Ep 36 - Can EOS and OKRs Work Together? Bridging Vision and Execution With Expert Jessica Lee - Thinkydoers®

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.
Thinkydoers are those of us drawn todeep work, where thinking is working.
But we don't stop there.
We're compelled to move the work frominsight to idea, through the messy
middle, to find courage and confidenceto put our thoughts into action.
I'm your host, Sara Lobkovich.

(00:23):
I'm a strategy coach, a huge goal settingand attainment nerd, and board certified
health and wellness coach, working atthe overlap of work life well being.
I'm also a Thinkydoer.
I'm here to help others find moresatisfaction, less frustration, less
friction, and more flow in our work.

(00:47):
My mission is to help changemakers likeyou transform our workplaces and world.
So let's get started.
Welcome back, friends!
I am coming at you live frominside the race trailer at
CVMA down in Chuckwalla today.
So, again, a lo-fi intro for an episodethat definitely deserves better because

(01:10):
Jessica Lee, our guest, is such a pro.
But wanted to get this out to you.
And if that means a lo-fi intro,then we'll do a lo-fi intro.
Before the holidays, we dove intothe alphabet soup of goal setting.
And today, I'm really excited to share aconversation I recorded with Jessica Lee,

(01:32):
owner of Optimized Execs, who brings aunique perspective on being both an EOS
implementer, and we'll talk about whatEOS is in the episode, and an OKR coach.
If you are leading or supporting a smallor medium-sized business, or even larger,
really, there's a lot to learn here.
You're especially going to want to tunein today and give this a listen because

(01:56):
we explore how the frameworks of EOSand OKRs work together can work together
to help your organization thrive.
We will dive into everythingfrom the visionary-integrator
relationship to practical ways thesetools complement each other for
better goal setting and execution.
So let's get into the episode.

(02:16):
Jessica, I want to welcomeyou to Thinkydoers today.
So, let's have you introduceyourself to my listeners.
Who are you and what do you do?
Sure.
Thank you so much, Sara.
My name is Jessica Lee, and Iam the owner of Optimized Execs.
We are a business consulting firm thathelps CEOs of small and medium-sized

(02:37):
businesses who are feeling overwhelmedand unsure how to grow by offering some
support and some strategic solutions.
You and I connected thanks to theamazing Liz, who both of us know.
She played matchmaker— another amazingOKR professional in both of our network.
She introduced us basedon your background in EOS.

(03:01):
And so we're going to talk aboutother things today, but I'm kind
of on an acronym kick right now.
So let's start with whatEOS is and how you use it.
Absolutely.
So EOS is actually one of my favoritetools that I have in my toolbox for
helping entrepreneurs and small businessesto stabilize and turn their vision into

(03:24):
execution so that they can grow and scale.
Those who have maybe never heardof EOS, I'll just start at the top.
EOS stands for EntrepreneurialOperating System.
It was founded by Gino Wickman in 2008.
He wrote a great book.
I actually have it here if anyonehasn't read it, it's Traction.
The book was written off of Gino'sfirsthand experience as an entrepreneur,

(03:47):
weeding his way through figuring outhow to have a system to be able to
do all of the things that a businessneeds to grow during that important
phase of launching and then growing.
It's a very practical hands-on framework,perfect fit for startups, entrepreneurs,
businesses under say 400 folks.

(04:08):
I got excited about EOS whenI was the COO of a small business
that was in that exact predicament.
So we were small, but mighty and hadsome really big growth goals, but
lean in terms of leadership structureand constantly feeling unsure.
Do we have the right people?
Are we doing the right thingsand are we truly ready to grow?

(04:29):
And so that's when I first started hearingfolks in my network, that I was explaining
the challenges that we were facingto say, " Have you heard of Traction?
Have you read Traction?
Have you done EOS?
You've got to do it.
When we started talking, it was about theintersection of how might EOS and OKRs
be aligned or different or work together.

(04:50):
And since then, you'vebecome an OKR coach.
I would say you're probablya pretty good expert on that.
So for folks who are wondering, howdoes EOS and OKRs or Objectives
and Key Results, how do thosethings complement each other?
How are they different?
Tell me a little bit aboutthose two acronyms together.

(05:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
As you spoke to earlier in theconversation, I was sharing with
Liz, who we have in common, somethingthat I was running into time and
time again, as I was working withthe small business CEOs through the
EOS framework, was difficulty or painpoints related to measuring outcomes.
So EOS has what they call Rocks.

(05:32):
Quarterly Rocks.
They recommend about five thingsthat are the most important things to
focus on right now this quarter andthen measurables being how do we get
together each week and confirm thatwe're doing the things that we should be
doing to get these rocks accomplished.
And often I was being calledin as a consultant saying,
"Hey, we've implemented EOS.

(05:54):
We like EOS, but we are having ahard time and we don't know if our
people are the problem, or if weare just writing really bad goals."
And a lot of the work I was doing, or alot of the time I was spending with CEOs,
was really around taking that visionand turning it into powerful rocks or
objectives, making sure we're focusingon the right things and then measuring

(06:16):
both iteratively and at some sort ofoutcome milestone, how we've done.
And so as I was explaining what aneed there was in the EOS world for
just better coaching and advice andhelp for CEOs to really get those
rocks and measurables right, an ahamoment went on for Liz and she was
like, "I know who you have to talk to.
Have you heard of OKRs?"

(06:36):
And to keep with theacronyms, Sara, I said, "Nope.
But I know KPIs are, soKPIs, but I don't know OKRs."
So we had a chuckle and she's like,"No, go check out Sara's stuff."
I checked out yourstuff and was like, yes.
And then as you know, took your courseand just so much value in terms of
how they can intersect, because ofthe focus on aligning vision and

(06:58):
being very clear at the top about whatour vision is, and then making sure
that aligns downstream to our folks.
That's awesome.
I know your work isn'tlimited to EOS and OKRs.
Are there other methodologies that you puttogether with those two in your practice?
Yeah, that's a really good question.
what I typically do when I engage witha new potential client is I go through a

(07:23):
series of discovery questions to figureout what the right fit solution is.
That involves really taking a look atwhat's working, what's not, big picture
goals, And that's what I like about EOS.
They do challenge business ownersto look at the 10 year and then the
three year and then the one year.
Research shows that we will dramaticallyoverestimate what we think we could

(07:43):
do in a short amount of time, but wewill grossly underestimate what we
could do in a larger amount of time.
So taking time to make sure that you'rethinking big picture down the road.
And not just always lookingat what can I do this 30 days
and feeling like I missed it.
But really taking a look atthe end goals as well, or the
longer-term goals is powerful.
That's something that I reallylike about EOS and that first

(08:06):
kind of visionary piece of work.
When I work with CEOs and businessowners about defining their vision and
then what their pain points are andwhat opportunities we have to grow on,
that's a time that I then reflect on whattool or framework will best serve them.
So sometimes that's EOS, butsometimes it's not, right?
And for a variety of different reasons,and sometimes it's pieces of EOS.

(08:29):
So EOS has some great practicaltools for, you know, there's
one called the people analyzer.
That's taking the time in a spaceseparate from your goals and
objectives to think about and talkto your people and say, "Do I have
the right people in the right seats?"
And do they get it, want it,and have the capacity to do it?
And I love that about EOS becauseagain, one of the pitfalls that I find

(08:52):
when people come to me as a consultantis they say, " We're not meeting our
sales revenue goals, so I'm prettysure I just have to fire everyone."
And lumping performance in humanmotivation in with business
objectives, of that caliber isjust wrong for all the reasons you
and I have talked about before.
I love that piece of EOS and OKRs,where it takes the time to coach to

(09:13):
say, it is really important to talkabout what the business needs to do and
make that big and lofty and measure it.
But that does not mean that we tieall of our individual contributors
to, and we need to find intrinsicallymotivating ways to really motivate our
people and measure growth for them.
you mentioned the People Analyzer.
What are some of the other buildingblocks of EOS that you find

(09:35):
particularly helpful with clients?
Yeah, so I'll talk aboutthe main components.
And the first one is the VisionTraction Organizer, and that's really
about sitting down and making surethat the company, the CEO, the owner
is very clear on their vision, theircore values, and their mission.
And then not only that it's clearat the leadership level, but that

(09:56):
there is a system within the businessfor communicating that downstream.
That also involves identifyingyour key clients, your target
goals, so really figuring out howwe can take our big vision and
then boil that down into traction.
So a lot of vision exercises and then a10-year, three-year and one-year plan.
So that's a very powerfulroadblock of EOS.

(10:17):
The second one, I would say,is the rocks and measurables.
There's a lot of emphasis in the bookTraction that talks about uh, the pitfalls
for small businesses or overworkedbusiness leaders who feel like they
have to solve for everything right now,or oil the squeakiest wheel right now,
because today it's the squeakiest wheel.

(10:38):
When in reality, we should getclear on what the most important few
things are for a longer period oftime, like a quarter, and then try
very hard to stay focused on that.
And the fires will come up and peoplehave to respond to fires and business,
we all get that, but the majorityof your day, the majority of your
work, should some way be feedingthose big rocks that we agreed on.

(10:58):
And if not, then the leadership teamshould come together and have that
conversation and acknowledge that.
And then similar to OKRsObjectives, Key Results, there's
the rocks and then measurable.
So after you've identified your quarterlyrocks, you go through an exercise of:
What does that look like on a day-to-day?
If we are doing the things thatwe need to do to move this rock
forward this quarter, how can wemeasure that we're making progress?

(11:21):
how are EOS measurables and KeyResults different or similar?
So that's a good question, and the bestway that I can answer that is that in
my training on OKRs, and everything Iunderstand about OKRs, there's just a
lot more substance into the importantingredients to coming up with those

(11:43):
and making sure that we are measuringthings both iteratively, like indicators,
and then outcome-based results.
And that's really why I thinklearning and leaning into this
practice of OKRs was somethingthat I wanted to do to complement
my abilities as an EOS integrator.
I think that EOS is great about givingthe basic tools and frameworks for
a business to implement and grow.

(12:04):
But I don't know that there's enoughdeep-dive guidance given in the
framework to say, "And here's how youcould do a really bad job at setting
objectives and key results, thereare rocks and measurables, and here's
some key points for doing it well."
So it sounds like Key Resultsmight provide a little bit more
rigor —you learn my approach to KeyResults, so there's a lot of rigor

(12:28):
around my approach to Key Results.
But for EOS practitioners orconsultants who want to apply more
rigor to the measures, is that whereKey Results are potentially helpful?
Yeah, that's exactly it, Sara.
I don't think that there isa lot of guidance and even.
I've helped several companies implementtheir EOS framework, and then I serve

(12:49):
as their integrator, but I've alsoconsulted where, like I mentioned
earlier, folks have come and said, "Hey,we're doing it, but we're struggling.
Can you help?"
And that is a pitfall.
And I just don't think that there isa lot of, Really good guidance on how.
And so it's left up to, if folkswere not that great at setting goals
and objectives prior to implementingEOS, it's not going to solve that

(13:12):
or take them to the next level.
And I think it's so importantfor a variety of reasons.
But yeah, I think it's absolutely a goodidea for anyone using EOS to learn about
the focus that the OKR framework placeson doing a good job of defining the what
and the why, and then being smart andintentional about how we measure progress.

(13:32):
So earlier on, you mentioned businessleaders who get into that overwhelmed
state, or they're really focusedon having to solve for everything,
Yeah.
How do you create space for leaders whoare in that space to kind of zoom out and
see that they need to get above the firesthat they're fighting on the present day?

(13:54):
Yeah, that's great.
And I can speak specifically,to the EOS framework.
And I know we talked about a coupleof the foundational pieces or the
tools, as they call them in EOS,but another one is the L10 meeting.
So there are weekly meetings that arepretty structured in format that the
EOS framework gives you, and it reallyengages that leader or leadership

team back into (14:13):
What is our vision?
What are our top priorities?
And what are we measuring?
really good facilitator or integratorin an EOS system will make sure
that we're keeping folks on trackabout talking about those most
important five things or the rocks.
And if we're starting the meeting off ona tangent and we're in a responsive mode,

(14:35):
then that's a time that a good, strongintegrator will come in and say, "Hey,
I'm going to call time out for a second.
This sounds really important.
I want to get to it."
But they do at the end of the meeting,and it's intentional that it's at the end.
They call it IDS, Identify,Discuss and then Solve.
And so they do an IDS phase.
And so if it wasn't a planned, proactiverock that we're discussing, it's a

(14:58):
new issue or the fact that it's ahot topic and you want to put it on
the front of the agenda, where we'rehere to talk about the five most
important things that's an issue.
And maybe we need to adjust things.
That's the power that an integratorin the EOS system will bring is to be
able to say, "Hey, I'm hearing this,and I'm not ignoring it, but let's talk
about this during the IDS phase becausewe're gonna have to talk about how we

(15:18):
give this the right amount of attentionwithout distracting ourselves from
the five things that we agreed werethe most important for this quarter."
So it's cool.
I was familiar because I runinto so many methodologies.
I can't become an expert in every one, butI was familiar with the concept of rocks
and measurables, and I didn't realizethat EOS had roles and responsibilities.

(15:42):
So tell me a little bit more about theintegrator and the role of the integrator.
Yeah, absolutely.
So really, at the core of thefoundation, and in my opinion,
other colleagues share this with me.
I know a great pairing between thevisionary, Whitman refers to him as
the visionary, him or her, and that'stypically the CEO but not always, but
the visionary and then the integrator.

(16:03):
Very often the COO, which ishow I became an integrator,
but doesn't always have to be.
It's one of the few systems thatis acknowledging the kind of
push and pull that happens in anorganization because a very good,
strong visionary CEO is so important.
And we want them to be visionary.
We don't always want to spend our timebeing the COO and the operations person

(16:26):
being like, "Oh my gosh, there we arelike chasing purple squirrels again.
They need to chase purplesquirrels, at least a few of them."
And so having that duo setsyou up for that success.
We create space.
A good integrator is going tocreate space and say, " I don't
want you to not be the visionary.
I'm not going to tell you're distractingpeople by being the visionary."
A great visionary is at the coreof a lot of successful companies.

(16:48):
We are going to spend time regularly tosay, Do we agree that these are the most
important things for everybody else in thecompany to focus on for the next quarter?"
You keep dreaming big and youthink about what we're going to do.
But I want your buy-in.
And then I can help make sure that therest of the organization is marching
towards what we've agreed upon as themost important things for this quarter

(17:12):
I was just writing a response to amedia inquiry the other day about
the role of the chief of staff.
EOS might be a really helpful toolkitfor our chiefs of staff who are in
that right-hand role but who mightnot be enabled around how to do it.
I'm a stickler for shared words andmeanings, and just having something like

(17:35):
EOS, that's an established framework couldreally help leaders and chiefs of staff
improve their clarity of expectationsfor each other and negotiate what's
challenging about those integrator-like orchief-of-staff relationships with leaders.
You're 100% right.
And like you said, chief of staff,COO, integrator, really that second

(17:56):
in command or that partner that's alittle bit more operational focused,
operational minded to a visionaryCEO, really is an important dynamic.
To have a strength at thatleadership level and not have
a CEO who's feeling frustrated.
You know, CEOs call me all thetime and they say, can you coach?
I'm the problem.
Like I'm driving my people crazy.
I'm not focused.

(18:16):
Like I tell them one thing, andthen I think of four more things.
Can you help me?"
And that's, yes, I can.
And you don't have to change.
Like you can keep doing that, butyou can't do it all on your own.
And you need people to understand thatthere is a space and an importance to
what you do, and every idea doesn't needto make it down to everybody else who's
trying to focus on the last importantthing that you told them to work on.
So I agree with you ahundred percent on that.

(18:38):
And in fact, besides the book Traction,there's another book called Rocket Fuel.
It's a little smaller, shorter read,and I recommend that all the time.
Some companies are ready toroll out an operating system,
and some just aren't yet.
It takes some work and some commitment,but either way, I think there's some
fundamental pieces, like the visionaryand integrator duo relationship

(18:58):
and respecting the strengths ofeach personality type, that I think
we can pull from that framework.
and it helps empower business leaders.
That's fantastic.
Those relationships I thinkare so under served in terms of
education and business books.
And so it's great to add a couplemore resources to my " So You're

(19:18):
a Chief Of Staff Now" guide.
What is a particularly fertile ground?
What organizations would you sayshould really take a look at EOS?
Are there characteristics of anorganization or a situation that EOS
might be part of the prescription for.
Yeah, I would say it is businessesfrom anywhere from two to, I would

(19:42):
say, 250-300 employees, that arereally starting to feel like they
need help in order to grow and scale.
So they're feeling a little bitoverwhelmed by their current operations.
The CEO or leadership team isjust feeling like there are
not enough hours of the day.
They cannot do it all.
I hear that so much.
I, as an entrepreneur, I thought Icould do it all, and now I can't,

(20:06):
and I know that I need help.
Really any businessbetween two and 250 folks.
that just know that they are readyto grow and take things to the next
level, but they need that structure.
That is somebody that I always say,"Read Traction, or at least skim
through it and call me because Ithink this could be a great solution."
Awesome, Jessica.
What haven't I asked you that I should?

(20:29):
What else do you wantto get out there today?
I know we touched on a few of thecore components and tools of EOS,
but one we haven't talked aboutyet that I think is really powerful
is, um, the Accountability Chart.
So the Accountability Chart really justtakes the concept of the traditional org
chart, but it challenges business ownersto simplify it down into only a couple

(20:51):
of key buckets, like sales and marketing,operations or delivery, and then finance.
And then it has you create seats.
And so you define the seats that youneed filled, and then there's a process
for aligning to make sure you havethe right people in the right seats.
And then as you grow, um,kind of filling those seats.

(21:11):
And it's a framework that's done justa little differently because a lot of
times we try to measure people based onthis kind of nebulous job and how they're
doing it a lot of different things.
But we don't have the seat well-defined.
And so before EOS has you go in andanalyze how somebody is doing it a
role, they really challenge you tosay, "What does that seat look like?
Do you have your role well-defined?"

(21:33):
And then we can talk about havingthe right people in the right seats.
And I think that's hugefor business owners.
I think there's quite honestly,often doubt when outcomes don't
start coming in the way that we want.
When numbers aren't where we need themto be as a business leader, we start
saying, "Do I not have the right people?
Is it the people?"
And I love that EOS has a systemfor, "Why don't we take a look at

(21:54):
the structure and the seats that youneed filled to do a really good job
before we start analyzing people."
I do a lot of work on the how do we mapgoal-setting to individual evaluation
and performance pay and all that.
And it's a complicated question.
But one of the things that I strugglewith has been the relative arbitrariness

(22:16):
of evaluation based on job descriptions.
So I love that idea ofidentifying what are the core
mandatories for this seat type.
Or even, you said sales and marketing,finance, operations, like even
saying, those seat roles could bedescribed in terms of alignment to

(22:36):
those seat types or those disciplines.
So you might have someone in operationsthat needs to work on internal reputation
or someone in engineering who needsto work on developing skills to sell.
Right.
So, I don't know, am Iunderstanding that right?
That it's like there are certainkind of skills that are identified

(22:56):
that then can be aligned independentof what function someone sits in.
That's absolutely correct, Sara,and that's what I love about it,
there is focus in the framework on.
Taking a look at seats androles independently of people.
And then other tools like your PeopleAnalyzer tool, has a component where you
actually have people separate their paperinto four and, "What do you love doing?

(23:18):
What are you great at?
What do you hate doing?
What are you not good at?"
And then just filling it outand self-reflecting, instead of
saying, "This was the job, andhere's how you're measuring."
What are you going to do differently,which we know is toxic and doesn't help?
You give your people the opportunity tofill that out, and then you wanna make
sure that at least 80% of the work thatthey're doing is falling in that top tier.

(23:39):
And if it's not, and you eithertalk about, "Is this the right role?
Is there a different role?
Do we split roles up?"
There's a lot of strategic ways.
But it takes the time to say, "Findout what matters to your people."
And that's how you're going to get themost out of the people that you have.
And I think that's important,especially at the small business
stage, where sometimes we forgetto take that kind of time.

(24:00):
I'm also just hearing the importanceof shared words and meanings.
I think having a shared vocabulary andshared words and meanings within an
organization could probably alleviate 75%of conflict that happens in businesses
and challenge that happens in businesses.
So I'm really a fan of identifying anddefining words and meanings with a little

(24:23):
more rigor than most organizations do.
But I'm hearing that when you talk aboutEOS too, that there's Set of words that
can be given meaning that then helpwith shared understanding within an
organization, which is really what drewme to OKRs, but EOS gives additional tools
and frames beyond OKRs that people canalign on words and meaning for together.

(24:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
If people want to learn more about youand your work, where can they find you?
Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn.
Otherwise, you can go to mywebsite at www.optimizedexecs.com.
I think we might have to work ona little side project for chief of
staff integrators around EOS and OKRs.

(25:12):
That would be really fun.
I love it, too.
EOS does a really good job at laying outa lot of groundwork, fundamental tools.
But I find business leaders remain, inthe "help me" phase when it comes to their
goals, their measurables, their rocks.
The OKR framework is amazing asa tool for people to lean into.
Yeah, I even have a little sectionin my book if doesn't everyone

(25:33):
already know how to write goals.
It's just something that, unless you'rein strategy or behavioral sciences or
motivation science, we just don't think alot about the discipline of goal creation.
So I think it's really cool thatyou spotted that opportunity in
your EOS work to dive deeper intothe discipline of goal setting.

(25:55):
And Sara, I'll tell you one thingfrom learning from you when it
comes to Objectives and Key Resultsthat I really took away as powerful
was the actual coaching aspect.
And I know you watched that transformationfor me, but I learned so much about the
speed with which I was going throughthat portion of the EOS with CEOs.
They're like, "Oh, goals.

(26:15):
Yeah.
I wrote some down once in a while," andwe were just slapping things on paper.
You know, like I'm aproblem solver by nature.
It's hard for me to stay quiet and letsomebody else reach the answer sometimes.
And what I learned from learning how to bea good OKR coach really was to allow for
that silence and to challenge, "But why?
Tell me more about that."
And really the coaching element, and Ithink that was the biggest aha moment

(26:39):
for me and has helped me become betterin doing that piece of EOS with clients.
Awesome.
Jessica, thank you somuch for joining me today.
This was fantastic.
Thank you so much for having me, Sara.
It's been a pleasure and I'msure we'll stay in touch.
Thank you.
All right, that wraps up myconversation with Jessica Lee about EOS.

(27:01):
I want to thank Jessica for sharing herexpertise and insights with us today.
If you found value in this discussionabout practical frameworks for
business growth, you're goingto want to subscribe to my email
newsletter at ck.redcurrantco.com.
You'll get early access to new tools andresources to increase your efficiency
and effectiveness, plus practical tipsand frameworks to help you transform your

(27:24):
strategic vision into undeniable results.
So until next time, bye y'all!
All right, friends, That's it for today.
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My email addresses are too hard tospell, so visit findrc.co/contact

(27:49):
and shoot me a note that way.
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(28:11):
Your referrals, your word of mouth,and your reviews are much appreciated.
I'm looking forward to the questionsthis episode sparks for you, and I
look forward to seeing you next time.

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Ep 36 - Can EOS and OKRs Work Together? Bridging Vision and Execution With Expert Jessica Lee

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