(22:11):
Like I started out with, granted it wasa different time, but I had no website.
I had nothing.
I basically was like, here's myservices and here's how much they
cost, and I did a lot of networking.
That's where I built from.
You can build things as you go.
You don't have to have everything perfect.
And just know, all those strategicfoundations like who your clients are,
(22:32):
your positioning, those packages, thoseare always gonna be changing and evolving.
I keep talking to my clients about thefact like, hey, you've been in business
for a while, the world has changed.
You've changed it's timefor you to reset this.
So.
Even if you do it all perfectly now, ayear from now, it's not gonna be perfect.
So stop trying to achieve that.
So is there anything I haven'tasked you that I should have?
(22:55):
I am just gonna say, because I know youand I both have ADHD, a lot of people
in your audience are neurodivergent.
I feel like for low energy,neurodivergent, anyone who struggles
with fitting in in a traditional workculture, owning your own business can be
one of the most affirming experiences.
(23:16):
Because you no longer haveto apologize or explain.
You get to make the rulesand make it work for you.
We don't see patterned nearly enough.
We see borough entrepreneurs.
We don't necessarily know the names ofall these people, but trust me, there
are tons of people that are like you,that are neurodivergent, that have
anxiety, that have depression, that arerunning their businesses, and it's been
(23:38):
a really positive experience for them.
And they're able to make more thanthey ever were in their corporate jobs.
I'm so glad you brought that up becausethe workplace can beat folks like us down.
For me, entrepreneurshipwas a last resort.
This sounds dramatic,but it's actually true.
I didn't feel like I could surviveanother job and needed to have some
(24:01):
agency over the conditions of my work.
I'm just really glad you bring itup because self-employment isn't
presented as a likely career path forfolks who have the characteristics
that you just described.
And it's not easy.
This is the hardest thing I've ever loved.
This in racing are thehardest things I love.
When my spouse and I sit down on thehard days, I can't think of anything
(24:25):
else that I would rather be doing.
And the mission just getsstronger the longer I do it.
All right, so where canlisteners find you, your book?
Where can they connect with yourwork if they wanna learn more?
So I have the Staying Solo podcast,which is at bsfreebusiness.com/podcast.
(24:47):
That was very hard formy brain apparently.
My website is bsfreebusiness.com.
I'm on Threads and Instagramsometimes at BS-free Business And
I also have a really fun quiz thatis about capacity and everything.
So if anyone wants to check thatout, it's at bsfreebusiness.com/quiz.
And finally, the book isat stayingsolobook.com.
(25:10):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so muchfor joining me, Maggie.
It's great to get someactual live time with you.
Yes, thanks Sara.
All right, friends, that's it.
If you found yourself nodding along toMaggie's points about strategic thinkers
struggling in corporate environments, orif her approach to building sustainable,
(25:30):
boring businesses resonates withyou, I would love to hear about it.
You can find me on most socialmedia platforms as @saralobkovich
or email me at sara@thinkydoers.com.
You will find Maggie Pattersonat bsfreebusiness.com.
She is most active on Threads andInstagram at BS-free Business.
And definitely check out her capacityquiz at bsfreebusiness.com/quiz.
(25:56):
Her book Staying Solo is available atstayingsolobook.com, and her podcast
Staying Solo has tons of practicaladvice for solo business owners.
If you have questions, suggestions,or would like to connect, you can
always find me at saralobkovich.comor on most social media platforms.
And if you haven't already,please subscribe to Thinkydoers
(26:18):
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Leave us a review and share thisepisode with your connection.
These conversations really matter,and they reach more people when
you help spread and amplify them.
Until next time.
Welcome to Thinkydoers.
I'm Sara Lobkovich, strategyfacilitator and OKR expert, and I'm
here for the strategic thinkers, thebehind-the-scenes force multipliers,
and anyone who's ever felt like a squarepeg in traditional business culture.
If you're wired for change butsometimes struggle with organizational
(00:24):
friction, moving goalposts, or feelinglike you're speaking a different
language than your leaders andcolleagues, you are in the right place.
Here we explore how to move frominsight to impact, turning your
strategic vision into undeniableoutcomes that actually matter.
Now, earlier this year I made a new friendonline over our mutual use of the term
(00:48):
BS in our branding — me with my No-BSOKRs and her with her BS-free Business.
My guest this week is Maggie Patterson,creator of the BS-free Business.
Maggie's also the author of one of myfavorite books of the year, which I
really need to do a book bundle with— Staying Solo: Your Guide to Building a
(01:09):
Simple and Sustainable Service Business.
Maggie's a business consultantwho's been working in online
business for over 20 years.
She works primarily with micro businesses,helping solo entrepreneurs build,
sustainable drama-free operations.
What really drew me to Maggie'swork is her concept of staying
small and sustainably small.
(01:31):
So many of us left corporate becauseit didn't work for us, and then
wind up struggling to figure outwhat does in our own businesses.
If you struggle in corporate culturebecause you're neurodivergent,
introverted, or strategically wired,you are of course in the right place.
And if you've wondered whetherself-employment could actually be a viable
path, or if you're tired of businessadvice that tells you to build for
(01:54):
your fantasy self instead of your realcapacity, this episode is just for you.
We explore why so much businessadvice is designed for businesses
that aren't like yours.
We talk about building a business aroundyour actual capacity instead of your
maximum capacity, and we dive deepinto why being strategically wired can
(02:15):
actually be a detriment as an employee,but an asset as a solo business owner.
That reframe alone might change howyou think about your career path.
So let's get into the episode.
Alright folks, I want to welcomeMaggie Patterson to the show today.
Maggie and I met online because weboth released books with BS in the
(02:41):
title right around the same time.
So, I'd been using No-BS OKRs andMaggie works with BS-Free Businesses.
We're gonna hear about Maggie's newbook today and why the people listening
to this podcast might wanna considerstaying solo as a career possibility.
Maggie, I'd love to haveyou introduce yourself.
(03:02):
Tell us who you are and what you do.
I'm Maggie Patterson.
I'm the creator of BS-Free Business,and I'm a business consultant.
I work primarily with microbusinesses — solo business owners,
micro business owners, micro agencyowners, and really helping them build
a business that works for their lifeand really is a place that is free
of drama and needless complication.
(03:25):
Like, how can we make this as simpleand sustainable and boring as possible?
I love every time you talk aboutboring business, my eyes light up.
You've not just been in business, and I'mthe same age so I'm not calling you old.
You haven't just been in businessfor 20 years, you've been in
online business for 20 years.
(03:46):
Tell me a little bit about how you woundup working in online business 20 years
ago, and what's kept you working online?
Yeah.
What's really interesting is I had a verykind of traditional career trajectory.
I worked in corporate, worked inagency, I've always worked in the tech
industry and I started freelancing.
While it technically wasn't onlinebusiness at the time, I was the
(04:07):
person for so many of my clientssetting up their first blogs, helping
them figure out how to do emailmarketing, all those types of things.
So I really consider myself an "oldon the internet," because I was in
those first conversations about, "Whatare we gonna do about search engine
optimization?" And since then, I'vepivoted from doing more writing and
content work to more business consulting.
(04:29):
But over that 20-plus years ofbeing self-employed, I've seen
a lot of things come and go.
I've seen a lot of thingspronounced dead that were not dead.
I continue to see an abundance of badbusiness advice, which I am really on
a mission to help people get rid of.
And help people understand thatself-employment is a very viable
path, and it doesn't have tolook like building a huge team.
(04:50):
It doesn't have to look like anythingother than what is going to work for you
as the complex, wonderful human you are.
So let's break it down into two pieces,because you mentioned bad business
advice, and again, that was one ofthe things that drew me to you is
my own desire to find ways of doingbusiness, and especially marketing
(05:11):
practices, that don't feel yucky to me.
And so let's separate that out and say: there's bad business advice out there, and (05:14):
undefined
there's bad marketing advice out there.
Let's start with bad business advice.
What are some of your bigbads when it comes to what
we hear about doing business?
So much of what we see directed atsmall businesses, what we see directed
(05:34):
at like true one- person businesses,is advice that's not designed for them.
It's advice that replicates all thetoxic patterns, all the extractive and
exploitive business practices that weall leave our previous careers for.
We don't wanna be part of that,and then we end up replicating
those things in our business.
If we have a team, we endup underpaying people.
(05:57):
We end up exploiting ourselves.
We end up starting to use thosesketchy marketing tactics because
we are on this quest for thisentrepreneurial prosperity gospel.
It's like, "Make all the money, do allthe things, I'm gonna be a big shot."
That's actually probably not why westarted the business in the first place.
But it's easy to get swept away onthat wave of bad business advice
(06:17):
and really feel like, "Well, thisis the only way to do it." And
it is not the only way to do it.
It's just the most loudest, mostobnoxious version of it, which
is in your face every day online.
So then there's the second part ofit, which is the bad marketing advice.
I have a long professional careerin marketing that has always
been focused on behavior change.
(06:38):
I just have never been wiredfor fear, uncertainty, doubt.
That's one of the things that feels yucky.
One of the things for me that I'mreally trying to extract myself from is,
how we're "supposed" to do marketing,and how to do that differently.
So tell me what you see in termsof bad business advice on the
marketing side for practitioners.
(06:59):
As someone who's grown up in marketinglike you did, I see so many of these
practices that I don't even see beingokay at a corporate level, but they're
okay in the online business worldbecause we're supposed to be scrappy
and fighting for a piece of the pie.
And that's where we get intoreally deceptive practices.
Things that are really designed totap into that fear, and uncertainty,
(07:19):
and doubt, and make people feel badabout themselves, make them feel
compelled to purchase something.
And a great example I use — there'stwo of them I always like to
refer to — income claim marketing.
It really goes with what I wastalking about a minute ago.
Like, that "you can doit" freedom message.
And what we get tied up in is doingmarketing tactics to reach this elusive
(07:42):
goal that our coach or consultant orwhoever's been luring in front of us,
when we only have a part of that story.
That is a moment in time.
Sometimes it's exaggerated, sometimesthey're fully lying to us, and it
is not attainable for everyone.
And the second one comes frommy copywriting background.
People love to talk, reallypush on those pain points.
(08:02):
And the reality is, there's been thisdebate I've seen, it was like, "Well, we
shouldn't use pain points at all." No,use pain points from a place of empathy
and connection with your audience withoutmanipulating them or feeling like they're
broken or they're bad for having them.
There's a way to acknowledgethem with radical kindness and
empathy and thoughtfulness, to belike, "Hey, if you are struggling
with this, you're not alone.
By the way, here's a potential solution."Not, "This is the only magic solution,
(08:27):
and you must pay me $10,000 for it."
Okay, fantastic.
I dove in because I'm selfish with thethings that I want to hear you talk
about, but let's lay some foundation here.
One of the reasons I wanted to haveyou on is a lot of my listeners
are probably struggling with someunhappiness in corporate roles.
I hear all the time from my people," I've always thought about starting
(08:50):
a business, but..." I even see a lotof my solo consulting friends right
now are going back to corporate,partly because of the macroeconomics
and everything we're living in.
So tell me why staying solocan be a good choice, in your
opinion, for people who are.
Introverted or frustrated with whatthey experience in corporate cultures.
(09:14):
So many of the things I struggled within corporate culture, that I see my
friends struggling with the corporateculture, probably things that you
struggle with, Sara, in corporateculture, are around leadership and
management, and being neurodivergent.
There are so many ways we canrecreate what we love about
corporate but get rid of the thingswe don't enjoy about corporate.
(09:35):
Great example is when I was early inmy career working in an agency, I used
to get in trouble all the time becauseI was thinking so hard in meetings,
and I was not "talking enough".
But when it came to creating the outputfor the client, or that one-on-one
conversation with the client, I wouldbe coming through with big insights.
But that wasn't valued as muchas my ability to, run my mouth
(09:56):
in a meeting and try to showboat.
Moving out of that, I was like, "Isthat a problem?" And I actually read
the book Quiet by Susan Cain, and I waslike, oh, this is actually an asset.
So how do I play to my strengths?
I always joke with my corporate clients,I'm like, "I just wanna go away and do
my work quietly. If you're looking forsomething else, I'm not gonna be it."
I just had a conversation with someclients about this — when you are a
(10:18):
neurodivergent, when you have differentneeds, you may not be able to get
those accommodations in the workplace,but you can make them for yourself.
I think we miss that often.
It's like, I have the agency and theability to make these choices for
myself, and really set myself up tobe successful, where I couldn't get
that in a different environment.
So, all the things we don't like aboutcorporate, maybe you can't get rid of
(10:40):
all of it, but can you get rid of someof the things that are most impactful
on your enjoyment of the work and yourstress levels on a day-to-day basis?
As a human with anxiety,it's complicated, right?
From my personal perspective, when myanxiety is at a higher level than the
kind of the usual baseline is, we're in asituation of pick the lesser of the evils.
(11:01):
And I'm gonna be honest about that.
I do live with ADHD, anxiety, anumber of mental health challenges.
So I have to decide in that moment.
I'm like, "Okay. Not marketing thebusiness or not doing things is
not an option. So what is the mostacceptable option in those seasons?"
And sometimes that is (11:18):
what is the most minimally viable version that I can
actually do based on my capacity and myemotional bandwidth at any given time?
But in a normal kind of season, I amstill trying to pick the thing that is not
gonna totally hijack my nervous system,is not gonna send me into overload.
I've had a very complexrelationship with video.
(11:40):
I'm a writer, I'm a podcaster.
I don't love doing video.
I'm considering doing a video again.
Part of that is not the actualdoing of the video, it's do I
have the capacity to manage this?
Is the potential upside going to match thepotential, downside for me, and it's like,
how do I actually make this sustainable?
And I don't think we think about thatenough when it comes to our marketing
(12:02):
and how we're running our business.
You just brought me to my nextquestion, which is one of the
things I love about your book.
Is it isn't just a case forsolo hood, like it's not just
a case for solopreneurship, forunconventional entrepreneurs like me.
It is a case for it, and it's affirmingof that choice, but you also really
(12:24):
provide pragmatic support about how.
When you are thinking about a low-energyor low-spoon or neurodivergent person,
or someone who does have good andbad mental health phases, do you have
anything to offer to people abouthow to build a business that can
(12:44):
sustain through those highs and lows?
We need to stop falling into this trapof building the business for our maximum
capacity, the fantasy version of us.
And I always joke the fantasy version ofme has not existed since the early 2000s.
That has like endless energy and itjust bouncing out of bed every day.
that's not who I am, andthat's unlikely to change.
(13:05):
So how do I build the business?
Around my actual capacity, around myactual constraints for real-life you?
I started calling this the real-liferule of my clients, because they
would have all these fantastic plans.
They would do a planning exercise, likewhat you talk about in your book, and
then they would bring it to me and I'dbe like, This is great, but is this gonna
make you feel like shit in three months?
(13:27):
Is this gonna break you?" Solike how do we adopt this?
So when I say the real-life rule,like, if it doesn't work for your
real life — for the caregiving,mental health, disabilities, any other
given condition in your life — itdoesn't work in your business.
So we need to stop designing these dreambusinesses for perfect versions of us
because we are complex, imperfect humans,who are literally in a lot of days,
(13:51):
especially in this 2025 timeline rightnow, we're just trying to get through it.
My constant pursuit is simplification inmy business, and I'm very poor at that.
I'm learning.
While you were talking, I just hadthis vision of waking up on a day
and then having more time than I doto-do list, like, actually having
(14:14):
some white space in my schedule.
I hadn't thought about it atthat level of vision before.
That if the business is right-sizedfor my life, then there would be less
that doesn't get done every day to makeme feel bad, that makes me feel bad.
And I think what you just identifiedis that is the relationship
a lot of people get into.
(14:34):
Because most people who start businesseshave visions and ambitions and big dreams.
And it's like, how do we right-sizethose dreams for what's going on?
I know when I was doing a lot ofcaregiving in one season, for my son
at one point, and then with my parentsat end of life, I had to really adjust
my expectations for my business.
And you know what?
I'm really glad I did that, becauseI came out the other side of those
(14:56):
things not completely broken.
And that's always been my goals, likelet's not have the business be the
thing that sends us over the edge.
Because at the end of the day, it is work.
I don't wanna overly putall my identity into it.
I love what I do.
I love my clients.
I love the fact that I get todo all these fun things, like go
on podcasts, and write a book.
But at the end of the day, that'snot completely who I am as a human.
(15:19):
And I like the more we can kindof separate that, the better.
Yeah.
I don't do a lot of career coaching.
There are people who are better atcareer coaching than I am, but I
do some career support work with myleader and career development folks.
And one of the things that I had to seein other people to recognize for myself
(15:40):
is that we don't have to make work hard.
In order to charge money forsomething, it doesn't have to be hard.
You can do what comes easy to you ordo more of what comes easy to you.
And we kind of take that for granted.
You know, When we're building businesses,we make them harder because work is hard.
(16:01):
So, for folks who are struggling to makethat shift of work needs to be hard or
it's only work if it's hard, do you haveanything that you use when you run into
people who are struggling with that?
Honestly, it's the real talk ofthe best work you're gonna do.
The work that is gonna be probablythe highest paying, the most
(16:22):
enjoyable for you is gonna feel easy.
And a place I see this a lot, and thiswill make you laugh, is I do talk about
this in the book, is when it comes tostrategy work, people have it so buried
in all this other work they're doing.
And it's because theyhave a strategic brain.
They're truly like that Thinkydoer youtalk about, and they don't even see it.
And I'm like, do you understandhow valuable that is and how much
(16:45):
you could be charging for that?
And they're like, but it's so easy.
And I'm like, I don't care if it's easy.
The work you're doing probablyshould feel easy at a certain point
if you're actually an expert andyou're talented and you're skilled.
So if something is constantly feelinghard, you have a package that feels
difficult, you are always in theseengagements that feel like so heavy.
There's probably some shifts you need tobe doing in the services you're offering.
(17:07):
I do a lot of strategic planningbecause guess what, when we do
StrengthsFinder, what is my number one?
Strategy.
So I lean into that kind of strategicthinking with clients versus being the
nuts and bolts of "here's you're howyou're gonna do everything step by step."
I'm your big picture, and then I'm gonnahelp you drill through the tactics.
But I'm not gonna be your tactician.
I'm never gonna be that person.
(17:28):
I am really glad that youbrought this up because that
has been a theme in my career.
Part of what kept me an employeefor so long was that organizational
preference toward tactical work.
When I Painfully a strategist.
my top themes are all strategic themes.
So I think it's doubly challenging.
(17:50):
And I also came from agencies, andso what I heard over and over is,
"People don't pay for strategy." Andyour business, my business, there are
lots of businesses that are walking,talking proof that's not true.
But when you are someone whohas struggled in employment
because of a strategic wiring.
Do you have any advice or supportthat you would lend to people if
(18:14):
they're making that possible step toentrepreneurship or solo entrepreneurship
as someone who's strategically wired?
It's a really interesting runbecause there's a lot of layers
to it, but don't lose sight of thefact that strategy is valuable.
Here's what I know as a strategist: you are probably amazing at the (18:29):
undefined
tactics, but you can do the strategylevel that a lot of people can't.
So if you can do those two things togetherand really emphasize the strategy,
that is gonna help differentiate you.
I cannot tell you how many timesover the years I have been able to
pull out a big piece of someone'sservices, and all of a sudden they're
(18:52):
charging three or four times whatthey would for that, even to corporate
clients, even to small businesses.
And they're just like, that was moneyliterally sitting in my business that I
was not making because I couldn't see it.
So never sell yourself short on that.
And maybe it's gonna be taking smallstrategic steps to get yourself to a
point where you feel comfortable reallyselling strategy as a specific offer.
(19:14):
But at the end of the day, peopledon't know what they don't know,
so you may have to educate them.
But the right people — the fuck yeses, asSara said — they will pay for strategy.
Honestly, I have got to a point whereif you don't wanna pay for strategy, I
don't wanna work for you, because I don'tknow what the hell you're gonna be doing.
It's gonna be chaos.
One thing I heard there that I havealso seen, not in my business so
(19:36):
much, because I kind of started — Iknew like there was nothing else I
could do, I'm a strategist, period.
But I do see service providers who havethat tactical and strategic wiring.
You might have to do the tactic for awhile to earn the place in the market
to do less of that and do more strategy.
(19:59):
If you're feeling stuck inthe tactical work, you don't
have to stay there forever.
That's a stage in thebusiness development.
But the other thing that I thoughtof while you were talking is being
strategic is kind of a detriment asan employee, people wanted what I had.
(20:19):
When they wanted it, whenI was an employee, and then
lots of the time didn't.
and so I'd never thought about it thatway either that, maybe those of us
who are strategically wired actuallyneed to wrap our heads around the
fact that what, our strategic wiringmakes being an employee challenging.
In some ways, and organizationsthat aren't designed for strategic
(20:43):
people to succeed, need outside help.
And that's how you and I have business.
that's how we have businesses.
and so putting those puzzle piecestogether for myself makes me feel
less like there was something wrongwith me and more like I've just
found where I belong to operate.
As soon as you said the partabout the employees, I see this
a lot with corporate clients.
(21:04):
Like Sometimes we're engaged on thestrategy level and sometimes we're not.
And I can always see, like,I've got the chess pieces.
I was talking to a client thismorning and I was like, what
about this, this and this?
And they looked at me like
they hadn't even thoughtabout that part yet.
But because I'm so zoomed out andthat when you're an employee, amazing,
like you said, when they want it.
(21:26):
But you can also be the squeaky wheel,the pain in the ass, the problem child,
because you are asking the questions aboutthings that people in the C-suite don't
wanna talk about or even deal with yet.
Yeah.
So what's one piece of advice that youwish every service-based business owner
would listen to and implement right now?
(21:49):
Honestly, let it be simple.
You don't need a ton of services.
You don't need theworld's fanciest website.
You don't need 14 coaches.
Your business can run very lean.
You can keep your expenses in check andreally just build from where you are.
I feel like people wanna havethis perfect brand and perfect
website and perfect everything.
(22:11):
Like I started out with, granted it wasa different time, but I had no website.
I had nothing.
I basically was like, here's myservices and here's how much they
cost, and I did a lot of networking.
That's where I built from.
You can build things as you go.
You don't have to have everything perfect.
And just know, all those strategicfoundations like who your clients are,
(22:32):
your positioning, those packages, thoseare always gonna be changing and evolving.
I keep talking to my clients about thefact like, hey, you've been in business
for a while, the world has changed.
You've changed it's timefor you to reset this.
So.
Even if you do it all perfectly now, ayear from now, it's not gonna be perfect.
So stop trying to achieve that.
So is there anything I haven'tasked you that I should have?
(22:55):
I am just gonna say, because I know youand I both have ADHD, a lot of people
in your audience are neurodivergent.
I feel like for low energy,neurodivergent, anyone who struggles
with fitting in in a traditional workculture, owning your own business can be
one of the most affirming experiences.
(23:16):
Because you no longer haveto apologize or explain.
You get to make the rulesand make it work for you.
We don't see patterned nearly enough.
We see borough entrepreneurs.
We don't necessarily know the names ofall these people, but trust me, there
are tons of people that are like you,that are neurodivergent, that have
anxiety, that have depression, that arerunning their businesses, and it's been
(23:38):
a really positive experience for them.
And they're able to make more thanthey ever were in their corporate jobs.
I'm so glad you brought that up becausethe workplace can beat folks like us down.
For me, entrepreneurshipwas a last resort.
This sounds dramatic,but it's actually true.
I didn't feel like I could surviveanother job and needed to have some
(24:01):
agency over the conditions of my work.
I'm just really glad you bring itup because self-employment isn't
presented as a likely career path forfolks who have the characteristics
that you just described.
And it's not easy.
This is the hardest thing I've ever loved.
This in racing are thehardest things I love.
When my spouse and I sit down on thehard days, I can't think of anything
(24:25):
else that I would rather be doing.
And the mission just getsstronger the longer I do it.
All right, so where canlisteners find you, your book?
Where can they connect with yourwork if they wanna learn more?
So I have the Staying Solo podcast,which is at bsfreebusiness.com/podcast.
(24:47):
That was very hard formy brain apparently.
My website is bsfreebusiness.com.
I'm on Threads and Instagramsometimes at BS-free Business And
I also have a really fun quiz thatis about capacity and everything.
So if anyone wants to check thatout, it's at bsfreebusiness.com/quiz.
And finally, the book isat stayingsolobook.com.
(25:10):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so muchfor joining me, Maggie.
It's great to get someactual live time with you.
Yes, thanks Sara.
All right, friends, that's it.
If you found yourself nodding along toMaggie's points about strategic thinkers
struggling in corporate environments, orif her approach to building sustainable,
(25:30):
boring businesses resonates withyou, I would love to hear about it.
You can find me on most socialmedia platforms as @saralobkovich
or email me at sara@thinkydoers.com.
You will find Maggie Pattersonat bsfreebusiness.com.
She is most active on Threads andInstagram at BS-free Business.
And definitely check out her capacityquiz at bsfreebusiness.com/quiz.
(25:56):
Her book Staying Solo is available atstayingsolobook.com, and her podcast
Staying Solo has tons of practicaladvice for solo business owners.
If you have questions, suggestions,or would like to connect, you can
always find me at saralobkovich.comor on most social media platforms.
And if you haven't already,please subscribe to Thinkydoers
(26:18):
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Leave us a review and share thisepisode with your connection.
These conversations really matter,and they reach more people when
you help spread and amplify them.
Until next time.
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